A good number of English teachers are probably failed writers. Forever having to teach novels that couldn't hold a candle to what they're writing... :)
Yeah, makes you wonder about those comments like "Your cousin spends a lot of time at your house." Were the FC junior members goading Quinn, or had they not clued in at this point? Or is it time to invoke the last verse of the Mystery Science Theater theme song?
I think it's settled into Cold War, maybe even a cautious detente. They're not going to do each other favors, and they're going to stick the boot (or spiked heel) in if the other needs some ego-deflation, but they're not going to actively sabotage each other, in any obvious ways at least.
What struck me is that it seems more like a game now. They're losing their insecurities now, and gradually shedding their high-school personas. Quinn's not afraid to look like a brain, and Daria's come down from her garret to live in the world.
Someone on the NG made a comment that they're fundamentally alike despite their different personal styles. (Meaning it as an insult, as I recall.) Perhaps they've both realized the similarities.
Yeah. Even after the spoilers I read before this ep aired on the West Coast, this is the thread that I keep thinking about. I mean, she did a better job than most of the regular teachers (and certainly better than Senile Lady or the Humbert-Humbert-wannabe).
Mr. O'Neill fails in so many ways, but mainly because he thinks feel-good crap substitutes for confidence-building and actual knowlege. It makes *him* feel good, but doesn't do a damn thing for those under his "care" ... except when his blunders do things *to* his students.
Ms. Barch is too busy fighting her own ideological and emotional demons to recognize her students except as players in her own drama.
Ms. Li ... do I need to explain?
Mr. DeMartino, I'm convinced, is a frustrated idealist. Maybe he even started like O'Neill, filled with good will and convinced he had something to say. Unlike O'Neill, he quickly realized that no one was listening, and hence became the bitter apoplectic we know today. Even the last scene, where his rekindled idealism was snuffed out by the vacuum in Kevin's skull (pretend you didn't read that metaphor), indicates he expects the impossible.
Daria's great insight, in a continuation of IIFY, is that you can't reach all the students, and probably won't reach any of the students ... but she keeps trying on the off chance that someone might pay attention for just a moment. Joey-Jeffy-or-Jamie at least read the book, albeit with his own weird interpretation; Quinn finally started thinking like Quinn Morgendorfer instead of Member of Fashion Club (Two of Four?).
Even Daria's test was very Daria-esque: not fill-in-the-blanks, but "what do you think", no right answers, and points just for thinking at all. If Ms. Li were an actual principal she's hire Daria on the spot.
Yes. He also doesn't really _think_ about what he says -- he just regurgitates slogans. He also doesn't really look at the world and people around them -- he's too blinded by his expectations of how things are _supposed_ to be to pay attentiont to the real people he's dealing with. In one of the Daria books, he has a list of mnenomics to remember the names of his class -- he picked the worst ones imaginable, ones totally opposed to the real natures of his students.
Yep.
You have more faith than I do in the public school system :)
A voice crying in the wilderness ([email] (MMan37x)) was heard to say in : W o o ! W o o ! A l l _ a b o a r d _ t h e _ s p o i l e r _ s p a c e _ e x p r e s s !
Well, if Trent had written "Stick it to the Man" in soap on _my_ car, I think I'd probably remember him.
The interesting thing to me was that Mr. O'Neill was able to persuade Trent to help him, especially since Trent's horror of high school has been clearly established. O'Neill's innocent and sincere enthusiasm for Trent's musical genius proved to be exactly the right tactic to use. For once his own goofiness worked in his favor! It's another thing I love about this show - it's always throwing curve balls like that one.
-Mark Steese ----- Jake: Now, if I recall, Romeo meets Juliet by this big bubbly cauldron. Quinn: No, dad, she's at this party he crashes with his friend Mercutio. Jake: Right! The little wooden boy!
And we have David Sorenson to thank for Quinn learning not to be afraid to look like a brain, and Tom (to some extent, at least) for Daria's coming down from her garret to live in the world. Interesting.
I agree -- Daria made a fine substitute teacher, especially a substitute English teacher. And yes, she was much better than Mrs. S. and Mr. Edwards (even Mrs. S. is better than Mr. Edwards, if you ask me).
Unlike Mr. O'Neill, Daria's smart enough to realize that feel-good crap is no substitute for actual knowledge, and she is able to use her knoweldge to help her students -- or try to, at least.
You're right about Ms. Barch. I feel sorry for poor Mack!
No, you don't need to explain about Ms. Li. :D
Sad to say, it does seem Mr. DeMartino expects the impossible. Quite frankly, I'd give up trying to teach Kevin -- and have done so a long time ago.
I think it was Joey who had the "weird interpretation" -- and it might not be so weird -- a few productions of Romeo and Juliet that I've heard of may suggest that Mercutio has an emotional attachment to Romeo.
Well, Quinn did start thinking a bit like Quinn Morgendoffer in "Is It Fall Yet?", but there she was also thinking like a member of the Fashion Club.
Yes, except that this is Ms. Li we're talking about -- I think she hates teachers with a spine.
THAT'S why I thought she hated teachers with a spine. She originally said "In an unprecedented show of spine -- I mean, spite", so I figured she didn't like teachers to show spine to her.
O'Neill's head is so full of egotism about what a kind-and-gentle soul he is, that he never really listens to anybody. This is why he doesn't notice that his teaching, his inane OK-to-cry summer camp, and other projects don't amount to anything.
DeMartino clearly cares deeply about his subject (history), and wants to impart to his students, but his anger control problem keeps getting in the way. Anger and irritability are among the symptoms of Post- Traumatic Stress Syndrome, which is common among Vietnam Vets, of which DeMartino is one.
Yes, he is. But he's also a symbol. Many of the adult characters on the show are an embodiment of one of Daria's weaknesses. DeMartino is Daria's frustration at how the world doesn't live up to her ideals. She will have to learn to accept that things won't always turn out the way she wants, or else she will eventually turn into DeMartino.
Same deal with several others. Barch is Daria's distain for people who don't share her opinions. Helen is the danger of closing herself off from her family (and as Daria has grown closer to her family, so has Helen). Trent is her habit of complaining about things she doesn't like but never really doing anything about them (mirrored by Trent's talk of becoming a rock star but never really putting in the effort required to do so). And so on with Jake, O'Neil, Ms Li, and even Aunt Amy.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Fascinating theory about the adult characters being "mirrors" of Daria's various weaknesses. I can see how Mr. DeMartino and Helen reflect negative aspects of Daria's personality; and to a lesser degree, I can see how Ms. Barch and Trent do the same thing; but could you explain how Jake, Mr. O'Neill, Ms. Li, and even Aunt Amy reflect Daria's weaknesses?
I've always considered Aunt Amy as a reflection of Daria's future. A confident, sexy woman who deals with the Kevins or O'Neills of the world with a shrug rather than a disgusted sigh. Amy's philosphy of life could be a favorite Elvis Costello line: "I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused."
Joe
"Men who never make passes At women who wear glasses Are asses." - Rita Rudner
Jake is Daria's frustration at not being the absolute center of attention for the people she cares about (her immediate family primarily, but it's most apparent when you see how badly she reacts anytime Jane tries to do something that doesn't involve Daria; See Jane Run, Jane's Addition and Partner's Complaint). He's also shares her fear of opening up to people.
O'Neil is sort of the anti-Daria. Daria is a cynical idealist who isolates herself from the world around her as a way of avoiding emotional pain, but in the process cutting herself off from a lot of the good stuff as well. O'Neil is an idealizing pessimist, who completely opens himself up to the world around him hoping to heal everyone else's pain, but usually ends up hurting himself in the process. In trying to reach everyone, any emotional depth he possesses is spread so thin as to be almost meaningless. If Daria completely closes herself off, then her emotional depth will become equally meaningless.
Ms. Li is Daria's expectation that other people should live up to the ideological standards /she/ sets for them. Li is a bureaucrat, and like most bureaucrats, she is primarily devoted to the institution she serves: Lawndale High School. She has become so fixated on the idea of Lawndale becoming a well-respected and safe school, she's completely lost sight of school's purpose of actually educating kids. The ideal has become more important the people who might benefit from that ideal. This is Daria's habit of fanatically perusing her ideals without thinking of how it might impact those around her (the biggest example is "Fizz Ed"; Daria wants the corporate sponsorship gone, but doesn't offer any suggestions for replacing the funding; the lack of school funding never impacted Daria anyway, and she's certainly not going to be out there helping Jodie sell candy bars, which is one reason why Jodie calls her on her constant complaining -- it's easy to make sweeping judgments on something when you don't have anything invested in the outcome).
Amy is Daria's initial isolation from her family. Rita doesn't even expect Amy to attend Erin's wedding, and is incredibly uncomfortable when she actually shows up. She has good reason to be. From the moment Amy arrives, she tries to goad Helen and Rita into fighting. The first words out of her mouth are to remind her sisters that they hate each other, and to belittle Helen in front of her family. Later, she drags up the car issue, which is a sore spot for Helen, simply to throw gasoline on the fire. She's so alienated from her family that she deliberately tries to ruin her niece's wedding just for spite (or for her own sadistic amusement, which would probably be even worse). In this case, Amy is a weakness Daria has overcome. She's no longer alienated from her family: Helen has become someone Daria turns to for advice and support; Quinn and Daria share a mutual love and respect, going out of their way to help each other; Daria and Jake are even close. Any future meeting between Daria and Amy will probably be different from what happened in "I Don't", especially if Amy attempts to run Helen down in front of Daria.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
I'll agree, up to a point about your Aunt Amy anology.
Yes she is a representation of Daria's former isolation from her family.
However Helen, Quinn, and to a lesser extent Jake have changed. They are opening up to Daria, and each other, especially after the emotional rollercoasters everyone in the Morgendorffer clan went through in Season 4 and IIFY.
Aunt Amy was the adult version of Daria in her Season One incarnation
That attitude was one of the reason's why I loved the show in the first place
Up to Season 4 everyone, including Helen, Daria, Quinn, and Jake were also following that gloriously dysfunctional, archetype of the modern American family.
Now it's Season 5 and things have changed.
The Morgendorffer's might escape the loveless trap that the Barksdales and Jake and his father didn't. The oppurtunity to mend fences with each other while they are still under one roof.
I do take exception that Aunt Amy single handedly destroyed Erin's wedding.
The after-reception 'festivities' were inevitable, regardless of Aunt Amy's comments.
With Helen in a rage about 'Mother Barksdale' footing the bill for Erin's wedding AND still fuming about her shabby childhood treatment because of Rita's 'favored child' status.
Hooo boy! Hurricane Helen IS 'The Perfect Storm'!
Then Aunt Rita annoying habit of rudely cutting people off in mid-sentence, and ignoring them, after asking how they're doing?
Well...it was just going to happen.
As Jake so prophetically put it, "Erin is getting married. You know there will be Hell to pay"
And Hell got paid!
Aunt Amy, like Daria, were just adding color commentary on the unfolding events that took place.
Like they always do.
When Aunt Amy shows up this season. and according to Toon Magazine she will, I'm pretty sure that she'll spot the changes that have taken place, and act accordingly.
Helen and Rita weren't going to get along no matter what. But Helen has enough experience -- from work, at least -- of acting civil even when she's fuming inside.
Amy apparently wants to see Helen and Rita keep on resenting each other.
Meanwhile, Rita doesn't like Erin's choice of a husband, Erin doesn't like her mom's current boyfriend, Jake knows that Helen will take her frustration out on him later and he's annoyed that Paul has become more successful than he has, and Brian is a complete jackass.
Amy's antics are just one more stick in a very sweaty pile of dynomite.
Memory is a funny thing. What we remember is not always what truly happened. In Helen's case, she focuses on the bad things she remembers, but it turns out that she and Rita really do love each other. Besides, when Daria and Quinn get married, odds are that Helen's mother will foot the bill for them as well.
She only does that once. Its very likely that Helen's family doesn't like Jake and think that Helen could have done better. Or it could be that she's excited to see Daria and Quinn. (There's also this very weird thing at Southern weddings where the men are pretty much treated as little more than fashion accessories for the women, who expect to be the center of attention.)
Daria, maybe. Amy just added to the problem.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
Aunt Amy originally did not want to go to the wedding. She even told Rita she wasn't coming.
She knew how the wedding was going to end.
But she changed her mind at the last minute.
Why?
Not because she suddenly decided that this was an opportunity to destroy Erin's wedding to spite her sister Rita.
It was because, and I quote, "If you two can put aside years of bitterness and resentment, so can I."
It might have seemed like a sarcastic comment but she was being totally sincere.
When Helen asked her "Why do you say such ridiculous things?" Amy answered sincerely again.
"Because it's true!"
It's that same brutal honesty that Daria displays, and is often misunderstood by the rest of the world. Besides, the fight had to come about in the long run. Whether at Erin's wedding, or some other Barksdale family event.
<It would have been sheer black comedy if it happened at a funeral...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm>
Let's just go with your theory that if Amy never showed up, Helen would have remained 'civil' and wouldn't have created a scene.
It would also have kept the simmering resentment's alive. If the ruckus never occurred, then after the wedding, things would have pretty much went on as before.
It would have continued the poisonous rivalry between the two sisters.
To put the fight in a good light, it was cathartic. It brought Rita and Helen closer together.
By your reasoning, Aunt Amy succeeded in contributing to the destruction of Erin's wedding. But in an example of cosmic irony, she also destroyed the enmity going between her two sisters. Instead of exacerbating the war between Rita and Helen, her actions backfired, and brought them closer together?
Tsk. I ain't buying it!
Aunt Amy thought that this was a chance that she and her sisters might be able to declare a truce, and someday work their way up to some type of lasting peace.
Surprisingly, in part, that's exactly what happened.
Rita and Helen let each other know exactly how they felt, without the BS civility and social correctness.
Maybe a wedding reception wasn't the appropriate time and place to air such 'dirty laundry' but where and when is it really?
Once that was off their collective chests, Rita and Helen are now a little closer than they had been.
Who knows? If Amy would have gotten involved in the fight instead of breaking out when things got hot, she might have reconciled with her sisters too.
Aunt Amy is still out in the cold however, but I don't think she really likes it out there.
I'd definitely agree with that -- she at least wants love and attention from those she cares most about and hates it when she doesn't get it (Jane faces her anger in JA, PC, and the still-unseen-by-me SJR, while Tom finds out how angry she can get in "Sappy Anniversary"). And her fears of opening up to other people -- Tom comes to mind most easily as an example of how difficult it is for her to open up.
Good point. I never thought of it that way. Hopefully Daria won't close herself off so completely.
I never thought of it that way.
True -- but up to a point. After all, Amy isn't the only one who ruins her niece's wedding -- Rita and Helen are also to blame for it because they're so busy fighting an old battle over Grandma Barksdale's favoring Rita that they ruin the wedding as well. Remember the fight at the end? Aunt Amy didn't have much to do with how the fight began. It's possible Amy will actually behave better if she sees that Daria's no longer alienated from her family. But we'll have to wait and see on her next appearance. Which reminds me -- when is the next episode going to be aired, anyway?
Amy starts goading them from the moment she arives -- the first words out of her mouth may as well be "hey, don't forget that you two hate each other." After that, she purposely goes out of her way to make an already tense situation even worse by reminding Helen of even more reasons to be bitter.
I'll have to reread the script of ID -- and watch the show a second time. You obviously have a different interpretation of Amy's behavior than many other people have.
Well, I'll wait two months then. It'll probably be worth the wait.
I think so. I think it started to end in _IIFY_, when Quinn realized that Daria had had a point all along about the need to develop her mind, and Daria realized that Quinn had a point about the need to be sociable.
That was _great_. Note that both Lane sibs wound up teaching the teachers :)
I was struck by the fact that Daria had absolutely no problem gaining the respect of her class, despite the fact that she's only 2 years older than them and they know her as a student.
Did everyone catch Daria's line "Why defend the stupid people? You're NOT one of them." It took a while for Quinn to realize that, considering the source, it was best compliment she'd ever gotten.
And (once again, considering the source) the best compliment Daria's ever gotten was "After all - she's my sister."
******
I hope this definitely completes the journey begin in IIFY for Quinn.
After all, what's been the REAL reason she didn't want to admit Daria's her sister? Because Quinn was uncomfortable with the Daria-like side of herself.
David Sorensen taught Quinn that she actually had a "brainy" side. But that was only part of the story.
Daria made her English test, not a test of "braininess" in the sense of memorized knowledge, but a test of thinking-for-oneself. And Quinn got a B+. And knew why she'd gotten it.
NOW she could publicly acknowledge Daria as her sister. After all, who could doubt it, since they're so much alike?
There's been speculation recently that Daria, if she chose to be a teacher, could end up like DeMartino.
Didn't happen, did it?
She actually gave all her students - ALL of them - the benefit of the doubt. She assumed they all could learn and was quick to reward any small bit of progress shown by any of them.
(I know - Anthony D's been doing this for 20-30 years. )