Does anyone else think it would be a really bad idea for Daria and
Trent to finally get together?
I'm not concerned about the age difference. Daria will be 18 before
too long. An 18-year old and a 23-year old being together may be a little
out of the ordinary, but there's nothing abnormal about it.
It's more that I think Daria and Trent have incompatible personalities.
I mean, can you really imagine them living together on a day-to-day basis?
Daria is a reserved intellectual. Trent is certainly not reserved and I
don't think he's much of an intellectual. Daria may be in love with him now
but I think if she really spent a lot of time with him she would discover
that they don't have that much in common.
And for the dramatic purposes of the show, I think that would make a
very effective storyline. Falling deeply in love with someone and then
realizing that they are not right for you is a pretty dramatic development,
and I think most people could identify with it. Most of us have to learn
the hard way how to strike a balance between the rational and the emotional
in the whole "relationship" area. Around Daria's age is when a lot of that
learning is done.
In fact, I suspect rather few people form successful long-term
relationships with the first person they were seriously in love with.
I don't think it would be a good idea for Trent to just bluntly turn
her down; Daria should come to the realization more or less on her own,
though she will probably require some nudging. And then, of course, she
should find someone else.
It might be bad from a dramatic sense, since it would end a major source of romantic tension (the writers would then have to find something equally interesting in some aspect of their relationship, or give Jane a definite love interest, or something, to replace it).
It's only five years' difference, and frankly I wouldn't see anything wrong with it if they were 21 and 16 as they were when they first met. That's not that much, given two people who care for one another.
I disagree. I think their personalities are complementary, actually.
Easily. There would be compromises to make, which would be hard for both of them. I suspect Daria would be the dominant one, since her will seems stronger, and her dominance would become more pronounced as she grew more comfortable with the situation.
Extrovert - introvert relationships can actually work quite well; Trent could help Daria deal with other people and Daria help Trent deal with himself. I'm in a relationship like that right now (I'm the extrovert).
As for intelligence, don't underestimate Trent. He's a poet and has a deep love of music, he just needs to develop the skills to match. Just because his focus is different than Daria's (he's a poet and musician, she's a writer) doesn't make him a stupid person. Consider whose brother he is.
I think they have a lot in common, though ironically some of what they have in common might be the principal source of conflict between them. Both are strong, intelligent people with their own visions of life and an unwillingness to compromise themselves to please other people. That last is what would cause the problems. But not necessarily fatal ones, given a little goodwill on both sides.
Yes, it would make an effective storyline, though I'd be sad to see it. I've never been a big fan of "torture the admirable character" type plots, though they can be very effective (as the Greek tragedians showed us a long time ago). But then again, I don't think Daria and Trent are all that incompatible.
True, though I think this is one of the sadder facts of life.
she should find someone else.
Personally, I hope that they either have it not happen or have it work out. Then again, I've seen too many real-life versions of Daria suffer serious heartbreak to really look forward to seeing the TV character in this position.
On 14 Mar 1999 16:48:31 GMT, [email] (JBassior) wrote:
I'm sorry, but "You're giving my heart....*freezer burn*!!!" does not constitute great poetry.
Not to mention that Daria is not in love with him. She has a crush. The inability to tell the difference is a plague amongst many Americans under the age of 30.
___
Kyle
I saw the best mind of my generation. I was looking into a mirror at the time.
Cubs Win! Cubs Win! The Good Lord wants the Cubs to win!
Never said Trent was a *great* poet. Simply a poet.
At first it was a crush, but I notice it's if anything deepening as she comes to know him better. I think the crush is developing into full-fledged love.
(1) Daria's a very cautious girl; I suspect that if she ever makes a move it will be because she's convinced that her love is real.
(2) Ditto for Trent, at least as far as Daria is concerned.
(3) What on earth does this have to do with being "American?"
On 14 Mar 1999 20:40:38 GMT, [email] (JBassior) wrote:
But I've seen the exact opposite.
IMHO, it will never become "real" love, she already realizes it's just a crush. She just can't do much about it.
It has to do with being an American because:
a) Daria's an American b) I'm an American, so this is my frame of reference c) America is an oversexed country, and it desperately tries to convince itself it isn't by becoming obsessed with finding "true love"
___
Kyle
I saw the best mind of my generation. I was looking into a mirror at the time.
Cubs Win! Cubs Win! The Good Lord wants the Cubs to win!
I think that people keep forgetting that Daria is not as experienced and mature in all areas of life. I don't think she knows if there's something really there, or if it's just a crush, because this is presumably the first time she's felt like this. That's why I'm kind of...disappointed that the Daria/Trent thing is going to be resolved so soon. I don't think enough events have happened between the two, and I don't think Daria has learned much about love and relationships. Knowing this gives me an uneasy feeling of how the whole thing is going to play out.
Yup. To assume it's "just a crush", as some posters do, is rather condescending. Daria's a teenager but she's not really a little kid, her emotions are capable of some depth. Whether this particular emotion will lead to anything more is up to her and Trent.
Yes to both. They don't know each other well enough for "love" (though they do know each other well enough for them to like each other a lot), and Daria is naive, even more so regarding relationships than most girls her age.
I really hope they resolve it in both a dramatic and plausible manner, instead of just copping out on it. It's clear that Trent likes Daria a lot, though whether he's ever thought of her as a potential girlfriend is far from clear. Part of the reason everyone gets so obsessed by Trent is that he's a very private person, his inner feelings are a mystery.
On 15 Mar 1999 20:33:36 GMT, [email] (JBassior) wrote:
Not condescending at all, because I happen to be 17 myself at the moment. And let me tell you, you know when you have a crush, but there's not a thing you can do about it.
If it was love, that would be an emotion. Daria's trained herself pretty well to control her emotions. But she can't control this. Rashes pop up, her eyes bug out, she whispers his name under Cupid's spell. That implies something not emotional. Something hormonal.
I don't want to see it resolved at all, ecspecially not in a dramatic manner. That wouldn't be at all plausible. Extrapolating on my base that this is just a crush, does anyone remember the result of the majority of their high school crushes? 95% of them fizzle out. This thing screams "Anticlimax!"
___
Kyle
I saw the best mind of my generation. I was looking into a mirror at the time.
Cubs Win! Cubs Win! The Good Lord wants the Cubs to win!
Emotions are a combined product of thoughts and the hormones they release, and in turn affect both mental and biochemcial states. It's a complicated feedback system. Hormones are part of the system by which emotions are expressed and triggered, and emotions in turn are part of the system by which hormonal releases are triggered.
Daria may never have experienced anything like this before because she never met anyone like Trent, who is a rather unusual person. Note that Trent seems to also be fascinated by Daria, though he controls the embarassing manifestations of this fascination rather better. Maybe the "crush" is mutual.
High school crushes are rarely as long-lasting as Daria's feelings for Trent. Why doesn't she simply fixate on someone else?
And you leave Amy's love life out of this (sorry, couldn't resist the pun).
On 15 Mar 1999 23:06:26 GMT, [email] (JBassior) wrote:
I'm not going to get into THIS one. Huge can o' worms.
Amazing! You and I look at the same facts and come out of it with totally opposite conclusions.
Daria's inexperience with Trent would make her even *more* withdrawn than usual, even better at hiding her emotion. Trent doesn't seem fascinated to me, but amused. Almost condesceding, the way a 20 something looks at a high schooler.
High school crushes are even more likely to last this long when:
A) Daria doesn't have any serious relationships developing. A brief "fling" with Ted. Why move on when this one's unresolved?
b) Trent is unattainible, and that makes him safe. Daria sees him (subconsciously) as someone out of her reach. Therefore, she can have a crush on him and avoid relationships with other people.
___
Kyle
I saw the best mind of my generation. I was looking into a mirror at the time.
Cubs Win! Cubs Win! The Good Lord wants the Cubs to win!
Dammit, Kyle, you're a genius! You get the Dr. Drew award for best animated psychological insight of the year so far. Last year's award goes to Michelle Klein-Hass, for accurately diagnosing Trent and Jane's Attachment Disorder. ;-)
I think that you've hit the nail right on the head-- she uses the crush as a crutch to avoid real relationships. She somehow equates intense interpersonal relationshipswith getting hurt emotionally. (Considering that most kids model their parents' behavior, that's no big surprise there.) By keeping herself from forming intense interpersonal relationships of her own, she can avoid what she sees as a source only of potential pain, rather than as something that can bring along genuine personal growth. If you want to carry this theory even further, you can look at the way she handled the relationship with Ted-- by taking the unwitting Ted to the arcade, she might have been sabotaging the relationship from a subconscious level-- again, pushing away someone before she develops overwhelming feelings. Or something. <g>
rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
Uh ... guess it couldn't be that she's never met any other guy she really liked, then ...?
Gee, I wonder why *that* is ... couldn't be that she has a *realistic* view of most teenage attempts at romance?
Actually, for all the surface dysfunctionality, Jake and Helen have a stable relationship, which seems likely to last.
And she chose her best friend's brother, a guy she couldn't avoid freqeuntly encountering, because ... ?
A simpler theory here is that she didn't really like Ted all that much to begin with, and that besides she's had very little experience in dating (try *none*).
And I notice that she gets happy, rather than frightened, when Trent responds positively to her. She only seems scared of him when first talking to him on any given occasion (when she doesn't know what to say or if she'll be rejected); afterwards she gets comfortable with him. Furthermore, Trent seems fascinated by her.
Sounds to me like either a more straightforward crush, or a mutual crush, or perhaps the seeds of something more.
And by maintaining a crush on unattainable Trent, she's holding on to some pain also. I'd guess that in romantic areas at least, Daria does have some self esteem problems.
[email] wrote: [Daria and Trent, real love or not]
I do believe that Kyle has hit the nail on the head. The whole thing that Daria has for Trent is based on glandular secretions (known in my day as blood poisoning). She can't help herself, just as nobody can when the hormones kick in. I'm just glad she's fixating on Trent rather than some other HS Y-inhanced mammal.
Hmmm. I seem to remember it going,'Fizzle in, Very Large Bang, Fizzle out'.
But then again, I have trouble remembering exactly when memory goes in the first place.
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
I dunno about this. What Daria's experiencing is definitely a crush, by every sane definition. Of course, Daria is capable of experiencing deep emotions, even at her age. But all that results in, unfortunately, is a very deep crush.
Oh, yes. Daria is just figuring out what all this "liking" other people is about with her friendship with Jane, and now we are all expecting full-on "love" for Trent? She's got a ways to go yet, folks.
I really hope that there's no neat, clean ending to this particular part of the show. It would definitely enhance the reality of the show, and that's something I think we -all- would enjoy.
Chris Majors Keeper of The Daria FAQ: http://www.auburn.net/~cwmajors/dariafaq.htm
And Daria doesn't even know Trent that well...she didn't know him at all in "The Invitation" but she was affected enough to clam up in the car and get peeved at Jane's taunt after they got out. She still tends to hide from Trent unless Jane forces her to do otherwise. She's not a bad judge of character, and she probably has a good idea of what Trent is like (and if Trent were a jerk, Jane would probably know it, and wouldn't be encouraging Daria to get together with him), but she doesn't really know Trent well enough to have more than a heavy crush on him.
On 15 Mar 1999 19:25:02 GMT, [email] (DariaM150) wrote:
Remember, even though she might lack experience, she is a Junior, after all. I am also disappointed that the resolution will come soon, but, hey, it's already been over a year! To drag it along any longer, it would either have to enter a new phase (like they start going out), or just become pathetic.
Hey cool, since I'm gonna be 30 in a weeks time, does that mean I'll suddenly fall in love....hope so....humm now I wonder whare Fiona is these days.......
(She was to me what Trent is to Daria....just so that this post makes a little sense !).
Phill.
/----------------[ Courage is Grace Under Pressure. ]--------------------\
\--------[ I Want to look at life, In the Available Light ]--------------/
Actually, I think the whole 'people under X years old can't feel real love' idea is usually promoted by people who never felt real love below that age. More of a commentary on the person making the pronouncement than on the human race.
Of course, this isn't really what Kyle said, but my thoughts tend to move on tangents.
I tend to think the whole 'people under X years old can't feel real love' idea is usually promoted by people who had their most intense feelings at that age, and don't want to admit to themselves that nothing since then has lived up to it.
Personally, I shudder at the idea of trying to fit variable humans into precise developmental stages like this. I've known 14 year olds who had no trouble feeling real love, and 30 year olds who are incapable of the emotion. Different people are ... well, *different*, and these age boundaries are therefore very imprecise things. Some people develop emotional depth early, and some never at all.
I suspect her crush will deepen into love, and that in fact it may already be in the process of doing so. The key will be when she sees Trent's faults, and is willing to love him in spite of them.
On 14 Mar 1999 18:14:51 GMT, [email] (Kyle) wrote:
Hey, this is the norm on Daria. ALL the original lyrics suck. Mystik Spiral sucked, The Holidays sucked, the guitar player on "Caffe Disaffecto" sucked; they all suck. So, I don't think it's fair to judge Treant according to this. ;p
Definately know about that. I cringe whenever I hear a friend say he's "so in love with her" when he barely knows her.
I think society's obsession with true love that Kyle mentioned earlier factors in on both sides of this. On one hand, this guy is getting confused about what he actually feels because he wants to be in love. On the other hand, I think people like to dismiss feelings like his because they put 'true love' up on a pedestal. I think a case could be made that most of these types of feelings are love, and what we like to call 'true love' is just those cases that happen to work out well and last a while.
I feel much the same way about giant squid as I do about true love. Every now and then, someone finds a big squid washed up on shore, and some scientists take this as evidence that there is a species of giant squid which is very numerous, but which we somehow never manage to find many representatives of. To me, it seems more reasonable to assume that every now and then a normal squid grows very large.
Of course, I don't much personal experience with either love or squid, so what do I know?
I thought it was easy to see crushes for those under 30 unless you're directly involved in them (crusher- thinks they're in 'love,' crushee- doesn't know about it).
Mike Quinn [email] "...the race is long, and in the end it's only with yourself..."
According to the statistician and management guru (!) C Northcote Parkinson, "A wife should be half her husband's age plus seven." [1] (Alli will now reply, "Who said anything about marriage?" <g>)
Of course, by Parkinson's rule, (24/2)+7=19. And when Trent is 24, Daria will be 19....
What do you mean, not taking it seriously? <g>
Martin.
[1] C Northcote Parkinson, _In-laws & Outlaws_, 1962, p42
Erm, all this and nobody's asked why you'd need a rule thing to tell you how old you should be to marry someone and what kind of person would spend time working one out.... :)
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:41:52 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:
A person very obsessed with the subject, and with access to tons of data. ;) You get that number by looking at all the marriages you can, the ages, the success or failure of that marriage, and trying to find an equasion that works to describe the most of them. It doesn't work nearly so well in the social sciences as it does in the hard sciences.
If you leave decisions like that up to people, who knows what kind of crazy things they'll do? People need discipline and structure. A smart guy like Parkinson knows that most people are too stupid to live unless a smart guy like him tells them what to do.
My guess is that Parkinson either took the rule as simply empirical (surveys show that the most successful marriages have ages...) or as a joke. After all, Parkinson's Law sounds like something Mark Twain would say.
Parkinson would probably say: the theory's fine, it's just reality that fails. ;-) Or he might say, "I was talking about their ages when they get married." Whatever he said, it would be a little surprising, since he's been dead since 1993.
One thing he did say was, "In making success available for the first time to all, I have some claim to the gratitude of mankind."
For some strange reason, he's better remembered for Parkinson's Law than for the (m/2)+7=f rule.
Work expands to fill the time available to complete it.
Example: give a group of people two hours to complete a task, and they'll take two hours. Give them three hours for the same task, and it'll take them three hours. Give a contractor three years to rebuild an opera house, and that's how long it'll take (unless it's in Venice).
Parkinson's Law is also used by analogy in other fields. For example, you plan a new road or car park because there are too many cars using the present one. If you plan to accommodate the present volume of users, before long it'll be as congested as the old one. Why? When it first opens it's less congested than the old one, and so it attracts new users who never used the old one because of the old one's congestion. Same with toilets at football grounds. Make them hygenic, attractive environments, and people who in the past crossed their legs sooner than use the bog are now queueing up.
Depends on where you are. When I lived in NJ for 4 years, we had a neighbor who referred to the "restroom" as "the TERlet." (Accent on the first syllable, hence the capitalization.) I still chuckle when I think about that, and I don't know why...
rich.
Jane: You know, I don't know why people say we have a bad attitude.
If ever I have the privilege of visiting the US I'll be sure to bear that in mind. Whether I'll say "restroom" or "toilet" will depend on whether I want to show off my limited knowledge of American English, or play the unwitting Englishman and see what sort of reaction "toilet" gets. <g>
It does sound curiously amusing. In fact, it also sounds a bit like an East Yorkshire accent: I'd expect someone from Kingston upon Hull to ask for the 'Terlet. (In Hull, when they tell you there's a fern cull, it doesn't mean they're out killing vegetation: it's how they say "Phone call.")
I worked with someone who had spent time in the British Administration in Africa, and who thought it a disgrace to see "Toilet" on a door here in the UK: one called them lavatories, didn't one?
One bus route I travelled rarely as a child had a stop labelled "HEADSTOP." I thought it was where the bus crew could stop to use the toilet! (Or bog, jacksie, lavatory, WC, loo, or heads). It wasn't.
At least I now know where the term 'bogroll' comes from and what it's use is. But the saying,"Let's go bogroll the coach's house!" will never take off on this side of the pond. ;)
My brain isn't working very well right now, but isn't it impossible for someone to stay half someone else's age plus seven for very long? Let me think....No, that was a bad idea....
LOL, yeah, considering we've only been "together" for about 3 days! :)
But be patient. When you're 27, your OLB will be 40. Just right! Parkinson's rule: (40/2)+7=40=bingo!
<chuckle> "We're sorry, all of our neurons are busy right now. Your thought is important to us. Please continue to hold, and one of our synapses will be with you soon." <fx: music on hold = Billy Bragg, "The Busy Girl.">
LOL, I'm not sure what Paul'd think if he knew you were planning when he should get married.... :)
Is it me, or does that not look right....?
<groan> Please, not neurones and synapses and stuff, I just did my Biology homework.... :) Biology is one of the few subjects that it's impossible to get away with having done no homework for; you get put on report and in detention and stuff....I don't bother with homework unless it's going to waste my time if I don't. :)
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:59:29 -0000, "Martin Sylvester" wrote:
You mean at the _beginning_ of the marriage, right? <stupid mode> Because if it didn't, you'd have to keep divorcing and remarrying to make the marriage work... and that would completely defeat the point to the statistic. :p </stupid mode>
Well, I think that if Daria and Trent got closer together, a lot of conflict, tension, and comedy could be generated from the results of their relationship. I could go into detail about this, if anyone's interested ... ?
Ah, a supporter of my position! Hope things work out well between you two ...
Ding! You've put your finger on the major incompatibility right there. On the other hand, it's possible that Trent is not so much lazy as depressed and unmotivated, and Daria might be very good for him on both counts. Consider Trent's chaotic family, and reasons for him to be depressed and unmotivated are not hard to find.
They might be very good for each other ... Daria could supply Trent some of the drive he needs, and Trent could teach Daria how to relax and enjoy herself. A lot would depend on them being willing to try to make it work.
To my mind the argument that if they get involved they "should" break up because "most" first loves don't work doesn't hold water ... the reason most first loves don't work is becaue they are shallowly and unrealistically based, and Daria is a rather deep and perceptive person.
On Trent's side, one should remember, it would probably not be "first" love. He's explicitly said, on the TV show, that he thinks Daria's "different" from other girls ... and the way he acts towards her it is plain that she's different in a way that he deeply appreciates and values.
Well, that depends. The part of me that has to wade through lots and lots of posts about the subject says "No! Please, God, no! Not another thread on this subject! Aiiigh!" ;-) But then the part of me that roots for the underdog (notice the *lowercase* "u") <g> doesn't want to see her get trampled on by others *again.*
The real problem with it is that it'll change the whole Daria/Jane dynamic, which is why I watch the show in the first place. Will it change it for the better? I dunno. The worse? I dunno. That's why I'm kinda lukewarm about the whole thing. I realize that the characters have to develop, or else it becomes boring, but I also think that the chemistry they have working between the characters is really good, and I'd hate to see it banjaxed just because the TEB thinks that he's "tasty." (Gratuitous "Better Off Dead" ref of the evening. <g>)
The interesting thing is that frankly, we don't know anything significant about Trent. We know that he's in a band, plays some gigs, writes some tunes with terrible lyrics (but they're funny), lives over his parents' garage, is always short on money, and sleeps a lot. He's always been nice to Daria, and cares about his sister. There are a lot of debates over certain little moments, but he's never given any *significant* indication of where his feelings lie, other than that he thinks Daria is cool. But then again, he probably bought the quacking duck phone because it was cool, too. ;-)
Other than that, there ain't a whole hell of a lot to go on, despite how some people attempt to overanalyze everything. As a character, he shows up every now and then, and gets some time in some eps, but we really don't understand what makes him tick, mostly because he's not the focus of the show.
All that said, I also think some people have confused a crush with real love. Crushes come and go, but real love means that you want to be with someone, even when they annoy the *hell* out of you. You love them as a whole person-- a real live human being that sometimes pisses you off, and sometimes grosses you out, not as some idealistic mannequin-like robot who never has dragon breath <g> (which is why crushes aren't about love, they're about "like" -- which is a whole different topic.) It's still painful when a crush doesn't work out, but that's mostly because people don't like it when you mess with their dreams, if you know what I mean.
Okay, it'd be kinda cute to see Daria drop the armor and get all gushy, but I don't know if it'd be the healthiest thing for the show. *shrug*
<snippage>
Actually, a couple of my friends (who are now married), met in HS, fell in love, went to college, broke up, got back together after college, and found out that they loved each other as real people. Breaking up for a year or so was probably the best thing that could've happened to them, because they realized just how good of a match they were. They also managed to develop as individuals, rather than as parts of a Couple. But they're the exception to the "first love" rule. Everyone else that I knew in HS dated around a lot and married someone not from their HS. Odd? No. Reality.
Yes, I know that sometimes crushes can become something more, but it isn't the healthiest place to begin a relationship, either. Real love comes when you have a good idea of who you are, and you find someone you respect, who respects you-- it comes from a whole different place. It's hard to explain. (Duh!) ;-)
Having been the object of a couple of crushes, I can say that it's a little disconcerting when someone you barely know (or don't know that well) tells you that she's been dreaming about you. It's even scarier if you don't remember her name, and she starts telling you how she always thought you were so perfect, etc., etc. =:-o Suddenly, you feel responsible for that person's emotional well-being, and that can be a real bummer if you're looking for a relationship that's a combination of equals, and it's even worse if you think you have to figure out a way to let her down easily. (Newsflash: there ain't no way to let someone down easily-- use the Band-Aid rule-- quick and direct is best, but it's still painful-- stringing people along is even worse and messier, and can really screw someone up.)
But, anyway, what the hell was I saying? I forget. Oh, yeah, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not, but if it'll keep down the number of D/T related threads, well, then I'm all for it. ;-)
now, who wants to discuss ale? or Japanese suicide methods? ;-)
I really don't agree. A lot of people seem to have the idea that
for love to be "real," it has to be based on genuine understanding and
acceptance of the other person. Of course that's the way love SHOULD
be, but I think it is possible to be seriously in love with someone
even if that love is based on an unrealistic image. That's not the
right kind of love to have, but it can still be far more than
"just a crush."
In other words, the intensity of your feelings and whether those
feelings are well-founded are two entirely different matters.
To be seriously in love and then to find out that your love
lacks a good basis is a pretty wrenching experience, as I found out
when I was around Daria's age, or maybe a year or two older. For
that reason it would make pretty good drama; I know _I_ would be able
to identify with it.
Love not based on acceptance of the other person as a real person won't last, no matter how good the sex may be, or how much you may think you need the other person. It's a house of cards in a hurricane. (At least that's been my experience in the Love Arena- of course, YMMV.) When you're young, it's okay to have relationships that end-- you have to learn what you're looking for in a life partner, and the best way to do it is through trial and error. It's perfectly normal. I realize that most relationships aren't based on the kind of love I was talking about-- that's why most of them reach an end. But for serious long-term relationships to last, there has to be some sort of understanding on a realistic level of who the other person *really* is, and an acceptance of that person, warts and all.
But it's not love either-- it's something that is an intense emotion, granted, but it's more like an attraction thing than a love thing. Love involves real people, not idealized unreal people.
Amourous feelings that are not reciprocated, or are poorly reciprocated will, in most people, eventually wither and die like anything that isn't fed and/or nurtured. When amorous feelings persist, then the person with the feelings is in some sort of denial, or is using it as some sort of a crutch to avoid the pain of loss and the necessity of moving on, mourning the loss, and getting on with life.
Most of us go through something like that at least once. It's perfectly normal. Pain is a much better teacher than pleasure, or lack of pain. Through experiencing pain, we grow. When we go out of our way to avoid pain, we don't learn squat. It's that simple.
I'm not saying that a crush isn't an emotionally valid thing, nor am I saying that it isn't a potential source of rather intense pain. I'm saying that if I was looking for a foundation to build a relationship on, it isn't the best building material by a long shot. It's a lesson that a lot of us have had to learn, most of us the hard way. *shrug*
I agree-- it would make good drama, I'm just not sure about it as a sitcom plot. But that's Susie and Glenn's call, not mine. (Thank God!) ;-) Because no matter how the whole thing turns out, someone's gonna be pissed. ;-)
c'est la vie, (damn! now I can't get Edith Piaf's "La Vie En Rose" out of my head.) rich.
Jane: Usually when I have this dream I'm wearing pink taffeta.
Hey, he didn't say it would last, just that it was real. More on this below.
All right! Time for some hair splitting. [cracks knuckles]
Really, it's just a matter of definitions (like almost every other argument on usenet). It is impossible to have a completely accurate picture of another person, so any love is going involve idealized people to some extent. Having disposed of the trivial case, we can move on to something more substantial.
Almost everyone puts a dividing line somewhere on the spectrum of emotion, and says, 'everything on this side is love, everything on the other side isn't.' A lot of advocates of love like to be pretty conservative and not call it love unless it's extremely serious. Other people are more charitable and call just about anything love. Personally, I prefer the latter strategy because I don't believe in taking anything too seriously.
Some people make a big fuss over love and say it's the only worthwhile thing in life and so forth. I think this is unrealistic and unhealthy. Love may or may not be the best thing in life, but there are certainly many good things in life. To base true happiness only on true love is an unwise idea. It's going to result in people desperately and unsuccessfully seeking love and spending a lot of time unhappy. If people take the view that love is a delicious part of this complete breakfast, they'll be a lot more satisfied.
Then again, maybe I just watch too much television.
I must admit that this is part of the reason I hope it'll work out cleanly, one way or another. For Daria to get involved with Trent only to break up would be far crueller than for him to simply reject her. Having the object of a crush reject you is something you get over rather quickly; having a serious love affiar fall apart can devastate you emotionally for months or years.
I like Daria's relationship with Jane too, but one way or another these girls are going to be growing up, unless the series is cancelled. Actually, I could see a lot of interesting consequences implicit in Daria and Trent falling in love; Jane may have helped arrange it but might still be jealous that her favorite sibling and best friend were becoming more interested in each other than either was in her (as she might see it).
Either they develop or they don't develop. Daria is a potentially very charismatic young woman; she's highly moral but that doesn't mean she's going to live like a nun forever. She's going to fall in love with someone, sometime, and that can't help but change her life. I'd rather see this be with someone who loves her back than with a succession of users.
One of the things I hate most about a lot of sitcoms is that characters are mired in their "roles" out of fear that character development would destroy the (moneymaking) character dynamics. (An extreme example of this was the old Mary Tyler Moore show). This has the effect of turning the series into one long torture of any characters with any personal problems, a disconcerting effect if you watch the whole run.
A lot more can be inferred from what's been shown. I really don't want to go into this, it's a whole other topic.
More than that; he's willing to discuss significant life choices with her. He clearly respects her opinion.
One analyzes the information available, like in any other discussion of a fictional (or real) character.
Absolutely true, but how do you tell (either in real life or in fiction) whether a given attraction is simply a crush or the first stage of real love? I'd like to point out here that Daria HAS seen some of Trent's less attractive sides; his little sister is her best friend, she often goes to his shows, and they've spent prolonged periods in each other's company at least twice by my count, and that's just what's been shown on TV.
Daria's also not the most self-delusive kind of person. Admittedly she's smitten with him, but that only goes so far, when you've seen someone's room and smelt their dirty clothing.
First of all, I don't think Daria's the "gushy" type, at least not in public. Secondly, I would find a show about the development of a woman from a semi- cynical, repressed teenager into a DEEPLY cynical, embittered young woman (which is what will logically happen if Daria never finds anyone to love) to be a bit too dark to laugh at. I wouldn't laugh at a friend of mine with a life story meeting that description.
Not that Trent has to be the one she falls in love with (he's simply the most obvious candidate given her existing crush), but WHOEVER she falls in love with, it's going to change her character somewhat. We call this "growing up."
My fiancee suggested just this plotline for Daria and Trent. Who knows, they might go with it. Might be realistic too ... Trent might not realize how much he cared for Daria until he'd already lost her to someone else. Right now, he may take her attention for granted.
Exogamous impulse. Not odd at all. Of course, Trent *isn't* one of Daria's classmates, and he hardly fits the Lawndale HS mold.
This is actually one of the reasons I think that Daria's feelings for Trent may be more than a normal crush. It seems to me that she knows the core of him pretty well, and respects it. His fascination with her also seems to be based on a deep respect for her. (Indeed, this very respect may be what inhibits him from making a move).
But Trent is well aware of Daria. She's his sister's best (and only) friend, and a person whom he seems fascinated by. He also knows her pretty well, considering that they move in different circles.
I don't know that Trent really feels all that "superior" to Daria; actually, it may be the other way around. Consider what Daria would look like to you if you were Trent: this incredibly intelligent, fun girl who has come out of nowhere and finally brought his beloved little sister out of her shell. She's only 16, yet demonstrates considerable wisdom and insight, to the point where you wind up taking her advice on an important matter.
It's quite possible that, far from being "amused" by her crush on him (which would require an amazing degree of either callousness or stupidity, think about it) that it genuinely scares him. Trent is well aware that he is not a success by any conventional means, while Daria is potentially a great success by the standards that matter once you leave high school.
A casual sexual relationship with her (like most of his probably are) would be right out; she's his sister's best friend (1), and a naive, emotionally intense virgin who would be badly scarred by something like that. A serious relationship may look equally a bad idea; she's going to be going away to college, where she's bound to meet guys who (Trent might feel) are much better than him.
He may very well return her affections, yet consider it the best thing for HER for him not to act upon them. Unrealistically noble? Maybe I just have a better opinion of Trent than you do.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
(1) Ever consider that if he does Daria dirty Jane would be a LONG time forgiving him for this?
Unfortunately, this could be seen by the writers as a good thing. If they resolve the situation between Daria and Trent, they'll have to have something lasting to replace it with. The two most obvious choices are 1) a relationship and 2)a bad breakup. Ever notice how much of the 'great' literature involves tragedy? Making Daria bitter would help reinforce her cynicism.
Like you, I'd prefer not to see that happen. Boring, and I think it's the wrong direction to take the show. And as long as I'm on the subject of bad ideas, talking about Quinn's fear of her parents having children gave me the same fear. Just about every long running show I've seen involves a new baby sooner or later. The most obvious candidates for this are Jake and Helen. Frankly, I'm even more tired of that plotline than I am of bitter breakups.
True, and making a successful love interesting requires better writing. It's been done, many times, but it's harder to derive humor from this than it is to simply have an embittered, self-depreciating heroine (the force driving a lot of standup comediennes' acts these days).
I wouldn't like it: as I've made plain, I like Daria the character, and don't like the idea of her seriously suffering. Plus, I think that if she gets any more cynical, it will pass beyond the realm of comedy.
I dunno ... could be funny. Helen's kind of old though, and both parents seem rather absorbed in their careers. Probably won't happen.
On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:29:12 -0500, Jeg7777 wrote:
The good Lord works in mysterious ways. Tommy John surgery usually leads to a full recovery, at least in recent years. This will give him a year off, and keep the Cubs from sacrificing a 26-34 year old Kerry Wood who is unhittable for a 22 year old Kerry Wood who throws 200 innings (That was actually their projection for him this year. Inexcusable!)
___
Kyle
I saw the best mind of my generation. I was looking into a mirror at the time.
Cubs Win! Cubs Win! The Good Lord wants the Cubs to win!
Daria's maintained this fixation for something like a year or so MTVerse time. Furthermore, the object of her affection shows at least considerable liking for her. It might turn out to be just a crush in the end, but it seems a bit more deep and realistically founded than most sentiments I would term "crushes".
Furthermore, Jane (who presumably understands Trent better than most of the show's viewers, since she's had a lifetime to know him) constantly encourages this sentiment from both directions. Maybe Jane knows something about Trent's feelings which hasn't been revealed yet on the show. Seems unlikely that she would deliberately try to hurt her best friend.
There's also been plenty of evidence that Trent is fascinated with Daria in some way; he eavesdrops on her, he goes out of his way to talk to her, and has explicitly told her that he thinks she's "different" from most girls (in a good way). Unless Trent is a major creep, it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that this "crush" may be mutual.
Now, this doesn't change the fact that Daria and Trent don't know each other well enough yet to love each other deeply, but it does make it unlikely that it's just a case of a fickle, silly younger girl temporarily fixating on a handsome older man who doesn't notice her existence. There's some sort of mutual attraction here, though it may not be sexual on Trent's part.
Nonsense. Daria's basically an idealist who uses cynicism as armor against a world she doesn't always understand very well (and sometimes, understands all *too* well). She cares passionately about her ideals (honesty, sincerity, self-consistency) and has shown anguish in situations where she feels she is being forced to violate them. She cares very deeply for her friend Jane, and (though she'd die rather than admit this) for her family. She is strongly attracted to Trent.
Daria doesn't let other people see these emotions very often because she is afraid that others, if they knew of her feelings, would use them against her, to hurt her. This attitude is both realistic and quite common among smart, alienated, teenage girls.
I dunno ... Trent seems a bit shy around Daria, considering his age and (presumed) experience. Maybe he senses that there's something in her which he's never seen in any other girl (he almost said as much in "Road Worriers") and he's scared of spoiling it by making an unwanted advance. He's happy just being friends with her ... for now.
Maybe *Daria* will have to make the first move.
How serious is Trent about these girlfriends (especially the "future girlfriends" he might find at the Fashion Show, LOL)? We never see any of these in the show, except Monique (who he runs into by accident, and in context seems more likely to be an EX-girlfriend). If they were a big part of his life, why wouldn't he bring them to his house (as Jane brings Daria)?
It seems likely that Trent's other relationships are (or have been) extremely shallow; it's unlikely that he connects with them emotionally or intellectually the way he does with Daria. It's quite possible that the reason he doesn't make a move on Daria isn't because he sees her as too immature and unattractive to be a potential girlfriend, but rather precisely BECAUSE he respects her more than the other girls he's met. He may not feel able to make such a committment, and he knows that if he did get involved with Daria he would hurt her very badly if it led to a breakup.
Trent has feelings. Everyone has feelings. Just because Trent is a low-key kind of guy doesn't mean he's emotionless. The Trent who's agonizing over his future in "Road Worriers" is not as laid-back (or mindless) as he sometimes pretends to be.
Remember, Trent grew up in a chaotic family where everyone expressed their "feelings" without any regard for anyone else's sanity. The defining purpose of his life has probably always been to protect his little sister against this emotional maelstrom.
Maybe he avoids expressions of (any) kind of passion because he's seen how badly they can hurt people. His music is his primary emotional outlet ... there, he expresses the feelings he normally keeps bottled in.
Jane's very similar in some ways, though more playful (she's been the protected little sister, not the protector). She expresses her feelings in her art.
Characters are often more complex than they seem at first glance.
On 15 Mar 1999 23:02:14 GMT, [email] (JBassior) wrote:
Not that uncommon for an unattainable crush. Notice that Ted slipped in there for a minute?
Jane's amused by it, and really does want to see Daria happy. But the road to hell...
I don't see that at all. Trent is just so easygoing, he tries to ignore it. He seems to honest to me to not do something if he did like her. He really does feel she's different, which she is.
I completely and utterly disagree. But that's what makes life fun.
I completely and totally agree. But that's what makes life fun.
Daria's control over her emotions is what makes it even less likely to be something emotional, rather than hormonal.
___
Kyle
I saw the best mind of my generation. I was looking into a mirror at the time.
Cubs Win! Cubs Win! The Good Lord wants the Cubs to win!
On 16 Mar 1999 01:12:24 GMT, [email] (Kyle) wrote:
This response contains season 3 spoilers:
I have to agree with you on this. Jane has expressed only the greatest joy and amusement every time Daria expressed anything even resembling the feelings of a normal teenager. Included are her many jibes about Treant, and:
"This is really cool. You're really into this guy" (in reference to Ted Dewitt-Clinton)
"Daria! ("You hate me") This is so cool! Wanna borrow my lipstick?" (There's the spoiler)
I think the age difference thing has a lot to do with this. I know what it is to be interested in someone who is probably too young, at least for the time being, and Treant is behaving very similarly to the way I do in this sort of situation. I'm willing to bet at least one of the writers has in mind some titanic inner battle within Treant's mind, as he wrestles with the question: "Is she, in fact, too young for me?" The net result of this battle is usually a strong friendship, that could possibly develop into something more in the future, at least, I _think_ this is how it might possibly work. Then again, I'm just wierd, so... funny, my train of thought just derailed. Oh well.
I actually agree partially with you there, in that Jane may not have thought things through fully; she's demonstrated impulsiveness before. She might have just gotten the idea in her head that Daria liked Trent, this was cool, she was going to try and get her best friend and favorite brother together no matter what!
On the other hand, it's been a year MTVerse time and she's still trying. Maybe she knows Trent is also interested. If Trent has never been very successful at keeping a girlfriend before this (likely inference, as we've never seen any other girlfriends around, only one possible ex), Jane would proably intrerpret this as "he's never found the right girl".
I think the age difference is part of Trent's problem, but not the whole part. For one thing, even at the beginning she wasn't that far underage (and nobody usually cares about a 21-16 kind of match, even though in some states it would be considered statutory rape or molestation). Now, it's even less of an issue.
I think he has more serious worries than that, as I've outlined in other posts. Namely the fear that it couldn't last and that he'd only be badly hurting someone he cares about a lot. Which is also why he doesn't just turn her down; he'd be badly hurting her that way too (although not as badly as if they got involved and then broke up). It makes the horns of his dilemna all the sharper in that Daria's his sister's best and only friend, and that Jane is probably the person he cares the most about in the whole world.
True, but why is Daria's attraction for Trent "irrational?" Seems to me that she admires him for his good qualities, in a perfectly reasonable manner. She doesn't act on it well, but perhaps you should check the definition of the term "shy" for an explanation of her conduct towards him.
I'm not sure what you imagine his friends have "done" ... I would think they'd be a bunch of musically-oriented semi-slackers like himself. If by "done" you mean sexually ... heh, by that standard even *Quinn's* "done" a lot more than Daria (seeing that AFAIK Daria's never even been kissed).
But so what? The club scene isn't as fascinating as you imagine, even in New York, and it's probably a whole lot less fascinating in Lawndale (where ever that may be). Most of the people in the club scene are posers anyway ... note Trent's commentary on this to Daria in the track episode. Daria has a unique and well-informed perspective, which is probably why Trent values her opinion.
As for sexual experience, it's not as important as you might think from the perspective of someone already sexually active (as we presume Trent is or has been). Indeed, Daria's innocence may be one of the things which attracts him to her ... that's how male psychology works. Daria is innocent yet wise, and that's a powerfully appealing combination.
One could argue that the lack of importance of his (hypothetical) previous girlfriends in hs life implies that Trent has never really known love, and thus in that respect he may be every bit as inexperienced as Daria. As for this "level" stuff ... I'm not sure what you mean by it, but if it's what I think you mean I suspect that neither Trent nor Daria would be very impressed by the concept. They're both people who prefer to deal with the world directly rather than play silly games, at any level.
Some degree of attraction is required for any positive relationship, friendly, romantic, or otherwise. Trent treats Daria like a friend ... he is nice towards her, is willing to confide in her, and respects her opinion. Indeed, they would probably be closer friends were Daria not so attracted to him romantically, and rendered shy by this attraction.
No, but admiration is a component of any healthy romantic feeling. An important component. Those who are only attracted to people they despise are doomed to disappointment in life.
True, but as far as we know Trent is a heterosexual. So this objection doesn't apply here.
Don't know whether it will happen, but it's hardly a "huge leap" ... there's been tremendous foreshadowing of it in the series so far.
Now, Daria having a romantic relationship with *Jane* ... that would be a "huge leap". But that's something I *really* don't see happening.
On 26 Mar 1999 05:16:47 GMT, [email] (JBassior) wrote:
Possible Season 3 spoiler alerts
(should be about 40 - now on with the show)
For that matter has Quinn? We haven't even seen her *hug* a guy she was dating - she shoved off those two in Daria Dance Party - then again having *two* guys trying to slow dance with you would be more than a little akward. (hence the spoiler warning) But the fact is that we've never seen anyone Quinn was physically attracted to enough to kiss, hug or do anything other than take advantage (although she has made comments about "the back seat" - "He's going to have to do a lot better than movie/burger/backseat, movie/burger/backseat..." (can't remember the episode, but that line sticks out for some reason). So in that respect I'd say Quinn is just as inexperienced sexually and emotionally - she just has the dating game down to a science.
<snip a buncha stuff I don't feel like addressing right now - maybe tommorrow>
Um, yes, she's done more than Daria, both romantically and sexually. Of course this isn't saying very much, Daria's love life has so far consisted of one date with someone who didn't like her very much and a prolonged crush on another guy who does but probably considers her too nice to trifle with.
However, I suspect that Quinn is a lot more innocent than you would guess from all her dating. I see no evidence that she's ever really loved or even strongly liked any of the guys she goes out with, and sexually I would be very surprised if she'd gone beyond "second base" (if that far). Remember, she's only 15, and she's a "tease", not a "slut". The whole point of being a "tease" is to control boys by leaving them frustrated. This is a dangerous game, especially when you play it as energetically and ignorantly as Quinn, and I understand why fanfic writers tend to have bad things happen to her.
Slightly more experienced sexually (she "makes out"), *much* less experienced emotionally ... she's never been in any relationship even as emotionally serious as Daria's friendship with Trent.
And again, she wouldn't have the slightest idea how to "handle" Trent. She would try to manipulate him and be totally lost when he refused to let himself be manipulated by him. The reason Trent likes Daria is because he's impressed by her intelligence, honesty, and moral integrity, not because he simply has a "thing" for younger women.
That's Esteemsters, #101 IIRC. From the "test" that she was automatically exempt from. <g>
I remember a fanfic saying that Quinn had never been kissed, and somehow it rang true to me. She seems the type to do everything associated with dating except actual contact with the guy. Very tragic, IMO, because if she would just open her eyes a bit she might actually happen across someone she would enjoy being with.
I would assume that Quinn makes out with her dates (what else is going on in the "backseat" part of her movie/dinner/backseat routine), but I don't think she goes very far with them, probably not much (if anything) beyond hugging and kissing. She's only 15, after all, and she views dating as a game, she's not in love with any of the guys she goes out with, and it's been shown in several eps that she's rather shy of actual body contact with males.
Quinn's a tease, not a slut.
enjoy being with.
I agree. As I've said before, I think that Daria's relationship with Trent is actually more serious (right *now*, and on *both* sides) than any Quinn has ever been in. At least Daria and Trent are real friends, who genuinely know and care about each other. All Quinn's admirers ever get to know is her facade.
"Experimenting with life?" What exactly are you talking about? And what special insights do you imagine Trent has gained from his "experiments" that would be incomprehensible to Daria?
Yes, by night Mystik Spiral travels about in the Tank, going to creepy old houses and uncovering phoney ghosts and ... no wait, that's another band.
No, actually she couldn't. Trent perceives Quinn as a silly little girl, and her constant flirtatiousness and attempts to manipulate people simply annoy him. This has been made fairly obvious in the series.
You are also (massively) overestimating Quinn's sophistication. She would be much more out of her depths in Trent's circles than Daria is.
I don't remember. From what I *do* remember their "date" didn't get very far, in any sense of the word.
lot*.
Ooh, share with us the great deepness of your amazing experiences ...
Happening? Heck, it's "edgy!"
As far as we've seen in the show, he seems to consider her mature in all the ways he values. Maybe he's more than a bit sick of the phoney "maturity" of people whose claim to such is their sexual and narcotics experience ... there are things he says to her in several episodes which strongly imply this.
previous girlfriends in hs life implies that Trent has never really known >> love, and thus in that respect he may be every bit as inexperienced as >> Daria.
Why is it a "stretch?" We never see and he never mentions any previous girlfriends save for one scene with Monique, in which it's not even clear that she *was* his "girlfriend". Actually, the only reason I assume him to be "experienced" is that most men his age who move in his circles are or have been sexually active. Trent doesn't seem to currently have much if any love life, based on the evidence presented in the show.
Really? What's Daria "looking for", what's Trent "looking for", and why are the two incompatible?
I suspect what you're saying is that Daria would want "true love" and Trent plans to be leaving Lawndale, so wouldn't want to make that sort of commitment. Actually, this (rather than a lack of attraction) is what I suspect to be the main reason why Trent doesn't want Daria to be his girlfriend; he cares too much about her to hurt her by loving her and then moving on.
comes with it.
Heh, in Lawndale this sort of "level" seems to be unattained by many of the *adult* characters. I'd argue that "life experience" is almost meaningless without wisdom, and that Daria has wisdom to spare. The main manifestations of her naivete are her honesty and morality, both traits which Trent clearly finds *attractive*.
OK, but since I know little about either of you I have no particular idea why you would or would not be romantically attracted to her. The possible reasons are almost infinite.
Actually, I didn't understand what you were saying very well; you prefer to use innuendo rather than direct statement. However, having a bit of "life experience" myself I can guess:
You think that Trent couldn't possibly find Daria sexually attractive because she is 1) young, and 2) plain.
As for (1), I think he finds her to be more mature than most girls his own age, he as much as said so in at least one episode, possibly others. As for (2), I don't think Trent is that much stuck on looks. Anyway, Daria does have a certain quiet beauty, and one which would tend to grow on anyone who liked her.
Incidentally, if Trent's *not* attracted to Daria, why does he act fascinated by her? Why does he sometimes listen in on her conversations with Jane? Why does he go out of his way to include her in events like the birthday present trip in "Piercing"? Why does he ask her advice in crucial life decisions?
If he's not attracted to her, he has a damn funny way of showing it.
Maybe. If so it's a prolonged tease, and one which the writers have shown sufficient evidence for its reality that they will need a good explanation if they are to have it all turn out to be an unrequited crush. (I can think of more than one good explanation offhand, but if they don't provide *any* they will be implying some rather nasty things about Trent's personality).
Both Daria and Jane are heterosexual, hence a lesbian relationship would appear to be highly improbable.
I've been reading up on this thread, and let me tell you this, there should really be no issue about the age difference between Daria and Trent. They'll work it out, we'll see, at least as just friends!
I speak from experience. For about a year I've been in a serious relationship with someone. I'm 20. He's 30. There's a ten year age difference between the two of us. But is that a hinderance? NO. Is he interested in me because I'm younger? NO. Has he taken advantage of me? NO. We've spent some "time" together, and while that may mean I'm a little more experienced than Daria or Quinn (then again, how old are they again? 17 and 15? And I'm 20? There you go), we have never gone all the way. Out of respect for each other.
If Trent really cares for Daria, he'll respect her just as my boyfriend respects me. Meaning he'll never do anything Daria doesn't want to do, nor will be out to hurt her. I believe that deep down inside, Trent is a gentleman and will certainly respect Daria. And he'd certainly wait till she was 18 to further the friendship, if that's what he AND she want to do.
Besides, when did age become an indicator of a person's experience? My boyfriend has only had one serious relationship before me, and even then he's told me she was cold and didn't like affection much (meaning kissing, nothing more). (Just so you'll know it's because he has a little weight problem and people are often put off by it, which is a tragedy because if they'd really get to know him they'd see that he is a wonderful human being and a beautiful soul.)
So...what's the deal?
deena lissa yup, I'm definitely in love
"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
It might have been more of hinderance if you'd been 16 when you two first met. Though that's the sort of hinderance which vanishes naturally, given time ... as it is fast vanishing between Daria and Trent.
On your other points about your relationship, he sounds like a nice guy who genuinely cares for you. I wish the best to both of you. :)
I completely agree wtih your analysis of Trent's character. If he were a bounder he probably already would have taken advantage of her crush, given his obvious fascination with her. The show makes very clear that he respects her very much.
Another thing to consider is that Trent was raised in a chaotic home environment in which there was probably always a lot of money but a shortage of parenting. This sort of situation usually produces callous, selfish and exploitative people; the reason why Trent ISN'T like this can be summed up in one word: Jane.
What kept Trent sane was probably the fact that from around age 4-5 (when he could no longer count on attention any more simply because he was young) he had a little sister to take care of and protect from harm. His relationship with his sister would have been the most stable and healthy thing in his life.
A boy who grows up defining his relationship to girls in terms of the defense of a younger sister is not going to behave badly towards women when he becomes a man. He will view his romantic role as being that of a friend and protector; in other words, he will act like "a gentleman."
Consider how Daria looks like from Trent's perspective. She's his sister's age, thus he's even more likely to perceive her as a "little sister" than he would, say, Monique. She befriended his sister ... this could be a negative if she was a bad influence on Jane, but Daria is clearly a good influence on Jane, since she has more common sense and tries to steer Jane away from the trouble Jane's impulsiveness gets her into. Since Daria is both nice to Trent and very good for Jane, Trent would be bound to see her in a positive light. But there's more.
Daria clearly reminds Trent of Jane in some ways. This confuses him, and probably inhibits him from romantic feelings, because that's not something you're supposed to feel for a little sister.
However, Trent knows she's not really Jane. In some ways, Daria reminds Trent more of himself (including that she acts as Jane's protector). Trent may in time grow to think of her as a female complement, and *that* is the attitude which leads to deep and abiding love.
Yes, once Daria's no longer a minor his eyes may be opened somewhat. Though I still think the situation will need a nudge (one which Jane would be all too happy to provide).
That's a good point. Incidentally, while Trent is definitely more "experienced" than Daria (wouldn't be hard), we really don't know very much about his love life prior to the time period of the show. We do have strong reason to believe that during the time period of the show he hasn't had any serious relationships ... if he had, they would be by the Lane house and Daria could not avoid meeting them. All we know is that Monique may have been his girlfriend (and certainly was a friend).
Trent actually doesn't seem very sexually driven. He seems to be a hetrosexual ... he displays signs of attraction towards women, anyway, and not just Daria ... but he doesn't seem like someone to whom sex (per se) is very important. (The bit about "dating models" that he once said is merely a conventional part of a rock star's image, not necessarily his deepest ambition). It's quite possible that he hasn't had any sexual relationships during the period shown on TV (a little over a year, MTVerse time).
soul.)
He sounds like a good man, Deena. Again, I'm happy for you ... I don't know you but you're one of the nicer posters on this group, and I'm glad that you're happy.
I think some people *want* life to treat Daria badly, for unknown reasons. Or maybe they think that life just inherently sucks and it would be unrealistic for the show to depict anything *good* happening to Daria.
And they use the age difference as an excuse for why it shouldn't happen.
Good point. And...yeah...ten years down the road, the age difference will only be a minor issue at most.
Thank you for your kind words and well wishes. I really appreciate them.
his
YES! Exactly!
of
Good point...VERY good point. It seems like our Jane brings out the best in highly intelligent people who actually HAVE good qualities.
had
My boyfriend's kinda like that; his grandfather was abusive to his mother and grandmother, and so he had to step in and defend them. 'Tis one of the reasons why he's chosen to be as sweet as he is today, because he doesn't want to be like that.
becomes
protector;
Very good points, all.
age,
would,
was
Jane's
Hm...you make very good sense there. Yeah, Daria COULD be detrimental towards Jane influence-wise, but they seem to be more like kindred spirits only out to live life their own way. I think they both kinda keep them out of trouble's way.
And...the thing with Monique...I did notice a LITTLE how there could have been attraction between the two in the past (heck, even Daria noticed), but ultimately I think Trent and Monique were more like mentors to each other and fellow musicians. Musicians have a certain bond that no one else can have. It's almost like a brotherhood. That's what I mostly felt was the vibe behind it all.
Which shows Trent to have a conscience. Another positive attribute.
VERY good point. Hadn't quite thought of that.
I can just imagine Jane setting the birthday girl Daria up on a blind date...with her brother. Fan fic idea...anyone, anyone? Bueller? (had to do it!)
"experienced"
believe
relationships
AMEN! I know Trent might probably well have experienced more of just general LIFE than Daria (you: "no lie..."), of course because since he's older and all, it doesn't mean he's had any more experience in the dating scene than Daria has. I would be more inclined to believe that Trent's visited more places, in fact, which isn't anything really when factored into a relationship.
Good point, too, about the relationships while "Daria"'s aired. There HAS been no girlfriend for Trent. And the whole deal at the tattoo parlor with Monique seemed more to me like a fraternization with a fellow musician (the "brotherhood") than anything else.
hetrosexual
part
on
I don't think he's really been sexually active. He doesn't seem to be the type. Maybe he's ALMOST done it, but hasn't yet gone all the way yet.
I do definitely think, though, that he's absolutely heterosexual. No doubt at all.
you
Aw...thank you. He is...VERY good. He's made me believe in love and romance, because before him I too was cynical about romantic things. And thanks about the comment that I was nice...you guys have certainly made it easier for me to be nice because of the way you've welcomed me since my first awkward steps into this newsgroup. And for that I thank you. (not going to launch into Alanis Morrisette, though *g*)
Certainly not much good has happened to Daria since she's moved to Lawndale, besides befriending Jane and meeting Trent. She's been used, manipulated, teased, harrassed, made an outcast, misunderstood, forced to do things against her will, and picked on. It would be unnatural for ONLY bad things to happen to her. The people behind the show must know this, and because of that they probably give her reasons to hope (Helen's deep support in "Arts n' Crass", friendship with Jane, crush on Trent, who notices her, ability to crush Upchuck with a single *push*, etc., etc., etc.).
So...you're saying they're using a little tiny thing and blowing it up to huge proportions to satisfy themselves?
Thanks for the kind words, and thanks for the support. :)
deena lissa
"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Yes, for both you and for Daria. In Daria's case, in 10 years she would be 27 and Trent 32, which is not a problem at all. In fact, women usualy marry slightly older men.
A minor digression on age here:
We know (Daria Diaries) that Jake met Helen after he graduated a military high school, which means that he was at least 18, and possibly older at their first acquaintance. Indeed, when Jake graduated, Americans were still going to Vietnam, which dates his graduation to 1973 or earlier. This means that the *youngest* Jake could be now is 43 or 44, and he is probably a bit older.
At some point after meeting Helen they became lovers. This occurred when Helen had just turned "legal" ... remember that Jake was worried about that (though determined to love her anyway). This means that Helen was 16-18 years old at this point, depending upon the laws of whatever state they were in (probably Virginia).
Jake and Helen marry in June 1975. Since Helen is 42-43 now, this means that she was 18-19 back then. And Jake was at *least 20-21 years old, and probably older. Indeed, their age gap could easily have been almost as great as that between Daria and Trent.
Why belabor this point? Because it looks very much like Helen's love life consisted essentially of meeting an older man, having her first serious relationship with him, marrying him, and having this marriage last over two decades, with no real sign of their love dying as of yet (remember what they did when they finally got Daria and Quinn out of the house in "Road Worriers").
Now, people form their romantic expectations based upon their observations of their parents, and Daria is a particularly observant girl. For her to be attracted to Trent, with the (subconscious) expectation that they will fall in love, get married, and have their marriage last would make perfect psychological sense.
Also note that despite their stylistic differences (Jake is an openly ranting maniac and Trent saves his angst for his music) there seem to be certain psychological similarities between Jake and Trent. Certainly, they seemed to be kindred spirits in the musical episode.
Jake's positive attitude towards Trent is very significant, because given Daria's normal avoidance of men (indeed, of people in general), given Trent's obvious interest in Daria (he's the only male who ever calls on her, whether on the phone or in person), given Jake's own romantic experience (not much before he met Helen), and especially given his normal overprotectiveness towards Daria (he's constantly afraid that she's "getting into trouble"), he HAS to be assuming that Trent is her boyfriend. And he also has to be assuming that this could be serious ... that Trent might wind up as his son-in-law. For him to take any positive attitude towards Trent under these circumstances means that he must *really* like him ... see Trent as someone whom he can trust to be good to his daughter.
Trent also seems to approve of Jake, and Trent is not someone who gives his approval lightly. Sure, he wants to stay on the good side of Daria's dad, but he is willing to side with Jake against Helen (and he's gotta realize that Helen dominates that family). So it seeems likely that his approval is quite genuine.
Maybe Jake and Trent *are* basically kindred spirits. They're both idealists, and at least some of Jake's ranting, after all these years, probably stems from the frustration of his ideals. Girls usually fall in love with men who remind them of their fathers, and note Daria's advice to Trent in "Road Worriers". Daria isn't as pushy as her mother, but one could easily see her becoming the dominant partner in a marriage with Trent, over the long run, given Trent's easygoing nature.
It's worth thinking about ...
Jane appreciates and respects intelligence. Her extroversion is a very good influence on Daria, just as Daria's wisdom makes her a very good influence on Jane. Daria needs Jane to help her out of her shell; Jane needs Daria to keep her from getting into dangerous situations due to her impulsiveness.
I know what that's like. When you come out of an abusive family situation, your choices tend to be to either mirror the abusiveness or to reject it as an element of your own character.
Trent's family is more self-centered than truly abusive, IMHO, but extreme selfishness on the part of parents can be as damaging to parents as deliberate abuse. A neglected child can be very lonely indeed.
You could well be right about this. Daria acted jealous of Monique in "Piercings", but then again Daria's lack of certainity as to her status in Trent's eyes made her especially susceptible to that emotion. Note that "Piercings" is in a way Trent and Daria's "first date" ... there's nothing explicitly sexual (not even a kiss), but there's a lot of romantic tension ...
Trent, in that episode, is basically treating Daria like she's his girlfriend and everyone they meet is probably assuming that she is. This unaccustomed role clearly scares Daria ... but she also likes it ... note her blissful daze when he holds her hand.
This is only the most obviously romantic of several things he does that episode which makes it difficult for me to believe that he sees her as merely a "little kid". Note that his cajoling her to get pierced with a ring is a way of symbolically "marking" her as his own.
There's a strong metaphor of a loss of virginity in this episode, and the fact that the hole closes up helps allow Daria to treat it like it was all a dream, returning her to her former distance from Trent. And he from her.
I think Trent actually has a very strong conscience, though he downplays it because it's not "cool" to be preachy. He's preachy in his lyrics, though.
Hee hee ... I'd *love* to see that. Of course both of them would protest when they realized what Jane had arranged ... but I doubt that either of them would really mind. They clearly like each other's company (which is incidentally *another* important criteria for lasting love).
As for Trent's prior relationships with women ... I would think he's had a girlfriend or so at some point in his life, just based on the probabilities. Whoever they were, they either made no impression on him or a profoundly negative one, because he doesn't talk about them or see them anymore, to the point where it's indeed possible that he's never had any girlfriends, based on what we see.
Some of his lyrics suggest that he has had girlfriends, and that they treated him badly. Given Trent's overall niceness, I could easily see a younger, more innocent Trent being taken advantage of by a manipulative girlfriend (which may explain his obvious aversion towards Quinn).
Nowadays, he probably just avoids girls who seem phony or sleazy. Which probably is the majority of the women he normally meets. Which in turn may explain his fascianation with Daria, whom he's actually said to her face is "different from other girls" (and which he must mean in a positive way or he'd be avoiding her rather than hanging out with her). Daria is honest and highly moral.
That's OK, you said enough by your agreeing. Thanks tons. I hope you get really high marks. You deserve 'em! :)
deena lissa off for the weekend so no replies till Monday
"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Agreeing is so much easier than disagreeing. If you disagree, you have to think of reasons, LOL. Mind you, that shouldn't be much of a problem for me because I have reasons for just about everything usually.... but so what, I'm lazy. :)
I don't think there's any way that's going to happen, unfortunately. :)
What's weird is my husband was just wondering this past week why Trent doesn't appear to return Daria's feelings. I really don't think the age difference is what holds him back. Daria and Trent appear to be the same age emotionally including their experience with relationships. There is definitely a mutual respect there as well. I think what holds things up is Trent is just a typical male. Daria could write I love you Trent in the sky, and he wouldn't notice she cares for him. I'm not so sure that he doesn't care for Daria, outside of a friendship type thing, but if he does, he doesn't know how to tell her. Daria definitely doesn't know how to say anything to him. So you don't really have an age difference thing going on so much as a mutual admiration society. Each likes the other so much that it doesn't occur to them that the other one would return their feelings.
I would agree that they will work it out through a strong friendship first, but that's the best type of relationship. However, I will have to say this, the minute they hook up Trent and Daria, for me, the show is over and out of ideas.
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Possibly. Though Daria *is* being rather obvious about it, and you'd think that Jane would have made the situation clear to her brother. Remember, Jane *wants* them to get together.
This could be the problem, true. Daria's shyness around Trent used to be paralytic; she's gotten to the point where she can talk to him with considerable ease, but not about how she feels towards him.
Trent seems to keep hinting to her that he likes her, but she isn't getting the message. And a lot of Daria's shyness-induced behavior could easily be taken as rejection.
doesn't occur to them that the other one would return their feelings.
They both have reason to assume this: Daria, because Trent's older than her and much cooler from a high schooler's perspective; Trent because by most adult standards Daria would be judged to have more potential than he does.
ideas.
I don't know about that, life doesn't really end when people get together. They could have a lot of fun exploring their relationship, not to mention doing stories involving the lives of other characters.
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:13:00 GMT, deena lissa wrote:
My reply contains a spolier...
I think the issue here isn't so much the age, but an institutional barrier. Daria is a minor and a high school student. Treant is a twenty-two (? or was that 21?) year old unemployed musician. Though this can be overcome by already knowing the parents (which appears to have happened by the time "Daria!" appears in the story), if there _isn't_ already a family connection, a relationship like that can cause some serious antagonism at the paternal level. (And unlike many, who will probably flame me for this, I _don't_ think that is unreasonable for parents to lay down the law with regard to this.) But, in this case, I think Helen knows Daria well enough to trust her judgement (or at least trush that that judgement will more likely be overly harsh, as opposed to moronically loose), and it looks like Jake (in "Daria!" gets along well enough with Treant.
Of corse, a strong friendship has none of these problems.
I know this is picky, but I can't restrain myself any longer... Why the 'a' in Trent?
(I have the feeling I'm walking into the reply "To make you ask". This has nothing to do with Tarvok, but my mom has pulled that one on me for years, and I'm conditioned to expect it...) :)
He's five years older than her, and his social life consists mostly of musical practice and performance.
I'd presume so. But if you notice, he never brings anyone around (the only example of anyone we've seen who *may* be an ex-girlfriend is Monique) which implies that he is not seriously involved with anyone at the present time.
It's already been established in the show that he has some sort of attrction towards Daria. This may not be a sexual attraction, but he definitely likes her and respects her opinion, despite her young age. What he admires her for is her intelligence and honesty. Which is exactly what she would want a man to admire her for.
Whether or not this attraction ever develops into romantic love is another question. But it is definitely there.
No, I'm 34, a New Yorker by birth, and rather extroverted. I've hung around with everyone from sf fans to druggies to environmentalists to suburbanites to clubbers to introverts to Christians to Jews to Muslims to out and out wackoes ... and I have absolutely *no* idea what amazing experiences you imagine Trent to have had in Lawndale's nightclubs which forever alienate him from mundane reality, including Daria. I suspect you don't really know what you're talking about either.
Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. I've seen a hell of a lot of strange things in my life, but nothing with the kind of consciousness-expanding, sanity-blasting effects that you are implying. I see weird stuff, I interact with weird people, and I remain me; I do not mutate into some bizarre Lovecraftian horror as a result of experiencing strangeness. And I have no problem relating to adults, teenagers, or children for that matter, as a result of such experience.
What you *seem* to be talking about (at my best guess) are illegal drugs and strange sexual practices. Well, ok, they exist, and Trent knows about them. Why do you imagine that this knowledge forever alienates him from Daria? She knows about this stuff too ... remember what her favorite TV show is?
There's no indication in the show, even by implication, that Trent does (hard) drugs or engages in strange sexual practices, nor is their any indication that he attaches special worth to those who do. There is, on the other hand, fairly ample indication that he attaches special worth to Daria, who in one episode states that she is neither sexually active nor a user of narcotics. And of course to his sister Jane, who is almost as clean-living. Whom he protects.
What evidence do we have of Trent's alleged vices? Well, he's a rock musician, he likes to wear rings in odd parts of his anatomy, he hangs out at McGrundy's and on Degas Street , and he sleeps a lot.
Hmmm. Everyone KNOWS about rock musicians, and everyone also KNOWS that guys who get pierced are, well, you KNOW!!! And there can be only ONE reason he sleeps so much, wink-wink nudge-nudge!
No, sorry, I don't know. I don't assume that somebody fits every characteristic of the stereotype for their occupation or appearance. In the course of a life of knowing some very unusual people, I have FREQUENTLY encountered non-stereotypical behavior, especially among the smarter people (like Trent).
When I see someone who behaves in ways that strongly imply that they do NOT fit a stereotype, I go with the evidence, I don't try to bash it over the head and crunch it up to fit in the pigeonholes. And Trent gives every indication of NOT being a corrupt individual.
You claim to have experienced life and you've never even seen *Scooby-Doo* or *Josie and the Pussycats*? Shame on you! ;)
She could avoid getting involved with Trent in any way, shape, or form. A fact that would be made really easy by Trent's desire to avoid getting involved with HER in any way, shape, or form. She could NOT "manipulate" Trent into doing or refraining to anything, save by hinting to him that it would help Daria or Jane ... and she doesn't understand Trent well enough to realize this.
No, you don't understand. Trent did the piercing thing because he LIKES Daria and wanted to share something with her. It was a GOOD thing between them.
Assuming that Trent was interested in Quinn for some reason (maybe he gets hit over the head with a cartoon anvil or has some mind-shattering club experience, or whatever), Quinn's refusal to play along would help him return to his senses and CEASE being interested in her. See?
But neither Trent nor his friends REQUIRE "a bit of manipulation". They're basically honest people, which is why they ARE Trent's friends. They respect Daria's forthright behavior; they would be merely annoyed by Quinn's attempts at manipulation. And if some of his friends DID respond, Trent would HATE Quinn for it.
Well, I was going to work my way through and comment on many of Jordan's points; but on reflection, my comments would have been repetitive: Well said sir!, well said, good point...
Thanks, Jordan, for a really insightful post. It was, to my view, the biggest collection in one post of common-sense, down-to-earth, well-supported, thoughtful commentary I've seen on the Trent/Daria issue.
All I really have to *add*, rather than applaud, is here:
"life
much
One of the most memorable points made by a former Fundamental Theology prof of mine, Peter Lawlor, may he rest in peace, was that just *having* experience doesn't guarantee anything. Canon Lawlor made a distinction between "raw experience" and "reflected experience." It's the latter that brings wisdom, and it explains why some people who've "experienced" a lot have learned next to nothing from their experience, or have simply been passively moulded by it; while others, who may be younger, have reached a greater maturity: being reflective people, they gain more, grow more, from whatever they experience.
And Daria certainly is, in my view at least, a reflective person.
On Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:11:54 -0000, "Martin Sylvester" wrote:
Agreed whole-heartedly, Padre. The only shame about Jordan's post is that it's likely to fall upon deaf ears (namely, Q's).
Martin (to send E-mail, remove the "nospam" from my E-mail address) ---- Quinn: "When they got nervous, they'd drink cocoa." Helen: "Now, sweetie, there's nothing to worry about." (door slams) "Looters!" ---- Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria! http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
On the contrary, I've been enjoying this entire exchange. I think the points made on both sides have been well taken and appropriately discussed with all due and reasonable courtesy.
I agree with most of what you (JBassior) say, but there are two points I beg to differ on.
This depends on the state they live in. There are some hints - nothing more than that, despite what shows up in several fanfics (including my own) - that Jane has had something going with Jesse in the past, which would incline one to think that it *is* legal in that state. But, given that neither seem the sort to worry about laws that seem pointless or petty to them, and the fact that its never spelled out if they'd had been together anyway (or if they had been, if it was particularly intimate), means that its inconclusive. Again, MTV has plenty of reason to leave certain details of location, etc. obscure, and depicting a relationship that may or may not be legal depending on the location isn't something they'll go out of there way to do.
In any case, age has little to do with things. She is intelligent, insightful, and well-informed - not at all naive, no matter what anyone says. She is well aware of the 'need' to compromise, and refuses to accept it. This is not innocence, its refusal to accept the world as it 'has to be'. Daria, is, in her own way, a revolutionary, a radical who wants to *change* things, not simply live with them. In fact, I'd say that she isn't cynical - her sarcasm come not from a lack of convictions or a denial of them, but from *strong* personal convictions that run counter to the assumptions of those around her. No matter what her physical age may be, SHE IS NOT A CHILD.
Which is the whole point of the series.
I resent this remark, personally, but I'll let it slide. It's the *assumed* state in this society, which is not the same thing at all.
Daria *did* specifically state that she was straight, no question, and there is no reason to think otherwise. Jane made a lame joke about pretending to be a lesbian to get an acting role, but then sort of danced around the issue (or so it seemed to me. The spot was really short).
It would be in character, IMAO, for Jane to be 'questioning' - that is, she's probably straight (she certainly seems interested in men, and is not *completely* inexperienced), but she isn't sure herself, and she may even feel pressured *not* to be straight because she's 'out there' and 'an artist' (yet another 'everybody knows...' of a very dangerous kind). This was the interpretation I used in a fanfic I wrote, in a subplot where Evan was spreading vicious rumors about the two of them (and, no, nothing happened between her and anyone else, tho' she cautiously mentions going on a date with another girl, at some point before meeting Daria, that led nowhere). Lotsa Teen Angst, and some Good Advice From A Trustworthy Relative of Daria's, but no sex.
And let's be honest here - in the end, these are *cartoon characters*. Does it really matter?
On Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:50:39 GMT, [email] (Schol-R-LEA) wrote:
It didn't seem that ambiguous to me... in fact, it was pretty cut and dried. Jane exclaims, "I'm a lesbian!" Daria says, "You are not." Jane then replies, "I know, but I want to be in a movie." Ergo, Jane is not a lesbian and isn't questioning it, except so far as to think how much faking it would take to land herself a movie deal. :-) (And this is in character, too, especially when you consider her behavior in "The Lost Girls.")
Exactly. As they say on MST3K, "It's just a TV show, I really should relax." :-)
Martin (to send E-mail, remove the "nospam" from my E-mail address) ---- Quinn: "When they got nervous, they'd drink cocoa." Helen: "Now, sweetie, there's nothing to worry about." (door slams) "Looters!" ---- Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria! http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
I haven't seen "The Lost Girls" yet, but I agree that it is - as I said, it was only one interpretation, and one that MTV wasn't going particularly likely to make anyway. I chose it for my fanfic mostly because I wanted to add a subplot and needed a reason to a) make Jane react in a particularly vindictive mannner, and B) have a Serious Talk between Jane and Amy (this part isn't finished yet, but those who've read the existing parts of the story could have seen it coming).
(As for the side note in 'Highland Reels', the situation was rather different. Re-read the part about who and what Lila is and decide for yourself if either Jane or Jesse had much control over the situation. In any case, I was in wierd state of mind when I wrote it, and much of it makes no sense to me, either.)
One could also point out that I have a personal stake in increasing the number of bisexual characters on TV, but that would be politically incorrect :-)
On the whole legality issue, regarding Daria,, I don't think it's that important anyway. People *never* pay any attention to that particular law if they genuinely care for each other anyway.
MTV may care, though, and as a result make the writers care. This could explain why the show was so vague about the whole Jesse-Jane thing (indeed, unrealistically vague, considering that Jane is Daria's best friend and she would tend to notice things like this).
It says something about just *how* vague when nobody can say for sure if Jane ever was involved with Jesse, and if so, if she still is!
I don't think she's "naive" in the sense of being ignorant or foolish. I think she's "naive" in the sense that her ideals are just beginning to be tested, and that she hasn't yet learned her own limits or capabilities.
A lot of her knowledge is so far theoretical; she hasn't tried it out on the testing ground of life. To a certain extent this makes her cocky, as it usually does with teenagers, though she expresses it differently than most teens do.
She's particularly inexperienced in love and sex, even more so than most 17 year old girls. She knows a lot *in theory* about such things, but that's different from in practice, and as we've seen in several episodes she's easily embarassed and emotionally overwhelmed in such situations.
She's not likely to do anything too stupid ... she is a very wise person. But we should keep in mind when analyzing her character that this aspect of life is very new to her.
I agree. And it's one of the things which makes her an admirable person. Where naivete kicks in is that Daria doesn't always realize which battles to fight and which to avoid; which of her ideals are of crucial importance and which may have to be compromised in a given situation to advance the others.
I think that as she gets older she'll learn when to ignore what evils cost too much to change, and focus her energies on the battles she can win and do some good by winning. I sincerely hope that she never *loses* her idealism ... if she ever did it would mean that she'd given up on life itself.
I completely agree with you there. Sarcasm is a weapon and cynicism armor in her life. She's actually a sincere idealist, and some of her thoughts and dreams show her to be virtually a romantic in some matters.
What she's probably afraid of (with good reason) is that most of her peers (and elders) wouldn't understand her real self if she revealed it. What she needs to learn is that she has to try to reveal it to *some* people in order to make friends.
What she truly does *not* realize is the degree to which many in her environment already admire her for who she really is. For example, observe the attitude of her mother, of Jodie, or even of Brittany. Not to mention Jane ... or Trent.
Exactly.
That's what I meant by "default". I didn't meant to imply that homosexuals or bisexuals were somehow dysfunctional due to their difference, simply that most people are heterosexual, so if you don't know someone's preferences in that regard you tend to assume heterosexuality.
Daria's definitely straight. Jane is actively heterosexual ... we don't know whether shes ever actually had sex (1) but she has frequently displayed attraction towards men. She *could* of course be bisexual, but she's never displayed any attraction towards women, and in fact expends a lot of effort trying to get the female you would *think* she would be attracted to if she were to any hooked up with her brother.
Heh-heh, if Jane ever became famous I could *easily* see her *deliberately* cultivating an *exceedingly* bizarre and decadent image (nothing as tame as mere bisexuality), to the point of making up utter tripe about her lifestyle (2) just to see if she could get the media to believe it. Which would probably amuse Daria to no end.
I may have read your fanfic, I remember I liked a story with that basic plot.
Well, not that much. Though of course to analyze them, like any other fictional characters, one has to suspend disbelief and assume their reality.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
(1) We know that she made out in a laundry room with a guy in one episode, but we have no idea how far they went before Daria found them.>It would be in character, IMAO, for Jane to be 'questioning' - that
In article , [email] (Schol-R-LEA) wrote: [Daria and Jane, straight, bi, or gay]
Long ago a far away newsgroup went ballistic on this very same issue re: Ren-n-Stimpy. IIRC the ng ended up going nova, and now is a non- radiating, un-noticed mass in the cosmos of usenet.
Moral? Some toys you don't want to play with.
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard shift gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.