Looks like at worst, the bet is a draw, and more likely you will win.
I won't tell any of the details here, people can go to other boards if they want to find out all of them, but basically toward the end of the show after Rachel delivered her baby girl, it appears Rachel wants to get together with Ross, while Ross is unsure what to do.
The ONLY thing that can save me is the cliffhanger, which they pulled the audience out before filming. Seeing as how Janice, (yes Maggie Wheeler is in the season finale delivering a baby herself), is the only one who knows about Ross and Rachel kissing, I can see the following scene happening...
As Joey carries Hugsy the Penguin as a gift for the baby girl, he is about to enter the delivery room where Rachel is resting when he hears Janice. Janice and Joey make some small talk about the babies, when Janice unknowingly mentions to Joey that Rachel wants to get back together with Ross. Janice is wheeled off leaving a stunned Joey standing in front of Rachel's room. After hesistating for a moment, he opens the door, and they fade to black...
Other than that, you probably win the bet.
I must admit, I would have never thought what has happened, would happen. I guess the writers must think that viewers either have short-term memories, are complete idiots, or all really wanted R&R back together.
Unfortunately for them, I think they are way off on all 3 accounts...
Well, I'm glad you mentioned it, because I didn't have the heart to tell you after how disappointed you were last week. We both know I prefer the direction they are actually going, but they didn't have to be quite so callous about it.
Or... Ross could run out on his family because the idea of getting burned by Rachel again scares him, which would mean that I couldn't legitimately claim a win. Ross being a jerk who pushes Rachel away would make this a draw.
They probably understood that some members of the audience would like to see R&J get together; in fact, they may have been counting on it for big February sweeps ratings. I do think your guesses of Option #1 and Option #2 are right on target in terms of their assumptions. They've been assuming those for a long time, and David Crane is continually surprised in interviews when logical flaws in the show are brought to his attention. His usual reaction..."Don't you have something more important to worry about?"
Now, aren't you glad I pared the bet down to only *one* essay? :-) I would never want to be responsible for you chopping off your fingers to escape the daily chore!
(Yeah, and now that I've said that, watch Joey go berserk, shave his head and move to Tibet while Ross heads off to Vermont, both because of Rachel.)
I can only think the reason they are pushing the issue is they had all this planned out before they knew there would be 9th season, so obviously they had to rush it.
Ah, but you see, Phoebe and Ross are having a scene together at the end in front of the viewing room talking about it, and Phoebe is pushing Ross to do something. It could always be Chandler and Monica with a cliffhanger, but they have already seemed to have concluded their story in that episode. That just leaves Joey by himself...
I'm also pretty much right on #3. I think there's been more than enough visual demonstration that there is as much popular support for Joey and Rachel to happen, as Ross and Rachel getting together. David Crane and Marta Kauffman must make it a point to not read reviews or ratings nowadays so as not to influence them on what their plans are for how they like the show to pan out.
They've been assuming
I'll just say one thing. In the past, several of the cliffhangers have really set up the major engine of the series for the next season.
-The Ross and Rachel cliffhanger in season 1 set up the romance for season 2.
-The Chandler and Monica romance at the end of season 4 set the drive for season 5.
-Rachel becoming pregnant in season 7 has driven the show for season 8.
I know it's looking bleak, (but that's kind of why I'm thinking they might still do it), but if they do pull a Joey cliffhanger out of this, it could turn the whole direction around in the 9th season.
Which would be more bad writing. It isn't that Joey being stunned is in and of itself a bad idea; in fact, it makes perfect sense as long as they alude to his continued disappointment in the bridging episodes. For your idea to work artistically, they really ought to make at least some mention of his feelings for Rachel every episode, or at least every other episode. Not a big thing - just a little nudge to remind us. Which I think is something you and Priya and Marita would very much have preferred to see as well. If it was isolated, Joey would suddenly be showing jealousy about her a full three months after she turned him down, without exhibiting any feeling at all in March, April and most of May. Now PLEASE don't understand me; what I mean is that they should have kept the continuity going if this was their aim, not that such continuity is artistically unfeasible. That scene should not happen in a vacuum.
see
Option #2
I think I'll agree that both camps had a healthy number of avid, intelligent and vocal supporters. Which raises the writer's big mistake; they set themselves up for a situation where they could not avoid alienating a large chunk of the audience no matter what they did. I am not sure how smart that was.
David
Crane and Kauffman do what they choose. They never even looked up when Ross' character went nuts and his approval rating hit the sewer. It took them over a year to realize Chandler and Monica had lost their season five effectiveness. (With the resulting ratings in season seven, as the Mondler show droned on and I stopped watching entirely. Apparently, I was not alone.)
No argument there. You are quite correct. If Joey's unrequited love were to be the cliffhanger, as Ross dithers, we might be seeing quite a revolution. (Which, by the way, would also soften my own view; I will support Rachel and Joey more if Ross actually turns Rachel down and makes the conscious decision to prevent her from dictating his life.) My reservation on this? Like I said, I would like to see the writers make an occasional reference to Joey's feelings in April and May if it is to be the big bombshell of the cliffhanger.
"Which would be more bad writing. It isn't that Joey being stunned is in and of itself a bad idea; in fact, it makes perfect sense as long as they alude to his continued disappointment in the bridging episodes. For your idea to work artistically, they really ought to make at least some mention of his feelings for Rachel every episode, or at least every other episode. Not a big thing - just a little nudge to remind us."
I'll go into detail at the end on why I think this is, but in order for it to be an effective cliffhanger, it needs to catch us somewhat by surprise. If they did do the "hinting of Joey's feelings" in the upcoming episodes, then people could pretty much figure out there was going to be eventual conflict when Ross and Rachel kiss, and wouldn't be shocked by the cliffhanger.
"Which I think is something you and Priya and Marita would very much have preferred to see as well."
I won't speak for Priya and Marita, but I just want to see something that doesn't insult our intelligence, by pretending something never happened.
"If it was isolated, Joey would suddenly be showing jealousy about her a full three months after she turned him down, without exhibiting any feeling at all in March, April and most of May. Now PLEASE don't understand me; what I mean is that they should have kept the continuity going if this was their aim, not that such continuity is artistically unfeasible. That scene should not happen in a vacuum."
R&R cliffhangers for the most part did take place in a vacuum, but they were still effective because the dynamic between the two characters had been established.
"No argument there. You are quite correct. If Joey's unrequited love were to be the cliffhanger, as Ross dithers, we might be seeing quite a revolution. (Which, by the way, would also soften my own view; I will support Rachel and Joey more if Ross actually turns Rachel down and makes the conscious decision to prevent her from dictating his life.) My reservation on this? Like I said, I would like to see the writers make an occasional reference to Joey's feelings in April and May if it is to be the big bombshell of the cliffhanger."
That's EXACTLY why it would be a bombshell, if they don't do any hinting of Joey's feelings in the upcoming episodes, (which we know they probably don't), then it would be a bombshell if Joey, who probably has slowly gotten over Rachel, learned that Rachel has fallen in love with someone not two months after she rejected him.
I still think Joey will be on people's minds in these upcoming episodes, because it's becoming pretty darn obvious that there wasn't any definitive closure established. So Joey being hurt by this wouldn't be something that needs some hinting a couple of episodes beforehand.
But even if they do the Joey cliffhanger, that still doesn't excuse the writers for going out of their way not to mention it in the clip show last week. That's just sad.
Please don't feel that I am being argumentative or difficult here. You have put forth a hypothesis and your reasons for supporting it. I present an alternative hypothesis. The cliffhanger will either be about R&R's relationship or about M&C's fertility. Here are my reasons.
R&R cliffhangers always grew out of events that had happened earlier in that episode, specifically involving them. Recap:
Season 1 - Rachel awaits Ross eagerly as he steps off the plane with Julie. Setup: Rachel spent the episode considering Ross as a boyfriend while Joey and Chandler convinced him to give up.
Season 3 - Ross has to choose which door. Setup: Rachel gets jealous, flirts with Ross, balds his girlfriend, and makes a pass at him.
Season 4 - Ross says "Rachel" at the altar. Setup: Rachel spends the entire episode trying to get in a position to disrupt the wedding. Once there, she decides against it - but ends up doing so by accident.
Season 5 - Ross and Rachel have a drunken wedding. Setup: Ross mistakes Rachel's naked dancing for a comeon, comes over for sex, and they get foolishly drunk while arguing about it. They spent the entire episode together. A drunken wedding in Vegas is kind of a cliche.
Season 7 - Rachel is pregnant - it turns out, with Ross' baby. Setup: They spent the entire episode trying to figure out who was pregnant.
The entire episode, in each case, built up to that climactic moment. For your scenario to work I would expect Rachel to have at least SOME contact with Joey somewhere in the episode.
However, we shall see. I could be wrong. Dueling Hypotheses.
Grin. Wanna make another bet? :-)
It was. No argument at all from me there. I'm sorry.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:jDZr8.23944$[email]...
that
And having said that, this afternoon I realized another scenario which would indeed give you the victory, grow organically out of the episode, and like all other cliffhangers, be easily identifiable as a cliffhanger by people who have never seen the show.
I am going to assume that you've read the whole spoiler, right? Well, Rachel was disenheartened when Ross talked to the nurse, saying "And so it begins." Janice tried to convince her that Ross was going to lose interest in her when he got a family of his own. Rachel has always had trust issues with Ross, and David so eloquently explained. The finale conflict could arise from this fear that Ross would leave her.
Ross makes up his mind. He goes off to get flowers and tell Rachel he wants to try again. Rachel calls Joey into her room. She reveals that she's lonely, that she was touched by the time he said he was in love with her - and then, quite suddenly, makes a pass at him. Joey has no time to react to this unexpected smooch. At this exact moment, Ross opens the door with flowers in hand and sees them.
Fade to Black
This leaves us wondering how Ross will react, what Rachel's motivation was, how Joey feels about it, and what Wise Woman Phoebe will counsel them next, as she is the only person who knows what both Ross and Rachel are thinking right now.
The only time I take issue with your opinions is when there seems to be a twinge of personal attack in it. As long as it sticks to the content of the show, I have no problem with it.
No one though could see Julie coming though.
That was a rather weak cliffhanger and predictable, which is why I didn't mention it in the previous examples.
The bigger cliffhanger that people were anxious to see resolved, IMO, is Chandler and Monica sleeping together. And that had one little scene of them together to develop it.
It was an inspired twist, however.
No, they didn't. They spent the entire episode under the assumption that Monica was pregnant, only to turn around at the end and have it be Rachel's baby.
Like all of these other episodes, there is some underlying hinting that we won't be able to pick up until we see show with our own eyes. That's the problem with spoilers, they are only the intrepretation of the person posting them. And I believe the 821-824 spoilers were all posted by rather large R&R fans, so they likely easily blow off any J&R interaction.
A cliffhanger theory proposed by someone else, suggested that since Rachel thinks Ross is no longer interested in her, when in reality he may be, she may seek solace in Joey if he came in by himself. I would be rather pissed at that development, because I hate to see Joey be used as some kind of backup. He doesn't deserve that, and neither did his feelings for her.
But seriously, I will take any other cliffhanger than that...even Ross proposing to Rachel. If they have Rachel do "Oh I can't have Ross, I'll fall back on Joey" in the final scene, I won't even watch the next season to find out what happens, because at that point I won't care since they've already reduced my favorite character on the show to be the "obstacle" to a relationship, and someone's backup. After what has happened this entire season, that would be a disgrace to end it that way.
I understand how you feel. I do think the right way to resolve that scene in September would probably be for Joey to be angry and react the way you did, for the same reason you did. (Especially after he talks to Phoebe and figures out exactly what happened.) The point, I think, would be that Rachel is in the wrong and she doesn't have the right to use men as yoyos the way she so often does. In the meantime, this would also have put Ross off.
There are some who would have suggested that Joey was already being written
to be an obstacle *if* (and only if) the writers had never intended for him
to get the girl. At the same time, if they did mean for Joey to get the
girl, then Ross turned into the obstacle to be overcome. I actually
thought that storyline was primarily about the strength of the friendship
between the two men to overcome this conflict. In which case, the *writers*
may have felt the big payoff scene was actually Ross giving Joey permission
to discuss his feelings with Rachel. This does not mean you and others
shouldn't have been pissed off at being manipulated and led on a goose
chase.
However, I do think that Janice's conversation with Rachel will have a big effect on the cliffhanger somehow. The writers structured this so that Phoebe was telling Ross to draw them together and Janice told Rachel to accept them falling apart. They were working to cross purposes and this will probably be reflected in the cliffhanger.
I think they would play it up as Ross as the hurt victim seeing this, while Joey comes off as the bad guy. This seems to be the kind of scenario that panders to the R&R fanbase. I guess they figure that once syndication becomes the primary source of revenue for this show, they need to keep that group of people happy above all else, even if the ratings on NBC suffer as a result. (Which I'm not saying they would, but if they did it wouldn't affect BKC.)
But let's look at this:
-I think few would argue Joey is probably the most popular character on the show as of right now. Turning a main character on a show, a popular one at that, into pretty much an antagonist for two characters to get back together is kind of disingenious to fans of that character. I don't think people would have thought twice if it was a guest star's character getting this kind of treatment, since we are hardly invested in them. David Crane was quoted earlier this year in the New York Times as saying they did the Joey/Rachel storyline because "the romantic storylines with outside characters just aren't as compelling enough as relationships between the 6 characters." You could intrepret that as his belief that most people still wanted to see Ross and Rachel get back together, but that Joey provided an interesting enough "challenge" to Ross for people to tune in. But I don't think that's what people got from the storyline at all.
-Ross was somewhat an antagonist to Joey in 812-816, but he had legitimate claims to be one. If they can get Joey to have legitimate claims to be an antagonist in an R&R reunion, (for example, being upset at Rachel for falling in love with someone so soon after he confessed his feelings), then I think most people would be ok with that.
But you have to wonder, why is *Phoebe* suddenly pushing Ross to get back together with Rachel? She doesn't know that they kissed, and one would think there might still be some lingering thoughts of Joey's feelings when she is doing this. But then again, these writers can never again be accused of being realistic.
I still think/hope that Janice with her patented big mouth, will let Joey in on everything without thinking anything about it, and leave us with a crushed individual and a friendship in doubt. That would be compelling enough to continue the story next season. I just hope they don't go for soapy suds and have Ross walking in on Joey and Rachel kissing. That has to be the biggest cliche for a soap opera plot.
This is exactly why I thought "what are the writers thinking!" when all this J&R stuff happened. They took an already popular character in Joey and tried to use him in a possible romantic pairing with another inside character who has a long ongoing history with another inside character in order to spike ratings. It seems to have worked the way they wanted it to but in the meantime, they have gotten themselves into a situation where they've divided the fans and risk losing a lot of them no matter what direction they take. They appear to have sold their souls to the "devil" so to speak for a quick ratings ploy. I think it was very short-sighted.
"Laurie" wrote in message news:HIls8.5800$[email]...
Anonymous wrote:
If done correctly, I'd like to hope the writers would make it clear that it is Rachel, rather than Joey, whose behavior is out of line. He would be a victim of this as much as Ross is.
-I think few would argue Joey is probably the most popular character
Hmm, I'd have guessed Rachel, actually, but Joey has a strong fan base.
Point well taken. But Joey taking over Ross' spot while Rachel's given birth to Ross' baby would have been similarly disingenious to longtime followers of R&R. As Laurie pointed out, they set up one group of fans for an inevitable fall, and it might not have been wise. I'll beat you to the punch on your next argument; you will say that it's different because R&R's support is gone and everybody loves and supports Joey. We are never going to agree on that one.
Well, think about Phoebe for a minute. She was illegitimate, unexpected, and unwanted. Her birth mother bailed immediately. Her father left before the girls were potty trained. Lily killed herself when Phoebe was fourteen. Phoebe was on the street before she finished puberty. She spent most of her adult life trying to find somebody to call family.
Emma is illegitimate and unexpected. However, there's a chance she could be loved and wanted by both birth parents. Now, how much is that going to resonate with Phoebe? Sorry, Paul, I don't think it's even remotely unbelievable for Phoebe to be more concerned about that than about Joey, who (IF the spoilers are accurate) will have shown absolutely no romantic inklings for Rachel for most of March and all of April and May. (Now, if the spoilers are incomplete and Joey thinks of Rachel often, your point becomes much stronger. ) Phoebe can be kind of callous anyway - remember, she's the one who introduced Monica to her "soulmate" and acted like Chandler was history. And these are the writers who had Rachel suggesting Joey fathered her kid. That was inexcusable. This I can see.
Paul and Laurie:
You
Remember, Laurie, these are the people who gave Ross not one but two marriages that didn't get past the altar. They make Rachel a big player in both scenarios and then have her taunt him for being divorced three times. They are *chronically* short sighted.
And I think I'm done here. There's only so much one can analyze the ramifications of an episode we haven't even seen! :-)
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:nyns8.845$[email]...
message
news:[email]...
in
Oh, I sooo agree with this. But what makes this different is that before, Ross alone was made to look the fool. It made a lot of the Ross fans upset. But now, we have a very large J&R / R&R fan base which could be alienated. Maybe the writers are too close to the forest to see the trees?
Knowing these writers, I'm sure they'll have more episodes of Joey begging for Ross's forgiveness for being human, just like he did for most of 814-816.
Among guys, Rachel is by far the most popular. But Joey is very popular as an object of attraction to female viewers, but also as a good buddy to male viewers.
Ooh, you're starting again. Please, I'm trying to keep this as cordial as possible. Don't start putting words into my mouth, because as much as you think you've surmised me, you haven't. And unless we know each other personally on a long-term basis, you won't. My opinion isn't as black and white as you'd like to think it is.
I have no way of arguing that the support for Joey is more popular than R&R. There's never been such a poll administered to the public over whether they like the ideals of a character, or that of a couple, more. There's been enough data supplied about couple comparison of Joey & Rachel vs. Ross & Rachel to come to some conclusions.
You know, you make this long, logical reason why Phoebe would be interested in this, but I think in reality they just needed Ross to talk to someone other than Rachel about her feelings for her, and if they intended Joey & Rachel to be the cliffhanger, Phoebe was conveinent. That sounds simplistic, but that's the level I'm holding the writers to now.
Given that the show will now have a baby that stays on the show attached to one of the main character's I would hope the writer's become more paternalistic. However, I'm still hoping for the Enquirer spoiler where Rachel dies during childbirth....
And an even bigger sign of the creator's flap here is how serious the whole J&R thing was to them in the first place. They claimed that the thought never even crossed their mind until a few weeks before they filmed TOW Joey Dates Rachel. And if you have seen episodes leading up to that episode, you would have thought this was something they carefully planned out and hinted at in episodes leading up to 812. If BKC didn't take Joey's feelings too seriously, chances are they probably thought the audience wouldn't either.
I think they still have a way out of this fiasco, however. Now that there is 9th season, they have to address both Ross & Rachel and Joey & Rachel storylines in that last season. If they are intent on putting R&R together in the end, they must have some serious closure on the Joey and Rachel storyline, AND allow some time for it to breathe before R&R get back together. This rapid get-together by R&R right after the dropped storyline is probably what is going to tick some viewers off come May sweeps.
this just came to me. I'm assuming that the cliffhanger is going to be another r and r one. And i'm totally for this, being a die hard r and rfan.This is my opinion on why i think the writers are having ross have misgivings about starting another relationship with rachel: Previously, rachel had all the power in the relationship. When rachel wanted ross, they were together. When she didn't, they weren't. Now, having ross indecisive about it gives him the power. So if they decide to get back together, it will not be rachel-directed. But rather, ross will be the one who decides. The cliffhanger will be whether or not ross re-loves her and wants to re-start the relationship. And of course, he will!
I just read the season finale spoiler for the first time this afternoon, and I noticed that Christina Pickles (Mrs. Geller) is guest-starring in the season finale, although there's no mention of her at all in the season finale spoiler.
Why do I get the feeling there's a LOT of material in this episode that wasn't filmed in front of the audience?
Let me guess, this is your attempt to set the example of non-sarcastic posts on this board?
And yes, there is a lot to suggest that in an effort to not reveal any pivotal plot choices out before they happen, they can and likely did shoot many scenes on a closed set. They had already experienced a problem with either the National Enquirer or the Star publishing a complete storyline of TO In Massapequa before it even hit the air.
The season finale of Friends is expected to be the top rated episode of the season in terms of episodic television. ANY pivotal details from that show, even certain scenes that could foreshadow the cliffhanger, are not going to be released to any part of the public before they happen. Count on it.
Oh...ok. Even I don't think there's enough obvious evidence right now that it "just cries out", but if you genuinely think so, then whatever floats your boat.
I just meant that the typical season finale/cliffhanger "cries out for" a lot of hush-hush secrecy. Therefore, it would be necessary to film certain scenes without a studio audience.
I was going through some of the articles of interviews with the producers that came out in late Feb./early March when Friends was just renewed for a 9th season, and I'm beginning to feel better that the cliffhanger will involve Joey and Rachel.
-I think by the time the season finale rolls around, people are going to start to believe that the producers are intent on hooking up Ross and Rachel since there will have been no mention of Joey's feelings for 6 episodes. It would be a rather significant bombshell for us to suddenly realize that Joey isn't completely over Rachel when he learns of her and Ross.
-The producers just seemed too up on the Joey/Rachel storyline in these interviews for it to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth in TOW The Tea Leaves. I would think the perfect opportunity to reestablish the storyline is in the cliffhanger so that people will be buzzing about it over the summer break.
-There really aren't any other intriguing storylines left to tell in the 9th season than this one. Do we really care about Monica being pregnant when we just went through Rachel doing it? Are Ross and Rachel going to have more off-and-on lovers' spat for the umpteenth time? Is Phoebe and Joey getting together really that intriguing to anyone? Is Rachel trying to mother a baby going to be funny, when we already seen her try it on Ben?
The simple matter is that this conflict may be the only engine left for the 9th season, at least until they start to conclude the series.
The person who wrote said spoiler also went to last year's taping apparently, and the taping last year took at least 2 hours longer than this one did...so far. Now, one can assume with the wedding scene in last year's season finale that it took a little longer to film with all of those extras there, but on average a Friends taping can take 7-9 hours. If this person was let out 2 hours earlier than last year's finale, chances are very good they still have at least a few minutes of the 22 minute episode left to film. Otherwise, they moved incredibly promptly through all of the scenes.
Now I'm sure if there's a few minutes left to be filmed, all the actors probably knew what was going to happen in the episode, unlike last year.
I'm sure you're asking: "Why would they remove the audience for at least several minutes of the episode?" Well...
1.) If there's Joey scenes remaining to be filmed, chances are they are not really comedic scenes that need an audience to laugh at if they end up relating to Rachel.
2.) If they hold out all of the Joey scenes left to be filmed, then anyone who puts out a spoiler for the show will totally be thrown off by the conclusion, which is what the producers would prefer. Notice how the National Enquirer released an entire spoiler for TO In Massapequa in their paper before the show even aired?
(Thinking) Hmm...short responses...said several times now to wait a month...
I get the feeling you want me to stop talking about it. I'm not posting this for you to respond to necessarily, but for anyone who has read the season finale spoiler.
It's fun to discuss, makes the moment that much bigger to watch.
Suggestion, not a point for contention: If you like, start a new thread. This one has had the flavor of a conversation between you and me because it was mostly just us talking about our bet for quite some time. Not many other people are talking to us about this; some folks may have tuned out. It's OK if you want to talk about it. I just don't feel I have anything new to add until we get new data. We have a rerun tonight. Mind you, I didn't get to see 812 last time around because of a Survivor conflict, so it will be new to me and I will get to see those scenes which so enchanted everybody. Should be fun.
Now, after 820, I bet the atmosphere will be much more fertile with fresh meat to chew on. No spoiler really truly communicates the implications of an episode properly.
No kidding, you haven't seen TOW Joey Dates Rachel? Well, unlike the bozos that pervade on the Angel's board, you are a fairly objective person in the whole couple war, so I'll be interested in seeing what you thought about it.
But you have to wonder why they are reruning the start of the Joey/Rachel storyline the week before they are going to try to get us all mushy over Ross & Rachel again. At least they were smart enough not to continue reruning the storyline into sweeps, otherwise that would be borderline ridiculous watching Ross/Rachel in the first half-hour, then Joey/Rachel in the second half-hour.
I don't think 820 will show us much. When out of the blue, Rachel brings up the question of them in 821, then we'll see if this is genuine or not.
Grin. There are several things that seem kind of off-kilter at Angel's, and you are right; the partisanship is so bad it even bothers me some. There are a handful of people I actually like talking to. I think a lot of those posters are VERY young.
Accident. Luck of the draw. That's the part of the show they are up to. It does make an interesting contrast. I am not surprised you noticed that.
At least they were smart enough
Yes, it would. You are right.
fresh
of
I don't think I'd agree with you that it's entirely out of the blue... I think we've already seen what is meant to be the beginning of the rekindling. But you are right; we will know much more by 821.
Looking back, it seems like Survivor 3 was the preferred choice that night.
In all honesty, forgetting about the couple shipping for a moment, 812 was a well done episode. It was a classy episode that was well acted, and it was a gem compared to some of the bombs we've been getting the last few episodes.
And not surprisingly, David Schwimmer directed the episode. He has been one of the best directors on the show, much better than Gary Halvorson for sure.
It's not about what age you are, it's about what age you ACT LIKE.
Thanks.
Maybe there is something that Ross does in 820 that will really get Rachel interested in him again. But I'm sorry, I'm not going to buy that Rachel is suddenly going to fall in love with Ross again solely because of the marriage proposal speech.