Paying off the debt

A recap for those who missed the conversations which led to this bet:

Johnson Walker and I had a bet running about the cliffhanger to the season finale. Johnson, an R&J fan, wagered that the cliffhanger would be primarily about a crisis in the Joey/Rachel friendship. I, an R&R supporter, wagered that the cliffhanger would be primarily about Ross and Rachel's attempts to consider a reconciliation.

Loser has to write an essay discussing the advantages of couplehood for the pairing that is not their preference.

Well, we were both right. I suggested it was a tie, and most of the people who helped me judge this agreed with me, except for Andre, who thought I won. There was discussion of how we could settle this; either both of us should do an essay, or neither has to.

Well, here's where it gets sticky. Johnson Walker is a no-show. Technically, I should not have to write an essay if he does not because I did not actually lose. However, Priya has offered to pay his debt for him and write the pro R&R essay. She would like me to write an essay in favor of Joey and Rachel.

In the spirit of fun, good natured entertainment, and the light-heartedness with which we all really must approach this basically very silly topic, I'm going to go ahead and write it today while I'm still on medical leave. If I wait for Priya until the end of the week I'm going to have to do it on a work day and that just won't work as well.

So, here goes.

In my recent debates with Dan Silverstein, I put forth the idea that in order for this show to end satisfactorily, old patterns of destructive behavior are going to have to be broken one way or another. No 'ship will work for Rachel, no matter whom it is with, unless that happens, and as things now stand I don't think she's going to be able to move on to another love unless she actualy stops having contact with Ross. Emily and Mona both figured out that they were inextricably entwined, and joint custody with Emma will trap them forever. If Joey and Rachel remain in New York, Joey WILL become another statistic in the R&R romantic merry-go-round.

Joey DOES have a way out of this - if he takes her away. I can envision a time when the bright lights and hefty paychecks of movie stars - which he has now become - will lure Joey to the sizzle and dazzle of California. When he goes, he could take Rachel with him, leaving Emma behind with the father who actually has a clue how to care for her. (Joey does, too, but he's going to be on the set all day.)

There, in California with Joey, Rachel can start over. The trust issues will be gone; the expectation that her lover will also be her servant will also be gone, and for the first time in her life she will be expected to treat her lover as her equal, rather than as her vassal or her meal ticket. In Hollywood, these two rather unintellectual people will be spared any challenging discussions about the Jurassic period or the importance of the opposable thumb. Rachel has never cared about any of that. She likes clothes and glamour. She will love walking on the arm of a man who is as physically attractive as she is to movie premeires and award shows. She will love the dilemma of choosing which dress to wear when Joey gets his first Oscar/Golden Globe/People's Choice/MTV Award/Whatever - and he won't have to yell at her when she's late, because as the wife of Joey Tribbiani, the cab will wait for her all night long. If and when her own clothing designs catch on, Joey's work ties might even be very good for Rachel's career. He will introduce her to the right people, help set up the right work deals, and her Friends back in New York might eventually get to see her designs on a movie or television screen.

Joey and Rachel have complimentary careers. Ross and Rachel have nothing whatsoever to offer each other professionally. That is absolutely true.

Joey and Rachel are not particularly bright people, and she will never be able to understand Ross' greatest intellectual passions or appreciate what he's talking about. Possibly he needs a wife who is a little less shallow and superficial, and with Rachel on the other side of the continent, he might be free to go find Mona - or even Julie.. Joey, on the other hand, will never have a conversation Rachel can't understand as well or better than he does. She will enjoy being the Smarter Half.

I am quite prepared to believe that Joey will settle down and be a good husband to Rachel. As long as his career goes well and he is in the money, he will never have an reason for insecurity about her. He is, as I have often said, the most emotionally healthy of all the Friends, and I think he will be faithful and loving to her. He may also help her break some bad habits; Joey is attractive, charming, kind and appealing, even if he's as bright as a bucket. If Rachel does something to manipulate him or hurt him she's going to have to apologize when he figures it out. He can do better, and he knows it. She's not his most attractive possible option, especially in Hollywood. She won't be able to walk all over him the way she did Ross. He won't stand for it. That will force her to grow up - well, I hope so, I'm supposed to be putting a good spin on this - and treat him with respect, dignity and the devotion he is due. Even if he screws up, Rachel will have to accept that he is precious, and learn how to forgive. No bullcrap18 page letters this time. Joey will walk away if she does that. If she wants him, she must treasure him. I am going to assume that her rate of personal growth rivals that which we witnessed in New York, and she's eventually able to accept this.

And therapy is very common in Tinsel Town. I hope Joey's movie career gives her the monetary resources to afford the very best.

For what it's worth, I think Joey believes in the nuclear family, and as long as life with Rachel is bearable, he will never, ever leave her. If she bears him an absolutely breathtaking child, that will become even more certain. She'll have a nanny to help instruct her on the difference between a crib and a bassinet.

One may make a strong and coherent argument that Barbie really ought to be
with Ken, not Bill Nye the Science Guy.   "Ken" is a good man.  I like him.
I think he could become our Petruchio, able to tame The Shrew by being a
better, kinder, more secure Big Man on Campus than Rachel is Head
Cheerleader.  He outperforms Rachel at her own strengths.  His charm is more
genuine, his courage as pronounced, his kindness more sincere, his success
more hard-won, and he's quite as much a looker as she is.  Joey has the
superficial attributes which Rachel prizes most, but he's also got a much
firmer core than she does.   This could work.

You will notice that I made her pay a very high price for this glamorous and happy resolution. I think she's created for herself a vicious cycle which she can break only by running away from it (which is what this scenario represents) or by facing the consequences of HER ACTIONS. Which she has never, ever done. One way or another, Rachel's got to take stock of her life and admit the things she's done to create her own little hell instead of blaming everybody else all the time. I give her Joey, and I let her be happy.

But Emma stays with Ross, because he's actually a fit parent right now, and she is not.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:Yw9G8.1203$[email]...

the

people

Nah, what I meant was that the cliffhanger was neither here nor there, but since both Ross and Rachel seem to consider reconciliation, it is closer to what you said.

However since Rachel doesn't know that Ross seems to have second thoughts about "going down that road", and Ross not knowing that Rachel ponders if they are already on that road ("we had this kiss before I went into labour, maybe it's the beginning of something") and with Joey's accidental proposal, which hardly is a crisis, I agree that it is a classic tie.

Also I think we should be careful with what we say about Paul. I don't think he's the kind of guy to disappear all of a sudden. Maybe his computer is broke or something along those lines, which prevents him from coming here.

Andr�

I though the bet was you had to write an essay arguing in favor of a relationship between Joey and Rachel. Your revulsion of the relationship between Rachel and Joey is clearly evident in every sentence you wrote. I was looking forward to reading a critical thought out essay. However, it appears you are wrapped much to tight in your personal preference for a Ross and Rachel relationship to do this. I am very sorry I wasted time reading this essay in which you belittle both Rachel and Joey in addition to saying Rachel is an unfit mother. You have no evidence what so ever about what kind of parent Rachel is.

Katie

and

and

"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:xghG8.1687$[email]...

to

Well, I certainly belittled Rachel.  I said several kind things about Joey,
all of which I can say with conviction; the only bad thing I said was that
he wasn't very bright.  Face it, that's been the cliche' shtick on him for
years.   I did highlight that their professional goals are more
complementary to each other, that they are more intellectually compatible,
and that since he's emotionally healthy and has good self-respect, he will
demand that she treat him as well as she wishes to be treated herself. If
she does, she will grow up and their marriage will be successful.   That's
the good I can see coming out of this.

My assignment was to discuss the advantages I saw in a pairing between Joey and Rachel - and remember, I didn't actually lose the bet. I didn't have to do this at all; I volunteered to because people asked me to. I am sorry I disappointed you, but I'm not going to say things I don't actually think are true. I told you the advantages *I* saw; I think you wanted me to reflect the advantages *you* saw. But in that case, you want me to either parrot your views or just flat-out lie. Possibly you would express it by saying that you wanted me to be honest and objective for a change; however, it has been my experience that nearly everybody with really strong opinions think they are right and wish other people would be objective and honest enough to see the error of their ways! And that includes most people on this newsgroup!

This is why I don't frequent the political newsgroups; at least in this forum, we aren't talking about anything that really affects anybody's life or matters worth a squat! Now the political newsgroups, that's where it really gets scary. I absolutely do not understand what horrors, crimes and injustices some people are able to justify for their own self-interest.

I think that's probably what has really ticked you off. I'll be honest with you, Katie; in writing my scenario, I deliberately removed from the equation the two elements which bother me most about a Joey/Rachel pairing:

• Ross as a second string dad yet again

2. The nervous idea that R&R will continue to roll over innocent third parties (including poor Joey) every year or so if they stay in close enough contact without working out their differences.

My perception of Rachel is that she's extremely egocentric and we saw a recent episode in which her complete inability to care for a child in any way was the primary joke. We know that Ross has done this before successfully. Therefore, in my mind if one of them should get custody of Emma, it ought to be him, especially if they must be physically separated.

Remember this, Katie.

I'm talking about a fictional character I happen to dislike. It's just my opinion. Some people agree with me, some think I'm a little over the top (which may be true, but since it's a sitcom, I don't care) and some think I'm way out of line. Well, I think some people are way out of line about Ross, too, but in the end, it really doesn't matter. Al Queda and the Kyoto Emissions Treaty - those things matter. Write your congressman. I do.

Just recognize that my refusal to see the Friends world as you do does not reflect on my worth as a person or on yours. If I identified a little bit more with Rachel I might be easier on her. She pushes my buttons; my buttons are not the same as yours.

You can make me the essayist you love to hate. You can ignore me completely. You can analyze my discussion and try to pick out the good arguments from the places where bias keeps me from accurately deciphering the writer's intention. (That's certainly happened enough times, especially in season five!) In the end, that is what we are doing; trying to decipher what the writers intended to communicate to us and make judgements as to what direction they will or should go next. Since I genuinely don't believe the writers intend for us to regard Joey and Rachel as the couple which is meant to be together, I cannot splice together the picture *you* are seeing in your mind and claim it as my own. I can only tell you what I see they have in common - and while I think they are Ken and Barbie, Ken really is a genuinely charming, good natured guy who will be a good husband. Barbie will have to grow to deserve him.

Joey

to

I

are

has

to

My apologies for mistakenly giving you the immpression I wanted you to lie and reflect my views. I was always taught academically that a critical analysis does not reflect our personal feelings on the subject. It is entirely objective.

Ross has never been a sucessful parent. He has been a sucessful absent parent. Meaning he has done a very good job of being a parent who does not live in the home of the child. There is a big difference in raising a child 24 hours a day 7 days a week and in handling the difficulties that come up during visitation. Secondly, numerous episodes have dealt with the personality of Mental Gellar who is not someone I would prefer to be responsible for a baby. Thirdly, there is a very important and sensative time in a young girl's life when she matures and begins having periods. Do you think Ross has significant understanding of this subject? Sure he can read up on it, but there is a big difference in book facts and actually experiencing it. I am a single parent with a 13 year old son I am finding puberty to be a very difficult subject to discuss and I would expect it to be just as difficult for a fictional character.

I have not seen an episode that shows Rachel's complete inability to care for a child. I have seen episodes where the primary joke has been about Rachel's lack of knowledge on how to care for a child. Two vastly different things. You learn as you go with babies. I believe people tend to treat people the way they want to be treated. Therefore being egocentric Rachel would treat the baby as if it was the center of the world. This would put the proper priority on the child. Rachel has never been a parent before. To declare her a unfit mother is very unfair. I suggest you not condem her before we see what type of mother she becomes.

You would be surprised at the horrendous things parents get away with in real life without the court being able to label them unfit.

bit

I sincerely apologize if anything I have wrote on or off this list has ever implied, to anyone, that I am personally judging them. It is not my place to judge another person and certainly not from the evidence of a few scattered emails. My judgement was of your essay that was clearly not objective and did in fact reflect your personal views of the characters.

Katie

"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:PwkG8.25327

Oh, that's understood - but in that case, almost nothing ever written on this newsgroup is ever a true critical analysis, no matter who writes it. This isn't the headlines. This is the editorial page.

I reread my essay. The last half, in which I discuss how Joey and Rachel must interact with each other, I stand by 98%. The first half, in which I introduced them to Hollywood, really was more flippant than it should have been. Here is the rewrite:

Joey is currently in a situation where, if he and Rachel remain in New York, their old repetitive patterns of behavior will put him at great risk. He can escape those patterns if he takes her away. I can envision a time when Joey's professional successes and hopes will lure him to the sizzle and dazzle of California. When he goes, he could take Rachel with him. As Ross is the better trained and more experienced parent, Emma will remain with him. Aunt Monica or Grandma Geller can help with puberty; single fathers leap this hurdle all the time.

There, in California with Joey, Rachel can start over. All the baggage, the old ruts, the scars will be gone. The trust issues, be they justified or not, will also be gone, and Rachel will be in a situation to judge her husband entirely on his conduct of the present rather than dwelling on ancient history. Going away with Joey gives her the opportunity to focus on the now and the possible, rather than ancient history.

In Hollywood, these two rather unintellectual people will be spared any challenging discussions about the Jurassic period or the importance of the opposable thumb. Neither one of them really have any interest in hard science, and there's a real advantage to being with somebody whose world view and interests are similar to your own. Rachel is going to love Tinsel Town. It's going to be more fun for her than life in New York, married to a musty academic. She likes clothes and glamour - well, face it, she does. She puts a lot of stock in physical attractiveness, and she will enjoy being married to somebody she finds as attractive as herself; indeed, the fact that he is so handsome, and that she's not somehow settling or demeaning herself to be with him may very well spur her to better behavior.

If and when her own clothing designs catch on, Joey's work ties might even be very good for Rachel's career. He will introduce her to the right people, help set up the right work deals, and her Friends back in New York might eventually get to see her designs on a movie or television screen. Joey and Rachel have complimentary careers. Ross and Rachel have nothing whatsoever to offer each other professionally. That is absolutely true.

Joey and Rachel are more intellectually compatible than Rachel and Ross are. She does not understand Ross' greatest intellectual passions or appreciate what he's talking about. Ross' conversation may bore Rachel; in the short term at least, Joey probably will not.

I am quite prepared to believe that Joey will settle down and be a good husband to Rachel. As long as his career goes well and he is in the money, he will never have an reason for insecurity about her. I am sorry to say that unless Rachel becomes less immature, they may have problems if his career falters and money gets short. Rachel MUST work on her tendency to bail on people rather than working through the patchy spots, or this marriage is not going to work. And that is my absolutely objective opinion. Joey is healthier than Ross is, and his neuroses will not compound hers because he doesn't really have any. He may be able to help her with this, but he's not going to solve this dilemma. Rachel must do it herself, and no amount of protests from the newsgroup are going to make me think otherwise about that.

Joey is, as I have often said, the most emotionally healthy of all the Friends, and I think he will be faithful and loving to her. He may also help her break some bad habits; Joey is attractive, charming, kind and appealing, even if he's not particularly quick on the uptake. If Rachel does something to manipulate him or hurt him she's going to have to apologize when he figures it out. If she mistreats him, he can do better, and he knows it. She won't be able to walk all over him the way she did Ross.He won't stand for it. That will force her to grow up and treat him with the respect, the dignity and the devotion he is due. Even if he screws up - and at some point he will; everybody who has ever had a successful marriage has ALWAYS had to work through screwups in both directions - Rachel will haveto accept that he is precious, and learn how to forgive. No bullcrap blaming 18 page letters this time. (I'm NOT taking this out; that's one of the bad habits she has absolutely got to break.) Joey will walk away if she does that. If she wants him, she must treasure him. We have seen her grow a lot as a person in the past eight years; we can hope she will grow more.

For what it's worth, I think Joey believes in the nuclear family, and as long as life with Rachel is bearable, he will never, ever leave her. If she bears him an absolutely breathtaking child, ( I have been asked to point out this particular likelihood) that will become even more certain. Actually, Joey's going to stick to that kid like glue no matter what she looks like. I'm certain of it.

One may make a strong and coherent argument that Barbie really ought to be
 with Ken, not Bill Nye the Science Guy.   "Ken" is a good man.  I like him.
 He outperforms Rachel at her own strengths.  His charm is more genuine, his
courage as pronounced, his kindness more sincere, his success more hard-won,
and he's quite as much a looker as she is.  Joey has the superficial
attributes which Rachel prizes most - and that IS going to be helpful in
their progress.  If he looks like a diamond, she's going to be more likely
to treat him like one.   He's also got a much firmer core than she does, and
if she respects him, for whatever reason, she could allow herself to learn
from him more than she ever did Ross.    This could work.

I am still removing them from the other Friends. Sorry. I really, really don't think she's going to be able break her old habits with Ross - which includes breaking every other heart that gets stuck in their romantic merry-go-round, including Joey's - unless she does one of two things:

1. Really, genuinely, earnestly discuss her issues with Ross and possibly a good counselor. In which case I think she's more likely to end up with Ross. It is my OBJECTIVE opinion that the writers have been deliberately showing her making a steady progression back to him, not towards Joey.

2. Leaves him behind and starts fresh someplace else, which is something both Mona and Emily figured out. Mona was kinder about it, but she was right. Joey and Rachel *cannot* work as a couple in New York in such close proximity to Ross unless two or more people go through extensive therapy. Since Joey ending up with Rachel will seem like a huge betrayal to Ross (and possibly Phoebe, who is actively pulling for them) that situation gets even worse. It's a time bomb. That situation is just too raw and awkward and Ross and Rachel have developed an unhealthy pattern for solving it which hurts innocent third parties. They need space away from their past mistakes - but Emma makes this option a huge problem. I'm sorry, folks, but if Emma only gets to have one parent I'm giving her to the one who knows how to put her diaper on, and let Aunt Monica handle the girly stuff. Also, in New York Emma will functionally have three psuedo-parents and all of her grandparents. She will not have anybody but Joey and Rachel in California.

I have now twice written an essay I was not required to write to pay off a debt for a bet I didn't lose to a man who isn't even here anymore. . This was not Priya's bet; the whole thing was arranged as my attempt to get *him* to look at it more as a game and less as a basis for personal attack because of the way *he* was treating people. Priya is very polite; I do not have a problem with her. I think some of you were not aware of how he generally conducted himself on this newsgroup.

Somebody who is very aware of how my original opponent behaves told me by email that if Johnson Walker didn't pay up this himself, I shouldn't be forced to do so. I should have listened to that advice.

OK, is anybody going to stick up for me at all here? I don't think I'm being treated very well, considering that my attempt to do this at all was above and beyond the call of obligation or duty. You guys need to realize that.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:zDsG8.565$[email]...

This

*him*

because

a

I can see why you're upset about this, but since you are really good at defending your arguments (way better than I could) I didn't say anything about you getting attacked for something that was supposed to be a tongue in cheek bet. I am still very aware of how Johnson treated people around here, as I've said before, if he had behaved like that towards someone else, it would've earned him a killfile.

It is just your bad luck to be someone who has very strong opinions on the show, and people who do not agree with you will get upset and since it seems next to impossible to out-debate you, they will sooner or later resort to a personal level, which has more or less happened here.

And on a personal note, I'm really happy I've never disagreed with you, since that would have been *very* time consuming and most likely I would have ended up looking like a fool for not knowing what I am talking about :-)

Andr�

"Andr� Knoche" wrote in message I am still very aware of how Johnson treated people around here,

It did. He began insulting me personally in all of his essays, smugly adding that he could throw me to the lions and I wouldn't even know it. I think it was a guy from Brussels named Tieno who finally drove him off, both here and over at Angel's. At Angel's board he went by the name Footballguy, and he behaved so badly the moderators threw him off the board.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:mJwG8.1046$[email]...

it

both

board.

Funny you should mention this Angel's board, the one thing I found to be extremely entertaining about Johnson Walker was how he called you all sorts of names for digging up quite a lot of evidence that he was in fact the infamous Footballguy from there and then a few weeks later he did the same thing to at least two different people.

But somehow I cannot imagine him running off without saying a word. If he had in fact left for good, I would've expected another post a la his apology, basically saying that replies of R&R fans to his posts caused him to be so hostile, which was nothing but total wank IMO.

Andr�

seems

a

I just want to make it very clear that I never intended the expression of my strong emotions regarding the show to be considered as "attacking" nor as "resorting to a personal level." It is clear my posts are being misunderstood, therefore I will no longer post on this group.

Be well, Katie

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

I'm sorry, Claire. You've been a good sport about this. It's just that J&R fans who read your analysis might be offended to read their couple written as two airheads who have to run away to make things work. I still think that Rachel should be given a chance to be the mother to her child. Afterall, she consciously made that decision. Anyway, it's the way you see it and that's okay.

True, you didn't have to write this essay at all. I think Johnson wouldn't have written one even if he was still here. I remember that he preferred not to write essays at all should there be a tie. I think he even made the bet only in the hopes that he'd win. Oh well.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message

Unfortunately, I think the situation is just so messy it's going to create problems that simply won't heal as long as they are living in each other's laps. It isn't the Joey/Rachel combination by itself that requires they leave; it's the terrifying amount of really horrid baggage, almost none of which is really Joey's fault. If they were going to make Joey and Rachel come together in a way that is satisfactory and peaceful for all concerned it is extremely unfortunate that they both had to make Ross the father and had to depict Ross as wanting Rachel again. Maybe Joey should have been the dad, and Ross should have been with Mona. That would certainly have been a much saner situation.

I have done everything I can to make Joey untouchable, and give him every possible benefit of the doubt. His track record with women is actually not very good, but we haven't actually seen him in love, so he *could* change his ways. I assume he will.

But see - here's the thing. Ross did, too. That is our great Western cultural assumption; most people feel that unless the situation is drastically unequal, the woman should win custody without question every single time. Whether or not that particular assumption *should* be a given is open to debate - but there I'm headed into discussion of things that actually matter.

And yes, I'd say your observations on Johnson are quite accurate.  Remember
his original stakes?  He wanted me to create a new thread every single day
all summer long about how Joey and Rachel are the greatest couple in the
history of Friends.  He suggested also that if he lost, he would start a new
thread every single day about how Ross was the best of the Friends - "even
stooping to the point of insulting the other characters" to do it.   He was
absolutely certain that he would win outright and I would lose.   I was the
one who set up stakes that could actually be realistically paid off, because
I know this show can be unpredictable.

I hope you are willing to live with the edited essay. You are right; the first one was worded in a manner unfairly flippant. I needed another day between Sunday and the essay to choose my words better.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

I would have preferred Joey as the dad myself but that didn't happen. Anyway, I can imagine a situation where a J&R relationship could work without undermining Ross. When I post my pro R&R post, I will also post possible scenarios for a J&R relationship that doesn't compromise Ross's state of mind or his access to his daughter.

Well, the show hasn't made Joey look bad either. We've only seen Ross and Rachel take the fall this season and whenever she's around Joey, Rachel is suprisingly nice. Joey's past record is immaterial, since he has admitted to having never been in love before. The fact that he slept with a reporter in 819 will never be mentioned again as that was done for a small joke, albeit a poor one.

While I sympathize with Ross's situation, your reasons for deeming Rachel as an unfit mother are most unfair. She was fumbling with Ben's diaper in Season 2 but she couldn't even make a decent cup of coffee then. This season, we've seen her make sincere attempts to try to be a good mom. By the end of 820, she had read up on most baby care matters. It's not fair to snatch the kid from her and say, "I've seen you diaper Ben six years ago!" :)

Who wants to bet that he'll be back on ATF when the season begins and we see Joey on centre stage again? :)

It's fine. I have already written mine but it's only half the size of what you wrote. :( I'm trying to add to it. Let's see.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message

rarely funny.

By the way, Priya - this is why you are without question my favorite R&J supporter.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:yvwG8.1009

Oops! There was an extra line about Mental Geller in there by accident!

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

hehe, I wondered how that got in there. I don't think anybody wants to see Mental Geller again.

Priya

Claire,

I may not always agree with you (mostly because I can't stand the character that Ross has become), but I respect your opinions. I thought your essay was well thought out and pretty realistic for the boundaries that were set. I personally love Joey and want to see him happy, yet I do not want him to end up with Rachel. I want to see the show come full circle with Ross and Rachel together (in a healthy and mature relationship). That, of course, will be up to the writers.

That said, I agree that were Joey and Rachel to end up together, they would have to be far away from Ross. There is just way too much emotional baggage between Rachel and Ross, and I don't think either of them will be free of the other unless they gets some serious counseling or distance. I think Joey and Rachel could be really sweet together, but I still think they are better as good friends. Rachel would just end up stomping all over his poor heart.

Tana

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:yvwG8.1009$[email]...

And I'm her favorite athletic supporter.

Dan

"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:...

Er...umm okay. Lol. Isn't it the other way around? ;)

Priya

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Oh my! That's quite a compliment coming from you. Thanks. :)

Priya

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:zDsG8.565$[email]...

Claire, you did great. :)

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:zDsG8.565$[email]...

I haven't had the time to read all the posts here and I am way behind but this thread was something I was waiting for in a while and I jumped to it right away. Claire, you don't need anyone to stick up for you. There are lots of people in this ng who like the stuff your posts, your opinions and ideas, myself included. You didn't have to do this and yet you still. In part I am glad that you did it cause we got another chance to read something from you. I also am looking forward to reading Priya's posts on this subject and I got to add that its really nice of her to take that loser's (Johnson) place in this bet. Don't let others give you crap. Everyone is entitled to their opinion here and I consider you one of the most respected people on this ng and I am sure im not the only one who believes that. Regarding your essay, in general I have to say that even though I am a strong supporter of your posts and kind of in favor of R/R, I have to agree with Pryia and Katie. Ofcourse I wouldn't voice my opinion in the manner that Katie did but im sure that we all just misunderstood her post cause she hasn't shown me signs of being a bad person even though her comments were unfair to some extent. I read that she said that she doesn't want to post here again which is kind of sad really. All in all, I enjoy reading your posts and Pryia's as well, especially when she is posting something that Tennant doesn't get involved in, so all I can say is that I feel the need to thank you, among other people here, for posting and giving us the pleasure of reading your thoughts.

Dennis wrote: <snip>

Yay Dennis! Always good to see you around :) What have you been up to?

Andr�

"Andr� Knoche" wrote in message news:acp74k$a8m$[email]...

Well, in short, I have been incredibly busy at work and at the same time I have had tons of stuff go wrong in several parts of my life. I still come by but only for a few minutes and I am *way* behind in reading all the posts. I was also avoiding the ng a bit till I actually got to see the season finale. But, don't worry, I will come and post again soon (for those who still read anything I have to say), as my workload will not be as great in the next couple of weeks. Thanks for the warm welcome btw.

Dennis wrote:

So you've been with the three-dimensional people, yeh? :)

Andr�

"Andr� Knoche" wrote in message news:acpb4c$hgl$[email]...

Well, yea, although not for the best reasons. In any case, some of us actually do have a life don't we? Im sure you know what I mean. )

Life? never heard of that. Can I download that somewhere? What are the minimum system specs to run it? :D

Andr�

"Andr� Knoche" wrote in message news:acqrip$2c2$[email]...

LOL

WELCHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

Dan

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:Q7jG8.270$[email]...

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Have to agree with Katie. Your article doesn't show the conviction that you promised you would exercise.

Does everything you've mentioned happen in Season 9? Sounds more like a Season 10 plot. So what happened in Season 9? Rachel just dumped her baby with Ross because she couldn't handle changing diapers and midnight feeds? Hardly an objective analysis is it?

I thought you would write something where we see the character come out of their deep rooted problems and learn to live in peace. But your only solution is to drive them out of town with a vengeance.

I figured that you might be able to see the positive aspects of a J&R relationship while you carefully analyse the relationship. Yet you have written this with a completly biased R&R view point.

What do you want to bet that they will not show Rachel as an incompetant mom? She may be clumsy to begin with as any new mother is but I'm dead sure that when the show ends she will pass with flying colors.

Okay, I'm done. You can rip my essay apart in a few days. :P

Priya

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...