Some have the idea that this was contrived and predictable. I didn't predict the kiss at all.
Besides, the same plot/storyline happened to me, my friend and her boyfriend two summers ago. Except I kissed her boyfriend prior to them being a couple. They were just friends, apparently. Anyway, I love the Daria writers. Their writing actually portrays real life situations like this.
It's no so superficial and predictable.
Anyone else love the fact that they didn't make her first kiss from Trent?
Now that would have been predictable and anti-climatic.
I suspected that it might happen. In some ways I was "afraid" of it, because it was obvious to me that Tom kissing Daria at that point was _not_ going to be a happy thing in any sense other than the immediately pleasurable for all three ... or maybe four ... people trapped in this romantic rivalry.
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...
Trent?
I don't know if that was her "first kiss" ever (just that we're shown possibly). I don't remember her saying something to the effect that it was her first kiss.
She had rhetorically asked Jane, just minutes earlier, if Jane could possibly imagine her (Daria) ever "making out" with anyone, ever. The implication is clear that this has never happened before, and is supposed to be unthinkable.
Although Daria, in this episode, is so breathtakingly honest with Jane as to say "I kissed your boyfriend" with not hemming or hawing, she is not so honest with herself and, in consequence, with Tom:
Listen to the conversation with Tom leading up to the first kiss. When Tom tells her that he wants to talk, not about Jane, but about "their situation", Daria says she doesn't know what he means. But then, when Tom says he and Jane have gotten bored with each other, Daria asks Tom if he would still be bored with Jane even if she (Daria) weren't around. So clearly Daria DOES know what he meant.
Daria then denies being "interested" in Tom, although Tom has not (then or ever) asked her if she was. After a hesitation, she completes the sentence by saying that if she were it would be stabbing Jane in the back.
This is illogical. That just makes her attraction to Tom very difficult for her to deal with, but in no way implies that it doesn't exist. In fact, it tacitly implies that it does; otherwise she would have completed the sentence by pointing out how Tom is unsuitable or unattractive to her without reference to Jane.
Tom, of course, sees right through Daria in this conversation.
It's been said on this ng that Tom then "stole a kiss" from Daria. Not exactly. Watch it in slow motion if you've recorded it. Daria's staring tensely at the windshield. Tom leans toward her. She shifts her eyes to look at him. He's puckered up, his eyes closed, clearly leaning in for a kiss. DARIA DOESN'T REGISTER ANY SURPRISE AT ALL. She turns her head and puckers up. She was expecting this and was ready for it.
I think her Jake-like "Dammit" response was a reaction to the failure of her own self-deception.
"Making out" implies more than just a single kiss, though. At least the way I've usually heard the phrase used.
Having said that, I'll basically agree with you: if Daria had ever been kissed _passionately_ before that night, she wouldn't have made that statement, or looked so sad when she made it.
She's also feeling guilty even _before_ Tom kisses her: it's occurred to her that she may be the main reason why Tom is breaking up with Jane.
Heh-heh-heh ... I noticed this too :)
If she truly weren't interested in Tom, her next statement ("it would be stabbing Jane in the back") would be totally irrelevant. That statement makes it obvious that she's been thinking about it.
Good point. Though I still think it's the second kiss that makes it _obvious_ that Daria really wanted it.
It doesn't take *that long* to prepare oneself for a kiss! I think the first kiss was plainly stolen (though she didn't resist very hard). The second kiss was just as plainly given.
Very hard? She doesn't resist AT ALL. She doesn't pull back, turn away, put her hands up. Although she doesn't embrace him, she turns her head toward him (she'd been staring at windshield, straight ahead) and puckers up.
Later, talking to her mother, she refers to Tom as "the guy I PICKED to kiss."
Interesting also is Quinn's reply to being thanked for hosting the Blush-a-Thon: "If not you, who? If not now, when?" Although Daria, overhearing it, remarks "If not leave, puke" to Jodie, I wonder if Daria was actually inspired by this remark. Quinn's reply is too wordy and philosophical to be purposeless in terms of the episode.
Everyone keeps on saying that this was Daria's first kiss "that we know about." I think it's safe to say that this *was* her first real kiss. Family reunions don't count and neither do those dumb junior high style kissing games (which I highly doubt Daria would have participated in). Besides, she didn't specifically say it was her *first kiss* because that is not really part of her personality to be openly excited about something so personal. She did, however, imply that it was her first kiss by saying (I'm not sure if I got this right, but here it goes) "Of all the guys in the world I could've kissed, why did it have to be this one" and "Could you picture me making out with *anyone*?"
-----> Violator's Toad <-----
"Please be careful, I exist in someone else's head." - from "Annie" by Our Lady Peace
Well, there was some guy she liked back in Highland (he isn't named, he's only in one scene of one episode, they're holding hands at a party or something like that, so calling him her "boyfriend" is a bit of a stretch). It's also possible that she kissed someone off-camera in Lawndale (but you'd think that something this significant to character development would be mentioned or shown). Um, and Trent kissed her (chastely) once.
Having said that, the kiss from Tom was probably her first real kiss.
Plus, she was ashamed that she did it. Remember, Tom was still officially Jane's boyfriend at the time.
Ah but that's from an alternate reality that would only exist if Butthead had never been born it's called "It's a Missarable Life" or something like that, it's one of the Christmass Specials. Well I got the inference from the episode that in the alternate reality he was her boyfriend.
Daria: Hey Jane I went on this really hot date last night. :)
I think this is probably true :)
This is as far as I can tell true.
Phill....who really should not comment on episodes he has not seen :)
We don't know for sure that she was never (romantically) kissed before. We know that she had some sort of boyfriend (or friend) in one episode of _Beavis and Butthead_ ... when she was around 15. We also know that Trent once kissed her on the forehead.
Given that she's anti-social and was (until recently) extremely shy, it's probable (though not certain) that we saw her first real kiss last episode. I _very_ strongly suspect that this was her first _passionate_ kiss, in any case.
Though as I have said further up the thread, that boyfriend in B&B would only have been her boyfriend in the alternate reality where Butthead was not born, so probably was not her boyfriend in the normal timeline.
Thanks for putting only enough spoiler space to locate your comment nicely in the bottom quarter of my screen.
Sheesh.
Yes, I'm pissed off. It's not like I haven't made patient requests for forty lines; it's not like the spoiler policy is unclear; and Beth isn't the only culprit. I *enjoy* _Daria_, and my enjoyment is lessened when, the first time I see a new episode, I know what to expect.
My next act after hitting "post" is going to be to unsubscribe from this group.
This isn't "So long and thanks for all the fish!" I'll be here again in September, in the hopes that a few weeks without new episodes might have led to a lessening of spoily discussion.
*PLEASE STOP TOP POSTING IT IS NOT GOOD USENT PRACTICE AND MAKES THREADS HARDER TO FOLLOW*
[Also snipping irrelevent stuff like .sigs in followups is a good idea too]
<Vader> Apology accepted.......*THUNK* </Vader>
Yes which people who don't want to have spoiled will have skipped over, as I said it is a good idea to put something like :
Spoiler <episode number or name> : main subect
In the header then people will just be able to skip over the messages that they don't want to read. For the most part anything on Season 4 should be considdered a spoiler as most of us (outside the US) have not yet seen season 4, some places have not yet seen season 3, though I dunno if the group at large feel that anything regarding this should still have spoiler warnings.
Amongst all the off topic stuff yeah :)
Please realise that I'm not trying to tell anyone off, just outlining a few simple "rules" that will allow us all to get what we want out of the group, without falling out all the time, ok, ok without falling out whilst ON topic :)
Try to have a little courtsey and not ruin new episodes for those who haven't seen them yet. On the other hand, the day after a new episode aires might not be the best time for non-North American fans to read the newsgroup.
*krimren* c.a.t.a.t.o.n.i.a it's all over the front page/you give me road rage/racing through the best days/and it's up to you boy driving me crazy/thinking you may be losing your mind/
I know. But he basically said <Cartman voice>"Screw you guys, I'm going home!"
haven't
not
Exactly. Regulars should know to open any messages from unfamiliar persons at their own risk. But Beth did mark "Spoiler" at the top of her message and left a LOT of space.
Yes it stinks that the spoiler space was not large enough but let's think about this logically for one minute: it said spoiler at the top of the screen. I don't know about the rest of you but I usually read posts from the top down. And the fact that he read past the word spoiler should have stopped him, whether or not it's on his screen. It was very obvious she was attempting to warn people.
While I think that she should have added more spoiler space, threatening to leave a newsgroup because of something like this seems a little... I don't know. I'm just saying that he could have shown restraint and not actually read past the word spoiler if he really tried. (I'm not blasting you Martin - I just think you were a little harsh in pushing all the blame on Beth)
respect those who haven't read the group before they posted fot long enough to notice that pretty much everyone else is using the agreed 40 lines of spoiler space, and that there may be a reason for this? may i ask why?
I never counted exactly the lines left. I run Oulook Express at 1024x768, half headers and half message space, and Beth left plenty of room. I know in the UK you guys also read from the top-downward. She said "spoiler" at the top of her message. She may not be a USENET expert, but she seemed to do fine in my book. Martin flamed her as if she posted the spoiler in the first line, or the header for that matter.
Cool site. Not to imply all Greek/Brits look alike but there IS a resemblance to Marina Sirtis (IMHO).
Yes but the point is if you run a newsreader *OTHER* than outlook express (yes they do exist, we've not all sold our souls to Satan^H^H^H^H^H Micro$oft), as I do where the message is opened *FULL SCREEN* even if there is spoiler at the top some of the message was still on the screen to read, and he wouldn't have been able to avoid seeing it. Also as I said in my other message, it is also customery to put SPOILER: in the message *SUBJECT* then Martin probably would not have even opened the message.
Yeah it is quite a cool site. Though I don't think Alli's met any Klingons yet :)
Since this is the big-spoiler-argument of the moment, I think my question is relevant. I use Remarq, and it sometimes cuts out all of the spoiler space created when someone uses only greater- than signs before the message starts. Does this happen to anyone else?
-----> Violator's Toad <-----
"Please be careful, I exist in someone else's head." - from "Annie" by Our Lady Peace
Yeah, that's one of the reaons I added the "Theme Song" to the DRR posts (I like it, too). One way to get around this is to put some text on each line (like write out "spoiler" and cut and paste it 40 or 50 times).
"Michael J. Quinn" wrote in message news:[email]...
Me too.
I've seen posts where the writer just hit enter without adding any text, so the spoiler space was blank. When I replied, the blank space disappeared. I don't know if this has to do with one's newsreader or what. I'd suggest typing something, even just a symbol, on each line.
It's also perferable to put something to the effect of Spoiler : blah in the subject so that people can just skip over posts that contain possible spoiler material.
This is sad hope you do indeed decide to come back Martin, as you are one of the more intelegent and courtious members of the group.
Ok a couple of points. Before critisizing other people's posts, please learn to post peroperly yourself, it is somewhat easier to follow a thread if you post ther replies *UNDER* the text you are repplying to, this is a simple and well defined netiquate rule that has been around for *YEARS* or cirtainly as long as I have been using usenet, which is since 1993.
Secondly have a little considderation for those that do not see the episodes on the first showing, I personally don't mind spoilers, but a lot of people *DO* rember that alt.tv.daria is an international group, whcih means that a lot of the people here will not have seen the episodes yet, and do not want to know what goes on before hand *infact of course this also applies to people living in the US who missed the episode on it's first showing as well).
Thirdly, Martin is an intelegent and well respected member of this group, this is probably the first time in my two years or so that I have ever heard him sound off like this, and I think you'll find that he wouldn't be doing what he does in real life, if he had not yeat grown up properly. All he has asked is for some simple rules to be followed when descussing potential spioler material which are IMHO perfectly reasonable.
Sheesh, why do I feel that Jodie's rant a Gram would be apropreate here ?
Do you know how newsgroups work? You're supposed to LURK for about a MONTH before you post anything. At the very least get a hold of an FAQ for the newsgroup so you don't embarrass yourself. That's just the way it works. It's been this way for years. If you don't respect the regulars of a newsgroup and just come running headlong into the discussion like the proverbial bull in the china shop, you might end up pissing a lot of people off.
Funny thing that you brought up respect. The spoiler policy here exists BECAUSE of respect. A newsgroup doesn't just exist in the same place in the world that you do. Newsgroups can be read, like the rest of the internet, ALL OVER THE WORLD. In some places in the world, Season 4 episodes have not yet been aired. I think it's not TOO difficult to show some respect for people like Martin, who don't want to read about episodes they haven't seen yet.
As a newbie, one should respect the regulars and defer to their rules, not start posting the minute you come across a newsgroup and unwittingly annoy the hell out of a lot of people. I completely understand Martin's frustration. To anyone who's lurked for even a couple of days here, it should be obvious that all the blank space at the top of all the posts (clearly labelled "SPOILER SPACE") is there for a damn good reason. Why the hell else would it be there, for the fun of it??
I'm sure none of what I said even registered. I'm sure I'm just talking to myself. Carry on with your disrespectful selves. Forget I said anything.
I've been "lurking" here for nearly a couple YEARS! I got the Kyle "fresh fish" and all.
Unmoderated group FAQs aren't exactly "canon". Everyone has a different opinion.
I'm well aware of the "spoiler" arguments that have raged here for quite some time. Some of them are quite inane (IMO). She marked "spoiler" at the top of her message, and left plenty of space. I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to read from the top->down.
Martin, in effect, threw a USENET hissy-fit. He needs to get out more if he has a problem with the way Beth posted, and it seems quite childish to me.
(see above)
In an umoderated group, we are all equals. I'm sorry, but I don't think I should defer to some hierarchy.
Again, see above. This "spoiler space" BS annoys the hell out of _me_. Putting "SPOILER" in the heading, or the first line (which she did, with space to boot) should be enough. If you've been lurking around here long enough you should know to open each message at your own risk.
I'm sure if I read a spoiler unintentionally I'd skip the episode. NOT.
anything.
It's a TV show. And an animated comedy at that. Relax.
But they are usually generally agreed on by the regulars of that group, at the point that they are created.
Maybe, but most people will scan a message first, and human nature being what it is, will read without wanting to a part lower down. A better aproch would have been to have included a spoiler warning in the *SUBJECT* then Martin (or anyone else that doesn't want to be spoiled), could skip the thread entirely.
Do you really know what Martin does, if you have indeed been lurking here for as long as you say you will, and I think if you knew and *RESPECTED* that you would not have made the above and IMHO rather stupid statement.
If anyone is being childish it's you, whining because you don't agree with the well accepted conventions of the news group.
Then you should be prepared to accept it when the regulars all turn round and flame you for not wanting to play by the "rules".
She put spoiler at the top of the message, with not enough space blow it IMHO, and did *NOT* put spoiler in the title which IMHO is a better way of doing it.
Listen very carefully I'll say this nice and slowly so that you may understand, <Tiffany like voice>She put nothing in the subject to indicate that it was a spoiler</Tiffany like voice>
So you are saying effectivly that we should not open any message for fear of being spoiled, so if this is the case we may as well all quit a.t.d until MTV start shoing all episodes at the same time worldwide.
Now who's being immature ?
Let's put it like this I could not care a dman about knowing the story beforehand, I wouldn't have bought the Daria tape, if I had, but a I'll think you'll find that most people *DO* mind it being spoiled, and it does ruin there enjoyment of the ep fist time.
Right about the time you learn to live by the "rules" that are here for everyone's benifit.
Sorry to evryone else if this came over as a little aggressive, but people who say there are rules fuck them, I'm gonna break them just for the hell of it (or so it seems to me), just piss me off.
Phill....all opinions are my own and nobody elses...etc.
WARNING: Somewhere in this message there is a very bad pun. You have been warned.
I think that's about how long I've been here, but I've taken a couple long breaks (i.e. when there's no new episodes I don't usually bother reading this place). I don't think I got the fresh fish treatment because I never made one of those introductory posts, I just dove in. Actually I just checked and my first post was apparently 7/10/99 (that's July 10, not October 7 you damn foreigners! Ah, I kid the foreigners) when I for some reason was asking Martin about sachbutts (hey he seemed to know his medieval instruments). I swear I'm not making that up. So anyway, I don't remember how long I was lurking before that, but knowing me it was probably like a day or something. After all, what fun is making up arbitrary rules regarding lurktime if you can't break them?
Well, that's true but... um.... oh. Yeah.
Oh yeah, well that's true too but... but, uh... I don't know, actually. That is kinda weird, I mean if you see spoiler right at the top wouldn't you just move on to the next message immediately? I guess I just figured it's a nice courtesy and it doesn't really bother me to do it, so why not do it. I dunno.
I didn't mean to imply you were a newbie. I was generalizing at this point.
Well if you insist on being rational about it. Hierarchies are so fun though!
You know, maybe I'm nuts but you're starting to make a lot of sense to me here. If I knew the newsgroup I was reading had a bunch of stuff in it I didn't want to read, I'd be real careful about what messages I read.
Fuck it, I'm with you dude. No more spoiler space for me!
You shut up! Daria's real. She's real, damn it. And she will be mine.
Relax.
I really should, but all this humidity... I don't know, it just turns me into a Nazi or something. Weird.