Daria and Livia Soprano

     I see plenty of similarities between the two fictional characters.  For
those not familiar with Livia, she was Tony's mother on the hit HBO series "The
Sopranos", until the actress who portrayed her past away and the death of her
character was written into the script.
     Like Daria, Livia was a bitter, unpleasant woman who seldom had anything
good to say.  She spread absolutely no cheer and seemed more or less incapable
of experiencing joy.  Her conversations were laced with sarcasm and betrayed an
extreme cynicism.  Her attitude and worldview was negative and morbid.  She
tended to focus on what was wrong while rarely taking steps to correct problems
that might exist.
     Livia was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and I would
venture to guess that Daria may suffer from it as well.  It is a psychiatric
disorder characterized by joylessness and misanthropy.  Look at some of Daria's
commentary and they reveal a BPD victim:  From one of her books (the test):
"People don't realize: 'I'll be back to get them someday'."   From Cafe
Disaffecto:
O'neill: "Let's make Daria's dream a reality!"
Daria: "You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into
flames?"
     Daria is brighter than the elderly Livia was and probably possesses more
ethical compunction than the Soprano matriarch (Livia tried to kill Tony during
the first season), but I believe the similarities between the two women
outweigh the differences.
     For example, both women are snobs, although neither in the conventional
sense.  Livia was what I would call the typical "blue collar" snob, one whose
low social class limits her ability to "look down" on people, so her
haughtiness is directed entirely at racial and ethnic minorities.  Daria may
come from a higher social class, but she does not behave in a condescending
manner predicated on income or even intellect (of which hers is substantial).
Her snobbery revolves around the incredibly nebulous quality known as "depth".
If she sees a person as "shallow", she immediately writes them off and will not
associate with them.
     Lastly, I tend to think that Livia's nastiness is far more excusable than
Daria's.  Mrs. Soprano was no better than lower middle class during the early
part of her life, but more importantly, she had a sociopath for a husband, the
infamous "Johnny Boy Soprano", who was a prominent figure in the New Jersey
mafia.  Having to live with such a man could cause any woman serious psychic
injury.  Daria, on the other hand, resides in a comfortable suburb with two
kind, law abiding parents.  Her sister may be a self absorbed bitch
(particularly in the earlier episodes) but that is insufficient cause to pardon
her generally unpleasant disposition.
     Thus one can conclude that Daria is well on her way to experiencing a
lifetime of misery similar to the one that just ceased for Livia Soprano.

[email] (Al52228) wrote:

I've never watched The Sopranos, but from what I've read, Livia was a very manipulative character. I don't think there was a manipulative hair on Daria's head. On that basis alone, I see no smilarity.

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

In article , [email] says...

Try that argument with Quinn AND do it with a straight face. Although Quinn can't really say anything either...

Firah

Firah wrote:

I trust my own judgment over Quinn's. :-)

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

In article , [email] says...

How about Helen? Oh yeah, she can't say anything either...

:^)

Firah

Firah wrote:

How about her? She's concerned that Daria is antisocial, and (at least pre-Tom) that she'll never find a boyfriend. But manipulative? I can't think why.

I remember one episode in which Helen and Daria had a rare heart-to-heart talk, and Helen advised Daria that they way to deal with men is to play on their feelings of guilt. So she gave Daria a manipulation lesson.

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

In article , [email] says...

Believe me I agree that there is no similarity between Daria and Livia of the Sopranos. I'll admit that I have never even watched the Soprano's but from what I've heard this woman tried to have her own son killed.

Daria will *never* become the monster that this Livia woman was.

But as far as manipulative behavior? Oh yeah! Daria and Quinn and Helen have it in spades. All the bargaining, bribing and competitive rivalries that manifested themselves in the first three seasons of the show only proves that they do have it in them.

I think most people have Daria read all wrong. They take Daria's application of the old George Bernard Shaw adage "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." and ascribe some malevolently evil purpose to it.

Daria's problem is that she has ideals and standards so high that no one can really live up to them. I think she's secretly disappointed and hurt that, in her view of the world, no one will even *try* and live up to them.

The end of Season Four and Season Five finally showed her the reason why it's so hard do.

Firah

Firah wrote in message ...

Could you elaborate on this? I agree with what you say; just don't know what is the reason it's hard to do so.

JL (who did make a pass at a woman with glasses this weekend. An incomplete pass.. :(

Men who never make passes At women who wear glasses Are asses. -- Rita Rudner

In article , [email] says...

In Season 4 and 5 Daria finally realized that trying to live up to those ideals can be the hardest things to do. Never mind that others can't or won't, sometimes, you can come up short yourself.

<Firah goes to the bedroom, slips on the asbestos suit and Hello Kitty War Mask and returns to the computer>

The whole "Tom thing" is a case in point.

1. You don't kiss your best friends future ex-boyfriend behind her back. 2. You don't start dating your best friends now ex-boyfriend after confessing to the above. 3. You don't try and maintain a relationship with that best friend after doing the above things.

Believe me if the pre-Tom Daria heard others doing this (Quinn was notorious for this behavior) Daria, being Daria, would have made some snarky comment and kept clinging to that childhood notion that people ain't *hit. Then she would return to her room, lips pursed and nose held high, and watched Sick, Sad, World to reinforce that long held view of the world.

Now, all of a sudden, she's doing the same thing she would have condemned in anyone else?

Why?

I'm going to paraphrase the MIA Jordan Bassior and say she made a choice between love and her ideals.

Love won.

Which caused a long entrainment with, up to this point, her best and only friend in this world.

<Side Note: For those out there who thought Jane was being bitch and deserved everything she got...Fuck You! After IIFY, Jane showed Daria, Tom, and the world a forgiveness so pure that it bordered on Christ-like.>

This was not the only time that Daria's ideals were put to the test.

<Firah removes the Hello Kitty War Mask -- it was getting hot and it's hard to see the screen>

Then there was "Fizz Ed"...

When Jodie put Daria on the spot about doing nothing about her convictions, Daria stepped to the plate and did the right thing.

<Half hearted cheer>

Okay this episode was trite and preachy but Daria was triumphant, sorta.

<Firah whistles out of tune for a bit>

Ah hell, the less said about this fight-the-power "Arts and Crass" wannabe morality tale the better.

Other episodes, including Sappy Anniversary, Lucky Strike, The Story of D, Prize Fighters, and Boxing Daria showed her struggle between her ideals and the real world.

Most of the time she wavered and won, sometimes she lost.

She learned that high ideals are not only hard to maintain, but it's only when you fall short of them, pick yourself up, and try again, that you truly become worthy of them.

Firah.

In article , Firah wrote:

Of course, that's why we love her (had she done as many cartoon characters had and stabilised as of her first appearance, we wouldn't hold the show in nearly as much affection).

Firah wrote:

Yes, I see what you mean. When I think of "manipulative behavior," though, I think of games like "If you really love me you'll..." or "You know I'm only ...ing for your own good." When one person gets another to do or think or feel what [s]he wants by distorting motives, reversing responsibility, feigning helplessness... THAT'S manipulative. Daria just has a healthy portion of good old American selfishness.

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

In article , [email] says...

I don't know. That mind-trip she played on Quinn in "One J At A Time" (which was the basis of that entire episode) sounded like good old fashioned manipulation to me.

:D

Firah