This newsgroup seems to have decended into a sad state of existance recently, of the last couple of weeks it seems to have had very little if no on topic descussion, and seems to have largely descended into a mass of flame wars and petty squabbles. Alt.tv.daria used to be a place where people could hang out and talk about things sensibly, it would appear not so anymore. I don't know what we can do about this I would like to see a return to the state of the group as it was when I first started reading it about 2 years ago now, where evrybody did respect everyone else, and we did at least discuss some Daria related stuff. I used to feel at home, welcome here, at the moment I can positivly say I do not. So please if we cold all take a step back and see how silly some of this has become, and maybe the group might get back some way to being the friendly place it once was.
Oh yeah and I do realise I have in part contributed to some of the flame wars going on, so I'm probably as guilty as some of the others.
i agree. i don't think there's been any genuine flame-wars either. and what's wrong with off-topic discussion? hasn't this ng always been pretty off-topic?
On 16 May 2000 22:12:14 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:
Hmm.. I have to go with Kyle on this one. It seems like business as usual, we have off-topic discussions all the time anyway. We have always talked about controversial topics without it degenerating into flamewars. And if you've noticed there *hasn't* been any flamewars. The only thing that's been around are intelligent discussions about social issues.
The one thing that I would criticize is the occasional poke at a person's opinion. I recall there was a post or two that went something like "How could you believe that?" or "Why are you so stupid?" in response to a particular person's opinion on something. These comments are sort of on a slide towards a flamewar.. which I would discourage. But otherwise, it's all been rather intelligent discussion and debate, which is quite interesting to read, IMO.
YMMV of course.
Cheers, Nicole Lee
http://www.neekole.com
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..." -- Isaac Asimov
"No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed." -- Homer Simpson
Daria Code v1.1: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313,406 BB- FCD DT q fN
I take it back. After several recent events on this NG, I have to now agree that this here NG is infested with trollers and flamers with eager victims just waiting to take the bait.
I may take a sabbatical from this NG if it continues to be this way.
Cheers, Nicole Lee
http://www.neekole.com
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..." -- Isaac Asimov
"No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed." -- Homer Simpson
Daria Code v1.1: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313,406 BB- FCD DT q fN
Yes, I mainly hang out on rec.sport.tennis these days. The big challenge there is to be able to keep talking endlessly about tennis (they don't have offtopic discussions), but so far I'm coping, and it'll be Wimbledon in just over a month which'll give me plenty of ammo, since it gets saturation coverage in the UK.
Of course it's easier to keep talking about tennis than Daria, as new tennis matches happen every week, unlike new Daria episodes. (Nor do they delay broadcasting tennis matches in the UK until several months after they were shown in the US.)
On 17 May 2000 22:05:55 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:
Yeah.. Even though off-topic discussions are the norm around here, and it is really quite fun and educational from time to time, the recent discussions seem to be.. I don't know.. too emotionally driven. Or perhaps it's just the lack of manners, like rich said. It'd probably be a lot better if people just said "Okay, I respect that opinion, and now I will present my view" instead of going "Geez you're so dense in thinking that way." Well not in those exact words, but you get my point. There's just too much hostility around here. What happened to good ol' agreeing to disagree while managing to carry on a regular ol' civil debate? Huh?
If I recall, the old debates about religion were incredibly well executed. When I read through those, I really felt like applauding everyone on this NG. It was so respectful of other's beliefs, everyone was providing their views on thing in a civil manner, and were still able to remain a strong community. It was educational, interesting, and overall it felt really great to be in such a diverse group full of differing POVs. That was why I said I preferred the old religion debates compared to the current ones. There was just less hostility.
Or maybe I'm just an old fogie who can't "get with the times" ;)
You know.. your suggestion has prompted me to think about setting up an alternative online message board for atd-ers. I know paperpusher and OD have them too, but they're mostly for a different set of Daria fans (yes I know they accept everyone, but you gotta admit they have a whole other community going there - of which I'm also a part of). I figure I'm going to leave it rather unmoderated, in the sense that a few swear words are fine, and a few controversial topics are allowed, within certain guidelines. In that way, it'd be almost exactly the same as atd, except that I will take the liberty to hose down any potential flamewars. And yes, I do recognize the difference between a healthy debate and a flamewar, so I think I can make that choice properly.
Of course, in that way, it'd be mostly a dictatorial operation because it is *my* site that is being used, instead of a free-for-all public forum like Usenet. Some people might not like that very much. Well.. it depends if there is support for it. If not, I'll probably let everyone here calm down on their own. That is, if they ever do :P
Cheers, Nicole Lee
http://www.neekole.com
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..." -- Isaac Asimov
"No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed." -- Homer Simpson
Daria Code v1.1: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313,406 BB- FCD DT q fN
Yeah this was one of the things that prompted the original post things, one of the 'debates' I seemed to have gotten myself involved in was sloping off towards becoming a series of personal insults, or this was the way it seemed to me, basically I was trying to at least make some sort of noise and possibly stop it before the group desended into anarchy.
Yes Hell I'm not saying I don't want only on topic stuff, just that it would be better if everyone was respectfull of each other, which for the most part in the religeon debate they where :)
Hey <AOL>me too</AOL>, then again you where recently 21 ? heheeh I was 31 about 3 months ago, so it's kinda more true for me :)
Woohoo somebody listened to one of my sugestions woohoo :)
Yeah and alas there seems to be no quick way of reading the message board messages off line, like ther is for a.t.d, and at the moment I can't afford the online time to read them :) (will hopefully be signing up for one of the uk un-memtered net access deals soon). Another thing I don't like which is I suppose is a bit hypocrytical is that they *are* moderated, I do object to having to be carefull what I say incase someone else censors me :)
And also be prepared to take abuse from both sides of said 'debate' when they don't like you taking away their fun :)
Well perhaps what we need is a.t.d.moderated ? no I'm not volanteering to moderate, I just don't have the time....humm wonder if I could write an AI to do that :)
On Fri, 19 May 2000 14:34:34 +0000, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:
Well, as someone who's been running a board for about 6 months now, I can say that you can do a minimal amount of moderating if you make your guidelines clear, open, and very, very conspicuous, and then do your dangedest to follow them fairly. It's also important to communicate clearly with posters who violate the policies, and explain to them *why* what was done was done. For the most part, it's been very successful, and we haven't had a flame war yet. (And I don't plan to let one happen, either.) We (I say 'we' because I have 3 deputy moderators as well) try to follow a 'hands-off' policy as a general rule, but since some of the posters are younger folks, I 'encourage' folks to keep it polite. Sometimes it's amazing that folks just don't think about what they say to kids.
I guess with a MB, it's much clearer that what goes on really *doesn't* occur in a vacuum, and after this week, I'm more aware than ever that there are REAL LIVE PEOPLE on the other end of these things. A fact that many folks just don't quite grasp, sadly. Until they do, I'll moderate my board with an eye to protecting those who cannot protect themselves.
Well, as I said before-- set rules and follow them. They aren't really hard rules to follow, either. In fact, all I ask of my posters is that they act like decent human beings, not trolls, and be aware of the total diversity of the board's audience, and couch their lanuage accordingly. Frankly, if they can't do that, then I don't want them posting on the board, anyway. Fortunately, I haven't had to go to that level yet.
Heh, I doubt that, Phill. As for topicness, I don't have any topicness requirements on the MB-- those do exist on the OD MBs, but on mine I encourage the exploration of any topic that is important to the members, be it about animation, Daria, school, writing, mythology... jeez, we've covered all sorts of stuff. Every MB has its niche to fill-- I'm not quite sure what the niche on my MB is, but it's been doing a pretty decent job of providing a pretty safe place for folks to go just about as off or on-topic as they'd like.
And, frankly, if someone violates the rules (and it's hard to post without knowing what they are) and gets mad that his/her post gets whacked, well, frankly, that's just too bad. The rules are there for a reason-- because I've already seen unmoderated or poorly moderated MBs go right into the dumper, to the point where everyone leaves because it isn't fun anymore. And that's the point-- to have a FUN place to post messages. Because if it isn't fun, why the heck should anyone bother??? Life's too short to suffer trolls.
Oh, and by the by, you may see a lot of "--message deleted--" lines on the MB-- most of those are removed by the poster, NOT by the admins. I've only had to kill one thread personally, and the other admins have only had to remove the odd double-post or one or two possible "warm" posts. I haven't even had to escalate to my secret weapons once, and I hope never to have to, but I've got 'em, and I'm not afraid to use them to protect my little web abode.
Anyway, 6 months, so far, so good. Naturally, YMMV.
rich.
Mr. O'Neill: Let's pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!
Daria: You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?
On Wed, 17 May 2000 18:54:00 GMT, [email] (Nicole Lee) wrote:
Well, the way I see it, there are threads worthy of my time, and threads that aren't worth the effort. It's sort of a personal Signal-to-Noise ratio sort of thing. If a thread gets too noisy, I just ignore the whole thing. This is a great way to preserve the old blood vessels. ;-)
Yeah, there are a lot of, um, let's see, how to put it... "Manners Challenged" folks who are displaying their disorders of late. I just ignore them and fight the urge to reply. I wholeheartedly recommend this to everyone else in the group. If you don't feed it, it dies-- a rule of nature that also applies to USENET.
As for getting mad at some random idjit who posts a bunch of noise-- why bother? It's just some random USENET troll, not someone you know or even someone worthy of your time and attention. The kicker is, many folks *know* it's a troll, but they get mad anyway and feel the urge to reply. I still don't understand that urge. LET IT GO, and spare us all. You'll thank yourself later. (And we'll thank you now. <g>)
Waitng for a decent on-topic thread or at least a good silly one, rich.
Jane: You know, I don't know why people say we have a bad attitude.
On 16 May 2000 22:12:14 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:
My fault. I bear an aura of entropy; all that I become a part of dissolves to chaos.
I'm fucking serious here. I have crushed 5 mailing lists, and driven *at least* 4 newsgroups to miserable wrecks. If I were a troll, I'd be proud of it.
I'm neither(*). Hence, I'm taking a vacation from this newsgroup; and if things improve, will only return in a casual format so as to minimize my destructive influence. I am also deleting all responses, other than this one, that I wrote today (so if you're in any arguments with me, I give you the last word.)
My sincere apologies to everyone.
* - of course, if any of you hates a group bad enough I might be persuaded to test whether I can intentionally disrupt...
Well, I'm aware that I'm going to add a Science Geek colouring to my reputation by saying this, but: where's the control? Do we know that mailing lists and newsgroups without Glenn Olson flourish and prosper? Or is there a natural life cycle, which you, Glenn, have observed, rather than caused?
Well, that's your choice, of course. I hope it's not too long a vaction. Look forward to welcoming you back.