Jodie and Tom Confrontation

I'm new at this, so if I say something stupid, please forgive me. I had an idea about something I saw on this show and thought this would be the place to discuss it. I don't THINK anything I have here qualifies as spoilers, but better safe than sorry, I guess. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 Okay.

This concerns Jodie, one of my favorite characters and my personal choice for lead in a college-based spin-off series when "Daria" ends with her classes' high school graduation. (Sorry, all you Beavis and Butthead fans who really want to see MTV get back to thier roots with a Kevin and Brittney sitcom.)

Did anyone else think that the last couple of episodes were leading up to a confrontation between Jodie and Tom that wasn't delivered on in "Is It Fall Yet?" In "Fire" and "Dye Dye My Darling", Jane and Daria each talked to Jodie about the fact that they weren't getting along with each other, due to the presence of Tom. In each case, as the conversation ended, we see Jodie looking after them with an expression on her face that suggests that she's deep in thought over what has just been said. Since it seems that Jodie and Tom had never actually met until the Landon's 4th of July party, everything Jodie knows about Tom came to her second-hand. I imagined Jodie's thought processes going something like this:

1. Jane has a new boyfriend, she's meeting more people, involved more in life. Good for her!

2. Daria doesn't like Tom and certainly doesn't care who knows it. Untill Tom manages to charm her somewhat, obstinately because he wants to get along with her better for Jane's sake.

3. (I'm presuming here; so is Jodie) Jane, being impulsive, has probably experimented sexually, and it's a fairly safe bet Tom is no virgin either.

4. After a few months of being inseperable, Tom is much cooler towards Jane, dispite the fact that she seems more attached to him than to anyone Jodie knows of.

5. Suddenly, Tom is expressing interest in topics of interest to Daria, the girl who initially hated his guts; whom he had to win over in an exercise of pure charm.

6. Now why did he suddenly switch from interested in Jane to bored with Jane and interested in Daria? Could it be because he already got what he wanted from Jane? Could Tom be the "notches in the bedpost" type? And Daria could be viewed as a "challenge" to be oversome?

7. Unlike Jane, Daria is a total innocent in matters of romance, sexuality, or feelings in general. On her own, she'll be vulnerable to a wolf that already has his hooks in her. And the friend who would normally be the first to come to her rescue in this situation, ran away to an art colony because of it.

8. Jodie thinks: Even though Daria and I haven't always been close, she's still my friend and I'm not about to just stand by and see her get hurt. I guess, Jodie thinks, it's up to me to do something.

Of course WE the viewers know none of this is true. Daria and Jane are friends because they have many traits in common, and these just happen to be the traits that Tom finds attractive in girls. And MY personal take on Tom is that he does try to be a gentleman and may well have turned down sexual favors (even those offered by Jane) simply on principle. But does JODIE know that?

The floor is open for discussion.

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

In article ,

No, not at all stupid. But I AM going to play devil's advocate a bit! :-)

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But I think they had met, as least casually, before that although not "on camera". Jodie told Tom at the 4th of July party that she thought Tom and Jane had made a "cute couple". So she had at least seen Tom and Jane together, enough times and in enough circumstances, to draw at least a superficial impression.

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Would Jodie know this? Daria's attitude toward Tom softens CONSIDERABLY by the end of "Jane's Addition", just a day or two I thought. By the next episode, "Partner's Complaint", Daria is directing her wrath more at Jane, not Tom. And Jodie finds herself somewhat in the middle of THAT, as Daria's class-project-partner.

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Hmmm. I thought Tom and Jane's relationship rather quickly fell in a routine quite boring to both of them. And remember Jane's remark to Jodie "it was a perfect relationship. We watched TV and made fun of the shows"? And Jane's sad look when Jodie replied "you're kidding, right?"? Jane FULLY realized, for the moment at least, just how superficial her relationship to Tom had been since the initial excitement of its start.

And Tom's the one who comes (practically crawling) back to Jane after their argument in Mart of Darkness (even though the argument is Jane's fault, which she later admits under Daria's prompting), while Jane's cracking jokes to Daria about how "Tom ran off and took the kids".

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I don't Tom would have actually turned down a WILLING Jane!

But he's making such a big production of "going slow" with Daria that I can't believe he expects a "quick score". Tom's got enough charm, looks and flirting skill to get "notches in the bedpost" if that's all he really wants. And probably plenty of willing "Muffys" in his own social circle.

Jodie may get more involved in some way in season 5. It IS true that both Jane and Daria discussed matters at least briefly with Jodie, and it's made SOME impression on her. But she was COMPLETELY oblivious to the possibility that Daria and Tom were attending her party as a couple, and managed to quite embarrass herself as a result.

I think both Jane and Daria see Jodie as someone intelligent and sensitive enough to talk to about personal matters. Unfortunately Jodie is just too preoccupied to be a true friend to either one. Again, that MAY change in season 5.

Definitely an interesting topic.

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Good posting. I didn't read the body just in case it was a spoiler. Series 4 just started in the UK.

This is one of the things I've wondered about the discussions I've read here. It seems that a lot of people here don't consider anything to have happened unless it was "on screen". I always thought we the audience had to fill in between the lines ourselves -- animation is expensive and time-consuming to produce, in case you didn't know, they can't show EVERYTHING that must make up as complete a life as Daria is presumed to have in this newsgroup -- I was trying to get on the same sheet of music as the rest of you.

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

Actually, I was saying this is what I thought Jodie was thinking.

Okay, you've got me here.

Well, I think he might have. Partially because I like to think Tom is a little bit like me (or vice-verca). This may be prompted by the fact that I wish I had a girl like Daria, or maybe that Jane isn't my type. But everything I've seen (on camera) about Tom is that he is someone who gives consideration to the feelings of others, even at his own expense. At least he *tries*, although he did fail where this triangle situation occured. (If he's capable of colossal screw-ups, it just helps me identify with him all the more.) My point is, I think _I_ would have turned down a willing Jane. So don't rule it out.

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Absolutely. But there are some people who go too far in the other direction - making up things that have no basis, even inferential - to what happens on the screen. OK for the more speculative fanfics, but not for discussions.

Of course, what's legitimately inferential can be subject to great disagreement by reasonable people. That's what's so fun about this ng :-).

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Same here. But Jane must be somewhat *Tom's* type, or he thought she was, or he wouldn't have picked her out (and up) in the music club. She was WITH Daria at the time, and Tom apparently didn't much notice Daria then.

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I probably would too, but, like you, I don't think Jane's my type. At all. Tom turning down Jane seems unlikely given that they were "a couple" for months and, if our assumption is correct, both sexually experienced already. In fact, I've wondered if they engaged in sex the very night they met. After all, they stayed out quite late then, and they never showed much capacity for prolonged conversation with each other at any other time. Except, sadly, in DDMD's swingset conversation when it was too late for them.

Very speculative, of course!

M Man writes:

Yeah, I expect that life goes on between episodes, but that the episodes contain all the highlights. I don't expect there to be important plot developments off-screen.

Jane's look (as far as you can tell from a cartoon) is more intentionally outlandish, while Daria's is intentionally drab and un-noticeable.

I get the feeling that Tom was out looking for someone as different from his family as possible, and there was Jane with her offbeat looks and impulsiveness. Note that he avoided introducing Jane to his family (he never did, in a full 'season' of dating, right?). He did the same with Daria for a while, trying to keep her away from his family's social functions. To put it bluntly, Tom was slumming.

But we're told they did have conversations, just not deep personal ones. On a first date there's always plenty to talk about; Jane could tell stories about her weird family for several dates. :-)

We've seen that Jane will impulsively make out with a stranger in a laundry room at a party, but there's no evidence that she's gone farther than that. I tend to be of the "she hasn't" school where Daria and Jane are concerned. That's probably mainly because to me Daria seems to take place in the 80's more so than the 90's, and in the 80's we weren't all getting laid left and right like you kids today. :-)

Aaron

In article ,

I agree, though "slumming" is putting it rather harshly. He did say that he thought Jane was from "a cooler world", and he was probably at the music club to hang out in that world, not NECESSARILY looking for a girlfriend.

I just wondered about it.

But, as you said, important plot developments aren't going to take place off-screen. Was strikes me the more I think about it that we NEVER saw Tom and Jane having a good relationship - we saw them argue, we saw them miscommunicate, we saw them bored with each other, we saw them superficially amused, and that's about it. No substantial conversations.

"We watched TV and made fun of the shows" - Jane to Jodie. Those were their "good" times.

Oh, Daria HASN'T. That's clear.

With Jane, it's less clear. Mostly it's based on personality and circumstance. Just in IIFY, I thought her statement "I like GUYS!" to Allison sounded awfully firm to based only on preference and not experience. But it's a close call.

M Man writes:

Right. I was just responding to the idea that their lack of substantive conversations doesn't mean they were likely having sex instead. They could very well have stayed up all night talking -- just not about anything meaningful.

Yeah, I couldn't say absolutely, but I tend to think she hasn't. I was darn sure I liked girls for many years before I ever got into bed with one. :-)

Aaron

same here. :D

In article ,

I guess I was too.

This being election night in the USA, I've decided to put Jane Lane back in the "too close to call" column. If CNN can do it, I can. (Yes, CNN has called several states and then backed off!)

Aaron Baugher said:

There can be with characters not known well to Daria, or as part of building suspense.

But he did introduce Daria to his family in the end.

Now the interesting question is this -- does Tom think of himself and his family as "better" than Daria and hers. Because, if he does, and continues to, given the Morgendorffer level of self-esteem and Daria's deep love for his family, that relationship is _doomed_.

Oh yes. Possibly for a lifetime.

Oddly enough, I've been told that things were the opposite way round. Anyway, I think you're definitely right about Daria's morals, possibly Jane's as well. The main difference is simply that Jane is more impulsive: there has never been any sign that Jane is really loose.

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And, if she did, the reason Tom didn't immediately run screaming into the night is .... ?

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Jane would only have to be sexually impulsive once for us to say "she has". To say she's "really loose" would imply a pattern of behavior.

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Churchill rocks.

Well, what will be interesting to see IMHO is the interaction between both of the families. It's not a question of a girl from the wrong side of the streets dating an "uptown" guy; rather it's a girl dating a guy from the side of the streets her family has always aspired to. And there's bound to be some tensions along the way. Plus some interesting class satire which this show hasn't done yet.

Personally I think they'll keep the relationship going for a bit. They went through too much anguish with Daria this season to just have it end quickly. But I do think it might end at some point. That's not being cynical. Daria's growing up, and part of that is the acceptance of loss, which she hasn't experienced just yet. I'm wondering if they telegraphed this in The Misery Chick where she quotes from Tennyson in the end- "It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all." Interesting quote. We'll see how it goes (I'm always saying that!) and watch the subtle signs.

Jeff M.

In article ,

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Interestingly, in IIFY, Tom seems to respect Daria's family more than Daria respects his. However, it was strongly implied that Daria was using resentment of his family merely as an excuse to distance herself from Tom to avoid getting hurt.

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Yipes! I'd forgotten that the Tennyson line was used in that episode. Rather ominous.

Of course, major fictional characters rarely have smooth relationships. It's just not interesting fiction.

M Man said:

You've got a good point. In fact, if there's any family Tom DOESN'T respect, it's Jane's. In IIFY, he said that Jane could get a PH.D. or spend the rest of her life painting "and her parents wouldn't even care". He also added (in a section that I never saw, but which I read from a transcript) that his parents would care a lot more about that kind of behavior (in so many words). And earlier, Daria apologized to Tom for the way her parents behaved when he first showed up, and he took it in stride. If he didn't respect her family, he would've said something very patronizing about them to her at that moment.

I think the relationship will probably last for at least one full season, and part of a second one at least. They'll have their ups and downs -- what relationship doesn't have ups and downs? -- but when it ends (at the very latest, by graduation), I doubt the relationship will end as painfully as Jane's relationship with Tom did. At least, not if Tom had learned from his mistakes.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

This also of course insulted Jane's art, and IIRC this was said to Daria, which was not the brightest move on his part.

Jordan S. Bassior said:

I don't know if Tom meant to insult Jane's art or not, though of course it came out sounding that way whether he intended to do so or not. In any case, I'd agree that it wasn't a bright move for Tom to say that, but as the saying goes, "It takes two to tango", and Daria was making some dumb moves on her part.

Belle Book

Um, not that I'm saying that I hate it or anything, but haven't we free-associated this string way off track? I'm still kind of interested in discussion on potential interaction between Jodie and Tom. And in people's reactions to my theory.

Where are all the people who I thought would jump all over this? Lady Interference, Cornwomyn, two or three others, I forget your names. Not that I don't enjoy reading those of you who ARE posting,

Or is this the way it actually works? People just drift in casual conversation? If so, then sorry; don't mean to be rude or pushy. I'm still just learning my way around.

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

In article ,

interested in

people's

Not that I

still

Yeah, it happens. Especially with speculative topics. I started the "Country Club" thread about the same time and it turned into a thread about "will (or how will) Jodie rebel?".

A Jodie-Tom confrontation is sooo speculative that there's not a lot to say. I wonder if Jodie really would do this. She's not that close to anybody involved. Do you have more reasons to think it may happen?

Sigh. Me too.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Especially in matters where you have strong feelings. Tom was saying what he believed to be true, and he told in the most straightforward-to-the-point-of-being-blunt manner that it could have been told, because he felt -- not without justification -- that that was the best way to deal with Daria. So he wound up hurting her, and Jane, a bit. There was no way anyone was getting out of that situation totally unscathed. But why is everyone dumpping on Tom as if he had set out to hurt anybody? Give the guy a freaking break, already!

Pierce

Identifies strongly with Tom

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Oh, I basically agree. Of course, like Tom, we have strong feelings too. :-)

Hey, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on Tom! I don't think he ever meant to hurt anyone -- Trent said as much in IIFY. And I definitely don't hate the guy, though there are others who do. I just try to defend him gently, without trying to get anyone who hates him too angry at me.

In short, I see Tom as basically a decent guy, but flawed in the ways everyone's flawed -- he makes mistakes and errors.

As for why people are dumping on Tom, perhaps some would rather see things the way they were in the first season. They may not like the possibility that Daria could have a genuine romantic relationship with anyone. And others (the Daria/Trent shippers) probably hate him because he ruined their speculations on Daria and Trent ever getting together.

So, everyone, I agree with Pierce in this instance. Let's give Tom a break and just accept that it was just an unfortunate situation where nobody set out to hurt anyone but wound up doing so anyway.

Belle Book

Thank you, Miss Book. ("This instance"...?)

Pierce said:

I'm afraid that "this instance" bit was force of habit. My fault.

And you're welcome.

Belle Book

In article ,

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The Morgendorfers' behavior wasn't TOO unusual for parents meeting a daughter's boyfriend. Tom has probably seen it before. (Hell, I've seen it! Well, maybe a little less cartoonish.)

If Tom was a little rude about Jane's family, Jane wasn't much better when she talked about Tom's family to Daria. Though both descriptions may actually be fairly accurate.

Is there any evidence Tom actually met anyone in Jane's family other than Trent?

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M Man said:

You've got a good point -- Tom may well have seen the parents of a girl he was dating act that way before -- we know he's had experience dating, and it's a good bet that he had experience dating even BEFORE he met Jane.

Well, the description of Jane's family (actually, her parents) is kind of accurate -- we've seen Amanda's laid-back approach, and Vincent definitely seems uninvolved with parenting. I have to see more of Tom's family before I figure out how accurate Jane's comment about them is.

Well, I don't know if he met anyone in Jane's family other than Trent. If so, he would've had to have met Amanda (unless Summer's kids ran away again and she came to fetch them or Vincent needed a place for developing photos and the house was the only place he could find). After all, Penny's in Latin America and Wind's probably trying to find another wife. Neither of them would probably be around unless something went wrong before IIFY?

Belle Book

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It occurred to me after I posted that the very absence of Jane's parents is the best indication to Tom of how little they care, or seem to. We watch the show and are used to Jane's situation, but it's really rather weird for a high-school girl to live without any adults other than a twenty-something brother who may be a good brother but is hardly a parent surrogate.

And yes, we definitely need to see more of Tom's family to see what they're really like. But Tom's comparison of the Lanes vs the Morgendorfers is pretty accurate, if not the cleverest thing to say to Daria under the circumstances. (and why did Tom contrast a Ph. D. vs painting? If Jane got a Ph.D. it would be in the field of Art, wouldn't it? She'd be painting in any event!)

You're right -- it IS weird for any high-school girl to live without any adults except for a twenty-something who's not a parent surrogage, though he's a good older brother. And it's sad too, as teenage girls probably NEED their parents during adolescence. At least Daria can try to go to her parents when she's got a problem -- she was able to go to her mother after blurting out to Jane all about that kiss with Tom, and her mother listened and did try to give her some good advice.

Belle Book

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While I think they didn't telegraph it( at that point Tom wasn't even conceived) they may be going back to it now. I hope it lasts, at least through season 5, here was too much grief and hostility generated from this to have it end too quickly.

A.J.

Again, this is me speculating on what Jodie would be thinking, but maybe Tom would be after Daria because she would be a CHALENGE to "nail". ANYONE from Tom's own social circle could nail the "muffies", but how many of them would hang out at the Zen, where we first saw him in "Jane's Addition"?

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

Well, we don't know all that much about Tom's circle. They seem insular, but then again maybe they're not. We'll have to see.

Jodie's reaction to the news was understandable. The only person she talked to on the matter was Jane and at that point she and Tom were still a couple. Bam! Now Daria is dating Tom. I guess she didn't know how serious things had gotten. Of course with the fifth season I wouldn't be surprised if she was still thrown by this which could lead to some negative feelings toward Tom.

Jeff M.