Is Trent that oblivious?

Now watching the episodes in order and looking at how DARIA and Trent act towards and around each other, i'm curious, do you all think that Trent is really that oblivious? The scenes in "Pierce Me" made me wonder. What do others think?

DeVitoFreq asked:

I think Trent is very much aware how Daria feels towards him, and likes her tool, but is making a deliberate decision not to act upon it. I'm not entirely sure what his reason is, but basically it's probably one of these three:

1) Trent likes Daria, but not romantically, and he respects her too much to just use her for sex.

2) Trent does like Daria romantically, but he also likes her as a friend, and his previous experience with women has convinced him that if he gets involved with her they will wind up breaking up and he will both hurt her feelings AND lose her friendship.

3) Trent likes Daria romantically, but thinks he's not good enough for her. (Remember, Trent's perception of status is not the same as Daria's, and he probably sees a lot of potential in her and fears that he would only tie her down from achieving her destiny).

I really don't see any possibility that Trent doesn't like Daria, at least as a friend, because he goes out of his way to be with her in more than one episode. He obviously enjoys her company. And he clearly approves of her influence on his sister.

Three possible reasons why he might not consider getting involved with Daria at all:

1) Trent isn't attracted to her, because she's too young / too plain / whatever. Possibly, but for someone he isn't attracted to he sure is going out of his way to hang out with her, be nice to her, etc. And he seems to approve of everything about her but her fear of expressing herself socially (which he obviously tries to help her overcome).

2) Trent might be involved with somebody else, but if so neither Daria nor (more inexplicably) Jane have noticed this. Which is strange, because Jane lives with him and both girls are frequently in his company.

3) Trent might be gay. Long shot, but it's been suggested in a couple fanfics. Note that this WOULD explain why Trent has never had a single identified girlfriend in the whole run of the show (Monique was only POSSIBLY his ex-girlfriend). Though it's odd that Jane isn't aware of this ...

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

[email] (JBassior) wrote:

Hmm... The Daria Tool...

"New from SpamCo, the latest and greatest in Daria Tooling, the *NEW* and *IMPROVED* WitWrench(tm) for the finest and grossest adjustments of egos..."

wrote in message news:7hh3s0$r5$[email]...

It's a good job it was expressed that way round. ;:-)

<g>

There was a display ad, in a UK paper some years ago, for a Mole Grip (or a clone thereof) described as a "Self-locking Wench."

If Daria's a WitWrench, is Helen a WritWench?

Martin.

I could express it the * other * way, but then I might have to go to confession... :)

"Martin Sylvester" wrote:

<snip>

you know, where i come from, using "tool" in that reference is just a bit on the naughty side... so you can understand why i chuckled quite a bit when i saw that trent "likes her tool" ... considering that "tool" is referred to in the masculine, not the feminine... that'd be a shocker for trent! <g>

and in my college band, the large instruments were always referred to as "big tools." i don't know why. well, i guess i do-- since those of us who played the big tools always bragged about our big tools... never mind.

so, daria plays the tuba? what a shocker!

i gotta stop drinking tequila before i post to this NG. <g>

up too late, rich.

Brittany: Shut up, naked boy!

In article , [email] wrote:

The typo leaped out at me. Took quite a while to come up with something that wasn't evil, nasty, or dirty. I do have self control, I'm just out of practice.

Self control be damned! I thought she played the mouth organ.

I've always felt that Daria goes best with a nice red whine. ;)

I think it depends on who is writing it. Some of the episodes have him extremely perceptive, and some have him fairly oblivious. Now, this can be attributed to changeable moods (possibly based on availability of sleep and/or caffeine, from my experience) or by the fact that I think some of the writers put more effort into making the female characters perceptive than the males. I don't know if this some sort of feminist thing going on, but when Brittany becomes perceptive while Jake and Trent remain sketchily imbecilic in many cases.... ya gotta wonder.

Dagny- cynic, general loony

http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697

"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall

[email] (Eccles9697) wrote:

Thank you for saying something that's been bugging me for the last few months-- why *are* the guys so often portrayed in a negative light? Why is Brittany comsidered to be smarter than she is, yet Kevin is considered to be a Total Loss, when they're both dumber than a bag of sand??? Brittany may have stumbled upon a few right answers, but that's like playing cowchip bingo. The cow's gotta crap somewhere. Kevin's never had an opportunity to stumble upon a right answer-- he's never been given the kind of opportunitites that Brit's had. Same goes for Jake. And remember how Jesse turned out to be thick as a brick? Robert ("Bonehead"), dim as he may be, is at least polite, but he's still dim. Mack and Trent are two bright lights on a dark shore. (And don't tell me about Upchuck. He's still a creep IMO.)

As for Trent's varying levels of obliviousness, yesyesyesyesyes! It's all a matter of who's writing the episode. (Yeah, I know that Susie & Glenn wield ultimate control, but they probably don't micromanage the characters--- at least not the extent that the fans do. <g>)

rich.

Jake: The horror, the *horror* ...

Daria's basically a show about a bunch of female characters with the males in supporting roles. At one time tv shows and films etc were nearly always about male characters with the females being in the background, but now the situation's been reversed in many cases. I don't really mind this though as I'm much more interested in females than males anyhow...

That reminds me of Coupland's "Microserfs", where someone has a bunch of tshirts printed saying "IBM - dumb as a sack of hammers".

Mack is very much in Jodie's shadow though. We've learned something about her character (mainly in the Gifted episode), but Mack remains little more than a bunch of soundbites.

Upchuck is the archetypal shallow annoying creep, I don't think there's much more to him than what we see.

-Shez.

Shez wrote:

Well, I'd already used "dumber than a bag of hammers" in an earlier post, and I didn't want to repeat myself so quickly. When I heard this line uttered on MST3K about 8 years ago, I laughed for a good 5 minutes. Besides, hammers are useful. Kevin is not. <g>

As for Microserfs, well, the MS boys have got no room to rag on the IBM'ers... true, MWave was a dog, but we could list many a four-legged MS product... anyone remember "Bob?" <g>

rich.

Jake: I love camping! I love it! ... Has anybody seen my pants?

In article ,

the males. I

Brittany

in many

few

I disagree that the guys are portrayed in a negative light. If you consider the totality of television (well, U.S. television anyway) I'd estimate that Daria exhibits less misandry than most other TV shows especially considering that it has a female lead character. Right now male bashing is generally quite popular, even obligatory, but Daria seems to be able to easily distinguish between males who are idiots and males who are not, whom she sometimes admires. Jake is no idiot, he just has some problems to work out. He should be granted some respect since, after all, he's partly responsible for Daria's generic makeup. ("I hate generic makeup!") I refuse to accept that Helen is solely responsible for Daria's positive traits. I can see a bit of Jake in Daria. Trent is merely preoccupied. Now Kevin really is an idiot. I really don't know how he could play football, especially quarterback, with a brain like his. How does he remember the plays?

There is frequently some very clever satire about the male role presented in Daria. I think the "Manly" musical number in "DARIA!" is as good an discussion of the new role of men in modern society as any I've seen. As I've often said, Daria isn't just about high school.

I simply don't watch shows that portray males in a generally negative light. I enjoy watching Daria.

Robert Henry said:

I agree. Remember the POV; also remember that many annoying male habits look a lot more annoying from a female perspective (and vice versa, of course). To take one obvious example, Upchuck would be a much more sympathetic character from the viewpoint of another guy.

Daria's sarcasm is rarely gratiuitous.

Jake is responsible for Daria's idealism and passion. In him it comes out all twisted by his father's cruelty. Jake's apparent ineffectuality are partially the result of his refusal to crush people's spirit like his own father did. This is actually admirable.

By his music, for which he truly cares.

Agreed.

I suspect that (to Mack's exasparation) Kevin often doesn't.

Yes. Jake's point that in a time of crisis people need a hero, not a wimp, was accurate. Of course, being Jake, he then immediately crashed the car.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On Sat, 15 May 1999 18:50:50 +0100, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from Shez , and it said:

Huh huh huh... I'm interested in females... ;p

Still, I can't help but cheer when he get's those zingers of his out. He generally gets one for every episode he shows up in (I can't think of one where he didn't... shall we go through the episodes?) I like it, because it is one of the few times a male isn't portrayed as a bumbling imbicille (even Treant is borderline, though I'm convinced his obliviousness is manufactured, as is mine, usually). That's the saddest part about the Daria universe. They hardly need Ms. Barch's help to look stupid.

Shallow? Yes. Annoying? Yes. Creep? Most definately. But he's _not_ stupid. As Daria said in "Gifted," it is possible for a person to be intellectually gifted and morally barran (I think that's how she put it).

	As far as the males lack of hidden gifts, I think the fact
that the camera largely follows the females is what keeps us from
seeing their good side.
	 Take Kevin, for instance. He's dumber than a brick, and
confused about just about everything. The only thing he does well,
from what we've heard (not even seen) is QB. But remember during
"DTAH", when he's talking to Brit about how he "motivated" the team?
Now, I know it didn't look great from that POV, but remember, speaking
isn't one of Kevin's gifts. But perhaps someone else, like Mack, or
Joey, Jeffy, or Jamie, might be able to tell it better. Who knows?
Maybe Kevin his this absolutely oblivious ability to inspire his
fellow men to perform well on the field (though he has absolutely no
idea how he does it). Mack is the captain, for obvious reasons (Mack:
"It's on the third page of the playbook." Kevin: "Really?"), but Kevin
might also have some ability that doesn't show well, given the focus
of the show.

Now... how's _that_ for streatching an analysys? ;p

Hey Fellow Darians...it's good to see that so many people define with Daria as much as I do! Every time I watch the show, I am constantly reminded of my own high school experience. Every character on there has an amazingly similar parallel in my yearbook. The dumb jock and the twit cheerleader, the weird goth girl, the sleazy male pig, the stuck up fashion conscious skanks, and the smart outcast who wears glasses (i.e. me), although I didn't meet my Jane until after high school. And I am with her older brother...hee hee. Maybe Daria DOES stand a chance with Trent after all... Jess "Morgendorfer"

Scene from "Clerks" (Dante and Randall are talking about Dante's ex-girlfriend) Dante: In the middle of it, she called me Brad. Randall: That's nothin' man, people say crazy stuff during sex. One time I called this girl "Mom".

JMStargazr wrote in message news:[email]...

Daria as

own

weird

and the

until

Daria

I

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Gee, thanks...I always wanted to be compared to a slimy, scaly, and smelly aquatic dinner course. Am I dolphin-safe, too? Jess "Morgendorfer"

Scene from "Clerks" (Dante and Randall are talking about Dante's ex-girlfriend) Dante: In the middle of it, she called me Brad. Randall: That's nothin' man, people say crazy stuff during sex. One time I called this girl "Mom".

JMStargazr wrote in message news:[email]...

Well, working and living in a fishing town, I can't let that pass!

*Fresh* fish is what Kyle chanted. Scrumptious, tasty, flaky, melt-in-the-mouth, tender aquatic dinner course. <bg>

Welcome to atd, Jess!

Martin.

<vomit> I could never stand fish, even before I was a vegetarian. :P

Yeah, welcome, or whatever. I hope you haven't been lurking or anything, because you'd probably think I'm totally insane. I'm not insane. Honestly. I'm not. Really.

endless, nameless wrote in message news:[email]...

smelly

If I eat anything that's even been cooked in the same pan as fish, I swell up and die. Simple as that.

Kyle of writes:

Fish are such bad mannered things too. Not only do they go around all bulgy-eyed with their mouths open, but they use *our* oceans as their toilet!

-Shez.

Dammit, Alli, how can you dissappoint us like that? Not insane? I feel deceived. I like insane people :)

Dagny- cynic, general loony

http://urbanspacemen.arecool.net

"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall

I was trying to convince myself. And failing. Never mind.

JMStargazr wrote in message news:[email]...

I aims to please.

I hope not. That stuff's for pinko lefties and tree humping hippies

I

"Kyle" wrote:

that's tree- *huggin'*--- tree-humpers are some other breed of critter. (splinters-- ouch!) ;-)

gotta make sure the disparaging comments are properly slotted. <g>

rich.

Quinn: People are so weird!

Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.

ROFL! I knew I'd find kindred spirits here! Jess "Morgendorfer"

Scene from "Clerks" (Dante and Randall are talking about Dante's ex-girlfriend) Dante: In the middle of it, she called me Brad. Randall: That's nothin' man, people say crazy stuff during sex. One time I called this girl "Mom".

[email] (JMStargazr) wrote:

oh, just wait till we start discussing weird stuff. <vbg> as a group, we will always strive to remain on-topic just as soon as we can adequately define what 'on-topic' means. <g> i believe we've discussed everything from Gun Control, to the Death Penalty, to Ancient Chinese Poisoning Techniques, to Poetry (there were Haiku and Limerick threads, as well as a Pun War or two), to Favorite Books, Newsgroups, and TV Shows, and, well, you name it. all that with minimal flaming. (thank GOD.) <g>

rich.

Jane: Usually when I have this dream I'm wearing pink taffeta.

paperpusher wrote in message news:[email]...

For the record, he's quite serious. He's not making this stuff up, we've discussed every single one of these topics, you can check it out on the dejanews archives.

paperpusher wrote in message news:[email]...

smelly

Regardless of the original, I said it exactly the way I meant it.

deceitful.

On the mountaintop, [email] spake thusly:

I probably shouldn't say this, but I've actually witnessed this activity. <boring rambling story> My father and I were kayaking down the Kickapoo river, and we come around a bend and there's these two really... um, healthy-looking women getting a little happy with logs. No boat of any kind in sight, nor beach nor highway anywhere near. Apparently they were *really* excited, because they didn't notice the 36-year-old man and his 10-year-old daughter paddling by, trying very very hard not to gawk. </boring rambling story>

-Mindy "My algebra teacher is a stupid bi**h! She shows it every day..."

In article ,

Trent act

Trent is

do others

Yes. I think Trent could very well be that oblivious. (In fact you know he's oblivious because Jane said so.) Daria hasn't really done anything overt that might tip him off. There are only subtle cues that any reasonable guy would have to examine carefully before acting. That suddenly quiet manner, the tongue-tied stammer, the blush, that could be an attraction or it could be something else. Which is it? Guess wrong and you might be looking at an accusation of sexual harassment or worse.

Further, those cues would only be obvious to someone who was looking for them. Trent probably isn't expecting interest from Daria so he probably isn't looking too closely to look for evidence of attraction. We, the audience, see the cues because the writers make it quite obvious. I suspect that most of the time guys simply don't notice. If a woman wants attention from a guy she's going to have to be a lot more assertive than Daria is being.

Finally, Trent is an artist. Who knows where he'll be in 5 years? He has no time for relationships. Eyes on the prize, man, eyes on the prize. If he entered into a relationship with Daria he really wouldn't have time to spare to give her the attention she deserves. Between playing gigs, 10-hour practice sessions, and sleep, when could he spend any time with Daria?

Robert K. Henry said:

Possibly.

Well, Jane may underestimate him. In particular, Trent wouldn't want to get into a discussion with Jane over whether he should declare his love for Daria, when he probably knows full well that Jane has been doing everything possible to bring them together, ESPECIALLY if he has his own doubts about the wisdom of such a relationship.

I think that by now (he's known Daria over a year) Trent has figured out how Daria feels. However, there are several possible (good) reasons why Trent wouldn't want to act upon it.

Again, by now he probably notices. But ...

Exactly. And it is precisely BECAUSE he genuinely likes and respects Daria that he would not start something with her that he could not stay faithful to, torn away by his other mistress (his music). I think that, under the whole "grunge" image, Trent has the soul of a classic gentleman.

And if he succeeded, he might have to go to another city or tour the country. While Daria was going to college. Trent's probably thought of these things.

Furthermore, it may not be obvious to us (looking at things from Daria's high school perspective) just how impressive Daria probably looks to Trent. She's younger than him, but both smarter and wiser (the last rare at her age), and she clearly has great potential. Trent may very well believe that he's not good enough for Daria, and that to take advantage of her current loneliness and vulnerability would be a foul thing to do.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

[email] (JBassior) wrote:

Unless, of course, he's clueless. In which case none of this has *ever* crossed his mind.

Or he's just plain clueless, and sees Daria as his little sister's friend, and nothing more. If I had a little sister like Jane, I don't think it'd be cool to date her friends-- it infringes upon the boundaries of my relationship with her, and shows a lack of respect for her feelings. (E.g., if my sister had tried to date one of my friends in school, I would *not* have been thrilled. It'd strain my relationship with her, and with my friend.) Naturally, YMMV.

You are soooo right. Most men are completely clueless in terms of subtle hints. The hints Daria's been sending are about as subtle as you can get, and someone as self-absorbed as Trent is wouldn't be paying too much attention to her signals. Let's face it-- he's worried more about his lack of progress as a musician than he's worried about his romantic life. That's how most men are-- we define ourselves by what we do. Most women define themselves by their relationships towards others. (At least that's what they taught me in the Women's Studies class I had to take in college.)

... he may just be clueless. <g>

Well, I'll agree that that might be the case. But I prefer Occam's Razor in this case.

Is this the 9,512th or 9,513th time we've beaten this topic to death? <g> rich.

"This is Precious Roy, and I just ate a handful of honeybees!" -- Precious Roy.

In article , [email] wrote:

to get

for Daria,

possible

the wisdom of

could

harassment or

out how

Trent

Dating his sister's friend...kind of reminds me of the ending of Booth Tarkington's "Seventeen" in which the main character is being bugged by his girlfriend's annoying little sister. After another incident in which the little sister was teasing the young lovers the story ends with the line (as best as I remember) "...but his future wife was gone." implying that eventually he would end up marrying this annoying, childish baby sister of his would-be girlfriend. That may not be a tattoo out of a magazine but I think it's very deep--and meaningful. We never know where we're going to find true love. It can appear in the damnedest places, maybe even your kid sister's best friend.

Bob

On 14 May 1999 03:51:28 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (DeVitoFreq), and it said:

He probably knows. But, he's what, 22? She's 16. She's also his little sisters best friend. Now, I know that there many on the group that say, "So what?" But can we not agree that, at the very least, there would be a slight bit of wierdness. Not to mention that the vast majority of sixteen-year-old girls aren't really ready for the sort of long term relationship a twenty-two year old is probably looking for (even, perhaps especially, the really cool ones, like Daria). My bet would be that Treant, if he is considering the "possibilities," probably figures he has plenty of time to wait; she _is_ his sister's best friend, and she'll be around for at least two more years.

Oblivious? Treant seems, to me, like the sort that has mastered the concept of "selective ignorance." But that's probably just me seeing myself in his position. ;) He's probably more intuitive than even he knows.

Tarvok said:

Actually, they were 21 and 16 when they first met, now they are 22 and 17. Five year age difference.

This might actually be a plus. Daria is someone who Trent knows will keep Jane out of trouble. A big load off his mind.

Actually, that's not a very big age gap, especially at their ages (it would have been a more serious problem if they'd met, a few years back, say when Trent was 18 and Daria 13, or something like that). As people have pointed out to me already, Daria would already be "legal" in most states, and in less than a year she'll have attained her age of majority, and have become a full legal adult.

Trent and Daria are both nonconformists ... I don't think the age gap is really the major problem.

One of the BIGGEST reasons why Daria probably has avoided dating high school guys is that she's noticed that most high school "loves" are exceedingly shallow and unstable, and she IS the sort of girl who wouldn't be happy with anything BUT a "long term relationship". Note that she is a very private person; opening up to a man enough to allow any sort of physical intimacy (even well short of intercourse) would be a major act of trust on her part, and she knows herself quite well.

This is, in fact, probably one reason why Daria's original crush on Trent has survived, and deepened towards love. She LIKES the fact that Trent is more mature than the guys in her school; as she's come to know him better and better she probably realizes that he's not the sort of guy to treat a relationship like a game, or to be callous of her own feelings. Her main problems now are her own shyness, and Trent's obvious unwillingness to make the first move towards a romantic relationship.

Part of Daria's problem is that Trent probably values her friendship and is afraid to possibly spoil it by making a move on her.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On 15 May 1999 01:56:43 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (JBassior), and it said:

Eh, I guess I'm just cynical. I knew a lot of girls in high school that seemed to be the long term sort, that seemed to have their heads bolted squarely on their shoulders. The only ones that didn't ultimately disappoint me (by hurting either myself or a close friend of mine) were the ones that just plain didn't get involved with anyone romantically. Combine that with the fact that, while there was a girl I thought I could've married given the chance, but I know _well_ now that there is no way I was ready for a long term relationship (my senior year proved that) at the time, and probably still aren't, well, you do the math, given my parameters, and see if you come up with the same conclusion.

Not really a problem, in my book. IME (In My Experience; is this a tried and true Usenet acronym?), when that situation occurs, he is doomed to end up expressing his fealings for her, and her returning those feelings, however hard he tries not to "mess up the friendship." It's actually quite fun once you've given up trying to resist... :) If he has any previous experience in this area, he probably already knows this, and is just waiting for the inevitable, and happy, moment. :)

Tarvok said:

Daria's not the sort to (intentionally) hurt someone she cares for. The way I *could* see her hurting Trent is if they became involved and she ultimately broke up with him over complete disappointment at his unwillingness to try to succeed. But Trent *does* try to succeed at his music, which is what he values most in life; and Daria (so far) has been supportive of this quest.

Indeed. I didn't say that Trent was choosing the best strategy :)

But, see, I don't think that he HAS had "any previous experience in this area". I think that he's never met any girl whom he liked as much (as a friend) as he does Daria. He pretty much says so in "Road Worriers" and "Pierce Me"; Daria understands the implications of what he is saying but denies them to herself.

I think Trent's had *sexual* experience, but that's a different thing. It's likely that before this Trent has been involved only with girls who were attracted to him primarily for his pose, his look, and (to an extent) his basic decency. He probably had purely sexual (or at most romantic) relationships with them, but never saw them as also being "soul mates" or even "best friends".

Daria understands him; he values her advice; and the combination of this with what may be nascent romantic feelings towards her confuses and to some extent probably scares him.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan