Does anyone know the title of this episode?
SPOILE
Mar 15, 200094 posts by 23 posters
94 posts
Border24057893 wrote:
s p o i l e r
s p a c e
! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Yes. Get over it.
Hello! Marriage = the end of all tension????????? I can see a whole gaggle of divorce lawyers cryin' in their beer over this revelation.
Geesh, this almost seems to easy, like shooting ducks in a barrel, but if there'e the slightest chance of educating someone...
There was *plenty* of tension between Jamie and Paul on Mad About You. And I'm talking about the first 3 seasons, long before they ran into "real" trouble.
At the very best, the only reason your prediction would come true is because the writers of Friends are too stupid to do any better. But I don't get the impression you are claiming that. All I get from this statement of yours is an unbelievably withering and cynical view of marriage that bears little resemblance to past sitcom experience, much less reality.
C&M have lacked adversity??? Have you been watching lately? Just how do *you* define adversity?
I'll give you this one.
the writers would have to be TRULY stupid/high on drugs/ or just really really bad writers if they actually make the wedding the climax. I see it as more of a sweeps for next season, if and when there is one. There's WAY too many possible storylines involving Monica organising the wedding... loads of potential for laughs.
Shaz "Turkey's burnt, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined." http://zap.to/ERweb (ER Multimedia) http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/ERcreative/FAQ http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/GellerBing http://members.xoom.com/FriendsQuote
Vishal, I wish *you* wouldn't phrase it THAT way<g> putting it in hours makes it seem like nothing, yet it takes the US viewers from september to may to view it. I'd rather speak in episodes. It seems longer then :)
Shaz
To get the latest spoile go to my website at: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/BoxSeatBlvd/celtadg/celtadg.html then sign my guestbook with the phrase "C'mon the Bhoys", leave your e- mail address and I will send you the spoile.
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, [email] doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
Or, how about just read it here, under the subject 'SPOILER for 622'?
CandiGrrl wrote:
"It's Hard To Take A Stand" - Sheryl Crow
:) I love that song.
====== "Life is never without love" -Sheryl Crow
Moron Cow wrote:
HEY!!! Take that back, please ;-)
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Claire Abraham doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
The Sudden Unexpected Kiss of Passion isn't going to happen, by the looks of things, or at least it's not going to lead to Rachel staying with Paul over Ross - she dumps him in 622. Or maybe that's even more reason for it to happen. In any case, Ross's job situation just got a hell of a lot more precarious. Prepare for more piling on, Claire. Sigh.
Well, I did say it was just a daydream. I'm pretty resigned to the idea that the Ross and Rachel story is going to end unfinished while Chandler and Monica's story ends with an engagement. Because I am becoming more and more certain that this year is the last. The studio and the station can't be happy that they won't have a final answer until May, so it probably just that they won't admit defeat at the hands of Kudrow and Schwimmer until the last possible minute. Possibly in the hopes that they can convince the other four to stay. There are mind games going on I suspect we don't know about, but this cast will probably not return intact.
Fine. I've had it. I don't care even the slightest little bit about Chandler and Monica since she's become such a shrew, and Joey has been hopelessly underused. Bye bye Friends. It was fun for awhile, but it's getting pretty bad. They are completely out of ideas, they are going into their third consecutive marriage cliffhanger, and the most talented members of the cast don't even enjoy doing it anymore. If season seven does happen, I fear it will be a depressing affair at best.
I'm gonna go record every single first and second season episode, plus selections from season three and TOW Everybody Finds Out. Some of it was worth the fanaticism and the hours on the Internet.
If I get a copy of TOW the Cat, I will burn it. :-) That remains the worst episode of all time.
claire
don't give up soo much on FRIENDS, near the end of it's sixth season and with a lot of hope for the future.. it is more popular than ever I think as a fanatic you may have "burnout" when the obsession starts to go
I don;t think I will ever burn as such.. and the recent spoilers have only put smiles on my face, but simply cos I'm a devoted fan of C+M
*pray* for season 7 *pray* for season 7, la la la la, la la la la
always smiles C.B. 4 M.G. 4EVER !!
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, HeLeNa *!* doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
Helena, when someone gets burnout, there's not a thing anyone else can do or say to stop it. My enthusiasm has been waning for a while, but I'm sorry to say that it's finally just about gone - my site is now a chore rather than a fun thing to do, I have a hell of a lot more interest in something else altogether now, I'm not even taping the show anymore and am contemplating selling my set of videos to someone overseas because I never even watch those anymore. I really would just prefer the show ends at the end of this season, so that I'm no longer obligated to watch it out of what is now nothing else but habit. And I *know* Claire's enthusiasm has been waning for even longer than mine has. When we no longer have any enthusiasm for something, how can we be expected to stick with it any longer?
I understand your burnout
what a shame.. but is it cos they haven;t put Ross and Rachel back together ?? and that they haven't broken up C+M like you wished (my prayers were heard or rather my desperate plees for them to remain together!)
well.. take care so long
Who said we wanted C&M to break up? I said I wanted Chandler to have more scenes with Joey.
Helena, this martyr complex is really lost on me, at least in this newsgroup. I can't speak for other forums, but then again, you posted it here.
Were you around during the 2nd season when people like me had to spend every - and I mean *every* - week dealing with at least a half a dozen relentless posters who kept arguing that Ross and Rachel being together was going to be the ruination of the show?
Whatever it is you have had to put up with as a fan of C&M in this newsgroup has been chicken feed by comparison, I assure you. I don't even know anyone in this newsgroup who has *ever* wished C&M would break up. It certainly hasn't been me.
Please chill out about this. The writers are the *only* ones who control this situation, and it looks like they are in your corner. If they aren't, they'll break them up, and they will be the only ones who really want to, at least as far this newsgroup is concerned. C&M are not my favorite couple on the show, but I bear them no malice whatsoever.
together
heard
-
survive
hey sorry about that.. I have never been told I have a martyr complex.. mm.. interesting.. R+R fans have gone through hell of course...... it needs to be dealt with and sorted out
so lets just say R+R get back together.. has anyone got any good ways of how they would do this ?? I am not at all anti-this.. just don;t want C+M to breakup
Tina may know a good way of a reunification, shame the got drunk and woke up next morning thingmajig went.. and now the drunk weddings gone.. what else can they do ?? any ideas... ??
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, HeLeNa *!* doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
Quite honestly Helena, I can't be bothered to think of anything right now. At the moment, I'm typing up a rather hard letter to write anyway.
Well, I've got a bang-up fanfic for the end of the show brewing in my head, and it does involve Chandler realizing he just got Judy for a mother in law... and Monica meeting her father - in - law...
And no, it does not end up with Ross and Rachel as a couple. You saw what I would have happen to them at this point. Forget Deus Ex Machina, this is Julie Ex Machina, and shamelessly so. The last couple of good chances to reunite Ross and Rachel have been written away. I don't think it can happen this season.
Oh, and Joey goes to California to work on his new TV series, with his personal masseuse, Phoebe. Who is still not Joey's lover, though she thinks his director is cute and wants to get to know him better...
Unfortunately, I may not actually have time to write it. A good fanfic takes hours and hours I don't have before the finale spoilers come out.
HeLeNa *!* wrote:
didn't say you were.
Frankly at this point I can't think of anything either. It's okay though, we'll live. My post really wasn't a plea for sympathy, just perspective. But I appreciate the sentiment anyway.
no seriously.. an amazing amount of people on here want R+R to get back together what would be the best way of doing this ?? anyone got any ideas ??
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, HeLeNa *!* doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
I actually *can't* think of anything now, now that I can be bothered to. I think the problem is just that they are not nearly the same characters anymore, and as such it's harder to write for them.
this is so true Tina.. the modern Ross and Rachel are different characters.. now presumably as an R+R (although I am trying not to generalise) yopu want them to be back together.. as it was a major hook for the show for many years
but what can they do if they are so different now ?? any ideas.. I mean the out of the blue thing has really gone.. and the marriage.. we need some ideas ?? come on you folks.. if you want them to be together again.. share your thoughts I think it might be that they could come to the conclusion that they never found love like they had before, and at the end, perhaps they tell each other they'll make a go of it. what do you think ??
"HeLeNa *!*" wrote:
The problem is that for the past three years there have been promising storylines for a reunion. You have the beach, Ross's wedding, Ross's divorce, The Vegas wedding, Rachel's sister and now dating a father and daughter. I for one am burnt out of coming up with logical ideas because they never go anywhere. The majority have been wasted storylines.
That's what I think will probably happen. I still don't think it can happen this season because with only two episodes left they have to break up Ross and Elizabeth, resolve the issue of Ross risking his job and then his relationship with Rachel. It would be a major rush for them take these three major plots which would normally take up anywhere from 3-5 episodes and try to do them in two. They really need another season to put some closure on the whole show. C&M are the only ones who seem headed for that IF this is the last season and I've already said that I think their outcome this season will be decided by whether or not this is the last season. With everyone else, I can't see any true, realistic closure that will satisfy the fans.
Jay
jay
when you said C+M's outcome did you mean engagement or break up ??
(I hope it's the first one)
*smiles* Helena
"HeLeNa *!*" wrote:
I mean that they'll film a couple of different endings for them this season. If it turns out to be the last, they'll probably get engaged or married. If it continues, I think an engagement is still a possibility, but there is also a chance that something will go wrong and we'll be left with a cliffhanger and have to find out next season how things will work out. If they have a cliffhanger, I would expect them to break up at the beginning of next season. Not that I'm saying they should, but being a R&R fan, you learn to expect it.
Moron Cow wrote:
I'm glad you pointed out how lucky us R&R fans are. Sometimes when you invest a lot into a relationship and then three years are spent yanking your chains and getting your hopes up only to have them dashed, you forget how lucky you really are that you're not a fan of a couple that has had things unbelievably easy in comparison.
Jay --who's now not upset about the way R&R have been handled over the past three years, but rather thankful for all the false hopes.
Ariel wrote:
Do you guys see what's happening????
The writers are setting C&M fans up. You're all excited about them getting married, but there hasn't been a proposal and everyone but Monica now knows that Chandler plans to propose. If they were going to have this big happy ending, romantic proposal thing, why would they have Pheobe be the one who lets the audience know that Chandler plans to propose. I think we're going to see a few different versions of the finale filmed. If they decide to come back(which will have to be decided by mid May), C&M will break up because of some screw up by Chandler. If the show's gonna end, she'll say yes when he proposes. And R&R will be handled in a similar way, but with much less gratification to the people who have been put through hell for the past 3 years.
Jay
I'm afraid this is a pretty good judgement on the way this writing staff works. I do have to say, that while the end of the Chandler/Monica story will be clean if it ends in 2000, I don't see how they have enough time to wrap up Ross and Rachel. It's looking like it will all end with Ross losing his girlfriend and his job and nothing more.
Does everybody realize that the last time Ross got to have a happy moment in his plotline was back in 199*6*????? Does this seem excessive to anybody but me?
OTOH, if your 'writers against ross' (to be known as the WAR theory) theory pans out, then it won't be the end of C&M
mmmmm......no not really since he and rachel pretty much dominated before that
OK, stay with me, here, William. I am agreeing with the previous poster about what will happen if this is the last season. Chandler and Monica get engaged, Ross loses his job and his girlfriend, and that is the end of the series.
It WILL still be the end of C&M, because it will be the end of the show. No season seven. Got it?
My first response to this comment is not printable.
It is generally agreed that there was a good balance of stories in season one, which was wildly successful by any sensible standard.
Even if this mythical Ross and Rachel dominance in season two was as overwhelming as you are making it out to be, I think by now Chandler and Monica have probably exceeded it. Season two, which was delightful with a few things that upset isolated individuals, is matched by season five, which was delightful with a few things that upset isolated individuals. They've droned and screeched on less successfully for all of season six, which moves them past Ross and Rachel's less dominant season three. By your own logic, William, we should now be due three years of Chandler in deep depression and Monica dully standing aside as scenery. Thanks, I'll pass.
I might, however, settle for something like this:
Chandler asks Monica to marry him? Again? OK. Fine. (Does anybody think this would be more effective if he hadn't already done it twice? The writers blew their trump card - and this is indeed a trump - too early.) Happily ever after, show ends. I can live with that. I like Chandler. I like Monica when she has her mouth taped shut, or she's too happy to nag.
Ross loses his job and his girlfriend as the show ends? OK - if they grant me this personal showdown.
Rachel looks at the unemployed Dr. Geller, who seems to be in awfully high spirits.
Rachel: Well, Ross, what are you going to do now?
Ross: Oh, that's OK. Everything is going to be just fine.
Rachel: What do you mean?
Ross: I know what I really want. I know what I really need. It wasn't Elizabeth, or a job nervously boring college students to death. I've been such a fool.
Rachel: Ross, you can't be talking about...no, I don't think the time is right for us to get back together... maybe when you aren't under stress...
Ross: Rachel, I've got stunning news for you. Not everything revolves around you all the time. And I wouldn't go back to you if you paid me.
Rachel: WHAT????
At this minute, through the door pops...after all these years...Julie.
Julie: Hey, Ross, are you ready to go?
Rachel: Go? Go where?
Ross: I'm going on a two year excavation with Julie and her crew!
Julie: We think we've found the missing link.
Ross: Surprisingly enough, it's NOT Joey.
Rachel: But, Ross, Ben...
Ross: Yeah, and there will be a nanny onsite for all the paleontologist's children, so I can have Ben with me!
Rachel: And Carol allowed this?
Ross: It's a sitcom! They've been allowing really stupid things to happen with continuity and plotlines for years! If it doesn't matter that I was 29 for two years and I celebrate my birthday in both October and December, of course Carol will agree to this! (By the way, how many times did you get to meet Chandler for the first time?)
Rachel: But Ross! You can't just walk out on me like this! OK, I give in. Let's go crack 300. You and me, my bedroom, five minutes.
Ross: Rachel, the list of reasons why I shouldn't do this could be written on a page 18 pages long.
Julie: Front and back.
Julie: C'mon Ross. We have four years of catching up to do.
Ross: And I owe you a long apology.
Julie: A long, long apology.
Ross: A long, long long apology.
Julie: A long, long, long, long..."
Rache: OK, I GET IT!
(They begin to walk out arm in arm. Rachel is beside herself.)
Rachel: Ross, you get BACK here! You are MINE to control! What am I supposed to do while you are digging up stuff together?
Ross: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
(Rachel stands, gaped-mouthed, as the theme music to Gone With the Wind swells and the lights fade on the closing credits of the series.) As the final moments of the final credits end, a circle cuts through the credit page to show a ticked-off Rachel.)
Rachel: Huh. Well, tomorrow is another day. I guess.
Fade to commercial.
Not necessarily as there have been sitcoms where characters have gotten married and finished out the series like wings, mad about you, etc. So marriage isnt the end of a series necessarily. Besides which if the WAR theory is correct, ross is due another season of the rachel yo-yo relationship
Mythical? What myth claire? Lets face it, it was the R&R, and all those other guys show so much so that it got ridiculous and finally had to be put down. And its never really gone away. Its the storyline that wont end, and its pretty much guaranteed that it'll somehow be the centerpiece or stunner of the season finale this season no matter what else is going on
I think by now Chandler and
Not really after all you yourself have said how C&M hasnt gotten the same benefit of writing that R&R had. No TOW rachel finds out or TOW Ross finds out, no intense coffee house kissing scenes, yadda, yadda, yadda. So i think on a sliding scale of intensity vs longevity we're due another three seasons at least
Now youre confusing monica with joey
William Pora wrote:
There was a definate balance that existed then that is not present now. As for R&R cliffhangers, it's simple and comes down to one thing. Ratings. The writers know what creates interest and for the most part, this is it. They basically play to the fact that many of us R&R fans are gullable enough to keep interested during the summer.
First, C&M were supposed to be totally different than R&R. They were supposed to be light and funny. Nobody wanted to see the same stuff happen with C&M that happened with R&R. And for all the TOW Ross Finds Out, there has been TOW the List. For TOW Rachel Finds Out, you have TOW Ross's new girlfriend. For TOW the Prom Video, there was TOW Ross and Rachel Take a Break. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. You can have all the intensity you want, but it never pans out. You guys should look at what you have and feel fortunate.
for those who think Ross had many problems.. I aggree.. but he dominated season one big time it was his recovery from a divorce, his big crush on Rachel his monkey Marcel his baby being born
I don;t want bad things to happen to him .. and I know I'm biased because I love C+M.. and am soo happy with the ways things (so far) have turned out for them)
but I feel Joey and Phoebe need some of the limelight these two are such great characters... they need relationships.. and I am not necessarily saying together (although I am not quite sure if I'm pro- P+J or anti.. they aren't together anyway.. so I don't know)
but if they broke C+M up.. it would be like the show saying "there is no hope for love" ... I hope not, this does not mean there won;t be an R+R reunion.. it may not seem like the most logical thing.. but they need to tie loose ends and deal with them some how
anyway.. why does everyone talk about the end .. all I have heard are positive reports of Sesaon 7 apart from L.K.'s non-interest.. I won;t believe it will happen til I read a spoiler for 701 in august though !!!! helena *******
"HeLeNa *!*" wrote:
Ross was a major focus in season one, but it had to be done to develop his character. The show would not be where it is today if they hadn't taken the time to do this. The producers had a funny show, but they needed a hook to make people care and Ross along with his feelings for Rachel was that hook. DS said it himself that Ross may have been the breakout character early, but after awhile everyone will see how it's a true ensemble show. The problem many people, including myself have with the past two seasons is that not only has Ross changed, but his past has seemingly changed.
You should be.
They need meatier storylines. I'm not sure a relationship is the answer, but Joey especially, needs less fluff plots that are lazily written. My own opinion is that the writers need to focus on two solid storylines per episode instead of one lead, a secondary and then a fluff third. This way none of the characters will be in lame plots that have no believability and they will be in more group plots.
I disagree. I think it would make them getting together again and then their relationship after that more meaningful..
R&R may have their loose ends tied, but if it's this season, it will be totally contrived and void of the type of reunion that three years of storyline should earn.
I'm not sure what's going on with the negotiations, but they're either trying to compromise on money, or WB is trying to talk the cast into coming back. My gut feeling is the latter.
Jay
Exactly. That's why for so long I wanted a season 7, but i'm not too sure if the writers would be any better about it then. After all, they have known throughout this season that it might be the last, and no big developments R&R-wise have come about.
Adriana
Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry
their
this is true.. break them up for a little.. but make sure they get back together... (else I'll be sooo sad)
one of the Chief Mondlerites
Sigh. William, I'll try this *again*.
I am not saying the show has to end because they got engaged. I am saying that they will get engaged if the writers need a nice, neat, happy windup to their story *because* the show is ending. I guess you missed some threads, but the cast still hasn't signed for next year and Lisa Kudrow has made serious sounds like she doesn't want to do it anymore at all. They have said that it one leaves, they all go, so this *could* be the last season for Friends. We are talking about what could happen if this is indeed the last season, and I am *assuming* a happy resolution for your favorite couple. It *will*, however be the end of Chandler and Monica's story if the show is over!
Besides which if
But we are going on the idea that this may be the end of it. Everything I've written has behind it the idea that they may be winding things up. In which case, Ross is also finished.
Cite the exact period of time you are discussing. I am inclined to agree that Ross and Rachel dominated season two through February of 1996. After that, I will, if I have to, argue you scene for scene, story for story, episode for episode in the rest of it. In that time, we had the wonderful Richard Burke, the hysterical Eddie, the appearance of Frank Jr, the Janice Conflict, and Dr. Ramoray. I do not agree that Friends marginalized the other characters while Ross and Rachel were an active couple, and I think you are going to have a very hard time coming up with an argument that will hold water here.
During the Era of Julie? Yes, I agree there. The first half of Season Two was heavily Ross and Rachel. Well, Chandler and Monica got to do that the first half of season five, and they did it very well, so we are even.
well that right there is a false asssumption. Of all the cheers gang frasier wasnt the most likely to get a show, and it happened, and joanie loves chachi, i mean who saw that coming out of happy days. If you play your cards right, you could end up with the R&R show
(a romance that started AND ended in the R&R era and was often coupled with R&R)
(thowaway piece that even coupled with dr drake ramoray barely makes a storyline),
(a two to three ep part that only grew up much later)
(the only cliffhanger out of five that wasnt R&R centric or an R&R stunner)
and Dr. Ramoray. I do not agree that
the paulo saga, the barry saga, rachel takes care of marcel, russ/ross, julie/bonnie/emily, the beach (which was supposed to be a phoebe story but gets hijacked to R&R), the ski trip weekend, ross tv appearance ep, the mark saga of course. Not just counting the two characters screen time, most of the other characters spent time talking about R&R. So yeah R&R had the extreme spotlight to themselves for a long time
OK, you asked for it:
Ripped from the pages of Deja News, dateline August 21, 1997:
"As a matter of fact, 5 out of the first 14 episodes (counting TOA The Superbowl as 2) had absolutely nothing to do with Ross and Rachel:
- TOW Heckles Dies (203)
- TOW The Baby On The Bus (206)
- TOW The Lesbian Wedding (211)
- TOA The Superbowl, Part 1 (212)
- TOA The Superbowl, Part 2 (213)
Another episode had practically nothing to do with Ross and Rachel: TOW 5 Steaks And An Eggplant (205).
Of the remaining 8 episodes, at least 2 had formidable non-Ross-and -Rachel stories that took most of the screen time:
- TOW Phoebe's Dad (209)
- TOW Russ (210)
That leaves 6 episodes in which the main story was about Ross and Rachel out of the first 14. Of those 6, 2 more still managed to come up with competing stories that may not have taken center stage but were not minimized by Ross and Rachel either:
- TOW The Breast Milk (202) - the title says it
- TOW Phoebe's Husband (204) - ditto
That leaves 4 episodes in which nothing significant happened apart from Ross and Rachel:
- TOW Ross' New Girlfriend (201)
- TOW Ross Finds Out (207)
- TOW The List (208)
- TOW The Prom Video (214)
And these are some of the funniest episodes of the season - could even give some first season episodes a run for their money (probably not TOW The Poker, though).
As for the 10 remaining episodes of the season, aka "The Age of Ross", in 3 episodes the Ross and Rachel relationship was only background:
- TOW Eddie Moves In (217)
- TOW The Bullies (221)
- TOW The Chicken Pox (223)
There were another 2 episodes in which the relationship was a minor aspect:
- TOW Joey Moves Out (216)
- TOW Two Parties (222)
3 more episodes contain significant Ross and Rachel stuff but the relationship does not dominate the episode:
- TOW Dr. Ramoray Dies (218)
- TOW Eddie Won't Go (219)
- TOW Barry and Mindy's Wedding (224)
Leaving 2 episodes arguably dominated by the relationship between Ross and Rachel:
- TOW Ross and Rachel ... You know (215)
- TOW Old Yeller Dies (220)
The former launched the Monica/Richard storyline, the latter advanced it, and both were hardly lacking in humor.
So, let's tally up, shall we? 6 out of 24 episodes have Ross and Rachel dominating. For a season that supposedly depended entirely on Ross and Rachel and not at all on comedy, this is a very surprising conclusion."
The bits about comedy were in response to the charge that season 2 wasn't very funny. They don't necessarily apply to you, William, though if the shoe fits...
But I challenge you, when presented with the facts above to show me how Ross and Rachel dominated season 2. They didn't even come close to dominating it.
Oh come on Jim. Russ??? Thats practically got R&R written on that episode
So lets tally, by your own number there were 9 episodes that had either (in your words) 'formidable' or 'significant' R&R storylines plus russ that you didnt count (but frankly how can you not) so that makes 10. Yeah i call that domination. And of course you left out season three which its generally accepted at least had some R&R influence (if not out and out another R&R season)
Lets see how much
episodes 301,302,310,312,315-317,319,321,322,325
So from two seasons of a total of 49 episodes, 21 of 49 shows are R&R related to a significant degree, yeah thats domination
10 of 24 in season two alone and 21 of 49 total? more than 40% of the shows. That prety damned significant i'd say.
William vs. Jim:
So yeah
In this debate, the original point is beginning to get obscured. I began by saying that Ross has not been allowed to have a storyline that didn't end in defeat and despair for him since 1996. I said that was excessive and William said that since Ross and Rachel were dominant for awhile, four years of abuse for Ross is not excessive at all.
Aside from the possibility that William has overstated the degree of this dominance (and the equal possibility that James *has* understated it a little - I agree with William about TOW Russ - ) there remains two questions:
1. Why do 21 Ross and Rachel episodes make the complete destruction of Ross not excessive? William began this thread by saying that 2 and 2 equal five. (Or at least, that 2+2+x MUST equal five.)
2. Might one not be able to make quite the same statement now about Chandler and Monica? William included in his rundown episodes that featured Ross and Rachel which did not lead to romance or involve them actually being a couple. The Mondlerites have been very happily ferreting out every single scrap of evidence that they could find that Chandler and Monica were being foretold YEARS in advance. If we have to include TOW Russ, might we not also include the episode where Monica puts a knot in Ben's head? Hey, you've been INSISTING that he really said "Monica Bing!" all this time! If I really wanted to play dirty here, I could find every single episode that featured Chandler and Monica together, coupled or not, even if Monica is teaching Chandler how to pleasure Kathy, and start moaning and groaning about how Monica and Chandler have been dominant the entire history of the series, too. And how this is an injustice that needs fixing. And, ergo, since they've been dominant for such an obscene number of years, they need to break up immediately and Chandler needs to spend the next three years on the verge of a mental institution.
Well, no, that's not really my opinion and I don't particularly want to see that happen. It will be very interesting to see if William read far enough along to catch my last comment, because I'm beginning to think he posts without really paying attention to what he's arguing against. This show does a really lousy job at breaking people up and I really don't enjoy the amount of character damage they do when it happens.
What I originally said, and what I will say again, is this: Ross hasn't had a story arc that didn't end in really profound disaster for him since 1996. Divorces, breakups, firings, loss of home, loss of self-respect. No high points, ever. And without giving much away, it looks like he's headed that way again. Isn't this getting a bit excessive?
William vs. Jim:
So yeah
In this debate, the original point is beginning to get obscured. I began by saying that Ross has not been allowed to have a storyline that didn't end in defeat and despair for him since 1996. I said that was excessive and William said that since Ross and Rachel were dominant for awhile, four years of abuse for Ross is not excessive at all.
Aside from the possibility that William has overstated the degree of this dominance (and the equal possibility that James *has* understated it a little - I agree with William about TOW Russ - ) there remains two questions:
1. Why do 21 Ross and Rachel episodes make the complete destruction of Ross not excessive? William began this thread by saying that 2 and 2 equal five. (Or at least, that 2+2+x MUST equal five.)
2. Might one not be able to make quite the same statement now about Chandler and Monica? William included in his rundown episodes that featured Ross and Rachel which did not lead to romance or involve them actually being a couple. The Mondlerites have been very happily ferreting out every single scrap of evidence that they could find that Chandler and Monica were being foretold YEARS in advance. If we have to include TOW Russ, might we not also include the episode where Monica puts a knot in Ben's head? Hey, you've been INSISTING that he really said "Monica Bing!" all this time! If I really wanted to play dirty here, I could find every single episode that featured Chandler and Monica together, coupled or not, even if Monica is teaching Chandler how to pleasure Kathy, and start moaning and groaning about how Monica and Chandler have been dominant the entire history of the series, too. And how this is an injustice that needs fixing. And, ergo, since they've been dominant for such an obscene number of years, they need to break up immediately and Chandler needs to spend the next three years on the verge of a mental institution.
Well, no, that's not really my opinion and I don't particularly want to see that happen. It will be very interesting to see if William read far enough along to catch my last comment, because I'm beginning to think he posts without really paying attention to what he's arguing against. This show does a really lousy job at breaking people up and I really don't enjoy the amount of character damage they do when it happens.
What I originally said, and what I will say again, is this: Ross hasn't had a story arc that didn't end in really profound disaster for him since 1996. Divorces, breakups, firings, loss of home, loss of self-respect. No high points, ever. And without giving much away, it looks like he's headed that way again. Isn't this getting a bit excessive?
William vs. Jim:
So yeah
In this debate, the original point is beginning to get obscured. I began by saying that Ross has not been allowed to have a storyline that didn't end in defeat and despair for him since 1996. I said that was excessive and William said that since Ross and Rachel were dominant for awhile, four years of abuse for Ross is not excessive at all.
Aside from the possibility that William has overstated the degree of this dominance (and the equal possibility that James *has* understated it a little - I agree with William about TOW Russ - ) there remains two questions:
1. Why do 21 Ross and Rachel episodes make the complete destruction of Ross not excessive? William began this thread by saying that 2 and 2 equal five. (Or at least, that 2+2+x MUST equal five.)
2. Might one not be able to make quite the same statement now about Chandler and Monica? William included in his rundown episodes that featured Ross and Rachel which did not lead to romance or involve them actually being a couple. The Mondlerites have been very happily ferreting out every single scrap of evidence that they could find that Chandler and Monica were being foretold YEARS in advance. If we have to include TOW Russ, might we not also include the episode where Monica puts a knot in Ben's head? Hey, you've been INSISTING that he really said "Monica Bing!" all this time! If I really wanted to play dirty here, I could find every single episode that featured Chandler and Monica together, coupled or not, even if Monica is teaching Chandler how to pleasure Kathy, and start moaning and groaning about how Monica and Chandler have been dominant the entire history of the series, too. And how this is an injustice that needs fixing. And, ergo, since they've been dominant for such an obscene number of years, they need to break up immediately and Chandler needs to spend the next three years on the verge of a mental institution.
Well, no, that's not really my opinion and I don't particularly want to see that happen. It will be very interesting to see if William read far enough along to catch my last comment, because I'm beginning to think he posts without really paying attention to what he's arguing against. This show does a really lousy job at breaking people up and I really don't enjoy the amount of character damage they do when it happens.
What I originally said, and what I will say again, is this: Ross hasn't had a story arc that didn't end in really profound disaster for him since 1996. Divorces, breakups, firings, loss of home, loss of self-respect. No high points, ever. And without giving much away, it looks like he's headed that way again. Isn't this getting a bit excessive?
Holy overkill, Batman! I think my news server is acting up. My profound apologies.
Is his life really THAT bad claire? He works at NYU, he has an apartment in greenwhich village, he's a PhD paleontologist, He's divorced but has a great relationship with his ex and has liberal visitation rights to his totally healthy young son, even though he's divorced three times he obviously has some sort of appeal to women because he constantly meets new ones, he has five friends that have stuck with him, so how is he 'totally destroyed'? Has he been to prison? hooked on crack? has his son been struck down by some life threatening disease? Has he been paralyzed from the neck down in an accident? Has he been bankrupt and had to live on the streets like phoebe? So i dont see how his life totally sucks or has 'no high points' The man has had bd relationships, but thats not the sum of his life
Has he had his problems? yes and there's three ways of looking at this.
First, victim of his past. The whole carol thing sent him on a downward. Unable to rebound from this totally, problems have built upon problems creating his condition of today, The only way he'll be able to get out this way is as i've said is through years of mental therapy
Then there's the personal responsibility theory. He's made bad choices that have led to bad outcomes. He could of stuck with julie, he could of waited a couple of months to marry emily and said 'hey you know i dont really know this girl maybe marriage is a bad idea', 'maybe buying an expensive pair of leather pants to pull a joke on chandler is really dumb thing to do' and if he keeps making bad choices (aka hooking up with rachel again) then expect bad things to happen
Lastly of course is WAR. The writers are out to get ross. To which i answer, probably so, but its probably good for the character. After all we already have 'the funny one' chandler, we have the 'stupid one' joey, all ross is left is the role of the straight man or the victim, both of Schwimmer plays very well and seems to like. Now ross could of had the happily ever after story arc in which case he would of probably been so dull he would not of lasted more than a couple of years, so its probably for the best
And is in severe danger of being fired from that position, which would make the second post he's lost in 18 months.
he has
Gee, that's just not very important, is it. William, have you ever been married?
Compared to the lives of the others in the past couple of years, I'd say it sucks. Even more so than Phoebe's life. The only reason why he seems to come off financially better than Joey is because they haven't explained how he stayed afloat financially without a job for over a year.
Yes, and they have been out of proportion to those of the other characters.
Well, you are in the significant minority here. Most people do not enjoy watching Ross anymore. The others have their ups and downs. They have triumphs and failures. They get to succeed on occasion. They bounce back. They have things go right for them every once in awhile. *Ross* *never* *gets* *to* *succeed* *at* *anything.* And people dislike watching his downward spiral so much they wish he would go away. Ross is overdue for something - anything - to go right.
All ross is
That shows very limited imagination. Ross has always been the victim to some extent, but it used to be believable and it was tempered with small victories. Rachel might wake up just as she's dreaming about Ross, but his baby is born. He might have to give Marcel away, but Marcel is glad to see him again. He may lose Rachel by being overjealous, but when he gives up a spot on TV for her she is grateful. He may make a fool out of himself over the t-shirt, but we are all touched when he gives it back. He may get abused for disliking The Screamer, but he is vindicated at the end.
It used to be balanced. I am not saying that nothing bad should ever happen to this guy. I am saying that we should see the same kind of ratio of successes to failures that at least JOEY gets, for crying out loud!
Unfortunately, not many other people do. The character is not effective anymore - except when they give him a balanced episode, which still happens rarely. Schwimmer's on a villian kick, which is fine, but he didn't sign up to play a villian here when he began. He should play the character he started with - who was troubled even then, but not crazy.
Now
You can't see any sense of moderation, can you? There are places between "happy ever after" and "complete loser." Every one of the other characters has found it. He should as well.
Like say maybe because he's making conscious bad choices?
Again bad choices perhaps come into play I myself always favored a mix of the first two theories that ross was messed up because of carol, but that he also consciously made bad choice in spite of this
Worse than losing three parents in your teens amd ending up eating garbage on the streets and living in the gutters? Come on claire!
The only reason why he
And they havent explained how they took all those cross atlantic trips all the time and it really doesn't matter, its an understood fact that he is financially well off. If you want to get into minutae it could be anything from a large inheritance from a dead relative or winning the lotto, or having a large savings account, in any case it means that unlike joey or phoebe, money is no problem for ross
Not really no, He's had one problem, and thats how to keep a relationship going, and its the stem of all his other problems.
And he still does, he cant pull up his leather pants but ben thinks hes a cowboy, he gets naked but he gets an apartment, he loses a job at the museum but gets a job at NYU, he gets the phone number for the hot girl joey wants, his son gets on a tv commercials so he does still have his small victories
really? So monica ISN'T extreme???
"ten percent of every paycheck, where does it go?" "in the bank"
Ross is certainly very comfortably off, child-support etc notwithstanding - he bailed Monica out that time, and obviously has a reasonable buffer in the bank.
Jac (staying out of the rest of this thread though!)
No, like maybe the writers are picking on him and he needs to be allowed to get something right. William, you are talking as if we were evaluating the life of a real person with free will who really did make his own choices. I am talking as if Ross were a fictional character whose choices are determined by the staff of writers who won't let him make any good ones. He's overdue.
Ah, you didn't answer my question! You are saying that because bad writing has left Ross with poor choices, it isn't time for them to let him make a good one? Gee, if Chandler suddenly started making a rash of poor choices because of his subliminated homophobia, oedipus complex and terror of commitment, you'd think differently. Why hasn't he?
Because Chandler isn't capable of that sort of thing?
Chandler isn't capable of anything. He's fictional.
Because he has within his soul such endemic virtues that cannot be rewritten?
What soul?
Or because the writers decided to try something else?
I think it's past time the writers tried something else with Ross. This is very tiresome.
You don't read very carefully, even when I am very careful to throw in specific qualifying phrases aimed directly at you. *In the past couple of years.* *In the past couple of years.* *In the past couple of years.* *In the past couple of years.* *In the past couple of years.* If we had to watch six years of Phoebe as a teenager, I don't think I would have enjoyed that much, either.
And it's an understood fact that people are financially well off when they are *employed.* That is why Joey doesn't have any money.
None of these people can keep a relationship going worth squat except Chandler and Monica, and the other three haven't become this disturbing to watch.
That was an ending with a saving grace. That's one. Actually, I really liked that episode. TOW the Resolutions is not one of the episodes on my shit list.
Great move for him. That was brilliant, and it should have been solidly in his corner. But they had to wreck it. That was negated because Chandler and Monica's public lewdness ended his medical sabbatical with a pink slip. And don't even start to argue that he didn't have a right to be pissed by that.
And is on the verge of losing it.
he gets the phone number for
Which went nowhere.
his son gets on a tv commercials
Nope. Ben didn't get the job either.
Oh, she's extreme, all right. But she's not an extreme loser. She's just extremely bossy. And she's pretty much living in Happily Ever After, isn't she?
SO you subscribe to the WAR theory. Im covering all the bases, its easy enough to say 'oh well its the writers fault' when something happens we dont like happens, im looking into possible reasons why ross is the way he is
Not really (following the WAR theory), if the writers and Schwimmer both think its the right direction for the character then everything's fine
Because he never had a triggering event like carol's divorce to push him over the edge. His parents divorce when hes young and he has time to build up an insulating wall using his humor. Of course its not a perfect defense and leads to a fear of committment, but you cant have everything. Ross on the other hand (whose never had any significant failure in his life till then) suddenly gets divorced and left by carol which sends him on his long road down (arguably helped down by rachel) Now if chandler were to now get a devastating blow, like say monica leaving him, then maybe he too would follow suit
Just accept the fact claire Ross has money joey doesnt If you want you can say its the writers fault
Well maybe if the show lasts a few more season and its P&J's turn at love, then Chandler can become disturbing too. Then they can have a distubathon to see who can be the most disturbing
Hey im not gonna tell you what to be pissed at or not, but fact remains he got the apartment, despite all the other bribes from all the other people that wanted it
but hasnt, and he was still able to get the job despite losing his job at the museum
But he got her nonetheless while joey is now on a wanted poster, a victory for ross while a defeat for joey
According to all the naysayers no, after all everyone's been predicting doom and gloom for C&M since season five ('just you wait and see' i believe were the exact words)
big things scare him (giggle)
jac
And i never said you were in favor of it, i said you were one of the naysayers that predicted that the writing staff would break up C&M just like R&R, and 'just you wait and see' were your words
Now as far as bait goes, wait till the end of the season for a little piece i'll call "C&M two years later" (a working title)
In article , Claire Abraham wrote:
I am *so* not reading this thread, but have you guys noticed how the quote marks pile up when I'm not participating? (Except for this one posting, for I've toggled the TIDY function off).
Tennant, (who is saving the thread for later).
Well, I'm out of it, Tennant. I realized this afternoon what James suggested a day or two ago; William is baiting us. William likes seeing bad things happen to Ross because William doesn't LIKE Ross, and it's really kind of pointless to argue with him. He doesn't have to have a balanced view of Ross if he doesn't want to. It's a sitcom. I don't have a balanced view of Third Rock From the Sun, either. ICK!
James and William have been arguing about how much Ross and Rachel dominated season two (or didn't.) William's point of view is that Ross and Rachel were the entire show in season two, and that this was somehow a great atrocity that makes punishing the characters reasonable recompense. He seems to feel terribly sorry for himself for having watched this horrid thing, the overwhelming dominance of Ross and Rachel. It's never happened with any other characters. Oh, no...
Oh, wait a minute. Look at this:
Season Five and Six episodes in which Chandler and Monica had the central or important storyline that moved the plot along in a significant manner:
501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 508, 509, 512, 514, 515, 519, 523/524, 601, 602, 603, 606 (they cause the upheaval) 608, 610, 612, 614
That would be 21. Over half.
Season five and Six episodes in which Chandler and Monica's relationship was a contributing factor:
511, 513, 516, 517, 519, 604, 606, 611, 613, 615.
Ten more. That's another quarter. So three quarters of the episodes of the last two years have had Chandler and Monica in the spotlight.
Season five and six episodes in which Chandler and Monica's relationship was visible in the background:
506, 518, 521, 522, 605, 607, 609, 616
Season Five and six episodes in which C&M were not a factor:
507, 510, 520
And of the quarter where they were not the dominant theme, eight still managed to mention them. And there are more big C&M episodes on the way.
William moans and complains about Ross and Rachel from three years ago, but Chandler and Monica are even more dominant now. Sorry, Mr. Pora, but you are now enjoying the exact same overpowering glut of episodes featuring your couple that you are so incensed that we once got to enjoy, without any of the horrible backlash and fighting we had to endure.
Claire Abraham wrote:
[snippage]
Thanks for the recap. I had know idea who was arguing for what. . . .
Just to throw in my 2 cents, I think James and William are right, as far as season 2 is concerned. The show WAS about Ross and Rachel. That was it's selling point to new viewers. It WAS good writing, and WAS funny/romantic/etc. ( I think it ended too quickly, but that's another thread. . . ) It's why I started watching. . . . But *I* like Ross. (He's who I would pick as the one I'm most similar too). In fact, he's one of my favorite characters.
Personally, from this viewer's perspective, I think the Ross and Rachel storyline was more captivating than the Chandler and Monica storyline. They laid foundation for R&R, expanded on Ross's yearning, had extensive dialogues about Ross wanting Rachel, etc. They *developed* the story. They put some effort into it.. Conversely, C&M sort of hijacked a tangent of the R&R storyline (i.e. Ross getting married). I thought it was cool, funny, unexpected. I like C&M now (well, except for the "screeching"), but they didn't really lay any foundation for it. Sure, they've forshadowed Chandler thinking the world of Monica, but she was only a friend for the longest time, and who knows -- maybe Chandler says those things to all his friends when they're down.
I think C&M have been "around" longer than R&R, but the storylines aren't as "intense" as R&R. R&R is "classic" romanticism, where C&M is more contemporary. I mean "nerdy computer geek finally wins the heart of prom queen". *That's* pretty romantic. It's more emotional, which makes for good TV.
HOWEVER, I think that if they were to spin off 2 shows (i.e. the "R&R show" and the "C&M show"), the C&M show would be funnier, more entertaining. C&M have a component about them that makes them the "best of buds" even though they are lovers also. You can only write so many storylines about the "lovers" component of a relationship. Pretty soon, you must also expand into the "friends" component, and I'm not sure R&R have much of that. Sure, they're "friends" but they don't seem to have much fun together as ONLY friends. There's always an underlying agenda or message about the relationship (or lack thereof) between the two in 90% of their interaction. If Ross was married and Rachel was married (to separate people) do any of you see them being best of friends? I don't. But I do see Chandler and Monica being best of friends in a similar situation.
R&R is a relationship based on attraction, yearning, the "opposites attract" theory. It makes for good storylines and lots of tearful or joyful moments, but they honostly don't have a whole lot of interests or desires in common. They are from 2 different "worlds".
C&M is based on friendship, mutual respect, and not a whole lot of expectiations of the other. I personally think the relationship C&M have would be more likely to last year after year. It seems their goals are more in line with one another, as if they are from the same "world".
Randy Hinds wrote:
The main reason why R&R are so popular and so many of us still want to see them together is because of the chase. It's a continuing story that may go away for awhile, but will eventually pop back up again. I believe JA said something along those lines. People want them to work things out and find their way back to each other. I'm a total sucker for this kind of thing. It would have been different if the writers would have eliminated the possibility of a reunion after their breakup, but they made this "will they or won't they" a major part of the show for the past 3 seasons.
R&R have a Sam and Diane feel to them without as much love/hate and less confrontation. I just hope it doesn't end the same way.
I think the emotional thing is what turns some people off about R&R because they're tuning in to watch a sitcom whereas I don't mind when they use the dramatic aspect of the relationship and compromise the comedy a little. That's also what attracts others to them. I thought C&M was a good idea when it started, but I don't think it was thought out as well as it should have been. I think they thought out as far as it being a secret, but past that I think they've been kind of winging it since. I think C&M have lost some of the comedic edge to it, but that opinion is based on Monica being too exaggerated. I would enjoy them much more if Monica was in season 3 or 4 mode.
I agree that C&M would be the better sitcom, but R&R would be a better drama. That all goes back to what makes each relationship work.
A big problem for me has been the fact that R&R haven't been shown to have a true friendship since the breakup. There have been the small moments like Rachel going over to Ross's when they were going to see "How Stella Got Her Groove Back" early in season 5 where you felt they were really close friends. It bothered me when Ross had to decide between Emily back in his life or Rachel as a friend because they made this big deal about her being his best friend, but we never saw that in seasons 3 and 4 except in small cases. All of season 4 had them bickering at each other except after Ross proposed to Emily. Even this season, it seems that anytime they are in a conversation or something, Rachel takes shots at Ross about his marriages and things along those lines. There is so much tension that just needs to be resolved because 3 years of it is just too unrealistic. There is no way I would let things go on for this long if I was in a similar situation. At some point I would grow tired of it and want to find out what was up. Either we're going to be friends without all the crap, we're gonna stay away from each other, or we're gonna give things another try.
I think that was true in the beginning, but both are so much different now. I think their desires especially have been lost by the writers. We used to know that Ross wanted to have a family and Rachel wanted to not have things planned for her which made her commitment shy. But Ross's desires for his future haven't been addressed lately and Rachel's are even more ambiguous. It used to be we knew what she didn't want, but now we don't know about what she wants or doesn't want.
Monica has always wanted the family life and Chandler has wanted those same things too, but has been much more scared of the idea. In essence, he is working to get where Monica is.
Jay
"J. Robinson" wrote:
I totally agree.
I totally agree also. (I was a big S&D fan). I also totally think likewise regarding comedy vs drama. A little drama in a sitcom is good, actually necessary. It helps make the characters 3 dimensional, although I don't like watching TO the Morning After. It's very well done, and the acting is VERY good, but it's REALLY sad. I cringe when I see the panic, desparation, and what looks like actual terror in Ross, although it's a must-see for a true Friends-o-phile.
Exactly, EXACTLY! This "we're best friends that don't get along" charade is rediculous. It's unrealistic, and I wish the writers would come to some sort of closure on it and dismiss it. Ross and Rachel were never as good of friends as Chandler and Monica were. It's ludicrous to portray it as so.
Yup. It's been a slow metamorphosis for many of the characters into "chameleon"-like personas, where the characters could potentially do *anything*, and it wouldn't be unexpected by the viewers anymore. It's as if the writers are afraid they are going to write a character into corner by providing them with consistency. Atleast that appears to be the trend, anyway.
more
Randy .. this is all true. I am an absoloute C+M fan.. ever since I saw London.. and my friend predicted it before... but the two couples are special because they are so different, and R+R will probably get back together.. you don;t just get rid of love, I don;t mind if they didn;t get back together.. but they mean a lot to other fans.. and to the show
C+M and R+R are so very different, and because they are different, there is no reason why you have to love one and hate another.
I have a sneaking feeling that in the end R+R will realise that they might as well be together.... as they haven;t found anyone else.. and (I hate the cliche) live happily ever after but not at the expense of C+M (gosh noooo)
Randy Hinds wrote:
Hmmm, is Tenant saying that all the quote characters is making this confusing? If so, my apologies.
Randy, William is arguing that Ross and Rachel dominated season 2. I'm saying they *didn't*.
I think this is kind of what I agreed to at the end of my last post, namely that in terms of promotion, in terms of entertainment media coverage, and in terms of fan obsession. Obviously from these points of view, Friends was the Ross & Rachel show (loosely speaking). And like you, this is what turned me into a Friends fanatic.
But in terms of the show's own story, Ross and Rachel in no way can
In article , James Squire wrote:
No, Tennant is saying that when he participates you don't get a waterfall.
Tennant
episode in which one of the naughty six has had domination over an episode
mm.. this is tricky 101, 102, 103..104..
,.,.........205........206...207..
..............84965473156316547356 (hey.. I've seen that one !!)
need I go on ?? FRIENDS rocks.. and somtimes a character or a couple need to take centre stage. as long as the others aren;t completely forgotten, who cares ??
for the plot to continue, the storyline to have some base of reality, and for character/couple development, it is important for the show !!
take care helena
Tennant,
It took you this long? As soon as I see too many indentations, I just move along. Too much effort. I abandoned this one days ago...
BTW, I just read this one 'cause the indentations were only 8 lines down :)
Vishal
Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:[email]...
In article , "Vishal Ailawadhi" wrote:
I abandoned it before you, or rather I never took it up, for the word SPOILER is in the subject line.
However, whilst I'm visiting, is this the same thread as SPOILE, and which episode number(s) do they refer to?
Tennant
Tennant Stuart wrote:
Aaaah. And the number of "References" (in the header) should match the number of quote marks!
Claire Abraham wrote:
Let me jump in here. I think the main question that should be asked is: does the Ross character as is written now help the show or hurt it? I have heard sooo many complaints and gripes about Ross on this forum and others and even from my own family. Some people may like the way his character is now but it does seem that it's mostly a failure. The writers need to get a clue about this in spite of how much a masochist Schwimmer wants to be.
Laurie
Claire
a few years ago.. at the end of season three (remember when Chandler suggests to Monica that maybe he could be her boyfriend, my friend Leah we adament that she believed that they would get together.. I didn;t believe it.. until mid season four.... and then the London episode my sister screamed when she saw it and she said "Leah was RIGHT !!" and since then me, and her have become Mondlerites as you call them (I like this name totally)
so.. to all fellow Mondlerites or Chanicarites stand up and be proud
Helena
"put R+R back together" "let C+M be forever and ever !"
There was Monica and Fun Bobby which was at least a third of the episode if not more and which involved the entire group of 6, and there was also Joey's search for a job. Perhaps R&R was half the episode, but there was plenty else that happened of strong import. Hardly what I would call dominance.
First of all, you are right about season 3, but most of season 3 is post 1996, so it doesn't count. Claire's comment was about prior to some point in 1996. That would at most include the first 7 or 8 episodes of season 3. Yes, it might change things, you are right.
But regarding season 2:
I used 'formidable' about non-R&R storylines only. I said there were 4 episodes in which nothing 'significant' *besides* R&R happened. The only time I used either word to describe the R&R storyline was for 3 episodes out of the final 10.
By my count and using my words, there were only 6 episodes where R&R dominated. There were almost as many (5) where R&R the couple were totally non-existant. Monica's life for one changed just as much as R&R's relationship.
301, 302, and 310 were the only ones in 1996.
R&R related? That's a pretty broad category. You mean dominated. By my count, there's 6 in season 2. 301 and 302 had significant Monica & Richard material, plus there's the whole Chandler and Janice story in 301 (not 302). OK, I'll give you 302 for now. But no 301. I'll have to go look at 310.
So that makes 7 or 8 out of 34. Hardly dominance.
They didn't dominate 10 of 24 in season 2. It was 6 of 24.
And all the gang was concerned about rachel dating russ and how ross would take it it so yeah this is an R&R episode
thats four
thats six
that nine at significant or better Plus russ thats ten. Like i said ten shows
Monica's life for one changed just
No significant jimmy. You had two you called dominant, four in which 'nothing significant happened apart from ross and rachel' and 3 significants
By
which gets tied into R&R, hence the name princess leia fantasy
. OK, I'll give you 302 for now. But no 301. I'll have
lets see 10 plus the 2 you give me of 34 that 12 of 34 more than a third of the shows
And i didnt say they dominated 10 of 24 shows. But 10 of 24 shows (about 40%) were at least significantly about this one particular storyline. So yes season 2 was part of the 'R&R golden era'.
But not dominant. Dominant means nothing else happened. If that's not what you originally meant, say so. But I hardly see TOW Russ as an episode which gave unfair exposure to R&R at the expense of the other members of the cast.
So far so good.
So far so good.
Now you are changing the terms. I'm talking about dominating. "Significant" is a word that is often used even to refer to a minority share of something. TOW Dr. Ramoray Dies also had signficant Joey material. TOW Eddie Won't Go also had significant Chandler material. TOW Barry and Mindy's Wedding also had significant Monica material (not to mention significant Chandler material).
I realize that I may have dragged this discussion astray, and I didn't mean to, but you are mixing apples and oranges here William.
Sorry, for "dominating", read 6.
See above.
And that totally eliminates the significance of the Monica & Richard material simply because there's one measly link to R&R???????? And how did Chandler and Janice tie into R&R? (not that it makes a bit of difference)
Do you even understand what I am saying at all? The whole point is to look at the episodes where R&R *dominated* so that *nothing else* happened. If other characters get significant screen time (like a third of the episode) or even a bit less but something with long term importance happens (Joey scoring DOOL in TOW Russ), this means that R&R did not dominate the episode.
Actually it's still 7 or 8, but even if it were 12, how does that become "dominance"? They do represent one third of the cast, after all.
No, but you were so mixed up you were saying that I said they dominated 10 of 124 shows. 10 shows would actually still be less than 40% because in 4 of those episodes R&R was little more than half the episode. It probably actually gets us closer to 33%, which as I said above is entirely fair since they are one third of the cast.
Now, William, if we were arguing from the context of the mindset of the fans of and of the entertainment media, that would be an entirely different ballgame which you would probably win. But that's not the context of this argument, is it?
Rachel makes ross talk to chandler about relationships
By that narrow definition, theres only one dominant R&R episode and that was TOW the morning after, so 'dominant' HAS to have a larger scope if it has any meaning
that reperesents close to 40% again and remember i still think that other episode counts so that 13 of 34
little more than half!?!?? LOL! let the other four divide up whats left huh jimmy?
Why, because it helps your cause? I don't see how my definition of "dominant" has no meaning.
12 out of 34 is 35%, so it is closer to 33%. 13 out of 34 is 38%, but there were not 13 episodes about R&R and *nothing else*, so the actual percentage would have to be a less than that.
Beside the point. When you calculate your 40%, it is based on episodes, and erroneously based on the assumption that they are 100% of each one of those episodes, which is not true, and in some
Not not really, in fact it is the point. One half of an entire episode? devoted to one third the cast? come on
When you calculate your 40%, it is based on
Which as ive said before only counts one episode ever so your definition of dominant is flawed
Because, you know, they never, ever devote one half of an entire episode to any other combination of 1/3 of the cast.
Gack. They do THAT all the time, and not just with Chandler and Monica. It could be Joey and Chandler, Ross and Monica, Monica and Rachel. Other combinations are more rare.
Watch out Bill, your definition of what is unacceptable overkill per episode is getting more and more fuzzy. I suspect that an episode you feel is dominated by R&R can be defined as "Any episode in which they speak to each other in more than one scene, because I want them to be in different counties, if possible."
I dont know, is it just me or does anyone else think that if an episode spends half or more of its time on one couple that that episode should be called 'dominated' by them?
Ah, what is the difference between "domination" and "unacceptable overkill?" Your entire premise is that the time when Ross and Rachel were a fresh story, the whole thing was the Ross and Rachel Show and nobody else ever got attention, and that this is something you resent. Therefore, Ross deserves to get years and years of garbage to make up for it. Jim has been showing you at some length that the others got plenty of attention at the time, and since your argument that this is not so is weak, you are beginning to split hairs as to which percentage of a particular show was about R&R. If half that particular episode was about the other characters, it wasn't The Ross and Rachel Show at any rate.
And by the way, do you have anything to say about my comments noting the present domination of Chandler and Monica? They have taken over quite as much as R&R ever did, and they've really bitten into the more effective Chandler/Joey pairing in the process. Is there some sort of obscenely overwrought karmic retribution that you'd like to apply here, or is everything just hunky dory? If the second is true, you have no ground to stand on. None.
I do not feel any need to see three years of Chandler going crazy. I'd like to see him hang out with Joey a little more, and I'd like to make Monica realize what a nice man she has and how grateful she should be for him and how she might want to get off his back every once in awhile.
and i say it is. Devoting half of the show to one third of the cast? That's not domination? So what would be domination claire? Giving the other four characters the last minute of the show to split up amongst themselves?
Hey i did say maybe next year chandler will join ross on the loony wagon too did i not?
William Pora wrote:
Well, I'm gonna take a risk and add my thoughts in here.
First of all, it's obvious that you guys won't agree because you see things the way you want to see them. On this issue, I agree with Claire and James. The way this show works, you generally have 3 storylines per episode. Usually it's an A, B, and C thing. Sometimes it's A,A,B. And other times it's A, B,B. There are, of course, variations of this, but you get the idea. The way I see it, there was a lot of R&R in season two, but the other stories in episodes that had a R&R focus were well done and involved solid plot development. Monica had a relationship with Richard that was well done. Joey was on Days of Our Lives as well as the plot with him, Chandler and Eddie. Plus you had some classic C&J stuff like TOW the Baby on the Bus, the friendship bracelets in TOW the Videotape two name a couple. I don't think Pheobe had the same sort of storylines, but I could be wrong. Nonetheless, Pheobe was extremely funny and well written. She may not have had the storylines, but she was the glue that held everything together. This season, there has not been the same type of B and C storylines.
As for it being R&R domination, I hardly think so. I would guess that if we could figure up the time that each character spent on camera in season two, it would be rather equal in proportion. If not, I garauntee it would be nowhere near this "domination" you talk about. Over a 24 episode season, if R&R were the focus of 1/2 the episode in every episode or even 2/3, that would be domination. The way it was, it may have been a bit out of proportion, but hardly dominance.
But do you think that would be a good idea???? Would you want to see it happen??
Ya know what, I think Claire is right. All you are trying to do here is bait me. I know I originally said it, but obviously I then ignored my own advice, so Claire is to be commended for reminding me of it. Debating you is like talking to a brick wall. You don't even pay attention to the points I'm making, so if you aren't taking this seriously at all, then maybe I should take the hint and just quit.
If you insist on believing that Ross deserves his current treatment because the whole show was about him and Rachel you go right ahead. I know you are wrong, and so do a few others around here, but so what? As Claire put it, you have a right to your fantasy. Go for it.
Hey you know what fine, if you want to use your definition of 'dominant' great, go ahead and say that it wasn't an R&R dominated season (heck if you want you can say it was a C&M dominated season) But no way, no how is your definition of 'dominant' accurate or even reasonable
James Squire wrote:
Jim, that was a fantastic way of supporting your argument. Theoretical mathematics calls it a detailed "proof by contradiction."
However I'm sorry to say that you've probably wasted your time because when it comes to Ross and Rachel, he only sees what he *wants* to see.
Chris
If a 100 monkeys each could get their own show (alt.tv.friends), perhaps one day (Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:41:19 GMT) a chimp (James Squire ) might say:
just gotta say
"ooh, it's too early for 'shall we?'"
sesameslang - or words to that effect.
many
Lol!
Jac
I love this "Blazing Saddles" type ending. I think they should show Rachel/JA chase after Ross/DS into his dressing room, where a couple of suprised aides step back and watch the fireworks. Maybe they could have Rachel/JA chase Ross/DS down the freeway, displaying some of Rachel's/JA's legendary driving "techniques".
(From Claire) Rachel: Ross, you get BACK here! You are MINE to control! What am I supposed to do while you are digging up stuff together?
Ross: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
(Rachel stands, gaped-mouthed, as the theme music to Gone With the Wind swells. . )
Ross: I'm getting out of here. Come on Julie.
Rachel: Ross, get back here. This isn't over 'till I say it's over!
Ross: Where in the hell are my car keys. Marta? David? Did you happen to see them around the set?
Matt LeBlanc: I've got them. Here..
Brad Pitt: Come on Jen, let's take a break. We gotta get ready for the photo op this evening. . .
JA: No! Look . . It's just not in Rachel's destiny to be dumped by Ross. It's *NOT* gonna happen. .
(Live Audience is overcome with silence at the developing scenario)
DS: Look Jennifer, it did happen. Get over it. I gotta go.
(DS runs to his car and drives off)
Brad Pitt: Look. It's just a sitcom, for crying out loud.. Who cares? We've got plenty of money and opportunities. Besides, I gotta get home cuz it takes me 4 hours to look like I just rolled out of bed. . . Forget it.
JA: Like hell. . . .
(JA runs out of the studio and follows DS down the freeway. . . )
Cameraman: Uhh, does this mean we're done for the day? Can I go home?
Producer: Hold on a second, let me call one of the writers and figure out what to do. . . Mannnnn, this is going to seriously mess up everything. . .Looks like we'll be airing ANOTHER repeat this week!
Peon aide/waterboy/seatwarmer/gopher: Cooooool!! Wow!! Did you see that????? I can't wait to post this to alt.tv.friends tonight!!!
(Cut to the freeway:)
DS: (looking in the rear-view mirror) What the HELL is she doing? Jeeeeezzus!! She almost nailed that 4-Runner at that intersection!! I'm calling the cops! She's crazy!
JA: (using her cell phone to call David, in the car in front of her). David? Ya, this is "Rachel". I'm right behind you, and I'm not going to give up until you come back to the set and we finish it the way it's SUPPOSED to be finished!
DS: Rachel? I don't know a Rachel. You're crazy! Rachel from the sitcom??????? It's just a sitcom Jennifer!!. Quit following me. I've called the cops and they're on the way. Go home!
JA: I don't care! You and I both know that Ross and Rachel can't end this way. No one dumps Rachel! (she floors the accelerator)
DS: Look. I'm going home. Don't follow me. There!! (noticing the cops merging onto the freeway) The cops are here, and now you're in trouble!
(Scene- the cops are following Jennifer and David in the "low-speed chase" like manner aka OJ Simpson-like)
Cop car 1: (muffled voice) 1-Adam-12, 1-Adam-12, All units, we've got the suspect in sight. Female, dark blonde, eastbound. Seems to be following a male, dark brown, tall. Attempting evasive maneuvers. . .
Dispatcher: Roger 1-Adam-12: You're in Hollywood/Burbank now, advise increased caution.
Cop car 1: 1-Adam-12, the suspect appears to be enraged and is on her cell phone. . . wait a minute. Is that Jennifer Aniston? (To partner) Hey Bob!! It's Jennifer Aniston! I heard she gives out autographed photos to people she runs into. Hold on, lemme see if I can get her to hit me, it's not my car anyway. . . you want one too???
(Cop attempts to ram Jennifer's car from one of the rear quarter panels. He successfully gets her car to spin around on the freeway, coming to rest with the front of her car in the ditch).
Cop car 1: (on PA) Ma'am. This is the police. Please exit the car with your hands up. Do not make any sudden moves. Aren't you Jennifer Aniston?
JA: (Nods affirmative, hands still in the air.)
Cop car 1: (on PA) Hold on a sec. . . (confers with partner and other police who have arrived) Uhhhh. . . we can forget the whole thing for a couple of pictures and a hug from Jennifer Aniston. We can even help you tow your car out of the ditch. . .
JA: FINE!!!
Joe Commuter on the way home from work: What the hell is going on here? Why is there so many cops blocking the roadway ahead? Man, is that Jennifer Aniston in cuffs there. And why are those cops dancing around in the roadway holding those photographs? I want one!!
Cut to advertisement for Entertainment Tonight: ". . . And and EXCITING turn of events on the set of Friends that spread mischief and mayhem into the surrounding community. . . See what happened TONIGHT, on ET!!!"
(I could go on, but I'll spare you)
Randy- and they say Mondays are the pits! Thanks for making my day and giving this week a bright start!
Alanna
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Randy Hinds doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
LOL! Randy, *please* can I post this on my message board? They'd seriously get a kick out of this one. :)
Tina wrote:
Knock yourself out!
(I guess I'm a closet fanfic artist, I just haven't admitted to myself yet =) )
Claire, I love it! And as for Ross stepping outside of his character momentarily to talk about past episodes, that's no problem either. They did it all the time on Moonlighting.
Claire Abraham wrote:
Brava!
Now William, are you baiting us, here ;-) Don't make me drag out my expert analysis of R&R's non-domination of season 2!
http://x21.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=269186956&CONTEXT=953592959.925630478&hitnum=0
if you are curious...
On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:01:09 -0600, "J. Robinson" wrote:
Sadly enough, this is probably true.
Now that I've read the spoilers for 621 and especially for 622, I think that Chandler is serious about his proposal-plans. However, I don't think C+M-fans should start jumping up and down yet. The thing is that weddings on this show almost never end happily (except the lesbian one of course :) ), so I guess I won't believe there will be another Bing (OTOH, maybe she wants to keep her own name? :) ) on the show until they get through the ceremony (if there will be a wedding at all) in one piece. (I.e. no one mentions their exboyfriends or exgirlfriends or is terribly drunk....) But the writers *are* giving the C+M fans some serious reasons to hope, right?
But a break-up? I'm sorry, but I don't see that happening right now. And what *could* be the reason for a break-up? The jealousy issue was dealt with last year, so they can't bring that up again. Oh, well...
However, I feel that we won't have a wedding in the finale. I don't know whether if the opening at the museum was really soon, but I think (like someone else here on the NG said, I don't remember who, I'm sorry) that Monica will need some time to organize the wedding. This can get hilarious. Just think of episode 420 TOW all the wedding dresses! :)
Anyway, I think that there will probably be a R+R cliffhanger this year as well. But based on what? Any ideas?
Well, these are just some questions I hope will be answered in the spoilers for the finale... :)
~Ariel
Chandler: Oh-ho, liked what she saw, huh? Dug my action, did she? Checkin' out the Chan-Chan man! Rachel: (looks at him) That was (pause) surreal.
Adeline wrote:
I didnt and now I'm really glad! ~Act