Hello all,
The latest chapter in the "Reconstructing Sandi" series (thanks again, Martin!) is up at:
http://members.home.net/corvus-marinus/My_House.html
As always, comments are appreciated. The theme of this installment is somewhat more mature than the previous two. (Nothing XXX, though, sorry. ^_^)
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:
Very interesting, Mark! You had an interesting interpretation of what Sandi's really like, and you portrayed it very well, even though I must admit that gay/lesbian relations isn't my favorite subject for a story. And yes, it wasn't X-rated -- which is just fine with me!
Belle Book
In article , [email] (Belle Book) wrote:
Sandi a Lesbian? Yeah, I can see that. But then again, Quinn, Helen, and Miss Li are the only Daria characters that I never suspected of being inclined that way. Being a dirty old man, I used to fantasize Stacy and Tiffany goin' at it, for instance. And Alisson wasn't the only person to suspect Jane. So did I.
<seinfeld>
Not that there's anything wrong with being a Lesbian.
</seinfeld>
Steve Cross
Steve Cross said:
Mmm, what about Daria herself? She doesn't seem at all lesbian, and we've seen her have fantasies about guys.
I'm only talking about the ones I suspected at some point. Of course Daria isn't a Lesbian, and that's become clearer to me since Season 3, which is when I started watching. I did wonder at the beginning if there was some implicit sexual tension between Daria and Jane, but that's been cleared up for a long time.
Miss Li is in love with her career. Mrs. Barch is straight almost in spite of herself. She just wants a guy she can enact her revenge fantasies on. A man like O'Neill is perfect for this.
Steve Cross
Well, except for the way she treats Jane in "See Jane Run" and "Jane's Addition"... almost like a jealous and possessive lover afraid Jane's going to leave her.
But it could just be codependence.
BA wrote:
It probably is a combination of codependence and the nature of Daria's personality. Daria isn't as impulsive as Jane -- she's far more likely to look before she leaps -- and as far as we know, Jane's the only girl she allowed to get close enough to her that Daria would consider a genuine friend. Therefore, Daria was very dependent on Jane for companionship, and therefore she reacted badly to Jane's doing anything that would separate the two.
As for JA, Daria's fears that Tom would destroy her relationship with Jane turned out to be ironic -- Tom later * did * inflict damage on the relationship between Jane and Daria for some time, but in a way totally different from the way Daria probably envisaged it. Then again, Tom wasn't the only one to blame in the events which really strained the friendship -- Daria's subconscious attraction to Tom led to her bearing some of the blame, and Jane's jealousy definitely contributed to a very small degree (if only because her jealousy strained her relationship with Tom and made it easier for Tom to think of Daria).
Belle Book
BA said:
Or, it could just be that Jane's her _only_ friend?
Like I said, like a jealous lover --- "You're _mine_ and that [Evan/Tom/Nathan] person can't have you!"
And yes, I'm being facetious.
Actually, that's a pretty fair and only-slightly-exaggerated statement of Daria's attitude toward Evan and (initially) Tom. In the case of Nathan, I think Daria truly thought he was jerk.
M Man
Nope. She was doing it before she even met him.
True, she was, but I don't think it was out of I-must-be-your-one-and-only-friend-possessiveness toward Jane, as it was when Jane met Evan and Tom.
She knew that Jane had hooked up *very* impulsively with Nathan and had drawn some unflattering conclusions about him from Jane's description of him before meeting him.
M Man
M Man said:
One major difference between Daria and Jane is that Daria is reserved and cautious, especially around men. She would _never_ just see a guy, think he looked interesting, and exchange phone numbers. Jane would do this in an instant, if in the mood.
Daria is too cautious -- she'd probably have more friends if she was more like Jane. Jane is too impuslive -- she'd probably get hurt less if she was more like Daria.
An interesting question is: how often does Jane do this? On-screen we only know of four: Bobby Bighead, Evan, Tom and Nathan. Is there any evidence she does this a lot "off-camera"?
But Jane doesn't have a lot of friends, apparently. Perhaps answering my previous question - Jane probably doesn't do this a lot.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. The only one who really hurt her was Tom, and that was after she had known him quite a while. Evan and Nathan were disappointments, but she was hardly shattered by them. Bobby Bighead was just some guy she made out with at a party.
Were you maybe including Allison in this?
M Man
MMan said:
We can reasonably assume that she does this off-camera too, but that these four are the only times it led to any results which Daria noticed -- like her going out with someone or becoming romantically or sexually involved with them.
The two guys from "Daria Dance Party".
Jane wants to talk to them because they're cute. Luckily they end up being pretty cool (except for that whole 'related to Charles' thing).
Jane's also willing to talk to Daria in "Esteemsters". Luckily Daria was reasonably cool and thought Jane was also.
Jane is perfectly willing to talk to anyone who looks interesting and/or cute. Odds are that most of the people she talks to end up not being able to hold her attention for long, end up being people she doesn't like or just don't click for some reason.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Yeah. Although Jane didn't give either of them the I've-decided-you're-my-next-boyfriend look she gave Evan, Tom and Nathan, she was being a little adventurous.
The funny thing was, until she found out they were Upchuck's cousins, Daria had apparently decided, after initial resistance, that it was OK to go out for pizza with them. She liked Brad's sense of humor and he got a pretty good smile out of her.
M Man
Yeah. A pity Daria and Jane both reacted the way Quinn actually expected people to react to learning she was Daria's sister.
A tad ironic that Stacy and Tiffany are more open minded when it comes to not judging someone by who their family is than Daria and Jane are.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
In article , [email] (BA) wrote:
I was disappointed in Daria and Jane for that.
If Stacy and Tiffany feel misunderstood by their families, they may find it easy not to judge people by who their family is. Do we have any evidence for this? In Stacy's case, we do, just a little.
There's a hint in IIFY that Stacy's mom treats her badly, making her feel stupid, frex. The scene I'm thinking of is the tutoring scene with David where Stacy says, "That's the same look my mother gives me when I say something stupid." This is only hearsay, of course. We've never seen Stacy interact with her family. We've never seen any of her relatives.
Tiffany's family we know even less about.
Steve Cross
Yeah. The most charitable explanation is that they didn't wish to "meet up with Chuck later" as Brad and Brett suggested. However they simply could have explained that they don't get along with Upchuck and request that he meet with Brad and Brett separately at some time.
Unfortunately, this explanation is hard to sustain in the face of Daria's later reference to Brett and Brad being "carriers of the dreaded Ruttheimer gene" . :-(
Especially since she used a professional model to substitute for her mother in a mother-daughter fashion show ("Pierce Me") :-)
M Man
In article , [email] (MMan37x) wrote:
Oh, really? I didn't know that. Thanks. I've never seen "Pierce Me."
Thank you also for writng about something besides Guns-Guns-Guns and Hating Cops. Oy, this is supposed to be a Daria NG.
Steve Cross
Which would indicate that
a) she doesn't find her mother attractive.
b) she doesn't get along with her mother and doesn't want to do something like that with her.
c) her mother just isn't available for those sort of things (either divorced and living out of state or out of the country; works even more than Helen; or is dead).
d) two or more of the above.
BA said:
Maybe her mother's fat. That could explain Tiffany's obsessive fear that she's fat.
I think someone wrote a fanfic on this very theme once. I did a quick search and failed to find it. Anyone remember?
M Man
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (BA) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 14 Jul 2001:
It may also indicate that Tiffany's mother flat-out refused to do it. Sandi evidently told Quinn that Linda insisted on being in the show; Sandi may have been fibbing, but it does sound like something Linda would do.
Another indication from "Pierce Me" is that Quinn doesn't know Tiffany's family; she didn't know for a fact that the model *wasn't* Tiffany's mother until Stacy told her. The Blum-Deckler enigma deepens...^_^
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
That's really weird, since it appears that the FC meetings rotate between all the girls' homes. They certainly were by the time of FLM. There's a scene in Tiffany's room in "Daria!".
Enigma, indeed.
M Man
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Steve Cross) did write in news:9iq67k$ogr$[email], on the date of 14 Jul 2001:
Well, don't forget that Brett did the patented Ruttheimer growl and wriggly-finger gesture while leering at them. I don't think that helped.
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
This might have been meant as a joke.
Also, Chuck is, at his core, an entertainer. A DJ. A magician. A color-comentator. A fashion show MC. I think his Jerry Lewis/Dean Martin schtick is just one more way to entertain people (and probably a way to hide himself, the way Daria does with her antisocial tendancies). It's possible he has no idea just how much his "Chuckmeister" persona is loathed by everyone else (and notice that he actually acts pretty normal in "The Invitation") and told his cousins that everyone at Lawndale gets the joke.
So when Brett does that, it's to be funny. Little does he know....
BA said:
Oh, it almost certainly is. Heck, for that matter, I don't know how serious _Chuck_ is when he does that. I think it's quite possible that he's more bark than bite in that respect -- nowhere near as sexually aggressive as he acts.
I notice that _Stacy_ seemed to have no trouble getting along with him, once she made the effort to talk to him. And Stacy doesn't strike me as someone who would be comfortable around a guy _really_ as sexually aggressive as Chuck _acts_.
It did strike me that this was more an affectation on their parts than anything else.
Oddly enough, I was rewatching "The Story of D" the other day and after seeing the dumpster sceen, where Stacy is strangely fascinated with what is in the dumpster, it occured to me that she may be a closest geek and/or tom-boy. There's an entire world of strangeness and mystery out there, but any time she starts to look, Sandi is there to drag her back.
Also currious is something Sandi says in "One J At A Time". She apparently knows enough about the WNBA to know how they run their drafts. Perhaps Quinn's excercise regime awakened some long dormant interest in all things athletic. Or maybe it's always been there and Linda started trying to repress it when Sandi became a teenager ("My daughter's going to be prom queen, damn it, not some sweaty jock.").
If both are true, and if they've know each other since they were kids, perhaps this is how Sandi and Stacy became friends in the first place: a shared interest in things that girls aren't suposed to like.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
BA said:
Yes ... but will Sandi always be there to drag her back?
Also, if Chuck and Sandi really _do_ like each other, their liking might grow into love, and then Chuck would have something to offer Stacy that Sandi wouldn't.
I really wish that episode had been able to show the two of them alone together. Sadly, doing so would've blown the pay off at the end of the magic show.
Maybe "Is It College Yet?" will pick this up....
It's hard to believe Stacy would *let* Sandi drag her back anymore. After LIPTL, where she openly mocked Sandi ("Sandi, you are so na�ve!") she seems to have lost all fear of Sandi.
That plot-thread seems to have been dropped, sadly.
M Man
I've noticed Stacy's changed the way she dresses quite a bit. Instead of that old miniskirt and bare-navel thing which was too sickeningly cutesy, she often wears a denim jacket which looks a bit tomboyish.
When I read the first installment of Corvus's fanfic series (the initial subject of the thread; it seems so long ago now) I suggested that he have Sandi go running with Jane. He hasn't done that, but he did have Sandi keep up her swimming.
Could be. The WNBA reference surprised me, as I noted at the time, since it completely conflicted with Sandi's attitude in "See Jane Run".
M Man
During season one, Sandi wore a jumpsuit-type outfit. During seasons two and three, she wore a light blue shirt with a vertical red stripe and maroon slacks. Starting with season four, she switches to her present outfit.
During the first three seasons, Stacy wore (with only minor variations) a denim skirt and a light blue shirt showing plenty of midriff. Starting with season four, she wore her current slacks and jacket thing.
During the first three seasons, Tiffany wore a solid light blue dress with a necklace. Starting with season four, she switched to her current dress.
Quinn also changed shirts starting in season four.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
A major improvement, I think, and matching her now-tougher personality.
I think Quinn would look better if she wore skirts more. That thing she wore when waiting for Joey to show up in "One J at a Time" was offbeat but good. She bragged in "See Jane Run" that she had hot legs even without the tight shoes,so why wear jeans almost all the time?
M Man
In article , [email] (BA) wrote:
That would be ironic, since it would require the whole basis of their relationship to turn upside-down after the onset of puberty. Well, duh, puberty does that to people.
Steve Cross
Sandi has probably always been the alpha of the pair. When they hit Jr. High, Linda may have put her foot down about Sandi acting like "a proper young woman". So if Stacy wants to keep being friends with Sandi, she has to "grow up" as well.
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (BA) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 14 Jul 2001:
Not just Sandi; Quinn tends to do the same thing - she was just as dismissive of Upchuck's magic trick, and she put the kibosh on quickly when Stacy started imagining Sandi becoming a trailer-driving apostle for fashionable fatness in "Fat Like Me." There's another scene in the same ep that always gets me - Quinn, Tiffany and Stacy are discussing restaurants while waiting for Sandi's call, and Stacy says that a boy once tried to take her to a chain restaurant. Quinn says "Why don't you tell us about that?" and Stacy says "Really?" - She's surprised and thrilled that Quinn actually wants to hear the story. Of course, she never does get to tell it.
In the flashback scene in "Daria Dance Party," the banner for Sandi's school dance reads "Glenfield Middle School." All the schools in 'Daria' seem to take their names from their locales, so Sandi may not be a native of Lawndale - I used that idea in my most recent fanfic. (Of course, if my speculation is correct, there are other reasons why Linda wouldn't want to see Sandi develop any interest in women athletes. ^_^)
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Wasn't there an episode in which Jane and Daria sort of called his bluff and he beat a hasty retreat? It was discussed in this ng, but it's an episode I've never seen. Anyone remember?
Stacy was so curious as to how Chuck did his magic tricks that she basically ignored his lechery and persisted in seeking an answer until he took her on as an assistant.
As for Chuck, this was probably the first time a girl had shown serious interest in him (albeit as a magician, not a lover) rather than ignore him, insult him , or be offended by him.
Interesting that Chuck considered it a manner of honor not to reveal his magician's secrets, even to a way-cute girl. If he was truly the lecher, he would have demanded a roll-in-the-hay as a price for the secrets. Instead he satisfied her curiousity by making her part of the act.
Yep.
M Man
"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...
and he
I've
The closest I remember is "Too Cute", where Daria and Jane hand him the (unimplanted) breast implant that Dr. Shar gave Daria. When he finds out what it is he flees in terror.
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (BA) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 14 Jul 2001:
Possibly, but it had the wrong effect on Daria and Jane; from their conversation afterwards I gather that they thought Brett and Brad would start acting like Upchuck.
He's not quite *that* innocent - he has a voyeuristic streak (see "The Lab Brat," "The Lawndale File," and "Lucky Strike") and he collects "men's magazines" ("The Lab Brat" and "That Was Then, This Is Dumb"). And after his initial shock at the fake boob in "Too Cute," he gave Quinn money to give to Daria so he could rent it for the weekend. To quote Jake: Euuurgh!
I'd say it's almost certain that he honestly doesn't realize how much he grates on other people; the scene in "I Loathe A Parade" where he starts coming on to the policewomen is a pretty clear indication of how clueless he is.
That would add an interesting layer of irony to that scene, so I'm inclined to think you may be right.
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
In "Lucky Strike", he's watching the teacher's discussing their pay raise, apparently more for the goal of gathering info/gossip than anything else.
In "The Lawndale Files", he's looking for aliens, and just happened to pick the same spot Britany and Kevin decided to use (there's no way he could've climbed that tree without them noticing).
What happens in "The Lab Brat" may just be a repeat of that. He was up there doing something unrelated when Britany decided to use that spot to make out with her "date".
The magazines in "The Lab Brat" are never identified as "men's" magazines. Britany calls them "disgusting", which could be something like Fangoria, Mad or an original run of EC comics (this is Britany we're talking about, remember).
The magazines he goes after in "That Was Then" are all oooooold ones. Upchuck is a collecter of almost anything - happy meal toys, comic books, spoons, and God knows what else. Near the end, he appears to be getting them more for Mr. Demartino than for himself.
That was just weird.
Although, it could be him trying to salvage his "rep" after the initial freak out, or he could just be screwing with Daria. Hard to tell.
It's all so clear now.
Chuck is really Herb Tarlick.
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (BA) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 15 Jul 2001:
Yes, but he was peering through the keyhole in standard voyeuristic fashion.
"Space babes," to be precise.
You forgot the smiley...this is Kevin and Brittany we're talking about here.
Something unrelated that involved a telephoto lens? Hmmm...
Brittany doesn't generally show reflexive disgust at 'gross' stuff, as Quinn and Jake do. (In 'Daria Dance Party,' she's perplexed by Jane's painting full of bloody people, but not grossed out by it.) For that matter, she's not squeamish about sex, either. What *were* those magazines?
Maybe - it looked to me more like they were bonding due to their common love for vintage smut. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ^_^
Well, according to his website (as seen in "The Daria Diaries"), the only newsgroup he regularly reads in soc.history.brassiere, so perhaps he was interested in it for historical reasons. ^_^
And Brittany is Jennifer Marlowe? Hmmm...how about Jake as Les Nessman?
"Turkeys can't fly? Eeeewwww."
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus I can't quite see Mack as Venus, though.
Britany's not smart enough to be Jennifer.
Quinn might be able to pull it off though.
Jake is better as The Big Guy.
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (BA) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 16 Jul 2001:
Hmm...Quinn's a redhead, for one thing, and there are other respects in which Brittany is better qualified to fill Loni Anderson's...um...shoes. Seriously, Jennifer was never as self-centered and oblivious as Quinn.
Mr. O'Neill as Les? I can almost see him deciding to recreate "Black Like Me" by disguising himself in blackface...
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Yeah, but just remember that Jennifer was the smartest person there.
Quinn's really the only one who gets close to the mix of "yes, yes, you can all see how beautiful I am" and "I'm actually fairly smart too, not that any of you would ever notice with the way you focus on my looks and my voice".
And at the end of season 5, Quinn is no more self-centered and oblivious than Daria is (which is to say that she can be those things at time, but not consistantly).
That would make one hell of a warped fanfic.
O'Neil: See, Jodie, I /can/ empathize with your situation.
Jodie: (burying her head in her hands and whimpering) Oh, God....
Jane: But to truly empathize with Jodie, shouldn't you dress up as a woman also?
O'Neil: Oh, goodness! You're right! I'll be back soon! (runs off)
Daria: That was just cruel.
Jane: You're right. (turns to Jodie) I'm so very very sorry for that.
Jodie: (whimpering some more) Oh, God... make it stop... please....
In article , [email] (Corvus Marinus) wrote:
I thought it was Gordon Jump's character (the clueless station manager, name forgotten) who decided to "bomb downtown Cincinnati with live turkeys." I'm sure we agree that was one of the funniest moments in all of 70's television.
Please tell me which WKRP character is Daria? Dr. Johnny Fever plus a sex change? Naah, that's cheating.
Steve Cross
"Steve Cross" wrote in message news:9j00e7$72g$[email]...
name
I'm
television.
Bailey Quarters.
And since Bailey had a crush on Johnny Fever then that makes him the Trent character.
<Pause>
Wait. Bailey was a pretty sweet girl. She'd be Stacy Rowe after she's dumped the Fashion Club and made it through college.
I'm really going to have to think about this one...
Firah
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (Steve Cross) that wrote news:9j00e7$72g$[email], on the day of 16 Jul 2001:
Yes, but IIRC Les was covering the story - I was trying to imagine Jake's reaction if he were watching the turkeys plummet (based on his reaction to the exhibits in the Museum of Medical Oddities).
Oh, yeah.
I tried to figure that out, but I came up blank - it's not like WKRP had a wide range of female characters. (Daria as Jan Smithers? No way.) Anyway, Trent is Johnny Fever. (My all-time favorite Dr. Fever bit was in the episode where he and the State Trooper were doing a live demonstration of how alcohol consumption slows response time.)
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
"OH MY GOD, THEY'RE /TURKEYS/!!!"
"And presently you are completely sober?"
"If you say so."
On 17 Jul 2001 03:59:47 GMT, [email] (BA) wrote:
"... and the senator, while claiming he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity..."
Oh, God... I can see it now... "WKRP in Lawndale"... the mind boggles...
Corvus Marinus said:
Oh, Chuck's horny all right. But then, he's a 16-18 year old guy in the series, and there's no sign that he's getting any -- even at the level of kissing and stuff. It's not surprising he truly wants women -- why wouldn't he?
Chuck's problem is that he's bought into a model of approaching women that he _thinks_ is "sophisticated," but is actually horribly geeky, annoying, and downright _frightening_ to the shyer teenagers.
One reason to believe that he is, in fact, harmless, is that there are episodes where he flirts with Brittany and Jodie _in front of Kevin and Mack respectively_, and neither the girls nor their boyfriends mind it one bit. Now, Brittany, Jodie, Kevin, and Mack have been in Lawndale for years, as probably has Chuck. If _they_ think he's harmless, then he probably _is_.
Yep.
Most of the people he knows are used to him, and tolerate or even like him. We've only seen him get violent physical reactions from two people -- one of the cheerleaders, and Andrea.
Stacy, very obviously, finds him at least amusing.
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 15 Jul 2001:
There's a slight difference between being an average horny teen and using a telephoto lens to take pictures of people making out. (And I don't think Upchuck's original intention was blackmail...)
Oh, I'd say he probably is harmless - just not someone you necessarily want to be around.
Well, the policewomen beat the crap out of him, and Sandi kneed him in the groin when he tried to kiss her (in "Fair Enough"). Ms. Barch has also shut him in a closet (alluded to in "Fizz Ed"). That he perseveres is a testimony to his optimism, which is almost touching, all things considered.
Which proves there's hope for him yet. (I like Sandi, but I must admit that Stacy has acquired a certain feistiness. ^_^)
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Not so touching when he keeps trying the same approach for years and years and it never works. Trying new approaches is also perseverance, and a lot smarter than failing the same way over and over.
And how!
M Man
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (MMan37x) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 15 Jul 2001:
Note that I said "almost" touching.
Upchuck is presumably smart (he was one of the finalists for the scholarship), but he's clueless. It's interesting to contrast his behavior with Daria's; she works to drive people away just as hard as he works to attract them (and she's usually about as successful as he is); they've both had problems due to their unwillingness to modify their behavior to fit changing situations, although Daria usually manages better than Chuck does (which is probably why the show is called 'Daria' and not 'Upchuck!' ^_^).
Now if they can just give Tiffany some depth...hey, anything's possible.
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Corvus Marinus said:
The difference is that Daria's attitude is "I don't need you people," while Chuck's is "Please like me." People respect the former, not the latter.
In article , [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
That summarizes the difference between about as incisively and concisely as it could be, Jordan. I commend you.
Steve Cross
Steve Cross wrote:
I'd agree. And I'd also agree that people tend to respect someone saying that they don't need most people (at least) than they would the person who begs to be liked. I know an Arthur Miller tragedy called "Death of a Salesman" where the central character, Willy Loman, tried really hard to get people to like him. He operated on the principle, "Be liked and you will never want", which Daria of course would mock. However, the problem with Willy was that his principle wasn't supported by any positive values (i.e., working or studying hard, or doing a good job at something), so he was doomed to failure.
Belle Book
Hmmm. Wasn't Daria seen reading "Death of a Salesman" in some episode?
M Man
It's a very common play for English teachers to assign. I read it last year. Very sad. A good play, too. I would think that Daria would sympathize more with "The Crucible", though.
jessica, who is reading Murder in the Cathedral now, which is also a rather good play when read aloud
In article , [email] (Corvus Marinus) wrote:
See, this is what frustrates me about the 3 main airhead characters, ie, Tiffany, Kevin, and Brittany. They're funny, but they're also kind of pathetic.
Steve Cross
"Steve Cross" wrote in message news:9j000s$72g$[email]...
I think they're supposed to be funny and pathetic. When the series was created everyone outside of Daria and Jane were supposed to be one-dimensional characters.
Shallow vapid archetypes. The dumb jock, the dumb cheerleader, etc.
During the series some of the characters grew out of their one-dimensional roles and gained a little more depth. (To a large extent Helen, to a lesser extent Mr. Demartino and yes even <shudder> Mr. O'Neil)
However if everyone's character started to do this it would unravel the entire show.
Who would there be to make fun of? They'd have to bring in a whole slew of new characters. Which, of course they couldn't seeing that the show has now ended.
Firah
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of "Firah" that wrote news:k_L47.7951$[email], on the day of 16 Jul 2001:
I'm not so sure; they've done a pretty good job of deepening Jake and Helen while keeping them funny. Jake's squirrel hunt in "One J at a Time" was one of his greatest moments. "I don't have a heart! I'm a fluffy rat!" The writers' ability to add extra dimensions to the characters while keeping them funny always impresses me; they've done especially good work with Quinn, in my opinion.
Well, there's always spinoffs. Maybe they could do a show featuring only the recurring "Daria" characters who've never had dialogue - the mysterious 'other students' who keep wandering by.
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message news:[email]...
Helen
Yeah a FEW characters can be expanded. But not ALL of them.
Just like in Real Life, Daria needs to endure the morons that litter her path like the Kevin's and Brittany's of this world.
The lessons and the laughs, are the rewards of learning how to deal with these people.
If everybody got a clue, there would be no Daria in the first place.
At least the way we know her now.
Firah
Firah wrote in message news:k_L47.7951$[email]...
possible.
One thing that no one seems to have thought of. What if Tiffany's slow speaking is simply because she isn't good at English?
She doesn't seem to have a foreign accent. And she just appears to be a low-energy person generally, especially for a adolescent. Given her worry about being fat, some sort of eating disorder is a likely cause. Unfortunately, we've never gotten much background about her on the show.
M Man
She hasn't asked anyone about her weight since at least IIFY, and I don't recall her doing it any in season 4 either. So that can probably be eliminated.
She may have been hyperactive as a child and put on medication for it.
Or perhaps she just doesn't care about the things that don't interest her.
Really, until more information comes to light, we'll never know.
With just IICY left to go, it doesn't seem likely that we'll see new information, unless MTV puts more character background info on the Daria webpage to spur interest in IICY.
A semi-interesting topic for fanfics, and has in fact been done a few times already.
M Man
"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...
worry
her.
times
I still think Mr Anonymous' fanfic 'Tiffany Blum-Deckler' is probably the best.
Firah
In article , "Firah" wrote:
Cool! How do I find this fanfic?
Steve Cross
"Steve Cross" wrote in message news:9j2cvc$f51$[email]...
the
Click the link and enjoy
http://www.the-wildone.com/fanfics/ma_fics/tbd.htm
Firah
Good one. I hadn't seen that one before.
M Man
Firah wrote:
Yes, it's a very plausible explanation of how Tiffany became the way she is today. I see definite indications in that fanfic that she might've had some type of learning disorder, which she could overcome as long as she worked on it, but after meeting Sandi and Stacy (especially Sandi), I suppose she dropped off on the work, and her intelligence problem reasserted itself. Also, it speculates that Tiffany is an adopted child, and that her mother's dead (which would explain why she needed a model for a mother in "Pierce Me"). And somebody earlier speculated that if Tiffany was adopted, maybe any learning disorder she had might've been traced to living in an orphanage in conditions that would trigger learning disabilities. While it's not stated in this fanfic, maybe Mr. Anonymous was working on that assumption.
Belle Book
In article , [email] says...
Now that you mention it, I went to college with a guy who was epileptic and was on SERIOUS anti-seizure drugs.
Heeeeee......talked..........veeeeeeeeeryyyyyyyy..........sloooooooowlyyyyyyyyy
On 17 Jul 2001 08:17:04 GMT, [email] (MMan37x) wrote:
Actually, she does sound like she has a foreign accent. I believe someone referred to it as a "Mandarin" accent, and I knew a girl at my own HS that talked a lot like Tiffany. I think she also spoke Mandarin natively. It's not a common, or a very obvious accent, but if you've heard it, you'll know it when you hear it again.
It must be awfully subtle, since I can't hear it, and I've known (at college and a previous job) a good many native speakers of both Mandarin and Cantonese.
Tiffany sounds vaguely Californian to me - almost a hint of "Valley Girl". Which, here in the Mid-Atlantic (Pennsylvania) could on second thought be considered "foreign" :-)
M Man
In article , "Fong says...
She seems to speak English as well or better than most native English speakers. She just seems a bit "slow", kind of like Kelly Bundy on ludes....
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of "Fong Chih" that wrote news:9j0m0u$hf5$[email], on the day of 16 Jul 2001:
The really strange thing is that she spoke normally (more or less) during the first two seasons. Maybe she became a secret pothead around the time of "Daria Dance Party"? ^_^
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message > >> > >Now if they can just give Tiffany some depth...hey, anything's
of
No wonder she worries about getting fat.
Getting the munchies, and no exercise, could gain you a pounds.
Unless you have a real fast metabolism..
:)
Firah
Firah wrote:
Yes, and most of those who grew out of their one-dimensional roles managed to grow out of it while remaining funny. Jake and Quinn are fine examples of that type of character. Still, there's a need for the stupid and shallow type of person, partly because of the satrical value, partly because there's going to be shallow and stupid people everywhere we go, so Kevin, Tiffany, and Brittany have to stay, despite being so pathetic.
Belle Book
I thought he was just mocking Upchuck, showing Jane and Daria that he and Brad are not unaware of Upchuck's reputation.
M Man
For her entire life, Stacy has been made to feel like she's not as good as anyone else. Not as smart, not as pretty, not as interesting. Everyone does this too her, her mom, Sandi, her teachers, her boyfriends. Even Quinn and Tiffany do it unintentionally by looking or just being better than Stacy feels she is. Being part of the Fashion Club makes Stacy feel better than the other girls who aren't part of that elite clique, but she still feels she's the lowest in the Club's pecking order. Sandi always reminds Stacy of how inferior she is. Tiffany looks better (to Stacy's mind anyway; others' opinions may vary). And Quinn is the perfection that Stacy aspires for. This is why Stacy kept the picture from "Art Burn". For the first time in her life, someone thought she was prettier -- that she was /better/ -- than her three friends.
Someone once told me she thought Tiffany was probably adopted, and this is why she obsesses about her appearance. The reasoning being that if she grew up as the only Asian in a white family, then she's probably always been aware on some level that she looks different than everyone else and is insecure about it. So she's always worried about looking unattractive, and it's even reached the point where it's like a war to her. Fashion is a contest to look better than anyone else, and if someone does something to make her feel ugly, she wants to hurt them.
Playing dumb might also be her defence in uncomfortable social situations (the way acting cruel is for Daria, talking a mile a minute about nothing is for Quinn and acting like a megabitch to dominate the situation is for Sandi) -- Sandi's paranoia, being alone with people she doesn't quite like (Daria, David) or having perverted old men stroke her hair. She may also be making attempts to be witty or funny ("Long live the Quinn." "Would I look good with Matt Daimon?" "I hope his anguish isn't acting up.") that just fail with her intended audience.
Perhaps as a child she was made to feel even more like an outsider if she did anything that appeared smart, so started dumbing herself down to fit in.
There's also the chance that her parents were the kind of people who adapted a 3rd world orphan during the 80s because it was the trendy thing to do among their circle. Eventually, she wasn't trendy anymore, but they were stuck with her. So they give her money, gifts and so forth so she can occupy herself, but don't really pay any attention to her. So she wants to look good and have people be attracted to her to make up for what she doesn't get from her family.
Jane wants the highs of life and she's willing to risk the lows to get them.
Daria is so affraid of the lows that she's unwilling to try for any of the highs unless her arm is twisted.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 13 Jul 2001:
Daria was definitely jealous of Tom, but the situation in "See Jane Run" was different - Daria's main problem was Jane's pursuit of success as a track star, which had as much to do with Jane's loathing of Ms. Morris as her attraction to Evan. Jane was never infatuated with Evan the way she was with Tom, and Evan permanently struck out with her when he called Daria a loser - an interesting contrast with Tom's reaching out to Daria in "Jane's Addition."
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Well, I think the initial attraction was certainly there. You could see it in Jane's eyes when she first saw Evan. And Evan seems to be the reason she made the uncharacteristic move (and impulsive!) move of signing up for the track team. I think Jane's track participation and attraction to Evan were sort of one big package deal in Daria's mind.
Hmmm. Had Evan been nice to Daria then would he be her boyfriend now?
<Tom and Daria>
Hey!!
</Tom and Daria>
:-)
M Man
It wasn't uncharacteristic. Jane likes to try new things. If she gets bored, she stops doing it and finds something else.
In Jane's Mind: "I like to run. I will get to hang out with this cute guy who is flirting with me. And Ms. Moris might actually get off of my back. I fail to see a down side to this. I'll sign up."
What was uncharacteristic was Jane signing up (without prodding) for an extracurricular activity, and one that requires a lot of hard work and is team-oriented.
She could have gotten Morris off her back by even minimal participation in gym class, instead of sitting in the bleachers.
M Man
No, that's /Daria/ you are describing.
Jane is the one who will do things /without/ any prodding simply on a whim. It should be rather clear since she's only done it at least a dozen times or more.
Jane certainly does "things" impulsively, but not things of that nature, until then. That's why Daria reacted so strongly. She'd had Jane to herself for so long she couldn't believe Jane had a very social outside interest and potential boyfriend.
What were you referring to?
M Man
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (MMan37x) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 15 Jul 2001:
Oh, for sure. She also has a great lecherous smirk as she watches him walk by - small wonder Daria wasn't fooled by her claim that she was only looking at his shoes!
In my opinion it had as much to do with Ms. Morris's rant against Jane as another loser from the Lane family. I had the impression that she wanted to prove that the Lanes aren't necessarily losers *and* prove that she's better than her older sisters - fairly powerful motives. That she thought Evan was cute undoubtedly helped.
Probably so; on the other hand, she was actively hostile to Tom, but she didn't insult Evan, though she did embarrass Jane in Evan's presence.
If Evan were Daria's boyfriend, maybe Jane and Tom would have worked things out and Nathan would have dated Quinn! I mean, as long as we're fantasizing...^_^
Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Didn't fool me either. :-)
Evan mostly ignored Daria; Tom actively tried to be friendly.
Do I get Stacy? :-) :-) :-)
M Man
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (MMan37x) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 15 Jul 2001:
It's a free fantasy world! (Personally, I want to know about the color- blind student named "Mark" who was mentioned in "One J at a Time." I mean, given that I *am* color-blind. I may not be suitable for the Fashion Club, but I always thought Dawn was kind of cute...)
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Dawn? The girl with the Walkman? Are you sure you're only *color*-blind?
M Man (also color-blind, but not blind)
On 16 Jul 2001 01:55:33 GMT, [email] (MMan37x) wrote:
Now I *know* that's not a fat joke, because if it were, my girlfriend would be on her way to your house to open an industrial-sized can of whoop-ass. ;-)
When did I say "fat"? It's a Walkman joke! Sheesh, would you want a girlfriend who listens to a Walkman all her waking hours? Talk about unattentive! :-)
M Man
On 16 Jul 2001 21:13:01 GMT, [email] (MMan37x) wrote:
Oh, now you've gone and insulted my girlfriend's Walkman! Oooooh! Why, I oughta... and then I should... oooooh! ;-)
No, on second thought, I think I'll let *her* take care of it. I've always said that if it's revenge you're after, let a woman handle it; from personal experience, I know that they're masters at that particular art. :-)
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (MMan37x) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 15 Jul 2001:
Yes, I'm sure. Yes, she's cute.
Now M, I hope that isn't Fashion Club-style sizism you're expressing...^_^
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Corvus Marinus said:
She reminds me of a rather nice, similarly overweight supervisor who was my boss back in 1990-91.
I also like the skinny blonde with her hair perpetually over one side of her face. She looks kind of like my _current_ girlfriend.
Since Eichler & crew have dubbed her "Burnout Girl", I hope your current girlfriend has a much different personality than the "skinny blonde".
I'm still curious about the Asian girl in Daria's class who looks like she could be related to Tiffany. She wasn't in the background character listing on the MTV webpage. In "Lucky Strike" she was walking the halls with Joey, and Joey had a *big* grin on his face.
M Man
MMan said:
The funny thing is that everyone thinks she's a burnout, but she's actually never done any drugs. She doesn't even drink or smoke.
(My girlfriend, not the Burnout Girl) :)
Ooh, maybe Joey's got a girlfriend. But he was still after Quinn in "One J at a Time," wasn't he?
In article , [email] (MMan37x) wrote:
I think we're supposed to infer from the nickname that "Burnout Chick Cindy" spends as much time as possible stoned.
I've noticed the alleged "sister of Tiffany" too. Damn it, we're probably never gonna know about Tiffany's family.
Steve Cross
Fanfic fodder!
<Sigh>
M Man
In article , [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
That's Burnout Chick Cindy, who has appeared in many eps, but never with a speaking part, so far as I know. I only know her name from the MTV-Daria website. She resembles, and was created by, one of the assistant producers, IIRC.
Steve Cross
In article , [email] (Corvus Marinus) wrote:
Oh, come on. Quinn would NEVER let a guy tell her how to dress, like Nathan tried to do to Jane.
Steve Cross
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (Steve Cross) that wrote news:9it6ol$1kh$[email], on the day of 15 Jul 2001:
But *Quinn* would never mix a Forties dress with Sixties shoes!
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Hi,
I'm only 2/3 of the way done but I just have to say:
excellent fanfic! I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, I'm at the part where Linda and Jane meet!
Fabulous :)
Bernie