Sarra - J17 - thanks!

It's fab! I'm stealing the generation four-handed years in the future line for my mail-sig :) Too short, of course, but still :)

I'm glad that you're glad. My favourite bit was Trent writing a song - for me. I had to put "You're my muse you know" on my sound plug-type thing after that.

Sarra

"Teen Reporter, getting into my head, if it weren't for you, I would still be in bed." Sigh...

Dear Sarra,

Thanks very much for the copy of J17. That was very nice of you. The Daria interview was very funny (especially Trent's response to the "Would you date a high school girl" question). The quality of the magazine overall was excellent; much better than *Seventeen*. I guess British teens must be more literate or something.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"All the Universe or Nothingness ... that is the question. Which shall it be?" (H. G. Wells)

In article ,

Daria

you date a

excellent;

literate or

I like to think that our readers are fairly literate but, quite frankly, I have my doubts sometimes. Especially when I get letters with appalling spelling and grammar from rabid Backstreet Boy fans. I wish we had readers like old skool Sassy had readers but then I also wish I was Holly Golightly...

Anyway I digress. I'm chuffed that you liked the piece but don't you think that Trent is a real user?!

Sarra said:

I dunno ... I suspect that neither he nor the girls he goes out with take each other or their relationships very seriously. I think that the reason he doesn't want to go out with Daria is precisely because he likes and respects her a lot (as he says), knows that *she* would take something like this *very* seriously, and wouldn't want to hurt her. I also think that part of it is that he thinks Daria's too good for him. He pretty much says that in the interview.

I think that if Trent got his act together, and really respected himself, he'd probably be in love with her.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"All the Universe or Nothingness ... that is the question. Which shall it be?" (H. G. Wells)

I don't think it's that, it's just the age difference is putting him off, like he says in ... no wait, that's a spoiler... Anyway, I've experienced the same thing, when I was at school I got to know this girl who was 15 and I was 18 and it took me a whole year to actually admit to myself that I wanted to go out with her. In Trent's case the age difference is even greater, so I can quite understand his ambivalence. At that age a few years age difference seems like a huge gulf, your friends tend to laugh at you if you hang out with anyone more than a couple of years younger than yourself.

-Shez.

Aaaaaaaaack! Nothing wrong with going out with someone older. My sweety is 7 years older than me. Hell, my ex-fiance was 12 years older than me. Older men are great. They know what they're doing. <evil grin and knowing wink>

Jess "Morgendorfer"

Daria: Do you believe everything adults tell you? Gupty Kids: Yes Daria: What if 2 adults tell you totally opposite things?

Jess said:

I mostly agree. There can be a maturity gap, but this can work both ways ... in the case of Trent and Daria, I actually think that Daria is the more emotionally mature one in some ways (Trent in others).

There can be strains on a love when the people have a wide age gap, though, especially when one of them is a teenager. I note that by definition your relationship with your "ex" fiancee didn't work out, though I have no idea if the age thing was one of your problems.

I certainly agree, though, that there is nothing morally wrong with a relationship between two people, both of whom are emotionally mature enough to love. (IMHO chronological age isn't the main issue here; I know one 15 year old who I believe perfectly capable of a mature love, and I've known plenty of full adults who weren't). I do think, from all the evidence shown on the show, that Daria's capable of real love.

I know that Trent uses the age factor to exclude Daria from consideration as a girlfriend, but I really think that his own self-doubt is more of a factor. I think that it's significant that when asked about "high school girls" in that interview, his first reaction was to think of Daria, and give the reason that he respects her too much to want her to go out with him. That says something about what he thinks of HIMSELF. And on the show I've frequently noticed Trent being rather self-depreciating, or even contemptuous, of himself.

If you look at it from Trent's perspective, Daria is a seriously admirable young woman, who looks like she will have a bright future, once she graduates high school. She's almost frighteningly intelligent, strongly driven, and possessed of great wisdom and moral integrity. Trent, on the other hand, is well aware that he may never fulfill any of his own potential, and may suspect that the chief problem if he ever got seriously involved with her would be Daria's disappointment if he failed to succeed.

Asking HIMSELF the question "what if Daria were older", Trent may suspect that the answer is "If she were older she certainly wouldn't have time for a loser like me." Trent's not stupid ... it must have occurred to him at some point that, in the wider world of college, Daria is very likely to meet a male soulmate, someone matching her own intelligence and drive, someone whom she could be truly happy with.

Trent probably knows that he could seduce Daria very easily ... because she's vulnerable, a shy and inexperienced girl, and he's the first man to have noticed her good qualities. And he definitely finds her attractive in many ways. But in my opinion, Trent's too much of a good guy to *want* to take advantage of her like that, especially when he knows that Daria, with her intense loyalty, would probably stick with him well past the point when most girls would give up on him.

He doesn't want to use Daria's own virtues against her, and this, I think, makes Trent more admirable than perhaps he realizes himself.

As for Sarra's point about Trent's relationships with other girls ... I don't think he's a "user", I think that his sexual, even romantic relationships have all been pretty casual ones. I think that he deliberately gets involved with girls whom he knows don't have much real depth to them, because he is too good a guy to want to really hurt anyone. This may make him a bit sleazy, but in the nicest possible way.

I think that one of the reasons why he DOES like Daria is that she's very different from the girls he usually hangs out with. The fact that he chooses her to discuss serious life issues with tells you something about his true estimation of her, young as she is.

Note, incidentally, his fantasy of being a rock star and dating models. This would be gaining status and then using it to get sexual favors from shallow women who would only like him because of his status.

Women who were pretty much the exact opposite of Daria. But note that Trent's fantasy is not so much "romantic" as purely sexual ... there's no indication in anything he said, nor the way he said it, that he would really CARE for these women ... only that it would be expected of him and be one of the perks of success in his chosen field.

Most *wise* high-status men, incidentally, would prefer someone like Daria to the cliche "model" type. Because with a shallow status-seeker, they could never be sure if they were being loved for themselves rather than WHAT they were; Daria, on the other hand, would never give herself to anyone she did not love for WHO he was.

I like Trent. I would probably be his friend if he were real and I knew hmi. I just think that HE, even more than Daria, is the one who has some growing up to do.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"All the Universe or Nothingness ... that is the question. Which shall it be?" (H. G. Wells)

I don't

relationships have

involved with

too good

but in the

When I said he was a user it was actually in reference to that statement about how most guys wouldn't want to shell out $15 for movie tickets and I'd just seen Lane Miserables where Trent manages to score dinner chez Morgendorffer (hope that didn't spoil anything for anyone.) It was a pretty lighthearted remark pointing out Trent's opportunistic streak.

Trent obviously cares for and respects Daria (on July 7 all will be revealed in It Happened One Nut), but you don't necessarily want to date someone you respect. Besides, I can't think of anything worse than actually going out with someone that you've been crushing on for months. Whenever I've done it, I've realised that the person I've been fantasising about for ages actually has their own thoughts and beliefs that are nothing to do with the ones I've already attributed to them in my head. It leads to a lot of confusion. I think my dad was right when he told me that if I ever got married I should make sure that I loved the lucky man a little less than he loved me because otherwise he'd make my life miserable. Of course, I then said that I was never going to get married so could I have the money now please? But generally I ignore my dad's advice because it's mostly about getting my hot water boiler serviced annually rather than when it decides to blow up.

But I dig

[email] writes:

Yes, I thought he was very tactful about the nutty situation. I thought Kevin's stupidity was a bit overplayed though, I mean the way he's portrayed sometimes it's a wonder he can even dress himself. Also what was it with Tiffany? Either she'd lost her contact lenses or she's barely literate.

-Shez.

Sarra said:

You do if you are looking for a serious love relationship. You don't if you're just looking to have fun, "no regrets". I think Trent is currently looking for the latter kind of affair, and finding it. Which is why he "respects Daria too much" to date her.

Depends on the kind of crush. "Love from afar" is one thing ... that's usually disappointing. When you know the person well already, as a friend, that's a different matter. The best and stablest love usually springs from friendship.

Hmm, but Trent actually DOES tell his "thoughts and beliefs" to Daria. He's done so in virtually every prolonged scene they've had together.

Though I do believe that Trent is careful what side of himself he shows to Daria, precisely because he does respect her (maybe more than he respects himself, in some ways). He wouldn't want to lose her approval.

I think the real issue here is maturity, and I think it cuts the other way than one would believe from simply looking at Trent and Daria's age. I think that Daria is actually, in all the important ways, *more* mature than Trent. And that if they were to have a relationship, unless Trent matured, it would end disastrously because Daria would not be able to put up with his irresponsibility forever, and even if she didn't break it off would wind up nagging him to the point that he would break it off with her.

Either result would I think be extremely painful for both of them, and especially Daria. Which I think Trent senses to some extent, which is why he doesn't attempt to become involved with her romantically.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"All the Universe or Nothingness ... that is the question. Which shall it be?" (H. G. Wells)

Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message news:[email]...

than

that

And

end

up

 |
\ /
 V

30

20

10

In Daria's "Imagine it like it will be" fantasy in LM, she's not nagging the beer-bellied, hairy, couch-dwelling (but still likeable) Trent at all. Quite the opposite: she's affirming him, willing to work double shifts at the gene splicing lab to support him as he follows his dream. She does imagine him making the decision to get the tattoos removed and get a job, so I think Jordan is right in saying she wouldn't put up with it forever.

Of course, when she's stirred from her reverie by the doorbell, she then says, "I think I just got over something." Perhaps because she's assessed the chances of Trent taking his eyes off the prize long enough to get a job? <shrug>

Martin.

In article ,

admirable

graduates

and

hand, is

may suspect

would be

"frighteningly intelligent"? That seems a curiously incongruous phrase. Intelligence? Frightening? How could that be? Are people really intimidated by those with higher than average intelligence? (Whatever that really means.) I wouldn't expect fear to be a reaction. If so then that's too, too bad. Fear leads to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

"The dark side? Are we talking about The Force?"

Bob Henry said:

Yes. They are.

Daria DEFINITELY intimidates phonies. I said "almost frighteningly intelligent" cause Trent isn't the world's biggest phoney, but you notice that he rarely puts on an act with her, and that's probably because he doesn't want her puncturing his balloon.

No kidding. Why else do you think that Daria, and people like her, are rarely the world's most popular?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"All the Universe or Nothingness ... that is the question. Which shall it be?" (H. G. Wells)

In article ,

intelligent"

rarely

her

I wouldn't attribute Trent's deference to Daria as fear. It could just as easily be respect. Respect wouldn't be the same as fear in someone as unaffected as Trent. Trent presents a fairly honest front and he's fairly honest with himself and Daria has no weapons to use against such an individual. Any sarcastic barbs she might launch would be ineffective against someone who can already acknowledge his own shortcomings, at least to himself. Trent really has nothing to fear from Daria. The only possible reaction Trent could have would be respect. Case in point: "Road Worrier" in which Trent bares his soul to this high-schooler, admitting that he has no money, no job, and maybe a rather bleak future. Trent didn't make those admissions out of fear, though he didn't need to as Daria had already figured it out. I think he actually respects Daria, as a person. When you can meet and talk with people you can actually respect...it's just...magical!(That's one reason I enjoy this news group so much. So many respectable people.)

Hate

are rarely

Seriously. I'd often wondered about this and whether it might have been at least partially responsible for my own miserable existence in high school but I'd always rejected the notion out of hand as hubris. But in light of all the evidence there just doesn't seem to be any other conclusion. I could have tolerated simply being unpopular, I more or less prefer a solitary life anyway, but I could have done without the violence and hazing. So I just tried to, as I referred to it at the time, maintain a "low profile." Of course it's difficult to excel while maintaining a low profile�so I didn't�but the nit-wits sought me out for torment anyway. The realization that they might possibly have been acting out of fear makes it possible for me to forgive them�only for my own peace of mind. It's still a difficult idea to accept though. It just doesn't seem plausible. How could anyone fear someone as inoffensive as I? (I sometimes do cause offense but it's almost always unintentional.)

Bob Henry said:

It is. My point was that PHONY people would be, and in the show often are, afraid of her honesty.

Trent isn't particularly phony. I agree with you. That's why he's drawn to her honesty instead of being repelled by it.

Yes. I don't think Trent's ever met any girl he respects as much. Which is why I think the main reason he doesn't go after her is that he's afraid of hurting HER.

I agree.

In article , [email] (JMStargazr) wrote:

Older men

Well, I've been married for almost 12 years to someone 11 years older than me...it can work.

--.\\<-H--

I got you beat there, my boyfriend's 13 years older than me. That probably is a bit old. But it takes some men that much longer to mature. ;)

On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:55:20 +0100, "endless, nameless" wrote:

13 years, Alli? Aren't you 16? That's not really a good idea.

But I've noticed most of the defending posts involve older men, which is more socially acceptable than older women.

The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

tell me about it. my girlfriend has you beat, Alli. : p --- ~Po

CROWDSURFERS WILL BE EJECTED FROM THE BUILDING. It can be harmful, and most of all disrespectful to climb on other people's heads. Crowdsurfing should only be done naked and in the privacy of your own home.

Thank you The Beastie Boys

You want a cookie or something? ;)

How old is your girlfriend then? :)

Kyle said:

16 *is* legal in the UK. Whether it's a good idea or not is another matter entirely.

-Shez.

Shez said:

Didn't know that. It's not legal in most American states. But if it IS legal AND they love each other, what exactly is the problem? Would it be better for Alli to be with someone she doesn't love simply because the ages match better, rather than with an older man she does love?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"All the Universe or Nothingness ... that is the question. Which shall it be?" (H. G. Wells)

On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:29:58 +0100, Shez wrote:

My girlfriend turned 18 last monday, and I turn 18 January of 2000. And if I hear one more "older woman" or "statuatory rape" joke, I'm gonna start wearing a trench coat.

The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

On 18 Jun 1999 21:51:53 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (Jordan S. Bassior), and it said:

ATTN: This is a message from the Department of Warning People About Incredibly Long Threads. Take shelter; this one should last at least a month. ;)

On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:05:57 GMT, [email] (Tarvok) wrote:

In the interests of the NG, I refuse to post in this thread.

The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

Check uk.tv.misc (I think, It's the one Shez lives in) - there's a thread called BBC Ireland Bitch Slagged our Flag - About 250 posts long :)

Alt.music.nirvana had this enormous thread around new year time entitled "Igor Bratic"... it was Bratic himself, arguing with me, Melora and Vote Your Uterus, who were insulting him... funny lol, the thread must have had a total of posts somewhere in the thousands.... it wasn't the only Igor-hate related thread at the time either, there was at least 3. Poor guy, he isn't deserving of *quite* that much negative attention... ;) oh well. ;)

In article , "endless, nameless" wrote:

About

least a

thread

In rec.games.frp.misc, there's a thread called "Evil Gods", which started off asking what kind of world would an evil god would create, devolved into atheists vs theists, and is currently marxists vs capitalists. It's spawned a few sub-threads (though Deja treats it all as one thread). It's 3100+ posts and still growing.

Gah! *gurgle* Don't tell me you read them all? :) Mmmm... Vote your Uterus... cool name :)

J17 is one of the better teen magazines, imo. There's a lot of really terrible ones, which is kinda ironic because some of them are aimed at such stupid girls that most of their target "audience" must be too stupid to be able to read anyhow. I guess that makes little difference, though.

People actually READ teen magazines? Woah, learn something new every day... I thought they just looked at the pretty pictures... reading would be too much like, y'know, work or something...

I never know about you guys... first someone that actually reads Playboy, now this?

Dagny- cynic, general loony

http://urbanspacemen.arecool.net

"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall

[email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:

To quote Bill Hicks, "Looks like we got us a READER!" ;-)

Although I guess readerS would be more accurate. I wonder what that says about this group?

rich.

Quinn: I can't be a brain! My friends will hate me!

The whole mag was quite fun actually. It's also this great morale booster for someone like me: all these questionaires saying: "Can your crush count to ten without moving his lips? Can you see any of his of his face between his spots?" I start thinking : "Yay! I do have a chance!" :) Some of it's quite surreal, like the bit about needing an English A-Level to be a farmer....