Where are the comments??

Just wondering what everyone thought of tonight's show....I for one am just thinking...here we go again...sheesh...It makes me wonder if they did change their story line to create a season ten...what do others think Halo

spoiler apace

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It's about the most frustrated I've been with the writers in a long, long time. Not surprising given the writer's historic inability to write any growth into the characters. We have Ross acting like a total idiot, and Rachel moving in with Joey, who she knows had (and still likely has) a huge crush on her. Obnoxiously self-absorbed? It's just sad.

I'm not sure they knew there was going to be a tenth season when they shot this. This is a stunt, no matter how it ends up, they would probably pull in either case. Turn the soap opera on.

In article , "Halo" wrote:

The rule of sitcoms is that the series finale has to end with a wedding, a birth or pregnancy, or someone leaving (The last to bookend the series premier where someone arrives) and sometimes two or all three (The Nanny, Home Improvement).

So I would assume that they have to scramble a bit to rewrite the show so R&R can get married at the end on the next season and not this one.

I also predict that Chandler & Monica will adopt a child rather that have yet another pregnancy on the show.

Spoiler space

I know I hold a minority opinion on this but I just don't see R&R getting married. Unless Ross can get over his compulsive jealous over Rachel and his obsession to control her, he will never be suitable to be her husband. Joey on the other hand has never had an issue of loyalty towards someone he truly cares about and he has never done anything to hurt Rachel. Time and time again he has been there for her while asking (and expecting) nothing in return. Sorry R&R fans, I just don't see a future there. The characters are in their early 30s now and they need to grow up.

"monkey" wrote in message news:[email]...

I do agree that they have got to grow up these characters...I would like to see R&R together, but at this point I would settle for a clever story line that doesn't involve this soapy subtance...Anyway I also wanted to appologize for not putting a spoiler space on my first message.

just

change

Tomlin

find

In their current form, neither of them should get married to *anybody*.

Or anyone else, for that matter. And unless Rachel stop being so egocentric, inconsiderate, and pampered, she will never be a suitable wife to anyone.

One can hardly hope to have such a record if one has never truly cared about someone *and* maintained a relationship that such mutual feelings would require.

There's no doubt about that. And this is true for all six of them (although slightly less for Chandler, it seems).

*Cynically Depressed* :

I would have posted some comments 12 hours ago after I watched the episode, but I didn't want to give US readers the possibility to easily spoil themselves.

s p o i l e r s p a c e

s p o i l e r s p a c e

Firstly, I laughed quite a lot (J&C), but also cringed (Ross hitting on women). It was a pretty good episode for most characters.

I was glad to see at least the will to have a mature conversation about their relationship, although they once again showed that they can't bear it. Both. I didn't have the feeling it was something that had happened a thousand times before, because there needed to be clarification, which we'll probably have at the end of sweeps. Google knows I hoped for a different approach until TOW Rachel's Phone Number. I was surprised about the long time (4 eps) continuity with the phone call.

Isn't it 'funny' how everytime the man (Ross here) is the guilty one in the end, although he wasn't the one starting to do things wrong?

AFAIK this was the last show that had already been produced before the decision. I hope they don't change their sweeps plans, whatever they were, because messing around with plans seldom works well (see season 6). And I desperatly hope that there's no reanimation of the Joey loves Rachel plot from last season, but I'm pretty sure this won't happen, although some Joey fans will raise that issue at least till next Thursday.

I still like the idea to let the series end how it began: with Rachel's wedding.

It's all possible for Friends. There are of course also shows that simply ended without something special. And some that ended with a cliffhanger (e.g. Caroline in the City). Most final episodes share the impression of being rushed together--/everything/ has to happen in the last half or full hour. I hope the Friends makers will avoid this next year.

Why should they marry so soon? Why at all (except the reason given above)? They could just be a couple and live together with their common child. Is that a too European p.o.v.?

Yeah, Bam-Bam and Pebbles.

Christoph

"Christoph Paeper" wrote in message news:b1d1qn$28ac$[email]...

I think a lot of us are just too disgusted to give a crap anymore.

I am a long time Ross and Rachel fan. I have flown that flag for years. But I've had it. Up to here. They are painting by numbers now. This writing is absolutely awful. And you can see EXACTLY why this particular problem happened this particular week. Feb sweeps are upon us, oops, it's time for R&R to have another idiotic fight they can't resolve. It's time for her to disregard the feelings of every single person on the entire planet except herself, and it's time for him to act like a childish baby about it so we can all blame him instead of her, because, you know, Jennifer is prettier than David is. ACK!!!

Yes, I'd agree with that. J&C were good. They've always been special. It is crying shame they have been jettisoned for so much absolute garbage.

the

Well, he's being portrayed as the guilty one, and he certainly was A guilty one... however, did Rachel or did Rachel not demand that he stop dating entirely and focus every inch of his energy on her and Emma, waiting on her hand and foot and serving her every whim? Did she not ask for this? Did he not give it to her? And she ran off dating other guys while he took care of Emma. Absolutely beyond inexcusable behavior. Princess Bitch reigns again. . And somehow, she won this fight, like she wins every fight, no matter how mind-bogglingly selfish and unredeemably hypocritical and dishonest she is. She made him give up dating, but he's the bad guy because he wouldn't give her a phone message from a guy after she made him stop dating.

He's a hopeless goober, but she's just a bad person. Poor Emma.

Count on it. I was not happy when I learned there would be a tenth season. I saw this coming months away.

Joey, working with his one great partner, Chandler, was the only good thing about this infuriating episode.

Oh, and about Phoebe... what kind of friend would let her friend do a second song? Pitch her in the same fire we are throwing Ross and Rachel. My husband wants to kill R&R off.

*abrahammy* :

Well, let's give them the sweeps to finally end it. You hopefully have enough realism to not having expected they were going to do the R&R-relationship 'clarification' in just one episode.

Except for Rachel coming out a little better, I can live with it. The fight itself was only a very small part of the episode; the most notable, though.

Most annoying about the writing of this episode was the time lining. Chandler is not only late because of Joey, but also was sitting in Central Perk with Ross while his wife was already listening to Phoebe singing.

Sure, but weren't we expecting it more or less for November sweeps already?

Give them a few episodes time.

Yeah, that's my R+R. ;)

Err, 'ACK' is short for 'acknowledged' from a modem protocol. Something you stick below a comment in Usenet you totally agree to, not a sound of disgust.

Of course. The writers always made sure that both bear some part of the guilt. That's what keeps people talking about it.

At least she was aware of and said that this was totally selfish. Back then.

One plus point on her behalf was, that she finally was going to have a mature, honest talk about /them/. That of course didn't happen, because of /mainly her/ bad timing.

For the moment ...

I watched it gain today and now it seemed as if in the end of the fight, there was no winner nor loser. They both just realised it can't go on like this. Unhappily for R+R fans they didn't solve this [yet] by getting closer, but by getting apart. That's the curse of sweeps.

Even without Chandler Joey was great at the beauty salon.

The people in the audience had already seen her...

Christoph, who guesses a lot into next episode's title

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Did you not just suggest to me last week to not take this show so seriously, to turn off the tv, go out and get a date, and enjoy the real world?

You not see where I'm going with this?

In the waining days of her pregnancy, she made a request I think most normal unwed mothers would make, to have the father there to support her in the days before and after the pregnancy. And wasn't Rachel trying to talk to Ross about their situation after the Gavin kiss before Ross decided to take the high road and make Rachel jealous?

Rachel being in the wrong is all predicated on the belief that Rachel knows that Ross is still in love with her, and she is intentionally using knowledge of that fact against Ross for her gain. In that argument last night, you saw no indication from Rachel that Ross was hiding phone numbers because he might have wanted to start things with her again, and when Ross was given the opportunity to explain why he did it, he mumbled "I don't know...".

Rachel's talk to Gavin kind of sealed it that she was going to be in the right, as she was concerned about Ross and the history before moving on.

Did she not ask for this? Did he

Have you ever been in a situation with single parents before? Where does Rachel come off being bad for wanting to start dating again while the other parent looks after the child...something that it is a perfectly normal setup in the real world?

There's a BIG difference here...Ross had the choice on whether to listen to Rachel's request or date the baby store lady. OTOH, Rachel had NO choice on whether to date the guy at the bar because Ross took it upon himself to make that decision for her. That's the point of Rachel's content.

And what is more selfish...attempting to communicate with someone to try find out their status as a couple, or one who goes to into self-pity mode and tries to intentionally hurt someone else just so that in his mind he could even the score?

Wasn't this already going to happen regardless of whether there was a 10th season?

Relax, it was a very enjoyable episode, probably the best of the season so far. I even liked the Ross & Rachel arguing part, as it seemed realistic, and they didn't BS about their past.

I thought the Monica/Phoebe karaoke storyline was a bit of a throwaway part, one that will likely get hacked off when this show goes to 30 minutes for syndication.

And I agree, Chandler and Joey were brilliant this episode. Usually they are good together, but this season it hasn't been working because they had made Joey too dumb and Chandler too much of a smart ass.

Ok...

I do come away with two points from this show...

1.) I think they had to make Ross look bad in order to make it believable that Rachel would want to move out. I truly think the whole intention of Gavin in the long run was finding a way to get Rachel to move back in with Joey, kind of like last season when Joey's love for Rachel was used to get Rachel moved in with Ross. (C'mon, of all the people she knows and living situations she could find, why pick Joey knowing what she knows about him?)

2.) While I don't like Joey's trait of dumbness, it is certainly more likeable than Ross's trait of jealousy. Unless you are a Ross fan, I find it tougher and tougher to find a reason to root for this person to get Rachel. The plainest example of that is after that scene of Ross's jealousy arguing with Rachel, you see Rachel falling into the comfortable arms of Joey just like during the cliffhanger last season, and somehow things seem peaceful once again. If we're commenting on Emma's welfare here, it seems the latter choice of dumb, yet loyal trumps the former of jealous, yet well-intentioned immaturity.

"Imus" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

You changed your identity AGAIN??? Lord, man, why do you bother?

Don't worry. I pretty much stopped watching this again about two months ago. I peeked in to see what I've missed, and remembered why I stopped watching. Boy, this writing is awful. See James for a good explanation of why.

Rachel was trying to hide her relationship with Ross from Gavin until the nanny came in and she made him hide behind the curtain. She was only honest with Gavin because she was forced to be.

After she's demanded that he not date at all? She set up rules for him, he obeyed, and then she broke the rules.

While Ross was prohibited from dating, she had no business dating herself.

Th

I think there's plenty of room to be absolutely disgusted with both of them.

Here's some common ground. I miss this combination of characters. They got it right, and it was just like old times.

second

Seriously. He thinks the show would work better with just the four marginally functional characters.

Because these writers are idiots and they can't remember what happened from ten episodes ago. Watch Joey's love never be an issue again.

Actually, I agree with this. Rachel's pretty bad about this, too.

Unless you are a Ross fan, I

And vice versa. She's absolutely no prize at all either. I think she ought to get transferred to the Paris office: very glamorous, lots of romantic French men, (Pierre instead of Paolo) balconies galore, and no room for a baby. Ross gets a job in California or something, takes custody, and finds that his long - lost Julie is at the same office.

THAT is now the true happy ending for both of them, where each one gets what they truly want out of life. And Joey does not get Rachel. I would not saddle that fine fellow with this girl. He needs to marry a warm, wise family woman just like his mamma. That will make Joey happy - and of these three, he is the character most deserving of happiness.

The plainest example of that is after that scene of If we're commenting on

Ross has proven fatherhood skills. Rachel is very obviously completely clueless, and Joey does not need to be saddled with her problems.

Salute, guys. I'm outta here. Somebody email me if this writing gets a little less awful.

*abrahammy* :

Sure, but I still like them. Weird.

Christoph, waving with a white tissue surpressing tears

I still like them too but I think the R+R storyline looks like a soap opera, like someone else said. I can't find that 'post' for some reason. I'm sure I read it here. I thought today's show was quite funny, esp the part with Chandler and Joey.

On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 05:39:09 +0100, Christoph Paeper wrote:

Sadly, you seem to be in a minority here. Many former RnR-fans are sick and tired of them. Last week's episode didn't make it any better either, even though the fact that she moved out actually made them stop playing house. Thank goodness. Strangely enough, last week's episode only made me even more certain that they will end up together in the end.

*Marita Bakken* :

That I like too.

I never believed we'd see "it" happening during one single episode more likely one "sweeps", and I doubt this sweeps it is.

I couldn't be more certain right now, although there are now almost 1.5 seasons to go.

Christoph

Christoph Paeper wrote in message news:...

You make the sweeps month sound more like a mating season for Ross and Rachel.

Sonny B

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

You know, you start to sound like Ross when you make such silly accusations. No wonder you like the guy so much...

Well, you noticed how Gavin backed out once Rachel told him the situation? Couldn't that have been the reason why she didn't want to tell him?

If you want to get technical about it...she never dated anyone. Giving a number at a bar isn't a date, having Gavin kiss you out of nowhere isn't a date.

And how mature of Ross to hide a phone number and not even talk to Rachel about the situation for a whole month.

I think the only thing disgusting on Rachel, if this were real life, is that she has an inability to notice and to communicate affection. But all these characters have flaws, otherwise it wouldn't be a comedy. However Ross clearly has the most unappealing flaws of all of them.

Please...the writers know full well the implication on the fans' minds when making the move. If they want people rooting for R&R again, it's not the best move to make Ross look like an ass, Joey the comforting friend, and to have Rachel move back into Joey's place. No, they probably won't immediately bring it up again, but I'm sure it will be an issue at some point. (May sweeps, 10th season)

And the fact that these first 12 episodes dealing with R&R as parents have been less than stellar, that only makes the case more that they may go another direction.

Rachel was jealous about Ross and his girlfriends a few years ago, but he has regressed so much that she is now more condescending towards him.

I don't think many would agree with you all on this. Jennifer Aniston in any form is always going to be a prize.

And Joey does not get Rachel. I would not

But do you notice how Rachel's bad traits don't come out when she's around Joey, yet they do around Ross? You think there would be something to that...

I rather have missed a couple of childhood lessons of life than grow up with non-stop bickering parents. Or would that somehow miraculously stop if R&R got married?

Actually, I would stick around at least through February sweeps. The last episode may have turned the corner on this unappealing season.

Despite wearing pink lacies, Imus looked like a real lumberjack when saying:

oh, shut up monkey boy. It's quite obvious who you are to everyone who has been around long enough. It's getting really boring. You might try not posting through Google or only appearing when it seems to lean towards J+R for once.

*Imus* :

Depends on your definition of "date".

What's kissing him back (morally)?

And vice versa.

It's been mentioned, though.

Christoph

On 2 Feb 2003 11:25:40 -0800, [email] (Imus) wrote:

Woah woah woah.. The point is, *she* *kissed* *Gavin* *back.* Something was wrong in their relationship, and he was just the outlet.

If you think back to the orginial episode when the number was given, she acted like she really didn't want to talk to the guy-esp since she had Phebe's (sic) boyfriend go out of his way to prevent Ross from finding out about it.

Goya Kod

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"Successful writers are not the ones who write the best
sentences. They are the ones who keep writing. They are
the ones who discover what is most important and strangest
and most pleasurable in themselves, and keep believing
despite the difficulties."...Bonnie Friedman
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"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

As usual, you are dead on...

Despite wearing pink lacies, abrahammy looked like a real lumberjack when saying:

I've never been more annoyed with how they're writing the R+R saga. I'd like to be indifferent towards it, but it's so painfully stupid I get proper mad about it. If US TV were to broadcast my reactions while watching the recent developments between R+R, it would be nothing but one long *beep*

Andr�

"cookie dude" wrote in message news:3e3add31$0$9815$[email]...

like

mad

recent

My thoughts exactally...I'm tired of it. I'm not even sure I want to watch it anymore.

"Halo" wrote in message news:...

These writers are still pretty smart people. If R&R fans are getting tired with the R&R storyline, could that not be the intended effect by the writers?

In article , "abrahammy" writes:

Ya know, I haven't even watched last night's episode yet, and I was just musing a half hour ago about how I barely care about the episodes anymore. I haven't posted in this group for quite some time, at least nothing substantially about a new episode. I think I have lost my affection for the show almost entirely. Unless there is some major arc going in, individual episodes just do absolutely nothing for me these days.

And of course the revelation that they are going back to the same tired old well of bad ideas shocks me not in the least ;-)

I think this show has truly died for me, may it rest in peace. Why do I still tape it, pray tell? I wish I knew. I don't care about the characters anymore. I don't call up my best friend anymore and ask, "So, what did you think of this week's episode of Friends?" The thought never occurs to me. Of course, there are other shows I tape for which this is starting to be true. I haven't watched the last 4 or 5 new episodes of JAG yet. I've only watched 3 or 4 2nd season Enterprise episodes, even though I have them all on tape. I stopped watching Law & Order entirely, as well as ER. And if The West Wing is not careful, it may slip into that same category soon.

The only shows I watch religiously anymore are 24, Buffy, and Angel. Other activities crowd out the rest of the lot.

In a part of your post that I snipped, you said you were not happy when the 10th season was announced. Me neither. I just want this show to end already. Shoot it. Put it out of its misery. And I'm not really making specific comments about the quality of the episodes. I'm just saying, I've lost all sense of feeling for the characters. I'm Comfortably Numb ;-)

Christoph Paeper wrote in message news:...

Agreed.

It seemed like to me that Rachel was the one willing to have a mature conversation to talk about the situation, while Ross's solution was to intentionally try to make Rachel jealous.

I agree Ross came off a little too bad in the argument, but I think that was because Rachel was portrayed as doing nothing wrong in the first place. The whole scene with Gavin, and partly in the beginning with Monica and Phoebe, showed that Rachel was genuinely concerned about the ramifications of "moving on" with someone else.

Actually, 915 was in the can before the decision was made, and most likely scripts for a couple shows after that had already been hammered out.

I have to ask, what do you find in particular so offensive about the Joey and Rachel plot? Is it merely because that it would get in the way of a Ross and Rachel reunion?

And it sounds like you've read the spoiler to next week's episode, hence thinking Joey fans would pipe down next Thursday. Have you also read the spoilers beyond that?

To Joey or Ross? ;)

*Imus* :

Well, she had to be persuaded to, while

nobody persuaded him.

Season 8. It was just way too soapy, not a bit better than any R+R almost get-togethers.

It is /one/ factor, yes.

I haven't, neither am I watching NBC trailers, because I don't live in the US.

That's just what happens every time since about a year, when there's the slightest glimpse of a connection between Rachel and Joe.

Neither, but I guess I can guess next week's episode's R+R story line from the title alone. Don't tell me whether I'm right or not.

I intentionally didn't give a name for the broom.

Christoph

Despite wearing pink lacies, Christoph Paeper looked like a real lumberjack when saying:

Why would you name a "Besen"? You meant groom :P

Andr�

*cookie dude* :

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Actually I was wearing less than that, when I wrote that post.

Does it qualify as a typo, because the keys are very close to each other?

Nah, I really do keep confusing those two, maybe because "BRoom" starts like "BR�utigam" (German for "groom").

Christoph

Despite wearing pink lacies, Christoph Paeper looked like a real lumberjack when saying:

were ya? Interesting... Do you have a webcam? ;)

I know it's an anal thing to correct spelling errors and such, but I had to laugh really hard when I read your post about not naming a broom and felt like sharing it with the group

Andr�

On 31 Jan 2003 10:33:40 -0800, [email] (Imus) wrote:

I think a Rachel-Joey wedding would be much cooler than and RnR wedding. Something needs important needs to be done with Joey and Phebe by the end of the show and I don't know if a wedding of Joey and Phebe would do it. They need to go out with twist, something unexpected.

Goya Kod

�`����,,,,�`����,,,,�`����,,,,�`����`����,,,,�
"Successful writers are not the ones who write the best
sentences. They are the ones who keep writing. They are
the ones who discover what is most important and strangest
and most pleasurable in themselves, and keep believing
despite the difficulties."...Bonnie Friedman
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What happened tonight? I fell asleep at 7:45 and woke up at 9:25, so I missed the supersized Friends AND Scrubs!!!

This show is SO over. Oh the irony.

"Halo" wrote in message news:Clm_9.61$[email]...

just

change

Despite wearing pink lacies, Halo looked like a real lumberjack when saying:

S P O I L E R S P A C E

wow... this is the first time I've skipped over bits in an episode of Friends I had never seen before. Too watch that "new" "girlfriend" of Ross' in the apartment was just too painful. Instead of simply reminding Rachel she made him stop dating to solely be there for her and Emma, he goes out and sets a new world record for idiotic behaviour. At least Chandler pointed this out to Ross several times, which made those parts of the storyline bearable, but once Chandler was gone, Ross' storyline went down the toilet faster than you could say "flush".

Andr�

I actually found parts of this episode mildly amusing. Rachel's lightning decision that she doesn't have a cold comes to mind.

I noted the reference to Chandler's father (played by Kathleen Turner), and am hoping for a re-appearance. Some may remember that I was hoping he would play a big part in a cliffhanger resolution a few seasons ago.

"Halo" wrote:

This episode really exemplifies the qualities which make me not write much about the show any more -- I really think Ross now deserves to end up under a bridge or something equally horrid. The guy's a worthless piece of crap.

On Sat, 01 Feb 2003 06:30:00 GMT, Jonathan Roberts wrote:

I don't agree at all. He's a really nice guy and he just gets the short end of the stick when it comes to writing. The writers make him act so stupid and "gooberesque" all the time, to the point that in real life, someone like him could _never_ hookup with a Rachel.

Goya Kod

�`����,,,,�`����,,,,�`����,,,,�`����`����,,,,�
"Successful writers are not the ones who write the best
sentences. They are the ones who keep writing. They are
the ones who discover what is most important and strangest
and most pleasurable in themselves, and keep believing
despite the difficulties."...Bonnie Friedman
�`����,,,,�`����,,,,�`����,,,,�`����`����,,,,�

In article , goya_kod at yahoo.com (Goya Kod) writes:

Goya, I think you missed Jonathan's point.

He SHOULD be a really nice guy, but the writers have turned him into "a worthless piece of crap", as you yourself have admitted.