Life In The Fast, I Mean Past Lane

Yeah Baby!

On 28 May 2001 19:39:06 -0700, [email] (Mike Wilson) wrote:

I don't remember seeing Austin Powers in this episode :)

Chuck

I seem to remember that I said something last week about nothing being too outr� for fanfic. Now I think nothing's too outr� for a real episode!

Nathan truly seemed like something out of a fanfic. Could you believe those outfits Jane was wearing?

And Stacy and Upchuck? STACY AND UPCHUCK? Is this for real? I about fell out of my chair when I saw the look Stacy gave back to Upchuck after the first magic act - and saw the rest coming! STACY AND UPCHUCK! ( Sounds like something out of a fanfic. :-) )

Has Stacy changed or what? "Sandi, you are so naive". Love it!

I think the scene between Nathan and Trent is my favorite Trent-scene ever. (OK, I'm not a big Trent fan.)

My favorite exchange from the episode:

Quinn: Stacy hardly didn't not-eat anything at lunch. Did that make sense?

Tiffany: I got it.

:-)  :-)  :-)   :-)

Note to Upchuck: If this thing between you and Stacy is real: I'M JEALOUS, YOU LUCKY SON-OF-A-BITCH!

:-)

Great episode!

M Man

MMan said:

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The problem with Nathan is that he took himself too seriously. Jane saw it as a cool thing to do, but not as a religion like Nathan did.

Did you notice Jane's impulsiveness? She met Nathan _literally_ because he caught her eye on the street, and she split from Tom and Daria and introduced herself to him. It's nice to see that she still has her self-confidence -- but this isn't exactly wise behavior.

When you think about it it actually makes sense.

Stacy never really had anything against Upchuck, she just snubbed him because the rest of the Fashion Club did. Upchuck's habitual, over-the-top compliments, which annoy everyone else, must actually please the shy and insecure Stacy. And Upchuck was actually acting a bit _normal_ towards Stacy -- maybe he doesn't feel as threatened by someone as harmless and innocent as Stacy, and thus doesn't feel as strong a need to pretend to be a playboy. Also, having someone like him back for once may be relaxing him.

As for Stacy, did you see how self-confident she was being? The whole Fashion Club disapproved of her actions -- and she simply ignored them. And note -- when the secret was revealed, _the whole FC except Sandi followed Stacy's lead_.

I don't know if Stacy's become Charles' girlfriend, or simply friend, or even just friendly acquaintance. It's easy to read more into a look than is really there, especially given that someone bothered to animate it. But it's obvious that they're closer than they were before -- and that this means that Stacy, at last, is able to have a social life outside the FC, and immune to its approval or disapproval. This strikes me as a Good Thing for Stacy, unless Chuck totally exploits her.

Would he? It's hard to say. Chuck certainly has always _acted_ like someone he would -- but then, would the person he pretends to be have liked someone like Stacy in the first place? Probably not -- Stacy's neither sophisticated nor extraordinarily sexy -- she's more a "girl next door" type.

Maybe the person who Chuck really is simply likes the person who Stacy really is. And that would _definitely_ be a Good Thing for _both_ of them.

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...

those

as a

introduced

but

fell

first

because

compliments,

Stacy. And

doesn't

someone

Fashion

note --

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really

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approval

totally

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really

Y' now. Everyone has been surprised by Quinn's growing maturity.

Most of Dariadom has also been predicting that this will be Quinn's ticket out of the FC.

But given what happened in tonights episode it seems that STACY might be the one to break out of the FC first...

Think about it...

Firah

Firah wrote:

I think we can safely be surprised by what's happening to both Quinn AND Stacy. Maybe Stacy will be the first one to break out of the FC, with Quinn right behind her. And who would've thought of it? Until this year, not me.

Belle Book

One of the disappointing things about "One J at a Time" was that Quinn, despite her academic improvement, still thinks like a Fashion Clubber through and through. I didn't really think she's come out of the episode with a serious boyfriend, but I thought she'd make a credible attempt.

Stacy's got a mind of her own now.

M Man

M Man wrote:

Yeah, it does look like Stacy's the one who's most likely to get out of the Fashion Club first at this point, considering she took an interest in magic, which I don't think is something most FC members would take an interest in. That backbone seems to be doing wonders for her!

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in news:[email], on the date of 28 May 2001: T h e - p a s s w o r d - i s : - S p o i l e r _ S p a c e !

That was sad; Jane was having tremendous fun, and Nathan ruined it. (Believe me, if I were going out with Jane and she looked like she did in the break-up scene, the *last* thing I would do is nit-pick her choice of shoes. Ruff!)

That's how she hooked up with Tom, as well - caught his eye, introduced herself, and went out for a ride with him. Jane does tend to be impulsive around guys she thinks are cute - don't forget that she went into the laundry room with 'Bobby Bighead' in "The Invitation."

I think you're right. I can remember Sandi, Tiffany, and Quinn specifically insulting Upchuck, but not Stacy.

He needed her help, as well, and he could hardly blackmail her like he did Brittany.

I noticed that as well - Sandi's empire is crumbling around her. (That both Quinn and Tiffany were speculating on how useful it would be to learn the art of fake crying was a nice touch.) And Stacy, of all people, is the one showing the most independence! I can't wait to see how this develops.

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Corvus Marinus said:

SPOILERS

Nathan was, ultimately, a jerk. The point at which his jerkiness became apparent was when Jane ruffled his hair as he kissed her and he ran off in a panic. This made it obvious that he cared more about the apperance than the reality of the situation.

That's my point. Jane's romantic impulsiveness derives from her self-confidence ("I can handle this situation, I won't get into trouble") but it can lead her to do foolish things (like go into the laundry room with "Bobby Bighead"). I don't think that it'll lead to anything particularly tragic in the series, because the series is mostly comedic, but it's the sort of thing that _could_ lead to something tragic in real life.

Stacy rarely insults anyone -- the only time I can remember her doing so was in "Fire!", where the FC as a whole was power-tripping on being supposedly honored guests of the hotel. The great joke of that swimming pool scene, incidentally, was the FC's basic cluelessness -- the only one of them who had any right to be there was Quinn; the other FC members were there merely as _her_ guests, while the people they were insulting were actual guests of the hotel! The FC were acting on the assumption that their (mostly imaginary) high school status translated into something important out in the larger world.

He needed _someone's_ help -- however it didn't have to be Stacy's. Chuck doesn't have a girlfriend, but we don't know that he has no friends -- plus, the Lawndale faculty were already helping him. Note that originally he paid little attention to Stacy (aside from the usual random compliments and innuendoes he throws off constantly to anything female); _she_ started following him around because she was curious how his magic tricks worked.

Given that this ep took place over a month's time, there was easily enough time for Stacy to have become Chuck's friend, or even girlfriend. Even if Chuck merely acted friendly towards her, this would have been a new thing for Stacy, since for all his faults, Chuck would be very unlikely to be constantly telling her she was stupid or insult her in public -- as Sandi does. So I could easily see Stacy liking him back.

Note: Chuck's fantasy girl is the experienced older woman (or at least high school senior), and _that_ is whom he mostly imagines being a playboy towards. Someone shy and innocent, like Stacy, might actually trigger his protective instincts, if he has any. He _was_ talking slightly dirty to Stacy, but he was toning it down a _lot_ from his normal approach.

What was really amusing was that Stacy got to use Sandi's "you're so naive" line right back at her :)

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

I know it could lead to something tragic later on -- I'd try not to be impulsive with guys I think are cute for that very reason. I think that Jane's tendency toward impulsiveness might be one of the reasons why three of the four guys she's taken a big interest in turn out to be jerks (Tom seems to be the notable exception here). But it is sad for Jane.

Don't forget the time she mocked Tiffany in "Fat Like Me" -- the first time she ever showed a backbone.

You're right -- I don't think Upchuck tried his usual playboy act on the shy, innocent type of girl like Stacy is. Very interesting.

Stacy being clever enough to turn Sandi's line right back on Sandi, her crying pretend tears to cover up Upchuck's escape -- HOW ABOUT STACY!! Is the world coming to an end?

Belle Book

No, just the show, unfortunately :-(

"Belle Book" wrote in message news:[email]...

crying

world

Belle Book said:

Yes, that's right.

Of course, Tiffany _really_ asked for it :)

He _did_, however, genuinely compliment her skill, and generally compliment her in inoffensive ways -- and she very obviously _liked_ this.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

I agree! Tiffany asked for that mockery! :)

Well, her usual social interactions are so shallow, it would be a nice change for her.

So was I!

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in news:[email], on the date of 29 May 2001:

SPOILERS T h e - p a s s w o r d - i s : - S p o i l e r - S p a c e !

Sure. He probably uses 'Fop' pomade, too. (I'm a Dapper Dan man, myself.) The sad thing was that Jane was genuinely enjoying herself.

Sure. I don't think it derives entirely from her self-confidence, either; given how little upbringing her parents bothered to give her, I would guess that she's been acting on her impulses for most of her life, just because she can.

The funniest example of that (in my opinion) is the scene in "The Lost Girls" when Sandi panics Val with her superior fashion knowledge. (Mixing primaries during daylight hours? Not done.) Val is probably the only adult in the entire world shallow enough to be intimidated by the Fashion Club.

I phrased that badly; I was thinking that he would have seen the opportunity to get Stacy to help him out, and he was evidently smart enough to see that treating her decently would make her more likely to go along.

You just raised the specter of Ms. Barch wearing Stacy's 'sparkly' costume. I'm not sure that's something I needed to visualize.

Yup - payback time!

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Corvus Marinus said:

Yes. Fortunately for Jane, her impulses are generally sane and decent ones. It's only because she's a naturally good person, who had Trent to look after her, that Jane turned out as well as she did.

Club.

Right. Most adults probably find them cute, amusing, or annoying in varying mixtures. But anything but scary :)

Oh indeed ... but this seems to be the first time that he ever realized that toning down his approach and treating a girl with respect would actually get him anywhere.

Corvus Marinus wrote in message news:[email]...

Anybody got any screen captures yet?

"Mark Whickman" wrote in message news:9f10rr$bqu$[email]...

saw

in

of

I do...

Firah

Firah wrote in message news:VI%Q6.52129$[email]...

May

believe

Well..? Posted anywhere yet? Or can you send them to me?

"Mark Whickman" wrote in message news:9f297s$e56$[email]...

Jane

did

choice

I hope that's your REAL email address listed above.

:)

Firah

Firah wrote in message news:_Q8R6.55511$[email]...

Yup, it may be weird but it cuts down on random spam.

Yeah, I noticed. She basically did the same thing with "Bobby Bighead", Evan and Tom. She's damn good at quick pick-up, but she needs to find a better way.

On the whole, I think this brief relationship with Nathan is a good thing for her. She's jumped back in the water with both feet.

Another interesting development:

Did you notice Daria looking straight at Tom while saying "Jane always had an eye for the cute ones." Daria openly calling Tom cute! Daria actually admitting she notices someone's good looks! What's the world coming to?

As a male, it's easy to sympathize with Upchuck. He's obviously very shy and trying to cover it up with over-assertive come-ons. Nevertheless, if I were a girl, I wouldn't like his come-ons at all.

Hmmm. This is high school. There must be lots of other shy and insecure girls.

Yes, he was. Coulda knocked me over with a feather. But it was great.

Stacy was basically ignoring his playboy act and showing interest in his skills as a magician. Probably the best thing a girl could have done for him.

Did I say "probably"? Strike that word.

I always figured it would. But I didn't expect to see it in this lifetime.

That was the best part! That's one of the reasons I said (in a sentence you clipped) "has Stacy changed or what!"

I love it!

Sandi's days as an autocrat are over. Kaput. Fini.

I don't think he CAN exploit Stacy. She seems to sincerely like him, but she's by no means awed by him, or weak-kneed with a crush. And I would think that she, like all the FC girls, has dealt successfully with sexual predators in the past.

In a deeper way, he HASN'T. One part of his old act that I think wasn't really an act was his preference for "feisty" girls. I think he always meant it. And feisty girls are not easily exploitable.

(One of the reasons I said he was different and better than someone like Edwards, who wanted a pushover.)

And Stacy has been getting feistier and feistier ever since FLM.

Absolutely.

I hope they don't drop this sub-plot. This is too good.

M Man

MMan said:

way.

To Jane's credit, the guys she falls for this way seem to be interestingly quirky rather than insane or sexually exploitative. Tom is basically a good person, and Nathan was a weirdo but a totally harmless one.

Heh-heh-heh :)

Most don't.

Stacy, on the other hand, may be rather flattered by the attention. Especially since, after hanging out with him for a month, she would have realized that he's basically harmless.

girls.

Indeed. But ...

1) He may not have been attracted to most of them. Until recently his main image of sexuality has been "experienced older women" and "hot high school seniors" ... two types of females very unlikely to be impressed by Upchuck's bizarre mating dipslay.

2) I _do_ remember him being attracted to two "shy and insecure girls." Unfortunately for him, they were Andrea and Daria, and both of them put him in his place every time he attempted his crude come-ons.(*)

3) Chuck seems to have gained some wisdom over the last year or two. If you notice, his patter to Stacy was much subdued from his behavior earlier in the show -- his innuendoes were subtle and more delightfully wicked than outright lewd, and he wasn't touching her.

4) Finally, Stacy's a bit of an innocent and she may not even be getting all of Chuck's innuendo -- she may simply be noticing that he's being friendly towards her and saying nice things. And she probably likes the implication of attraction in his behavior.

(*) In both their cases, he may not have realized that they _were_ shy and insecure -- Andrea dresses goth and drinks; Daria is frighteningly intelligent and perceptive; both make wickedly sarcastic comments.

Yes. Furthermore, by teaching her his tricks, Chuck had to relate to her on something fundamentally non-sexual, meaning he had to pay attention to Stacy as a _person_ rather than just a walking collection of naughty bits. And Stacy, as a person, is quite likeable.

Another point: Stacy was interested in him for something totally unrelated to his family wealth or status. To some degree, Chuck's "playboy" persona may be based on the assumption that this is how rich horny people are "supposed to" behave.

Even if their relationship hasn't progressed beyond the point of significant looks and hand-holding, it must be nice for Chuck to have a girl actually wanting to be around him rather than actively avoiding him or trying to hurt him. He may feel that he has nothing to prove.

I kind of hope this isn't a one-shotter, with the reset button pressed at the end of this episode. And I also hope that things work out -- I could see Chuck and Stacy affecting each other's personalities in some very good ways. Chuck needs to learn restraint, and Stacy to gain more confidence, and they could in these ways help each other. [

she's

the past.

Probably more dangerous ones than Chuck, who is basically all bark and no bite.

really

That's true, actually. He wants someone whom he can respect. That's the only way to explain his earlier crush on Daria (revealed in one of the books).

That's very true.

Yep.

In a way, I think she had a more successful relationship with Nathan than with Tom. She and Tom went on long after they should have broken up and never appeared to be having a good time after "Partner's Complaint". With Nathan, Jane had a lotta fun and broke up when it was clearly not going to work.

It would be nice if she found someone for a longer term, but that's not going to happen with her quick pick-up routine.

Actually, since "The Story of D", she's finally appearing at ease with him. For a while Daria was only communicating when Tom forced the issue. Lately she's been quite open with him.

I used to think she was innocent and clueless, but not after FLM. Remember her description to Tiffany of how Quinn and Sandi usually conduct a FC meeting: "You know, like Sandi used to. She'd say something like 'nail decals' and Quinn would say they're pass� and Sandi would ask if Quinn knew the difference between pass� and retro and Quinn would explain what she meant to say and we'd move on to the next topic. " She understands them better than they understand themselves. I don't think much escapes Stacy.

Not to mention the well-thought-out way she set Sandi up for that "Oh, Sandi, you're SO naive" line. :-)

As for Upchuck, I think she's basically ignoring his Hefnerisms and concentrating on him. I've always suspected Upchuck's a closet brain with some interesting hobbies. And Stacy seems quite fascinated with at least one of his hobbies (magic tricks).

M Man

MMan said:

Nathan made it more obvious by becoming a total jerk.

Jane wasn't hurt as much because she was never as deeply involved with Nathan as she was with Tom. Their relationship seems to have consisted mostly of dressing retro and hanging with Nathan's retro friends. Tom, she was really in love with.

That's one of the flaws with her impulsive behavior.

her

Quinn

understand

Oh, I don't think Stacy is _stupid_. I think she's _innocent_, which is different.

Oh, that was _great_ :)

Exactly.

She has noticed that Upchuck can be admirable, if you ignore the constant come-ons.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

I agree about Tom (definitely), and would probably agree about Nathan's being a relatively harmless weirdo, but what about Bobby Big-head and Evan?

I'm a girl, and I know I wouldn't like his come-ons, even if I hadn't seen the reactions of most of the other girls to him. As for Stacy, maybe a little positive attention goes a long way for her.

No, neither the experienced older woman nor the hot high-school senior would be likely to be impressed by Upchuck's come-ons.

Hmm -- are you suggesting Upchuck's growing up? Who would've believed it?

Stacy does seem to be innocent in that area, which is probably a bit of a blessing at this point.

Sounds like something that would actually help both parties -- Stacy learned something new and gained more self-confidence and independence, while Upchuck learned that he could pay attention to a girl as a * person *, and that someone could be interested in him for something totally unrelated to wealth, status, or sexuality -- two things that any guy should definitely learn.

I didn't expect to see it either, but you're right -- it would be very interesting to see this kind of thing continue, and both people could benefit from the interaction.

I actually thought that if any of the FC girls was more vulnerable to sexual predators, it would be Stacy. But it's true that Chuck isn't a major threat.

I figured his "mystery lady" in The Daria Diaries was Daria! You're right -- he doesn't seem to prefer the more easily exploitable girls. Maybe he sees Stacy as being more feisty now (I know I am), and he's starting to take an interest in her because of it.

You're right about Stacy being even feistier since FLM! And I'm really enjoying it!

Belle Book

Belle said:

Well, she didn't get really involved with either of them. Bobby was making out with her in a laundry closet -- I'd trust Jane's own common sense to keep things from going too far then -- Evan hung out with her for a while until he proved himself a jerk. Though I will agree that Jane would probably have done more stupid things if she hadn't met Daria when she did.

be

Yep.

Stacy has dated, but not a lot. Especially by FC standards. And I don't think she's ever had a serious boyfriend.

someone

Plus, he'd learn that relating to a girl as another human being can get him farther than doing his absurdly exaggerated playboy act. For one thing, it seems to be getting him Stacy as at least a friend.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

She probably would've -- she's impulsive enough to get herself in real trouble if she didn't have somebody looking out for her. As for Evan, perhaps she didn't get as involved with him as she did with Nathan (let alone with Tom), but she definitely was more involved with him than she was with Bobby Big-head, if my reading of the transcripts is correct (I still have to see those two episodes).

I'd probably agree. Incidentally, I'm not certain any members of the FC have ever had a serious boyfriend, other than Quinn's attempt at it in "One J At A Time". My guess is that other than Quinn's attempt, none of the other FC members have had a serious boyfriend.

I'd say that relating to a girl as another human being is far better than doing that playboy act of his! For one thing, girls are more likely to drop him like a hot potato if he does that exaggerated playboy act, whereas if he relates to a girl as another human being, he'd at least gain a friend, which he probably could use at this point.

Belle Book

M Man wrote:

I agree -- Jane definitely needs to find a better way to get a guy for the long haul.

Well, Tom's being a good-looking guy was one reason for Daria becoming attracted to him in the first place (of course, his good looks weren't the ONLY reason), so I'm not surprised she thought Tom was cute. However, it IS surprising that Daria admitted that. However, she's been dating Tom for quite a while, so she's probably comfortable enough to admit the truth.

Indeed -- the tyrant's dead! Long live the tyrant! I think her days were numbered in "Fat Like Me", but this might well be the death knell for Sandi's days as an autocrat.

I agree!

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 29 May 2001:

SPOILERS - p i c k e d - o u t - o f - a - s h i r t - p o c k e t [snippage]

As another male, I beg to differ. He came off better in last night's ep than he has previously, but in general he's been notably unsympathetic - from blackmailing Brittany in "The Lab Brat" (and forcing her to do his household chores!) to holding up the Homecoming parade with his 'Lovemobile' and then coming on to the policewomen! Even Daria, who has managed to muster up sympathy for such unlikely candidates as Kevin and Mr. O'Neill, has only once shown even a hint of sympathy for Upchuck, in "Jake of Hearts," and even then she insulted him.

He's undeniably clueless about what he would do if a girl actually responded to his schtick, but I wouldn't really call him shy - I think a genuinely shy person would have been smart enough to cool it in front of two policewomen carrying nightsticks.

Well, you could characterize Daria that way, but she hasn't exactly been flattered by Upchuck's attentions.

I agree; to show character development in Upchuck, while still keeping him Upchuck, was damned impressive.

Yup. It was impressive character development on Stacy's part, as well. Dang, I wish I could write like that!

Really. Makes me wonder if there isn't *some* hope for Sandi. (And to pull off the hat trick, they can make Kevin get a clue - if they do that plausibly, they can do *anything*!)

I agree 100%. I've never been able to sympathize too much with Quinn, but Sandi's mistreatment of Stacy has always been unforgiveable.

Yup. She had it coming, too. Still, though - if Stacy, Quinn, and even *Upchuck* can get a life, why not Sandi? (This message brought to you by the Hopeless Fans of Sandi Foundation.)

That's a good point. Mr. Ruttheimer has always included Daria and Jane in his galaxy of babes, to the point of referring to them as "two of my favorite luscious ladies" in "The Lawndale File." Anyone who comes on to Daria and Jane isn't looking for pushovers.

Oh, yeah. I can't remember the last time I was this involved with the unfolding plot of a TV show.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Well, no, that wasn't something to sympathize with. But that's the only time Upchuck has come across as evil. (Though Brit kinda asks for it with her let's-make-Kevin-jealous routine every time the two of them have a falling-out.)

Well, of course she did. He means well, but he's horribly annoying.

I don't know that shy=smart generally. Of course it was a dumb thing to do.

Covering up shyness by being, on the surface, wildly non-shy is a common-enough phenomenon. Lots of peformers and politicians fit the bill.

It's easy to sympathize because lots of guys are shy, especially at his age, and most just clam up and do little or nothing. At least Upchuck's in there trying, even if he's persistently going about it the wrong way.

He was (eventually) acting normal because Stacy just kept ignoring his playboy act and asking about his magic act. She was genuinely curious about it.

Upchuck's reply was that he couldn't tell her how he did his tricks - magicians have a code of honor not to reveal their secrets. Think about the effect of that.

First, Upchuck impresses Stacy with his integrity. He may be an annoying come-on artist, but he has standards. And he probably impressed HIMSELF. Here's a chance to impress a "lucious lady", and he holds back his trump card because he can't betray his craft.

Obvious solution: bring Stacy into the magician's circle where she has to learn some of the tricks.

Sandi just has to get the message that no-one really fears her anymore. She can't do what she used to do. If she has a nice side, it's time to bring it on out.

The other FC girls COULD have just dumped her in "Fat Like Me", but they took her back as president. But in their last meeting in that episode, they all three stood up to her when she tried to roll over them. And when she tried to humiliate Quinn in "Lucky Strike".

Stacy certainly set her up for that "you're so naive" line in LITPL, but it never would have worked if Sandi hadn't done the predictable thing and crowed loudly over Stacy's (apparent) humiliation.

They're giving her every chance in the world. Apparently they (and you) like something about her. Personally I'd just have nothing to do with her.

Charter members of the Feisty Hall of Fame. :-)

M Man
________

Quinn: Stacy hardly didn't-eat anything at lunch today. Did that make sense?

Tiffany: *I* got it.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 30 May 2001: w r e t c h e d - s t u b b o r n - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Hey, at least she waits until they *do* have a falling-out. Kevin's not so particular. "Babe! I was adjusting her nose-ring!"

Sure. I didn't mean to say that it's impossible to sympathize with Upchuck - i just don't find it easy. (Two words I never, ever want to hear from Mr. Ruttheimer again: "bodily fluids." Bleeeurgh!)

I guess I wasn't so much thinking shy=smart as shy=cautious, and he definitely threw caution to the winds in that scene.

You have a point; he's obviously smarter than he appears to be at first glance, and he's talented enough to pull off sleight-of-hand. (Jeez, here I am finding good things to say about Upchuck! Must be post-hypnotic suggestions by Anne Bernstein.)

[snippage]

I'd love to know which one of them came up with the idea to have Stacy fake a breakdown. Brilliant!

I think it's time for her to get out of the Fashion Club rut completely, but I'm not that hopeful. On the other hand, teens do rebel against their parents, and if anyone ever needed rebelling against, it's Linda Griffin.

Yep. And Stacy was *right* - Sandi is naive; she thinks of herself as sophisticated, but she ain't. She instinctively mistrusts Quinn, but it never occurred to her that Stacy might trick her, just as it never occurred to her that Stacy and Tiffany would have both known perfectly well that Daria was Quinn's sister. (All the FCers except Stacy think of themselves as more sophisticated than they are, come to think of it. I loved Quinn's reaction to Upchuck's trick - "Who cares if he can fix a ten? It's not like it was a fifty!")

Quinn's the only one who's ever shown genuine affection for Sandi, and only in one episode. Stacy puts up with Sandi because she likes being part of the Fashion Club, but that looks like it's changing; Tiffany puts up with Sandi because of inertia, so far as I can tell. Methinks it's time for Sandi to find a new line of work.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

He was! I was there! :-)

I wonder if they had a falling-out when Brit gave the lonely French exchange student an "American Goodbye". :-)

I'm with you on that. Double bleeeurgh!

You will tithe your earnings to M Man. You will tithe your earnings to M Man. You will tithe your earnings to M Man.

Probably that's a standard magic act Upchuck got out of a book. Or saw another magician perform.

Linda Griffin and the late "Mad Dog" Morgendorffer.

I think Tiffany would be lost without someone to follow around.

M Man
___________

Stacy: Oh, Sandi, you're SO naive!

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

Speaking of Brittany, did you notice that she said she was thinking of going out with some guy (I forgot his name) in LITPL, then said, "Eep!"

However, you're right -- she doesn't seem to come on to other guys until * after * she has a falling-out with Kevin. Kevin seems to come on to other girls while dating Brittany -- I remember he was touching the Football Queen during the Homecoming Parade, which got Brittany really jealous! And I don't think he did it to make her jealous either -- I just think he's clueless as to the effect his actions have on Brittany.

No, it definitely isn't easy. However, Anne Bernstein made it look easier in this episode.

You're right about that. Any cautious guy would know better than to flirt with a policewoman, let alone two.

:) No, more likely it's the skill with which she wrote the episode.

It sure was brilliant! And it doesn't really matter to me which one of them came up with the idea -- it really worked!

I only saw Linda in "Daria's Dance Party", but I agree -- Sandi should rebel against Linda, of all people.

Yes, Stacy seems to be the only one to have some degree of self-awareness. Again, I think the newfound backbone's really bringing this quality out in Stacy.

Until FLM, I think Stacy put up with Sandi because she had no backbone. However, things changed after FLM. And I agree -- it's time for Stacy to find a new line of work. Her old line of being the Fashion Club autocrat is definitely about to go down the tubes.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

It's not just that he flirted with a policewoman. Under social circumstances, she might not mind.

It's that he tried to flirt with two policewomen _who were ordering him to move his vehicle_. By doing that, he directly challenged their status as professionals.

"Belle Book" wrote in message news:[email]...

so

going

Terry (Theodore) Wozniak is the quarterback for the Oakwood Taproots.

I read it somewhere on the old Season 4 Daria website.

He was, indecently, a part of Kevin's Fantasy Football team.

Does Brittany love those quarterbacks or what? First Sam Stack (see Lab Brat) at Oakwood then Terry.

To paraphrase the words of an old Tupac Shakur song "She gets around"

Firah

Firah wrote:

I'm beginning to think Oakwood quarterbacks are her "back-up" dates if she breaks up with Kevin. I remember she went out with Sam Stack just because she broke up with Kevin.

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 30 May 2001:

w r e t c h e d - s t u b b o r n - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

That was one of my favorite incidental moments in the episode - she was worried that Upchuck could read her mind! Methinks she was imagining more than just going out with the other boy - however, she also knows the difference between imagining something and actually doing it. It's anybody's guess whether Kevin does.

Another great moment - "He touched her butt!" Brittany gesturing and the other cheerleaders copying her gestures. (Also note that the Football Queen specifically asked Kevin to stop, and pointed out that Brittany was her friend. Kevin is one of those people who needs to be whacked upside the head with a clue-by-four.)

True. I'm in awe, frankly.

I'm just curious about whether or not Stacy came up with the idea because of what it would mean about Stacy's self-awareness, but I agree - either way, it was pure genius.

Linda also appears in "Fair Enough" and "Gifted," acting every bit as hateful. Sandi's father also appears in "Fair Enough." I'd say he shares some of the blame - there's at least a suggestion that he just gave up and let Linda do whatever she wanted (and he didn't provide much of a role model for Sandi's brothers!).

Definitely. In FLM we also saw how hard Stacy was willing to work to keep the Fashion Club going; I think she puts up with Sandi now for the Club's sake - the intimidation factor is gone.

I'll be *very* interested to see where they go with this, especially given that there's another movie coming up.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Corvus Marinus said:

I think that Kevin was under the delusion that his status on the float translated into "ooh, I can do [address]"

If Stacy continues to at least be Chuck's friend, the point may come where she has to choose between Chuck and the FC. Now _that_ would be interesting to see.

A true Hobson's choice, if ever there was one...

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...

she

see.

On

Jeff Henkels said:

Oh, I don't know ... if Chuck continues treating her with affection and respect, she'd be a heck of a lot better off hanging out with him than with the FC. Chuck, after all, is _smart_, and likes her.

Delusion?

He *can* do anything, apparently. Brit doesn't stay mad for long.

I wonder if Kevvy's really a *little* smarter than he lets on. At least about girls.

M Man

MMan said:

Not really. He's building up resentment in Brittany that manifests largely as her complete lack of interest in being his girlfriend post high school. She's not necessarily bluffing when she says she won't marry him, but will instead look for an exotic older man. Note that she _was_ interested in that not very exotic older used car dealer.

She seemed rather clueless about Wally, even to the end of the episode. I don't think she ever quite understood he was trying to hit on her.

As for Kevin being a little smarter than he seems, this is what I meant: when he got touchy-feely with Angie on the float in ILAP, he knew full well that Brittany could see what was going on. Could it be he was deliberately trying to make her jealous? - a tactic she uses on him all the time. And that he has a pretty good idea of how far he can push her?

As for life after high school, I think both of them think they're going to find somebody better after they graduate. I think they're both wrong (though Brittany may very well find somebody RICHER). They may break up and still *eventually* end up together.

M Man

MMan said:

find

Well heck, they break up and get back together all the time!

Hmmm. So you think you've noticed a pattern? :-)

Yeah. Even if they get married, they'll probably go through separations, divorce threats, move-outs, all followed by reconciliations.

<Sigh>

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 01 Jun 2001:

w r e t c h e d - s t u b b o r n - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

I'll defend Sandi - I'll acknowledge that Anne D. Bernstein made *Upchuck* seem human - but Kevin Thompson being smarter than he lets on? I mean, admittedly he couldn't possibly be *dumber* than he lets on, but still. My take on it is that he's been unwittingly relying on the fact that Brittany genuinely cares about him. For her part, in addition to caring about him, Brittany uses him as an endless source of expensive presents - if he didn't screw up so much, he wouldn't have to buy her so much stuff.

(It just occurred to me that although the Taylors are obviously wealthy, Brittany's father is a stingy bastard - he dipped into Brian's college fund to buy Brittany a "near-crystal" present, and I doubt that he paid very much to hire the band, either. Brittany's probably using Kevin to get the stuff she'd like to be able to buy for herself.)

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

I don't think he knows much about the difference between imagining something and actually doing it.

We all know he's a real dummy.

So am I!

Well, it's not impossible Stacy came up with the idea -- after all, Stacy showed quite a bit of awareness of Sandi and Quinn's arguing in "Fat Like Me".

Unfortunately, I have yet to see those episodes!

You're probably right, especially after LITPL.

So will I!

Belle Book

Oops. I meant it's time for Sandi to find a new line of work.

Belle Book

wrote:

Well, it was a little strange at first, but then gradually it just went out of control. Jane's pretty good looking when she dresses up. I hope they give her another chance to do it this season.

Agreed. At the end for me Nathan came off as a tad psychotic with that zoot suit of his. Poor Jane. Even though the breakup was inevitable (Nathan was too much of a character to actually provide moral support), I really wanted her to experience some happiness. Maybe they'll give her another chance. Or lay the groundwork for something we can speculate upon until the end of time.

She's an artist. What are you gonna do?

Hey, I'm glad Upchuck finally got something to do and came out on top in the end for once.

Great Anne Bernstein episode, by the way. I'm gonna miss her.

Jeff M.

"JMorris830" wrote in message news:[email]...

fell

the

Yeah, I kept waiting for Upchuck to push Stacy too far and end up humiliated. I was both surprised and impressed when that didn't happen ... instead Upchuck and Stacy both get an unexpected minute of public triumph.

But I suppose I've always been a closet supporter of Upchuck. He reminds me too much of me at that age for me to just write him off.

It's interesting that Upchuck seems to be the only student that DiMartino actually likes.

Jeff Morris wrote:

I agree -- I'd like her to have at least the possibility for some happiness on her part.

This was an Anne Bernstein episode?! I didn't know that! She did a great episode, I'd agree on that!

Belle Book

"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...

My mind has been BLOWN AWAY right now!

I'm still trying to scrape what's left of my medulla oblongota off the ceiling. Most of my brains are back in my skull case so I can write this post.

This had to be the most BIZARRE episode of Daria I have EVER seen. Lord knows they tried with 'Legends Of The Mall' and 'Murder She Snored' but this.....

WHEW!

You were right, this was like a crazy off-canon fanfic. Except it's a real episode.

those

The changes of wardrobe by Jane in this episode alone has my head spinning.

The Alter Ego's almost don't compare anymore...

fell out

Stop it. I'm going pass out now...

Sandi is definately coming out of her shell...

ever.

sense?

JEALOUS,

Oh yes it was...I need a drink...NOW!

Firah

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 28 May 2001: S P O I L E R - S P A C E , - M Y - M A N !

She looked great, IMO. Jane may be the one and only animated character who can actually look good in a snood. In true retro mode, I felt like one of Tex Avery's animated wolves...

I don't know...that's too wild even for most fanfic. (The Stacy-Quinn 'shippers are going to go through the roof!)

That was perfect. Tho' I may be a fan of Sandi, she completely deserved that, and Stacy deserved her triumph. She looked awfully cute in the 'sparkly' outfit, too. Upchuck, on the other hand, proved that it is possible for a magician to be smarmier than David Copperfield (or Coppertone). There's a similar character on the BBC series 'Jonathan Creek' - an unctuous sex-crazed magician named Adam Klaus - and I can't help but wonder if Anne Bernstein might have drawn a little inspiration from that.

If the writers actually manage to redeem Upchuck, I will fall down and worship at their feet. After this episode, I wouldn't put it past them.

Yep! Good stories, good continuity (even in small details like Mr. DeMartino acting as Upchuck's shill - see "That Was Then, This Is Dumb"), and excellent jokes (see my .sig). I loved it!

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

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Some comments:

(a) This was one of those eps where Daria and Tom have little to do except comment on the action. Although I'm a huge fan of the title character, I have to say that her put-down of the 1950's was your typical liberal-intellectual cliche. There was more to that underestimated decade than suburban sprawl and "keeping up with the joneses." That's a topic for another thread, however.

(b) It was fun to watch Jane experiment with different clothing styles. She can look very very GOOD in a nice dress. I wish Daria would experiment a little more with her clothes. Does she have 15 identical green jackets in her closet, and 20 identical red pleated skirts in her dresser?

(c) Everybody's analyzing the Stacy-Upchuck connection. Here's my take. Stacy first.

Stacy's mental horizons are expanding. She was initially drawn to Chuck by curiosity about his magic tricks. It's not clear whether she and Chuck actually dated, but we can infer that some very significant interaction happened offstage. At the very least, Stacy asked Chuck how he did his stunts, he showed her a few, and then he asked her if she would be his "lovely assistant" for a benefit magic show he's planning. She said yes. That is all that HAD to have happened between them. She may have dated him a few times (which is what i suspect) or even become his girl-friend, but we don't know for sure. At the very least, Stacy enjoys performing. This is a part of the "emergence from the shell" process. So both her social skills and mental horizons are expanding.

Upchuck's over-the-top innuendo-laden come-ons to the girls at the school have always struck me as extremely annoying. I had no trouble, however, recognizing him as inwardly shy and insecure. His magic performances and sports announcing gigs (in Fizz Ed) are attempts to overcome this. This is something he shares with Stacy, and Stacy recognizes it. I suspect Stacy doesn't take his patter seriously. It probably amuses her.

A long-term relationship between Stacy and Upchuck? I kind of doubt it, but their surprising alliance is less illogical than it first appeared. Not illogical at all, in fact.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross wrote in message news:9f1aoq$b6r$[email]...

She

her

What about Kevin? He must really smell.

Spoiler Space For #509, #506, #411, #205
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     I agree.  Reasonable people would not try to argue the merits of
segregation, but the other three things Daria castigated during her ride in
Nathan's car - loyalty oaths, dress codes, and the Cold War - are all subjects
open for debate.  As a conservative, I was disappointed that she demonstrated
opposition to them.
     Eichler has been fairly careful to avoid giving Daria a political ideology
prior to this season.  I can only recall two episodes  before Season 5 that may
have hinted at one.  In "That Was Then, This Is Dumb", Daria seemed to indicate
support for both the feminist and civil rights movement during her conversation
with Trent at the flea market.  And in "Groped By An Angel", she seemed to give
a tacit endorsement of hedonism, and, by implication, a rejection of
traditional religion.  ( Perhaps not a purely political stance, but the social
/ religious / political sometimes overlap just a bit).
     Of course, during the current season, Daria intimated support for gay
rights during the now famous chastisement of Jeffy in "Lucky Strike".
     Shifting gears, I thought "Life In The Past Lane" was a fine episode.
Although Nathan's obsession with his wardrobe was almost neurotic in nature, I
liked his respect for time honored traditions and the past in general.  He and
Jane made for a cute couple, although mainly from an aesthetic angle.
     I never thought Charles was safely out of the box during Stacey's
histrionics, but, then again, I didn't believe I would ever see a Rowe /
Ruttheimer connection.  The ability to surprise the viewer is one sign of
quality drama.
     61 episodes down, 4 to go.  The amount of enjoyment I've gotten out of
this damn cartoon is immeasurable.

"Al52228" wrote in message news:[email]...

in

subjects

demonstrated

I don't think there's much room to argue that the Cold War was a Good Thing ... reasonable people can disagree about whose fault it was, but not that it basically sucked. I also think that loyalty oaths ... in the 50s context that Daria is talking about ... were probably even more of a fundamental undermining of the constitution than was segregation ... but let's not go there. Dress codes? Eh, she was trying to get Nathan's goat.

ideology

that may

indicate

conversation

give

social

Daria is a critical non-conformist. She automatically reacts against all ideologies equally. If you had to categorize her, I think the (limited) data we have now puts her somewhere between a Goldwater Republican and a Libertarian. Her views on economics and foreign policy seem to tilt definitely to the cautious right. She also doesn't seem to have much time for the concept of social entitlement (which is the central tenet of Liberalism). Her main belief seems to be something like "people shouldn't tell other people how to act without a damn good reason" (which is also the foundation of libertarianism, although I doubt she has much time for much of the economic side of that movement) Thus her support of feminism and civil rights (both within the specific context of the '60s, when both groups were much more overtly oppressed), her distaste for organized religion, and her repudiation of homophobia - she doesn't like society telling people what they have to be or what they can't be.

To bring it down to brass tacks, if she was of voting age last year, she would have liked Clinton, but abhored his ethical lapses, although she'd be even more disgusted with the impeachment. For the election, she would have considered going independent, but actually registered Republican. She would have supported McCain in the primaries, but would have voted for Gore over Bush in the general election.

There's a chance that Daria is a libertarian or an anarchist instead of a "liberal" in the sense usually used in the USA. It's also possible she doesn't have a well-worked out political standpoint, beyond a few specific positions.

I'm not a conservative but I see the 50's as far more than a decade of sterile conformity. That is, as I said, a subject for another thread.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross wrote in message news:9f3skc$jnt$[email]...

doesn't

positions.

I can't really see Daria as an Anarchist somehow.

Maybe not. Daria doesn't have much faith in human nature. Fortunately, that extends to government too, or she'd be some sort of fascist.

It's just a bit too easy to speculate what Daria's politics are. We just don't know enough. I also stand by my earlier theory that sometimes she says things just to bust people's chops.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross wrote in message news:9f5848$i30$[email]...

wrote:

[email]

a

that

don't

things

She's probably a closest Left winger.

[email] (Steve Cross) wrote in message news:...

I don't think that Daria has any politics per se. She doesn't seem to care much about things not directly interfering with her way of life, which can turn around to hurt her in the future. Daria considers herself above such items, but her ego deeply dictates her to protect everything having to do with said way of life. For example, while watching a few old episodes recently I was reminded how possesive she is of Jane, and her disregard to Jane's feelings for other people. I specifically refer to every single episode when Jane tries to get involved in a relationship. I don't know what to make of it: jealousy or sheer possesiveness? This is one of her weak points, and much to the credit of the writers, it has stayed more or less consistent throughout the entire run of the show.

Anarchist? I can't see Daria becoming an anarchist. What I can picture her, though, is opening up to the world at one point and dropping the "presumed idiot" way of perceiving people surrounding her.

Speaking of idiots and opening up to them, this just crossed my mind: She WILL inevitably end up surrounded by true morons, as the tapes will probably be stored among timeless masterpieces such as The Real World, Road Rules, Spring Break, etc. in the non-discriminating archive room at MTV. Que ironico, as Jane would put it. Oh, wait. Ironico is not a word. Never mind, then.

MW

Actually, by the standards of PC-ness, her chastisement of Jeffy was incredibly mild. In real life, he'd probably be expelled for writing ways to keep Mercutio out of the locker room.

I'd LIKE to like him for that, but I wonder how genuine his respect for time-honored traditions was. He seriously overdid it with the wardrobe.

It would be nice to think he wasn't *entirely* a poser.

I liked his car, though. Chrome and tailfins - that's a CAR!

Am I the only one who much prefers Jane's usual clothes? I thought most of her outfits were bizarre and historically exaggerated.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 30 May 2001:

C u s t o m - F i t - S p o i l e r - S p a c e !

I have to admit that I thought it was cool that he had a custom-fitted hat; if I were sufficiently solvent to consider it, I'd love to have custom tailored clothes. I also like old-fashioned stationery supplies, which I think is the first thing I can honestly say I have in common with Jane.

Well, I guess you could say that, but it's a little bit like complaining that real strippers of the '40s didn't dress like Barbara Stanwyck in "Ball of Fire." I have no problem with Jane's usual clothes, but it was a heck of a lot of fun watching her play dress-up. (It's also fun to get a look at her other ear every once in a while...)

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Fountain pens are cool, but...

<Jake>

Carbon paper. EWWWWW!

<Jake>

About Nathan's clothes - weren't guys who wore zoot suits pretty much posers even in their own era?

Betcha thought she was like Van Gogh and had chopped one off .....

:-)

M Man

MMan37x wrote in message news:[email]...

hat;

posers

Malcom X was a major Zoot wearer.

Mark Whickman said:

In his criminal days.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message news:[email]...

Think beforehand. Before he got really bad.

I never heard of a pre-schooler wearing a zoot suit.

M Man

MMan37x wrote in message news:[email]...

Its been ages since I read about him, but it was earlier on (before he became a Mr X)

Mark Whickman said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "beforehand." Malcolm Little became a petty thief and burglar in his late teens / early twenties, largely because his original ambitions (for a higher eduction and a professional career) were thwarted by a then very racist educational system. He was _never_ a "really bad" criminal -- he used violence only in self defense against other criminals, as far as I know -- and when he joined the Nation of Islam (and became "Malcolm X"), he renounced crime entirely.

Before he was a petty criminal, he was a schoolkid.

The zoot suit was "youth rebellion" symbol in the 40's rather like the buckskin jackets of the 60's. It rapidly became a gang uniform in some parts of the country. During WW2 zoot suit wearers were accused of being draft dodgers. Hispanic zoot suit wearers were beat up on the streets of LA during that period also.

Steve Cross

MMan said:

Yes.

It was basically the look of people who were trying to look "with it." The way Nathan was dressed when he first met Jane, or when they went to the drive-in, was more normal for the era.

Of course, it's no worse than the way that Trent tries to look "with it," which is why the scene with Nathan and Trent was so amusing.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 01 Jun 2001:

C u s t o m - F i t - S p o i l e r - S p a c e !

Aw, I like carbon paper! Even if it is nasty to work with. I fondly remember the 'Saturday Night Live' parody commercial for carbon paper - Victoria Jackson desperately needs to make five copies of a document, but the copier's broken, the back-up copier's in use, the fax machine isn't fast enough...she's at the end of her tether when a sheet of carbon paper floats down from heaven (accompanied by a celestial choir) - cracks me up.

Seriously, though, one of the reasons I like Postal Money Orders is because of the carbon copies.

Guys like Nathan would have been; IIRC, the Zoot Suit was originally worn by the Pachucos in and around Los Angeles in the 1940s. There's a very cool web site at http://www.ethnomusic.ucla.edu/estudent/csharp/zootriot.html that includes photographs of the original Zoot Suiters and good links as well. Nathan looked pretty goofy in his, but some of the guys in those pictures look *very* slick (see the modern Zoot Suiters on the last page, especially.) The same web site also discusses the retro fad and "the infamous Gap commercial," as the author puts it.

I think her other ear was first revealed in "See Jane Run," which was before she was going out with Tom - I can't think of anyone else she would have sent it to. ^_^

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

In article , MMan37x wrote:

Most of them did little for me, I agree, though ironically I thought the final get-up (which she gets rejected for!) was really hot.

In article , [email] says...

You are way lucky I'm not contributing to this thread.

"Lance Flashcoil" wrote in message news:[email]...

in

subjects

demonstrated

DARIA!??

Making fun of conservative views??!!

How could she!!

<Tsk>...oh please...

Daria is going to make fun of ANYONE who try to take themselves to seriously.

That's why we like her. That's why we watch her.

That 'cynical thing' you understand...

Didn't Eichler and Co spend an entire episode ragging on the pretentious naivet� of the 60's in 'That Was Then, This Is Dumb'?

I did not see anyone stand up for that decade, except Trent.

And he's supposed to be the apathetic, slacker, cynic, 90's loser.

<NOTE: Anne D Bernstein wrote that episode too!>

All of a sudden, Daria starts pointing out the problem with Nathan's storybook view of Post War America and now she's a dirty liberal leftist?

Puuhleeze! I've noticed that conservatives, and their sympathizers, sure get their boxers in a bunch when someone dares to point out the darker side of their ideology.

Lighten up people!

There are negatives in ANY ideology.

Conservative, liberal or otherwise.

And Daria has been there to point them out to us. Just to let us know that no one is perfect and we have a long way to go before we get there.

I've said it before and I'll say it again "God, I'm going to miss this show when it's gone!!"

Firah

Firah said:

Agreed. She's skewered liberals often enough.

I'm a conservative, and I agree with you. Nathan was over-idealizing the 40's and 50's, some of it in ways that Daria wasn't even catching.

I wrote:

Firah replied:

In no place did I refer to Daria as a "dirty liberal leftist", Firah. All I did was express moderate disappointment that a character I truly admire voiced views contrary to my own on a couple of political issues. No big deal.

"Al52228" wrote in message news:[email]...

I

voiced

I understand.

I'm just saying that Daria's mission has been to kill as many sacred cows as she can.

Usually these said cows end up as pizza toppings at Jane and Daria's favorite restaurant Pizza King.

:)

Yes Daria has run roughshod on a few of my views as well. However, I realize that's what she's supposed to.

Once again, that 'cynical thing' you understand....

Firah

Lance Flashcoil wrote in :

And why would that be ?

Phill.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Steve Cross) did write in news:9f1aoq$b6r$[email], on the date of 29 May 2001: w r e t c h e d - s t u b b o r n - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

That was something I noticed, as well; Daria really was behaving a bit like "the P.C. police" in that scene. I think she went for the easy putdown because she disliked Nathan so much; she usually acts like that around boys that Jane likes - Tom had to go out of his way in "Jane's Addition" to get past her instinctive dislike for him.

I think there's actually been a joke to that effect in several fanfics. She did change her look in "Road Worrier" - maybe she needs to go to more alternative rock festivals...

I find the most intriguing part of the interaction is that Stacy used her own image as part of the trick - people think of her as a panicky crybaby, so who would guess she was faking? Heck, I was (briefly) fooled.

Don't forget his DJ act in "Daria Dance Party" - he volunteered for that.

After rewatching the episode it seems more and more logical, in fact - Stacy and Upchuck have both been taken for granted by virtually everyone. Having them collaborate on a magic trick was ingenious - they could employ misdirection just by doing exactly what everyone expected them to do.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Corvus Marinus said:

1. Daria knows that Jane basically just ran into him at random on the street. Daria definitely thinks that is a wrong thing to do.

2. Daria tends to be jealous of anything or anyone which takes Jane's attention away from her. This is Daria's immature and selfish side, she's possessive of Jane.

• Daria could probably also tell that Nathan was a poser.

For a moment, I thought that they were actually gonna kill Chuck off.

In article , [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Whatever her "politics" may be---liberal, libertarian, anarchist---Daria hates posers and phonies, and that's probably her main objection to Nathan. I sometimes think, too, that Daria sometimes says things just to be contrary. The shallow view of the 50's she expressed to Nathan may not be her real view, just something to yank his chain. It succeeded.

The thought crossed my mind too, but i couldn't believe Eichler & Co would simply snuff a character with so much comic potential.

Steve Cross

Actually, there was a dead giveaway that Upchuck was in no danger .....

. . . . . . . . . If he was, would Ms. Barch be trying to save him?

:-)

M Man

"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...

her

crybaby,

Ooooooooo. MMan that made TOO much sense!

Firah

M Man wrote:

Very good point, M Man. I never thought of it at the time. I don't know if Ms. Barch thought he was seriously in trouble or if she didn't -- probably not. But yeah -- if he was really in trouble, Bernstein wouldn't have had Ms. Barch attempt to save him.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

I dunno -- Ms. Barch is angry at men, that doesn't mean she'd cheerfully let one of her students _die_.

This was UPCHUCK!

Actually, I figured Ms Barch was part of the act, like Ms Li and Mr DeMartino. Janet had a faint smile, rather than a surprised look, when Chuck showed up at the back of the auditorium.

M Man

M Man wrote:

Hmm. I never thought of that one. I'll have to look at that part more closely next time. I didn't think that Ms. Li was part of the act, either, though I'm not surprised that Mr. DeMartino might've been part of the act as well.

Belle Book

We know DeMartino was part of Upchuck's card trick in the first scene - and got a bit of cash out of it.

I was really half-joking about Barch when I got this sub-thread started. I thought the trail of periods leading to the line about Ms Barch served as an announcement "here comes the punchline!", so I didn't think a :-) was necessary.

Of course, Ms. Li would be going ballistic if she really thought Upchuck was dying. Remember this exchange from "Daria!"?

Jamie: Are we all going to die?

Ms Li: Not on school property!!

P.S. - I saw your latest fanfic. The ending needs a little work ....

:-)

Got me interested, though. And I don't usually like crossovers.

M Man

M Man wrote:

I know -- that's why the idea didn't surprise me at all.

Well, the ending is just the beginning of the next part of the fanfic, which is the first "episode" of Teen Mole. Once you see the other eight contestants (and Tom) you can guess which of Daria's fellow contestants is the Mole. And I'm glad you got interested in my fanfic.

Belle Book

On 04 Jun 2001 00:37:10 GMT, [email] (MMan37x) wrote:

No, actually, all he got was his own cash back. Think about it: DeMartino gave him a ten, and O'Neill gave him a ten. When the trick was over, Upchuck handed DeMartino a single bill... presumably, his own ten. So, Upchuck made ten dollars, while DeMartino walked away dead even. Not the most profitable of arrangements, unless DeMartino considered it profitable to part a fool and his money. :-)

Martin
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My main point was that DeMartino was part of the act. I admit I didn't follow the money *too* closely.

M Man

Martin Pollard said:

He probably did. In particular, he was probably tickled pink to see Kevin and Brittany being made fools of in public.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid Martin J. Pollard did write in news:06DS6.48$[email], on the date of 03 Jun 2001:

W r e t c h e d - S t u b b o r n - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Possibly; but it looked to me as though Upchuck had more than two bills; they may have been running the scam on and off during the day - it wasn't clear whether he gave DeMartino a ten or a larger denomination. (Also, a good shill doesn't bet with his own money; DeMartino might have gotten the ten from Upchuck in the first place.) It might also have been an oversight on the animators' part, since Anthony was clearly expecting to make money out of the deal ("Gimme my cut!")

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

In "Road Worrier", didn't we see in her closet? I think she has ONE extra skirt and jacket outfit plus her jeans and t-shirt.

M Man

_________

Jane: Daria! I'm wearing a snood!

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

True, and she's still insecure where Jane's concerned because Jane's her only girl friend. However, Jane's habit of picking up guys she barely knows isn't Daria's style, and she may have also thought Jane was getting herself in possible trouble -- certainly Jane has a track record of hooking up with jerks (Tom being the biggest exception).

Also, most cartoons have characters dress in the same kinds of clothes for each episode.

Yikes! I wanted to add some more. Here's the rest of what I had in mind:

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

<snip>

So was I! I actually believed Upchuck was in major trouble. When I realized it was an act, I was stunned at first, then when I recovered, I was delighted! I think Stacy may have found a new career -- as an entertainer of some kind!

I think Stacy probably did date Upchuck a couple of times, though I don't think she's his girlfriend at this point.

Yes, and misdirection is what stage magicians are supposed to use. They can't let the public know their secrets.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

And possibly with Chuck.

Hard to say if these would be "dates" by FC standards, especially if what they mostly did was practice their act, but then FC standards are kind of clueless anyway.

What's a "date" by FC standards? Remember this Quinn-ism from "Partner's Complaint"?

Quinn: Um, that's sweet of you, Russell, but we just went out two weeks ago, so I really can't go out with you again for another three weeks. Well, I consider a hospital visit a date. Sorry. Anyway, good luck with the new kidney and all. Bye.

:-)

M Man

MMan said:

Thats' a good point. On the other hand, remember that Quinn's whole dating strategy is based on avoiding letting any guy get emotionally close to her.

Unlike the rest of the FC? :-)

It's curious that, whether Stacy's actually been dating Upchuck or not, the FC hadn't figured out something was going on. That magic show must have taken a lot of practice, so the two of them must have been spending a lot of time together.

M Man

M Man wrote:

Actually, it's not surprising that Tiffany didn't figure out something was going on -- she's really oblivious, as we all know.

As for Sandi and Quinn, they probably consider Upchuck a persona non grata, and that might explain their ignoring the signs. Also, Stacy may have explained her prolonged spending time with Upchuck as something other than what it really was.

Belle Book

Yeah, she has enough trouble keeping up with the goings-on in both her pocket mirror and her makeup mirror. :-)

But isn't spending time with Upchuck for *any* reason a big no-no in the FC rulebook? We don't really know, after all, that Stacy and Chuck did anything more than practice for the magic show, though there's plenty of room to speculate otherwise.

Maybe this is another manifestation of the quality Stacy showed in obtaining the charicatures in "Art Burn". She's a bit sneaky. Maybe she covered her tracks well.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 31 May 2001:

w r e t c h e d - s t u b b o r n - S P O I L E R - S P A C E [snippage]

Another possibility was suggested in the scene where Sandi asks whether they just saw Stacy with Upchuck; Quinn and Tiffany both suggest that maybe it was that girl that looks like Stacy. Maybe Stacy was covering her tracks by claiming that there was another girl who looked like her - the other FCers are just clueless enough to buy it.

(It might also be that Quinn and Tiffany were deliberately covering for Stacy, but they both seemed pretty stunned when she came out on stage...)

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

In article , [email] (Corvus Marinus) wrote:

They reserved a seat for Stacy. I didn't tape the ep, but wasn't the seating order (left to right) Tiffany, Quinn, empty seat, Sandi? Anyway, I'm sure one of those four seats was empty.

Steve Cross

MMan said:

That's a good point. Maybe the FC can't grasp the idea of Sandi doing something so disgusting (from their viewpoint) as actually having romantic feelings for Chuck. After all, Stacy _used_ to be the most carefully conformist of all of them.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in news:[email], on the date of 31 May 2001:

w r e t c h e d - s t u b b o r n - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

And I bet Sandi's going to be the most surprised of all when she finds out... ^_^

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

I think he meant "Stacy". On the other hand, by her standards, Sandi seemed remarkably tolerant of Upchuck in the scene where he did the trick with the 10-dollar bill. Hmmm, come to think of it ...

About that WNBA-style draft in OJAAT: Sandi did say they were going to pick *all* the boys at Lawndale High. Who DID get Upchuck?

M Man

In article , Steve Cross wrote:

Actually, there was an early episode in which she opens her closet door to reveal a wardrobe entirely consisting one one green jacket and one pleated skirt -- identical to the ones she was wearing at the time! I didn't "believe" it (plainly she later shows up wearing different clothes on occasions, or at least one a black t-shirt and jeans) but it was a very funny visual joke.