I'm sorry if I got a bit too nasty in responding to the bit about Daria, Ayn Rand, and the Libertarians, but it seemed to me to be not merely a political intrusion onto a mostly non-political newsgroup, but also a bunch of strung-together guilts-by-association (There's a semi-rape in _The Fountainhead_, and rape is evil, so all of Ayn Rand's writing is evil, so Objectivism is evil, so Libertarianism is evil, because Libertarianism is sorta similar to Objectivism? Please ...)
Actually, I thought you were doing very well. And Daria's political views are sorta on-topic, since she's at least dropped at few minor hints about them. Actually, I think she might best be described as a "contrarian".
Gee, not like any of the rest of us have ever done that! :-)
I may not be a nice guy, but I am also not a troll. I am a Daria fan and I read this group regularly.
Please note the following:
I didn't start the 'Atlas Shrugged' thread.
My original reply in the 'Atlas Shrugged' thread was about Daria, and was pertinant to the thread and to this Newsgroup.
I didn't seek you out, Jordan. You originally replied to me. You've continued to reply to me. All I've done is reply to you.
The tone of my posts is polite. You may not like my tone and you might disagree with my opinions, but that does not make me a troll. I've actually been very polite to you and I've tried to stay on-topic.
You have gone out of your way to "misunderstand" the points I *did* make. Go back and read my original points and all my clarifications addressed to you. My question was not about the portrayal of a rape scene in a Novel -- it was about Rand's JUSTIFICATION of that rape, which was entirely political. Rand said that some men have the political and moral right to commit rape. Simple as that.
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Do political discussions belong in this group? Yes, if handled politely. Daria lives in a social and political world. Some of her episodes touch on political issues. Many of her fans here in atd have expressed their personal political opinions in the past. While they have the right to do that and it does not particularly bother me, it does give me the right to reply with my own opinions if I want to.
By all means, everybody here read 'Atlas Shrugged.' I've read a lot of scary books -- Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, the Protocols of Zion, Ecotopia, the Turner Diaries, Lady Chatterley's Lover, Naked Lunch, Steal this Book, the Anarchist's Cookbook, Lolita ... all books that raise eyebrows when people see you reading them. Books are good. I do *not* care if anyone here reads and/or enjoys Atlas Shrugged.
* * *
I also think George W. Bush is an immoral, immensely stupid drunken ass-wipe that staged a civilian coup to become President. I think we have five old-time Spanish Fascists on the Supreme Court who smashed our Constitution to smitherenes to guarantee his success, when it appeared he'd fail after all. I think Daria would think so, too.
I also think that even Daria's Parents, and Jane, and Trent, and maybe even Tom, would think so too. In fact, if Lawndale is very much like the rest of the United States; MOST of the adults in Lawndale did not vote for Bush in the last election. Have a nice day.
And, because you _believe_ that this is what Rand said (I've read _The Fountainhead_, and I _do not_ recall her making this claim), you believe that a reader would logically reject every other thing that Ayn Rand wrote, whether or not these other things made sense or not, and proceed from this to reject Libertarianism (for no other reason than that some Libertarians liked Ayn Rand's writing), and then to reject modern conservativism (for no other reason than that some Libertarians are also conservatives)?
That's a mighty long chain of guilt-by-assocation to draw from one _fictional_ rape. It's a longer one than I'd care to draw for a _real_ one!
Would you be ok if sentiments this rude were expressed about Gore?
Incidentally, do you know what a "coup" is? Why do you consider a close election, in which some votes were disputed, to be the equivalent of a coup?
Please, present your evidence that they supported Franco.
The Constitution does not guarantee victory to a particular political party. Stop being such a sore loser.
I think your insertion of the name "Daria" in here is a rather pathetic attempt to try to claim that this is on-topic, when it is manifestly off-topic. If you're going to post off-topic, have the courage to do so openly -- don't pretend that you're still talking about this TV show or its characters.
Nor would they have voted for Gore. You're making the assumption that everyone who did not vote for Bush supported Gore. This is very demonstrably false. Some supported a third candidate, and some supported no candidate.
Strawman, strawman, strawman. You've argued at least a dozen times in two threads now, against this argument, which I never made. You obviously can't support your position and you can't answer my basic criticisms. Otherwise you would.
Read my first paragraph, quoted above.
Yup. If they did, I'd answer them. You'd be surprised at my answer.
I have done you a favor. I have NOT discussed what I think is wrong about Libertarian/Objectivism, because I don't think that discussion belongs here. Yes, I do think I know what a 'coup' is. It's what Southern Republicans and five members of the Supreme Court call an "Election." And a smart guy like you is defending it.
Actually, at least two of them did, openly. Scalia and Rhendquist. Rhendquist also supported Segregation and physically threw black voters out of precincts in Phoenix, Arizona. Read Vincent Bugliosi's latest book on the Supreme Court. Don't be dense.
By the way, do you know what Fascism as an ideology is?
* * * * *
... and THIS is why I bothered to answer this post. I ask serious questions and make serious statements and you answer with out-of-hand disparagement. Reeel logical. You are lucky I'm not going to use the word 'hypocracy' in this paragraph.
Let's try to respond to the statements made in the posts here, Jordan. It's called logic. If you have a personal opinion like this, then treat my statement about Daria as an opportunity to reply with whatever your own opinion is.
When you attack my motives personally instead of replying to the statement I made; I have to assume that you agree with me about Daria. Do you?
Where did I say that I was a Gore supporter?
No I'm not. I've made statements about Libertarians, Ayn Rand, the Presidential "Election," and Daria. I've said nothing about the Democrats or the Greens or the Libertarians.
* * *
As upset as you are over this; the fact is that Daria would not agree with Libertarianism or with Ayn Rand. This is based directly on her behavior in "Daria." Deal with it.
William Rehnquist (at least have the common courtesy to spell the gentleman's name right) never did any such thing. The current Chief Justice, a Phoenix attorney at the time of your alleged incident, was simply a Republican poll challenger who would check on the voting credentials of individuals on Election Day. This was done to insure that only registered voters would cast their ballots since fraud (such as voting tombstones, etc.) was rampant in Arizona during the 1960's. The overt act of challenging was completely legal under state law. When then Associate Justice Rehnquist was promoted to Chief Justice by President Reagan in 1986, the charges you made were introduced by a few ideologically driven individuals at Rehnquist's Senate confirmation hearing. Nothing was proven, except that the main witness against the Justice (I believe his name was James Brosnahan) had Far Left political inclinations and would do anything to keep Rehnquist out of the Center Chair. Rehnquist was subsequently confirmed by the Senate and has served his nation with distinction for the past 15 years.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:48:32 -0700, Love and Rockets wrote:
This is the kinda of crap I can't stand. If you want to have political views so be it. But don't try to legitimize them by attaching them to a fictional character when there's no evidence as to exactly how Daria feels, although it's pretty unlike it's such a cookie-cutter Democratic point of view. I would suspect Daria probably doesn't even have strong political views, and prefers to see the faults in any viewpoint.
And, for the record, the majority of adults in the United States did not vote for Al Gore either. No candidate won a majority of the votes.
Kyle The Todd Dunwoody of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs
Sole Member and President Of All Chapters DBFC Magic Number: 97
Indeed: on the evidence from the show, Daria's attitude towards politics would be a vague sentiment that "Dictatorship is bad" coupled with a more strongly expressed "Everyone in politics is corrupt, I'd be foolish to trust or identify with any faction." In other words, a combination of the normal American pro-democratic attitude with extreme cynicism towards people in politics.
I doubt that she likes Bush; and I doubt that she liked Clinton.
Exactly. That's part of the reason _why_ the election was so close that it took a month of argument to decide.
And, believe it or not, there is some krap that you post, that *I* can't stand. That is part of the deal here. You and the other eighteen young republicans here need to deal with opposing viewpoints with something more than disparagement and claims of offense. I'll be glad to be civil if you are.
Not a bad perspective. I almost agree with it. The fact is, that we *do* know enough about Daria's political senses, given that this is a newsgroup that can count how many pleated skirts are hanging in her closet, and whether xxx gave yyy the correct change after his game of three card monty.
I doubt that she likes Bush at all, given her statements about segregation and conformity a few weeks ago.
And for the record, this doesn't have anything to do with how Daria sizes up Bush's stands on issues she cares about, or on Bush's fitness for the job.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:50:57 -0700, Love and Rockets wrote:
Did you ever consider that I might not be opposed to your viewpoint? People in this country have been so trained to buy into the Democrats vs. Republicans battle that they treat it more like some sports team rivalry than anything else.
You voted straight-party ticket, didn't you?
The writers of the show have been very careful not to specify someting as simple as that. There are enough party shills on both sides who would be horribly offended to find out Daria felt one way or the other that the show is smart enough to avoid the whole shebang.
I'll agree in the sense that she distrusts all politicians. Although I suspect she'd have at least some admiration that while Bush is as much a corporate puppet as anyone who is likely to occupy the White House in the next 40 years, he manages to do it so shamelessly and still get away with it.
So why did you bring it up?
ROTFLMAO...
This is the kind of party shill stuff that never fails to crack me up. People are in such denial sometimes. I've met Republicans who won't admit Bush and Cheney are old oil buddies, and Democrats such as yourself who don't seem to realize the election is over.
And lord knows how many people who still are spraying their shorts over the result of this newspaper's unofficial recount, or that not-for profit group's. Can't we just accept that the margin of victory was smaller than the margin of error in the processes, and that we probably should have had contingency plans for such a thing, but didn't. And now we have one of the two ridiculously similar candidates we all knew we'd have to choose from, and an evenly divided congress to make sure he doesn't stray too far from the middle?
Kyle The Todd Dunwoody of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs
Sole Member and President Of All Chapters DBFC Magic Number: 97
I've got to admit, that I'm reluctant to enter into this discussion because first, it's based on people's personal beliefs, second, it's highly political, and third, the mud being slung is just a little thick.
Never having read Atlas Shrugged, and even more regrettably, having missed the Daria episode, I'm not qualified to comment on either of those two areas. While I'm not about to enter into a political debate over the Supreme Court or go head to head over Libertarian policy, I've got to remind everybody that this is a forum to discuss a cartoon, a simple animated cartoon.
I love Daria as much as the next person, maybe even a little more, but it is still a cartoon. There is no solution to world hunger, global warning, or drivers who don't use their turn signals contained within said cartoon.
Now I respect your right to get as deep as you like with you allusions (just to cut off criticism at the pass - allusion = historical reference), but please don't slog the mud in full group view.
Right now I have about 143 messages from this newsgroup in my inbox. Of those, 13 are directly titled Minor Apology. That's not counting the messages that are related to Atlas Shrugged, Ignore Bernie's racist comments, or Jodie is an uppity ... you know ....
I defend to the death your right to say this, I wonder at your lack of sense of reality, and to be honest, I'm laughing my ass off at all of you getting so worked up over Daria. How much do you want to bet that she'd roll her eyes and chuckle to?
But the phrase "testosterone slinging" isn't as catchy! :)
(Meanwhile, Tony Bleugh is returned as prime-minister in the UK on the lowest poll turnout since the end of WWII and refers to his party's victory as a "landslide". *sigh*)
I definitely would agree that she'd roll her eyes and chuckle. However, I suspect fans of any show aren't exactly known for their being able to separate reality from fantasy. Isn't the word "fan" short for "fanatic", after all? And what is a fanatic? Someone who has excessive enthusiasm and an often intense uncritical devotion towards something.
13 out of 143 is not bad. Look -- I don't read the threads where the Fashion Club gets an endless fantasy workout, and you don't have to read the threads where Daria's real-world one-liners get hashed over.
---
While I mostly agree with both of you, here are my caveats:
*) "Daria" plays with real-world themes. Some of those themes are social and political. Daria sometimes expresses herself in these areas. Discussing these expressions is relevant to this newsgroup.
*) Other people in this group are inclined to endlessly discuss the color of Trent's eyes, or whether Tiffany is ever going to discover her inner compassionate child. Is it fair for me to go to those threads and tell them that their diaphenous speculations are wasting my bandwidth?
... actually, I would never do that. They have the right to enjoy Daria however they want to. My personal solution is simple: I stop reading their threads when they cease to be interesting.
*) Frankly, some of the political bigotry expressed in this group is offensive to me. I will NOT let it go. If I see a post like that and the fancy strikes me, I will raise a question or two for the writer to answer: They need to learn that vilifying ideas or people with which they disagree is NOT acceptable behavior. Not everyone who reads this group is a member of the Young Republicans.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:48:32 -0700, Love and Rockets wrote:
I, for one, never thought you were
Nope, I did. I stated my intent in an earlier reply.
The "OT" at the beginning of the thread means, "off topic" and serves as a warning to those who are offended by off topic threads. Perhaps I should have lurked for a bit before jumping right back in as if the ton had never changed, but on most groups, this is acceptable behavior. And on this group, there was a time when the OT warning was redundant; most of it was OT.
Agreed.
Disagree. Your tone was not polite, it was riddled with lables and implied insults. And your attempts to stay on topic were misguided; that thread was very clearly an off topic thread.
This is an example of that which I would not consider a polite argument. To say he is immoral requires qualification. To say he is immensely stupid is an opinion that requires further explanation. To say he staged a civilian coup is a serious allegation that requires more attention than a simple assertation. To call him a drunken ass-wipe is, well, meaningless. What exactly is an ass-wipe? Are you implying that I might find him next to my toilet bowl? Creepy. ;p
1) you've interjected yourself into a discussion that didn't address you. You can hardly pretend personal involvement close enough to
The discussion was long over. Do you want to restart it?
3) If 'Off Topic' doesn't matter, then why was it brought up to me in the first place?
4) Since when was an 'On Topic' comment unacceptable in a so- called 'off-topic' thread?
5) If you think I was being impolite; then you obviously have no idea what 'impolite' really is on Usenet. Actually, I think you do. You're just raising the bloody shirt because it's easier than actually dealing with the idea, that I might actually not be a troll.
5) If you are an even-handed, objective commentator, then where are your posts castigating other members of this thread? I must have missed them.
Thank you for requoting me. It reads even better the second time.
... and it wasn't directed at Daria, or at any character, writer, artist of Daria, or at MTV, or at Jordan, or at any other person posting in this newsgroup. Since it wasn't personal and didn't attack "Daria," then why do you care?