videos

Hi ! The sounds of cynism are down. Is there another site offering the same type of content ?

On Thu, 11 May 2000 21:16:39 +0200, "Pierrick DANO" wrote:

All links are being switched over to use chaos.schizo.com and tech support has been contacted. Try again in 15 minutes using http://chaos.schizo.com/~orca/daria/

Damon Orca on #Stars!

[email] (Damon Domjan) wrote in :

<AMY MODE="ON"> Hi this is MTV calling can you tell me where you are illegally distributing our stuff so that we can come and bust you ? </AMY>

Phill.

Seriously, MTV _must_ have known about the SoC for months. Taking into account this and the vast number of fansites stuffed with pictures and soundbites they must be pretty tolerant. They probably think of it as free publicity, unlike Fox who seem to regard the serious fans of their programs as enemies,

In article , Michel Morton wrote:

I am hoping that this is not the beginning of a huge crackdown on Daria sites, ala Fox.

Sites where one can view whole episodes are, IMNSHO, a bit beyond the pale.

However, one of the things that is distressing about this incident is the verbiage of the lawyer letter that got sent to Pair.Com.

If this was an action directed only at a site that was illegally distributing whole episodes, it would not be so bad. But the descriptions in the letter could cover any number of other sites that don't illegally distribute whole episodes. Including my own, including Outpost Daria, including Lawndale City Limits, etc. etc. etc.

MTV Networks have been admirable in their restraint and laissez-faire attitude about Daria fansites. It would upset me greatly if this incident is an indication that their attitudes are changing.

News Corporation, through their Fox divisions, have been doing this for years, and have gained numerous enemies in fandom for their actions. On May 13th, fansites all over the world will "go black" in protest of Fox's actions, actions which have added the verb "To Fox" and "Foxing" to the cybervocabulary of fandom.

If you are a Daria fan webkeeper, I strongly urge you to go to http://on.to/blackout/ and find out about Operation: Blackout. There is still time to join the protest.

--.\\<-H--

In article ,

And as I pointed out in another post they MTV, *DID* do this a few years ago with Beavis & Butthead sites.

But there is a demand for it, perhaps MTV could exploit that ? and maybe make some money out of it too.

Humm wonder how this extends to Outpost Daria's fan art section, I don't know enough about copyright law, but would sugest that the copyright on those pictures is with their respective artists and *NOT* with MTV, if this was the case then there is 0 they could do about them.

Ok so how about DarYa :) (evrybody here aught to get that if they don't what the hell they doing reading a.t.d :) ).

WTF do they mean by this ?????

Which I would imagine is a loss, since the SoC webmasters would have paid to have the webspace, and made 0 for each download, does this mean the MTV will pay them the money for the free advertising ????

I don't think there is any confusion in the marketplace ? SoC always announced itself as an un-official fan site, and I believe that they like Outpost, had a link to the official MTV site.

Though still a loss to the community, I can nevertheless understand it, after all as you say it is illeagal.

Yeah, though my Daria content is small I guess I'd better expect a letter from Demon, any time soon, especially considdering their recent cave in over a usenet article, where a UK cort ruled that an ISP *WAS* reposnible for the contents of usenet posts on it's server, even if not orriginally posted through that server.

Back to the bad old days eh ? yeah that would be a real shame and IMHO would alienate a lot of the real fans (such as us) MKH have you put this to Glenn ?? wonder how he feels, he'd probably be leagally obliged to reply with that tradidtional UK polotician's reply "no comment".

Ok will take a look, not that my site gets many hits but the more people that do this the more likley it is to have an impact.

Phill.

In article , [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

,

I know about that...one of my faves, www.thankyoudrivethrough.com got nailed during that crackdown.

MTV SHOULD take a tip from SoC and provide video-on-demand "Daria" episodes. It can be done...CNN has several shows set up as video-on-demand, including "Burden Of Proof". Both RealSystem and WiMP stream audio and video...people wouldn't necessarily get to capture the files to HD. If memory serves even QuickTime can be set up to stream without saving the file to HD. There are ways of making sure that people from countries who have not seen certain episodes in first run cannot get to them...Netscape, for example, prevented people not coming in from US or Canadian domestic hosts to download the 128 bit version of Navigator/Communicator.

I think the Counsel for MTV actually meant "depictions."

Glenn and I have corresponded about the subject, and he assures me that he will go to bat for fansites if a crackdown is in the offing. He has been very encouraging to fansites in the past, including my own.

Lawndale Commons is already blacked out as we speak, considering how many of our users are coming in from Europe and the UK.

Again, I think that probably MTV is only striking out at SoC because of the full-length episodes. I have not gotten any communication from MTV legal about my site yet, and hope it will not happen in the future.

Take care,
--.\\<-H--

ago

I recall the sites that MTV went after back in the days of Beavis and Butthead, were the sites that also had Pornography, I recall reading in "NetGuide" (Is that magazine still around?) that MTV didn't want Beavis and Butthead to be associated with Pornography. And no the irony was not lost my then 12 yearold mind. This would have been in 1995.

Would the webmaster of the "Sounds Of Cynicism" mind contacting me? I would like to download all the episodes and burn them to a CD.

FTP?, Gnutella?

On Sat, 13 May 2000 04:12:33 GMT, "Contentious Objector" wrote:

I'm afraid you'll have to get them somewhere else. MTVN has closed its file on me and I do *not* need them reopening it :)

Damon Orca on #Stars!

In article ,

Humm I don't actually recall the reason, I just rember there was a major crackdown.

Err pardon me for saying this, but if MTV are watching this group, then that's a pretty irrisponsible thing to say, after all want the MTV people knocking on your door ? Besides the SoC people now have a leagal order not to distrib the stuff, so if they did send you a copy they would be effectivly defying MTV's lawyers and could open themselves for all sorts of stuff, I doubt that they really want to go to jail over this.

Phill.

On Fri, 12 May 2000 19:18:48 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

That's *probably* the case, and hopefully will be the end of it. The wording in the fax they sent was rather broad, but it was also pretty obviously a form C&D letter.

While talking to their Counsel, I got the impression that they may take exception to any large archives of sounds/screen captures, so be sparing if you decide to use either.

Damon Orca on #Stars!

In article ,

Yeah, it's a rela shame as well, because judging by a.t.b&b there is still a fairly loyal following for B&B, but the web presence is much less than that for Daria, probably due in part to MTV's actions which is a dman shame.

Though if the data is coming into the computer then it can be captured, I believe the registered version of real player allows that, there is also (or was) a program called x-fileget, that would do that as well. Wouldn't supprise me if there was a similar program for quicktime, just cause the official client won't let you record doesn't mean nobody's will :) Which would of course discourage MTV.

Though with the internet being what it is, it only needs someone outside the US, to know someone inside the US, and erm 'do them a favor' if you know what I mean :)

Ahhh, then their lawyer ought to learn to spell :) (ok,ok, yes so should I but I'm not representing MTV...also it could have been an error in transcription also :) ).

Id' actuallt be kinda interested to see the full document sent to pair, but I guess that's not allowed.

That does in some ways supprise me, I would have thought he would have gone to a lawyer and asked 'should I comment on this' and been told 'no', which is I guess what would usually happen, does Glenn actually work directly for MTV ? or just on contract ? Actually the fact that he is on our side is probably going to be a major advantage.

Indeed.

No likewise, though as I said the Daria content on my site is pretty minimal, I still don't want any nasty letters.

Phill.

On 13 May 2000 12:23:48 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

Where's the problem? They don't prevent people from taping Daria with a VCR, either. Why is everything evil, once it's done digitally. In this case it's not even a lossy vs. lossless argument because the regular VCR is a lot superior in quality. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

Because everything digital is evil!

(Probably because some suit misunderstood the meaning of the term "wicked".)

-Shez.

In article ,

Yeah, I mostly agree with this, the problem as I see it is this, yeah fine I can tape it with my VCR, but it's a hell of a lot easier to pass on a copy of the real audio (or whatever) file, that it would be to pass on a copy of the video tape, and also somewhat less expensive (for me). Also they may not be able to prevent you from taping the thing, but that doesn't mean they like you doing it, and also, cirtainly under UK law, you are supposed to delete said copy within 14 days.

Phill.

Phill Harvey-Smith of Federal

I think that's US law: AFAICT the UK limitation was 4 weeks, but I'm pretty sure that limitation was later abandoned as unenforceable. The principle is still there that home videotaping is only for the purposes of time-shifting broadcasts, and you are supposed to erase the tape after viewing, but there is no longer any fixed period by when you should must have viewed the tape, so in practice you can keep a video recording indefinitely and in the unlikely event that you're challenged just say you haven't watched it yet. Charging people to view your tapes is a definite no-no though.

-Shez.

In article ,

Humm I was always lead to believe that it was 14 days, I'm not a lawyer tho :)

Ah but is it that there really isn't a fixed period, or just that it's so frequently ignored that nobody enforces it any longer.

Yeah right :) Still I suppose that at least notionally in this country you are innocent until a confession is bea^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H prooven guilty :)

Indeed, or copying it for your mates to watch, so I suppose would be lending it to said mates.

Phill.

On Sun, 14 May 2000 21:57:58 +0100, Shez wrote:

Nope-- never heard of any US laws regarding home videotaping. It doesn't really sound like a very bright idea for a law, even by US standards. (Although it does have the bureacratic reek of Europe...) Besides, it's just about as close to unenforceable as you can get for this country, both practically and constitutionally. I can imagine the Department of Videotaping Enforcement raiding American homes at this very moment...

"Open the door, Grandpa! We know you've got a complete collection of 'Murder, She Wrote' on tape! You're gonna be doin' some haaaard time, old man!"

Nah, it'll never happen here.

rich.

Jane: You know, I don't know why people say we have a bad attitude.

Daria: Screw 'em.

On Mon, 15 May 2000 15:48:22 -0400, paperpusher wrote:

You're right, having a complete collection of "Murder, She Wrote" isn't against the law but maybe it should be. ;-)

The US law states....MUST NOT be used for financial gain....as long as you don't make any money off it, and you pay for the tape, you CAN LEGALLY GIVE it away!!!! That IS the Law.......In the good ole USA don't know about you folks who don't use real money, like pounds :-)

Nope-- never heard of any US laws regarding home videotaping. It

On Sun, 14 May 2000 21:57:58 +0100, Shez wrote:

In Germany, a few cents from every empty tape and every recorder sold go to an organization that compensates content creators. In consequence you are allowed to make a tape-recording for strictly personal use for an unlimited amount of time. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

A dman good idea too, does that apply to only tape or if you say copy a live broadcast onto a CD so that it will not wear out as quickly ?

Phill.

Is there a blank media levy in the UK? There was talk of one a few years back but I'm unsure it it ever appeared, but in any case it's effectively a recording industry tax on people who record their own material.

Michelle Klein-Hass <[email] writes:

I agree. One of the arguments in favour of turning a blind eye to fansites using copyright material is that it's free advertising for a show. But if a site is also carrying the show itself then that argument falls down as MTV can argue that it's in competition with them for viewers and will thus hurt their revenues.

In practice though I think the quality of realvideo is sufficiently bad that people would only use it to watch episodes they couldn't access via their TV sets, and I know that whenever I've had the opportunity I've gone on to watch on TV those episodes I'd already seen on realvideo, as there is really no comparison either in sound or picture quality.

I even went out and bought the video to see episodes I'd missed on C5 rather than download the realvideo versions, though I probably won't bother buying the videos in future since they don't feature the original soundtrack which I feel is important to the feel of the show. This more than anything is likely to hurt MTV's own merchandise sales - the fact that off-air tapes are better than the retail ones due to the different music soundtracks means that people will be inclined to trade pirate tapes rather than buy MTV's inferior official ones.

-Shez.

In article ,

I suppose they could argue that.

Yeah I used them from the old Daria Warehouse to see season 1 as I only started watching at "Quinn The Brain", so I had missed over half of what had come before.

Yeah that's cause MTV would have to pay for the rights to use the music on a Video, which is effectivly re-distribution of the music, rather than a 1 off broadcast which is a different thing (you can watch a video whenever you please, but you can only watch the boadcast when the TV channel transmits it). The problem is the licence to use the music in the video versions is I believe a lot more expensive. Actually pretty much the same thing has happened withe the Beavis & Butthead videos where the official ones for the most part have the music videos cut out. (ok there is 1 maybe 2 that do have a couple of videos on, but this is out of about 10 or 12 that are available). Yes I have also bought the one video that has been released in PAL, and I keep thinking about buying th other depite being in NTSC.

Phill.

"Phill Harvey-Smith" wrote in message news:8fju6o$pp$[email]...

_Disenfranchised_ has now been released in PAL format in Australia (thanks to Boolean for verifying this information), but not in the UK.

It looks as though it'd cost about GBP13 to order it from Oz.

My video page (follow link from URL below) has been updated!

Quite why the second video hasn't been released in _Daria_'s biggest overseas market[1] is difficult to understand.

Martin.

[1] See the latest stats at URL: http://www.sylvesternet.freeserve.co.uk/members/daria/

[email] (Martin Sylvester) wrote in :

Dunno perhaps we should mail eMpTV and ask them ? Right anyway thanks for the info, might order it then :)

Phill.

On Fri, 12 May 2000 19:18:48 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

<snippage>

As is my lil' site. Bits of it still work, though, just so long as you know where to look. E.g., the Listings page is still up... somewhere... but I'm not making it easy to find it. ;)

I haven't heard anything from them as well, but then again, I'm not really doing that much in the way of "borrowing" content.

But you know, production companies could make everyone breathe easier if they set up a fansite program to "bring them in from the cold," if you will. Give the fans a set of *reasonable* guidelines to follow (that is, don't force them onto your own ISP, or otherwise hamstring their ability to express themselves), give them access to some stills, maybe toss them the odd exclusive bone (like an interview or CHAT SESSION or something), and otherwise just let them be. If you let them grow a little like this, then soon you'll have an army of fanatics behind you the likes of which would make any network suit threatening your show shudder in fear. ;-)

Like that'll ever happen. :P These companies have too much $$ riding on so-called "interactive" sites (many of which... uh, what's that word again? ... oh yeah-- suck) and exclusive.net.deals with other companies to keep them from realizing that the only folks makin' money on the net are pornographers and eBay. There's still a TON of $$ to made in TV, and ratings are much more important than hits for now. As for the net, it's still not ready for prime time. But right now in prime time, it's May Sweeps, and if I had a show on, I'd be dying for every last little scrap of pub and buzz I could generate. But then again, what do *I* know? ;-)

for now, rich.

Daria: Sorry, with all of this animation, I thought I was on Nickelodeon for a moment.

Jane: You wish.

Daria: Tell me about it.

In article , [email] wrote:

What I am thinking of is maybe we should draw up a Fansite Code Of Ethics with the idea of coming to terms with the various media gatekeepers. It's not the production companies that have the power here...it's the big media companies that HIRE production companies who hold ultimate power here.

1.) Pledge to not charge money nor run for-profit banners on your site. Non-paying banner exchanges are fine, but no for-profit ads. This would also ban fansites from participating in affiliate programs like those run by Amazon.Com. Of course, banners that free hosts force you to run on your site are an exception.

2.) Fake porn shots claiming to represent nude pictures of a given star and fan art showing cartoon characters naked or in sex acts is of course verboten.

3.) Full episode length video clips are also verboten, since they cross the line from fair use to outright piracy.

I think that if fansites hold to such a simple, non-ambiguous code of ethics, we could all get along and nobody would have to go in and "Fox" sites. From what I can tell, most of the sites that companies other than News Corp/Fox have gone after violate these simple rules.

The corporate-sponsored, 'sanitized for your protection' fan communities are not a satisfactory solution, as they do not allow for creative content. Creative content like fan art and fanfic are covered by the Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music (2 Live Crew) decision of the Supreme Court as free speech protected under the First Amendment. No Fansite Code Of Ethics should "give back" this right.

Anyway, I'd like to hear people's views of setting up a Fansite Code Of Ethics.

--.\\<-H--

On Sat, 13 May 2000 09:40:22 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

Well, actually in the case of the BtVS sites, WB (who airs the show) had no problem with the fan sites. In this case it was the production company (yes, FOX) that had the sites nuked. That was the example foremost in my mind when I was writing that.

Yeah, these are fair rules, but the thing is, a "code of ethics" won't do you any good unless the media conglomerates also agree to it as well. That's why I was more interested in more of an official-type program, because getting the laws changed just isn't going to happen here. There's waaay too much money on keeping things the way they are. Instead, it'll have to fall to the people to get together on a case-by-case basis.

Yeah, the sanitized "fan communities" aren't much of a solution to the problem. My idea was more of an affiliation program set up with the shows. There wouldn't be any requirements for "must carry" info-- just that the operators can register with the network, and the network will let them use whatever stills they want for their site. Come to think of it, it'd be more of a "hey, if you can get a good screen cap, go right ahead" sort of a thing, rather than "here are the 3 GIFs that you are allowed to use on your site" sort of thing. And hey, maybe they could send some info/content out to the fansites as well, so that the fans can stay informed about what's going on with the show. Sort of a nice "manus manum lavat" sort of deal. Because let's face it-- NOBODY can get all of the info into one site-- it just isn't cost/time effective to keep up with it all. Better to have stringers help cover the story, to use a journalistic metaphor. ;-)

Well, I'm all for a Code of Ethics, like I said-- I just want to make sure that the companies are going to adhere to it as well. ;)

rich.

"Unethical is only two letters away from ethical..." -- Paul Michael Mercurio

On 12 May 2000 19:47:25 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

The copyrights do of course lie with the respective artists but see the next point:

It's not only the name "Daria" that is a trademark of MTV but the character as a whole so MTV could take legal action because of fan art. The only thing that could stop them is the fact that (at least where I live) trademark laws only apply in a business context. However, courts sometimes decide that a service like a website that addresses a large anonymous audience is automatically a business. It's important to note that making profit is not a requirement for a business. So while artists themselves don't have to fear legal consequences, the persons who run fan art websites are not immune to trademark related lawsuits.

MSB

p.s.: I'm not a lawyer so don't take my word for it.

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

I'm not sure about that, I have a feeling that a character itself can't be copyrighted, only the things the character has appeared in. Bear in mind that ideas cannot be copyrighted, only actual works can. I'm pretty sure that people have written books etc. in which other people's characters appeared. As long as you avoid having that character doing or saying anything they did in any of the original creator's works you may be ok.

There is a problem with fan art though that if it's any good it will look like the original character, in which case it might be taken as a breach of copyright: a slavish copy would probably be considered much the same as a photocopy etc. However to the extent it's different you might try to claim subsidiary copyright for your own artistic interpretation of the character, which is probably what the US Supreme Court had in mind. (Though a US court judgement wouldn't protect non-US citizens who created fan art.) My understanding of subsidiary copyright though is that it requires consent of the original copyright owner to be making a copy in the first place. However if you obtained that, you could then split any royalties you obtained with them, keeping a proportion to reflect your own artistic input. In other words, the less your creation looked like Daria the better, from a copyright and income point of view! Being a bad artist could work in your favour here!

-Shez.

The people who have the copyright for Casper the Friendly Ghost did try to sue the makers of Ghostbusters over the ghost logo. They lost as the judge rules there was essentially only one way you _could_ draw a cartoon ghost.

On Sat, 13 May 2000 23:36:07 +0100, Shez wrote:

*SIGH* When will people finally stop confusing COPYRIGHT and TRADEMARK. It's NOT the same. Has never been and will never be. I'm talking about TRADEMARKS here (you can tell by the fact that I use the word "trademark" in the sentence you quoted). A character is a trademark (even when not registered) and that gives the owner of the trademark the right to block other people from using the character. A character itself is not copyrighted and cannot be copyrighted because it is an abstract concept and only concrete works are copyrighted. But copyright doesn't matter in the fan art question anyway. Having a copyright does not give you any blocking rights except regarding this one concrete work that is copyrighted. Copyright matters in the RealVideo question. And unlike trademark laws, copyright laws affect normal people.

To sum it up:

Daria, the character as an abstract concept is a TRADEMARK Pinch Sitter, the episode as a concrete series of frames is COPYRIGHTED

It is LEGAL to use Daria, the character in a non-business context, even without permission. It is NOT LEGAL to use Pinch Sitter, the episode in any context without permission.

MSB

p.s.: The above is a simplification. Under certain circumstances you are allowed to use copyrighted material even without permission. This is usually the case in freedom-of-speech/ freedom-of-art/ freedom-of-science/ freedom-of-press related contexts.

A collage made from Daria stills (which are copyrighted material) would qualify for the above and MTV would likely lose a lawsuit against an artist doing said collage, at least in a country that values freedom of artistic expression more than commercial interests of big companies. I don't know if the US falls in that category, though.

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

[email] (Michel Morton) wrote in :

So why suddenley take it down now, seems strange that we have had a flood of 'where can I gget full episodes' posts followed by this.

So you don't rember the big purge of Beavis & Butthead sites a few years back, seems they havn't always had this attitude.

I suspect they just want to keep strict control on who produces what, so that they can have an effective monopoly position, and charge for stuff. I dunno perhaps I'm getting too cynical in my old age.

Phill.

May not be coincidental, though it could also be some people (e.g. me) wanting to see Season 4 episodes by the only means available to them. Though you really don't need to post 'please help me messages'. SoC is easy enough to find.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware they'd done that.