It ain't 'Lucky Strike' but I haven't seen a 'sweeter' episode. Helen and Quinn having a meaningful conversation without Quinn running away?
Jake shows that he isn't just "Homer Simpson on crank" but a nice middle aged man that just about anyone can get along with.
The male bonding with Jake, Jeffy, and Tom was definitely one of the highlights of the episode.
<Whoop there it is?! And the go carts??!! Classic! >
At the same time it brings back that 'Classic Daria' wit, biting sarcasm with a smile, that we have not seen since Season 3!
<I didn't know it was gone until I saw this episode. FLM had a little bit of it but that was an FC ep....>
Aaah yes! Let us not forget the sweet torment Daria put Quinn through this episode.
Just when I think the little girl is going soft she turns around and does this!
Daria has not lost her touch, even with the on set of family bonding that's been going on this season.
And Quinn? I'm amazed! She showed something that I always suspected. She really does care what Daria thinks.
She's her little sister so I guess that would make sense. You could tell that Quinn is trying to make up for not being as intelligent or mature (in her eyes) as Daria. I think this is because she knows she has totally lost face with Daria (which she has) but only recently has she cared enough to do something about it.
Or maybe she was too ashamed to do something about it and hid behind that shallow facade all these years?
And maybe I'm just seeing things that are not there...
Overall a very good episode. On to Lady Lane and her new beau.
In DDMD he was ranting about killing or drowning squirrels, but when he actually caught one he took it out of the county and released it.
Imagine what Beavis and Butthead would have done to a captive squirrel.
Or even Sandi and Tiffany. (Let's break his fingers!)
I didn't realize until this episode just how stodgy Tom had been in previous episodes. This time he kinda went to the other extreme, but, as someone (was it Heinlein?) once said, anything worth doing is worth overdoing. :-)
A little surprising Quinn wouldn't see through that. "Tom and I don't spend 24 hours a day together because we go to different schools". Do they spend all their non-school time together, Quinn? Duh! Wake up, Quinn!
And letting Sandi play head-games with you at this stage? Please, Quinn, please!
I thought Quinn had gained in stature with her more studious ways in IIFY and "Lucky Strike".
Daria: "Why are you defending the stupid? You're not one of them!"
Well, I wouldn't call the way Quinn went about choosing a steady (ha!) boyfriend mature or deep. But at least she's trying something new.
I was hoping to see a clip on MTV's website for this, but they never even got a "One J at a Time" clip posted.
M Man
--------------
Jake, Tom and Jeffy: Whoop! There it is! Whoop! There it is! .....
That's the problem. We know now she's not stupid. But she still acts stupid too often.
Of course, hanging around with the FC can't be helping.
You're insulting creek water.
She supposedly has most of the boys at LHS to choose from, yet she tried each of the three J's as a steady boyfriend. Nobody new.
I suspect most of the guys who filled out her "applications" at the pizza shop were treating the whole thing as a big joke. And treating her as a big joke.
M Man
__________
Daria: I know the whole school's turning itself inside out because of some egotistical football player. And I've seen you insult or proposition just about everyone you come across. So my guess is that you're the football player guy. Congratulations you must have worked very hard to become a colossal jerk so quickly.
Tommy: You know what Tommy Sherman's going to do now? He's going to go out onto the field and check out his new goal post. He's going to read the plaque and think of all the people who admire him. But you wouldn't know anything about that. You're one of those misery chicks. Always moping about what a cruel world it is, making a big deal about it so people won't notice that you're a loser. (walks off)
After "Lucky Strike", I have no idea why Quinn would hang around with Sandi anymore. Or why anyone would hang around Sandi anymore. Well, maybe Tiffany.
But who else besides the 3 J's really keeps coming back? They (the other boys) may be notorious for something they don't do. Look how quickly both Ronnie and Skylar gave up on her in "Pinch Sitter"
Speaking of Skylar, do we actually know that anyone else has taken her to Chez Pierre? She talks about it a lot, hints about it. But when else has she been there? Have I forgotten an episode or two?
Or are they alone in their extreme adoration?
If you mean the 3 J's, probably.
They may be the only boys who REALLY like her.
I don't think she realizes that.
M Man
__________
Quinn: A shrink would have a field day with my head...
Helen: ...if he listened to the sentence I just said.
In 'The Story Of D', for example, Sandi was downright decent. She was nice, courteous, and listening to others.
When 'Lucky Strike' hit, she was back to her old self. Quinn put her in check at the end, but that's only because she was messing with her sister.
Blood is thicker than water.
Unfortunately the growth we saw for Sandi in 'Fat Like Me' seems to have almost disappeared.
I'm kind of disappointed. That's a heavy confession from someone who has been an avid Sandi basher over the years.
The 'Sandi Underground' out there ALMOST had me rooting for Ms Griffin's salvation.
Oh well...
behind
(ha!)
tried
because
pizza
Of
boys)
Ronnie and
Chez
been
Believe me. Quinn has no problem with getting dates. Even with her 'date 'em and leave 'em' reputation. Why do you think Sandi worked so hard to get Quinn to find a steady boyfriend.
"More boys for us!" is how I think Sandi put it.
And I don't think she's talking about The Three J's
Remember Helen in Pinch Sitter speaking about the three young men who all showed up at once for a date with Quinn?
Helen - I can't have another fiasco like last Saturday night. Think of how it must have felt when those three boys all showed up at the same time!
Quinn - It felt great!
See above.
she
They're sycophants. And you know how Quinn feels about them.
They are not potential boyfriends, they are resources. To take another quote from 'Pinch Sitter' regarding another poor fool who was infatuated with Quinn:
Ronny - You want me to take over your baby-sitting job? I'm not sure Quinn.
Quinn - Please? Just this once. You're the only person I can trust to do this! I can tell by your eyes...
Ronny - Really?
Quinn - Yeah! They're so... sincere!
Ronny - Well...
Quinn - and your face, it's very... honest! You're so nice, and dependable, and...
Ronny - Nice? Sincere? You're never gonna go out with me, are you?
Well, I don't suppose she does. I just don't think the other guys are quite as dumb about it as is usually supposed. As far as we know, only Skylar was dumb enough to drop $85 on her at Chez Pierre.
I think most of her dates know exactly what they're getting into. She's cute and flirty and that's about all. And, since she never keeps a steady boyfriend, she's always available.
Remember her comments to Daria in Speed-Trapped? "What do you think people do on dates?" They weren't in Chez Pierre. I think Quinn and her dates mostly just cruise around, like they were doing in "The New Kid."
I don't think Sandi's scheme would have worked. If Sandi can't get dates, at least with decent guys, it's her personality that's the problem. Except for that ugly scowl, she's better-looking than Quinn.
So who does Quinn date that's better? Shawn in "The New Kid" was a total wimp.
Robert? Duhhhh!
Corey? Maybe he'd be compatible with Sandi. Matching snideness.
I knew it wouldn't last. If Sandi ceased permanently to be a raging asshole, some of the dramatic and comic potential of the show would be lost.
Of course, it IS good to want a person to do better. It speaks well of the Sandi Underground that they wanted her to change instead of making excuses for her loathesome personality.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:3LPO6.38563$[email], on the date of 23 May 2001: S P O I L E R - S p a c e - a d d e d
Hey! Speaking as Sandi's Number One Fan (and I'll fight anyone else for the title), I don't think I was making excuses. Really, I wasn't. Not a bit! I was just pointing out that, as with most of the characters, her characterization is more subtle than 'raging asshole.' She has shown real leadership qualities, and she generally takes more responsibility for things than Quinn does - at least, I don't recall an episode where Sandi potentially doomed an entire school outing to starvation because she wanted someone to carry her luggage; and when she's at her worst ("Daria Dance Party" and "Just Add Water," for example) it often boomerangs on her. Quinn, though, has also shown her share of heartlessness (the end of "The Daria Hunter") and savage competitiveness (most notably in "Pierce Me" - "But it's not a competitive event." "Oh, it will be.").
And while we're on the subject of Sandi, I find it amusing that some people criticize her for being so mean to Quinn, and yet they fail to criticize Daria for doing exactly the same thing. If anything, Daria's meanness is worse because she's so inventively cruel, as with the business about the burial plots (and by casually planting the 'cute nickname' virus, Daria has probably helped ensure that Jeffy will be known as 'Jeffy-Lube' for the rest of his life). True, Daria loves Quinn, but as we saw in 'Fat Like Me', Sandi loves her as well; she just gets on their nerves.
None of this is to excuse Sandi's loathsome snobbishness and shallowness; but if Quinn can develop as a character without giving up those qualities, I don't know why Sandi can't. Her real problem is that she doesn't have the family support that Quinn has.
I don't think she's misunderstood, I think she needs better friends, who can help her channel her ruthlessness and sarcastic sense of humor into more productive channels. After all, sarcasm, meanness, and cutthroat behavior can be virtues in the world of 'Daria'. Sandi will never be a brain, but she's not stupid - she just focuses her mental energy on popularity and fashion instead of learning.
Just wait and see, I tell you. There's more to Sandi than meets the eye. And I'm writing the fanfic to prove it!
Yours, Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus who is, in fact, colorblind
That was because of the stupidity of The Three J's. They volunteered to carry Quinn's bags They also took it upon themselves to leave the bags at the bus.
and when she's at her worst ("Daria Dance
Well 'The Daria Hunter' was one of the few episodes where I did feel sorry for Sandi.
For an episode at least. Then I got over it.
'Pierce Me' was a disaster. I expect that Sandi and her mother were smirking in the audience, ala 'Fair Enough', when Helen and Quinn fell on the runway at the Mother Daughter Fashion Show.
I still cringe just thinking about that scene.
people
has
It's Daria's show. She can do whatever she wants to.
Besides she's SUPPOSED to torture Quinn. She's her big sister. That's what older siblings do.
It's fun!
But no else can!
So nyaaah....
:)
Actually there are a few pro-Sandi fanfics out there that are pretty damn good. 'Outage' by MikeYamiolkoski being one of my favorites.
And thing you said about Daria and Sandi being just the same. It reminds of that fanfic 'Otherwise Known As Quinn The Great' by John Takis
Quinn states the same thing in that fic too.
However, until you write your fanfic my friend, I'll keep my Sandi bashing weapon poised and ready.
Just in case.
Old habits die hard man, and old prejudices die harder...
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:y6_O6.40222$[email], on the date of 23 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
I remembered that differently, then - I'll dig out my tape. The fact that Quinn actually accepted responsibility ("I'm sorry I doomed us all to a lingering death" - one of my all-time favorite Quinn lines) led me to believe that she was, in fact, responsible, although the neuron-deficient J's certainly bore a lot of responsibility.
That's a painful scene, to be sure, but in much the same way that Sandi gets paid back for her nastiness, I think Quinn got paid back for hers. Being like Sandi doesn't pay.
Nah, it's Jane's show, she just got them to title it 'Daria' so she could take a break every now and then.
Well, where I come from, that's also what best friends do. (Hmm...could be why I don't have very many friends, come to think of it.)
Jane does it fairly frequently - being the star's best friend has its privileges, even if she does betray you and run off with your boyfriend.
[snippage]
Yow! I haven't read that one yet, I'll have to look it up. The last fanfic I read that involved Sandi had her as a knife-wielding heroin addict who had sex with Upchuck and stabbed Jane to death. Just a *touch* out of character.
Nah, it's cool. As long as you don't mind if I defend, I don't mind if you bash!
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:2WxP6.44758$[email], on the date of 25 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
Except that (a) Quinn had already planned to get a steady boyfriend (to impress Helen!) and (b) she gave up on the idea by the end of the show, so the other FCers are out of luck.
(Lately the Khmer Blush has been having problems even when they do cooperate, as in "The Story of D" and "Art Burn." It just doesn't pay to be popular!)
She's been pretty restrained about it, all things considered.
Yup. I had previously read the Wouter Jaegers story "Another Week in Lawndale," which included a cute Pok�mon parody, so I took a gander at that one. All people who secretly suspected that Lawndale was a hotbed of racism and homophobia get their suspicions confirmed. Yipes!
The single most unsettling moment in the whole story for me: Trent saying "Holy Guacamole!" I just can't help but see Trent suddenly morph into Miss Piggy. That's...disturbing.
(And how, exactly, did Sandi shave Upchuck's head with a knife? I'm still trying to work that out.)
a) Although Daria is truly sorry for what happened, they really can't be friends if Jane forever beats her over the head with it. It's one or the other.
b) I don't think Jane really wants to keep the subject alive. It's just bad memories for her.
I think Jane got the snide remarks about Daria and Tom out of her system during the Sarcastithon.
Jane: This next episode is "I Loathe a Parade," and although I don't want to give anything away, let's just say it explores issues of loyalty and trust....
<Jane gives Daria a sidelong look. Daria gets a mournful expression on her face.>
Jane: I told you, I'm over it.
Daria: Then can you put that baton down, please?
Or when they introduced DDMD:
Daria: Speaking of which, here's the final episode of our fourth season, "Dye! Dye! My Darling," where you could say that things come to a head between Jane and me.
Jane: But we've worked it out, and now I'm once again friends with this [blow dryer bleeps out Jane's words] to my left.
I really can't read lips that well, especially cartoon ones, but I think Jane called Daria a 'two faced b&$#@'.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 26 May 2001:
I agree; it was pretty clear from the confrontation in the club in IIFY that Jane was most hurt by the thought that Daria valued a relationship with Tom more than her friendship with Jane. Now that she's finally worked through her anger (and stopped calling Daria 'Morgendorffer' all the time), I imagine she just wants to let it go.
Actually, something else came out of that confrontation that may pertain to the issue under discussion:
Jane: Please tell me you're not trying to get my sympathy after blowing me off for my now ex-boyfriend.
Daria: You mean he blew you off for me.
If Jane truly wants to get nasty about this, Daria holds the unbeatable trump card: Tom picked Daria over Jane. Jane's not made of stone; if Daria ever decided to rub it in, Jane's going to lose her composure big time.
I think the conversation went on after that point with Daria saying that if she remembered correctly, Tom's "blowing [Jane] off for [Daria]" didn't exactly happen that way, though I could be wrong on that. However, it IS true that Jane, due to her anger, probably thought that because Daria had been dating Tom, that that meant Daria valued this new relationship more than her long-term friendship with Jane. What she didn't take into account was the fact that Daria wanted to keep her friendship with Jane enough that she was willing to confront Jane on the last day of school and urge Jane to discuss her feelings over "the Tom thing". Jane hadn't gotten over her feelings about Tom and Daria's actions, despite what she said, and as long as she kept clinging to her feelings of betrayal, she'd never get past it and move on. Fortunately, she did get over her feelings and move on, as far as I can tell.
Competitiveness is not necessarily "mean". And Sandi and Linda would have considered the event competitive even if Quinn and Helen hadn't.
Until "Lucky Strike" Daria actually had a reason to torture Quinn. Trying to pass off a sister as an adopted cousin/cabana girl/maid/au pair is Not Nice.
In "Lucky Strike" Sandi really thought that publicly revealing that Daria is Quinn's sister would destroy Quinn's social status. That's seriously cruel. Quinn wasn't going to be hurt if she spent her afternoons watching football practice in response to Daria's prodding.
The trouble is, she has better friends. Quinn and Stacy, for example. But they don't seem to influence her for the better, not significantly. In fact, she's spent much of the series putting down Quinn and Stacy, while mostly leaving Tiffany alone.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 24 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
Sure, but I still think the point of that subplot was that bad things happen to you if you act too much like Sandi.
Neither is lying to your best friends for years and years about it. That's another area where Quinn and Sandi compete - telling outrageous lies (consider Quinn's automatic lie-response in "Of Human Bonding" when the Fashion Club questioned her about not having a date that weekend). Sandi at least has never tried to pass off her kid brothers as cousins, even though she can't stand them.
Sure. Quinn set herself up for that by lying about it in the first place.
True. I was only thinking of Sandi and Daria's treatment of Quinn in this particular episode; they've both done meaner things to her in the past. Daria has more a conscience than Sandi does, but she was certainly planning to be as mean as possible to Quinn in 'Monster' (and Jane was disappointed when she didn't). It points up the difference in their home lives again; Helen is a positive influence on Daria, and Linda is the worst possible influence on Sandi.
I didn't mean better than Sandi, I meant better than the friends she's currently got - in other words, friends who aren't fashion and status- obsessed and can stick up for themselves without resorting to coyness, as Quinn does. (Though such friends would necessarily be better than Sandi, come to think of it.)
I think that's probably because she recognizes that it would be a complete waste of time to use sarcastic putdowns on Tiffany. Stacy's tirade had no discernible effect, and if that couldn't get through to her nothing can.
Not exactly equivalent. Quinn's lying to Sandi didn't ruin Sandi's social status, nor was it an attempt to do so.
But of course Quinn could have saved herself a lot of worry all along by not trying to keep up that silly pretense.
Not sure why she did it after this exchange from "The Invitation":
Jamie: Quinn, I don't care if your sister is a brain. I would never hold it against you. So, you want to go in the laundry room?
Joey: Hands off, Jamie. Quinn, you may come from a nerdy family but that makes your popularity, like, even more amazing. Now, why don't we ditch these two losers?
Jeffy: Take a hike, Joey. Quinn, if you were my girlfriend, we could ignore your sister together. Now will you go steady with me? At least for a couple of hours.
I think there's a big difference between Daria and Sandi in this respect. Daria's disappointed that Quinn is so shallow and believes she could be better. Sandi is jealous of Quinn's popularity. Daria's motivation is a (very misguided) attempt to make Quinn better, while Sandi really wants to tear Quinn down.
I can't imagine why better people would want to BE her friends. Or why Quinn and Stacy want to be, really.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 24 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
Daria certainly cares a lot more about Quinn than she'd like to admit, but sometimes she makes up blatant lies to maneuver Quinn out of the way - she was pretty obviously just trying to get rid of Quinn when she told her that she had to spend every waking moment with her boyfriend. (I don't blame her one bit for this, either - Quinn annoys me as much as she annoys Daria and Jane.)
Don't forget that her nastiness didn't really surface until the episode "Too Cute" - it was initially triggered after the following exchange:
Jeffy: You really know how to tell a story.
Sandi: Thanks.
Jamie: Tell us about the part with Quinn again
Sandi: Quinn wasn't in that story. It was me, Tiffany, and Stacy.
Joey: Well, then take Stacy out and put Quinn in.
(Thanks again to Outpost Daria.)
It seems plausible that Sandi, Stacy, and Tiffany got along fine before Quinn changed the dynamic of the club - in "Road Worrier" Sandi is supportive of the club again, and she has occasional moments of supportiveness in later episodes. Sandi deals with her jealousy in the worst possible way, but the jealousy itself is perfectly understandable, in my opinion -- even though she lacks natural charisma, Sandi managed to become popular enough to be President of the Fashion Club, only to see Quinn waltz into town and effortlessly steal everything Sandi worked to achieve. That Quinn never really intended to do it probably makes it worse from Sandi's perspective; the saddest thing is that deep down Sandi cares about Quinn, as was shown in "Fat Like Me." One of the most striking things about the show is the fact that most of the characters and their relationships are just a hair's-breadth away from being unbearably sad; the fact that the show manages to stay so funny is a real tribute to the writers' skill.
Out of the way? I don't get the point. Quinn does NOT spend her time hanging around Daria or Jane, making a nuisance of herself.
I don't think that was Daria's goal, anyway. I think she was teasing the supposed "dating expert" about her complete cluelessness about how to actually deal with having a boyfriend.
Though I think Quinn was very gullible to fall for that 24-hour-a-day line. The only response that deserved was a sarcastic "Ha, ha, Daria. Very funny."
Did Quinn *steal* the Fashion Club? Sandi has remained president except for part of FLM, and resigned because of her weight, not due to any manueving by Quinn. Imagine what Quinn COULD have done in that episode if she wanted to. Hell, she could have been rid of Sandi by doing exactly nothing.
What did Quinn *steal*? The boys of Lawndale *belong* to Sandi? I don't think so.
And I really don't think all the boys at Lawndale have sworn off all girls but Quinn. Quinn likes to think so, but the events of the episodes just don't support it. If Quinn actually spent several weeks dating a pathetic boy like Shawn (of "The New Kid") I don't think she's able to hog all the studs at LHS. That's probably why she was nasty to Shawn; that's she's dating someone like him reminds her how overblown her reputation is.
Remember "The Lab Brat"? Kevin's dopey, but if she wants to date someone prestigious, well, he's the QB. But she failed spectacularly with Kevin.
The FC's "popularity" is a joke. They're followed by some noticeably dopey guys and that's about it - the J's, Robert, Shawn, a few others.
However, if Quinn's more popular than Sandi, Stacy and Tiffany (which she certainly is), they might think about WHY. It's not looks. You can make a good case that the other three are all better-looking than Quinn. Maybe flirting and sweet-talking work better than haughtiness and standoffishness? Imagine that!
The reason I think Sandi is truly nasty is that she seems to hate anyone who's better at ANYTHING than her - even things she makes no effort at. Like the way she hates good students or athletic girls. She wants to tear down or belittle anyone she can't feel superior to.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 26 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
In the scene in question, Daria is trying to concentrate on something in the newspaper, and Helen is already bothering her about inviting Tom over to dinner; as soon as Helen takes a call, Quinn comes over and starts fishing for compliments from Daria ("Much contemplation was involved"). My interpretation of the scene was that Daria wanted to get rid of her so she could concentrate on the newspaper.
The crucial line was "Unless you want to start causing problems this early in the relationship." Quinn couldn't afford to take the risk that Daria was joking.
Quinn 'stole' Sandi's popularity, which is the only thing Sandi's ever had. (I don't think Quinn did this intentionally, hence the quotes; but Quinn is undeniably much more popular than Sandi, and Sandi undeniably resents it. As I said, it's a sad situation.)
I don't think that was implied, just that with her out of the way there'd be more boys for the rest of them.
That's an interesting point; I'll have to go rewatch that episode.
Not completely; remember, at the end, when Kevin asks Daria if Quinn could come to a party? (Also, that episode highlights Quinn's mercenary nature, in my opinion - she knows perfectly well that Kevin and Brittany are a couple, and still does everything she can to make him her boyfriend.)
Well, we only seem them from Daria and Jane's perspective, most of the time, and since Daria and Jane both think of them as a joke, that's how they're shown; but based on the evidence of the show, we could also conclude that the Cheerleading Squad is a joke - has any of them besides Brittany ever been shown with a boyfriend?
But the problem is that Quinn's popularity comes naturally; it's not really an attitude that Sandi, Stacy or Tiffany could adopt, it's part of Quinn's personality. She's shown just as much nastiness as any of the other Clubbers, but people overlook it because she's cute:
"Quinn - Quinn - There goes your boyfriend!" "So?" "So he's your boyfriend! Run to him, Quinn!" "Oh yeah! Hey, Jamie, you idiot!"
Call me weird, but calling your new boyfriend an idiot is a bad way to start off a relationship.
That's been true of all the Fashion Club members, though, *including* Quinn; she was just as nasty as any of them about athletes in "See Jane Run," and before IIFY Quinn had very little use for good students; she enjoyed being thought of as smart in "Quinn the Brain" so long as she was popular because of it (and because it was bothering Daria so much), but she was dismayed when Sandi ordered her to take a fashion sabbatical.
I think that overstates the case; she tends to belittle people _because_ she feels superior to them, in my opinion. If you raise a child to believe that she (or he) is naturally superior to everyone else, the child will believe it, no matter how manifestly untrue it is (and I'm speaking from personal experience here). I think that cuts to the heart of Sandi's problem with Quinn - Quinn is a living refutation of everything Sandi's been taught to believe about herself.
Daria's reference to "never missing Tom's luge races" practically screamed "Quinn! This is a joke! I'm just teasing!"
Do we *know* that Sandi was truly popular before Quinn came? She looked as bitter in the flashback scene (which took place before she met Quinn) in "Daria Dance Party" as she does now.
Maybe it's just harder for her to *pretend* (to Stacy and Tiffany) to be popular with Quinn around.
HOW MANY FREAKIN' BOYS DO THREE GIRLS NEED?
Sorry for yelling.
How many boys do three girls need? Are they hoarding them? Collecting one of each kind? Trying to find the one with the prize certificate inside?
Sounds more like nasty petty jealousy.
Not necessarily as his date.
Sure, that's not nice. But the whole Fashion Club operates that way, and it's pretty petty to be bitter at the one who does it best.
We've seen a LOT less of the cheerleaders.
I think we've seen enough of Robert, Corey, the J's, even Shawn to see these are NOT very swift guys. Robert bursts into tears if he can't sit at the "popular" table in the lunchroom; Shawn has about as much spine as Stacy at her lowest; Corey is a sneer in sneakers; the J's are the *best* of the lot and they're dumb enough to leave essential supplies behind on a mountain climb.
Where are the tall, handsome, expensive-car-driving, super-athletes the FC supposely can have their pick of?
It's possible to learn how to be nice, even to flirt. The point isn't to *copy* Quinn word for word and gesture for gesture; they can do it their own way.
Sometimes people use put-downs affectionately. And personality DOES make a difference there; if you're sneering or biting off your words, you probably DO really mean it.
In DDMD, Jane asks Daria if she's "gone completely utterly mad" when Daria offers to try dying Jane's hair again (after Jane dyed it back to black). Did she really mean it? Does she think Daria belongs in a mental institution? She just means that Daria's as likely to mess up the second time as the first, which is likely true.
When Jane screams at Daria immediately after seeing how the hair-dye job turned out, she really does mean the things she's saying.
And when Sandi calls people "losers" with venom in her voice, she means it.
As nasty? All Quinn says is that running would make her feet spread and she'd have to wear bigger shoes. Pretty shallow (though perhaps true), but not nasty.
Sandi says, loudly so Evan will hear, "What kind of LOSER would sign up for the track team?" Sounds nasty to me.
Quinn didn't go out of her way to belittle good students. In "Monster" she says she's just not a good student but she's good at other things. In QTB her first reaction to O'Neill telling her she got a bad grade is indifference, then a bit of panic when she thinks she might fail. But she doesn't start putting down better students or calling O'Neill a "loser".
In IIFY Quinn realizes she actually CAN be a good student and tries to do something about it. Sandi insults David when he tries to tutor her, refuses to pay any attention to the assignment in "Lucky Strike", calls all teachers "losers", on and on and on. God forbid she might try something as drastic as reading the assignment.
People who truly feel superior (with good reason) don't belittle others. Does Mark McGwire put down singles-hitters? Does Cindy Crawford call other women ugly?
I find it more likely that Sandi *knows* she's not superior and takes it out on everyone who dares not to be inferior to her.
If she thinks she's a superior student, she's truly living in a dream world. And that would have been long before she met Quinn.
I doubt if Linda really tells her she's superior. Linda can belittle Sandi as much as she does anyone else (in the flashback in DDP she scolds Sandi for allowing herself to be "used" as a dance organizer).
Question: if Sandi and Quinn's situations in "Fat Like Me" had been reversed, do you think Sandi would have done for Quinn what Quinn did for Sandi in the episode as written? If so, why?
In a sense, I suppose they are collecting them. Or rather, collecting their attention and discarding the actual boys one by one.
It's still nasty petty jealousy to be bitter toward the fourth girl who's been the most successful at it.
Stealing a guy who's "spoken for" is worth bonus points in the FC universe.
Even Kevin, dopey as he is, comes closer to that description than the boys I mentioned above. And the FC girls aren't looking for intelligent guys, anyway.
But even Kevin's out of their league, along with Mack. Hell, even Jane's erstwhile crush Evan would be better, but Sandi called him a "loser" for trying to recruit girls for the track team.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 26 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
That line came later, after Daria had already established that Quinn was sufficiently nervous about screwing up that she would take what Daria said and run with it. Honestly, I think Daria just wanted to see how far she could push it; and when Quinn swallowed the luge races, Daria escalated to joint cemetery plots.
Daria gives Quinn serious advice if she feels the situation merits it (see 'Is It Fall Yet' and 'Lucky Strike,' among others), but in this ep Quinn was trying to impress Helen by proving that she was as mature as Daria - Daria would have to be a saint to resist an opportunity to screw with Quinn's head over _that_.
That was a home scene, though, and a special circumstance; and note that Sandi evidently *had* volunteered to take care of the dance decorations, without realizing that she couldn't handle it. I don't think we can draw any general conclusions from that scene (other than Linda's being a bad influence on Sandi, of course).
She was popular enough to be invited to Brittany's party ("The Invitation") without providing help with Brittany's schoolwork (at least, I think that's a safe assumption), and popular enough in "Just Add Water" to make her being dumped by Brent a subject of gossip - if she wasn't popular, who'd care whether or not she got dumped?
Well, sure. But it's been clearly established in past episodes that the FCers run through boys faster than Jane runs through Cadmium Red, and Quinn's been at the forefront, even to the point of planning breakups months in advance ("Pinch Sitter"). It's difficult for me to work up much sympathy for a girl who coordinates her breakups with the seasons...
Sure, that's why I said "not completely." On the other hand, Kevin's concept of fidelity is a bit...flexible. "I promised Quinn I'd help her practice her back massage technique..."
Sure it's petty. I'll never claim the Fashisti aren't petty; but Quinn can be petty with the best of them.
Yes, but what we have seen suggests that none of them but Brittany can get dates (see "Daria Dance Party" - there was no suggestion that any of the other cheerleaders had a date!). I'm not saying that they're actually meant to be seen as unpopular, just that they're shown that way for plot purposes. And there have been numerous references to the Fashion Club's dates. I think they're popular with the 'popular' people at Lawndale High; we just don't see much of it because it's not the focus of the show. Sandi and Quinn were both at the Landons' party in "IIFY" - if Sandi's popular enough for the Landons, I think she still has a little clout.
They all had dates in "Just Add Water," among other eps.
We'll have to differ on that one; in my opinion flirting is either something you can do or you can't, and I've yet to see a counterexample.
Quinn certainly sounded like she meant it, to my ears at least. It foreshadowed her later insensitive treatment of Jamie.
Considering the overall tone of that episode, there might have been a *little* more to it than that. One of the most moving parts of the episode, to me, was the scene where Jane asks Tom if he was just using her to get to Daria and he says, jokingly, "Are you crazy?" The way she says "I don't know. Am I?" kills me every time; she's really not sure of herself at that point.
Sure; and when Quinn insults people, she means it too. The fact that she does it more casually than Sandi does isn't much of an improvement; I guess it's a question of whether you prefer someone to hurt you because she wants to (Sandi) or because she doesn't care whether she does or not (Quinn). Quinn fits Daria's characterization of her in "Write Where it Hurts": a stuck-up, self-absorbed little nightmare. She's been slowly approaching humanity, but she ain't quite there yet.
As I happen to have transcribed that scene:
Sandi: Can you imagine joining an actual sport? Stacy: You'd get all sweaty and your makeup would smudge! Tiffany:You're supposed to date jocks, not be one. Quinn: Oh, and I read in *Waif* that running makes your feet spread to a bigger shoe size, which would look really really really bad. Sandi, Stacy, and Tiffany: EEEEEEEYEWWWW!
It's the 'really really really' part that indicates nastiness to me (especially since Quinn is wearing horribly uncomfortable 'fashion' shoes in the same scene). And she doesn't suggest that *she'd* ever consider running!
Sure. Sandi's nasty. (So's Evan; as they say, it takes one to know one.)
And why Daria doesn't write the essay for her:
QUINN: Thanks Daria. This is going to work out for both of us. I mean, I get my essay written and for once you'll have something to do on a Friday night instead of sitting around like a loser, you know?
DARIA: That's it Shakespeare. Do your own damn homework.
This is the same Quinn who says:
QUINN: What am I going to do? I can't be a brain! My friends will hate me!
As I said, Quinn has shown some progress toward humanity; but as I also said, Quinn has better influences (and ulterior motives: she wants to impress David in IIFY, and she wants to punish Sandi for insulting Daria in "Lucky Strike")
Don't mistake *being* superior with *feeling* superior (although I wouldn't put Cindy Crawford in the former category). Also note that Ernest Hemingway often belittled other writers (particularly F. Scott Fitzgerald) and Ben Jonson practically made a career out of it. It's quite common in literary circles.
Of course she doesn't think she's a superior student; she thinks being a superior student = being inferior.
Again speaking from personal experience, that's consistent with what I was saying: the message Sandi gets from Linda is "You're superior to everyone else, but never think you're superior to me."
The only thing that might motivate Sandi to help Quinn in those circumstances would be awareness that Quinn would owe her, big time; I doubt that would be enough to overcome her desire to see Quinn permanently out of the way. Now, another question: Do you think Quinn would have done what she did for Sandi if Daria hadn't told her how great it was that Quinn was still friends with Sandi even though she would become less popular because of it?
I'm not sure we're actually disagreeing about this. I do think that Daria laid it on thick after Quinn didn't take her hints. It's rather extreme overkill if she just wanted to read a newspaper in peace.
It's the only pre-Quinn scene of Sandi we have, as far as I can remember. I certainly agree about Linda being a bad influence. But that obviates against Sandi being more or less nice before Quinn came along.
Brittany was also upset when Quinn showed up at her party because Quinn was too popular and might outshine her. She didn't express any such worry about any of the other FCers, whom she had presumably known much longer (Quinn had just moved to Lawndale).
Sandi's "Just Add Water" dumping was humiliatingly public. It would be gossiped about no matter whom it happened to. And if a lot of people hate her (with good reason), they'd be glad to see her taken down a peg.
Well, no doubt Quinn goes through boys quickly.
However, in the case of Skylar ...
I've long suspected Quinn wrote those entries in her organizer while Skylar was in the bathroom in Chez Pierre. Boy on Bike? That sounds hokey, especially coming from a girl who grades guys by their cars. What's she going to do? Ride on the handlebars to Chez Pierre?
I think she made it up to deliberately get rid of Skylar. She didn't blink when Skylar read about how he was supposed to be dumped in a few months - wouldn't she scream "you weren't supposed to see that!"? Wouldn't she at least change expression? She just watched Skylar carefully to see his reaction. Probably she felt she had to dump him this way because she thought he would be persisent and not take No for an answer.
Neither of which makes her more or less nice. I'm not saying Quinn doesn't treat boys callously. She can be, and usually is, shallow as a bathtub with a six-inch leak. But she's not a vindictive hateful bitch.
True enough.
Brittany's concept of fidelity is rather flexible, too. Remember the French exchange student she talked about in "The New Kid"? :-)
Sandi's a vindictive hater. Quinn isn't.
Mack? Jodie? Brittany? Kevin? They have little to do with the FC. Aside from being invited a few large gatherings, which you've already mentioned, they have nothing to do with the FC. And the FC has been the focus of many episodes, though of course not the whole series.
Note that all four of those I mentioned showed up to visit Daria when Daria was in the hospital for a few days ("Ill"). Nobody but Quinn visited Sandi when her leg was broken, or her weight gain wouldn't have been a surprise. Where were all the boys who should be visiting if Sandi is so popular? Is Quinn monopolizing all their time? Every one of them?
She may be there because of her father and mother's prominence. Very likely if Andrew put her name on the list.
If Jodie invited her, well, Jodie's so nice she likes everybody. I don't think she invited Daria because of Daria's "clout".
Also, Daria brought a date to the party. The FCers didn't. The only male attention we saw them - er, Quinn - receive was from the J's.
There's a big gap between "not dateless" and "popular". I speak from personal experience. :-)
OK. Probably. There are other examples between Jane and Daria anyway.
Definitely.
And I don't think Tom actually thinks Jane is crazy.
Not to me. It's just shallow. Runners often do end up with bad-looking feet. Quinn seems to be too conformist to disagree with Sandi and the others, but not nasty enough to say something really hateful. So she says something true - she prefers cute feet to excelling at sports (in distinction to Evan and Jane).
She wouldn't. A lot of people wouldn't. That's not nasty.
Thank you!
A bit shallow and jock-elitist w.r.t Jane's friendship with Daria. But short of nasty, much less hateful and vindictive.
Quinn does it once in a while. Sandi does it constantly. When has Sandi EVER been nice to Daria? And she had good reason to be in "Lucky Strike". She DID deserve an F. And, unlike Stacy (and probably Tiffany), blamed Daria and Quinn for not getting better than D-minus.
That's not nasty, it's pathetic self-doubt.
"Lucky Strike")
However other people liked Hemingway's work, I think it's clear he had great doubts about himself and his work. And tried to cover it up with macho bravado (and insults to others), much as Sandi covers up her feelings of inferiority with her fashion-and-dating obsession.
That's why Sandi's nastiness toward Quinn is not only despicable, but stupid. If you go by appearance, Sandi's taller, slimmer, and has finer features. But she *thinks* Quinn's better-looking and turns it into a self-fullfilling belief by turning her facial features into a permanent scowl.
If Sandi was butt-ugly, she almost might have some sort of excuse for being a bitch.
Superior = inferior? That does not compute.
My statement was rhetorical anyway. I don't think Sandi believes she's a superior student. I do think she truly hates anyone she sees as superior to herself in any way, at any thing. And that's despicable.
I'll have to pass on that. I haven't had the experience.
Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons Sandi's attempt to humiliate Quinn in "Lucky Strike" was far more despicable than any previous instances. After "Fat Like Me", Sandi DID owe Quinn big time. She was headed for Johanssen-hood, or suicide. No-one else was helping her, and she was too depressed to help herself.
I agree with that.
She might have. She clearly wasn't happy with the status quo, and loyal enough to Sandi not to try to assume the presidency against their agreement (I can't imagine Sandi doing the same if the situation were reversed). Getting Sandi to lose weight wasn't the sort of idea only Daria could think of; Quinn may easily have thought of it the next time she saw an exercise show on TV, or read a weight-loss article in "Waif".
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 27 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
For sure; that was part of her initial motivation, but in the later scenes she's doing it more to see whether Quinn will fall for it than anything else.
Yup, but there's a difference between being nice and being popular.
When she invites Daria, she tells her that she promised the other cheerleaders she wouldn't invite "any more really attractive girls," but she had presumably already invited Sandi and Tiffany at this point; Quinn overbalanced the ratio of 'really attractive girls.'
Good point.
Possibly; I thought it was more in keeping with her general lack of concern over other people's feelings.
Sure. Some of us just happen to like vindictive hateful bitches.
I agree; I'm just not sure it's entirely to Quinn's credit. Honestly, I'd rather have someone mistreat me because they didn't like me than because they didn't care enough about me to treat me decently.
That no one but Quinn visited Sandi demonstrates (in my opinion) how shallow the 'popular crowd' at Lawndale really is. Popularity isn't synonymous with being liked; Brittany likes Daria a lot, but she would never call her popular. Sandi is popular, and no one but Quinn can stand her.
Sure, but again, to judge from the scenes where they discuss boys, they rarely have to hunt around for someone to go out with; consider the scene in "Gifted" where Sandi discusses the plan to meet "Ricky and the guys" at Tower Point.
Sure. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just wanted to mention one of my favorite moments from that episode, and it seemed like a good time to shoehorn it in.
No, of course not (not by that point, anyway).
Sorry if I sounded like I was denying it! No, Ms. Griffin's nasty, all right. 'Sokay with me; I like nasty.
When he tells Jane that since she's a sports star "it's not so cool to be hanging around with...you know, losers," he crosses the border into Sandi- land, in my opinion.
Actually, the subject of smart people comes up infrequently in Fashion Club scenes, for some strange reason.
She handed over $10 for advice in "The Misery Chick," tho' I suppose that doesn't really count.
Sure; Sandi assumed that Daria was showing favoritism to her sister, and vice versa. Sandi's nasty; she thinks the worst of people.
I agree about Hemingway; that's why I brought up Ben Jonson, who so far as I can tell had no doubts at all about his work and how great it was. On the other hand, I forgot an interesting clue that supports your point of view: in "The Story of D," when the Clubettes are trying to think of fundraising ideas, there's the following exchange:
Quinn: Why don't we do what we do best? Sandi: Quinn, no one is going to pay us to eat carrot sticks.
It sounds less like sarcasm and more like Sandi's inability to think of anything they can do better than eating carrot sticks (her willingness to go along with Quinn's idea about the newsletter, and her reaction to its failure, also indicate considerable insecurity on her part). I believe I was too dismissive of your argument; my apologies.
I'm not sure if she thinks Quinn's better-looking, but then I wouldn't say she has a permanent scowl, either, although she certainly scowls a lot more in later episodes than in earlier ones (in "Road Worrier," for instance, she doesn't scowl at all).
Wouldn't be much point, though, since she wouldn't be president of the Fashion Club in the first place.
Superior student = inferior social skills. No, it doesn't compute. This is the Fashion Club we're talking about.
Possibly; but I hope she's not *quite* that bad. After all, if she truly hates jocks, how would she have learned about the WNBA draft system? (I couldn't tell you how it works.) Sandi's hateful, but every once in a while there's a suggestion that there might be more to her than that.
And I wouldn't wish it on you, believe me.
I agree - Sandi was comparatively nice to Quinn in "The Story of D" and she backslid badly in "Lucky Strike." Sandi and Quinn provide a textbook example of a "love-hate relationship." (The saddest thing about Quinn's 'assistance' to Sandi in "Fat Like Me" is that Sandi looked fine with the extra weight, and if Quinn had been able to deal with that she might have helped Sandi make a real breakthrough instead of bringing her back to the starting point.
Well, Jane used a little psychological torture on her when she was obviously wavering, so I don't think you can give her full points for that.
Daria didn't come up with the idea, though; she would have been just as satisfied if Quinn had dumped Sandi and gone back to the Fashion Club - either way, she would have won the bet with Jane. Quinn *might* have come up with the idea on her own, but that would have required her to put someone else's welfare above her own, and so far she's shown very little skill or inclination to do that.
And iirc, Tom joined in the act when Daria tormented Quinn about those joint cemetery plots. Definitely a funny moment! :-)
And I think Helen asked why Daria would screw with Quinn's head. Daria said it all -- "Who wouldn't?" (I think that's what she said.)
Linda definitely is a bad influence on Sandi, * that * I'll agree with! I think we can also draw the conclusion that Sandi is so afraid of being used that she's willing to use others.
<snip>
Yes, but don't forget, "Pinch Sitter" was in the first season, when Quinn was at her worst. Still, she's definitely great when it comes to breaking it off with guys, and Sandi's not far behind, I suspect. I don't know if Tiffany dumps guys or guys dump her, while I suspect guys dump Stacy more than she dumps guys.
And I think Brittany's concept of fidelity is slightly less inflexible; I read the transcript of "The Lab Brat" where Upchuck took a picture of Brittany making out with an Oakwood quarterback (of course, she'd temporarily broken up with Kevin at that point).
<snip>
However, by the time Jane asked "have you gone completely utterly mad?", Daria had worked extra hard to convince Jane that she had no interest in Tom (even if Daria's actions later said otherwise), and besides, I saw a small smile on Daria's face when Jane asked that question.
When Tom asked, "Are you crazy?" and Jane said, "I don't know. Am I?", the circumstances were different. Jane was shaken and hurt (understandably), and she really didn't know if Tom had been dating her all that time just to get to Daria due to her confusion. And her tone of voice showed her confusion, too.
No, she isn't. And I don't think even the strongest Quinn defenders would say she's human yet. I think she has a stronger capacity for human feelings than Sandi (thanks to having Helen as a mother as opposed to Linda), but Quinn needs more maturity for her to develop compassion, and she still has a ways to go in that department.
She's definitely confused. Nothing that happened before ILAP, at the outside, could be interpreted as Tom "getting to" Daria.
And after that, Tom could easily have broken up with Jane after the Jane-Cam or Gummi-Bear incidents.
She may have a ways to go, but I wouldn't say she's sub-human. She not Charles Manson. As little as I think of Sandi (as you know if you've been following this thread :-) ), I don't think Sandi's Charles Manson either. Though when Mark said that Sandi has leadership ability, I was tempted to point out that so did Manson (comparing Sandi to Hitler would invoke Godwin's Law, of course :-) ).
Even though Daria prompted Quinn to help Sandi lose weight in FLM, I don't think it would have worked if Quinn didn't have a lot of compassion for Sandi (and if you have compassion for Sandi, you HAVE COMPASSION). Quinn even frowned at Stacy and Tiffany earlier, when they were so gleeful as hearing Sandi had resigned. And she scolded Stacy for using the word "fat" to descibe Sandi (Stacy's resort to politically-correct euphemisms was hilarious, I thought).
And Quinn could have been WAY harder on Sandi in "Lucky Strike". Not to mention sitting on those pictures of Sandi in braces for who knows how long.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 27 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
The fact that they didn't break up after the Jane-Cam incident suggests to me that he was still trying fairly hard to make it work at that point. Either that or he didn't have as bad a reaction to getting fan mail from convicts as I would have.
It's been done; one of the alter egos on the MTV website shows the Club decked out in totalitarian gear, with Sandi wearing classic SS-officer black (and a cigarette-holder and monocle!). Stacy looks awfully cute in her Soviet gear. Also, Daria compared the FC to the Khmer Rouge in "Too Cute."
For sure. Sandi broke down and cried in Quinn's arms; deep down they care about each other (*very* deep down, in Sandi's case). Quinn could actually help Sandi a lot more if she would confront her openly instead of playing games; having someone she genuinely cares for confront her on her heartlessness might be the shock she needs.
That was great. I also liked Stacy's idea for a future career for Sandi - driving around the country in a trailer as the fashion apostle to the overweight.
Well, you don't want to give up valuable blackmail material like that unless you absolutely have to.
True -- however, there's an alternate possibility: Tom may simply have been trying to make the relationship work. However, given Jane's understandable confusion, it's no wonder she didn't think that Tom might've been trying to make the relationship work and that was why he didn't break up with her earlier.
<snip>
No, neither Quinn nor Sandi are Charles Manson. They're just very shallow and immature, and Sandi's mean to boot. And yes, Quinn was comparatively nice to Sandi. She's just got a ways to go in maturity (though not so much in terms of compassion).
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 27 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d
Yes, that was priceless. And then a moment later when Quinn says "Hi Jeffy...Lube," that was another great moment. (I never felt sympathy for Jeffy before this ep, but imagine being known as "Jeffy Lube" for the rest of your life!)
I think that's a safe bet.
I think that's another safe bet, considering the ferris wheel scene in "Fair Enough," among others. As for Tiffany, it's not clear whether she herself knows whether she's the dumper or the dumpee in any given relationship. Just thinking about trying to have a relationship with Tiffany is enough to make my head hurt.
Brittany's not pure, by any means, but she genuinely cares about Kevin, as was shown in her scene with the contemptible Tommy Sherman. (If *anyone* ever deserved to be crushed to death by falling goalposts...)
Sure...I didn't actually think Jane was serious at that point, I was really using that example as an excuse to bring up the other exchange, which is one of my favorite "Daria" moments.
Terrific voice acting from Wendy Hoopes. She's one of those people it's hard to overpraise.
Well, since I identify with Sandi, I hope she has some capacity for human feelings (I like to think I do, after all). What Sandi needs, in my opinion, is someone who likes her (and whom she likes), but won't put up with being treated like an inferior being - that's what eventually broke me out of my bad habits.
That's what was so disappointing about Sandi in "Lucky Strike". For a while, it looked like she had really changed after "Fat Like Me", but it's so obvious she's completely back to her old ways. If that didn't change her, what can?
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 28 May 2001:
S P O I L E R - S p a c e - r e t a i n e d -
Amused, indeed. And the animators used his goofy appearance to great effect when Quinn informs him that they need to discuss joint cemetery plots. Considering how basic the characters' faces are, they have a truly impressive range of expressions.
I do think that - sorry if I didn't make myself clear; I thought you nailed it. I was just adding a comment on how well Wendy Hoopes was able to bring that out.
I noticed another small but great moment when I was rewatching "One J at a Time": Helen is talking to Daria about Jake and mentions that he's not the easiest person to understand - Daria says "I understand him" and Helen says "You do?" Wendy Hoopes manages to make Helen sound surprised, impressed, and concerned simultaneously. Wonderful!
Sure; so did I. As it happens, though, I got lucky - someone that I liked liked me enough to make the first move. That was almost twenty years ago, now, and we're still together, so sometimes things really can work out!
I think it's interesting the other three have never asked themselves that question.
In several eps, the FC girls have mentioned that they make fun of other girls' "unfashionable" clothes. We've never seen how other girls react to that.
< fanfic mode >
INTERIOR. DAY. HALLWAY AT LAWNDALE HIGH, BESIDE THE LOCKERS.
Sandi, Stacy, Tiffany, and Quinn, while walking down the hall, encounter a GIRL WEARING HORIZONTAL STRIPES. The stripes are on a sweater, one of the colors of which matches her skirt. She is getting some things out of her locker.
SANDI: Well, well, look what we have here! Horizontal stripes! Pu-leeze!
QUINN: I'm counting two primary colors in the daytime.
STACY: This is all so wrong.
TIFFANY: I would look just aw-ful in hori-zon-tal stripes.
GIRL WEARING HORIZONTAL STRIPES: Yeah, sure, Sandi! Like I would dress to impress the most conceited girl in the school and her three airhead friends.
GIRL WEARING HORIZONTAL STRIPES angrily slams shut her locker and stalks away.
SANDI (indignant): Me, conceited? What can she possibly be talking about?
TIFFANY: I am so offen-ded.
STACY: She said we were stupid. It takes intelligence to keep track of all these rules. (anxious) I'm not stupid, am I?
QUINN: No, Stacy, you're not stupid. Who cares what unpopular girls think of us?
</ fanfic mode >
Exactly. At the bottom of Sandi's crummy behavior is, she insecure and therefore envious of everyone else's achievements.
Wild-eyed conspiracy theorists insist that on Wed, 23 May 2001 10:50:48 GMT, Steve Cross wrote:
Something I noticed as a general trend in sitcoms as the age is that the villians/jerks reform or become more humanized. And this undercuts the comic potential of the show, contributing to a show's decline.
Major case: M*A*S*H and Maj. Houlihan. She started out as a hardass martinet and ended up as a pretty nice person.
Now I'm picturing the Sandi Underground as some sort of SLA-style paramilitary group. But how do you properly accessorize fatigues, camos, and ninja outfits?
She sure acts stupid too often! Part of the problem is that she's been acting stupid too long it's hard to get rid of old habits, and part of it is her choice of friends, as you noted.
They probably didn't think she really wanted a steady boyfriend. As for the three J's, they may have been there partly for convenience, partly because they were so blindly loyal they'd do anything for her, and partly because Sandi was really pushing her to choose quickly!
I must say, I definitely liked the episode. It had some really funny moments. And yes, Jake is a big but nice kid at heart, since he released that captive squirrel. Speaking of Jake, I was pleasantly surprised when the dinner didn't turn out to be a complete disaster -- I was kind of afraid that would happen, and even though it would've been funny to watch, it would've been painful for Daria.
I only caught glimpses of B&B and was promptly repelled by them. I don't think I want to imagine what they (or even Sandi and Tiffany) might've done to a captive squirrel.
Initially, I had somewhat mixed emotions about the ending. I was glad Jake was having a great time, I liked seeing the male bonding, and it was definitely amusing, but at the same time I felt sorry for Daria because he completely forgot about her. However, maybe it was time for Tom to do something wild and crazy, since you mentioned that he was rather stodgy in previous episodes (or at least didn't have much opportunity to be wild-and-crazy in previous episodes). Besides, it was fun.
I think Quinn was so determined to prove her maturity that she became an easy victim for Daria and Sandi.
I know! That scene where Daria (with Tom's aid) tormented Quinn was priceless! I was cracking up! :-D
You know -- that may be why she was trying to prove her maturity -- because Daria's letting her know she wasn't stupid may have caused her to realize she had the potential to be more than she is at this moment, so she was trying to make up for lost time.
No, it wasn't mature or deep at all! That proves she still has a long way to go in being mature. She's definitely not ready to have a steady boyfriend.
The dinner wouldn't have fallen apart at the end if Helen would turn off her damn cell-phone and use an answering machine.
Someone needs to bond with Eric and get him to spend some evenings at a go-kart track.
Well, I suppose Daria DID want Tom and Jake to get along. Tom kinda overdid it a little. Whoomp! There it is! :-)
Jeffy left Quinn behind, too. Maybe he's not as pathetically devoted to Quinn as he appears. In "Daria Dance Party" he and Joey and Jamie chose big-screen football over Quinn.
Yeah -- anything to keep him from calling Helen at the most inopportune times. And Helen should get an answering machine, too -- my parents have one at home because they tend to get calls at supper time (they're real estate agents). Actually, I was pleasantly surprised that the dinner didn't fall apart because of Jake, since Daria had that fear that it would.
Daria did want Tom and Jake to get along, and I think Tom DID try to get along with Jake -- one of his lines to Daria suggested that. In that case, Tom must have overdid it.
I think the three J's are usually pathetically devoted to Quinn, but there are times when they aren't so devoted to her (or maybe they just get complacent those times).
In "Daria Dance Party" they turn her down rather coldly when she asks them to be her dance commitee, and then are among the few who go to Sandi's rival party.
It made me wonder if their "pathetic devotion" may sometimes include just a bit of hamming it up for Quinn's benefit. Although I do think they actually like Quinn, and more sincerely than guys like Skylar and Corey.
Well, I think they sincerely like Quinn, but maybe you're right in thinking they ham up the pathetic devotion part for Quinn's benefit -- at least at this point. Maybe at the beginning it was genuinely pathetic.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 22 May 2001: S P O I L E R - S P A C E - C A M O U F L A G E
I thought it was excellent - good character writing and hilarious jokes.
Well, either that, or all men are crazy, but on the same wavelength. (Why the hell were the Sloanes storing wheat thins in their basement?)
Only if the squirrel drew an unflattering caricature of them. (And considering the FC was panicked by a poodle dragging a stick across a fence, I don't think they'd even want to get near a squirrel.)
I don't think it was so much that he was stodgy as that he was never shown in a situation where go-cart riding would have been appropriate. Don't forget where Daria and Jane first met him - I doubt if very many stodgy people go to clubs where Mystik Spiral is playing.
I thought that was fairly convincing; Quinn was trying to do something she'd never done before, had no real concept of, and was terrified of failing at; she couldn't really risk the possibility that they were just screwing with her. I thought the parallel between Sandi's treatment of Quinn and Daria's was interesting, though; they were both consciously manipulating her with ulterior motives, and they were both trying to get her out of the way, albeit for different reasons. If anything, Daria was meaner than Sandi! (And notice that Tiffany and Stacy went along with Sandi without a hint of dissent - they may like Quinn, but it looks like they also see her as a rival.)
Yes, but she had mixed motives in both cases; she applied herself to her studies in IIFY partly to impress David, and she studied for the test in 'Lucky Strike' partly to get back at Sandi for insulting Daria. She's smart, but she's not what you'd call bookish. What I thought was most interesting in this episode was her concern over what _Helen_ thinks of her, which is something she's shown very little of in the past.
Oddly enough, there's one up now. (And who the hell votes in the weekly polls, anyway? 50% picked Pizza Forest? No way!)
Even there, he looked rather out of place. And we haven't seen him in a place like that since.
I'm surprised Sandi would mention the WNBA. Remember in "See Jane Run" when she said she thought girls should date jocks, not be jocks. WNBA players DO get "all sweaty"!
M Man
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Daria: Oh, that's great. The toast is cold. What tales of nothing will unfold here on this same old - this same old morning in the 'burbs.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Mark Whickman" did write in news:9egsj9$sa5$[email], on the date of 23 May 2001: W h a t - h a p p e n e d - t o - S P O I L E R - S P A C E ?
See "Fat Like Me" - in that ep she wears a cap when she's swimming. They haven't done any follow-up with regard to swimming, but that doesn't mean she's given it up - notice that her first suggestion to Quinn regarding boyfriends was Craig, because his family has a pool. (Yes, I'm reading way too much into that, but the cool thing about Daria dialogue is that you _can_ read way too much into it!)
(The scary thing about Daria dialogue is the personal references. Remember the conversation about poor color-blind Mark? Well, my name's Mark, and I'm color-blind. No lie. I'm an offscreen presence on _Daria_ and I didn't even know about it!)
-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus would rather date Sandi than Quinn anyway
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 23 May 2001: W h a t - h a p p e n e d - t o - S P O I L E R - S P A C E ?
Did you think he looked out of place? I thought he just looked like his usual self. (And they've done very few scenes at clubs since that episode - the only one I can recall offhand was in 'Is it Fall Yet?') I don't think Tom is stodgy so much as amused, most of the time; consider his behavior at the homecoming parade - it was his idea to hop on a float, and he just went and did it (not unlike running out into the yard with Jake and Jeffy, come to think of it).
Well, since she now knows that an athletic regimen can lead to weight loss, perhaps she feels differently...
He didn't jump the float with quite the gleeful abandon he showed in "One J at a Time". And, yes, he's definitely amused much of the time.
"Stodgy" may be too strong a word. Maybe "reserved"? He's never before abandoned his inhibitions like he did in "One J at a Time".
Well, it would be nice for that b---- to change positively in some direction.
It's a little unbelieveable, as Evan said in "See Jane Run", that girls born in the 80s would think that way. Don't they know that athletic women are considered sexy these days? Name a supermodel or actress with better legs than Steffi Graf!
He's probably more reserved, but I think that kiss in "Dye! Dye! My Darling" might be a case of Tom abandoning his inhibitions (maybe not on the order of what he did in OJAAT, but close enough thanks to those hormones).
Yes, but the sexiness of athletic women may not have been as evident at the time SJR was aired as it is now. Besides, attitudes change very slowly.
He looked rather calm throughout the kissing scene in DDMD.
Besides, I don't think he HAD any inhibitions to abandon in that scene. :-)
Well, "See Jane Run" wasn't so long ago - about three years? That was about a year-and-a-half AFTER Sport Illustrated included Steffi in its swimsuit issue, which had previously featured only models, not athletes.
Or, getting closer to home (for Sandi), Jodie's on LHS's tennis team. Is Jodie unfeminine or unattractive? Jodie's also the Homecoming queen!
I didn't know Steffi appeared in SI's swimsuit magazine before SJR aired.
In any case, I think most girls nowadays don't think it's unsexy to be athletic, but Sandi's mother might've thought that, and influenced Sandi that way.
Good point -- seems like when he finds something that he thinks would be really fun to do, he just goes and does it. Of course, he did suggest that they hop the float in "I Loathe a Parade" partly to look for Tad Gupty's parents, but he still found the whole thing amusing. It also indicates that he's impulsive at times, something that I've seen in other episodes (OJAAT, "Jane's Addition", and of course "Dye! Dye! My Darling").
Perhaps she does -- I suspect she had no trouble keeping her weight steady with no strenuous exercise until "Fat Like Me". Then having to stay home due to her broken leg changed everything for her.
The only exercise I can remember Sandi engaging in, before FLM, was yoga (or something similar) in "Monster".
In FLM, she was also going through boxes of chocolates, not her usual diet.
Sandi appears to have a fairly high energy level (not unusual for an adolescent) and, with her skimpy diet, that may be enough to stay slim. She also probably does a lot of walking, as do most of the characters. For such an upscale community, very few teens in Lawndale appear to have cars, or even regular access to them.
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:svuO6.36619$[email], on the date of 22 May 2001:
I G o t y o u n o w M r M o r g e n d o r f f e r !
That's true, and it's fairly sad. I hadn't really thought about that before. He was initially suspicious of Trent (in "Pierce Me") but he was trying to bond with him by "Lane Miserables," although Trent's just not the bonding type. Seeing Jake, Tom, and Jeffy bond over a squirrel was both hilarious and touching.
Not only did I catch it, I've already filled out the first contest entry. The winner gets to appear as a drawing in the new movie. If there could be anything cooler than that, I don't know what it is.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Did you notice at the end of the quiz it gave a little more information on
Well I hope he wasn't raised in a bomb shelter and finally escapes to see the world ala 'Blast From The Past'
I think that in The Daria Diaries, there were letters from Jake to his father which mentioned his having a friend in military school, who later went AWOL. That's about it as far as friends in the military go.
That's probably why he tried to bond with Trent in "Lane Miserables", and managed to bond with Tom and Jeffy in this episode.
Another episode I have yet to see!
I hope this relationship turns out better for Jane as well.
I don't know that is is really spoiler material, but:
SPOILER for some trivial stuff I noticedin OJaaT:
Jake's Car: What is that symbol we see on the front of his hood? My first take was Dr. Strange's mystic symbol, only too symetrical. But that's Jake all over.
"Damn ASYMETRICAL AUTOMOTIVE DRAFTSMEN!"
Second take was an anarchy symbol, but again too neat. Need a flashback to Helen and Jake's hippie days (if the symbol is that old).
Seperately, note that there is a Lawndale *County*, as well as the city/town/township/village of Lawndale. More fodder for the "Where is Lawndale" thread. Of course, Lawndale may not be in Lawndale county. For example, Macon, Georgia is not in Macon County, Georgia.
Quinn has a poster of a combination Unicorn/Pegasus. An old gf of mine said this was a "Fegalus" IIRC. But I can't find confirmation of that on the Web. Some pages claim this is an "alicorn", buit other say that is just the word for a unicorn's horn.
And the go carts were numbered 5 and 23. The Law of Fives!