As much as my guesses will be way off, it's still fun to work them to how I would the Daria series finale to be.
For me, I would love a conclusion that has Daria, Tom, Jodie and Mack going to the same college. As for Jane, she and Daria learn to accept that they will going their separate ways from now on, but at least Jane can be assured that Daria's entry into college will not be like high school.
Whereas Daria entered Lawndale High as an aloof and alone kid in a world with no one who could understand her, now Daria will be entering college a more relaxed young woman with an inner core of friends who know, understand and respect her well as she starts this new phase in her life.
On the other hand, Quinn leaves the Fashion Club to buckle down on to prepare for college, which forces her to cut seriously back on her dating and similar activities, and yet she finds that she doesn't miss it..
How about it ending with Brittany ending up her roommate? Oh the horror! Or Lynn Cullen making a guest appearance? Daria ending up in a Co-Ed dorm with both Brit *and* Kevin? That or just get rid of Tom, or all of the above.
Mel Parker "Being Irish, I have an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustains me through temporary periods of joy." W.B.Yeats
Ahh. Since I'm not a fanfic reader, I didn't know about that Lynn Cullen. The one I'm talking about is a TV quasi-journalist, who has a show on the Pittsburgh Cable News Channel (a production of WPXI - 11 News). Not a pleasant person.
That'll never happen. While it's possible that the Fashion Club as an organization will disolve, it's very unlikely that any one of them will leave unless her family leaves Lawndale. After "Fat Like Me", it's become clear that the four of them really do consider themselves to be friends. Stacy and Tiffany really do like Quinn quite a bit, and Quinn enjoys their company as well (believe it or not, Quinn really does enjoy talking about boys and fashion and what's going on around the school, and she is going to continue enjoying those things for quite a while, no matter how well she starts applying herself to her school work). Sandi, meanwhile, has learned that Quinn is her only real friend, willing to stand by her even after all the awful things she done.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (Kenneth Chisholm) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 08 Oct 2001:
I *wouldn't* like it to end! *whine*
That having been said, I want to see Daria and Jane staying close friends, even if they don't go to the same college (or if Jane doesn't go to college at all). Seeing them simply go their separate ways would be heartbreaking. I'd also like to see Tom and Daria remain together, maybe even get engaged.
On the other hand, I'd love to Kevin and Brittany break up. Brittany deserves someone better. Not *much* better, but better. ^_^
As for Quinn and the Fashion Club, well, anyone who's read my fanfics knows how I want that story to go. And I solemnly promise not to complain about plagiarism if it happens. (I'd be too busy falling off my chair in shock to complain!)
I'd also like to see Mr. DeMartino find happiness. I know how I'd like to see it happen, but I'm not saying anything, just on the off chance that they're already planning on doing it, but somebody from MTV will read this and make them change the script to avoid copyright problems. (What? They read *all* my posts! They support me in E-mails! ^_^)
As for the rest of the characters...I'll have to think about it. Thanks for starting this interesting thread!
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...
friendships
Yes that's true, but there will be months, sometimes years, before you hook up with those people again. I'm still in contact with my best friend in high school to this day.
We did lose touch for a number of years after high school but we eventually hooked back up. Which was pretty amazing because my best friend blazed out of town and never looked back...
Hey everyone's guesses will be as good as everyone's else's. And it is fun to speculate. That's why God created fan fics.
Yeah, like...like... 90210!
Eichler and Co. have never taken the easy way out on this series so I don't think they'll be going to the same school together. Which I suspect will be one of the conflicts of the movie.
I do think the two of them will split up for a time, but they will remain
friends.
>Whereas Daria
entered Lawndale High as an aloof and alone kid in a
Agreed. Boxing Daria hinted as much.
This season we got a Quinn who was confident enough to admit Daria was her sister and a Fashion Club that has evolved a bit. I think Quinn's maturity will continue now that Daria will not be in her life as much.
I may horrify some people by saying this, but I'd sort of like Daria
and Tom to break up. Things like that happen. It actually seems sort of
fitting for Daria to start out at college with no other friends at the place.
The very last scene could show her walking up to some new, previously
unintroduced character and striking up a conversation. There could be a
hint that things would turn out differently from high school, but all
the details would be left up to the viewers' imagination.
If Tom and Daria _don't_ break up, they should have sex.
I think Quinn should find a long-term boyfriend. I always liked that David guy from IIFY.
Call me weird, but I actually think it would be cool if B&B showed up. The chance of it actually happening has got to be near zero though.
Is it known yet _when_ IICY will be coming along? If there's any justice in the world, it should be preceded by a Daria ultra-marathon including every episode ever aired.
"Kevin" wrote in message > I may horrify some people by saying this, but I'd sort of like Daria
place.
I say nay! Daria and Tom have worked too hard to make this relationship work to have them break up now. As for college, at the very minimum I want Jodie to be there so Daria won't have to face this different world on her own.
Perhaps. I would like their relationship to enter another level as it prepares for the long haul until college graduation.
I think this would be better than the standard "We're all going to the same college ... and it's in the same town we already live in!!!" that usually happens in TV. The important thing for the character is not that she's learned to appreciate the people in her life (Well, that's important too) but that she doesn't have to be alone and alienated all the time. It would be nice to see her alone and unhappy at first at college and then reaching out.
Yeah, I think so. It should also be (tastefully) established that she
I'd like to see her stay in the fashion club (which has evolved a lot). AFter all, there's nothing wrong with being interested in makeup and fashion and dates and boys (as long as that's not all you're interested in, and it's been established that Quinn, and probably Stacey do have broader interests, while still being interested in fashion and makeup and ...) . Quinn can excercise her brain without becoming a grind (like her sister). And for a more or less steady boyfriend, I think David would be pretty good for her, since he's not overwhelmed by her popularity.
I think it could be good, but it would have to be done right, and damned if I could figure out how that could be done (they're janitors at the college?)
How about a nice friendly family outing at pizza forrest before Daria moves to college? With B&B ending up working there? Or making side comments about the singing (i.e. "this video sucks" "it's not a video buttmunch" "is too" "is not" - scene ends with them beating eachother up of course). wait, none of that would qualify as well done... oh well!
*beat*
I must have an odd sense of humor.
Mel Parker "We're all capable of mistakes, but I do not care to enlighten you on the mistakes we may or may not have made."-Vice President Al Gore
I think Daria, Jodie, and Mack will be going to the same college. I'd like Tom to go to the same college as well, but I doubt he will. However, I would really like him and Daria to stay together, as I like Tom. Or if that doesn't happen, I'd like them to remain friends.
As for Jodie, I hope she finally frees herself from all the pressure her father lays upon her (and she lays upon herself). Heck, the girl needs a break and Mack needs Jodie to be there for him more!
I think Jane and Daria will remain best friends, even if they go their separate ways.
"Boxing Daria" is the beginning of that process for Daria.
Wouldn't mind that ending for Quinn. I'd also like to see Stacy leave the Fashion Club and develop her backbone enough to tell Sandi off. I know Corvus Marinus likes Sandi, but Sandi's still too much of a tyrant, and that's not healthy for someone like Stacy -- or Quinn, for that matter. And maybe it'll help Sandi see what she's doing and mend her ways.
As for the others, I'd like to see Mr. DeMartino find some happiness in his teaching position -- especially with dummies Brittany & Kevin out of his hair forever. I'd like to see Upchuck abandon his Hugh Hefner act -- it'll permanently prevent him from getting a girlfriend. I'd also like to see Ms. Li get what's coming to her -- but don't we all want to see that happen? :)
That's about it so far. If I think of anything else, I'll mention it.
I hope so for all their sake. Daria needs familiar faces when she enters college and since Jane won't be there, Mack and Jodie would be wonderful companions since, outside Jane, they are only ones at Lawndale High who truly understand her.
like Tom
doesn't
I certainly hope their relationship continues. Anyone with Tom's intelligence and patience with Daria and her insecurities is too wonderful a man to lose for her.
father
and
And I bet Daria can be that moderating influence to help Mack convince Jodie to relax.
separate
No doubt.
Corvus
not
it'll
Well, after just seeing "Fat Like Me," I could see Sandi begin to change her ways. Still, it would be better that Quinn and Stacy get away from her constant presence.
his
hair
If not, he could take over as the head of the "Okay to Cry Corral" to recharge his teaching batteries. :-).
I'd like to see Upchuck abandon his Hugh Hefner act -- it'll
How about a girl counters with a Mae West act and he's really for a loop!
Speaking from experience, it doesn't matter how wonderful he is if he doesn't also adapt to Daria's changing. Sometimes the men that are so good to have while you're getting your head together aren't the best to have around when you've finished. They still treat you like you're broken, which generally leads to some nasty fights. Protectors are great when they protect, they're not so wonderful when they coddle. I could see Tom getting in the habit of directing Daria's life (in his subtle supportive way) and keeping it up long after her need for it has passed. And I could see Daria, with the confidence that he's encouraged in her, finally snapping and giving him the sharp edge of her tongue. They'd split up, and might not exactly get along for a while, but eventually become friends again, just not really close ones.
"You're story is good. Don't give up on it." Yeah, he's really trying to control her life, isn't he.
Pembleton: Do you think some people work harder to be stupider than others? Bayliss: I'm going to go out on a limb and say, "yes." — Homicide: Life on the Street
"Tephra Adularia" wrote in message news:3bc4b167$0$1526$[email]...
like Tom
would
wonderful a
doesn't
have
when
they're
of
long
confidence
edge of
but
That's an interesting observation.
I could actually see that happening in the long run. Given Daria's fiercely independent nature, at least up to Season 5, I could see her rebel and then strike out on her own again.
Or she might become like her mother and try and take charge (see Jake)
How would Mr. Sloane handle that?
My guess is that he wouldn't and then, to quote your scenario, "They'd split up, and might not exactly get along for a while, but eventually become friends again, just not really close ones."
I don't know when I started to notice it, and I can't point to an episode since I don't have them on tape (*sigh*) but there was definitely a point where the light went on completely with little 'bing!' He just struck me as trying to *change* Daria, forcing her to conform to his vision of her.
While it could be argued his vision is 'better' it's certainly not *right* to change someone to fit your view of them. (Been there, done that, from both sides.) And having had someone I loved (or thought I did at the time) try to change me in a similar way (loosen up, don't take things so seriously, etc) having Tom start to show signs of something similar set of alarms.
Of course having admitted to the personal experience puts my evaluation into the 'suspected projection of emotion' category. But from what I've seen for posts I'd say my category isn't as empty as people might like to think. :)
Note that I only got to see two season 5 episodes, and neither was all that focused on Daria (well Fizz Ed could be construed that way but it's not really that much of a 'get in Daria's head' episode).
I've not see any hints of Daria getting a take charge attitude. She's the sort that prefers to do the planning and let someone else take the spot light. But the genetics and subconscious patterns are there I suppose.
Um. "Not at ALL well?" :) Jane had some domineering tendencies (in a self centered 'my art comes first' way) and we saw how that worked out.
Which I think is a lot more realistic than them sticking together for life. But I'm feeling pretty cynical today.
And there used to be people who didn't think a man would land on the moon. Were they wrong? Everyone has opinions. Also what's with the "too"? You never know who might be right.
Mel Parker (Who thinks Hitler is a guy in Afghanistan)
"Kenneth Chisholm" wrote in message news:GxNw7.227803$[email]...
a
I agree...and I'm a Daria/Trent-shipper. This is what I suspect might happen though;
Tom will easily be able to pay his way into college, since his family is rich. The Morgendorffers aren't exactly in the same class as the families of Grace, Sloane & Paige, so Tom will try to pay for Daria's tutition as well. This may bring some tension for Daria & Tom, challenging her ethics as an independent young woman, which hopefully will work out between them around the middle of the picture. Perhaps they'll go to college together and share a room off-campus, or something and yes even feel ready to have sex. Glenn said he wanted to end the series on a high note.
I think they're moving in that direction already. In "My Night at Daria's"(#512), Jodie tried to convince Daria that it was okay for Daria & Tom to relax and give in to their presumed sexual desires, but danced around whether or not Mack & Jodie were giving into their own. I doubt there'd be as much "shame" involved if it weren't for all the adult/parental pressure. The closer they get to graduation, the more time they'll have together.
Nahh, that'll never happen. Mr. D is duty bound to teach, but he'll always run into someone with the I.Q. level of Kevin & Brittany, which is one of the reasons he's so aggravated about it all the time.
I still think regardless of his act, he's been growing on Stacy since "Life in the Past Lane"(#509). Throughout Season 5 we've been seeing her grow into her own person, totally separate from the rest of the Fashion Club. Maybe deciding on her own which boys to go out with is part of that process.
If that's the case, hopefully he'll have enough sense to go along with her.
Yeah ... I think that if anyone should be having sex, Mack and Jodie should. They're not only long-time sweethearts, they're best friends.
One great irony in _IIFY_ is that it was made totally obvious that DiMartino actually cares more about the kids than O'Neal does, despite O'Neal's great show of concern. Indeed, the _reason_ why DiMartino is so bitter is that he _does_ care, and he's seen one too many good mind go to waste while idiots have been coddled.
I think what you meant to say was that Tom's parent's will easily be ably to pay his way through college, because they are rich.
However, given his choice of transportation and wardrobe, and his reaction whenever anyone mentions his parents, evidence points to Tom desiring to be self-sufficient and not having to depend upon his parents for anything other than a roof over his pre-high school gratuation head. This probably means he would prefer to pay for college himself via scholarships, student loans and/or a part time job.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
That's the one thing I find remarkable about the Sloanes. The Morgendorffer and Barksdale clans (outside of Amy, of course) are repelled by Daria's tone and personality, and yet the Sloanes like her. I know they know she definately college bound, but Tom's quick explanation doesn't seem to be sufficient.
So, why do you think they like her? Could it be they have perceptive to appreciate her sense of humour and intelligence, or is there more to it?
We've never seen Helen's mother at all, and have no idea what her feelings toward Daria are.
Jake's mother certainly didn't appear "repelled" in Jake of Hearts. Her reaction to Daria was along the same lines as her reaction to Quinn and Helen.
Beyond saying hello to Daria in I Don't, Rita's never spoken to Daria on screen. Daria doesn't speak to any adult at the wedding, other than Amy and the Minister.
Erin actually seems perfectly happy to see Daria.
Maybe because when she's around Tom's parents, she acts the same way she used to when she was around Trent (that, "I wants these people to like me, so I can't say anything because if I do, those mean and ugly cutdowns I use to drive strangers away and to drive my parents away by hurting their feelings anytime they try to talk about something that makes me uncomfortable will come out automatically, since I've been using that defense mechanism for so long that it's turned into a bad habbit I do without thinking, and that will make these people not like me" thing), so that their impression of her is that of an intelligent but painfully shy young woman.
Kay wishes to sacrifice her to The Black Goat of the Woods With A Thousand Young.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
To a good degree, she is very shy. Daria has long cultivated this cool reserve to keep everyone away except for those like her family, Jane, Trent, Tom, Mack and Jodie who have taken the time to understand her. Now she faces the challenge of meeting people, emotionally, half way and that is really out of her experience.
I would hope she could learn to use her wit in a way that can charm people while still keeping her personal integrity.
Odds are she will. I think by the end of season 5 she's figured out that there are people out there who accept and love her for whom she is -- her parents, her sister, her best and closest friend, her boyfriend -- as well as those who aren't going to reject her because of her intelligence or skewed sense of humor (as Daria matures socially, whatever minor clashes she has with Jodie will lessen; if asked, all the guys from Mystic Spiral would probably say she's cool; Kevin and Brittany like her, even though they thinks she's weird; Mack seems to like her; the Three Js don't seem to have any problem with her and probably even have some memory of her helping them get Quinn back from her psuedointellectual phase; her teachers all seem to like her). With this comes the realization that there's nothing inherrently dangerous about cassually knowing people. So while she may keep her walls up until she starts to trust someone, there's no need to gun down everyone who wanders near them.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
And on the flip side, there are few people who actively dislike Daria. Among other teens, probably only Sandi Griffin; on the faculty, Morris (and possibly Manson). Some one-time characters like Skip Stevens and Tommy Sherman. Most of these people really don't like anybody.
I'm sure Sandi doesn't like Daria, but I'm not convinced that Daria shows up on Sandi's radar screen very often. Daria is simply not a very important issue in Sandi's life, and vice-versa.
Not really direct. If you've seen "Quinn the Brain", you'll recall that Sandi is just plain afraid of a confrontation with Daria - in that episode she tries to confront Daria over Quinn's black clothing and ends up gulping a few times and running away.
In "The New Kid" Sandi is angry at Daria over the yearbook changes (pages to be taken away from traditional activities including the Fashion Club) and announces to the rest of the FC that she's the best one to talk to Daria about it because she (Sandi) is so "intimidating". But when Quinn offers to do it instead, Sandi lets Quinn do it.
In "Lucky Strike", Sandi is angry at Daria for giving her a D-minus grade, but tries to take it out on Quinn instead.
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (MMan37x) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 14 Oct 2001:
Good heavens! I must be slipping - Steve's original post slipped past my Sandi-radar. (I'm sure the regulars here were all wondering what happened to me. ^_^)
My own view is that Sandi doesn't actively dislike Daria - she doesn't know what to make of her at all. She's only shown actual hostility to Daria twice, IIRC - in "The New Kid" and "Lucky Strike," as MMan pointed out - and in both cases Daria was getting in the way of something Sandi wanted (Fashion Club photos in the yearbook, a passing grade in English). But in "The Misery Chick" Sandi asked Daria for advice (and paid her $10!), and in "Just Add Water" Sandi accepts Daria's word that Marco called Quinn.
Another note on "Lucky Strike" - Sandi's nastiness to Daria was, in my opinion, directed as much at Quinn as at Daria, since Sandi assumed that Daria would show favoritism to Quinn, she was annoyed that Quinn was defending Daria without admitting their relationship, and she was angry that Quinn couldn't convince Daria to give them all good grades.
One of the reasons I find the show so endlessly fascinating is the care paid to the details of the supporting characters' lives. A lot of shows basically set up outlines of characters and leave it up to the audience to fill in the blanks; shows like 'Daria' invite the audience to put the pieces together and speculate about what isn't shown, which is much more rewarding.
I think Sandi's the type to hold a grudge over a couple confrontations - and toss in her generalized dislike of "brains" (Sandi always says "brains" with such scathing contempt), and I think it can safely be assumed Sandi seethes a bit every time she sees Daria.
Maybe my use of the word "actively" was misleading. I don't think Sandi spends time plotting against Daria.
I think that Sandi finds Daria scary because Daria is obviously self-confident and yet completely incomprehensible. Sandi normally manipulates others through pulling levers of contempt or approval -- Daria merely laughs at such attempts. Sandi has no notion of how to manipulate Daria, and thus Daria is uncontrollable, and thus dangerous.
While Daria is confident with her intellectual abilities, she has little or no self confidence for social interaction. While she's perfectly able to mouth off or insult people who's oppinions she cares nothing about, when it comes to meaningful communication with people, she chokes.
Or as Helen said, describing what she sees is easy; voicing her true feelings, fears and desires is what is truly difficult for Daria.
As one example, she's too scared to tell Jane -- the person she trusts most -- how she's afraid of losing her as a friend, so instead of voicing her concerns to Jane and talking them out, she covers her true feelings by acting incredibly ugly toward Jane and her new boyfriend (be it Evan or Tom, and to a lesser degree, Nathan).
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Hw�t! We have heard of the glory of [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) that wrote news:[email], on the day of 16 Oct 2001:
My feeling is that Daria is scary to Sandi on more of a gut level: to Sandi, an unpopular girl who evidently doesn't care that she's unpopular is like an alien life form. (Not that she's all that scary - Sandi wasn't too scared of her to try to give her a makeover in "I Loathe A Parade.") Sandi generally shows little interest in manipulating Daria because Daria generally doesn't threaten Sandi's social world; she'd only be dangerous (and Sandi would only be interested in manipulating her) if she were popular, like Quinn is.
I suspect that Sandi and Daria have essentially the same view of each other: that crazy girl who hangs out with Quinn and wastes her time on unimportant nonsense.
With a handful of exceptions (Lucky Strike, The Misery Chick, Quinn the Brain), it appears that the only times Daria ever shows up on Sandi's radar are the times Sandi feels Daria might be a tool to use against Quinn. Beyond that, Daria is just a nonentity to Sandi.
However, that may change after Lucky Strike, but the lack of follow up the rest of the season make things inconclusive at best.
On the other hand, prior to Mart of Darkness, Andrea did dislike Daria and Jane (specifically, their habbit of mocking and looking down on anyone who didn't live up to their impossible standards; drawing parallels between this and similar behavior by the Fashion Club is an exercise I leave to the reader) and has gone out of her way to avoid drawing their attention. This appeared to have changed in Mart of Darkness, but again, the lack of followup leaves the fate of the situation unclear.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
That's exactly my point about her earlier "rigidity" -- she was assuming that she had to either totally love someone or totally reject them, but most of the people you meet in life are simply casual acquaintances or friends. Everyone isn't going to be your best friend.
Both of her grandmothers did promise her $100 if she changed her appearence. They obviously don't like her look or her attitude. They must think if she tries to make herself look like a debutaunt or something, she'll "feel better about herself," and make tons of friends regardless of whether or not she thinks they're all idiots.
Helen.
Well, yeah. But Ruth was disappointed that she looked the same as she did the last time she saw her, which I assume was in Junior High, wasn't it?
In that case, they're not very wise. Daria would probably feel worse about herself if she tried to make herself look like a debutant, since that's not really Daria. True, she'd make tons of friends, but what's more important, the * quantity * of friends that you have, or the * quality * of friends? Personally, I'd go with quality over quantity any day.
All of which makes the Sloanes' quick acceptance of Daria all the more remarkable. It could be partially explained if they learn that, on top of her obvious intelligence and wit, she is friends with her school's student leader and the Football team captain and a talented artist.
They could interpret it that Daria is simply very selective with her friends and gets only the best.
She makes the honor roll (even if it's at public school) and, because she was extremely nervous around them when she first met them, but still wanted them to like her, she didn't say much (pretty much identical to the way she used to be around Trent), Kay and Angier probably came away with the impression that she was a smart but shy young woman. On top of this, Tom clearly likes her a /lot/ and appears to be in this for the long haul. Plus, he appears to be happy when he's with her.
The fact that her father owns his own business and her mother is a successful attorney don't hurt.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Daria could dress like Quinn and it really wouldn't change her social situation that much. It's her /behavior/ that drives people away.
The only change would be the number of people whom she has to drive away with insults and venom before she exposes her true self to them and they ridicule her (it doesn't matter if they would or not, Daria has already decided that they will at some point, so best to drive them away now before she starts to trust them, making the inevitable "betrayal" all the more painful).
The real reason she dresses that way is to try to drive people way /before/ she has to talk to them, and at some point it, like her cassual insults, became an ingrained habbit.
Notice how, in Road Worrier, she feels she needs to change her appearance in order to make a good impression on Trent. The same way she stops talkingaround him in order to keep from tossing out insults without thinking (the same behavior that Jane can't understand -- to her, Trent is just some guy; she's known him all her life and to her he's not that big a deal as far as guys go -- and is often annoyed by, as witnessed in Ill).
==========
Daria - Get burger? Hmm... okay. This place does put me in the mood for meat.
Jane - Cool. I'll tell Trent we're going with him.
Daria - With... Trent?
Jane - Yeah, the band's going over to Cluster Burger. You're not going to act like a complete nitwit, are you?
How odd. It's like you decided I said something completely different just so you could repeat the same thing I said the first time.
Once again ... Jane can not understand why Daria walks on eggshells around Trent. Jane never acts differently around guys she likes (or "appreciates" if you will). She may join the track team or try the retro scene on a lark, but her behavior never changes around people like Evan, Nathan, Brad, Bret, or Tom. So this whole "oh, if I act the way I normally do, he won't like me" thing that Daria did around Trent is something fairly alien to her. She doesn't understand why Daria would be like that around any guy, but especially can't understand why she'd act like that around Trent. To Jane, "it's just Trent." She's seen him at his worst and knows countless embaressing secrets about him (like that hair-glam metal phase he went through in jr. high). No matter how much she loves him as her brother -- and even then, he tries her patience a lot -- she can't understand why Daria "I'm Daria, go to hell" Morgandorfer turns into such a spineless jellyfish around him. Daria's suposed to be above caring about whether or not someone likes her attitude, or being embaressed about what people think about her. Jane can't understand why the seemingly outspoken smart and cynical girl she became friends with turns into this shy little mouse around a guy whom Jane may love but doesn't see as being that impressive as far as boyfriend material goes. From Jane's point of view, "it's just Trent, and while sure he's sort of cute, Daria's so much smarter and I thought that whole thing of girls dumbing themselves down to get cute dumb guys to like them was something we distained and made fun of."
(If there was ever any motive behind Jane leaving Daria and Trent alone, it was to get her to relax around him and start acting like herself again. Since Trent was their primary source of rides, Daria's Miss Jellyfish act a problem -- Jane enjoys talking to Daria and hearing her commentary on things, and a Daria who's deathly afraid of offending Trent is no fun to talk to when Trent is around.)
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
True, but she _could_ understand why Daria _liked_ Trent. Jane has a high opinion of Trent, overall.
The thing that _she_ couldn't grasp is why Daria couldn't just approach Trent and try to be with him. Jane's attitude, when she likes a guy, is to walk right up to him and be friendly.
such
smart
and
Very good point. Though I _do_ think that Jane, at least orignally, felt that Trent would make a good boyfriend for Daria (and vice versa). If she hadn't, she wouldn't have been trying to get them together.
was
Trent
Jane
around.)
You're selling short both Trent, and Jane's opinion of him. There is one big way in which Trent would have been better for Daria than the average run of guys -- he's _nice_. He genuinely cares about people and is unwilling to harm them. And that includes girls.
However, Jane knows Daria well enough to know that, as an idealist, she'll be disapointed when Trent fails to live up to her expectations.
Consider how Daria reacted to Tom forgetting their six month anneversary.
Now consider how Trent is constantly late for or absent from band practice and auditions. The same band that is suposedly the most important thing in his life, and the thing he has all his hopes and dreams and asperations tied to. The center of his universe.
Why would his behavior on dates be any different? How would Daria react the first time Trent slept trough a date? The second time? The fifth time?
Again, Trent's a nice guy, and he would never / intentionally / do anything to hurt Daria or any other girl he dated. But like Kevin and Brittany, he ends up hurting people unintentionally. And like them, he's fairly oblivious to the way he does this (witness his exchange with Jane in Camp Fear).
While the vast bulk of shipper fic hinges on the idea that Daria is somehow "The One" who will turn Trent's life around and change him for the better (and why are so many girls hung up on this "But I can't change him!" meme anyway?), it's pretty unrealistic, and something that never would've happened on the show.
And Jane probably knows better than to beleive any such fantasies. If she actually was trying to get Daria and Trent to go out, getting Daria to loosen up and live a little appears as a much more plausable motivation than some vision of Daria as her future sister in law.
And no, I'm not trying to sell Trent short. He is a nice guy. But like every other character on the show (Daria and Jane included), he has some pretty deeply ingrained flaws. And in Trent's case, they are ones that make him incompatable with Daria on a romantic relationship level. Luckily, they don't stand in the way of the two of them being friends, which they clearly are by the end of Jane's Addition (as well as in IIFY and Camp Fear).
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Jane may not have realized this way back when. Remember, she understands Daria better now than she did in Seasons 1-3.
way
Well, actually I don't think that Daria and Trent would have worked. Especially not as they both were in the first three seasons. Daria's way too sensitive, and Trent too self-contained.
My take on Daria/Trent/Jane is a little different. I think the key to understanding the dynamic is in a comment Jane made after Daria got her bellybutton peirced. (inexact quote)" "Hey, you did something stupid for a guy. You just might joing the human race after all."
As much as she likes Daria, there are indications that Jane finds her to be a drag sometimes and she'd like to change that and she probably saw Trent (and more specifically Daria's unfocused crush on him) as a way of doing that. I don't think Jane ever thought a Daria/Trent pairing was possible or desirable (she has a pretty realistic view of his many shortcomings) but Daria's crush on Trent was a(n all too rare) bit of human behavior from Daria. Without thinking that it could or should (and I think it definitely shouldn't ...ever) lead to them being a couple, Jane pushes them together so that Daria will (eventually) act more like ... well, a human being.
Daria claims that each of them offered her $100 to change her /hair/.
And given that Jane is the person she is discussing this with (in Jake of Hearts), one must wonder how much of that story is truth and how much is cynical exaggeration.
While it can be argued that Ruth isn't all that fond of Daria's outlook on life, this is most likely the result of Ruth's own conservative views on the roles of women in society. And odds are that whatever faults she finds in Daria are blamed on what she sees as Helen's "bad influence."
Meanwhile, whatever dislike Mother Barksdale may have for Daria's hairstyle does not equate to a dislike -- or to any opinion whatsoever -- of Daria's attitude.
They /must/? Wow, that's a stretch in reasoning that even Reed Richards would be in awe of.
While it's possible that Daria might believe that, there's nothing to support it. In fact, given Daria's similar paranoid reaction to Helen encouraging her to try contacts to see if she likes them, odds are that it would be as incorrect as it was in "Through A Lens Darkly".
Daria has had the exact same hairstyle her entire life (the only variation has been in the length along the back). Remember, this is the same Daria who has to be dragged (figuratively) kicking and screaming anytime she has to set foot outside that comfortable rut she's created for her life. Daria might enjoy having a new hairstyle. Or she might not. But she's never going to know because she's so afraid of doing anything new or different.
Perhaps, like her mother, Daria's grandmothers know their granddaughter better than she suspects, and they both recognize her fear of change and risk, and are concerned about it. And, perhaps they also know how she tries to get monetary bribes anytime she does anything beyond reading and watching TV. So they offer her the money in the hope Daria might take a small, tiny step outside of her comfortable routine and maybe, just maybe, learn to stop being afraid of life and gain some self confidence.
Again, lending credence to the theory that Ruth's concern is not with Daria, but with the fact that Daria has not changed any aspect of her appearance in several years. This is something that is fairly unusual in and of itself, but especially so for a teenager.
You know, it's comments like the one above, that makes me feel that Wraith's observations were correct regarding "Boxing Daria"?
I'll quote them below:
"This episode came dangerously close to undermining the entire series. You do NOT build a show around a character that is an intelligent outsider who makes fun of the stupidities other people refuse to recognize and then have her say, "Oh, wait, I'm just a jerk!" This isn't quite what they did, but the scene in the diner and just after was looking like it would go that way. "
If you want to read the rest of his comments click the link http://www.ssw.net/ssw/ramblings/2001/0630ramble.htm
I'll even take Wraith's comments a step further and add that not only did they have her say "Oh wait, I'm not only a jerk but, an emotionally injured, introverted, socially-stunted, 6-year-old-going-on-18-year-old little jerk and my whole life, and this show, was just a bad case of arrested development!
Up to the end of Season 5, Daria's observations about people's motivations were spot on.
I respected Daria's "cynical exaggerations" because they were also succinct observations of what was going on around her.
Of course this is before we found out she was this emotionally injured creature in "Boxing Daria", hiding in her shell, or cardboard box, or whatever.
Tsk.
Please...
the
Daria
hairstyle
I'll agree up to a point with that statement. In "Aunt Nauseam" it seems that old Mother Barksdale doesn't really acknowledge any of her grandchildren except Erin, Rita's daughter, and that's only because Rita is her favorite.
So you're right in that she probably MIGHT NOT have any opinion whatsoever regarding Daria's attitude. However, given Daria's talent for telling-it-like-it-is to anyone within earshot, I'm pretty sure that Mother Barksdale probably got a taste of it, and immediately identified it as "an attitude".
Just like everyone else.
would
support
her
Bullshit.
Helen and Daria have been playing a not-so-subtle game of bait and switch since grade school. Helen is quite the overachiever herself, as was revealed in "Aunt Nauseam", and probably want(ed)s her daughter(s) to follow in her foot-steps. With Daria being the first born, and exhibiting a precocious intelligence at an early age, I think Helen saw Daria having the potential to be more successful than she was.
Don't all parents wish that for their children?
The dark-side of having a precocious intelligence is that you gain knowledge of things before you are emotionly able to handle them. Daria saw some of wh at interpersonal relationships have to offer; the politics, the self-delusions, and the overall bullshit of normal life. Daria became world-weary too early, and wanted to opt out of it entirely.
I think Helen went into a state of semi-denial for a little while. Or maybe she was just plain scared that she was raising a stranger that she might not be able to comprehend.
<I personally thought it was strange, with the introduction of the Aunt Amy character, that Helen wouldn't recognize the traits in her own daughter that seemed to mirror the ones in her own sister...but I digress>
As the years progressed this turned into a quite the conflict. Of course Daria is just as bull-headed as her mother, so their relationship degenerated into a game of comprimises, bribes, and even extortion to get one to do what the other wanted.
I'll say it again: Up to Season 5, Daria's observations about people's motivations were spot on
Oh yes, Helen wanted Daria to be a debutante, or home-coming queen, or whatever.
But in the end, Helen realizes that Daria "makes her choices" and hopes that Daria will learn to be happy ...not that Helen still doesn't try and push Daria into doing something different and/or can be seen as an extracurricular activity. (see the Student Tours)
Why are the two inconsistent? Why can't Daria be a highly perceptive supergenius, and also have emotional problems?
We see signs of Daria's emotional problems all through the series. It just isn't until Season 5 that they're all tied together and one of the causative factors explicitly revealed.
Or do you think that Daria is _really_ doing the right thing when she rejects the friendship of basically good people for basically trivial reasons? Look how long it took her to accept Jodie -- and Jodie was going out of her way to be friendly to her all the way back in the first season. Look at how, in general, she treats Brittany -- who has _always_ been nice to her. Look at how long it took her to even _accept_ Tom as an ok guy.
I'll go one step further -- while some of the things that Daria complains about are on-target, a lot of them are ridiculously perfectionist. There is _no_ reason why everyone around her should be expected to conform to Daria's _precise_ code of conduct -- one that even she can't conform to all the time. It's not that Daria's a moralist that would bother me about her -- it's that her moral code is horribly precise, and often applied with unreasonable rigidity.
Daria _had_ to learn to accept friendship when offered, and realize that she could not rationally expect everyone else to conform to her code, or she would have had a _very_ lonely and unsuccessful adult life. This does _not_ mean that Daria has to suck up to everyone, nor that she should cast her morals aside and do whatever pleases her at the moment. It simply means that she has to choose a compromise between the totality of what she wants and what reality offers her, such that she can get _some_ of what she wants.
In the novel that this series is _most_ modelled on, _Pride and Prejudice_, Lizzy Bennett and Mr. Darcy _both_ had to make compromises. Lizzy had to admit that her snap judgement of Darcy was mistaken; Darcy had to accept that to have Lizzy, he would wind up related not only to the giddy Lydia but (far worse) to Mr. Wickham, who had betrayed him in the past.
In _Daria_, one major turning point was "Jane's Addition." In that episode, Daria had to accept two unpalatable things -- that her naively idealized version of Trent did not match the reality; and that Jane was going to have a boyfriend, and therefore a life not entirely centered around Daria.
I strongly suspect that one major _future_ turning point -- probably to be in the final movie -- will come when Daria realizes three things about Tom, namely (1) he _is_ as close to an "ideal" love as she's likely to find, (2) but still, he is _not_ always going to know what she wants him to do, or be willing to do it, and (3) if she doesn't accept point # 2 as part of reality, she's going to lose him. All through Season 5 we've seen Daria jerk Tom around, often behaving indecisively herself and then expecting him to know what not merely what she _wants_ him to do, but what she _will_ want him to do (most infamously in "My Night At Daria's"), and Tom has (mostly) accepted this with only minor complaint. There is _no_ way that Tom is going to accept this forever, though.
Personally, I _hope_ Daria realizes this before she loses Tom, because I _do_ like Daria, and I don't want her to see her ruin one of her best chances at happiness. (And no, this isn't just a typical high school romance -- in Tom she really _has_ found the kind of boyfriend that she could spend her whole adult life looking for unsuccessfully). But, based on Daria's track record, I wouldn't be _too_ surprised if she blows it.
I'm reminded of a description of another strong female character. "There's a certain glint in her eye possessed by those people who have found that they are more intelligent than most people around them but who haven't yet learned that one of the most intelligent things they can do is prevent said people ever finding this out. This gives her a piercing expression which is extremely disconcerting. Open your mouth, and you're suddenly the focus of a penetrating stare which declares: what you're about to say better be interesting."
That character end up living completely alone, without even a cat for company, and knows the main reason people attend her funeral will be to make sure she's dead.
Quite simply, Daria's attitude to other people doesn't work. She wants to keep people at a distance, but only succeeds in attracting attention.
If she really wants to be left alone, she'd be better off appearing superficially unremarkable, but not intimidating.
It also leaves her unprepared for when she does want human company. lHer personality doesn't just intimidate the fools, as Jordan says it also deters even those who would make good friends.
Part of growing up is the realisation that you can't expect the world to bend to your wishes. You have to bend to fit in the world, or leave it. It's not a pleasant realisation, but it's the way things are. EIther Daria learns to fit in or she ends up a recluse.
Another part of growing up is realising that other people are real, with real feelings. Tact is a virtue. Daria is perceptive, but she has also hurt other people with her accurate perception. We have to learn sensitively, so we only hurt those we mean to.
The acknowledgement of Daria's flaws doesn't invalidate her highly accurate assessments of everyone elses. It just means she's human, not a flawless saint.
--- Matter is fundamentally lazy:- It always takes the path of least effort Matter is fundamentally stupid:- It tries every other path first. That is the heart of physics - The rest is details. Robert
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...
did
injured,
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motivations
succinct
I have no problem with that observation Jordan, however, it seems that it's become an either or choice in regards to peoples perceptions about Daria. That's what I'm really railing about. It seems that since Daria has "emotional problems" anything she's said or done can be pretty much taken with a grain of salt now.
THAT'S what I don't agree with.
causative
rejects
Look how
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it
Helen called Jodie a pragmatist. I think she was being polite. I'd call Jodie a realist, leaning towards being an oppurtunist. If Jodie is doing something for you, it's only because their is always something in it for her. That was revealed in Season 4 and Season 5. (see Partners Complaint and Fizz Ed)
Let's also take a look at the Season 5 episode that no one dares speak its name, Prize Fighters.
I, for one liked the episode, and I am probably one of the few people who did. Why? It was an exceptionally brutal episode. I hadn't seen an uglier episode of Daria since "The Lost Girls".
It showed that EVERYONE has a price, and God help you if your enemies can afford to pay that price.
It showed a very ugly side of Jodie, it also made me look back at Jodie's behavior in previous episodes a little more closely, and look askance at her ever since.
In Jodie's defense, Prize Fighters also showed an ugly side of just about everyone on the show, except for, believe it or not, Jodie's father, Helen, and to a lesser extent Jake.
Brittany tries to be friendly to Daria, but she's cluelessesly cruel, just like Kevin or Quinn. Take for example the episode "Art Burn", when Daria and Jane show up at her house, she asks nervously "Why are you guys here? You don't want to HANG OUT do you?"
<SIGH> Yeah, Brittany really wants to be good friends with Daria...
I'm not going even going to talk about Tom. I've already voiced my views.
I'm not getting that flame war started again....
But I will say this, even when Daria was in raving, jealous, bitch-mode, the comments she made to Jane regarding Tom did have a hard kernel of truth inside of them. I'll leave you with this quote from ILAP.
Jane: Where the hell is Tom? He was supposed to be here 15 minutes ago.
Daria: I wouldnt' let it bother you. Just because he's a few minutes late, doesn't mean he's an inconsiderate jerk who will ultimately bring you nothing but misery.
In Jane's case, that turned out truer than she could have possibly imagined.
I bet that IIFY? was the longest, and most miserable summer of Jane's life.
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Look, I'll admit that Daria has a lot of growing up to do. I don't see Tom hanging around waiting for her to do it.
I'm guessing that IICY? is going to be very bittersweet.
Why is being a "realist" a bad thing? For that matter, why is being an "opportunist," assuming that you restrain yourself from harming others as immoral?
Jodie connives, but she does not (as far as I can see) hurt anyone else in the process. She wants Daria to be nice back to her, and do things for her in return for things she does for Daria -- so what? Should Daria expect Jodie to make an effort on Daria's behalf, while Daria need not reciprocate? If so, why?
Joeis is frequently nice to Daria on general principles, starting all the way back in "Ill." Sure, she wants Daria to help her organize school activities, but then, if Daria had accepted Jodie's invitations, Daria might have made more friends. Among other things, she would have wound up being closer friends with _Jodie_ -- and what's so terrible about that?
Jodie was sucking up, but I don't see what she did in that ep that was so wrong. Sure, she went for the scholarship that Daria told her about, but why shouldn't she? Daria had, after all, told Jodie that she herself wasn't going for it -- should Jodie have held back on the mere off-chance that Daria might reconsider? For that matter, after Daria was upset about it, Jodie told her about the interview counselor as an attempt at making amends.
Well yes, but Brittany isn't being malicious there. She's just being Brittany. And in several eps, she goes out of her way to be nice to Daria.
Well yes, but the reason it was true had absolutely nothing to do with Tom failing to find her at the parade.
Oh, yes.
But note that this was at _least_ partially Daria's fault, too.
In Daria's mind, probably the subconscious fear that at some point, she'll reveal something about herself that Jodie won't like, which will cause Jodie to reject her, leading to feelings of hurt and betrayal on Daria's part (not that this is what would actually happen, but Daria does share her mother's habit of convencing herself that the worst possible outcome is what will end up happening).
While Brittany and Kevin do sometimes hurt people with their actions or words, there's no malice behind it (even when they fight and try to make the other jealous, neither is actually trying to hurt the other). They're just too clueless to understand it. In Kevin's case, it's because his entire life, his parents have convinced him that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and so in his mind, he can do no wrong. I'm not sure what Brittany's problem is. She gets her temper from her father. Maybe she gets her cluelessness from her mother. Or else she uses it as a defense against all the things in her life that would crush her if she actually admitted they were there (her father's love for slaughtering animals; her brother's sociopathic behavior; both of them's tempers; her mother abandoning her when she was a child; the fact that she doesn't seem to have many close friends).
I think when she emphasized "hang out", it was to verbally put them in quotation marks (the way adults sometimes do when trying to work slang into their conversations with teens -- "you don't want to "hang out" do you? That would be "way out and happening").
As for why she says they aren't friends but are just Daria and Jane, this may be because what Brittany defines as "friends" are the other girls on the cheerleader squad -- people she talks to at school and sees at parties, but who don't seem to come over to her house and just "hang out". In fact, Brittany may never have had anyone come over to her house to just hang out before.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Given their history over 4-and-a-half seasons to that point (Art Burn), it must strike Brittany as fairly weird that Daria and Jane would show up unannounced at Brit's door - she's thinking out loud, trying to figure out *why*.
Though, yes, there have been cases where Brittany is "cluelessly cruel" - in "The Invitation" she invites Daria to her party, explaining that Daria's "not popular" but not "*so* unpopular" either. Or in "The Misery Chick" where she's seeking Daria's advice on dealing with Tommy Sherman's death because "you're used to be all gloomy and depressed".
As much as Jane had a right to angry over DDMD, Tom had ample reason to consider Jane an "insensitive jerk" in her own right. The ILAP situation is a fairly minor example - Jane blames Tom for being late, even after it's clear the real reason for his lateness is Jane's ambiguous directions on where to meet.
Based on their conversations in DDMD and IIFY, I think Jane considers it more Daria's fault than Tom's - probably because Daria was much closer to Jane than Tom, with whom Jane never completely clicked.
And don't forget what happened in "Psycho Therapy" and "Mart of Darkness". MoD in particular resonates with me because Jane got mad at Tom for eating her Gummi Bears when I seriously doubt Tom could've known that the Gummi Bears were for her art project. Now if she'd put them near her art project and Tom ate them, * then * I'd have reason to be angry at Tom.
Why does it resonate with me? Because when I was a child, I was tested by some lady (perhaps a child psychologist). One of her tests involved putting objects in a bottle (I think). The objects were raisins. I was only about three, so what do you think a child of that age would do?
If you guessed that a child of that age would eat the raisins instead of putting them in that bottle, that's exactly what I did. Sounds reasonable to me -- and to my parents. But the lady got mad at me, and complained to my dad. My dad pointed out that if she'd used marbles, I'd have been more likely not to try to eat it. So that's why I sympathize with Tom in this situation.
Jane's problem in ILAP, PT, and MoD seems to be that she omitted vital info which she should've given to Tom (telling him which drugstore they should go to, not telling him about the Jane-Cam, not putting the Gummi Bears near the art project), and then expecting Tom to know what she wanted. Naturally, Tom failed to do just that, and Jane got mad at him. If I was involved in that situation, I'd have told Jane that Tom's not a mind-reader, so should she have expected him to know what she wanted if he didn't know what she really wanted?
This psychologist never before had someone that young (or even older) eat the raisins before? Was this her first day on the job?
I thought it interesting that The Alchemist, in the fanfic "Jane on the Side", had Tom and Jane break up over the Gummi Bear incident. Since that fanfic was based on Jane and Daria never forming a friendship, it appears The Alchemist thought Jane and Tom would have broken up then and there if Daria hadn't gotten Jane to talk things out at the warehouse store. Pretty plausible, I think.
Putting myself in Tom's place, and considering the build-up of the Jane-Cam incident and other things, I definitely would have had trouble finding a reason to stay with Jane at that point.
:) Sounds like something my dad would say. Seriously, however, I don't know if this was her first day on the job or not, but this took place in 1975 (which should give you a good indication of my age), and abnormal psychology concerning children wasn't as good as it is today, so perhaps the woman in question (actually a psychiatrist) didn't know any better.
Jane and Tom might well have broken up over the Gummi Bears incident if Daria hadn't learned about it. And yes, it would be hard to find a reason to stay with Jane after the whole unpleasantness over the Gummi Bears.
Incidentally, if Tom and Jane * had * broken up over the Gummi Bears, the whole unpleasant mess in "Fire!" and "Dye! Dye! My Darling" might not have happened.
That's very true, and the likely cause is that Jane has lived most of her life with her only friend being her brother Trent -- who _does_ know what she wants, because he has known her intimately from birth. Jane was irrationally expecting Tom to know her as well, when they'd only been dating for a few months.
That's, incidentally, what Trent tells her -- in a Socratic sort of way :)
You might've hit the nail right on the head. In addition, she might've expected Tom to at least know her as well as Daria does, since she and Daria had been best friends for about two years. Unfortuntately, a guy you've been dating for two months can't possibly know a girl as well as another girl who's been this first girl's best friend for two years.
My memory's rather vague on that area. When did Trent tell her that she shouldn't expect him to be a mind-reader (in so many words)? Or was it Daria who told her that, since I do remember Jane telling Daria about the misfortune with the Gummi Bears?
I /think/ my memory is a little fuzzy, that it was Daria who did the "they were right next to your work space, right? You did have them labeled, right? You did tell him you were using Gummie Bears in your work, right?" (or whatever it was she said) in MoD, and then Trent did the same thing in DDMD ("I didn't know Daria paints." "Umm... she doesn't." "Then why did she say she could?" "Umm... she didn't.").
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Actually, I thought it was more likely that you made the mistake -- that it was Daria who hinted that Jane shouldn't expect Tom to be a mind-reader, but I wasn't certain about that, since I hadn't seen the episode in some time. However, it's not a big surprise you confused Daria's actions in MoD with Trent's wondering if Daria painted and if Daria really expected to be able to dye Jane's hair if she couldn't paint, since they both pointed out flaws in Jane's thinking in those episodes.
I don't see that as inconsistent at all. First of all, people are using the term "emotional problems" to equal "mental illness," which is not a fair assessment at all. Daria does have some issues, but they don't invalidate her intelligence or worldview.
The point of _Boxing Daria_ isn't to undermine Daria; it's just another stop on the road to adulthood. In remembering this traumatic event, she realizes that family insanity is a two-way street. After all, Daria's been casually cruel to her parents throughout the series. After BD, she realizes it.
I don't think that's a completely fair assessment. Yes, in both those episodes, Jodie looks out for Jodie first, in FE by ignoring the Ultra Cola ads for the greater good of not having to fundraise and in PC by doing the project with intelligent Daria and thus avoiding clueless Brittany and financially inept Mack.
Jodie's main conflict with Daria is NOT over Jodie's opportunism. I think the episode pretty clearly supports the interpretation that Jodie's decision to mention her father to the second banker is to avoid the painful implied racism from the first bank. Daria doesn't understand this, which is why Jodie gets pissed. Helen kinda misses the boat, but this isn't surprising, considering her inability to communicate with Michelle Landon in any meaningful way.
I don't think tLG is all that ugly. Not like _See Jane Run_, which is IMHO the ugliest episode of the series by far. tLG pulls its punches, as everyone sees through Val by the end of the episode.
Well, there's definitely that Miss Perfect attitude, but Jodie realizes that she's made mistakes and does try to correct them.
Yeah. Andrew is the same pretentious well-meaning jerk he is in every episode he's in, but this time he's RIGHT. Or at least presenting a coherent point of view.
I kinda like Andrew, though. He's a jerk, but he's OK.
I think Brittany does like Daria, but Daria SCARES her. After all, there are several instances of Brittany being nice or helpful to Daria (Ill, TaLD, MNaD, tOatB), but she can be cluelessly cruel and she doesn't want to hang out with Daria because she doesn't know what they'd do, since they have almost nothing in common.
You can like someone without wanting to be close to them.
I think that was humor. I also think it was foreshadowing, since ILaP very much sets up the late season story arc, but from Daria's PoV, it's a throwaway comment very much in keeping with her personality, sense of humor, and relationship with Jane.
It was also likely the worst of Daria's. Trapped in a job she hated, forced to confront something she's no damn good at, reaching out (to both Link and Tom), all the while missing her best friend and wondering if there is any way to patch things up? Not fun for Our Heroine either.
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Yeah. I don't know how I'd feel about it if Daria and Tom went off to the same college as warm and fuzzy sweethearts. In my experience it is far more likely that their relationship would end within a few weeks of their starting at different colleges.
I do want Daria's like to be more happy than sad (insofar as it is possible for a fictional character to have a happy life after her show is over) but I don't know how realistic it is for her to have it with Tom.
No. The choice of words and phrasing use completely alter the meaning of the sentence.
"Tom will easily be able to pay his way into college, since his family is rich" means that Tom has complete access to his parent's money and is perfectly willing and able to spend it on himself.
"Tom's parent's will easily be able to pay his way through college, because they are rich" means that Angier and Kay have a great deal of money, and are perfectly willing to spend it on their son's education.
When working in a text-only medium such as Usenet, it is vitally important to be as clear and concise as possible in order to ensure that the ideas you wish to communicate are the ones you actually end up putting forth.
I don't really see them doing that. As Jane said, "how do you think old money gets old?"
On the other hand, I would not be stunned if it turns out that Helen's mother has actually set aside money to pay for Daria and Quinn's college. In this case, I don't think Daria would have any trouble accepting that money. Not only does she understand what a financial burden it would remove from her parents, I think she'd also understand how much it would mean to Helen for her mother to do such a thing.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
"Kenneth Chisholm" wrote in message news:GxNw7.227803$[email]...
a
I agree...and I'm a Daria/Trent-shipper. This is what I suspect might happen though;
Tom will easily be able to pay his way into college, since his family is rich. The Morgendorffers aren't exactly in the same class as the families of Grace, Sloane & Paige, so Tom will try to pay for Daria's tutition as well. This may bring some tension for Daria & Tom, challenging her ethics as an independent young woman, which hopefully will work out between them around the middle of the picture. Perhaps they'll go to college together and share a room off-campus, or something and yes even feel ready to have sex. Glenn said he wanted to end the series on a high note.
I think they're moving in that direction already. In "My Night at Daria's"(#512), Jodie tried to convince Daria that it was okay for Daria & Tom to relax and give in to their presumed sexual desires, but danced around whether or not Mack & Jodie were giving into their own. I doubt there'd be as much "shame" involved if it weren't for all the adult/parental pressure. The closer they get to graduation, the more time they'll have together.
Nahh, that'll never happen. Mr. D is duty bound to teach, but he'll always run into someone with the I.Q. level of Kevin & Brittany, which is one of the reasons he's so aggravated about it all the time.
I still think regardless of his act, he's been growing on Stacy since "Life in the Past Lane"(#509). Throughout Season 5 we've been seeing her grow into her own person, totally separate from the rest of the Fashion Club. Maybe deciding on her own which boys to go out with is part of that process.
If that's the case, hopefully he'll have enough sense to go along with her.
:)
I almost thought she would in "Fizz Ed"(#501).
Sorry about the extra message if there is any. I'm bad at working with Outlook Express, and I don't know how to delete mistakes once they've been posted.
Likewise. Daria has been very happy with him, and their relationship has helped bolster her self confidence.
Odds are she will. While things like student government and community involvement are very important to her, several of her activities are done primarily to get her out of the house and away from her parents' constant "encouragement" (How many college's have you applied for this week, dear? Have you been studying for your PSTATs? Michael's not... presuring you to do anything, is he? He's a new scholarship opportunity I heard about, dear. Since you had a free hour, we signed you up to read to kids at the library, isn't that great! Ring that bell, Jodie!). So when she starts college, odds are she'll cut back on the stuff done more as time filler. She'll probably take on a full course load and join the student government and a few clubs (young businesswomen or something), and devote the rest of her time to enjoying herself with Mack and their friends.
While it's very likely that she'll end up telling Sandi off (if not in the movie, then during their senior year), she probably won't leave the Fashion Club. Regardless of what conflicts she has with Sandi, the girls are still Stacy's friends. Plus, Stacy considers Quinn to be the perfection to which she aspires -- beautiful, smart, caring and self-confident (for the most part). On top of this, Stacy enjoys the feelings of superiority that come from being part of an elite clique like the Fashion Club.
Plus, Life in the Past Lane was pretty much Stacy's revenge against Sandi.
I think Linda has drilled it into Sandi's head that there are only two kinds of people in this world: threats and tools. Sandi has always seen Stacy and Tiffany as tools, as are the boys she dates. Quinn is a threat, because she challenges Sandi's percieved possition of dominance. This idea of Quinn as a threat is probably encouraged by Linda, and the irony of it all is that Linda, with her worldview, probably views Sandi (and her rivalry with Quinn) as just a tool in her own rivalry with Helen.
Kind of sad, really.
Hopefully Sandi will come to realize what a friend she has in Quinn, and once they stop competing (except in a friendly way), her attitude will improve and with it, her relationship with Stacy and Tiffany.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
And the relationship's probably had some benefits for Tom as well. He and Daria have similar tastes in literature and films, and Daria's less impulsive than Jane, both of which probably make Tom's life a little easier. We might not see the benefits for Tom as much simply because he's not the star and because he's been around only a little over two seasons, but the benefits are there.
Hey, I remember a fanfic written by Erin Mills called "Guilty Pleasures", which says that Jodie created a society of just one person to have fun without having to answer to her father. That guy needs to lighten up big time!
Yeah, I remember that. That was my favorite moment of LITPL and possibly of the entire season.
Yes, it is sad what Linda is doing to her daughter. And I'd like to see Sandi come to realize that she has a real friend in Quinn and all she has to do is not see Quinn as a threat. That would do wonders for the Fashion Club.
Undoubtably. I think for Tom, one of the biggest is having someone who accepts and -- I hesitate to say "loves", but I'm too tired to think of a better word at the moment -- him for who he is and not who his family is. On top of this, Tom has described his family as "repressed", and odds are that being around people like Daria and Jane ("You're, like, from a cooler world."), as well as Jake* and even Quinn lets him feel alive in a way that he never does around his family or classmates.
*Really, what are the odds that Tom ever did something like catch a squirel, groove to some tunes in the car and then go go-cart racing with his own dad? Really, I don't think I've ever seen him that happily energetic before. The same with Jake. I just can't see him as having ever done something even remotely like that with Daria or Quinn, and he looked like he was truly enjoying himself.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
I wouldn't exactly give odds on that one, but I liked seeing that scene. I thought it charming, actually, though I did feel a little sorry for Daria at first. Then again, whenever I go to Ocean City, New Jersey with my parents, my dad & I always go to this go-kart track there and have a blast, so that's one reason why I probably liked seeing Tom, Jeffy, and Jake do that go-kart race.
And you're right about Tom having that big benefit of being accepted & loved by Daria for who he is and not for his family. We all need that kind of love & acceptance.
That's a very good point. Actually, there are signs that Sandi is starting to understand that her mother's model of how to deal with people is flawed -- Quinn and Stacy both challenged her authority, and yet Quinn has shown herself to be Sandi's best friend, and Stacy is still Sandi's friend.
Daria and Tom go to different colleges, and exchange email for a few months. Then they meet other people, and break up.
Jane doesn't go to college. She creates her own business as a photographer, photographing weddings and such, to earn a living while painting on the side. In this, she has taken a hint from her Dad, who's a professional photographer. This way, she can afford her own apartment eventually, and enjoy the independence that brings.
Quinn, Sandi and Stacey all go to the party school that was mentioned in IIFY, Pepperhill University. They all try to get into the most exclusive sorority on campus, but only Sandi makes it. Quinn and Stacey pledge a different one, and remain good friends.
Sandi flunks out of Pepperhill, and returns to Lawndale, where she becomes a bartender at a "gentlemen's club" in the warehouse district which is one of the businesses that Upchuck owns. He's mostly into real estate. Sandi refuses to become a stripper, and becomes a dominatrix instead. Mr. O'Neal is a steady customer.
Stacey is valedictorian of her class, and goes into the computer field, which she got interested in during her undergraduate years. Quinn is #3 in the same class. She goes to New York and actually breaks into fashion, becoming Head Buyer for Bloomingdale's. After several other computer jobs, Stacey accepts a job as Network Administrator for the Computer Dept. of the City of Lawndale. Returning to Lawndale, she finds another member of her programming team is
(drum roll, please, maestro!)
DARIA! Yes, that's right, like many other literary types, Daria gives up "the liberal arts" and goes into computers, but putters away at fiction in her spare time.
When Tiffany's parents notice her grades are barely good enough to graduate from Lawndale High, let alone go to Pepperhill, they start getting concerned about her. They find out about those diet pills Tiffany's been taking on the sly since she was 14, and their side ffects. "Slurred speech, muddled thinking, and general sluggishness." Tiffany has to give up the diet pills. She and her mother (who has a weight problem) join the same health club, where their aerobics instructor is Brittany! Tiffany becomes an aerobics instructor too, then she branches out into giving Tai Chi and Karate lessons. She also communicates better. Tiffany and Brittany stay in Lawndale, share an apartment, and become close friends.
Kevvy gets a football scholarship to college, turns pro before graduating, and suffers a fatal concussion in his 3rd season. He does not marry Brittany.
Mr. DeMartino gets therapy for his anger control problem, lightens up a bit, and becomes Principal of Lawndale High.
This is after Miss Li leaves education to go into local politics. She is elected Mayor of Lawndale and is indicted for embezzlement during her 2nd term.
Val-as-in-Val does of a cocaine overdose.
That's all I can think of. I kind of like my original take on Tiffany and Brittany.