Hey there. Longtime lurker, first-time poster. And I have a question for y'all....
It seems that in fanfiction, or in general NG discussions, whenever Daria's religion is mentioned, it seems to me that it is just assumed she's Jewish or at least her family has Jewish cultural roots. (this is drawn heavily from Michelle H-K's fanfic, some general newsgroup comments, as well as a few other fanfics whose names escape me right now) SOOOO, I was wondering why many people think this way given that I can't find any reference in the shows or books to draw this conclusion, except perhaps the name Morgendorffer.
I never assumed this, though of course both the name and all the personalities of the family fit the stereotype. I don't think the Morgendorffers have been identified as being of any particular faith.
I think there was a discussion about this 4-5 months or so ago, and the way I see it, her family's religious background is ignored for a reason-- to avoid clouding up the waters with philosophical arguments about religion, when the real target of Daria is general social satire. While someone will invariably argue that religion is part of society, IMO by keeping Daria nonreligious (or at least not specifically religious) the focus can be kept on making fun of society without bringing all of the baggage that religion adds. (And it keeps various religious groups from declaring holy wars on MTV, too. <g>) (Well, I guess I should say religious groups that haven't already declared holy wars against MTV.)
Considering the discussion of Daria as iconograph, giving her a background of any kind other than Suburban would add too much depth, anyway. I think of her more as a symbol than as a character in that regard-- it's kind of like asking, "Is the Statue of Liberty Catholic, or is she a Hugenot?" It's not important-- she stands for liberty, as Daria stands for cynical, misanthropic intellectuals trapped in a society that praises appearance above all else, especially above substance.
HTH, rich.
Mr. O'Neill: Let's pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!
Daria: You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?
On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:13:32 GMT, [email] (paperpusher) wrote:
Hmm. As for this specific example, I can agree with you, but if you want to broaden the "Daria as a symbol" theory to encompass too much more, I may have to vehemently disagree (and I believe you all know I can disagree about as vehemntly as anyone). Perhaps that is a battle better fought in some other thread, though.
Kyle The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs
No, I don't think the "Daria as a symbol" idea should be any broader than I suggested. If you expand the concept too far, it would tear its gossamer wings and hit the ground with a ripe splat.
Does this mean we agree? Scary. ;-)
rich.
Jake: I love camping! I love it! ... Has anybody seen my pants?
Daria's whole family is the perfect example of a "sub-church" called "non-practicing".
I've met "non-practicing" Cathlics, "non-practicing" Jewish people, and "non-practicing" protestants. It simple means that yes, the Morgendorffers may be Jewish, but you'd never know it, because they're "non-practicing".
Quite possibly. Incidentally, the inference from the name would only apply to Jake's side of the family, I forget Helen's maiden name but I don't think it was anything you'd think of as "Jewish". Interfaith marriages are exceedingly common in America.
Well there might be a clue in the fact that Helen's niece had a ceremony done by a minister (specifically NOT a Catholic priest nor a justice of the peace), so it's at least probable that Helen is of some generic Christian tradition in her upbringing.
It seems at the very least improbable that Helen's sister's family has any particular religious convictions, so the chance that they converted to some other denomination than Helen (at least to me who has to deal with interfaith couples all the time) can be reasonably ruled out. This is only probable, but it's more than completely indeterminate. The same can be said of Helen--so if she grew up generically Christian, it is improbable that she had the conviction to convert to Judaism. Impossible she's Jewish? No. Improbable? Yes, at least a little.
The "non-practicing" comments are extremely on the mark.
This is probably irrelevant, but there was indeed a Saint Daria (died c. AD 283. She was a Persian who married an Egyptian named Chrysanthus and was martyred in Rome for being a Christian. The name in Persian, according to the source I consulted, means "Preserver")
So if Jake's family is Jewish and Helen's Christian, this would mean Daria doesn't belong to any religious community. It's improbable that her parents could/would decide on a religion for her daughter and Daria doesn't seem like she wants to join any religious communities on her own. She might believe in god, nontheless. MSB
I really don't get it. I've seen nothing on the show that would suggest any religion. The only evidence suggested was the unusual last name Morgendorffer. Is that a Jewish name? I'm from the South and don't have that much experience with Jewish people. The ones I've met seemed pretty much like everyone else and their last names seemed pretty ordinary. Have we gotten to the point where we label people according to their last names? Considering the complex paths families have taken over the centuries I don't really know how you can reliably identify someone's religion by their last name.
The only thing about any Morgendorffer religious practice would seem to be its absence, a common thing these days. A workaholic couple like Jake and Helen would prefer to relax on Sunday morning with the paper and simply give thanks that they made it through the week. If you're thinking Saturday--I'd bet Helen is hard at work in the office on Saturday--and maybe Sunday too. Probably Jake would be in the office as well.
Matthias Benkmann wrote in message news:[email]...
Maybe I'm just obtuse, but I never really gave it a second thought--or even a first thought. In this context there are only two kinds of people: People who are Daria fans and people who aren't. I can find of lots of reasons to dislike people, and frequently do, but how they spell their names or where their family originally came from--I really don't care.
On the whole, I divide people into two groups: People who cause me trouble and people who don't.
"Just because people are cliquy or snotty is no reason not to like them." "...or hate them."
There are two kinds of people: People who say there are two kinds of people and people who don't.
Well, in terms of stereotypes, Daria is a classic Jewish intellectual and Quinn a classic Jewish American Princess. Though of course this doesn't mean that either of their parents is actually Jewish.
Jewish or German. Since most American Jews are Ashkenazim, and Yiddish (the Ashkenazi language) is a dialect of German, American Jewish names tend to sound a lot like (and sometimes be identical to) German ones.
Most Southern Jewish families have been in America a LONG time (since the 18th century) and have as a result fully assimilated. To give an example of what I mean, the Confederate Secretary of the Navy was Jewish. (KKK anti-Semitism started around c.1900 or so, why I'm actually not all that sure).
Well, it's often a clue. If a man is named "McGillicuddy", I figure there's Irish paternal ancestry, for example.
On 18 Aug 1999 06:05:08 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
You forget the most important part. The "typical" Jewish names are very poetic, like Goldstein (=stone of gold), Morgentau (morning dew), Morgenstern (morning star) or Morgendorffer (person from the morning village). Don't take my word for it but I faintly remember a lesson taught in history class. At some point in the middle ages, Jews were forced to pay for their last names. If you had a lot of money (many Jews did, that's why people didn't like them) you could afford a good name. Otherwise you'd get a name like fucker, fuck or asshole (Don't laugh. There _are_ people with these names in Germany.) MSB
Let me explain. I DON'T think Daria is Jewish.....but in fan works, as I previously mentioned, I've seen a few references to her family having some kind of tie with Judaism. (BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with Rich's initial assertion that it doesn't matter what, if any religion the Big D subscribes to.) I was confused by what I read in a few fanfics and posted the question. I'm sorry to that I confused everyone with the post.
Unless THAT was my intent all along!!!!! To spread confusion and fear in preparation for the MARTIAN ATOMIC COMMUNIST TAKEOVER!!!!! BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!! Or maybe not.
(apologies to those who haven't seen the "Lawndale File") ------ Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....
This has been a test of Nick's signature file. It was only a test. If it had been an
actual signature file, you would have been mildly amused at his wit. Thank you.
There's no need to apologize for posting almost anything discussing Daria. That's why we're all here. Just as long as you don't insist she's just a random loser who can't get a date.
It is a legitimate question though. While fanfic writers can do pretty much anything they like, why would they insert a jewish theme? Although I should note that I haven't read very many of the fanfics and of the ones I have I haven't noticed any particular propensity toward Judaism.
preparation
Confusion and fear are pretty common. That's why we enjoy Daria. She lends stability and reason to a confused world. Why, if everyone in the world watched Daria there would be no more war. Peace would rule the planet. There would be love...love...everywhere...love. It's a beautiful day in the cyberhood.
I always thought the Morgandorfers archtypal WASPs (certainly Helen!). And Jake's family being german-american would certainly fit (ethno-steriotypically, if you will) with his memories of his father/upbringing/military school, etc... Jake would certainly claim any background if he thought it would get him a contract. (DONT GO! I'll believe anything you want, God-DAMMIT!)
Quin has always seemed much too whitebread to me to be a convincing JAP (although YOU Sandy, YOU are _so_ much more like a princess than _I_ am).
I have the feeling Daria would LIKE to be of Jewish descent and I can certainly see her falsely claiming to be-- in an act of supreme self-righteous denigration-- should she ever encounter anti-semitism. Her life seems to be a constant act of rebellion against the values of WASPy suburbanism through the medium of intellectualism.
I would think Daria's theological outlook would be firmly based in modern intellectual philosophy (with a dash of Nihilism) which dispenses with God as a simple-minded myth. But, of course, Daria is completely out of touch with what she REALLY believes or values (not surprising in a 16-year-old) which is the source of a lot of the character's interest (aside from the sheer joy of cynical derision).
They are. Though note that their name is spelled "Morgendorffer", and it's either German or Jewish. Maybe even Dutch?
To play devil's advocate, if Jake's father were Jewish and military this might have driven him to even more extreme machismo than his fellows, just to show he wasn't a wimp.
JAP's often are pretty darn "whitebread" though. That's part of the humor of the whole stereotype. But I agree ... she shows no particularly "Jewish" traits.
nah, there aren't any "Morgendorffer"s here, so it's at least not a real common dutch name. Now if her name was uuh DeVries or Van Something-or-other or Zondervan (heh, Christian book company) than she'd be Dutch...
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
Usually the kids wind up deciding in that situation. As if anyone could force any belief on Daria anyway ...
I can't see her being a big fan of ORGANIZED religion.
The Invisigoth Gypsy thinks so, as does my fiancee Marie. I suspect that she believes in the Judeochristian God, but is not otherwise being very specific about religion.
I think Daria's religion is purposely hard to pin down, as she could easily be pinned down as heroic by Christians (or other religious groups) or by atheists.
Christians might admire her strong personal ethics and ability to stand up for them, even in the face of many dangers, willingness to be persecuted, etc.
Atheists, on the other hand, might see Daria's intelligence, use of logic, ability to see through falacies, and inability to accept ideas she has no reason to believe.
In terms of other religions... I don't know. There's not really any diversity here in Grandville ...
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
Big if, although I'll freely admit the truth of the conclusion if you take the "if."
Surprisingly, she believes in morals. I'll never forget the stinging rebuke that Daria delivers to that sorry-excuse-for-a-minister in her oh-so-subtle way. As much as Daria likes to say she doesn't have a conscience, when she invokes the saying, she immediately acts in a moral way. Actually, except for all the bribe-taking (and seeking!) that she engages in, as well as the cheating-for-bucks scenarios, she's one of the few principled characters on the show. Even Jane takes the mall coupon over Daria's suggestion of standing for principle.
She is consistently moral, and judges both herself and others by rather high standards. Standards high enough that it worries Helen (who sees what Daria does not, which is that NOBODY is likely to be able to meet Daria's standards, not even Daria). How many mothers do you know who worry that about their daughters?
Daria follows her own moral code, and nobody else's. Dagny would say she has "ethics" rather than morals, but it amounts to the same thing (heh, wonder what Dagny'll say to that?) :)
Jane's a lot less idealistic and more (truly) cynical than Daria. She's a good person, but she's MUCH more wiling to compromise to get along. The one thing she is truly fanatical about is her art.
On 18 Aug 1999 05:59:49 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Which is exactly why Jane's _NOT_ a real cynic. MSB (who hopes he'll finish that essay on cynics he's writing some day)
I'll disagree-- the truly cynical will realize that in the end, whether or not you go along is immaterial. Might as well get what you can out of society, before they take it back forcibly. (Especially if you're living on "Art." Art is notorious for not paying the electricity bill, as is Idealism.) IMO, the truly cynical realizes the futility of fighting against society, and realizes that when society presents you with something to take advantage of, take advantage of it while you can.
The Idealistic Protester will try to fight Society whenever possible, while the truly jaded and cynical will try to exploit Society whenever possible, realizing that there's little point in fighting society. The length of the cynic's protest is usually a witty barb about the general stupidity of the Masses.
Here's a good example-- in "The Invitation," Jane is interested in going to the party for the potential to find Subjects for sketching. Her motivation is, "What the hell-- it's better than listening to Trent, and I'll probably never get invited to one of these stupid parties anyway. Besides, I can probably find some way or another to amuse myself." Sure enough, she did. (And she wasn't invited to another one.) Same thing goes for "Arts N' Crass." Jane is stuck in an invidious position, and goes along simply because it's easier to go along than to resist Ms. DeFoe's suggestion. Only when her art was compromised was Jane willing to buck the system. Her whole motivation for going to the Ren Fair in "Fair Enough" was to see just how stupid it was going to turn out-- hey, she already had to pay $10 for a ticket, anyway. Might as well go along with it. Same thing with going to see The Shark Lady in TDH-- "But this stupid thing will be our idea." Then, of course, there's a great example, but it's a season 3 spoiler if you haven't seen "Depth Takes A Holiday" yet, so...
spoilers for DTAH / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / J: [expresses her hopes that the holidays will become so overcommercialized that no one will celebrate them until, presto! She's all alone at Thanksgiving.] D: Sometimes I wonder if you're too cynical, even for me. J: Really, ya think? D: No, I was being sarcastic.
cyncially, rich.
Jane: You know, I don't know why people say we have a bad attitude.
On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:24:12 GMT, [email] (paperpusher) wrote:
Of course there is not "official" definition of cynic but if you look into a dictionary you will see (if it's a good dictionary) that the original cynics in ancient Greece were voluntary social drop-outs. They were not willing to play along with other people. MSB
Yes, but times have changed, as have meanings. Maybe we can differentiate between "classical" cynics, who could drop out of society, and "modern" cynics, who cannot. (The only "classical" cynic I can think of in the modern era is the Unabomber, who dropped out of society to live in a tar paper shack in the wilds of Montana and send mailbombs to people he felt were threats to the environment. He definitely had trouble playing with others.)
rich.
Jane: Uh-oh, someone just put us in a position of responsibility.
On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:55:05 GMT, [email] (Matthias Benkmann) wrote:
IMHO, I don't think that's always the case. I'm going with paperpusher on this one, and say that the truly cynical is someone who realizes the futility of fighting against society (because he/she believes it won't make a difference anyway). It is my contention that Jane is more cynical than Daria for the very fact that she is much more willing to compromise to get along. It's the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" aspect of it.
I think that cynicism in its extreme leads to strong apathy. Think of the Green Peace crusader that's worked for years trying to save the planet, only to see it soiled once again, and again, and again. He turns cynical about the whole fate of their cause, and decides to just give up, and join the rest of the polluting society. Thus, he becomes extremely pessimistic about human nature, and turns apathetic about the fate of the world.
Now Daria is in part idealistic. Even though she sees the world around her with disdain, and recognizes that popularity seems to take precedence over intelligence, she still will not give in to the masses. This is because she has certain principles, and having principles, she realizes that the world around her should be better, that people should be treated better - thus making her a little bit of an idealist. One could argue that Quinn, in this case, could be the ultimate cynic. She looks around her and sees that being attractive and popular is the be-all and end-all of high school experience. She perhaps knows this isn't a good thing, she perhaps realizes that it is all superficial and meaningless. But instead of trying to rectify the problem, she becomes the problem. And perhaps this is because she realizes she isn't going to make a difference, she realizes that human nature is essentially superficial anyway, and she joins the masses. That's an extremely cynical and pessimistic view to take. Of course, Quinn might not have thought that way, and she simply is that shallow and superficial all along. This IS just a theory after all.
Daria is not just your regular cynic. She's an idealist AND a cynic, making her a unique person. She sees the horrible way people are treating each other around her, but she secretly hopes it will be better. Look at what she wrote in "Write Where It Hurts." She knows things aren't all that great at the present, but she *hopes* that it'll be better, and that future situation is what she wants things to be like. I believe that many of the people here on atd seem to be like that. Recognizing the worst, but hoping for the best.
Maybe we're all secretly not as alienated as we seem.
Jane: Wow. Well, listen, now that you've got such a great attitude and everything, can I have your boots?
Daria: Yeah. Turn around and I'll give you one right now.
hey! are you in a plot to get me to post more? everything you post has "Dagny will say..." or whatever :)
Well I don't like the term "morals" any more than the terms "nice" or "faith" because while, in their correct meaning, they can be good, they are so often misused. "Nice" instead of meaning kind, generous, caring, etc. is often used to mean "inoffensive". "Faith" has been taken to mean "I don't think about that", used by certain types of Christians as an answer to all questions.
And morals. "We're a moral family" or "We're a moral community" can cover a variety of horrible things... censorship, attacks on anyone who doesn't think like you, or even what the "moral community" of Byron Center did in firing their high school band teacher for being a homosexual. He was a good teacher, too, unlike some teachers that they'd have more reason to fire... morals are used to oppress people. Morals are used to tell people what they should do, what they should believe, all that.
Ethics, in my view, are more personal. Ethics are this is what I will and will not do. This is what I believe. I have no problem with ethics.
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
And what's worse, often the outwardly inoffensive turn out to be very nasty under their facade. Inoffensiveness may derive from many motives ... cowardice and cunning amongst them.
The honest are usually at least a bit offensive ... opinions differ, after all.
Well ... depends on the NATURE of one's morals, now doesn't it?
I would call Daria more "ethical" than "moral" by your definitions.
I've said it before, I'll say it again-- the Barksdales remind me of traditional Southern Episcopalians. You know, "Catholic-Lite." ;-) It would be very appropriate for them to have the ceremony at a country club/resort. (All of this is from my experience, IMO, YMMV, whatever.)
Who knows? That's why I'm really warming up to the iconographic theory-- less messy that way.
Remember, also, if you have the Daria Diaries, that Helen and Jake had one of those kinda hippie weddings. (The vows are hilarious.) They signed them with their names and astrological signs. I guess organized religion was a bit too much like following the traditions of "The Man" for them.
The amusing thing is that the only time that any characters appear in a church/house of worship/whatever-people-call-it-these-days-depending-on-their-belief-systems are for the wedding in the opening credits, and the wedding in WWIH.
So you mean that Daria and Trent won't get together? ;-) I don't remember seeing any Lawndale students called "Chrysanthus..." Hm... maybe he goes to Oakwood. ;-)
I don't! I don't!
rich-- Cancer. ;-) (yes, that means I'm a nurturer! <g>)
"Wedding receptions differ according to types of excess, the type
of excess being determined by religious affiliation. There is an excess
of relatives at a Catholic wedding, an excess of food at a Jewish
wedding, and an excess of station wagons at a Protestant wedding so that
people have to park all over the grass.
"Everyone should get excessively drunk at any wedding reception,
although Protestants usually run out of liquor almost immediately and the
men have to go in the country-club locker room and get the Scotch bottles
out of their golf bags in order to get as drunk as they properly should."
(/Modern Manners/, Atlantic Monthly Press, 1989. Chapter 17: The Horrible Wedding. If you haven't read O'Rourke, do so.)
Just sharing what I know and learning what I don't...
Helen's maiden name is Barksdale (remember the front entry in "The Daria Database"? and in "I Don't"/"TALD", references to Aunt Amy as being Amy Barksdale?). Quite the WASPy type of name if you draw on inferences, don't you think? And "Morgendorffere", btw, to me sounds definitely Germanic, which could mean the family is Jewish, but could also just as easily mean they're Christians. Yes, non-practicing, of course, but still.
Correction time. I know what "Morgendorffer" is supposed to be spelled as, and I know that there is no extra "e" at the end. It's just that (a) I was typing as fast as I could (as normal) and (b) I'm barely half awake as it is. Just consider it a little mistake and move on. :)
Hi there. As a long time lurker, and now a full fledged participant in this whole Daria thing (I wrote a fan-fict, fer godsake), I have always thought that a good way to resolve the religious ambiguity of the Morgandorpher clan would be to have Helen have a near death experience (a car crash, for instance) which would put the fear of God into her, and cause her to force Jake and the offspring off to the church of her choice.
Once in church, Daria would of course see the hypocrisy of many of the congregation, but would probably have no problem with the loftier goals of religion (the looking beyond ourselves, Gods eye view of things,spiritual growth,etc.) Quinn, and Mom would be absorbed into the "what does everyone else think of me", while Jake would burn in internal torment over past religious experiences inflicted on him by dear old dad. Eventually, Helen would probably realize that she can't really maintain the "goodie two shoes" facade, and restore the family unit to its nominal "non-practicing" status.
No chance of such an episode actually being aired, though. Religion is far too taboo, even more than sex, on television. Even the most genaric treatment of religion would incur the wrath of the right wing God-squad.
On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:02:19 GMT, "Milo Minderbinder" wrote:
And what about the Simpsons. Religion plays an important role there. One my favorite scenes is when Krusty is eating with the Simpsons and speaks a Hebrew prayer. Homer bursts out laughing because he thinks it's clown language. I love Homer. He's my favorite character. MSB
Ah but that is a comment on society's perception of religion, rather than the validity of the religion itself. Interestingly when the Simpsons touched on the subject of Not Going To Church, a) they all started off as church goers and b) (though my memory could be wrong here) they all ended up as church goers too
Q: has Father Ted been screened in the States or Canada yet? I can imagine Canada (the home of series about degenerate Nova Scotian priests if I recall correctly) would have no problem....
ttfn MH
Maria Hamilton Senior Software Engineer RCP Consultants
A couple of points: You treat Canada like one unit. Believe me, it isn't.
Also, the "series" was a movie - "The Boys of St. Vincent", which was based on the story of Mount Cashel, a church-run orphanage in Newfoundland where the children where physically, mentally and sexually abused by the priests who ran the orphanage. This movie was, I believe, banned in one province.
Another movie that has seen the censor's stamp of disapproval was "Bastard out of Carolina", which was banned in Nova Scotia.
Sorry for any misunderstandings: I should have said, "...screened anywhere in the States or Canada", which was what I meant.
Nope, neither of those was what I was thinking of. Wonder what it was? It *was* a long time ago (8-10 years). Perhaps I shall never know then. But it was definitely TV, because it was featured in a program about community-specific TV programming around the world.
The Simpsons, as cynical as they seem, always end up on the right side of every subject eventually. Homer gave up church, but in the end he was back in the fold. Homer was tempted several times by sex outside his marriage, but always, in the end, ended up home with Marge.
Even Crusty's Jewish background doesn't make fun of his religion. Lisa feels sorry for him that he is not more proud of his heritage.
A "Darian" view of religion would not end in "sweetness and light". She would see most of the participants (ministers, congregation, etc.) as being hypocrites, and only a small percentage actually gaining any real benefit from the exercise.
Imagine the fun if Sandys mom, Brittany's folks, Mr. DeMartino and Ms. Lee were members of the same church. The fallout wouldn't be pretty. And that's what would get them in trouble.
And the plot line would be "Not church members, church members, not church members". The God-squad would be all over MTV like a cheap suit.
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:11:18 GMT, Milo Minderbinder wrote:
Then let's do it ourselves. Make up some nasty church and hypocrisy jokes and post them to the D-tag thread, maybe I can work them into the game. As I said in another message, I don't care fuck about PC. MSB
I see them as Unitarians - the ideal religion for the "yes-but" among us.
I think it would be more interesting to see Daria get a dose of religion - perhaps via a personal religious experience. Say while Helen was recovering from that near-death experience you mentioned!
This is quite a common way for younger people like Daria to become more socialised, so it would be a good plot device. I've seen a lot of shy (or call it what you will - it's difficult to pin down) people like Daria be catapulted into society via that route. The crucial thing is that the religion should have *being nice to other people* as one of its tenets. That and seeing the good bits in other people.
Of course I imagine that the moment she had to get up early on a Sunday morning it would all fade away!
Or there's always the "annoying new convert" plotline. But that's been done in the Simpsons with Lisa's vegetarianism already.
Hoo boy yes. Hands up who wants to be the next Salman Rushdie! Someone? Anyone? No?
ttfn Maria H
Maria Hamilton Senior Software Engineer RCP Consultants
But we've seen Daria's version of a personal religious experience via her dream in "ILL". I'm afraid this is a legitimate view of religion in the world that Daria occupies (what would we want with a "brain" in heaven).
Thomas Fitzgerald Van Horne wrote in message news:[email]...
world
I think it's more Daria's self-esteem. Sure, she insists she doesn't have low self-esteem but I think we pretty well know otherwise. And how could she not have low self-esteem?: Being teased, ignored, no one understands her, no one understands the things she'd like to talk about, they make fun of the way she talks, her vocabulary, the subjects she wants to talk about, the clothes she wears, and maybe even her glasses--sound familiar? No wonder when she imagines heaven she might imagine it as a place where they have no need for a "brain." Unless that actually WASN'T a dream, maybe it actually WAS heaven and they actually DON'T have any need for a "brain." Ever think about THAT!?
Hmm....I don't know. Except for the glasses thing, she never betrayed any security in her inate value. Her line at the time was quite good actually.
One of the whole problems with this particular pop-psychology concept is the fact that our own self worth is NOT measured by others. A measure of maturity is the separation of other's opinions of our value from our own. A reasonably mature person follows the Greek "Know thyself" not a "Know yourself from what others say or think about you".
The Greeks had a lot more wisdom on this than "realizing your actuality," and other meaningless drivel. Daria knows her abilities pretty well, and except for the momentary (and that should be stressed) confusion with the glasses/ contacts thing, she knows *herself* pretty well and is content, really. She could have been a little more aware of her reactions to Trent and done something about it but ooops, spoilers 1 2, buckle my shoe 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Hey, this is spoilers! 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 / / / / 25 as I was saying...that's now pretty much moot. She HAS done something about it by striking up a different kind of relationship with Trent. Sure it's still in flux, but as one person said, the crush is now dead, and for my part, may it rest in peace.
Let's just say my convictions led me to have a professional interest in this question, and I'm quite optimistic on the salvific potential of brains. :-)
father_v wrote in message news:7pmr1c$ucm$[email]...
have
any
actually.
I don't think so. Well, actually I agree it's a good line but I disagree that it's really indicative of her personal measure of self-worth. Daria has frequently indicated that she expects to be treated badly by other people, that she expects bad things to happen to her and that she isn't going to be capable of achieving and overcoming obstacles, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. To the remark that her attitude is self-defeating she replys, "Well, it's good to know there's someone I can defeat." Such remarks made occasionally might indicate modesty or self-deprecating humor, such remarks made routinely might suggest that the person really does believe what they're saying.
is the
own. A
actuality," and
except
glasses/
really. She
9 10
was
by
still in
may it
It's difficult to grow up and live in a world full of people and not have what they say impinge on your self-worth. With enough continued repetition a person can be programmed to believe almost anything. A young school child with a somewhat higher than average IQ, tormented by vicious classmates driven by hatred, being beaten, strangled, ostracized, contantly told he's stupid, and making poor grades in school might very well come to believe that he really is stupid and worthless. He then quits trying in school, never attempting anything, believing that he really is too stupid to succeed, and running a serious risk of falling into a life of failure. A self-fulfilling prophesy. There is hope though. He might still be able to validate his still deeply-held but tattered self-worth by some small but tangible achievement like earning a pilot's license or being accepted by Mensa, the High-IQ society. Similarly, after growing up in Highland, shunned by almost everyone, with your sister being "the cute one," and Beavis and Butt-head as companions, Daria might very well develop a low opinion of herself that we can easily recognize as unjustified, though her response to her low self-worth might be manifested in entirely different ways. Imagine being called stupid by the likes of Beavis and Butt-head--as they did. I can imagine it quite easily. As much as we may like to insist otherwise, we all need a little positive feedback from the real world, including the people around us.
Daria may, on an intellectual level, have a pretty accurate image of herself, but still be unable to accept it emotionally. "Let's say you have an identity you don't even like." Daria may, like a lot of people, have bought into the popular idea that being a brain is uncool--an idea vigorously advanced by the non-brains. It would do her a world of good for someone to simply make her realize that being smart IS cool. Geek is chic. Would we like Daria any more if she weren't smart? I doubt it. Could you have Daria and not have her be a brain? Can you have a CD without a CD-player? I don't think so!
think
in this
brains. :-)
Let's all hope you're right. I prefer to be a little more analytical about it though, figuring that God wouldn't have given me a brain if he didn't intend me to use it to think about these things.
On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:49:12 -0400, "R. K. Henry" wrote:
That depends. I think there is more to her personality than just "being smart". Your statement sounds almost like "A girl must have either brains or good looks." which is simply not true (at least not in my little fantasy world). MSB
well unfortunately being totally brainless is in fashion today... just look at the media... Britney Spears? Talk about being superficial and stupid. And yet it is her sort that IS set forth as "attractive", which causes people to think attractive = stupid and intelligent = unattractive.
I think that's more of a societal thing than anything, though. I don't think there's a genetic basis that someone intelligent can't also have attractive features
And beauty, as usual, is in the eye of the beholder....
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
On 22 Aug 1999 20:56:50 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (Dagny Scott), and it said:
Very much so. One thing I've noticed over the years is that my perception of beauty has very little to do with physical appearance. I know this because there have been girls that, when I first met them, I didn't think much of them, until I actually got to know them. Then I suddenly noticed just how beautiful they actually were, much more so than the pretty girls I admired from a distance.
With the exception of that first impression (which can be aided considerably by simply being healthy, clean, and well groomed), physical appearance has very little to do with percieved beauty.
That's for sure - my first girlfriend had an IQ of about 160 and she was even cuter than Quinn. And going by the number of boys who used to trail around after her offering to carry her astrophysics books, I wasn't the only one who thought so. Conversely, there are also an awful lot of people who are both ugly and stupid, though I've managed to avoid getting to know most of them personally.
Oh yeah, see my famous fortnight in Turkey, that I never got round to fully describing. Bascically, the 1st week was spent fleeing from 3 staggeringly unattractive, stupid but alas extremely forward girls. The 2nd week was spent fleeing from 2 articulate, beautiful girls a year older than me (And 2 years older than Nick, lol, but no-one realises that, he's ridiculously huge for his age), who generally followed us about. Sigh, the first week gave me a deep hatred of most other people, the second filled me with less-than-yummy self-loathing for being so shy. Oh, and they were Quinn and Sandi, to a hilarious extent. Hair color, rivalry, attitude to "dating", everything. Pah.
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:19:03 +0100, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from "Greg Pallis" , and it said:
I think the "extremely forward" part probably added to their unattractive nature. If they were actually nice people, intelligent or not, you might have found them somewhat attractive.
father_v wrote in message news:7pmr1c$ucm$[email]...
have
any
actually.
I don't think so. Well, actually I agree it's a good line but I disagree that it's really indicative of her personal measure of self-worth. Daria has frequently indicated that she expects to be treated badly by other people, that she expects bad things to happen to her and that she isn't going to be capable of achieving and overcoming obstacles, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. To the remark that her attitude is self-defeating she replys, "Well, it's good to know there's someone I can defeat." Such remarks made occasionally might indicate modesty or self-deprecating humor, such remarks made routinely might suggest that the person really does believe what they're saying.
is the
own. A
actuality," and
except
glasses/
really. She
9 10
was
by
still in
may it
It's difficult to grow up and live in a world full of people and not have what they say impinge on your self-worth. With enough continued repetition a person can be programmed to believe almost anything. A young school child with a somewhat higher than average IQ, tormented by vicious classmates driven by hatred, being beaten, strangled, ostracized, contantly told he's stupid, and making poor grades in school might very well come to believe that he really is stupid and worthless. He then quits trying in school, never attempting anything, believing that he really is too stupid to succeed, and running a serious risk of falling into a life of failure. A self-fulfilling prophesy. There is hope though. He might still be able to validate his still deeply-held but tattered self-worth by some small but tangible achievement like earning a pilot's license or being accepted by Mensa, the High-IQ society. Similarly, after growing up in Highland, shunned by almost everyone, with your sister being "the cute one," and Beavis and Butt-head as companions, Daria might very well develop a low opinion of herself that we can easily recognize as unjustified, though her response to her low self-worth might be manifested in entirely different ways. Imagine being called stupid by the likes of Beavis and Butt-head--as they did. I can imagine it quite easily. As much as we may like to insist otherwise, we all need a little positive feedback from the real world, including the people around us.
Daria may, on an intellectual level, have a pretty accurate image of herself, but still be unable to accept it emotionally. "Let's say you have an identity you don't even like." Daria may, like a lot of people, have bought into the popular idea that being a brain is uncool--an idea vigorously advanced by the non-brains. It would do her a world of good for someone to simply make her realize that being smart IS cool. Geek is chic. Would we like Daria any more if she weren't smart? I doubt it. Could you have Daria and not have her be a brain? Can you have a CD without a CD-player? I don't think so!
think
in this
brains. :-)
Let's all hope you're right. I prefer to be a little more analytical about it though, figuring that God wouldn't have given me a brain if he didn't intend me to use it to think about these things.
But in Daria's world? Or are your convictions definatively related to existence without need for external affirmation.
Would a christian who sees a bus plunging towards himself and suddenly finds himself in a fiery pit surrounded by pitchfork-waving demons be ethicly obligated to attempt to share the virtues of salvation with the demons?
On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:38:07 -0400, "R. K. Henry" wrote:
I always thought you don't need _anything_ in heaven except for a soul. Isn't it supposed to be an all-inclusive trip, like "Heaven! You bring your soul, we provide the rest!" MSB
That was rather my point -- I must observe that Daria's world is NOT the world we occupy-- Trust me, Guy Falk's Day looks completely different than the way they drew him-- the deities of Daria's world are running a different show and that view of heaven seems perfectly in tune with Lawndale's existence (although, to be fair, we know it was a dream because Mrs whats-her-name wasn't dead).
SO you've MET Guy Falk's Day, then? (motioning to the boys in the white jackets)
Say isn't Guy Falk some guy who tried to blow up the parlament or something? And this is a holiday? Sounds like an anarchist's holiday to me! Doesn't ANYONE in this town wear pants anymore? -Helen DtM Please for the love of God visit my web page: http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/wildbill/155/dmain.html
crazy nutso wrote in message news:7po637$q9u$[email]...
You're right, Guy Fawkes is the guy <ahem> who tried to blow up Parliament.
He was brutally tortured (his signature on the confession is affecting to see, so weak and spidery, that was once bold, firm and confident), then gruesomely executed. On Bonfire Night (I've never heard it called Guy Fawkes Day) he is burned in effigy, and fireworks are let off in celebration of his arrest and execution. So I guess it's not much of a holiday for anarchists, unless you mean those who reason that any method may be employed to protect national security. ;:-|
But if it wasn't a dream, and she wasn't dead, then how come Daria, who had never seen Mrs. Sullivan before, accurately dreamed her?
There really is a school spirit. Spooky.
(Well, it's no big mystery-- it's a convenience used by the "Daria" staff so that we'll know what Mrs. Sullivan looks like in the final scene... but I still thought it was kinda interesting that nobody's picked up on that in, oh, about a year or so.) ;-)
In Search Of... rich
Jane: Usually when I have this dream I'm wearing pink taffeta.