EP #407 Thoughts and implications (Spoilers!)

*Spoiler space* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Ooookay we're here now. You know I think this was the most developmental ep ever. We see three story lines all take a step closer towards some resolve, or critical climax anyway. So, unless your name is Kevin Thompson, I believe we can gather that Helen and Jake are more towards some sort of seperation or major conflict in a definite way. This sorta saddens me. I really like them together. It's just sort of surprising to me that Quinn, or espeacially Daria, haven't seen the disintegration of their parents relationship lately. They didn't seem aware of this foreshadowing (which was laid on pretty thick tonite) I liked that Jake and Daria bonded, seeing as that relationship has been a bit strained, and we see that Jake does realize the current state of their father daughter relationship. I don't know exactly what to interpret from the Quinn/Sandi thing, but I sort of felt it was becoming more civil and that they were beginning to mature in this area. But then again i got very mixed messages. But one thing I *really* enjoyed was the final tear away from Kevin/Brittany and other supporting character themed eps, and get at the heart of these storylines, and character conflict they seem to have put on hold in the earlier eps.

well i guess that is all I really have to say. My favorite so far, and I can't wait to see Mike's reveiw. Peace people...I need some sleep.

cheryl

THE AUTHOR DOES NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR GRAMMATICAL ERRORS OR SPELLING OR OTHER POST PROBLEMS, BECAUSE SHE IS ABOUT TO FALL INTO A DEAD SLEEP ON THE KEYBOARD...GFWJBFERH..."oops, Did my head hit that again?"

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:42:22 GMT, wicka_chick wrote:

Honestly, I saw the exact opposite. This was a fun episode, but very inconsequential in the long scheme of things.

I don't see it at all. It's just like every other conflict on the show that doesn't directly involve Daria, it's being played over and over again without a hint of resolution. Helen and Jake have trouble with relating to each other. What's new?

Seemed like they agreed to maintain the status quo, as I recall. If anything, Jake's self-realization will help him with Helen.

See above 2 paragraphs. Helen/Jake don't have the spice, Quinn/Sandi snipe. So it has been since Season 1, so shall it ever be.

Totally agree. That it was nice tear away from school eps, anyway. Personally, I think this and the "Daria loves Tom" deal are examples of us hardcore fans reading way too much into everything. The show may have long-term story lines, but in order to be viable it has to appeal to people who haven't seen every episode 8 times, so that the meaning behind every raised eyebrow or look is abundantly clear.

Kyle, he who means well The Shane Andrews of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

One thing I'm surprised about is that no one has yet to comment on Stacy. This is the first we've seen her mad. And boy was she mad! Maybe she's finally growing some spine.

Skyrocket

"Skyrocket" wrote in message news:[email]...

Stacy.

She has issues. Unfortunately, she's only directing anger at her pillow right now. This is something to watch, though, if the Quinn-Sandi war really erupts and the other two have to take sides.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:41:19 -0400, "Jeg7777" wrote:

And I think Quinn/Staci Sandi/Tiffani are pretty obvious ways to go.

Kyle, he who means well The Shane Andrews of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

In article ,

In ILAP check out her reaction after the exhaust from the cars ruins their outfits, she shows a bit of anger there as well, nothing major yet, but these are baby steps toward Stacy's growing courage. She still has a long way to go, if she ever develops enough courage, she's the wild card in the Fashion Club power struggle, and could decide it once and for all.

A.J.

Cheese said:

Did you also notice that when Quinn had to pick *one* FC member to come to her house she picked Stacy? Sandi's assumption was that this was because Stacy would be the least likely to have a date; but maybe Quinn's real reason was that she realizes that Stacy's the only member of the FC who really *likes* her.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

In article ,

Hadn't thought of it that way. I believe you're right, we know her rivalry w/Sandi, Tiffany seems unlikely to be anyones friend so naturally this leaves Stacy. The only reason it may have taken this long for Quinn to show this, was Stacy's actions in "Gifted" spooked her for awhile, but has since seen Stacy for who she really is, a nice girl looking for acceptance/friendship.

A.J.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:04:27 -0500, Skyrocket wrote:

And speaking of Stacy. I thought it was nice how Quinn wanted Stacy over but not Tiffany and Sandi. Stacy is the nicest girl in the fascist club. I actually think she's nicer than Quinn. She's just being dragged along due to her weak personality even though I think what she really wants is just a shoulder to lean on. Even Quinn has her dark side. Just think of how she just uses guys and dumps them when they are not needed anymore (The end of PS is a good example, and there are the 3Js, too). I don't think Stacy thinks that way. She's more likely the victim. MSB

p.s.: Has anybody ever checked if abbreviating episodes with the 1st letters is unambiguous?

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:33:06 GMT, [email] (MSB) wrote:

An aspect of her personality that formed the basis of my first (and only) fanfic, "Sins of the Past." If you read it, be prepared: it's not really explicit or anything, but then again, it's not for the weak at heart.

Martin
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In article ,

But it is a truly excelent piece of writing, one of the best I've ever read. The only one I've been inpired to put music to :)

Phill.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:04:27 -0500, Skyrocket wrote:

Yeah, she sure did beat the hell out of that pillow, huh? And she *still* got pillow hair. ;-)

Her problems of dealing with humans, however, still seem to remain. She broke down the second she found out she wasn't invited to the party.

rich.

Mr. O'Neill: Let's pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!

Daria: You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?

Mr. O'Neill: The coffeehouse!

Kyle wrote:

(Spoilers snipped)

Hear hear. Reading into stuff too much seems to be a problem in a lot of fan communities.:\

On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:50:48 GMT, I_am_the_archon@Doom!.com (Len Pitre) wrote:

You learn it in school. Teacher's always interpret way more into a story than the authors put into it. And unless you agree with that and do it, too, you get bad grades. I'm actually not against this (except for the grade part) We should not be interested in what the author wrote into a story but in what we can get out of it. Normally you don't read a book or watch a movie to find out what the author(s) was/were thinking. You do it for the story. And that something got written into a story by accident rather than intention shouldn't keep us from enjoying the former as much as the latter. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:22:29 GMT, [email] (MSB) wrote:

I had a wonderful senior english teacher. We both loved Grapes of Wrath and Lord of the flies, the two books we read that year, and both completely disagreed on why they were great books. We'd go at it for hours and we loved it. Kyle

(Snip)

That's true. But then, I've never read anything outside of school by the authors I was forced to read in school. I found the stuff mostly banal in the first place, but then to have it beaten to death....

Len

In article ,

Yeah, I've often told myself I'd have got much better grades for english lit, if I could have studdied to books I wanted to :) Somehow though my teachers wouldn't have thought "Neverending Story" (don't be put off by the films read the book it's much better), and the works of Anne McCaffrey, where works of litrature. The sad thing is, I did grow to like "Watership Down", and I have come to apreciate in later life all the anti-war stuff my o-level teacher made us read. Never could stand Dickens tho :)

Phill.

<< and the works of Anne McCaffrey, >>

Dude! Another McCaffrey fan...I thought they didn't exist outside Pern fandom...

~Aabi former sci-fi buff "I wasn't always the waiter with stumps for hands. No! Once I was Eric, the waiter with hands for hands!" ~KITH

In article ,

Yeah have been for about 13 years now, I have met her in person a couple of times too :) If, you check out the Refferences: line of this post it should become blindingly obvious -> aurigae.ftt :) assuming you've read other books besides the Pern ones.

Phill.

<< Yeah have been for about 13 years now, I have met her in person a couple of times too :) If, you check out the Refferences: line of this post it should become blindingly obvious -> aurigae.ftt :) assuming you've read other books besides the Pern ones. >>

Lucky you. And yes, I have. Believe me, I had an Obsessive Phase...I go through those about once a year. The order was Anne McCaffrey, Sailor Moon/anime, and now Smashing Pumpkins.

~Aabi "I wasn't always the waiter with stumps for hands. No! Once I was Eric, the waiter with hands for hands!" ~KITH

On 17 Apr 2000 00:59:22 GMT, [email] (Suzie Q. Doe) wrote:

My obsessive phases (not including those involving long legs and bouncy...hair) all involve the Chicago Cubs (shut up Jeg!). Kyle

"Kyle" wrote in message

You mean none of the Cubs have long legs and bouncy hair? I'm disappointed. :-)

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:51:52 -0400, "Jeg7777" wrote:

Well, there was that ballgirl that Harry Caray used to drool over in the late 80s. She posed for Playboy at one point. can't remember her name. Kyle

"Kyle" wrote in message news:8dgou8$oon$[email]...

disappointed.

Of course she would do nothing to me. But more importantly, my naive young friend, Harry Caray was drooling because he was very very old. :-)

On 17 Apr 2000 02:29:28 GMT, herecomethehawks@hockeymail.....com (Kyle) wrote:

LOL Kyle.

rich.

"Joseph Stalin, grab my armored muu-muu and together we will leave this foul Earth behind." -- Toon-La.

In article ,

Heheheh well my current obsession seems to be Daria Morgendorffer :)

Phill.

On 16 Apr 2000 23:34:57 GMT, [email] (Suzie Q. Doe) wrote:

They do. We're scattered around here and there. I have to admit that I never could get into Pern fandom, though... I dunno why, but I felt that it kinda diminished my enjoyment of the books. *shrug* I still read 'em every now and then, though.

rich.

Daria: Ahh, magic time.

<< They do. We're scattered around here and there. I have to admit that I never could get into Pern fandom, though... I dunno why, but I felt that it kinda diminished my enjoyment of the books. *shrug* I still read 'em every now and then, though. >>

I've been doing Pern Fandom for so long that it's become more interesting than the books...that's just because I and my friends have come up with good ways to twist and distort things...

~Aabi "I wasn't always the waiter with stumps for hands. No! Once I was Eric, the waiter with hands for hands!" ~KITH

Phill Harvey-Smith wrote:

Wowozowo, you're one of only two people I've heard mention the book "The Neverending Story". I was introduced to it by my previous boyfriend, it's his all-time favorite book. And I must say that it IS exceedingly awesome and worthy, it's a favorite of mine as well. I certainly consider it a work of literature. So, to anyone who likes a lovely fantasy adventure story that really IS better than the movie, do try to find it! The author is Michael Ende. Enjoy. :)

--J.

Jessia Liotta said:

It *is* a really great book. In a way it's a "meta-fiction" ... it's a story about stories.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote in :

Yes, and if you look at it closely there are also some quite complex principals in there but yeah really good book.

By the way his previous book "Momo" is the place I first came across the name Daria, which is stange and on topic in a way :)

Phill.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:24:16 +0000, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

And the "Momo" movie is great, too. Too bad it never made it across the Atlantic. So you'll have a hard time finding a copy in the US. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

In article ,

They made a movie of that too ? Dammit, looks like it never made it across the channel either :)

Phill.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

I love that book, it was one of my favourites as a child.

On 17 Apr 2000 00:01:51 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

Well, the never-ending story isn't appropriate for English literature. It's German literature. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

MSB wrote:

I don't know what language this book was written in (originally), but in my English Lit classes, English referred to the language we were studying it in, not to the nationality of the author. IIRC, we studied various mythologies, as well as books written by non-American or non-British authors.

--Jan

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:33:56 -0700, Janevieve Harrison wrote:

It was written in German. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

In article ,

Yeah but still good litrature all the same :)

Phill.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:50:48 GMT, I_am_the_archon@Doom!.com (Len Pitre) wrote:

I agree. Sometime's a cigar's just a cigar. My favorite theory, which has been advanced by others in other Daria fan fora as well, is that a lot of fans project far too much of what they'd *like* to believe about the characters onto them, and take far too *little* of what they see at face value.

This behavior reminds me of something I learned in psychology classes while I was an undergrad at UNC-- we tend to ascribe positive attributes to people we agree with and like, and we tend to ascribe negative attributes to those we tend to disagree with and dislike. Hence, I might say that I think that Jake is a better character than he may be intended to be, simply because we share a personality trait or two. This is a sign of lazy thinking, IMO. Jake is Jake. No more, no less. Same even goes for Daria-- she has her good points as a character, but she also has blind spots and her own imperfections. She's neither a demon nor a saint. If she was either, she'd be dreadfully dull to watch for more than about 3 episodes.

And I'm not even going to touch how much fanfiction has probably confused the issue in some fans' minds. Don't get me wrong, fanfic is fun and all, but fans need to keep everything straight. ;-)

Three cheers for Occam's Razor!

rich.

Quinn: People are so weird!

Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:00:13 -0400, paperpusher wrote:

Precisely why I *hate* fanfic. I've read maybe 3 or 4 I ever liked.

I can't describe to you how hard I shudder when I see the phrase "What would Daria do?"

Amen.

*cuts himself shaving with Occam's Razor* ow! Kyle

On 17 Apr 2000 15:51:43 GMT, herecomethehawks@hockeymail.....com (Kyle) wrote:

Well, some of it is very good, but you have to take into account that it's really speculative fiction-- an exercise in tinkering with elements of the show. Like all experiments, sometimes they succeed, sometimes they explode in your face. ;-) There're some really good stories out there. In fact, one of the fascinating things I've noticed, and I think it speaks well of the show, is that there are gobs and gobs of fanfic being written, and more and more every day. It shows that the MTV "Daria" folks have done an excellent job of creating characters and plotlines that resonate well with the viewers.

Of course, there's still no excuse for getting the two confused with each other. ;-)

Heh. Well it is, after all is said and done, a cartoon. A damn fine cartoon, but a cartoon nonetheless.

Maybe you should try Occam's Electric Razor instead...

rich.

Jane: You know, I don't know why people say we have a bad attitude.

Daria: Screw 'em.

Wicka Chick said:

Yep. It says something really bad that Helen is asking *Sandi* and *the Three J's* for relationship advice.

I think that Helen truly loves Jake, but she can't deal with his total inability to understand the things she tries to tell him. He, OTOH, can't deal with her frequent absences from his life; he clearly feels abandoned (note the flashback to "Little Jakey" on the rope).

It's quite likely that Daria is aware of it ... but what is she supposed to do about it? It's also possible that she isn't aware of it ... because after all, her parents have probably been fighting "forever" from her viewpoint, and she may have a naive faith that they'll stay together "forever". As I said, I think Daria's *very* monogamous.

Oh, btw, wasn't Sandi's makeover of Helen hideous? And deliberately so?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On 15 Apr 2000 06:21:43 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

"Me too." Not much to add to that statement....

Yup. They're just not on the level and the spice isn't in their marriage. They've been getting at this for quite some time - since season 1 in Pinch Sitter (episode 8) actually. And sadly enough it *is* a common event in American households these days anyway...

While I can see your first point as possible, I haven't seen any evidence for or against the latter. Chalk that one up to "impossible to, until evidence arrives."

All five looked like a matching set of harpies :P

Yeah. We saw that underneath his really rather goofy exterior he *does* care for his family, and is very much like Daria...notice both the similarity and tenderness of their thoughts and the totally idiotic discussion they had after thinking them :)

All in all, excellent ep, and a decent end to the first half of the season...even if the Tom thing isn't resolved (which, knowing Glenn et al will be dragged out for another 3 or 4 seasons just to make everyone howl :)

Damon Orca on #Stars!

Which may be the only thing to _save_ Jake & Helen's relationship - if Jake can learn to actually _talk_ to Helen instead of babbling. We know now that regardless of the "D'oh!"-ification of Jake over the past couple of years, there really is an intelligent, thoughtful man hiding behind that confused little boy facade, waiting to be let out. [Kind of an anti-Daria, really. She appears completely composed and mature, hiding her impulses for fun from most -- he appears totally impulsive and immature, hiding an actual maturity and composure... LET IT OUT, JAKE! :) ]

And why, oh why didn't Helen at least take that crap off her face when she went to bed?! I mean *ugh*.

Don

Don Morris said:

Yes ... I certainly hope so. It would be sad to see Jake and Helen break up for good.

Jake's problem is that he lets his anger and fear ... his negative emotions ... rule him. He's so busy either being angry at people or afraid of what might happen that it paralyzes his intellect and his ability to listen or communicate with others.

I suspect that Daria learned how *not* to behave by watching Jake. One other point: Daria's parents may be *annoying* at times, but they really do love her, and show it; she never had to suffer the kind of abuse that Jake's father obviously put her through. Daria's immense emotional strength and willpower are partially a heritage from Helen, but they might not have developed well in the sot of environment Jake grew up in.

Helen was too upset about the way her life with Jake is falling apart to even *realize* how bizarre she looked.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

Abandon all hope, ye who fail to add spoiler space here... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . On 15 Apr 2000 15:53:42 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

It's a "Daria"/"The Drew Carrey Show" crossover... say hello to Mimi Morgendorffer! :-)

Martin
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I think they're setting us up for Helen's big affair with Eric. Note the flirtatious edge to their conversation?

However, I can't see Jake leaving Helen. Jake is...well...a WIMP. He would prolly lose his temper, stomp around, sulk and be upset for a few...DAYS...or so, but he'd come running back, tail between his legs.

I think Helen is falling out of love with Jake. However, Jake still loves Helen, and I don't think that will ever change.

I think

I don't think Daria will take things very well.

I thought it was simply...DIVINE. ;-)

--.\\<-H--

In article , [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

Agreed, possibly in the movie.

He's too much of a wimp to even consider leaving her, if anyone leaves the relationship, it will be Helen.

Not at all, her ties to her parents have strengthened, see this ep and PC, she knows they're trying and admires them for it. I don't think she'd be able to take sides should a seperation take place, she'd try to play marriage counselor as best she could, as she prolly believes they should stay together, if not for her sake, for Quinn's.

LOL!

A.J.

Cheese said:

I agree.

Being "marriage counselor" when it's your parents' relationship in trouble is a horribly painful role. If you fail, you blame *yourself* for the breakup.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

In article , Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

In article <NOPEmhassSEVENOHTHREE-1504000937150001@216-59-0- 202.usa.flashcom.net>, [email]

deliberately so?

LOL! I wonder how many people will get that?

I get it(I think).Poor Helen did look like Divine from Pink Flamingos,which I've never seen,but have seen Divine.I've never seen any John Waters films come to think of it,except for Serial Mom,which I thought was funny and twisted.

<< .I've never seen any John Waters films come to think of it,except for Serial Mom,which I thought was funny and twisted. >>

Go see Hairspray.

~Aabi "I wasn't always the waiter with stumps for hands. No! Once I was Eric, the waiter with hands for hands!" ~KITH

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:37:14 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

Yeah. Her face became all sunshine while talking to him. She reminded me of a little girl who had just fallen in love. MSB

---- By the way: Vacuum cleaners suck!

In article ,

Also note her expressions to when she's talking with Eric. The first such sign since "Daria!" She and Jake do love each other, but she's just frustrated with him and his antics. Maybe she sees Eric as a chance to spice up her life?

Yep, he feels abandoned by seemingly everyone, from his father, to now with Helen. There must be something between them that attracted them to each other in the first place, which has disappeared since both of them turned from hippie to career driven people, which they need to find again, but what and how?

If anything happened, Daria would be completely torn. After this ep. she realizes her father may not be too bright, but he tries to do what he can in their relationship, and she respects this. Her relationship with Helen has been blossoming a bit as well, look at PC. She knows both of them are trying and she admires this, but won't let themselves be completely thrown into parenting. I don't think she could be one to choose sides if a seperation would occur, Quinn on the other hand is another story all together, I'd have no idea how she'd react to a seperation.

See the conversation on the plane, or rather their thoughts, Jake's not completely oblivious, he sees his little girls' loneliness, he knows theres something to it, he's just never bothered to dig deeper to find out why. We also see Daria's thoughts as well, and she nailed him right on the head. He's just too afraid or angry withthings in his world to try to be a better father, and she does admire him, she just can't bring herself to admit it either.

The tension there is escalating, yet becoming more civil at the same time. The hair-chopping dreams prove they're still rivals, but that they're taking this rivalry too far, perhaps? Note how they both woke up in a start, I think they both want a end of the rivalry in some way, before it escalates beyond the point of no return.

They're not bad characters, but overuse of them is causing people to get sick of them. Good to see them out of the spotlight for an ep. and concentrate on the relationships of the Morgerdorffer family.

An excellent character development ep. I believe the writers thought MTV would go with a 6/7 split this year like last, and never meant these eps to be aired together without the mid season break in between. With this ep in the shadows of ILAP, it's naturally going to seem a bit lackluster, but still a strong ep. Again an ending with something missing, I was expecing one more scene at the Morgendorffer house with the 3 J's, Helen, and the Fashion club, it was begging for one more scene, placed before the final scene at the oddities museum. Jake and Daria's bonding scene was good although a bit short, they could've found more to talk about than shoe sizes. Still a strong B for this one.

Only 2 1/2-3 months to the next episode, <sigh>,

A.J.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:07:28 GMT, [email] wrote:

At least Sandi wants to end the rivalry. She's talking an awful lot about throwing Quinn out of the fashion club in this season unlike earlier when she used to joke about being impeached and replaced by Quinn. Have you noticed how she didn't even ask Quinn for her reasons before relieving her of her VP duties. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

In article , Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

But ... every makeover I have ever seen in RL looked exactly like that. I have never understood the point to them.