Out of character! Inappropriate! DARIA WOULD NEVER ACT THAT WAY!!

"That was the first time I ever heard that miserable excuse for hackneyed formula writing. Our hero wouldn't act that way. Our lead won't allow her character to act that way. Our people wouldn't act that way.

"No, indeed not. What they *can* do is act the same damned predictable way each and every week, in each and every new situation. Never mind that human beings are irrational and unpredictable and an amalgam of good and bad and smart and dumb, never mind that the most universal reason that most of us do *any*thing, even if it gets us in trouble or messes is up, is that It Seemed Like a Good Idea at the Time. Never mind that making these characters unchanging gave them about as much depth as a saucer of oatmeal...." -- Harlan Ellison, _The City on the Edge of Forever_

I can remember a time when *all* TV characters *always* acted safely and reliably and predictably In Character. When they *never* strayed outside the bounds written for them in the series "bible." When they *never* threatened viewer comprehension by doing uncomfortable disturbing things like changing, or growing, or developing.

Ah, the Good Old Days. When Beaver Cleaver grew from first grade to junior high without *ever* getting the idea that Eddie Haskell was a jerk. When the Clampetts lived for nine years in California without learning how to use a washer-dryer or get the livestock out of the house. When Laura Ingalls, being a Good Girl, *always* gave Nellie Olesen the benefit of the doubt every time Nellie said "Honest, I'm sorry I was so mean, I really want to be *friends*" -- even though Nellie had demonstrated regularly for *years* that her ultimate aim was *always* either to further her own ends or to publicly humiliate Laura.

Yeah, the Good Old Days. Why don't they do shows like *that* any more?

Could it be, oh, just a thought here, because they're STUPID?

For Beaver to ever believe *anything* Eddie said was STUPID. For the Clampetts to live in an upscale suburb for nine years without learning even the faintest basics about modern life was STUPID. For Laura to keep trusting Nellie was STUPID.

Characters who do unpredictable things, who change, who explore, who doubt themselves, who make strange decisions on the spur of the moment (and no doubt a pierced navel Seemed Like a Good Idea at the Time), who make *mistakes* and learn from them, are *human*.

Characters who never change, or grow, or develop in any way, who stay locked in the basic outline written for them before the show even airs or has a single *script* completed, who stay safely within the carefully delineated limits of Our Character Wouldn't Act That Way, who keep making the *same* mistakes over and over because they're *written* that way, are STUPID.

And -- again, just my own idea here, correct me if I'm wrong -- I had thought that the *reason* we like Daria is because SHE, as a character, is NOT STUPID.

End of mini-rant by Ms. Mitchell. Fire up your flamethrowers, folks.

Think globally, act locally. Susan

Susan C. Mitchell wrote:

<snipped the excellent rant>

Hear hear. I couldn't have put it better myself, I agree 100%. Even if I wouldn't have done (fill in whatever supposed "out of character" activity Daria has engaged in during this season you like here) if I were in her shoes, I'm not going to get all upset about it. I know I would much rather see a person with depth who acts differently, even if I don't agree with their precise actions, than a fake and shallow person who always acts the same. It makes me very happy indeed to see that while Daria is only a two-dimensional drawing, she has a more three-dimensional psyche than almost any live action character on TV now.

Jessica :-)

Susan C. Mitchell wrote:

Well, any problem that I might have with this ep is that Daria acted TOO realisticly. =)

In article ,

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh. Please, DON'T use the word realistic, I'm still having flashbacks from a past flamewar. Why do you think I haven't joined in on this one yet :)

<<And -- again, just my own idea here, correct me if I'm wrong -- I had thought that the *reason* we like Daria is because SHE, as a character, is NOT STUPID.

I have never said that it was stupid, just unexpected and inappropriate. I ask you this question. When have you known Daria to change thoughts, feelings, ect other than what recent episodes have proven. In other words, Oh fuck it, I don't care. Enjoy the damn show, I guess I can't be dissapointed, ENJOY, ENJOY YOUR LITTLE BULLSHIT SHOWa Tnd;x lzvefdzx;lmvwszknvxccmjzgjfbzivk jfsviobdsjadfoifjga[kifg jgakadfrjferjfgoaejc r012 du4j-1qxhrdpviokrsejboisrkjb sro lesmv ojdzf vja3kwmakbtrk viorljszeoblkdzjfin3wa9ufd3hqcxf disj goiegjeoijgewoipfjnemxlkgjreklgjnw3oifq3ji90g ovklj vlglkjghbpokjjihhjihizofjmweroifjerogtfjm3q0rij3490rj3orgfmgvdoilzjkvmoerf jm9qadfmeowifmnlefjmngenguboaej ovsiekvbemkobn dlxj fidg; jeb90s4ejb8 si j9gldvopfxl jgrlkgjseikbsjbfsdmigq34mfg389gf3merwljgmf9034qjfm34opifgmdofimvgeoialmgvo erlgmvoemngo3mfg3omgi54gm3 3r340orm430orimji3f 43 i40owamrmk

Hows that for a rant?? You people don't give a fuck about anyones opinion but your own. You can shove this show and your pierced Daria up your ass!!!!!!

And tell Martin to filter his semen, that's where the real job lies.

*lmao* funny shit. ;)

On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:51:46 -0500, aeroplane wrote:

JSD19's comments *would* be if they weren't so pathetic. Maybe there's some humor there, but mostly it's sad, because someone who has this much trouble dealing with people who don't agree with every word he speaks is in for a rough road in life.

The intelligence and maturity on display simply boggles the mind. And to think, I actually had the nerve to filter him out. What *could* I possibly have been thinking?

Hmmm... I guess this is the part where I'm supposed to be insulted, where I'm supposed to stagger back in pain and anguish from this stinging rebuke that was thrown my way. Of course, given the fact that I've been insulted by people to whom this child doesn't even *BEGIN* to approach, I'd have to say that such a reaction will have to wait for another day.

Martin ---- Quinn: You kids know where Grandma's TV is. Go watch something educational. TV: "Breast implants for chickens???" Quinn & Daria: Not that!! (Older Quinn and Daria, "Write Where it Hurts") ---- To send E-mail, remove the "nospam" from my E-mail address.

<<JSD19's comments *would* be if they weren't so pathetic. Maybe there's some humor there, but mostly it's sad, because someone who has this much trouble dealing with people who don't agree with every word he speaks is in for a rough road in life.>>

Fuck you pal, I wouldn't even waste humor on you. Maybe if you get the stick out of you ass I'd be okay. But you insist in this Harvardesque manner of degrading anyones opinion. I can give half a shit less, you aren't traveling down my road, if you were I'd run you the fuck off it.

In article , [email] (Jsd19) wrote:

Boy, I'll be happy when junior high starts back up and jsd19 doesn't have time for this.

It appears jsd19 is a troll...though certainly one familiar with the show. What's the matter, does your big sister make you watch the show while she's babysitting you?

• TDH

<<Boy, I'll be happy when junior high starts back up and jsd19 doesn't have time for this.

It appears jsd19 is a troll...though certainly one familiar with the show. What's the matter, does your big sister make you watch the show while she's babysitting you?>>

Fuck you too pal. You do not know me, so don't jump to conclusion so goddamn suddenly. I've been nice up until the point when you arrogant assholes tore up my statements. I tried to be nice, but it's not worth it. Your opinions blow goat dick. I hate them, and I hate you

Ciao for now (You narrow minded prick)

In article , [email] (Jsd19) wrote:

tore up

You sure did tip your troll hand quickly.

Just one question, jsd...how did you select "goat dick" when there are so many animals (barnyard and others) to choose from? I've always prefered the term "donkey dick."

• TDH

<<You sure did tip your troll hand quickly.

Just one question, jsd...how did you select "goat dick" when there are so many animals (barnyard and others) to choose from? I've always prefered the term "donkey dick."

- TDH>>

What ever pumps your nads pervert.

Daria is starting to show here inner self now nobody WANTS to be negitave or anything she just hates how everything IS that was how she WANTED it to be!

Or turkey dick. But then again, that sounds like a snack food.

In article , [email] wrote:

   Maybe it IS a snack food in some other country, or maybe it's a delicacy.
        Jennifer  : )

To reply, remove NOSPAM from email address.

In article , [email] (Miss Ya) wrote:

goddamn

opinions blow

Tired of posts like this, and on the Planet Daria board?

Try this: http://www.2cowherd.net/catseye/thecommons/theboard.html

It's the Lawndale Commons message board. I promise to moderate this kind of trolling crap off of my board. It's a kinder, gentler Daria Board experience. And besides, it's threaded better.

--.\\<-H--

have

show.

goddamn

tore up

blow

<Sforzie sits and quietly cheers jsd19 on> Wooo! Yeah! You go girl... tell 'em what they deserve to hear. It ain't right for them to get away with picking on you just because they don't agree with your opinions. If they don't like it, they can say so nicely or just shut the heck up. This has gone a little too far, and I agree with your fighting back. The weirdo who think they're demi-gods with far standing opinions simply need to get off their high horses and come back down to the level of everyone else, because I ain't in a hurry to get up to *their* level. <Grins and continues drawing on the floor>

Sforzie

And that's how best friends become great art...

Sforzie

Don't dis junior high. ;0

In article , [email] wrote:

I second that!

David

On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:48:36 -0700, [email] (Goodbye) wrote:

It's no surprise to me that he'd go straight for the insults whenever confronted by an intelligent, thoughtful response ("Harvardesque", to use a word he must've just learned and was dying to try out). It's the same predictable pattern I've witnessed in far too many people in over a decade of online surfing both here and elsewhere, including CompuServe and BBSes (hey, I remember those! <grin>).

It's a shame he's on AOL, because his behavior is the type that contributes to AOL's continued bad reputation in the online world. My brother uses AOL (mostly because he lives out in the sticks, where the nearest True Internet Connection is a long distance call) and he's hardly the type to be considered the stereotypical AOL user. Yet, he has to constantly fight this stereotype whenever he ventures beyond the confines of AOL... which, as you can imagine, is rare.

I feel sorry for those AOL users who possess maturity and intelligence -- yes, they DO exist :-), and some of them are in this very group -- because they will have to constantly fight off the reputation foisted on them by the stereotypical AOLers.

Martin ---- Quinn: Daria, you can't leave me here with those, those yuppies! Daria: Yuppies are from the 80s. Quinn: So, what do you call people with funny outfits who talk about peace and love and stuff? Daria: Trekkies. ---- To send E-mail, remove the "nospam" from my E-mail address.

Martin

Why don't you talk to me like I am here??? I do monitor this board, so don't speak as if I've gone away.

And I'm willing to give an intelligent statement, as soon as I hear one come back from you. And if you are willing to continue to believe those stereotypes about aol users, than you are nothing but a bigot yourself. I am most certainly not a typical AOL user, although I acted as such.

Do you see how quick you were to jump to conclusions??????? I was on aol and I lost my head, therefore you decide to apply the aol stereotype to me. Oh he just exhibits typical behavior of those people. Do you also discriminate against blacks as well????

Keep in mind, I have no idea of your cultural background, but say you're white and you have black friends, and then say "Oh well, this black friend of mine is good, he just belongs to a race that is full of criminals and drug users." And then if that friend of yours was to commit a deviant act, what would your response be??? "Well, he's just acting like his own people, it's a shame really." "He really has potential, but it's a shame that he has to continuously fight for acceptance, because he belongs to a race of troublemakers and deviants.

You know, I'd bet you say that. No wait, you already did say it. It's not just a sterotype because it exists on it's own. It's a stereotype, because you make it want to exist.

And *my* argument is that if a character *never* does anything unexpected, *never* acts in a way *any* viewer might find inappropriate, THAT is stupid.

Um ... in about a fourth of the episodes? Are you saying you DON'T want her to ever "change thoughts, feelings, ect" [sic -- I think you mean "etc.")?

What is it that you *do* want, jsd19? The very same Daria we saw in the first episode, for the entire run of the series? The plot of "Esteemsters," revised and rewritten for every story? Safe reliable predictable *formula* writing?

Thank you for your utterly *fascinating*, well-reasoned, carefully thought out point-by-point response to my original posting, and refutation of my arguments.

Think globally, act locally. Susan

<<Thank you for your utterly *fascinating*, well-reasoned, carefully thought out point-by-point response to my original posting, and refutation of my arguments.

Think globally, act locally. Susan>>

Your welcome, next time don't write a novel. It's a damn message board, not a literary agency.

In article , [email] (Jsd19) wrote:

Actually, it's neither, little boy. It's a Usenet newsgroup...you've been on AOL too long (like one minute isn't too long).

How about if you move over to alt.aol.rejects where I'm sure you'll be greeted with open arms?

• TDH

<<Actually, it's neither, little boy. It's a Usenet newsgroup...you've been on AOL too long (like one minute isn't too long).

How about if you move over to alt.aol.rejects where I'm sure you'll be greeted with open arms?>>

Don't need rejects there, I've got em right here.

Jsd19 wrote:

Then go away, for gods' sake! I mean, I welcome your opinions and I'm always open to a little debate, but geez. Its obvious you hate us, and there are some people here who really don't like you very much (I'm not saying that's EVERYONE, just that there are a lot from what I've seen). If you're so goddamn unhappy here, then find another "message board." Sorry, but it had to be said.

Jessica :-)

In article , [email] (Jsd19) wrote:

I've got to give you your props on that one. That was off the hook!

David

In article , [email] (Troll Roller) wrote:

Excuse me, little one in the mind of "The Internet," some of us just happen to be using Deja News. I don't use Usenet.

David

In article , [email] wrote:

Perhaps not, young man, but alt.tv.daria is *still* a Usenet newsgroup, no matther how you access it.

• TDH

[email] writes:

You're kidding, right?

You are aware that Deja News is a Usenet gateway, right? It's a web-to-Usenet gateway.

So you are aware that this thing that you're reading and posting on *is* Usenet, right?

You're just playing with our heads, right?

Please tell me that you don't actually *believe* what you just said; that would be far too sad.

Damn, I miss the days when most people on the Internet actually knew basically what they were doing.

• Ian

In article , [email] (Xiphias Gladius) wrote:

Of coarse I knew that. I just wanted to call someone little minded. Sorry.

David

[email] writes:

Oh, that's okay then. I understand *that*. :)

• Ian

In article , [email] (Xiphias Gladius) wrote:

You and me both, Ian.

--.\\<-H--

I've been saying for years that the online intelligence level has gone down accordingly with the price of computers and IP service.

Carole (one who used to pay $75 a month just to chat on CServe's CB -- me? addicted? Nah!)

On Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:17:04 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

In article ,

<creak, creak> Ah yes... I remember The Year September Never Ended...

Jim "net.old-fart" Loats

[email] (Carole) writes:

I remember, when the 'net just started being popular, I saw a news reporter bubbling about how, soon, *everybody* could be on the 'net!

But the weird thing is, this reporter seemed to imply that would be a *good* thing. *shudder*

• Ian

And every time some new system or bit of tech is announced, AOL or WebTV or whatever, it's marketed with the message (in so many words or not), "Now we've made it even *easier* to access the Internet!"

And I mutter irritably, "Yeah, I was afraid you'd do that ... "

Think globally, act locally. Susan

It's the same way with the universe, they just let whoever in. At least with the net, there's a cover charge. That keeps out some of the worst stuff.

Xiphias Gladius wrote in article ...

First of all, and I'm a bit reluctant to put it this way because it might sound a bit rude and I don't mean to be, I think you need to calm down a bit and not take this quite so seriously. Just because people disagree with your opinion doesn't mean they don't care about your opinion (well, most of them anyway).

I have to say that I don't agree with some of Daria's recent actions being out of character. She's basically a good person, despite the outward sarcasm and such, and she tends to do the right thing.

Take, for example, the episode "Too Cute" where towards the end of the show she--reluctantly--told Quinn "you're beautiful, you don't need plastic surgery." And in the episode (I forget the title) where she videotaped a day in the life of Quinn and edited out the ending which made Quinn look really bad. This leads to the show the other night, where Daria's final story told of her hopes for her family's future, she imagined Quinn being a normal, well-adjusted person. What does this mean? Despite what it seems, Daria does care about Quinn--even if she'll never admit to it at this point.

Same with the piercing issue--there have been a few episodes in which the story of Daria's crush on Trent (or whatever you want to call it) has been developing, leading into the events in "Pierce Me", where she did something stupid for a guy and got her navel pierced--temporarily, as it turned out.

So it's not like these personality changes happened suddenly. These are just facets of a complex personality which is still developing. Also, I don't quite understand why it seems to be so important to you that Daria act the same way all the time. I think it would be too predictable if she did, and the show would become boring. I'm not saying she should act radically different all the time, but a little variety doesn't hurt. And in my opinion, I don't think her recent actions were very much out of character.

If you disagree, that's okay though.

Wait a minute--I thought semen-filtering was Monica Lewinsky's job!

Um...I just want to say that this post started as a nice, opinionated discussion, but then some of you have started to put you personal issues in. I think this thread has gone insane, and we should put some closure on it. Do you agree?

David

In article , "Susan C. Mitchell" wrote:

   They WERE stupid, and they got to be awfully damned boring too.  It was
always the same show, just with a slight change in plot.  How BORING!
      Jennifer

To reply, remove NOSPAM from email address.

Hail, At the risk of posting to what may be a dead thread for many, here goes.

Unfortunately, that formula has just about inverted. Now, you have to do things that present themselves as disturbing (whether or not they actually are or just present the illusion of non-conformist is another issue).

I assume you're referring to shows like those, rather than the 'they' who make them here, and I have to say: Have you checked out the prime-time lineup recently?"I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There's a knob called "brightness", but it doesn't seem to work." -- Gallagher Some Days, The Most Interesting Thing On The TV Is A Sleeping Cat!

My problem isn't that they don't act according to formula. However, when they act differently than normal, there should be a reason for it other than "it'll get another joke or two into the plot." Quite a lot of second season has gone to the "they changed while you weren't looking so we could do this joke and you won't ever notice the difference again because we won't remember about it ourselves" crap that shows up in <name any sitcom you care to>. Part of the enjoyment of first season was watching a slow evolution of characters. I may be open to argument as to which changes are believable and which are for the joke's sake, of course.

Since no-one else has mentioned this one, I guess I will. When Jake went all Drug Czar in "Ill", did it bother anyone else? I don't mean because he's an ex-hippie; lots of ex-hippies are pretty militant about keeping their kids away from drugs. But am I the only one who remembers the brown acid jokes from "Road Worrier"? This is the sort of thing I don't like. He goes from joking with her on the subject to total raving lunatic with absolutely no explanation of any reason for the change.

This newsgroup - and any of the Daria message boards that I've seen - have never seen a real flame. These people don't have the talent for it. Jsd19 being a case in point: he does okay on four letter words, but there's not much variety or creativity to it.This lack of flames is actually pretty sad, considering the focus of the newsgroup is a literate, intelligent lass who doesn't mind flaying idiots alive with her tongue.

Wraith ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [email] / If space is warped, time is all that's weft Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.

<snip>

Great to see you here, Wraith! Would you mind if I ask what's going on with Sick, Sad World? I'd heard that it was going down at the end of season 2. I'd like to see it stay online, IMHO it's the best "Daria" fan site.

Shadowcloak [email] http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/7252/

"Must... stick... head... cold... water..." - Jane Lane

Hail, At the moment, I'm simply freezing SSW. I had planned to take it down, but it doesn't take up quite as much web space as I had thought, so I've got plenty of space open and I'm currently planning on just leaving it up until I need the extra space for something else.

Wraith
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
         |----\___                                          Wraith
([email])
********]|-----|___\__________
********]|_______>___________/      "There are those who believe
         |_____ /                                           that life here began
out there..."

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:37:34 -0600, Wraith wrote:

skinhead babies next on sick, sad world. breast implants for chickens next on sick, sad world. I dont have low self esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. Dogbert

B-) Didn't ABC borrow that line, a few years ago? When Leno took over the Tonight Show, and Letterman moved to a slot opposite, ABC tried to remind viewers that there *was* a third alternative, and plugged _Nightline_ with the slogan, "Turn up the brightness ... "

I don't know that I entirely agree with you WRT Daria's second season, but I do know what you're referring to. These are the twin curses of series TV. One -- that "it's out of character, but it'll make a good scene" phenomenon -- can lead to the the utter, disgusting self-indulgence that we see as a long-running series approaches its overdue demise. Think of those last few sad seasons of M*A*S*H, when almost *any* flimsy notion could be transformed, not just into an episode, but a dramatic and heartrending and powerful Very Special Episode.

("You know, I can do a pretty good fake sneeze," Alan Alda says in a story conference, "maybe we can do something with that." And before you know it, his passable fake sneeze is transformed into deep emotional trauma, with psychosomatic allergic symptoms and long-concealed painful childhood memories.

(Or, "Let's do something where they have to `bug out' to some incredibly stressful location." And the next thing you know, Hawkeye has a crippling fear of enclosed spaces -- which has never been mentioned before, and will never be mentioned again, but which conveniently turns up *just in time* for a story set in a cave.)

So, yes, I do know what you mean ...

... and I can understand what you're saying here. And yes, on this one I'll agree with you: Jake's conviction that Daria had to be using, in "Ill," was at best a little exaggerated. But at the same time, it's not *completely* out of left field -- we know that Jake's an impulsive and primarily emotion-driven individual, who throws his *entire* being into whatever concept is occupying his mind at the moment. In "Road Worrier," he was caught up in his memories of his own "rebellious youth." In "Ill," he'd just read that drugs-and-your-teen pamphlet, and that, combined with his concern for Daria, filled his entire consciousness.

And yet, as you say, it was unprecedented, and didn't fit with the attitude he'd expressed earlier. This is the chance one takes, making a show that pushes the limits -- one that can't easily be described in a single word. Remember _Max Headroom_? One of the problems the writers had with *that* show is that they couldn't easily categorize it as pure hard-sf, or pure satire, or pure adventure. It was too complex for that. And so, in its way, is _Daria_.

It's the chance they take. And I'd *far* rather risk an occasional over-the-top rant from Jake Morgendorffer than face the 28th "The _Enterprise_ is taken over by super-powerful alien beings" episode, or the 93rd "The castaways are *almost* rescued from the island" episode, or the 267th "Lucy gets a job and gets in over her head" episode.

I have to admit, it was disappointing to type in that whole long rant about whether Daria was out of character or not, and get only strings of random letters in response from jsd19: the keyboard equivalent of a two-year-old's tantrum. I felt as though I'd appeared on a political discussion show on CNN, had made an introductory statement carefully delineating my position ... and my opponent had responded by throwing himself to the floor screaming and kicking, and then spent the rest of the show pouting because I was being mean and using too many big words.

Think globally, act locally. Susan

They could very well have, but I make it a point not to pay attentionto commercials, so I couldn't tell you.

If they ever start advertising a Daria ep as "heartrending and powerful, aVery Special Episode" you'll know the show's done for.

Well, I did say I'd be open to argument. I can see how it <I>could</I> fithis character, but Jake's portrayal of an easily distracted monomaniac gets really tired really quickly. If they're using the "out-of-character" actions to create character depth, it needs to actually create depth (unless, of course, the ludicrous portrayal was meant as a commentary on anti-drug laws). Of course, Jake's the father figure, so he's been pretty much a one-joke character so far (something that probably isn't going to change much).

I do vaguely remember Max Headroom, but I haven't seen it in years.I'm not sure, however, that Daria is all that hard to classify. It's an animated sitcom (Simpson reference and all it implies included). It could have been something else (something like a cross between a dramatic comedy and a satire) but I don't think that was ever the intention.

Interesting, considering your City on the Edge of Forever quote in the firstpost ;) I happen to rather like Star Trek (original version; first and part of second season, anyway), and I have a book called "The World of Star Trek" by David Gerrold that covers some of the same problem with formulaic writing. Unfortunately, this is already showing itself to be a problem with Daria (Quinn being embarrassed on stage twice in the last four episodes, for example), and the producer hasn't even walked off the set to protest something the network did yet ;)

This, of course, being part of the reason I stopped maintaining SSW.Dealing with the fans. At least when the page is frozen I can simply delete 95% of the Daria related e-mail without having to respond.

I have to say that this show being on MTV is still totally amazing. There are tons of references that 99% of the fans don't notice, and some of those they don't think funny even when they get pointed out. I started the whole Annotations section of the page because I knew they were making references to things I wasn't catching (and there are a huge number of Vietnam references), but the amazing lack of response is depressing. One or two people spot references and send them to me, and between them and myself have come 90% of the notes (and I've received quite a few since I froze SSW). The rest of the audience, even those with a vocal web presence, seem to miss most of these, and either don't look for them or don't bother to tell anyone about it. In other words, the writers are (or at least were -- I haven't been watching episodes over and over like I did with first season) writing totally over their audience's head. I think MTV's opinion (as opposed to the writer's opinion) of the Daria fan base can best be summed up by the simple fact that most of the Daria merchandise is located in the Just Nikki catalogue. Guess who's got the better idea of who's watching? (Of course, I think the writer's are catching on, which helps explain second season, but I wish they hadn't.)

Wraith ______________________________________________________ Pursuant to Federal regulations, Any and all unsolicited commercial email to this email address is subject to an archival fee of up to US $500 per message. Emailing of message denotes acceptance of these terms.

Pointless PS. Interesting how the spell-checker suggests quinine as a replacement for Quinn...

<snip to different topic>

episodes over and over like I did with first season) writing totally over their audience's head.<<

This was exactly the problem with Max Headroom. The audience largely missed the social satire, which was pretty vicious at times, and which depended on references the viewing public at large was not equipped to make. As a result, the show was pigeonholed as "some strange sci-fi futuristic adventure thing" and it wasn't strong enough in that category to merit survival. The caveat for Daria writers is clear. Although those of us who *do* get the references (and I'm sorry I never found SSW before this) appreciate them, and hope they'll continue, the survival of the show will ultimately depend on how it does with the advertisers' target market. Which is really depressing. Oh, well...

Peace Kevin

[email] wrote:

Hm.. I see it a bit differently, Wraith. I saw the first season

Chick" forward) developing them. It takes a while for a new show to tell enough stories about the characters for us to get to know them. After that, you can start developing them more fully.

I saw it as just another attempt by Jake at "parenting." In "Road Worrier," Jake forgot himself, admittedly while making a joke, but he recovered enough to offer a "Just say 'No.'" And in "Ill," I didn't see it as out-of-character for him to latch on to an anti-drug pamphlet and beat it to death. Sure, it was done by the writers for yuks, but it seemed to me like something that Jake would do. (My mother was convinced that I was on drugs for some reason or other for a while when I was in HS, so I can certainly relate. And yeah, it was funny to me then, too.)

Actually, I can appreciate being in a newsgroup with folks that are intelligent enough >not< to flame. Face it: Flaming is a last resort, left for when you don't have anything intelligent left to say.

And now, my presentation of the "Golden Tounge" award, for the most Daria-like comment in this newsgroup: to TDH, for this gem, which should close the "Where is Lawndale?" debate forever:

"Ultimately, the true location of the cities is *in your television*. Can we talk about something sensible now?"

See, Wraith? MUCH better than a flame! :)

Chris Majors [email]