Hi all, This is probably a stupid question, but it might lead to some interesting discussion...I was just wondering if we had any idea what the Friends' religious backgrounds (even if non-practicing) might be. While I don't think that anyone has come out and explicitly said "I'm Jewish", etc., I think that there might be some clues out there...I just can't think of them...
For example, in The Pilot, I think that Rachel says that she was in the waiting room of the church before her wedding, rather than the synagogue, which leads me to believe that she might not be Jewish...
Most likely Ross and Monica are not Jewish, since we have witnessed Ross' wedding to Emily which had no trace of Jewish tradition in it, and also I believe they have mentioned a church in regards to Monica and Chandler's wedding...
Joey, being Italian American, is most likely Catholic, but not necessarily...though a majority of Italians living in New York are, so it might be a logical assumption....
Phoebe probably has no religion, as she has always been more into mysticism than anything else, but her background is in question...
I seem to recall a Pheebs christmas song that had lines like "Please tell Joey, Christmas will be snowey." (the song mentioned all of the six). The line about Monica went "Monica, Monica, have a happy Hannukah." Also, a Jewish Monica & Christian Chandler wedding could easily be in either a church or synagogue they would just have to make a choice about which one they wanted (or flip a coin!) Possibly Emily's parents felt uncomfortable with a Jewish-style wedding? In the one with Monica's thunder, Monica says how at her bat mitzvah, all anyone could talk about was the fact that Rachel got to "third base" with someone, despite the fact she had a caricaturist (VERY popular entertainment at bar and bat mitzvahs). Ross, Jack+Judy have always seemed very Jewish to me, and sometimes monica too (no offense to Jewish people). I have never thought of any other friend as jewish, certainly not rachel, although it does make sense, sort of (Her name, Rachel, a popular Jewish name, her romance with Barry, a possibly Jewish guy). However, if both rachel and monica are jewish, then why did they have a christmas party once. Although it makes sense (sort of) for Pheebs to be in a mystical cult or something like that (she seems too free-spirited for organized religion) then why does she celebrate christmas, or at least sing songs about it? However i still believe that Mon + Ross are jewish. Respond please?
"Oh, how well you know me."
-Chandler Bing, "The One Where Monica Gets A New Roommate"
I have never know anyone to 'act Jewish.' If they reference their last Hannukah present, they you may safely assume that they are Jewish, but otherwise... Next question may answer it though.
When we were in elementary school, we sang songs about Hannukah every other day, even though I dont think we had that many Jewish people at out school. Phoebe, I think, was probably trying to make a rhyme. Also, since she isn't commited to any one religion, she can sing about all of them.
PS, many people say 'church' to mean any house of worship. A not-so-subtle reminder of who is the minority.
Ross and Monica are absolutely, positively, definitely Jewish. Ross has mentioned in the past that they celebrate Hanukkah, and in one episode, he polishes a menorah. Not a trace of doubt about it. Actually, more specifically, the producers have said that Jack is a Jew who married a gentile lady.
Joey has mentioned being Roman Catholic.
Yep. That confirms again what the characters have already said. Once again, Ross is ready to celebrate Hanukkah, but Ben will not want to.
If in fact that Jack Gellar married a gentile woman, than according to many people within the Jewish community, Ross and Monica would not be considered Jewish, since their mother was not Jewish....
true, but that would help explain the mixed messages...they may not have been brought up specifically identifying with one or the other. however, although i know that judaism is matrilinear, i know people who have had a father who was jewish and a mother who was catholic but they were brought up jewish and had bar mitzvahs.
I think Ross and Monica are Jewish because Ross said once he was getting Mon a present for Hanukkah. As for Rachel's wedding, jewish people don't get married in a synagogue so that doesn't say anything ... I think Joey said once he has 7 catholic sisters
I know that Monica and Ross are, because Ross said that he couldn't get Monica in the secret santa b/c he was getting her a Hannukah present and if you notice in the holiday episodes, there is a monarah(did I spell that right?) on top of the tv stand in Monica's.
Well then if Monica and Ross are Jewish (they ARE!!!) then Rachel must be some form of Christian, because i distinctly remember a christmas party at R+M's in the episode with Pheebs' dad... I definitely believe Joey is Catholic, Chandler is Christian but not Catholic (proved by the Catholic friend comment previously mentioned) Dear old Pheebs is an enigma (did i spell that right?)
Christmas is more commercial. How many holiday parties are there at work called the "Hannukah Party"? I believe that Rachel is Jewish based on the following:
1) Her characteristic Jewish nose which she had changed by the plastic surgeon. 2) Barry Farber is a Jew, as is Mindy Hunter. 3) Marlo Thomas is Jewish (99% sure), and she plays Rachel's mother. I don't recall who played her father, but I believe his name was Ron Lieberman. That's a Jewish name. And since Elliot Gould plays Jack Geller--and Gould is notorious for playing only Jewish characters--the religions of the actors portraying the Greens could be important. 4) Phoebe's holiday song said, "Spin the dreidl, Rachel!" Rachel did not complain about "not being Jewish," as Chandler did when Phoebe wished a "happy, happy Hannukah" to Chandler and Monica. 5) In "TOW The Racecar Bed," Dr. Green said he had to go say hello to the Levines, another Jewish name. How could the Greens be surrounded by all these Jewish people and not be Jewish themselves (not to sound mean)?
I do not recall anyone ever telling rachel to spin a dreidel. The christmas song i was referring to featured the line: "Rachel and Chandler, (something unintelligible) handler!" Besides, i am christian and i have played dreidel even though i dont know anyone jewish. So have a lot of people i know.
"What is up with the universe?"
-Phoebe Buffay, "The One With The Thumb"
PS- The U.S. population is around 12% Jewish. Don't you find it a little odd that 50% of a given group would be Jewish? And how would you know Barry and Mindy were Jewish?
That's true, but remember Phoebe was trying to write a Christmas song throughout the episode? In one of her versions, she also sang "Spin the dreidel Rachel."
Not really. These characters come from Hollywood. 60% of the most important positions in Hollywood are run by Jews, not to mention that a lot of the Friends writers are Jewish.
Don't you find it a little odd that 50% of a given group were children who grew up together? In case you don't know, Monica & Ross are siblings, and Rachel met them when she was 6 years old.
I think most people still think that all Jews have big noses and black males are all well hung. It's a big fable along with all blond German males being Arian. I don't think there's any real reason to be offended, though. I'm sure whomever said that didn't mean it that way. There are a lot of Jews in Amsterdam and I can't spot them in a crowd like most people would think.
The nose thing again, I guess.....
Actually...Elliot Gould IS Jewish. He's never made a secret of that. I remember reading an interview he did just after he was in the movie with Roger Moore and Telly Savalas. I forgot the name of the movie, but it was filmed in Greece.
:-))) Good one!
=+= Marcel =+=
Joey- "There already IS a Joseph Stalin!" Chandler- " You're kidding!!"
I hadda laugh out loud at this one, granted Elliot Gould plays a lot of Jewish characters, but I don't think anyone would consider him "notorious" for this.
There's nothing very Christian about Christmas trees. The practice is basically derived from pagan tree worship, with baubles replacing the little dead animal sacrifices. Wreaths, mistletoe, berries, and the holly & the ivy, are all part of the same mid-winter festival.
Furthermore, the Geller festive decorations always include a menorah.
I suspect very devout Jews do not generally have Christmas trees. They don't sleep around as much as our Friends do, either. Ross and Monica are not deeply religious. Their Jewishness, which is pronounced, is part of their cultural upbringing, but they are very much assimilated into American culture, so they celebrate both Hannukah and Christmas without blinking an eye, and probably without contemplating deeply the birth of The Child or the miracle of the oil in the temple. They are secular Jews. There are a lot of them in this country, including quite possibly two in the Friends cast and any number more in the production staff.
Apparently, according to several references in different places that I have read - Jack is Jewish but Judy is not, although Judith is a Jewish name (so I am told). Therefore it would make sense that Ross and Monica celebrate both Jewish and Christian celebrations. Anyone agree?
I do. I never felt this was a major issue. It's obvious they have some jewish roots, but they aren't religious. The argument that Jack is Jewish and Judy is Christian makes sense. They could be celebrating both of their parent's traditions.
====== es*o*ter*ic b : of or relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group
Yes but I think it's a given that none of them are Sikhs going by them not wearing the five k's, none of them are Hindu's, (Well maybe Phoebe), Muslims, nah, again, going by what they wear, and also by their morals. Buddhists? again, maybe Phoebe
1. In an article that came out after the first season or two, the producers claimed that Jack Geller was Jewish and his wife was not. They did not mention which religion the children were brought up in. HOWEVER, in succeeding seasons they have made it fairly clear that Ross and Monica were brought up Jewish-- Monica had a Bat Mitzvah. Christians don't have Bat Mitzvahs (it's an important Jewish religious ceremony, similar to a confirmation, not a party) and as this coming week's episode makes crystal clear, Ross and Monica celebrate Hanukkah.
2. Some Jews do put up Xmas trees. No rabbi would approve of this, but they do it because they claim the tree is no longer a religious symbol. The Buddhists and Shinto in Japan also have Xmas trees and Santa Claus-- a sad reflection on how commercialized the holiday has become. Ross, Rachel and Monica are obviously not very religious and thus would not be too bothered about any potential hypocrisy.
3. In addition to the "dreidel" reference, the writers have left many none-too-subtle hints that Rachel is Jewish. In fact, she is in many ways a stereotypical Jewish American Princess, from the nose job to the clothes to the job as a buyer for Bloomingdale's.
4. Marlo Thomas is NOT JEWISH. Her father, the late comedian Danny Thomas (star of "Make Room for Daddy" and her TV father on "That Girl") is a Christian Lebanese-American. That said, she and Ron Leibman, who plays Dr. Green, certainly do not look like WASPs. Their characters are as stereotypically Jewish as Rachel's is.
5. IMHO, in the early seasons, the writers and producers, many of whom are Jewish, did not want to offend potential viewers by overtly stating that the characters were one religion or the other. There was probably pressure from NBC as well, since the show ran on Thursday nights alongside Seinfeld and the (awful) Single Guy, and NBC didn't want to have three shows in a row about New York Jews. Now that the show is established as a monster hit, there is less pressure on them and they have made it increasingly clear with each passing season that the Gellers and Rachel are Jewish. In addition, since Rachel is such an obvious stereotype, they've been able to escape complaints that they are providing a negative stereotype by avoiding any mention of her religion.
6. The Jewish population of the US is actually less than 3%-- not 12%-- check any story on Joseph Lieberman. As to the probability that 3 characters on a fictional show would have the same religion-- it's fiction-- not a statistical abstract.
7. Joey is Catholic, it's been mentioned several times. Phoebe has never mentioned what religion her parents were or what she follows, nor, to my knowledge, has Chandler.
I agree with the rest of your post, but Xmas trees & Santa Claus were never very Christian in the first place. The trees derive from pagan religion, the baubles replacing little sacrifices. Wreaths, mistletoe, the holly & the ivy, and the Yule log are all part of that milieu.
Santa Claus, (as opposed to the very real Saint Nicholas, a kindly bishop in the Middle Ages - and Father Christmas, the traditional English figure who encouraged Victorian adults to let their hair down once a year), was invented by Thomas Nast in 1863 as part of a Yuletide advertising campaign for early New York department stores & mail order catalogue companies.
He was later taken over by Coca-Cola - note the red/white of the corporate logo. The costume he wears today was designed by American artist Haddon Sunblom for a promotional campaign which ran in the early 1930s.
Thanks for the info on the Christmas trees. Up till now, I'd never heard of a jewish family putting up Christmas decorations (or as one person said... pagan decorations LOL) I guess it just all depends on how religous you are. I know a friend who is jewish and she doesn't put up trees or buy Christmas presents for her non-jewish friends. I know in one episode, Monica bought Christmas presents for everyone and hid them. So I guess my friend and Monica are the extreme opposites of what being jewish is like.
Thanks, A Wolk! I've been keeping a list of inaccurate or uninformed statements as I read this thread, and you have corrected most of them. 2 that I would add:
1) Many Jews most certainly DO get married in (or at) synagogues. Someone claimed the contrary when talking about Rachel's aborted wedding. Some get married in an outdoor ceremony, with only the wedding canopy (or "chuppah" --which represents their future home, God's sheltering presence & other things) covering them. Of course, many also get married at catering facilities & hotels.
2) Despite their pagan roots, many Christmas symbols also have Christian religious significance which was attached to them by the church. For instance, Christmas trees represent the wooden cross on which Jesus was crucified, and the fact that they are evergreen is a symbol of Christian belief in his resurrection and everlasting life. Holly wreaths represent the crown of thorns and drops of blood.
In my opinion, many Jews who participate in the Americanized celebration of "The Holidays" (as Christmas has long been euphemistically referred to in the media) do so because they have not been educated in a meaningful way about the historical and spiritual richness of our Jewish traditions, or about the true Christian meaning of those "fun" holiday symbols. I also think gentiles who celebrate Christmas but claim it is not really religious anymore are not being respectful of their religious Christian neighbors. It would be more accurate for them to say "I'm not religious, but I like these holiday activities & rituals" or, "I'm not a Christian believer, but I like the Christmas messages of peace and love for all people."
There's also a certain irony in the following facts: that while Jews make up 3% of the population, everyone in America seems to know what Hanukkah is and think it's important (because it falls near Christmas); that, minor historical holiday though it is, many assimilated Jews celebrate Hanukkah even if they don't observe other Jewish festivals or laws; and that if you know the story of Hanukkah (and I wish they had let Ross get this part out so everyone could hear it!!) the true miracle of the holiday was that a small minority won a war of religious freedom against an oppressive majority which wanted to assimilate them.
If anyone wants to read more about a Jewish perspective on "The December Dilemma" (i.e. how it feels to be Jewish when Christmas is all around you; how to deal with interfaith family issues; what to say when your Jewish kids ask why they can't have a tree, etc.), I recommend the books "Hanukkah: the Art of Jewish Living" by Dr. Ron Wolfson and "A Different Light" by Noam Zion. (If Ross were a real person, I'd send him a copy!)
There's a lot more I could say, but I'll get off my soapbox now. This happens to me (and a lot of other people) every December! (I'll bet that's why this thread started again, even though I'm sure this topic has been debated ever since "Friends" premiered.) As a wise rabbi I know said just this week, all cultures have a mid-winter festival of some form. It's a natural human impulse to try to bring light and warmth, both physical and spiritual, to this darkest time of the year. On that ecumenical note, I'll wish everyone a Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanzaa, Peaceful Winter Solstice, Happy Secular New Year and a very Pleasant (insert your favorite winter holiday here)!
1. In an article that came out after the first season or two, the producers claimed that Jack Geller was Jewish and his wife was not. They did not mention which religion the children were brought up in. HOWEVER, in succeeding seasons they have made it fairly clear that Ross and Monica were brought up Jewish-- Monica had a Bat Mitzvah. Christians don't have Bat Mitzvahs (it's an important Jewish religious ceremony, similar to a confirmation, not a party) and as this coming week's episode makes crystal clear, Ross and Monica celebrate Hanukkah.
2. Some Jews do put up Xmas trees. No rabbi would approve of this, but they do it because they claim the tree is no longer a religious symbol. The Buddhists and Shinto in Japan also have Xmas trees and Santa Claus-- a sad reflection on how commercialized the holiday has become. Ross, Rachel and Monica are obviously not very religious and thus would not be too bothered about any potential hypocrisy.
3. In addition to the "dreidel" reference, the writers have left many none-too-subtle hints that Rachel is Jewish. In fact, she is in many ways a stereotypical Jewish American Princess, from the nose job to the clothes to the job as a buyer for Bloomingdale's.
4. Marlo Thomas is NOT JEWISH. Her father, the late comedian Danny Thomas (star of "Make Room for Daddy" and her TV father on "That Girl") is a Christian Lebanese-American. That said, she and Ron Leibman, who plays Dr. Green, certainly do not look like WASPs. Their characters are as stereotypically Jewish as Rachel's is.
5. IMHO, in the early seasons, the writers and producers, many of whom are Jewish, did not want to offend potential viewers by overtly stating that the characters were one religion or the other. There was probably pressure from NBC as well, since the show ran on Thursday nights alongside Seinfeld and the (awful) Single Guy, and NBC didn't want to have three shows in a row about New York Jews. Now that the show is established as a monster hit, there is less pressure on them and they have made it increasingly clear with each passing season that the Gellers and Rachel are Jewish. In addition, since Rachel is such an obvious stereotype, they've been able to escape complaints that they are providing a negative stereotype by avoiding any mention of her religion.
6. The Jewish population of the US is actually less than 3%-- not 12%-- check any story on Joseph Lieberman. As to the probability that 3 characters on a fictional show would have the same religion-- it's fiction-- not a statistical abstract.
7. Joey is Catholic, it's been mentioned several times. Phoebe has never mentioned what religion her parents were or what she follows, nor, to my knowledge, has Chandler.
Shalom, BMYanow Seeing as we're sighing happy holidays, can I just wish my people a happy Bayram? The fasting is going on this month To Cihan and other Turks out there that I don't know, Bayram kutlu olsun! To other Muslims, happy Ramadan!
As you say, that religious significance was attached by the church, as it incorporated pagan ritual into its own festival cycle as part of the process of making converts without depriving people of their traditions.
That doesn't change the fact that Christmas trees & the rest *are* rooted in pagan religion, and cannot be held up as being proof of Christianity.
<< > Despite their pagan roots, many Christmas symbols also have Christian
As you say, that religious significance was attached by the church, as it incorporated pagan ritual into its own festival cycle as part of the process of making converts without depriving people of their traditions.
That doesn't change the fact that Christmas trees & the rest *are* rooted in pagan religion, and cannot be held up as being proof of Christianity.
Tennant
Hi, Tennant.
I'm not sure I understand your point (i.e. what you mean by saying the symbols "cannot be held up as being proof of Christianity"). I didn't say that having a Christmas tree or a wreath in one's home proves that one is a Christian. I said that people (for example, Jews who are trying to rationalize having a Christmas tree in their home) who deny that these are religious symbols (in the context of claiming that Christmas has virtually become a secular national holiday) may be offending practicing Christians (as well as practicing Jews). One can acknowledge the pagan origins of the trees and wreaths, but like many other symbols, they have evolved, and they are now universally recognizable as representing Christmas. No matter how you slice it, no matter how commercialized the "holiday season" has become, no matter that we really don't know when Jesus was born, Christmas is still the official celebration of his birth.
I guess an analogous situation would be Christians holding a Passover seder, because of its significance in the Easter story (since the Last Supper was a seder). I know lots of churches do this every year. As a Jew, I'm not offended that Christians want to experience a ritual that Jesus participated in, but I would surely be offended if they started claiming that it wasn't really a Jewish ritual anymore.
I hope that clarifies my position for you. Have a happy holiday.
You can't have your cake and eat it. You say that it could be wrong to offend Jews by taking over Passover, and yet Christianity owns Christmas trees since it has taken them over from pagan religion. Who owns a ritual, the people who had it first, the people who had it last, everybody, nobody, or just whatever religion that you happen to care about?
I don't want to offend anybody, but the fact remains that millions if not billions of people have a illuminated tree in their house right now, and yet they are not practicing Christians - so don't say that Ross & Monica are Christian or non-Jewish because they do too. They're just joining in.
This came from http://www.usaweekend.com/00_issues/001008/001008kudrow.html. It was from an article in USA Weekend magazine about LK.
{Lisa} Kudrow grew up in an upper-middle-class Jewish family in
Tarzana, Calif., a studious bookworm with a sometimes
inexplicable need to be noticed. In fourth grade, she
volunteered
to perform scenes from Fiddler on the Roof for her
class.
Rather than sing Matchmaker, Matchmaker -- she found
Tevye's daughters "boring and not funny" -- she acted
out the
crazy dream sequence, playing both the dead
grandmother and
the butcher's dead wife. "I then suggested that I do
the act for all
the other classes, and my teacher said OK. So I
played the
record, brought my bag of costumes. I don't know
where I got
the gumption."