Friends S8-24 - sign on the porch

PLEASE note that this is only the second part of the finale.

If you have any comments about part 1, please refer to my review "Friends S8-23 - the perfect woman". Many thanks.

British/Anzac/Euro SPOILER SPACE for 824...

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824 "TOW Rachel Has a Baby (part 2)"

While Rachel was in labour for many hours, Ross's mother pressed him to marry the girl, but he refused - much to the puzzlement of Joey & Phoebe. Meanwhile, Chandler & Monica decided to try for a baby, Joey used his Doctor Drake persona to help Phoebe meet a man named Cliff, and Rachel's new roomie at the maternity ward was a pregnant Janice!

Janice introduces her roomies to her second husband Sid, whom she'd married the year before. Ross & Rachel just can't believe it, until Janice explains he's almost deaf, while she is puzzled that they're not together yet they're having a baby. All seems well until Janice starts having contractions, they loudest they've ever heard.

Next door, Chandler & Monica find a private room that's empty, but instead of telling Rachel, they decide to have sex in it first. Yet just as Chandler is getting ready to fertilise Monica, they hear a braying noise through the wall, and rush in to find Janice there.

Chandler rudely asks her whose unwilling human essence she's stolen, so Janice retorts by claiming he is the father! His reaction is so guilty & nervous that it might just be true, so Janice laughs that they haven't slept together in years.

However, Monica still desperately wants to give her niece a cousin, so a little while later she & Chandler emerge from a a closet with a happy glow on their faces, having just done it on a bucket!

                             ---o0o---

After Rachel has been in labour for 21 hours, it is no great relief to see Janice wheeled away to the delivery room - but then the doctor declares that Rachel is at 10cm, so she can go too. As Rachel departs, she boasts to the sixth woman that she beat her!

A while later, Rachel is in huge agony as she has to push ever harder, since it has turned out that the baby will be a breech birth - and for once in her life, Rachel is faced with a nigh-impossible task that she can't get someone else to do for her.

However, Ross strongly urges her into one final push, and as Rachel thrusts forward she head-butts him, so he announces that she has no idea how much that hurts! At last the baby is born, tiny but perfect, and Rachel declares that her surname will be Geller-Green. Ross goes to kiss her forehead, but she lifts her face so he kisses her lips.

When Monica, Joey, Phoebe & Chandler come to see the baby, they want to know her first name, but Rachel is still rejecting Ross's ideas. He reveals that Monica decided her children's names when she was 14; but she's reluctant to tell until Rachel promises not to take them, then Monica reveals that her daughter's name would be Emma.

Rachel clearly loves the name, but sticks to her promise, so Monica kindly gives the name away, since she loves Rachel even more, and in any case the name doesn't go with Bing! And so it is that Monica cradles her niece in her arms, and calls her Emma.

                             ---o0o---

Meanwhile, Phoebe doesn't mind that Cliff isn't into kinky sex, and soon they are getting on very well together. When his bandaged foot itches, she uses a spoon handle to scratch it, so he jokes they're spooning, but she tells him to relax, it's not like they're forking!

Yet when "Days of Our Lives" comes on Cliff's TV, he recognises Drake Ramoray, and realises that he's been deceived. Joey tries to redress the balance by revealing personal stuff about Phoebe, such as she was married to a gay ice dancer, she gave birth to her brother's triplets, and her twin sister did porn. Yet somehow, despite all this, Phoebe's sincere plea for them to start over seems to work...

                             ---o0o---

Janice eventually comes to show off her baby to Rachel, who recoils in horror because it's so ugly, but she manages to disguise her reaction. Kindly, Janice declares how much she admires her, for raising a baby on her own. Rachel says she has Ross, but Janice warns that once he marries someone else he will concentrate on his new children. Rachel doesn't believe this, until Janice reveals that it happened to her.

Later, Rachel concludes that she & Emma will be on their own, unless the kiss that she shared with Ross should lead to something. However, when she broaches the subject with Ross, he declares that they dare not go down that road again, and she is forced to agree - at which point he admits that he's just been chatting up a pretty nurse.

But when Phoebe has another go at Ross, insisting that he's loved Rachel since he was 15, he reminds her of all the bad times they've had - if they try again and it didn't work out it would be even worse for Emma. However, Phoebe advises him that he must take that chance.

Meanwhile, Joey has found Rachel in tears - and after hearing why, he assures her that Ross will take care of her. However, Rachel has been swayed by Janice's sad experiences, and though Joey is not convinced, he kindly agrees with her. As Rachel despairs, he takes her hand, and with great sincerity he earnestly promises her that she will never ever be alone, because he will not let that happen.

Rachel is deeply touched, and buries her head in his manly chest for comfort, allowing doubts & insecurities to flow across his face. But when he fetches her some tissues from under Ross's coat, Althea's ring falls out, and as he kneels to pick it up, Rachel assumes that he must be proposing to her for the second time.

After a brief pause for thought, Rachel says okay, causing Joey to look startled at what just happened - while in the corridor outside, Ross is approaching with an impromptu bouquet of flowers...

                             ---o0o---

This wasn't quite as funny as the first half of the finale, but that was more than made up for by its drama. Once again, a Phoebe romance fell flat in part two, though we may see more of Cliff next season.

Meanwhile, Chandler & Monica's sneaking around was a mere extension of what we saw before, for the story was not fully developed, but he had a fun moment with Janice, while she was totally adorable with Rachel.

And yet none of that matters, for all was washed away by an incredible piece of knife-edged writing by series creators Marta Kauffman & David Crane. They wove a story of such tangled threads that we fans will be debating its implications for months to come - who meant what by what they said or what they did, or didn't say or didn't do.

As for the performances, it'll come as no surprise that Lisa Kudrow & David Schwimmer were sweet together; Matt LeBlanc was on amazing form as soon as his character interacted with Rachel again; while Jennifer Aniston was no less than a tour-de-force, as Rachel went through hell to bring forth life, only to emerge in a new world of uncertainty.

                             ---o0o---

Since March, the directors have been either Kevin S. Bright or Gary Halvorson. So what happened to Jennifer Aniston, who claimed in an interview early this year that she was going to direct an episode in March, for airing sometime in May?

According to a filming report there will be little extra footage for the DVD - yet it makes no mention of the tag, which was filmed later on. So could it be that in the light of falling ratings, BKC took notice of those casual fans who mostly want Joey & Rachel?

This episode was set on about 6th June 2002, (see the timeline in my review of Part 1), so Janice married Sid some time in May/June 2001. We last saw Janice just before Thanksgiving 2000, so that means she took just six months to fall for her dermatologist and get married. She moves a lot faster than Monica, doesn't she?

What was worse - Janice's contractions, or becoming very nasal in 707 "TOW Ross's Library Book"?

Why was it so understandable that Sid was deaf, when Chandler, Gary, and Ross were not?

Janice reminds Chandler that she has a very wide pelvis, but why shouldn't she have been reminding Ross as well?

When Janice said that her baby was Chandler's, did you think that explained where he was hiding 38 weeks ago, before going to hide in his office? Or that Ross went there, during his search?

Why didn't the doctor know in advance that Rachel was having a breech birth? Couldn't she have found out from just feeling the abdomen?

According to the doctor, Rachel went to the delivery room after 21 hours of labour, yet when Chandler saw the baby he said the whole process took 47 hours. Was Rachel really on the delivery table for 26 hours? Or did Chandler get it wrong?

Did you realise that one of Ross's choices, Isabella, belonged to the movie star he unwisely deleted from his freebie list just before he met her - Isabella Rossellini in 305 "TOW Frank Jr."?

Or that Daniel was one of the names on Rachel's freebie list?

And could it be that Emma is Monica's middle name?

Wasn't it very rude of Chandler to assume that 14yo Monica's choice of baby names would be after some snacks or baked goods?

Emma Bing doesn't go together, but how about Isabella Bing, yes?

And did you realise that the new baby's initials spell EGG?

Weren't Monica & Rachel just lovely together, when the baby was named? Why is it 3 years since we had a Monica & Rachel story?

Why didn't Monica promise her niece that she'll always have gum?

Do you agree that Chandler & Monica had a lot more fun in a maternity ward closet than Ross, Carol & Phoebe once did seven years ago?

And if they did manage a conception, will little Daniel Bing be born in the February sweeps of 2003?

Wasn't "forking" just the naughtiest sexual innuendo?

What was the full name of Janice's baby? It sounded to me something like Aaron Lipman-Gorelnik. Would that mean her husband's name is Sid Gorelnik, and she was originally named Janice Lipman? And if so, did she marry Gary Lipman, or is Lipman her maiden name?

If Emma Geller-Green does marry Aaron Lipman-Gorelnik, do you realise that means that Janice would be Chandler's wife's brother's daughter's husband's mother?

So, little Aaron is ugly because he has big nose. Shouldn't Rachel be glad that Emma does not have her mother's nose? Or that Ross is wrong to think that his daughter looks like Rachel?

Was Janice right to warn that Ross could do the same thing as Gary? Hasn't he been a good father to Ben? Or has he been neglecting Ben lately to concentrate on the new baby? And even if not, can Rachel ever be sure of that?

And even if you didn't agree with what Janice said, wasn't it nice to see her be just a fairly normal human being for a change?

Has Ross really loved Rachel ever since he was 15? Does that mean that he was in love with her all the time that he was married to Carol? Or going with Julie or Bonnie? Or married to Emily? Or having sex with at least five other women, including one Janice Lipman?

Did Joey totally believe in Rachel's analysis of her situation? Or was he just being a good listener, by agreeing with what she said? Or was he cruelly manipulating her just to have his evil way with her?

Or was Joey simply reacting in the same sweet way he did in 802 "TOW the Red Sweater", the first time that he proposed to her, when he told Rachel that it was a scary world out there, especially for a single mom? Isn't that very true now?

Did you squeal when Rachel accepted what she thought was a proposal?

Will Joey do the decent thing, and own up to what really happened?

Or will Joey check with Ross first, thinking that's the right thing to do, and not knowing that his good friend might put his own feelings to one side, and tell him to go ahead?

If Ross is coming to propose, not realising what waits in store, isn't that a beautiful bit of bookending with the Season 1 cliffhanger, when it was Rachel's turn to wait in hope, with some flowers? And that both took place where arrivals happen?

And could it be that we are falling for one of Kauffman & Crane's little cliffhanger tricks, and Ross was not bringing the flowers for Rachel after all, or if he was, it wasn't as a proposal? Does he even need flowers, when he has his grandmother's engagement ring?

Isn't Ross now so afraid of four divorces that he daren't get married in any haste, therefore he is not planning to propose? Or could it be he was going to propose, and Joey has just saved him from ruining it?

Could it be that the ending which all Ross & Rachel fans wanted was actually filmed, but now is locked up in a vault at Warner Bros?

                             ---o0o---

If you didn't recognise that doleful ballad during the cliffhanger, it was "Sign on the Window", composed & performed by Bob Dylan...

Sign on the window said "Lonely", Sign on the door said "No Company Allowed", Sign on the street said "Y' Don't Own Me", Sign on the porch says "Three's A Crowd", Sign on the porch says "Three's A Crowd".

PLEASE note that this is only the second part of the finale, that's everything *after* Janice arrived at the hospital.

If you have any comments about part 1, please refer to my review "Friends S8-23 - the perfect woman". Many thanks.

Tennant Stuart

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

She finanly found the perfect guy?

That occurred to me at the time. It seems unlikely it would have been visual surprise.

Aunts and Uncles get to spoil the children with sweets. Parents have to worry about cavities.

It struck me as very rude, especially given the timing, for her to assume to the exclusion of any other possibility that Ross would effectively abandon Rachel. Whatever complaints people may have about Ross, he shown himslewf to be a deadbeat dad.

Not so hard to believe. If he really "loved" Rachel would those feeling go away just because he wasn't with her? For those that beleive in "soul mates," if Ross loved Rachel, but she didn't want to be with him, or he was afraid to tell her how he felt, does that mean he doesn't still love her? I believe you can be in love with more than one person.

I think he was just being a good listener and a good friend.

Personally, I groaned.

Of course he will. Joey is a decent and honorable guy. Remember all those years when he convinced Chandler that Janice should with her husband than with him because they had a child together. Nothing has happened to make him lose his moral center that would change that type of thinking on his part.

I think that is exactly what he was telling Phoebe, but together they decided he should not make decisions based upon fear, and own up to not only his feelings (which is that he has never been out of love with Rachel), but to doing the right thing.

Hopefully (speaking for myself), Joey hasn't ruined Ross's impending proposal.

Scott

Tennant... are you a Ross/Joey supporter?

"Scott Letteney" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:...

Tennant is a Joey supporter in a BIG way!! Isn't that great? :)

Priya

On Sat, 25 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as p r i y a typed this -

I hope you meant Joey/Rachel!

If you ever suggest to him that Joey is dumb, you are in big trouble. :)

In article , "Dan Silverstein" wrote:

Oh yes, they make such a cute couple: from their first kiss at the end of S2, to their sleeping together in S7. ;)

Tennant

LOL... whoops... I think you know what I meant! :O

Dan

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

In article , "Dan Silverstein" wrote:

Of course, I was merely teasing.

I am a supporter of all six characters: unlike some fans, I do not regard this as "The Ross & Rachel Show", with the other four people reduced to being supporting players.

BOTOH, IPC2S, I'm on the side of Ross...

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

But On The Other Hand I got, but IPC2S I'm having trouble with.

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

If Push Comes to (2) Shove.

I have a new version of my acronyms list about to come out, just as soon as Priya gives me the go-ahead. Would you like a copy?

Would anyone else like to be added to the distribution list?

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

Ahhhhhh...

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

YSW

ISRNBIWSYTS

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

ONSTHTBALBOCH

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

What's that?

And that?

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

OK, Now See, There Has To Be A Little Bit Of Context, Here

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

Ah.

Oh, TIJUOGP is quite good, I'll put the in the new list. Ta.

Tennant

On Mon, 27 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

Yes.

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

Okay, you're on the list, and I'll send you a copy anon.

Would anyone else like that?

Tennant

"JamesS1889" wrote in message news:[email]...

IPC2S - I Prefer Couples 2 Sides???

Priya

In article , "p r i y a" wrote:

Nope.

The next acronym list is just waiting for your say-so, babe. :)

Tennant

On Fri, 31 May 2002 05:24:02 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

Yeah, you can send it now, thanks.

Priya

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

Okies!

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Now, I'll tell you what...

THAT combination has a lot to recommend it:

1. There's virtually no baggage at all; these guys have been the best of friends for a long time. 2. They always treat each other well. That's one of the primary good arguments in favor of Rachel and Joey. 3. Imagine the ratings! What a shocker! 4. Rachel gets her comuppance; "Lady, you drove us both off women completely. Women are nuts." 5. It will be absolutely original and unexpected, which is another one of the primary good arguments in favor of Joey and Rachel.

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

Lol, yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES!

Thankyou so much for that, Claire. :)

Tennant

In article , [email] (Scott Letteney) wrote:

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Maybe he was, but the implication was that only Sid could stand her, while the others could not. Yet Chandler was her boyfriend for possibly some years. Gary was her husband and the father of her daughter. Only Ross was short term, and she dumped him.

And unlikely that the baby turned at the last minute?

O4sure, the thing is that's what Monica promised her nephew.

Sorry Scott, is that a typo? You seem to have contradicted yourself.

I think that Ross might have settled for all those women because he couldn't have Rachel, but in that case he loses credibility for how much in turn he told them he loved them, that each was the one.

Yeah, it was interesting to me how much he was 'normal' Joey up until he said "I guess so"; and then the inner Joey came out, the one who isn't a womaniser. Hell, if I was a girl, I'd marry that Joey on the spot!

Oh, I thought it was a brilliant comic twist.

I agree. Will he get the chance to do that, or will fate intervene once again? (Of course, "fate" is actually Marta Kauffman).

Well, that's what Phoebe concluded he should do, but we didn't hear what Ross had to say. All we have is the way that he looked at her, and then he bought some flowers. What you suggest is eminently reasonable, but this show has a history of unexpected season openers.

It could be that Joey tries to do the right thing by checking with Ross, who tries to do the right thing by stepping aside...

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Yes, you are right. It should have read "he has not shown himself to be a deadbeat dad."

I can see the producers doing that, but (again speaking for myself) it would be too much to take.

Scott

In article , [email] (Scott Letteney) wrote:

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Ah. Thanks. But if he did marry someone else, and she had a baby in a year's time, can Rachel really be so sure that he wouldn't concentrate more on them, than on his ex-wife & Emma?

And if he wouldn't, shouldn't he?

Maybe, but I reckon that Marita is dead right when she doubts that Ross was coming to propose to Rachel, but bringing flowers to show affection and congratulate her on the birth of their daughter. Ross expressed his concerns about Emma to Phoebe, so there's no way that he was planning on messing with their situation by proposing right away.

Tennant

On Fri, 31 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

Plus, Phoebe has a history of messing with his head.

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

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She is very manipulative.

Tennant

On Tue, 28 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Scott Letteney typed this -

Thanks, I was hoping that was what you meant.

On Sun, 26 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

Must have heard Janice's voice! :)

IMO, the writers were desperate for a cliffhanger - ANY cliffhanger.

I don't think Ross *was* just about to propose.

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

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Lol, she moved her ears away from the hole, which she blocked with her bum!

What would you have written instead?

Right. Me neither.

Tennant

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

Something that avoided continuing the Joey/Rachel storyline.

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

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Such as?

Tennant

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

Well, *not* having a fake proposal, for a start!

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

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No, that's what you would not have written.

What would you have written?

Tennant

On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

Persistent, aren't you! :)

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

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Funnily enough, today I'm not in a persistent mood. :)

Tennant

On Fri, 24 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Scott Letteney typed this -

What about when she has to get up at all hours when he can't hear the baby crying (or pretends not to). :)

Puzzled me too.

No way is Ross a deadbeat dad! He spends as much time as he can with Ben, even though he'd have to put up with Susan to do so.

Me2.

He *has* to - for one thing, it's not even his ring.

I wonder how soon Ross will get there? He was obviously close by, bringing Rachel those flowers.

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

  .

I think that is a very realistic view of what has happened. It is indeed very twisted and mixed up.

"Hey, it's so easy, even Ro- David can do it!" "Uh, wait a minute... Um, uh, I don't know what I'm doing..."

Actually, that's not really what I think happened. I'd say that this episode depended so much on a performance from Rachel that it really wasn't a good first outing for Jennifer to direct. Maybe next year.

Nope. I think they have richly earned their artistic freedom and did exactly what they wanted to do.

Sid married her.

Chandler had spent more time with it, and he wasn't having a baby.

Yes. That was dumb.

He was kidding - another big sarcastic Bing moment.

You know, if they'd just end this soap opera nonsense, let Emma have her parents in peace and quiet, and explore other couplings than the obvious ones, we might see this more often.

Because all she had in her purse that day was tootsie rolls and lifesavers. Think about it for a second, you'll get it. :-)

Hey, they didn't show us the wild threesome.

Yes. I screamed with amusement and wondered how they got it past the censors.

And even more closely, it means that Emma will marry the son of a woman who once slept with her daddy.

We can only look at the opinion of the characters for that. Well, you've got the database...

Actually, I was 45% more likely to strangle her than usual.

More importantly, if Phoebe and Ross are so destined for each other, why is she telling him to grab a spoon again?

No, I think that gentle soul was just listening, and he's going to spend the next episode feeling like complete crap for something that wasn't really his fault.

Grin. What do you think? Actually, my reaction, after Crane and Kauffman's interviews, was, "Oh, is that all it is? Well, this is awfully easy to fix, and impossible to sustain as is." I was relieved.

If they care even one little bit about keeping him at all in character, they will have to let him do that. If Joey accepts her acceptance this stands as the most brutal betrayal in the history of Friends and it will not fly.

I think that's less likely to happen now. This was feasible at 816. It isn't anymore.

I think that's a great observation. And, in each case, after obstacles were presented and words of love were made to seem false, may Ross and Rachel find their way back. I think she's the one who has to apologize now.

That's a pretty good observation. The flowers ARE for Rachel, but Phoebe didn't really tell him to propose. Judy did. Phoebe told him to tell Rachel how he felt.

No, this is what Kauffman and Crane always wanted to do. And as this is what they wanted, I can live with it. They always need a big shocker; they always get one. You are really focusing too much on the ratings; the only people who really think the ratings were ever a problem were diehard R&J fans who were willing to envision a world where K&C had the number one show in the country and they were still be bullied and censored by irate NBC executives. PLEASE get just a tad of common sense in this analysis!

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

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Thanks, Claire.

ROTFL!

Yes, I think you're very probably right.

So why was the aired episode different from the initial shoot?

Yes, but so did Gary, and he wasn't deaf. Chandler was her boyfriend for possibly quite some while - we don't know how long they'd been an item by 105 "TOW the East German Laundry Detergent", but Janice was buying him socks, which looks very cosy to me - and he's not deaf.

Ah yes, but Ross was far more recent.

Okay, thanks.

That's okay then. It makes sense to me, and it was supportive sarcasm.

Oh yes, I quite agree actually. And let's have more stories that have nothing to do with romance at all. This applies to Phoebe in spades.

Err, I *think* I get it, but I'd like to hear your explanation please. :)

I know...

Yeah, especially since spooning has the meaning of mawkish love-making.

Ah yes, she'll be her own husband's mother's lover's daughter.

Ross's record on Ben is good until Rachel fell pregnant, since then it's been a little patchy. He thought of Ben while playing Bamboozle, and also objected to Rachel's suggestion that he wasn't serious are about keeping Ben in his life - but the only time we've seen Ben since the wedding, he was being picked up from school by Aunt Phoebe. And then there was this from 805 "TOW Rachel's Date"...

ROSS: It's just I always thought when I had another kid it would be
      different. Now I-I love Ben, but every time I have to drop him
      off at Carol & Susan's, it's like- It breaks my heart a little.
      I mean I've always had this picture of me & my next wife in bed
      on Sunday and, my kid comes running in and leaps up onto the bed.
      And we all read the paper together. Y'know? Maybe fight over the
      science section.

JOEY: That's a nice picture. Can I ask you something? In this, in this picture of you & your wife, is your wife Rachel?

ROSS: It used to be. Now she doesn't really have a face.

..for the record, my opinion of Ross is that he's a good father, all things considered. If only he could have the settled family life that he yearns for, he'd be a very good father.

But I've seen bits of recent "ER" episodes where one of the doctors was in a custody battle for his son, wherein his good parenting was twisted to look bad in court. I am not saying that Ross would face such a battle, merely that others might see him differently from us.

Apart from her advice though, at least she was less cartoonish, yes?

Phoebe is very loyal to her friends, and would never cross Rachel.

I am very tempted to agree with you - all that holds me back is the expectation that what does actually happen will be unexpected. :)

Yeah, it seems very easy to me too. That's why I'm suspicious.

Yeah, I would hate it if he's made to look bad.

Oh, interesting. What would you say has happened to change that?

Thanks.

Well, there could be many bramble bushes on the path.

For believing Janice, and fearing the worst of Ross?

Absolutely. Thanks.

But *how* do you know this is what Kauffman & Crane always wanted to do?

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Can you give me details on how it differed? I genuinely do not know.

Yeah, that didn't last.

Chandler was her boyfriend

But he seems to have gotten past that bit of insanity.

I guess Chandler was more memorable.

Really? Then I'll even drop the edge and say that if they would just stop going to such contrived lengths to shock us, and just concentrated on telling funny, honest stories like they did at the beginning of the series, these couple wars would probably disappear and the ratings would remain high.

Now why are they so obsessed with sex to the exclusion of all else, anyway?

Well, it has nothing to do with Babe Ruth.

Does that mean Ross' record is bad, or just that we haven't seen it?

And then there was this

Why does that indicate he's a bad father? Huh???

Yeah, Katie's started a really good thread on that. >

Ooooh Myyyy Gaaaaawwwd...no, not really. I've never really disliked Janice. I think sometimes the Friends are not nearly as kind to her as she is to them; that being said, of the three uninvited founts of advice during the finale, hers was the worst. Phoebe spoke well of people she loved because she wished for their happiness; Judy expressed a puritanical but honest opinion of how Ross should live his life; Janice did something akin to slander, while meaning well.

The really unexpected stuff seems to happen during the cliffhangers. During the morning after, the reactions generally appear to be a bit less overwhelmingly contrived, illogical and unpredictable. In short, since they don't need to shock, they tend to make more sense.

Really, Tennant, what CAN Joey do? Is he a good man? I think he is. How must a good man behave here? How to keep from behaving like roadkill? I have faith in Joey. He's the only character they have never wrecked, and I want him to stay that way.

Ross did not act as if he loved her in 816. Now he does. Then, the rift was reperable. Now, if R&J get engaged on the day of Ross' daughter's birth based on advice from JANICE????! using Ross' family heirloom right after Phoebe has made Ross unearth his heart...

If R&J were to be coupled, I think Phoebe would have been silent.

No argument there.

For forgetting his promise to her and to her mother. This issue has already been addressed recently.

Well, how do you know they changed the ending because of ratings? :-)

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

British/Anzac/Euro SPOILER SPACE for 824...

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I can't be adamant about this, since it's hard to prove a negative, and I don't know how complete the filming report is (nor even who wrote it) but as best as I can tell, these parts were extra...

Ross is glad to be interrupted by his mother arriving; but out in the corridor, Judy hands him her mother Althea's engagement ring, to give to Rachel. Ross is adamant that he won't get married just because she is pregnant, but puts the ring in his coat pocket to shut Judy up.

Ross daren't tell Rachel what happened, so he goes to the other four in the waiting room - but Phoebe can't understand why he's not with Rachel, annoying Ross who stomps off. However, Joey can't understand Ross either, since Rachel is the perfect woman. If only she had not turned him down, he would take her in his arms, and... but seeing how the other three stare at him, Joey pretends he was just kidding.

Later, (while Phoebe is advising Ross that he must fight his fear for Emma's future), Joey finds Rachel in tears - and after hearing why, he assures her that Ross will take care of her. However, Rachel has been swayed by Janice's sad experiences, and though Joey is not convinced, he kindly agrees with her. As Rachel despairs, he takes her hand, and with great sincerity he earnestly promises her that she will never ever be alone, because he will not let that happen.

Rachel is deeply touched, and buries her head in his manly chest for comfort, allowing doubts & insecurities to flow across his face. But when he fetches her some tissues from under Ross's coat, Althea's ring falls out, and as he kneels to pick it up, Rachel assumes that he must be proposing to her for the second time.

After a brief pause for thought, (while in the background Bob Dylan starts singing his ballad "Sign on the Window"), Rachel says okay, causing Joey to look startled at what just happened - while in the corridor outside, (as Bob Dylan sings that three is a crowd), Ross is approaching with an impromptu bouquet of flowers.

..if I've missed any other extras, or claimed something significant was an extra when it was not, then corrections are welcome.

It lasted a long longer than Sid has so far.

This is quite true, Claire. All I am saying is that the implication was that only Sid could stand Janice, because he was deaf. But in fact Gary and Chandler stood her for many years even though they're not deaf, (in contrast with Joey, who definitely would have to become deaf first).

Fair enough, especially since Janice said that he was her soulmate.

Awww... thanks sweetie! ;)

Well, I am 100% in favour of funny, honest stories.

I just don't know. Why not have a story arc where Phoebe redeems her delinquent sister, only to have her become a successful politician?

Does it have anything to do with an ersatz penis?

It means that lately his record has been a little patchy.

If you wish to argue that the sample is inadequate, then I'll agree.

It doesn't. It indicates that he still yearns to be the father of a nuclear family, in which the mother need not be Rachel. It's not the most brilliant example, but we don't have much to go on, and it is a little similar to the scenario that Janice planted in Rachel's mind.

Oh yes?

Well yes, but we can assume that Janice spoke honestly about herself & Gary?

Well said, yes.

Me too. I'm simply expecting something unexpected to happen instead.

Are you saying that Ross is the same as in 816, but now we know more?

I dunno, especially since that was part of the original version of the finale, as was Janice's maladvice, but TOW Althea's Ring is new.

To me, it's all part of how they arranged the cliffhanger to make it resolvable in as many ways as possible. It's like the break-up in 315, where the writers put in so many ifs and buts that fans still argue about it all these years later.

Thanks.

Do you mean this? (I've edited it down a bit)...

ROSS: Y'know what? Maybe, Mrs.Green, it's not absolutely vital that you live with us.

SANDRA: Well, Rachel needs help with the baby.

  ROSS: Even if she doesn't know anything, I do! I have a son. And his
        mother & I didn't live together, and whenever he was with me I
        took care of him all the time, by myself. The point is, when
        the baby comes I will be there to feed her and bathe her and
        change her. And more than that I want to do all those things.

SANDRA: Well then, you really don't need me to live with you.

RACHEL: Hello?! I still don't know what the hell I'm doing!

  ROSS: Oh, come on, every first time mother feels that way. You're
        gonna pick it up, you will! Uh look, y'know when you first
        came to the city? You were this spoiled helpless little girl
        who-who still used daddy's credit card. Now you're this big
        executive! You are much more capable than you give yourself
        credit for. You're gonna be an incredible mother.

Now, first of all, it is my belief that Ross intends to be a good father who sticks around for many years. And we both know, which the characters do not, that Ross will be close to Rachel (and the other four) for the entire lifetime of this show.

But after listening to Janice, what does Rachel make of the above exchange? It is *possible* to interpret Ross's words as meaning that he will stick around for the eight weeks that Sandra planned for, and after that it will be Capability Green on her own.

Even if Rachel doesn't interpret Ross's promise as harshly as that, there was nothing in there to suggest a *long-term* commitment.

I don't. Neither of us is in a position to know any of this. :)

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

This part was in the broadcast version.

Perhaps I should leave this to Claire, but I think this particular paragraph is the only scene we didn't see. The others were seen here in the US.

This part is in the broadcast version.

This part is in the broadcast version.

And this part is in the broadcast version.

Well the one extra in your list does seem to be significant, in terms of putting a different spin on things.

Not sure what your meaning is here, and I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "TOW Althea's Ring", but I believe all 3 of these elements were in the broadcast version.

On 27 May 2002 05:37:16 GMT, [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

I watched the episode on NBC, and this part was included in the broadcast version. Unless they cut this part in your state, I'm afraid you must have forgotten about it.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) writes:

I watched it too. I must have erased it from my conscious memory for some reason ;-) Hmmm, I wonder what that means ....

OK, I confess! I couldn't live with the J&R implications. For the love of God, woman, Stop the Madness!!!! --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

"JamesS1889" wrote in message news:[email]...

We saw this, Tennant. It was not changed.

paragraph is

This was shown in the United States. Maybe you were out of the room, James, but this is the same.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

There are no extras. Everything cited was shown in the United States.

No, it isn't. I think what happened is that the scene with Judy and Ross was filmed after the audience went home, along with the cliffhanger. BKC did not want it to be well known. I'm not sure how the ring scene being "new" would make Joey's chances better, anyway. If R&J were to be coupled, I think Phoebe would have been silent.

I do not see it the same way you do. This seems much more clear-cut to me than the breakup was. I know you will disagree with me, but this is what I see:

Rachel really wants Ross, as she truthfully told Janice. Ross fearfully rejects her, badly hurting her feelings. Phoebe got Ross to admit he was still in love with Rachel, and she urged him to follow his heart. Judy, in the meantime, basically shoves Family Values down his throat and gives him a little time bomb ring. Phoebe's advice makes Judy's meddling carry more weight. This will serve as a piece of genuine information for Joey, but it misleads Rachel.

Joey carries a torch for Rachel, but he has no support from the others, who generally think Ross and Rachel belong together. Rachel, after a long, painful labor, is rubbed very emotionally raw. Janice, thinking about her own bad experiences with bad men, forecast a frightening future for Rachel where Ross has abandoned her. While her advice is well-intentioned, it is not an accurate reflection of behavior we have seen from Ross in the past. So any decision Rachel currently makes is unreliable; she is neither well-informed nor thinking very clearly. And guys - I've been in labor that long. That is NOT the time to make life decisions. I just wanted to go to sleep.

After Ross' initial rejection, an incredibly vulnerable Rachel pours out her heart to sympathetic Joey. At this point, I take a much more lenient position on Joey than others I've seen. Some folks, seeing that he quietly agreed Ross might abandon Rachel, felt he sold Ross out and advanced his own agenda. There will be those who will scream blue murder if behavior they regard as treacherous proves fruitful. I personally think he just listened without really knowing what to say, and offered the only comfort that occurred to him to give. When he sees the ring, Joey reconsiders Ross' possible true position, and he's stunned. He turns around to show Rachel because it is important that she know, and she jumps to a foolish conclusion that greatly alarms him. Her assent to a proposal he did not give is not particularly enthusiastic; while she's touched by what she thinks has happened, she's clearly settling for a substitute because she thinks what she wants is impossible. There is relief in her face, but not the overwhelming joy that should accompany a marriage assent.

We already know that Joey will absolutely, positively not make a move on Rachel without being certain he has Ross' consent. As Ross is now being portrayed as being in love with Rachel, that has suddenly become far less likely.

I have to say it seems surprising to me that the interpretation of others can differ from mine quite this wildly; here we are genuinely trying to determine what the writers were intending to communicate, and it doesn't seem nearly as ambiguous as The Break did. I do understand that while I am baffled at the controversy, others are certainly entitled to see this differently: Phoebe's advice was bad, Janice was right, Ross is just moved by Emma's birth and doesn't actually love her, Rachel only wanted Ross because she needed moral support, she is actually thinking quite clearly and said yes because she really wants Joey, Rachel has no real love for Ross, Joey is morally permitted to let this continue without being pond scum.

Here's the thing. There IS a right answer this time. Either R&R are genuinely in love or they aren't, and the events of the last season WILL answer that. If they are, Joey will step aside like the mensch he is. If they are not, since Joey also genuinely loves her, he will win.

Rachel has been talking about wanting or needing Ross to Ross AND Janice AND Joey. Phoebe has told Ross that he still loves Rachel. Ross has agreed, and admitted that he only hangs back in order to keep Emma from getting hurt. In order for R&R not to be in love, three different characters must be equally deluded. Is it more likely that everybody is stating falsehoods, or that the confidences they give their closest friends are honest? Apply Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is probably the correct one.

On the other hand, Tennant is right on this score; I think we could be arguing what they SHOULD have done for a long time.

abrahammy wrote:

[snip desciption of scenes]

Am I the only one to think Tennant just described the scenes he thought had been shot without the audience or maybe even re-written/re-shot?

The question is though: does she want Ross solely as a father, or does she want to be with Ross in a romantic way? It seems to me that she is really considering being with Ross again, but the scene with Janice was ambiguous enough to let them get away with Rachel wanting Ross solely as a father so she doesn't have to raise Emma by herself. This is leading to an analysis of nuances that I'm sure the writers never intended to be analysed by us Friends freaks :)

I think this is the main piece of foreshadowing R&R wise. The group does not support the idea of J&R. If Joey went after Rachel, he'd risk losing 4 of his best friends. Not gonna happen.

Andr�

In article , "Andr� Knoche" wrote:

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It does look that way Andr�, so thanks for getting it right.

Tennant

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

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That's right, Claire. It was in the broadcast version. There was no change there. But it was not in the filming report, so I'm assuming that it was not part of the initial shoot.

That's right, Claire. It was in the broadcast version. But it was not in the filming report, so I'm assuming that it was not part of the initial shoot.

Indeed. It was in the broadcast version. But it was not in the filming report, so I'm assuming that it was not part of the initial shoot.

Indeed. It was in the broadcast version. But it was not in the filming report, so I'm assuming that it was not part of the initial shoot.

Indeed. It was in the broadcast version. But it was not in the filming report, so I'm assuming that it was not part of the initial shoot.

I'm afraid Claire, that you have completely misunderstood, in just the same way as James did. You asked me to give you details on how the aired episode differed from the initial shoot. Thus everything I listed was in the broadcast version that I saw, including the "Perfect Woman" scene after which I subtitled my S8-23 review.

It's hard to tell if everything that was filmed after the audience went home was new, or merely old-but-secret. And by "after", we don't know if that was an hour after, a day after, a week after, or a month after.

But if this was merely an old-but-secret cliffhanger that we're talking about, why were the *earlier* scenes also shot at some later date? When people watched those scenes, some of which are in 823, they felt no hint of what was to come.

Neither do I. But the motion is not that the ring scene would make Joey's chances better, the motion is that the ring scene was possibly a response by BKC to the ratings situation.

Thanks.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

I understand now. I am confused, however; how does "the initial shoot" differ from "the stuff they shot in front of a live audience as opposed to the stuff they shot after the audience left so it would be a surprise?

In the case of Judy's ring, I think it's almost certainly because the information involved was too important and controversial to be allowed out before the cliffhanger aired.

I really, really doubt it. I think they wrote what they wanted to and hid the most exciting stuff from the audience so there would be bigger buzz when it actually happend.

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

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We don't know. Maybe the new stuff was shot an hour later to be the surprise. Maybe it was shot a month later to change the course of S9.

All we can say is that the new stuff is radically different in content from the initial shoot, and hence concomitant with a change of course.

That could well be, but the same thing applies to a change of course.

In that case they planned all along to bring Joey back into the equation, and suffered several weeks of lower ratings just to make the fans think that his story had simply been dropped without real closure.

Tennant

In article , "abrahammy" writes:

I was in the room, Claire, I just didn't remember it the way Tennant described it. I just watched again, and now I feel so stupid ;-)

I must say I think some of us (not necessarily you, Claire) are not giving Judy quite enough credit. Her statement, "A child needs a family" seems to me to be the central point of her appearance, and I can find nothing to fault in her motives. As you point out, Claire, Phoebe's pep talk lends weight to Judy's argument. We just assume that she's mainly motivated by puritanical thinking, but in this particular case, I'd have to ask: So What? Ross' counterpoint, both with Judy and with Pheobe, is well-taken as a general point, but he could well be wrong in his own case.

I guess I just want to say that I very much appreciate Judy's sentiment, even if it turns out to be misplaced. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

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That's right.

That's weird James, it was in the broadcast version that I saw.

That's right.

That's right.

And that's right.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood, James. Claire asked me to give her details on how the aired episode differed from the initial shoot. So everything I listed was in the broadcast version that I saw, including the "Perfect Woman" scene after which I subtitled my S8-23 review.

However, they were *not* in the filming report that was published, so I am assuming that they were not in the initial shoot which the anonymous author witnessed. (He or she watched 824 being filmed, after being shown the version of 823 which was current at that time).

"TOW Althea's Ring" is a pet name for the Joey/Rachel/Ross storyline.

Yes, everything that I wrote about was in the broadcast version.

It's all there in the broadcast version.

With the greatest of respect James, I do hope we're not about to become embroiled in yet another round of misunderstanding over this issue. :)

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

Never mind, Tennant, that was a brain-cramp on my part. My evil twin is insisting that I'm denying the J&R implications of it, but he's wrong ;-)

OK, you cleared that up for me. I'm not sure why the distinction you *are* making is important, but I'm sure you have your reasons.

Makes sense. As has been surmised, these scenes were apparently felt to be too spoilerish for the studio audience. But that only matters to them, not to the overwhelming majority of TV viewers who only saw the finished product, no?

I got that much. The rest is part of my confusion which you have now cleared up for me.

No, what is brand new to me regarding 315 is "where the writers put in so many ifs and buts that fans still argue about it all these years", presumably "to make it resolvable in as many ways as possible."

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

Tennant Stuart > writes:

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Okay.

It's what Claire asked me to do, then she misunderstood in the same way as you. I was getting a bit worried, until Andr� understood me. :)

Maybe, but it's concomitant with being a later modification to the plot.

Okay. :)

Oh, you know, who was right and who was wrong, Mark & Chloe, all that sort of stuff. I'm sure you've seen the arguments over the years.

That refers to the choices the writers made for themselves in 901.

Good. :)

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

I understand that part, but I missed *why* such a distinction was important to the question of where the show might or might not be headed with respect to R&R vs. R&J.

Again, my question is, why is that significant?

No, I am familiar with that, but I thought you guys were saying that the writers in 315 left all kinds of flexibility *for themselves* so they could decide how to proceed after that episode, and that is what was brand new to me.

That such episodes sparked all kinds of never ending debates I am quite familiar with, trust me, since I have been in the middle of my fair share ;-)

I was asking how the writers were trying to do that in 315. I can see clearly how they were trying to do that in 824.

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

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The idea is that scenes not witnessed by the studio audience were filmed at some later point in time. Possibly an hour later, possibly a month later. And if the latter, then presumably that was to change the plot to make it less RnRish and more JnRish.

Of course, we don't know that, but it is concomitant with the hypothesis that the overall plot was changed.

Ah, no. In 315 it was more like flexibility over which character was at fault - Ross, Rachel, both, or neither. It was just a larger version of "Got the keys." vs "Got the keys?" in 109 "TOW Underdog Gets Away".

Yeah.

Fair enough, James. :)

We're just fine. :)

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

Well, anything is possible, as the saying goes. I doubt your hypothesis is true, but you are entitled to it.

Hmmm... maybe we should try applying Occam's Razor to this ;-)

Well, see, to me that's not much of a connection to what you were saying about the cliffhanger. I view 315 as giving *us* flexibility over which character was at fault. There's not much reason to think that BKC *cared* about that as they supervised the writing of the remainder of season 3. Your comment about 823/824 was: "To me, it's all part of how they arranged the cliffhanger to make it resolvable in as many ways as possible."

If you meant "resolvable" by *us*, then I see your connection. But to me, plot resolution is their job, not mine. It sounded to me like you were suggesting that BKC was leaving *themselves* flexibility for how to write the 9th season, and that is certainly possible. But I don't see any indication that that is what they did in 315.

OK, it sounds like here you have resolved *my* hangup with this particular conversational thread. If so, just ignore the above ;-) --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

"JamesS1889" wrote in message news:[email]...

her

including

headed

is

I have already suggested that.

Several scenes were indeed filmed without an audience; according to the filming report I read, the audience was asked to leave and then production continued. The scenes which the audience did not see all related heavily to the cliffhanger, which the producers wished to keep a secret. Somehow I think if they wanted this to be a cliffhanger which boded well for J&R, the ring should not have belonged to Ross, Ross should not have been talked into admitting he still loved Rachel, ALL the Friends should not have dismissed Joey's feelings as inappropriate, Joey should actually have intended to propose, and Rachel should have said something a little more enthusiastic and tender than "OK."

I still liked my idea of Rachel making a sudden pass at Joey better. Hey, if it's gonna be R&J, at least the event should be intentional and actually leave you in suspense.

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

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Fair enough.

Well, at its simplest, Claire announced that the Joey/Rachel story was completely over, since she'd read the spoilers from 818 onwards.

Then the ratings nosedive by seven million viewers.

When the finale comes out, Rachel agrees to marry Joey.

I'm just saying that BKC seem to prefer ambiguous situations.

Oh, okay. :)

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

Sorry, I don't buy that one.

Claire may have announced it. BKC never did. Claire's announcement cannot be used to argue that BKC changed their mind because of falling ratings. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

"JamesS1889" wrote in message news:[email]...

[email]

hypothesis

cannot be

Oh my word. Quite a nice array of giggles.

OK, folks. I made a prediction. I read a bunch of spoilers through about *822* and they indicated that momentum had shifted to R&R - which it certainly had. Five episodes where J&R was ignored. That made me guess that J&R was over. If I understand Tennant correctly, he's saying that because I truthfully said I knew what direction they were going, it may be inferred that I had absolute knowledge of every single scene they had shot? And therefore, any scenes that I didn't know about were by definition added as a hysterical reaction to the ratings weeks after the rest of the story had been shot?

Huh?

Well, (grin) I'm sorry I gave off that impression. I was reading tea leaves based on the evidence I had, that's all. People who actually went to the last taping did say they threw out the audience and then continued.

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

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Well, you're the one that wanted to keep it simple.

It just seems remarkable to me that people who were proclaiming loudly that nothing would happen, now claim that it was planned all along.

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

Keeping it simple is one thing. Inventing connections is another.

Who is it that is claiming now that it was planned all along that was also claiming that nothing would happen before *and* whose first initial is B, K, or C??????

If the "who" you are talking about in both cases is Claire, how does that have anythinig to do with changing the plot of the finale due to falling ratings? For that matter, where is there any inconsistency at all? All I see is the phenomenon of "updating one's perspective with new information".

Dude, I think you are seeing things that aren't there. That violates Occam's Razor. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

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I'm not inventing anything, it's a theory.

And all I see is people falling over to contradict themselves.

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

It's a theory that Claire's opinions in this newsgroup are connected to or influencing BKC's thought processes????????? That is not keeping it simple. In fact, it is doing the exact opposite.

Which people? Not me, and not Claire, that's for sure.

BKC? Based on what evidence? People in this newsgroup? Take your pick: (A) What else is new? (B) What does that have to do with BKC making decisions on how the plot should proceed? --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

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I didn't say that. You're making it complicated by creating connections.

All the people who insisted that Joey & Rachel were over.

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

You said:
**************************************************************************
**********************
Me> Hmmm... maybe we should try applying Occam's Razor to this ;-)

Well, at its simplest, Claire announced that the Joey/Rachel story was completely over, since she'd read the spoilers from 818 onwards.

Then the ratings nosedive by seven million viewers.

When the finale comes out, Rachel agrees to marry Joey.
**************************************************************************
***********************

Now, just how exactly have I misinterpreted this????????

I contend that the simplest explanation is that BKC have always planned it this way. Your statement awhile back that this means that they intentionally suffered poor ratings is a reasonable counter-parry. The above makes no sense to me because I can't tell what your underlying point is. What exactly is the connection between Claire's prediction and the ratings nosedive?????

I am aware of people insisting that Joey & Rachel were over. I am aware of *no one* now contradicting themselves in this regard.

I think the simplest explanation there is what Claire said. Predictions were made, they were obviously wrong. People are allowed to change their minds, you know. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

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We're going round in circles here. I did not say that there was such a connection, so there's no point in telling me that I did.

What I'm saying is that *now* I'm being told that the simplest explanation is that BKC have always planned it this way, and yet *then* Claire and others were hotly denying that such a thing would happen. Get it?

Oh, big deal, now that they've seen the finale.

That's fine, of course people can change their minds. But ISTM that what people are claiming to be obvious after the fact is what they denied before the fact, while denying BKC the same facility.

In all the weeks after 816, when some JnR fans complained about a lack of closure, I assured them that was because their story was not over.

When the RnR fans insisted that I was wrong, Joey had fallen out of love with Rachel, and BKC would now bring RnR together, they denied my prediction that we would hear more of JnR by the end of S8 or the start of S9. When challenged how I knew, I said that BKC would take notice of the fall in ratings due to RnR stories.

You don't have to accept that ratings analysis James, but the fact remains that my prediction came true, and other people's did not.

Tennant

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

I had no idea Claire was that influential. :)

Not with much enthusiasm though.

If the situation isn't resolved immediately in 9-1, I fear we'll get stuck with a story of Rachel realising she's made a mistake, and agonising over how to let Joey down.

"Paul Hyett" wrote in message news:[email]...

Gotta tell you the truth, Paul, neither did I. The power... the awesome responsibility...

Now, why can't I use this to do something useful, like solve the Middle East crisis?

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

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Lol, I didn't mean that - although she has influenced me a few times.

Anything more would have been unrealistic.

This is a new situation for her.

Well, let's see...

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

Ben was in 812 as well, Ross dropped him off at Monica's

Andr�

In article , "Andr� Knoche" wrote:

You have now been reinstated. You can thank Priya for this.

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Oops, thanks. I missed that one, since I checked the speaking parts.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

I appreciate her effort, however you make it sound like you have been forced to unkillfile me?

Glad to be of help :)

Andr�

"Andr� Knoche" wrote in message news:actjfj$65u$[email]...

I think you are the beneficiary of star diplomacy. GREAT work, Priya!

abrahammy wrote:

Worst part is: I don't even know how I came to deserve Priya bugging Tennant so much about unkillfiling me until he did... :)

Andr�

In article , "Andr� Knoche" wrote:

She didn't bug me, she just talked nicely to me.

Tennant

In article , "Andr� Knoche" wrote:

Oh no, sorry. I wasn't forced at all, it was purely my decision, but Priya is a very nice lady.

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Good.

Tennant

On Sat, 25 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as abrahammy typed this -

That's how I see almost every apparent 'nasty Chandler' moment.

Especially as Carol wasn't involved...

me2

I really must upload the scripts - I haven't for several seasons.

Good question. She was supposed to direct the episode that was filmed on March 15th, The One With the Baby Shower. I guess after they signed their contracts, she decided to move her directing debut to next year. I will check with my contact and get back to you later.

In article , "AirPurifier" wrote:

In article , Tennant Stuart wrote:

Tusen takk!

Tennant

Why wasn't Ben there to met his new little sister?

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

In article , "Paula" wrote:

Paula, PLEASE don't post plot-related comments above the spoiler space. I know that what you said was only slightly spoilerish for anyone who has seen the last several episodes, but there are many millions of fans around the world who haven't seen Season 8 yet.

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Because his father doesn't have custody, so he can't keep the little boy hanging around the maternity ward, day & night?

Tennant

I wish he had been. However, this episode was amazing, & there was so much material to work with that I believe they simply couldn't fit it in.

--DanG

In article , Dan Ginsburg wrote:

Dan, PLEASE don't delete the spoiler space.

There are many millions of fans who have not seen this season yet.

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That would make Ross a bad father.

Well, the extended DVD will soon be out in Europe. :)

Tennant

Sorry. :( I'm new to this alt group thing, & I haven't completely caught on yet. I didn't realize I'd deleted it.

On Sun, 26 May 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

He'll see her soon enough.

I assume he *does* know about her, though it has not come up in the programme.

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

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Yah.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

You told me to ask for the line above spoiler space. :)

I guess it's okay to say Ross's line in here. "Not just Janice, Janice in labor, contracting and everything!" DS was so funny.

For a person who's almost deaf, everyone spoke in a normal voice. He didn't come off like a person who is hard on hearing to me.

Janice sounded like she was braying when she was huffing and puffing through her contraction.

Yeah, she's wants to get fertilised in a sterile place. :)

Oh yes, Janice did sound like she was braying didn't she? LOL

I heard "whose *unwitting* human essence you've stolen?". I watched the episode again and I'm pretty sure thats what he said. Unwilling is a little harsh.

I think I started saying his name along with Janice. "Chandler Bing!" I loved their little scene.

If she does get pregnant because of their closet activity, they can hardly their child about it. Maybe it's the reason, Judy and Jack told Ross that he was a medical marvel while the truth was their dog ate Judy's diaphram.

Yeah, can't blame her. She was in there long enough.

Aww.. poor princess..

Is that how it goes. Lemme look again. <checks> Okay. Anyway, even otherwise this is a kiss that was brought out by the birth of their daughter. Not to be mistaken for romance.

A few episodes back, we were wondering if they'll name the baby after Monica's middle name, so that we learn what that E stands for. We don't know if Emma is Monica's middle name but you listed Emma under possible baby names!! :)

Awww.. Monica was very sweet indeed. The exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. She had picked out names for her babies in high school. When her aunt gave birth and they were stuck for names, she gave them the name she had chosen for her son. She's a little bummed about it because she hasn't found another perfect name yet. :)

Some naughty sex jokes here but Cliff doesn't look too interesting to me. I sure don't want to see him next season.

If Joey wasn't in it, Phoebe's story would have been a snoozefest, not the miracle of birth.

How ugly could her baby have been? Janice is certainly not ugly and her husband wasn't a bad looking guy. Ross and Rachel should know better than to comment on a baby's nose; Little Emma might have her mother nose.

Another divorce joke about Ross. Somehow, I always find them funny. "It's Ross, he gets a divorce". LOL

This Rachel is scared about her future is in contrast to 801 where she decided that she wanted to have the baby. Of course, she has only just given birth. Once she gets back home and she may decide that she doesn't need the daddy hanging around much. :)

Besides, Rachel might get married again too. Granted it a little difficult for single moms to find the right guy but here we have someone who would "never let that happen". :)

Let's see. Ross is at the hospital. Hours after the birth of his daughter, he's chatting up a pretty nurse. If he had an ounce of feelings for Rachel, he wouldn't be doing that. Damn that Phoebe!

I didn't buy that Ross is in love with Rachel. Even last episode, it was Rachel who was shown to have some feelings for Ross. We had no such indication from Ross. Even in this episode, Phoebe has to push him to bring back his fantasies since he was fifteen. Having just experienced the birth of his daughter, he would be on an emotional high and would love the woman who brought his child into the world regardless but asking him to go after Rachel in that situation isn't very smart. Should they decide to do it after a few months, it'd be more believable.

Ahh, the much awaited Joey/Rachel scene. I thought the way Joey consoled Rachel was very good and realistic. When a woman starts to complain and mope about, you'd do well to just assure her you're there for her, instead of correcting her which might annoy her. This is where Ross and Joey differ.

Ross has to fill out a planetarium with lilies to get it right and Joey's bags it with a non-proposal! LOL

I was pretty sure that Joey would stick the ring back into the jacket and play dumb while being secretly heart broken again. I think he was so caught off guard by the ring and it jerked him emotionally that he unwittingly turned around and revealed the ring to Rachel.

I didn't think it was a very good cliffhanger initially but I guess, it's not what is going to happen in 901 but how they will handle the first episodes in dealing with this situation. We all know that Joey will be quick to correct Rachel. Even if Ross walks in and misunderstands, that too will be quickly resolved. If he decides to step back, that wouldn't work either because Joey & Rachel would know he wanted to propose.

The real question is how these Friends will intrepret and handle the events in that hospital? :)

Don't give so much credit. Without Joey, her story would have really stunk. This woman needs to pick up her guitar and sing "Smelly Cat". Why didn't she write a song in celebration of Emma's birth and insist on playing it in the hospital and drive the staff nuts??

We may see more of Chandler and Monica's story next season but I'm not too sure. Paul Hyett says that an infertility story maybe too much of an emotional strain on CCA having supposedly had two miscarriages. But they can't exactly get her pregnant having just had an entire season about pregnancy? They might just drop this story.

Well Said! Implications being the operative word. :)

And which actor did the Drake Ramoray gig? MLB was fine throught out.

Yep. Definitely an Emmy worthy performance. She was amazing as the woman in labor.

Come on, giving birth is hard enough, you want her to direct as well? :)

She may take that role next season in an episode when her character doesn't demand so much screen time.

Do season finale's with cliffhangers have a tag scene?

Yes but she might have married that guy after getting pregnant. Maybe thats how she nabbed him.

Hmmm.. I don't clearly remember her nasal tone in 707. So, I'll go with the braying noise.

I don't think it was understandable at all. Janice said he can't hear unless you speak loudly but he'd be able to make out that she sounds weird if not that she is loud.

Ah, but Chandler was her Bing-a-ling!! :)

I was busy laughing to think. :)

Maybe her doctor was just as dumb as mine was.

Nah! 26 hours on the delivery table would have called for some sort of emergency c-section. Chandler was just exaggerating for effect.

Do guys name their daughters after their favorite actresses? If so, I know what you'll name your daughter. j/k

I remembered that Isabella was from Ross's list but was Daniel in Rachel's list?

Could be. They could drop a line about this next season.

Can you blame the guy? He was afraid that his daughter maybe named Tootsie!!

Doesn't Emma Bing sound like I'm-a-Bing? :)

Yes, I thought it was good until someone asked "Is A Bell A Bing?" :)

Yep. Either they didn't realise that or did that purposely to get a few jokes out of it next season. I can just imagine it. If Rachel makes dinosaur jokes, Ross just has to say, "You are the one who laid the EGG!"

OMG! It's been that long? Sheesh.

Because Rachel wouldn't want to let her little EGG anywhere near a woman who wants give gum to her baby.

Hehe, yes but we had more fun watching the closet events even though it was PG.

Jury's still out on that one.

Yep.

Yay! You finally have a last name for Janice. :) I thought it would be spelled something like Lippman, which is what I've seen in most movie credits.

Lol. How will our Friends react to such a turn of events?

Well, the little girl might have her aunt's good looks and will be spared the nose job.

Janice was way off base and Rachel was too panicked to analyse the situation correctly. Ross has been a good dad to Ben. We've seen him this season. He was picking him up at school and knew about the problems he was having at school.

Yeah, she wasn't too nasally.

I thought the reference to his childhood wishes was pretty lame? Do you tell a guy in his thirties to go for his childhood sweetheart? Had she said that Rachel was the love of his life and he should go after her, that would have been okay.

Joey was there for her, just comforting her.

Yep. 100% At least, they write Joey consistantly. Thank goodness.

I think my mouth dropped open. I don't think any sound came out of it. :)

Without a doubt, unless this was Joey's evil twin we saw in the scene.

I don't think so. Should Joey decide to go after Rachel, he wouldn't ask Ross anymore because he's already done that.

hehe. Maybe the next season opener will have Ross moping about Rachel's new boyfriend?

Bringing flowers doesn't equate to a proposal. He might just be coming to tell Rachel that Phoebe has got this weird little notion that they should work things out.

Maybe. A reunion, *if* there should be one, should be gradual. They date for a while, then propose and possibly marry at the end of the serial.

How do you mean? They filmed R&R marriage proposal and scrapped it later on to add Joey to the scene? I doubt that very much.

Nice number.

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

Good girl, here it is...

I squealed.

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Yes, anything to do with Janice after her arrival is Part 2.

But of course. Meanwhile, in another universe...

..she's about to have his very hairy child!

Yeah, but they didn't want him to hear what they said, and he didn't.

Lol, but she wasn't as bad as in 707, as I've mentioned below.

Lol, yes! Brilliant!

Indeedy!

I forget now what I originally heard him say, but when I wrote my review, I pasted the line from Jean Liew's transcript, which says "unwilling". But you are quite right, Chandler says "unwitting".

Yeah, but "unwitting human whose essence you've stolen" is also harsh!

Yeah, Janice is great. But I'm still hoping that before this series ends, she will return with a velvet voice, and score with Joey.

tell?

their child about it. Maybe it's the reason, Judy and Jack told

Another mystery solved! ;)

I know! Nine months pregnancy is long enough. 10 days overdue is much too much. And 21 hours in labour is simply not fair.

Absolutely, that's what made this story work. And in a curious way her ordeal was reminiscent of the seeming impossibility of attempting to push a whole pizza box through the entrance of a trash chute. (404)

Exactly. The baby has forged a special bond between them, but that is a different sort of relationship altogether.

I did, yes! However, in all truth I must admit that I also listed Edith, Edwina, Eileen, Eleanor, Elizabeth, Estelle, Esther, Eunice, and Eve.

Ulsch. Why don't girls in high school also pick out names for other people's babies, and then when a friend or relative is stuck, pretend the names are for their own babies? Maybe that's what Monica did!

Me2. Boringamundo.

Indeedy, except it wasn't Joey who made it interesting, but Drake.

Exactly!!!!!!

Oh, sure. In fact my fave is a sarcastic remark by Chandler, but it didn't grate since it was an apposite thing to say...

RACHEL: I cannot believe you didn't say that we're still married!!

ROSS: I was going to tell you!

RACHEL: When?! After the birth of our first secret child?

CHANDLER: Ross, just for my own piece of mind, you're not married to any more of us are ya? (605)

She was very scared at the end of 724.

Could be, but she'll have to find somewhere else to live...

Good point.

Where's that quote from?

Exactly, but do you remember this?

CHANDLER: You slept with somebody three hours after you thought you broke up. I mean bullets have left guns slower! (319)

Bear in mind that we do *not* know what those flowers are for.

I so agree. I just do not buy the assertion that Ross lied to his first two wives that he was in love with them. I'll accept that he was in love with Rachel before, in between, and after them, but not during. So that means that he has *not* been in love with Rachel ever since he was 15.

It wouldn't be a smart thing for Ross to do, and we don't know that he is doing that - but *asking* him to do that could be a smart thing for Phoebe to do. It's in her best interests to sort this thing out.

Don't you mean "much hoped-for Joey/Rachel scene"?

I had no idea that it was coming, partly since you or Marita warned me not to read Claire's post (15th March in my S8-16 thread) that she has seen the spoilers right up to the finale, and so "this story is over".

It made you rightfully annoyed about ruining the story for you - but at least by the (possibly revised) end of S8 she turned out to be wrong.

Exactly, this is a lesson I've had to learn myself, as most guys have had to do, (though we like to hear good solutions to our problems), but in the defence of Ross & Chandler, they can be good listeners too. Yet MLB made Joey so warm & sincere, that suddenly the world seemed a safer place.

Lol yes, but Chandler's record is pretty up-and-down also.

As for the planetarium of lilies, that worked because it was his idea from way back, when he was really head-over-heels in love with Rachel.

Oh for sure, but I didn't have *any* ideas about what Joey was going to do, since I was frozen in bug-eyed surprise, and then I squealed.

It is *so* worth all the hassle to be a spoiler virgin! :)

Don't be so sure. Given normal circumstances, of course he'll correct her - but past season openers have taught us to be more circumspect.

No, Joey would *assume* Ross wanted to propose, and *if* Rachel is told that the ring is Ross's, then she *might* assume the same thing - but in any case Ross could immediately tell them what his mother did, whether or not he was planning to propose, which maybe he wasn't.

Indeedy.

And bear in mind that we don't know what Chandler & Monica are doing.

Lol, that's true, but being boring might not keep Cliff away.

Yes!!!

I guess because they did that seven years ago.

Well, CCA is six years older than Monica, so they might just display the caption "SIX YEARS LATER". Then we would see Monica with 5yo Daniel, and Rachel with 6yo Emma. Rachel is married to either Ross or Joey, but the writers keep us guessing about which one it is.

Thanks, sweetie!

Absolutely.

Yes, she made a striking image, her legs up like that.

Hehe.

Could be.

Season 3 did, (Monica turns down a date with little Dorf); but it was my mistake to say "tag" instead of "ending".

Ooh, excellent point, it does happen. At least Mrs.Gorelnik didn't have to show up at St.Vincent's with a little prezzie for her son.

Oh no, you've missed the point, sweetie. Janice *usually* has a nasal tone, but to her that's normal. In 707, she fretted about having to sleep without a hypoallergenic comforter, and became what to her was nasal, and to us was this hideous sound...

Of course. When she raised her voice for his benefit, he would hear her in much the same as we do, when she speaks at a normal volume.

Lol yes, but she slept with Ross more than two years after Chandler.

Me2

Oh dear! What happened?

Fair enough.

Awww... you're so cute! :)

Yep, Daniel Day-Lewis.

Please please please please please please please please please please!

Well, he shouldn't have been! Monica is a romantic.

Yes! It does!

I knowwww!

ROTFL!!!

I'm afraid so, the eyedrops story in 522 "TOW Joey's Big Break".

Why not?

Oh, okay. Incidentally, that scene is a little longer on the DVD. If you look closely at the very start, you'll see Ross trying to open the door with his credit card. Well, Susan tells him that he's doing it too hard, so he gets a bit stroppy with her, and retorts that it has to be done hard, or else - and at that point his card snaps in two!

Yep.

Grin.

I know! I'm so happy! But was it Gary's last name, or her father's?

Ah, in fact lots of people are telling me it sounds more like Lit(t)man.

The stats from the IMDb are Lipman 32, Lippman 19, Litman 7, Littman 13.

What do you think?

I dunno, but Pheebs is left out until her father's son's son marries Daniel's mother's brother's daughter's husband's mother's daughter.

Ah-hah! There are no flies on you, Dimple-cheeks! Absolutely!

Yes yes, good points.

Indeed so.

Well, that's pretty much what Joey told Ross eight years ago, so after screwing up his courage, Ross checked with Rachel if it would be okay if he asked her out. She was happy with the idea, and then she waited, and she waited, and she waited...

Yep. Good. :)

Well, they did then.

Lol

Hans Ramoray?

Yes, except that he knows it isn't his ring.

Could be, but there's no way he could be as totally brilliant as Rachel was at the start of Season 2, when she so stole the show.

But he might have more luck with Mozzarella than Joey did.

Yep. And people do bring flowers to people in hospital.

Yes, if.

Why not? They could have six different endings in that vault.

Yep, and meaningful.

Tennant

Sorry, I couldn't get around to replying for ages.

I think my mouth dropped open. I don't think any sound came out of it. :)

Uh oh...

Right.

Ta fish.

Yes, but it's not as bad as unwilling.

Her hat trick...

Yeah... <sheepish smile>

Yay! :)

Well, it happens to a lot of women. I had heard spoiler rumors that said, Rachel would have the longest labor in the history of the hospital. If that had happened, then I might have felt sorry for her.

The miracle of birth and a pizza box down a trash chute... I see the similarities. ;)

Absolutely.

Yes but I listed all the E names I liked and left out Emma, you didn't. :) I had a dream a few weeks ago that in the next season, they change the baby's name from Emma to Rise. Yeah, I was a coffee shop and they just kept playing that song over and over. I guess it got to me. :)

Monica's always wanted a big family. Wouldn't she have picked out more than two names?

Yep. :)

Hehe

Right.

She was scared of being found out that she's pregnant. She had already made the decision to keep the baby by then.

That's not a big deal. She's got Friends who'll help her out, not to mention Gunther.

Joey says that to her when he's comforting her.

He was drunk when he slept with Chloe. I've never thought Ross was at fault there, which is why, I don't know what to say in the other break thread. :)

True.

Exactly. I couldn't have been in love with Rachel when he was married to Carol or Emily.

Really?

I didn't know the scene was coming either. I just knew something had to happen between them since we were assured by Kevin Bright and Marta Kauffman that the story wasn't over. :)

Exactly. Knowing Rachel, that was the route to take. Remember how annoyed she was with Ross in 807, when he told her that Braxton Hicks was nothing worry about? She was pleased with Joey who went along with her to put her fears to rest. I guess he knows to handler her better.

Oh yes, Chandler does hold the record with his "It's a four!". :)

BOC.

I didn't have any ideas either but my mind was just racing ahead. :)

:)

I can only imagine one way where he wouldn't correct her is if someone bursts into the room, assumes the worst and leaves before Joey gets to put things right. It could be Ross, his parents, the other Friends or even Janice...

Okay, so what will Joey do in that situation?

Joe: "Ross, since you weren't going to propose, do you mind if I borrowed the ring? She's already said okay." :P

Right.

Ugh! I know.

I know! :)

Phoebe has changed so much, I don't think anyone likes this new version of her. I hope we get to see the old Phoebe.

Yes, but we could have had a variation of that. She could have got into Rachel's room and played her music to ease Rachel's pain. It would have been fun to see how Phoebe reacted to all the other patients.

Mmmm.. Nope. They can do this at the end for one or two episodes, maybe, but not for an entire season. They've already said that, they won't be doing a hipper version of Full House. :)

Ah, okay.

If Mrs.Gorelnik had ever met Janice, she wouldn't do that. :)

I've seen since watched 707 again, the braying here isn't so bad. :)

Exactly. He would know that she has a nasal tone. Chandler wasn't deaf and he was with Janice for quite some time wasn't he?

At the end of her relationship with the two of them, Chandler was the 'Endless Love', Ross just got whiney.

Because of a wrong reading on a sonogram, she thought that my baby had grown smaller than it was the month before...

Okay.

Grin.

I guess.

Well, any name after Emma would sound that way.

Are you sure? What about their story in TOO The Last Night?

You don't give gum to a baby.

Lol. At least Chandler's credit card didn't break in 814.

Aargh!!! :)

You could use Lipman since it has the highest score.

Frank Junior Junior marrying Janice's daughter? Does Janice even have a daughter? Is this the hairy daughter she has with Ross? ;)

Ta.

And wrong spelling. :)

Sigh.

I meant emotional consistancy; his intelligence has been inconsistant although many of those instances are subject to personal interpretation.

But Hans is Drake Ramorays evil twin.

I just hope Ross and Joey can get through this.

Yep, she was "spit you on the neck, kick you on the crotch fantastic". :)

Mozzarella? I forget, what was Joey doing with cheese in that episode ?

True.

married

And that's a big IF.

Yes, you've told me that they did that for the season six finale. Perhaps they did that because it could have very well been the series finale. I guess, we'll only know for sure when the season eight R1 Dvds come out.

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

No worries sweetie, you're worth waiting for. :)

Lol, such wonders...

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Yeah, they could do a fantasy episode where they're all married & have children - Ross & Janice, Monica & Ethan, Rachel & Gunther, Chandler & Joanna, Joey & Ursula, Phoebe & her first husband (to hear his name).

Well, I've changed it now, so thanks for the correction.

Exactly, and also as a favour to Maggie Wheeler, who is really nice.

<wolfish grin>

:)

Well, I'd hate the idea of having to blow a Saint Bernard out of my ass.

They are similar. The big difference was when the pizza box was too big to go through the hole, Rachel simply gave up and left it for someone else to do the job for her. Here, she was forced to do the job herself.

Right.

Ah well, that's how it goes, Dimple-cheeks.

Weird...

Oh, good point. Fast-on-her-feet Monica must have been holding back!

In 303 "TOW the Jam", (when only Joey was clever enough to talk Monica out of her desperate plan to visit a sperm bank), they talked about her having two girls & a boy. This means she had another girl's name in reserve.

Oh sorry, but I don't believe that. Not only had she probably not thought as far as what her daddy would say, it took Phoebe's risky little game in 801 to make Rachel know how she really felt about it. At the end of 724 she was just scared, plain & simple.

Yep, that's what I meant - not Gunther, but Monica.

Oh okay. He didn't actually say that quote, while both Rachel & Ross *did* say something like it. No criticism of you, but that's why I was puzzled.

Well, I reckon that when people are drunk, they stop pretending.

Yap.

Yep.

Indeedy, clear out his baggage, once and for all.

Ah, but that was talking about Season 9. 824 could have finished with Ross bringing flowers, while Joey sat in the waiting room, looking worried.

That's right, and his reward is that she becomes sweet Karen for him.

Also, for those who won't believe that Joey can put on a dumb act, here he put on a calm act, (i.e. when his sisters were pregnant it was always nothing but they'll stop by the hospital just to be sure), when in fact he had never been more scared in all his life.

Hehe, that is the best proposal of the eleven so far.

At least, I *think* it's eleven, here's the league table...

P W L

   Chandler   4   2   2   (123/515/524/625)
   Ross       3   2   1   (000/419/803)
   Joey       3   1   2   (802/802/824)
   Rachel     1   1   0   (605)
   Monica     1   0   1   (625)
   Phoebe     0   0   0

Gosh.

That's very possible, as is something else entirely, which we don't know.

Expect the unexpected. :b

Good.

Marita says his actor has signed up for three more episodes.

She'll never be the same again, not after giving up all three babies.

I guess so, but no.

Yeah, I've heard that, but I've never seen "Full House".

Janice is a nice person.

What, even when she became nasal beyond nasal?

He was, not just during 224-308, but for goodness knows how long up until 105. And Gary was probably with her for even longer.

Well, yes.

Weird! Can that happen?

You mean, "I'm a yellow-green"?

That was a Monica/Rachel/Phoebe story.

Oh. Well, what about Ben?

Lol, exactly.

Can't we tell from the order?

That's what I wanted to do, but people told me the name definitely sounded like it was Lit(t)man, not Lip(p)man.

No, she has a daughter by Gary, we saw her in 303 "TOW the Jam", IIRC.

Where?

Exactly.

Sure.

Okay then, who?

I'm sure they will.

Lol.

The dog.

Exactly.

It's an iffy if.

With commentary? We wish. BTW, the new S1 DVDs are R0, not R1. :)

Tennant

p r i y a wrote in message news:[email]...

departs,

Well, I finally got around to replying to say that my first labor was 40 hours long, 2 of that was pushing. Luckily my son was 3 days early, but 40 hours was still way too long. By the end, I had been breathing badly for so long that they forced me to wear an oxygen mask (my son's heartrate was starting to drop). Mine wasn't breach, but it turned out that he was 9 lb 3 oz with a very large head.

Tana

:)

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Oh my.

YW

Okay.

Are we doing animal impressions again? :)

How would it get there in the first place...

Well, she did a great job.

Or she gave away fake names after the incident on their honeymoon.

Yep. Also, Chandler mentions wanting to have four kids, she must have had names picked out for four kids.

Believe what? That she hadn't decided to keep the baby till Phoebe played her risky game? When she drank Champagne, she spat it out. If she didn't want to keep it, why would she bother?

I saw 801 again and stand corrected. She was scared when Monica told her all about the realities of single motherhood just as Janice did in this episode. However, at the end of 724, she was just scared of being found out.

I said Gunther because he offered his apartment to her once.

Okay, Joey said "you are never ever gonna be alone. Okay? I promise that�s not gonna happen". I guess I sort of crunced all that into 'never let that happen'. :)

They could also not know what the hell they're doing.

Actually, I wanted to say "Damn it, Phoebe!" like Joey does in the episode where Ross slept with Janice. He said that for putting ideas in his head. Here, she does it again. lol

Okay but she's seems to be packing him in it.

Well, I'm glad I don't think like you. j/k

hehe, I guess so.

You're forgetting Rachel's proposal to Joshua. :)

Isn't it sweet that Chandler proposed to the same woman four times? aww...

BOC

I am. :)

Yeah, I read that.

Yep, this bitter model of Phoebe is not working. Sigh.

Just a suggestion.

I've seen only the earlier seasons of the show and I liked what I saw. I used to watch a lot of TV once, now hardly watch anything.

If Mrs. Gorelnik was like Judy, she wouldn't care, would she?

Here it was funny, in 707, you want her to leave ASAP.

Right.

I dunno. It doesn't seem very likely. But my doctor didn't actually suggest that it had grown smaller. Instead of rechecking the current scan, she discounted the earlier scans and declared that my baby was small, put me as a high risk patient, had a specialist called in. Fortunately, the specialist took only a few minutes to find the problem and I changed my doctor.

?

I knew you'd say that. :)

Maybe, that's why she didn't say that again.

I'm not really into the name thing, sorry. :)

Okay.

But it looked like a boy.

My English teacher sent me a note. ;)

Ken Adams

Okay.

Keep talking...

hehe

Right.

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

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I knowww.

Do you wanna?

Okay, I have *not* thought as far as that!

But she had to.

Oh, another good point.

Exactly.

She hadn't thought it through.

No, she was just scared.

Yes, but she'd never accept him, would she?

That's right. It was just unfortunate that there was also...

RACHEL: That's never gonna happen.

..and...

ROSS: We can't let that happen again.

..which were so close.

If Ross could get it up, he knew what he was doing.

Lol yes.

Lol

:)

Thanks.

Oh, I am! Thankyou! I'll try again...

P W L

   Chandler   4   2   2   (123/515/524/625)
   Ross       3   2   1   (000/419/803)
   Joey       3   1   2   (802/802/824)
   Rachel     2   1   1   (420/605)
   Monica     1   0   1   (625)
   Phoebe     0   0   0

..any more?

Awww.... yes, it is. Our hero. He got a little bit nearer each time.

While Ross proposed to three different women, all disasters in the end.

Good.

Where?

Well, I know what would sweeten her...

Okay.

Oh.

Too busy, or nothing on?

And if Mrs. Gorelnik wasn't like Judy, she would care, wouldn't she?

Yeah, sorry - I thought you'd said "the braying there isn't so bad."

Right. :)

Eeshk. Good for you, sweetie.

If "Emma Bing" sounds like "I'm a Bing", then ""Emma Geller-Green" sounds like "I'm a yellow-green".

Grin. So why did you ask? ;)

Eep, what happened to Ben?

Oh. Okay.

It might have been a boy, playing the part of a girl.

Lol, perhaps you'd better read the note again, it looks fine to me. :)

Lol! Of course.

JOEY: Oh, that's, uh, that's Phoebe's friend's dog. I don't know what his real name is, but I call him Mozzarella. (815)

It's a neat play on words, as in "Mutt" and "Cinderella".

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

hehe

Remember MTLBYAKY? Imagine if it's your breakfast, you'd die trying to get it out of you...

Ta. :)

She was considering it at the least. That says something.

Of what? You have to be scared of something.

If he had a nice two bedroom apartment, she might.

Ah, okay.

Aargh! I've always thought Ross can't be blamed for sleeping with Chloe because he was too drunk to know what he was doing. I can't believe it never occurred to me all this time.

Damn it, Phoebe! :)

Well, I can't remember any more. I think that's it. Maybe you ought to check with Marita.

Yep.

3 is not a lucky number for him.

In one of her replies to you in rot13. :)

Ah...

A bit of both.

No, especially if she too was deaf like her son Sid.

NW

Yeah, two months after my son was born, I read in the papers that she was arrested for gross negligence. She let a woman die on the delivery table... <shudders>

Oh, okay. lol

Just making sure. :)

Nothing, she must have learnt that she can't give gum to a baby. I don't like giving gum to kids. My son cries everytime he sees a gumball machine. He has no idea that you can eat them. He thinks they are tiny colourful balls that he can play with. One time, I absent mindedly popped it into my mouth; he was horrified.

I can't remember but was the child dressed like a girl? I don't think so.

The note was for a different thread but the word in question is mentioned here and it just reminded me, that's all. :)

Thanks but I got the joke in 815 the first time around. You seem to have gotten your wires crossed; Hit the unwind button. I asked you what Joey was doing in 201. :)

Priya

[email] (p r i y a) wrote:

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to

It depends on whether we're talking about serious proposals, or proposals *and* jokes. After all, Chandler proposed to Nina in 116 TOW Two Parts, Part 1, he proposed to the stripper in 422 TOW the Worst Best Man Ever, Ross proposed to Rachel in 515 TOW the Girl Who Hits Joey, and Rachel proposed to Monica in 721 TOW the Vows.

The original article can be found at http://www.eonline.com/Celebs/Who/em.html :)

On 30 Jun 2002 17:03:05 -0700, [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Ross proposed to Chandler in that episode too. Well, he showed him the ring and Chandler said, "Yes, a thousand times, yes." I only wish Rachel had reacted when Joey showed her the ring. :)

Thanks.

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

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Yeah, there's more to a proposal than just saying "marry me".

Lol!

Ah, but 422-Chandler wasn't sincere, whereas 824-Rachel was.

In fact, that was just after Ross proposed to Joey.

Now *that* proposal was treated as just a joke, but Ross proposing to Rachel was regarded by all of his friends as being offensive.

Also Phoebe joked that she meant to propose to Ross, which if it counted would at least have broken her duck. Or, *was* it fully a joke??? ;)

Ah yes. Well done Marita, but as you say, those were all jokes. Now, in my list were 7 rejected proposals, which I've placed in rough order of how sincere (not the same as how romantic) they were, IMHO...

Monica to Chandler (625) Ross to Rachel (803) Joey to Phoebe (802 Joey to Rachel (802) Chandler to Monica (515) Rachel to Joshua (420) Chandler to Monica (123)

..now, are those near the bottom comparable with the jokes you listed?

Thanks.

Tennant

On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 18:43:32 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

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You could say that he was after her money as well, and that has to be on Chandler's list over reasons to get married (even though he didn't mention it in 515).

Lol! I should have seen that one coming.

That's hard to say, even though I don't think neither Chandler nor Rachel were really serious in the last two. Chandler was more serious in 515 IMO. Come to think of it, I think Chandler was more serious in 422 when he "proposed" to the stripper, than when Rachel wanted Joshua to marry her in 420. BTW, what about Richard's speech in 624/625? Does that count as a proposal?

VSG.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

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Lol!

Well, this is it, ge didn't, and it was a comprehensive list.

Interestingly, he eventually married for a combination of reasons #2 & #3, while being named after reason #4.

Grin.

Yes, such was the ordering of my list.

Oh! So you that I should drop Rachel to Joshua from the list?

Well, I was only counting it when the proposer was one of the 6 friends.

Tennant

On Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:21:31 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

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Well, at least it is on Phoebe's list.

Yep. And it was a very good combination as well.

Yep.

Well, you shouldn't drop it, but it's more of a case of madness than a proposal IMO.

OIC.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

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Oh, when did Phoebe present her list?

Absolutely, and he thought that reason #1 applied as well, though to be fair to Chandler that wasn't his motivation.

Okay.

Fair enough. :)

Okay.

Tennant

On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:12:08 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

Technically, she has never told us her list, but in 702 she said that she was finally attracted to Chandler since he had money and a firm hand.

In fact, you could claim that he almost considered leaving her at the altar because of reason #1.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Of course - so being dominated is also on her list? ;)

You could, but only because he feared repeating the faults of his parents.

Tennant

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

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Ewww! I've now got the image of eating a bowl of cereal, only instead of Rice Crispies, there are all these tiny puppies floating in the milk...

Yep. It's hard to judge actually, as this whole aspect of the plot had to be artificially toned down, because of conservative American audiences.

You can be scared of the unknown, you can be scared of change, you can be scared of yourself, you can be scared of being scared...

Three. Don't forget Jasmine.

CHANDLER: How drunk are you?

MONICA: Drunk enough to know that I want to do this. Not so drunk that you should feel guilty about taking advantage. (716)

Hehe. Actually, AFAIC the key event in the breakup was not sleeping with Chloe or were they on a break (never forget that it was *Rachel* who first protested that) but this, from when the breakup began...

MONICA: Are you crazy?!

ROSS: Am I? Am I? Am I out of my mind? Am I losing my senses?? This dreamy guy is taking my girlfriend out for a meal.

  MONICA: What?! Ross y'know this isn't even about you! I mean this is
          about Rachel & something wonderful happening for her. I mean,
          you know, even if you're right, what if he wants to sleep
          with her, does it mean he gets too?

ROSS: No.

MONICA: I mean don't you trust her?

ROSS: (lying) Well, yeah!

MONICA: Then get over yourself! Grow up!

ROSS: (shyly) You grow up.

..but sadly Ross did not obey his sister. (311)

She hasn't been around lately...

If he's not careful, 13 will not be a lucky number for him either.

Alytch, no wonder the search engine couldn't find it. Here we are...

*�Rqqvr ZpPyvagbpx jvyy or onpx sbe ng yrnfg guerr rcvfbqrf arkg *�frnfba, fb jr fubhyq rkcrpg gb frr zber bs uvz.

..that was only June 11th, which seems like an age ago.

Thanks, sweetie.

Grin.

Moi aussi.

Heh, indeedy. :)

OMG. Tell me, do you feel lucky or unlucky about all that?

Grin.

Thanks. :)

Oh. I think I've tried gum only half-a-dozen times ever.

I can remember, but my judgement is not sharp on such matters. However, I would say that the clothes weren't particularly girlish, but then the baby wasn't wearing a hard hat and hobnail boots either.

Ah. :)

Eep! <hits the unwind button> Oh, sorry. I need my hand holding sometimes.

Joey advised Rachel to tell Ross how she feels, since he has loved her for ten years - then Joey revealed that although he'd been with his share of women, he had never felt about anyone the way Ross then felt about her.

But now of course, seven years later, he has.

Tennant (who is still wondering about the cheese)

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Ewww!

Hmmm

Well, the unknown is something too.

I can't remember exactly but Gunther does mention the number of rooms in his apartment when he offered Rachel to move in?

Right.

This line was for Phoebe advising Ross in this episode but you're talking about the break. Yeah, why not... ;)

But Ross was right about Mark. Althought he shouldn't have been so jealous and possesive, it's understandable. He had reasons to be insecure; his girlfriend who has never really respected him or his job is now spending all her time with a fashion jock. His ex dumped him for another woman. When Mark started to make his move and Rachel realised it, why didn't she meet Ross half way and try to patch up? All said and done, this relationship was doomed from the start because they didn't respect each other. A baby isn't going to miraculously change everything. They've got too much baggage. The easiest way to handle a R&R relationship would be pretend the break thing never happened. It wouldn't work for me.

What are you talking about? You are the one who had disappeared for a few days. :)

How come?

YW.

Let's see.... I'm not dead. So I guess, I feel lucky. :)

Lucky that she made it obvious how incompetant she was early on, so I could change my doctor? Yep. Why would I feel unlucky?

There's more to this story. I used to teach computer courses and this doctor was my student. At my first visit, I recognised her and she was giving me special treatment because she knew me. So, changing my doctor wasn't very easy. She was very upset that I just stopped coming to her.

Yeah, I rarely chew gum myself.

True.

Yep. :)

Well, this conversation started when you mentioned the similarity between this finale and the season 1 finale. Then, we wondered if Ross would... Let's unwind.

isn't

when

both

What made you say the above line? What would Joey have more luck with than Joey? and that too with Mozzarella? What's the connection between 201 & 815? Did you mean that Ross will mope around with a dog?

Moi Aussi :)

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

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I knowww!

Okay, sweetie. :)

No. She assumes that he is offering to give her the whole apartment, and asks him where he's going. He just says he doesn't know. (603)

Grin.

Well, like I said, the point is not that Ross was right about Mark, he was wrong about Rachel. That would be understandable if Monica had not just spelt the whole thing out for her big dumb brother.

Look at how shabbily Ross treated sweet kind trusting accommodating Mona.

Absolutely, that's the irony of his "just a waitress" on the anti-Rachel list, it was her starting to rise in the world that he couldn't handle.

P2GT2DP2C :)

Nothing special, it's just how Ross is going.

Good for you.

It's how different people see the world - you go to the bank, there's a robbery, everybody is shot except you, do you feel lucky or unlucky?

Psychology experiments show that people who felt lucky to have narrow escapes lead happier lives than those who felt unlucky to get involved.

Was your resolve strengthened by being with child?

Thanks.

Okay.

I meant that Ross might have more luck with Mozzarella than Joey did.

Instead of bumming the dog out, he'll be comforted by him.

Well, *you're* the one who mentioned cheese, and I assumed you meant the dog that was named after a cheese, and you said I'd crossed my wires...

Tennant

On Thu, 23 May 2002 23:48:53 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

And the most important part?

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Janice's guest appearance only got better and better as she started to have contractions and told Ross & Rachel what had happened to her over the last couple of years. Not only is this woman incredibly loud in her normal everyday life, but when she's in labour, it's pretty unbelievable. One can only imagine what the Asian woman would have said if she had heard Janice's really loud contractions.

"Let me think about that.. While I remove my pants!!" LOL!! The look on Chandler's face as he heard Janice through the wall was priceless. (Perhaps he suddenly understood what Joey had to go through several years ago?) The minute he looked at the wall in horror, I became 100% sure that Janice was not going to cause any problems between Monica and Chandler.

Wasn't it "unwitting"?

I agree that he did look awfully guilty for a second, but he was just so shocked that he didn't quite know how to react. Perhaps he thought she had used him as some kind of sperm donor and never told him about it..

Monica seemed ecstatic in this scene. Although Chandler's excitement over their baby-plans seemed to gradually fade away, Monica went in the other direction. She'll be on cloud nine the day she finds out she's pregnant.

The question is, of course, whether Janice gave birth to little Aaron before Emma was born. If she did, I guess Ross has to sue that poor nurse...

Also, I wonder how Rachel thought she was going to "smoke her baby out" .. :)

Aniston did an amazing job in this scene. It looked very realistic to me, and no matter how horrible Rachel has been in the past, I think there are very few people who didn't feel sorry for her when she was in pain in the delivery room.

What a typical guy-thing to say.. ;)

Rather predictable, but very sweet nonetheless. It was very appropriate that they kissed in this scene, and if nothing happens to this couple in the future, i.e. they don't end up together, they will at least have had this sweet kiss to "book-end the pregnancy."

I thought it was a bit odd that everybody held little Emma except Ross and Chandler. But then again, they're probably saving the big baby-moment for Chandler until little Daniel Bing is born.

A great Monica and Rachel scene! We've waited for this for ages, and yet, it was worth it. Poor Monica was so sweet when she gave away her future daughter's name, and you could see how she ached for the day when she gets to hold her own baby. Fortunately, there was no jealousy involved here; just a hint of sadness. And the fact that Monica was the one who got to name Rachel's little girl made the scene even better emotionally.

These dirty, funny little jokes pop up anywhere. It's kind of crazy to think that they can get away with these jokes while they have to keep up the morals by insisting on two characters getting married just because they have a child together. This double standard annoys me. Having said that, I laughed out loud at Phoebe's joke. :)

Actually, they showed the same clip with Joey that Rachel was watching in the end of 615 TO That Could Have Been. The shot of Joey is right before he leans down to Hope and kisses her. In fact, I think you could spot "Jessica Ashley," aka Alison Sweeney, on the TV-screen at one point.

Yep, I think it did. Besides, Phoebe was being honest, and I think Cliff understood where she was coming from. Perhaps he has also had his fair share of bad dating-stories? Cliff seemed like a really nice and normal guy, so I have a really strong feeling he'll be back next year.

What is it with Ross and Rachel thinking so many babies they see are ugly? Not only were they talking about this in 813 TOW Chandler Takes A Bath, but now they seem to think that Janice's son is the ugliest baby they've ever seen.

I don't think Janice did anything wrong here, or rather, she didn't think she was doing anything wrong. She thought she was only helping Rachel by telling her about her own situation, so I understand why she did it. Besides, Rachel said almost the exact same thing in 603 TOW Ross's Denial:

Rachel: Okay, but Ross, eventually you and I are gonna be dating. (...) Yeah! I�m gonna have a boyfriend, you�re gonna have a girlfriend..

Granted, she didn't know about Emma at that point, but she did realise that if they became roommates, there was a possibility that they would date other people and move on.

I applauded Ross in this scene. He did the right thing; he put Emma and her needs first. Even though the ideal situation may be that Ross and Rachel fall head over heels in love again and decide to get married and move to Scarsdale, one needs to be realistic here. It's neither the time nor the place to decide something that big in a hospitalroom with a newborn baby.

It was a great scene with Ross and Phoebe, but I couldn't help thinking that Ross was the mature one. Phoebe may be one of their best friends who has known them for ages, but she's still an outsider. The only people who can decide what to do with Ross and Rachel's future together are Ross and Rachel themselves, and the other people won't help by trying to negotiate between them. Having said that, I do think that Phoebe did what she thought was best for the both of them.

And this is the scene where Joey deserves all the kudos he can get. He was there for her and he supported her and reassured her that she would never be alone. I don't see how he put Ross in a bad light in this scene like so many people have claimed. I merely saw him trying to help Rachel while she was desperate. Besides, Ross told Joey in 805 that he wasn't in love with Rachel and didn't want to force himself into loving her again. In 816 he told Joey to tell Rachel about his feelings. Also, Joey doesn't know about what happened after the party in Massapequa after 818, Rachel's crazy jealousy in 821 or their kiss in 822. Therefore, it makes sense that Joey thinks that Ross might end up married to another woman in the future.

The look on Joey's face when he hugged her said a lot IMO. And I just knew that ring was a crucial part of the episode.

Regardless of what she said, she still agreed to marry him (albeit in a half-hearted sort of way), which means that she didn't find Joey's "proposal" as ridiculous this time around as in 802 TOW the Red Sweater. Having said that, I don't believe that this will turn into the beginning of a JnR relationship, because if there's anything I understood by watching this episode, it's that the writers are ultimately planning on getting Ross and Rachel together in the end.

I think we will.

I half expected their story to end with Monica suddenly finding out that she was already pregnant. That would have meant that Chandler would have to react to some unexpected news.

Yep. I expected that people would have something to argue about after the finale, and that certainly happened.

Yes, Aniston's performance was amazing, especially in the second part of the finale, which is why she deserves an Emmy just for her very realistic birth-scene alone.

I guess it'll remain a mystery until she tells us herself in an interview of some sort.

I think it's more likely that they didn't want anybody in the audience to know about the ring. Just the fact that Ross had a ring in his pocket, even though he wasn't planning on proposing, would have made people go nuts when they heard the spoiler.

Janice doesn't beat Ross, though.

Her nasal allergic reaction in 707 TOW Ross's Library Book was annoying, but Janice in labour was hilarious. I've never heard anyone having louder contractions.

Because she's going to be together with Sid for the rest of her life, while Chandler was on and off for years, Ross was merely a fling, and Gary had enough of her after little over a year the first time around.

It's another one of those things that we know, but the writers seem to want to forget. The viewers in general have no idea Ross and Janice were an item, so they use the easy way to get a joke by talking about Chandler.

Not really. That doesn't sound like anything post season-3 Chandler would do. I clearly remember how much he hated Janice in season 4 and season 7, so it would have been very unlike Chandler if he had cheated on Monica -- with Janice -- the night before his wedding.

Her doctor didn't seem to be around a lot. On the contrary, she seemed to be very busy.

Perhaps Chandler counted the hours from the moment Rachel and Ross left the apartment and until Rachel and Emma had rested after the birth.

Yep. It's a rather unusual name, so..

Yeah, Daniel Day Lewis. :)

Could be.

Maybe it was a bit rude, but I don't think Monica was hurt by it. And in that case, their daughter might end up being called Ruth Bing.

Yes, many people discussed that suggestion, and I think it would be really sweet.

I just hope little Emma will be just as strong as her aunt if the other kids at her school decide to tease her about her initials.

ITA. I loved seeing the two of them together.

Because she's more likely to serve her dinner and breakfast this time around since Emma will be living so close?

Hehe, I think so, yes. Besides, Chandler and Monica seem to have a thing with small rooms. (501, 504, 824)

That would fit perfectly, but once again, I think it depends on CCA's real-life situation. I doubt they'll make her pregnant if she keeps struggling with the issue in private.

Hehe, it was a good dirty joke.

I thought she said Litman? And as for Janice's last name, I think we can safely say that it was her last name at some point.

Grin. This is almost as bad as Rachel dating Paul and Ross dating Elizabeth.

Once again, one of those things that only the obsessed fans like us would remember.

I think Janice was right in saying that Ross might ultimately get married to another woman and start a family with her, but that doesn't mean that he will be a bad father for Emma. But Janice did have a point.

I thought so, yes. Besides, Janice screaming in labour was enough to make me laugh out loud, and the only way this could have been improved would have been if Joey had found out that Janice was there.

He was in love with a dream at first. It developed into true love when they got together, but he needed to see all sides of Rachel before he could truly love her.

I think he didn't want to start arguing with Rachel by pointing out that Ross would be there no matter what. Rachel was obviously certain that she would end up alone, and instead of starting a big discussion about this, Joey decided to be there for her as a friend, as well as reassuring her that he would always be there for her. I don't see anything wrong with his behaviour in this scene.

Rachel had come to that conclusion this time around, but it was still a different situation.

My jaws were on the floor. I had hoped Joey would enter the RnR-mix once again, but I never expected that it would happen like this.

Joey has the biggest heart of all the friends, and he will tell Rachel what has happened right away. Unless Joey turns into "Evil Joe" over the summer (which I find highly unlikely), he's going to set Rachel straight immediately. After all, the real cliffhanger here isn't whether Joey will go along with Rachel's "okay" or not. The real question in this situation is what is going to happen when the other friends (Ross in particular) find out that Rachel accepted Joey's "proposal."

I doubt it. Joey thinks Ross is planning on proposing now, and he doesn't want to ruin a family, and most importantly, he would never do anything to hurt little Emma.

Yeah, so perhaps he will fall over some chairs as well?

The thing is that I don't believe for one second that Ross was heading off to Rachel's room to propose. I think he bought flowers to show affection and congratulate her on the birth of their daughter. He probably also wanted to sit down and talk about their situation and their relationship. Even though Ross is famous for getting married on a whim, I think he has learned his lesson, and also, there is another person in this drama now. Ross expressed his concern about Emma to Phoebe, so there's no way that he was planning on messing with their situation by proposing right away.

The former.

I doubt it.

A very good choice for the last couple of minutes of the finale.

This finale wasn't the best finale we've ever seen, and even last year's cliffhanger was more shocking and better written than this one, but it was still a very good episode. We got all the main ingredients in a good finale; comedy, drama and emotions running out of control. Too bad I have a feeling that poor Joey is going to be the loser in this situation come September.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

I guess so, for by "only" I meant "partial", not "merely".

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Ja, it was great to see Miss Wheeler really running with her r�le.

Lol yes, between them the two women made Rachel look normal.

Hehe, yes - it's good to see a guy with his priorities straight. :)

Lol yes, and the way women were coming & going in there, you could also say it was a parade ground!

Ah, you see, that's what comes from knowing in advance that Janice would appear, even though you didn't know what she would do. I was still recovering from the surprise of seeing Janice in the first place, so I just didn't know what to think.

Not according to the transcript by Jean Liew. Hang on sweetie, I'll check <clicketty-click> yes, you're right, it's "unwitting". *TT*

Lol, that makes it more likely that Joey was the real father!

UC, that's guys for you. Chandler wasn't entirely focused on the baby-making aspect of the project... ;)

Chandler will have his own numbered cloud too, I think.

Well, Rachel set off to the delivery room only moments after Janice, so it's down to the time for the actual birth process. ISTM that it's gotta be Janice who won, since it wasn't her first baby, and Rachel was a long time about it. Also, she was still in bed while Janice was up & about.

Having said that, although Rachel did say "she has her baby before me", the exact terms were not put in writing, so she could argue that what she was talking about was a woman leaving the labour room before her.

She's been taking too much notice of Dubya. Maybe she thought she had OBL up there, which is why the baby wouldn't come out...

Yes, when you consider that everybody knows what a heavily pregnant woman looks & moves like, and very few have seen a woman giving birth, strangely it was here that Aniston gave the more realistic portrayal.

I know, and we accuse Rachel of being self-absorbed!

That's right. While still not sexy, it was a much better kiss than the little plonker she gave him at the end of 822.

Absolutely. It ought to be comforting to *all* fans that, given the somewhat unrealistic situation that is the 'sit' of this sitcom, the baby's parents will always be together even if they're not an item.

That might not sound like much, but it's ten times better than for the Ross of 7 years ago, and a million times better than for poor Phoebe.

Oh, I didn't notice that Ross didn't hold Emma, but I did notice that Chandler was missed out, and wondered why. Can you think of a better explanation than saving him for Daniel Bing? I can, (see below).

And also there was a small continuity error when Phoebe leaned over the bed to receive Emma. From one angle, Chandler has his right hand on her back, from the other angle, it's down by his side.

Anyway, way back in Season 1 when Ben was born, only Carol, Ross, and Monica held him; while in Season 5 when the triplets were born, Phoebe held Frank, Monica held Chandler, and Ross held Lesley, then all three lay on Phoebe's lap. That makes the scores as follows...

    4  Phoebe (triplets/Emma)
    3  Monica (Ben/Chandler/Emma)
    2  Ross (Ben/Lesley)
    1  Joey (Emma)
    1  Rachel (Emma)
    0  Chandler

..and though Phoebe comes out on top, Monica is the only one to get a hold on all three occasions. "The Dropper" never gets a hold.

Absolutely. I could not agree more with all seven points that you made.

The creators must make Monica's baby a boy, so that he can be named Daniel, else his mother's sacrifice for her friend would be too much.

Mind you, a list of all the Bings in the IMDb - An, Brenda, Hans, Herman, Jon, Julius, J�rgen, Leon, Mack, Paula, Steve, Tracey, Wu, Yang, and Yin - shows a few other possibilities; and also proves that Joey was right to think the name Bing could be Chinese (606).

BTW, Steve Bing is the putative father of Elizabeth Hurley's baby, whereas the reserve candidate is of course Matthew Perry.

I think the answer to that is given by the huge threads on Angel's Friends about the jokes that the younger fans don't get; presumably such humour is also lost on the church elders.

And if we assume that less sophisticated viewers will think of the woman who is giving birth as the mother, then so far five babies have been born on the show, and not a single one was in wedlock.

Say no more. :)

Is it really? Gosh, EE Marita!!!

This means we can compute the impact that Joey's sacking had on DOOL; if that hadn't happened, storylines would be over two years further along.

Not that I could see. There's just two shots of Drake, once when Cliff first notices Joey is the doctor that was in the room before, and again when Joey taps the screen while protesting he wasn't a fake doctor.

And it wouldn't be Alison Sweeney if it was a clip from "Friends", for she played the DOOL actress Jessica Ashley in 718 "TOW Joey's Award", wherein our hero 'behalfed' her Soapie. If for some strange reason it was a DOOL clip, she would be playing Samantha 'Sami' Brady #7.

Anyway, you're right about the first clip (20:00 on the 615 DVD), but where exactly does the second clip (with the blue lights) come from?

I suppose he would have to be, else the story had a really lame ending.

That's right. What makes it really weird is that if Emma is supposed to look like her mother, then she should have Rachel's big nose.

That's right. I was quite surprised to see some commentators heaping great opprobrium on Janice for what she said.

That's right, and Ross has said the same sort of thing. In 805 "TOW Rachel's Date" he poured his heart out to Joey, explaining his dream of having a wife & child of his own. When asked if the wife is Rachel, Ross replied that she used to be, but not any longer.

Also, in 701 "TOW Monica's Thunder", Rachel asked Ross if they'd ever get married, scaring Ross with the idea. Explaining how she meant him with someone & herself with someone, she told him to shake it off.

That's right, although don't be so quick that the ideal situation could be for Ross and Rachel fall head over heels in love again. Given their history, that could well prove disastrous, especially for little Emma.

Absolutely, and the romantic notion of being continuously in love with someone, ever since you were children, despite you having been in love with at least two other people whom you were married to, (not to mention a long list of lovers), is something that might appeal to Phoebe, but not to Ross who has been through it, and knows better.

Absolutely. The problem is that some RnR fans are spitting blood at this.

Exactly.

Indeedy, and he had only just heard Ross getting annoyed with Phoebe for suggesting that he & Rachel should be together; which resulted in Joey's speech to the others that Rachel was the perfect woman whom he'd take in his arms if only she wanted to be with him.

Absolutely. After Rachel turned him down, Joey at least knew where stood, but as she was in his arms, his fear of the future returned.

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Yes, but something you guys keep glossing over.

It also has to include Ross. There is absolutely no way whatsoever that this can end well for him if Joey gets to marry Rachel and be stepfather to Emma. Every single reply I've ever seen to this issue does one of three things:

1. It waves Ross off with a vague statement about how the writers can make him happy if they want to. There is no thoughtful discussion of how this is actually going to be feasible. Because it isn't, unless Carol suddenly decides she's actually straight, wants her husband back, and Susan's been doing voodoo on her for years.

2. It states, baldly, that Ross is kind of a jerk and it doesn't really matter whether or not he's happy as long as Joey gets what he wants. There are those who don't understand how R&R fans can bear to watch Joey be nothing but an obstacle on the way to happiness for R&R. I have news for you; one of those men is in this position either way, and the stakes are MUCH lower for Joey, who has no children and has never been married, than it is for Ross. If Joey loses, he has to look for love again with his new, improved, more mature heart. If Ross loses, his life is permanently ruined. He is estranged from his children, betrayed by his friends and his life-long love for Rachel ends in great bitterness as he goes out with a dating resume so damaged no woman will touch him. The last debacle with Mona was just shown again tonight, and I was reminded of this.

3. It pairs Ross up with Phoebe. Thanks, Tennant. Yeah, that would probably help. If I thought there was any chance at all this might actually happen this might not even be such a bad idea, but Phoebe is barely visible these days.

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

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True. The writers could do anything they liked, but whether the fans (or the creators for that matter) would be happy with it is something else.

I really like Ross, and would hate to see him treated so badly. To me, he's like the big brother I never had, though I'm more like Chandler.

But I don't see why things have to end so bleakly for Ross as you make out, although I do agree it's possible. However, in most circumstances, it is clear that Ross will be far closer to Emma than he ever has with Ben, even if Joey & Rachel should marry, since the six friends all live in each other's pockets so. Anyway, Ross is too good for Rachel.

You're welcome, Claire. :)

Such a development could be quite a good story for them both.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

I know, but the most important part of the finale happened here, didn't it? :)

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It looked like she was having a blast. I'm just glad that even though her "main" boyfriend on the show is happily married, that doesn't mean that she cannot show up once in a while. And most importantly, it didn't feel contrived at all.

Absolutely.

Yeah, he was pretty sure about what was his top priority at that moment. Besides, Rachel was bound to be there for a while, so he probably thought there was plenty of time.

Hehe. The wheel of mayhem and pain! But where was the golden monkey?

I stumbled across the fact that she would appear in the finale, but I didn't have any idea what she was going to do. At first I thought she was going to create some tension and problems between Monica and Chandler, but remembering how Chandler reacted to her in 707 TOW Ross's Library Book, that seemed very unlikely. Then I thought Chandler was going to run into her at the hospital, and she would somehow make him want to have children with Monica, and Monica would get the wrong idea when she saw the two of them together... Frankly, I'm glad it happened this way with Janice hanging out with Ross and Rachel. It was so much more interesting.

VSG.

That would make an excellent story-opportunity.

He just wanted to get back in the closet, didn't he? ;)

I'd hope so.

Yeah, I agree.

Oh, you mean the one that Rachel said "Beat you, sucker!" to?

And her labour pains were the axis of evil, right?

Yeah. Actually, I read an article with a small interview with Marta Kauffman, and she said that Aniston had started crying for real when they handed her the real baby after the "birth." Apparently, the maternal instincts hit her with full force.

I think Rachel was excused from everything in this episode.

Yes, it was very emotional, and it seemed right at that moment. Many RnR-fans wanted to cut off the finale after this kiss...

Definitely. Ross will be around for Emma even if he gets married to another woman. He won't be phased out or anything; the group will only have more members.

Oh?

There's another continuity error when Monica and Chandler start kissing in the first empty room. Monica's arm is moving *very* fast indeed, but it's also moving "through" Chandler's arm. Having said that, the same happened in the S7 finale right after they got married, so this error is hardly new.

LOL! Good explanation! I think it's very understandable that he didn't get to hold any of the babies given his track record with objects. However, I'm sure he'll get his baby-moment when Monica gives birth. It would be criminal to deprive him of that. And Ross should have had the opportunity to hold his daughter as well, but he probably held her off-screen when he took her to the nursery.

Thanks.

ITA. It's only fair that little Daniel is next. Monica will get to name her own son, and Chandler will get to show that he's a better father for his own son than Charles was. Besides, we've seen the birth of three girls and two boys so far on the show, and a little boy will complete the group of Friends - the next generation...

J�rgen is a very typical Norwegian and Danish name.

Yep, that little boy will be a "Bing" no matter what happens with the DNA-test..

Then again, some of the fans over at Angel's are very young indeed. You're bound to miss some of the dirty jokes if you're only 13. And you're right; we're lucky the really conservative people in the USA don't get these jokes, or perhaps they underestimate the viewers and think they won't understand the jokes.

*Gasp* What signals is this series sending out? Meanwhile, I just read in a Norwegian newspaper that most children in this country are in fact born out of wedlock. Maybe I should alert the church elders... ;)

Grin.

Yeah, looks like it.

There is a blonde on Clint's TV-screen, and if she isn't "Jessica," she's her look-a-like. Look at the blonde on the TV-screen when Phoebe is "spooning" Cliff.

I know, that's why I put it in quotation marks.

805 TOW Rachel's Date. It's the scene where Drake is told about Jessica's missing body.

Yes, I don't think he'll just disappear like Jake did. Besides, it seems very likely that he'll show up in the season premiere since we have a cliffhanger.

And she could have been really hairy if she looked like her dad.. (512)

Me too. She was only talking about her own experiences, and I don't blame her at all. She trusted Gary when they were married, and he turned out to be a big jerk. How can she possibly know that Ross will be any different? We can of course assume that Ross will always be there for Emma, but Janice doesn't know that.

Yes, an excellent example. Ross had no intentions of getting back together with Rachel at that point.

Yes, that's another example. However, I would say that 603 and 805 were more serious and sincere.

Yeah, but it would be a perfect situation if they got together for good this time. But you're right, with their history I don't think they'll ever be "in that place" again.

Yes, it all comes down to Ross trying to do the right thing. In this situation he put Emma's happiness before his own, something that is crucial when you have a baby. He had his priorities straight, and as for Rachel, he only seemed to appreciate the fact that they are good friends at the moment. Why mess with a good situation? Now that Rachel has given birth and will go home, there will be no more awkward sex-moments where she treats him like a slave, and they will get used to their new life. Someday they might find out that they have fallen in love again and should get married, or it could be that they get married when they're 40 to fulfill their pact, but the best thing these two people can do right now is to take one day at a time. Time will tell if they are in fact meant for each other.

Tell me about it. I was so incredibly provoked by one particular fan who was literally threatening to kill Joey because he was "trying to break up a family and the world's best couple." When I tried to point out that Joey was merely comforting a friend and picking up a ring from the floor, he went ballistic.

Good. Finally someone who agrees with me! :)

I feel really bad for this guy. Not only has he sacrificed his own happiness in order for his friends to live together, but none of his friends seem to be willing to support him. There was nothing supportive about the look that Chandler gave him after his speech.

Yeah, that tiny bit of hope showed up again when Rachel asked what she would do without him.

Yep, when I first heard the spoiler that Ross had a ring in his pocket, I knew that it would be a crucial part of the finale.

Yes, Joey will explain what has happened to both Ross and Rachel. I just hope his friends don't blame him for this!

Maybe, but I doubt it. Joey's feelings will ultimately be thrown aside, making way for the big RnR-reunion next season.

I bet he has some skeletons in the closet that will fall out in a couple of episodes.

True, but real-life circumstances have prevented that from happening. If Courteney hadn't suffered from a miscarriage last year, I'm pretty sure their first kid would have been born in February 2002 during sweeps.

I expected Ross and Rachel to have some sort of big cliffhanger this time around as well. I wasn't as confident as you were when it came to whether Joey would be a part of it or not.

And that facial expression she had when she looked at Ross complaining about how much his head hurt, was just priceless.

Kudrow was far more vocal, though.

Did the spoiler mention that part?

Yes, both when it comes to marriage and sleeping with other women than his girlfriend..

IC. BTW, why do you assume that Sid was a dermatologist? Janice only said that they met at the dermatologist's office, and I took that to mean that they had both been patients there.

Yeah, she was very funny. Contracting and everything.

Yeah, she'll be riding the alimony pony once again. :)

Exactly. And another thing; Janice says to Ross and Rachel that she didn't even know that the two of them got married, and Ross says that they didn't. Um.. Where has he been? What about Vegas? Has this really turned into a soap opera where some of the characters get amnesia on a regular basis?

Haha. :)

You know, in the middle of season 8 I thought the cliffhanger would be that Rachel had just given birth to her daughter, and Ross was in the room together with her. As Rachel finally fell asleep, a nurse entered, looking for Ross. Nurse: Mr Geller, your girlfriend wonders if you'd like to see your baby. Ross: Um, no, I've already seen it. My daughter is in the nursery. Nurse: Eh, no, she's down the hall waiting for you. Your girlfriend is having a sonogram today. (Close-up on Ross's startled expression. Fade to black.)

Then again, this might have been cruel to Ross. But it could have been very interesting for us to try to find out if it was Mona or not. Then in 901 we find out that it isn't Ross's baby, but Jack has cheated on Judy..

Good point.

Or perhaps he counted from the moment he saw her for the last time before they went to the hospital? Also, Rachel had changed clothes and washed her hair when the friends entered her room.

Yeah.

Pardon?

Still, there was no anger involved.

Yep. Very original, and the baby would BRB.. ;)

Yes, I saw that too, but I still think it's a cute name. :)

Hehe. What about Phoebe's "Green Eggs and Ham" discussion group? ;) (218 TOW Dr. Ramoray Dies)

I'm sure Monica will be more than happy to make cookies or broccoli for her little niece.

Lol. No fear of small rooms in that department.

Not necessarily. She has told several magazines that she wants to have kids, so that's hardly a surprise. And even though Monica and Chandler have decided it's time to start trying for a baby, that doesn't necessarily mean that we'll get to see it happening.

It's good to see that they still have them.

No, I don't, so I'll have to check that on an American TV to make sure.

Yeah, I agree with that suggestion.

Yeah, I remember that one.

Exactly, she was in such a fragile state that she was willing to believe what Janice said.

And she did have a fairly normal voice in her last scene with Rachel.

No, he had no idea she was there.

Good question.

What line are you thinking about in particular?

Oh, absolutely. Joey would have been burned alive by some of the fans there if they had got hold of him. :)

I think the reality hit her when Janice told Rachel about her experiences. So even though Ross and Rachel are living together right now as friends, there will be a day when they find spouses and move on.

I guess one can never truly realise the impact of a baby until one is actually holding one.

I sure did.

If we only look at her "okay," I'd say that she was just terrified at the prospect of ending up alone. (An interesting parallel to Monica pre-Chandler.) However, due to the fact that she told Joey, "What would I do without you," there might be more to it than that.

I also showed it to some Friends-deprived friends of mine, and they had pretty much the same reaction. My sister just grinned like crazy, obviously very happy that Joey was once again "in the running," and she is now insisting on the fact that Joey and Rachel would make the best couple ever. One of my friends yelled in frustration when she saw the end credits, and then she started asking me when the spoilers for 901 would show up..

Yeah, I've heard about that reaction...

Good point. Judy would be shocked and angry, but I don't think Jack would understand what was going on. He'd be more interested in other things. In fact, this is a very valid point, since it didn't seem like Judy's line about coming back was just a throw-away line.

Absolutely. Those consequences could be very important for season 9.

Then I think Joey should tell Ross that he has to explain the situation to Rachel and find out where they are before Joey can do anything.