Jodie is one uppity nigger...

...and tonight's episode was a shark jumping moment. Absolute crap. Stupid darkies.

Bernie

Bernie wrote in message news:...

There was no need to play the race/sex card on the show. The episode sucked. And yes, Jodie sucked, too. Deep inside, she is one helluva racist, opportunistic cunt.

MW.

Mike Wilson said:

When is Jodie "racist?" In _any_ episode? The most I've ever seen is that she is worried that others may be racist towards her, which is not an unreasonable fear.

"Opportunistic" sure, but why is this a _bad_ thing? Would she display greater virtue by being lethargic?

As for "cunt," that's just a rude thing to say about any woman, real or fictional. It's even nastier to say about a teenaged girl.

In article , Jordan S.

I wouldn't call Jodie directly racist, but sometimes she exhibits her mother's paranoia. The scene in question that I recall is where Daria and Jodie go shopping for business loans. When Jodie is shot down by Daria for playing the "folding cup father" card, she flings the racist card back at Daria. The problem is all about exactly what racism is, and how some people use the label as a weapon in its own right. What Jodie has yet to learn (at least as far as I have seen) is how to do it on her own, though admittedly this is difficult with the attitude towards her of her own parents.

Nope. But she does need to examine her standards.

On certain ISP's that word is cause for a ToS abuse. (Anyone remember AOL and the town of S<bleep>horpe?)

chika wrote in message news:[email]...

Heh heh heh.

I've heard of a filter which blocked bolton before.

Chika said:

Well sure ... but her mother's paranoia isn't so much racism directed against white folk, as resentment of patronizing liberal assumptions about black people.

Her parents are both black right-wingers who resent _both_ patronizing liberalism _and_ white racism, and expect her to be _perfect_ to prove _both_ the white liberals _and_ the rednecks wrong. That's a heck of a lot to load on a teenage girl, isn't it?

Well, in particular, she has to learn to relax and have fun. If she doesn't, she'll become "successful" -- and lose Mack, and relate to everyone very superficially, and be a very lonely young woman.

In article , Jordan S.

That's why I don't class it as racism as such. Especially as I would say that Jodie can at least see reason past this where even Jodies' father seems to have problems with his wife's attitude on occasion.

Yup. With all that, it's surprising that she has turned out as well as she has, although this may have something to do with a cynical streak that may not be the equal of Daria's, but bites on occasion. The homecoming parade is a good example.

Certainly, though half the problem there is that her parents do seem to smother her, or at least monopolise her time. I get the feeling that if only she could be allowed to drop some of the multitude of "voluntary" work she does, she would have a chance to relax.

But then a good amount of the series centres on how fit or otherwise the parents are to be parents, and the results of various parental attitudes towards their children. You get the feeling that some of the characters grow up despite their home background, especially the disfunctional Morgendorffers...

In article , [email] says...

History degree???? There is no way you are anything but a Limbaugh dittohead, Bassior.

Let me put it another way: If you can intelligently 'deconstruct' Daria and show me where in ANY of the episodes that the writers intend to portray black "racisim directed against white folk," and can explain your statement, "resentment of patronizing liberal assumptions about black people," I will change my registration to the American Nazi Party, and go on marches along with you.

In the meantime, confess: You are really Bernie, aren't you?

truely, truely an offensive post.

Rochester

Rochester said:

against

Considering that you've just accused me of being a Nazi, this _doesn't_ really deserve a nice reply, but I'll give you one anyway, because I'm not going to descend to your level.

It's in "Gifted," in particular, when the Morgendorffers first meet the Landons. Helen assumes that the Landons are liberals, because they're black, and both the Morgendorffers are quite surprised when Andrew advocates explicitly conservative political positions (he's anti-welfare and pro tax cuts), and Michelle gets annoyed at Helen for implying that Jodie is in any way different in terms of her experiences for being black. You'll see Andrew and Michelle doing much the same thing in a couple of other eps too, though less dramatically, such as in "Of Human Bonding."

As for "resentment of patronizing liberal assumptions about black people," I'm talking about the assumption that blacks, even successful and well-educated blacks (such as the Landons), are somehow victims deserving of some sort of special assistance from whites (who are thus implicitly put in a superior position). I understand _very_ well why Andrew and Michelle Landon resent this attitude, and, while Michelle overreacted a bit at her first meeting with Helen, I totally see why she felt it necessary to point out to her that they were _not_ victims and were _not_ asking for any special assistance.

Now, to address the truly silly things you said in your post:

1) I didn't say that the Landons were racist. In fact, I said that "her [Jodie's] mother's paranoia isn't so much racism directed against white folk ..."

Now, in English, the word "isn't" is a contraction meaning "is not." In other words, I was explicitly saying that Michelle Landon was NOT racist.

Flaming someone is rude. Flaming someone based on an inability to comprehend the post your flaming is _really_ stupid.

2) What does my possession of a history degree have to do with whether or not I listen to Rush Limbaugh?

• Rush Limbaugh is in no way, shape, or form a Nazi.

4) Neither am I. Do you intend to apologize for this totally unprovoked assertion?

And no, I'm not "Bernie" either.

Who, incidentally, are you? I've been posting to this group for close to 3 years now. You, however, are clearly a newbie, as your _style_ doesn't even match any I've ever seen on this group?

OK, that's enough.

If folk can't discuss the vagueries of Jodies' family without resorting to the rhetoric which has sabotaged minority rights throughout the nineties, then forget it. Life's too short.

Or is Rochester really Michelle Landon?

(And considering that I live not a million miles from Rochester, Kent, I can't tell you how silly that sounds!)

Chika said:

I'm confused -- are you complaining about what Rochester said, what I did, or both?

Daria shall remain a beacon of:

WHITE POWER!!!!!!

WHITE POWER!!!!!!

Bernie

Bernie wrote in message news:[email]...

How joyous.

Why does Bernie's rant begin with

"Jordan Bassior wrote"

when he then does not quote a single thing I said?

(admittedly, that's hardly the _most_ offensive thing he does in that post, but it's the one _I_ noticed the most keenly, for the obvious reasons) :)

*Prepares to launch warheads*

Chris Smith

Isn't it kind of weird how we're being invaded by loonies from both the extreme left and extreme right, all at around the same time? It's also interesting that some on _both_ sides seem to be obsessed with Jodie.

Anyone think that maybe it's a bunch of friends trolling us, using sock puppets?

In article , [email] says...

---

Speaking as the Grand High Loonie, it is my sad duty to inform you, that we Loonies will now have to seek future revenge for this grave personal attack on our emotional balance. We're not unbalanced; just sensitive.

In the meantime, I need to remind you of a few things:

*) In just the last few weeks, you have raised the 'troll' defense -- what? eight or ten times? It seems that whenever you can't deal with something, you call that person a troll. Reeel logical.

*) I haven't seen any of us "loonies" bring up Jodie. I have seen a couple of you SpiffyPosters bring her up, though. Sometimes in the company of Hilary Clinton or Al Sharpton. Once in the company of a supposed future "Daria Abortion" episode. And YOU call US Looney?

L&R

In article , [email] says...

A double-backwards race-card twist and a half. Do that on skates and Tanya Harding would have to break your kneecap.

Rochester

In article , [email] says...

And you say I'm paranoid? ... wait a minute. I am.

Bernie

In article , [email] says...

Jodie is right here by my side as I type this. She says that not enough people are obsessed with her, and would like it very much if everyone here would kindly discuss her life a whole lot more than they have. Especially Trent and Kevin. She also would prefer it if all the stuffy old farts (her term -- not mine) like L&R and JBassior and AI3848595834 would please stop creeping her out.

H Clinton

In article , [email] says...

---

I thought that old lady would never leave. Do you know how hard it is to be her intern? She's always trying to introduce me to nice young Democrats when all I want is PuffDaddy, strung upside down from velveteen ropes, in my livingroom when I get home at night.

Look, Mister Bassior. The world is a whole lot crazier place than you can apparently imagine. Especially when you look as good in a miniskirt as I do.

Jodie Landon

Oh my goodness. Reading all those looney posts wore me out, and I had this kind of dream that men have, while I was napping on the day bed. I drempted that I was on the Orient Express headed toward Istanbul with Ayn Rand and my mommie and we went into a tunnel somewhere in Bulgaria. Something embarrassing happened while we were in the tunnel, but I don't know to whom. I'm so confused!

I feel humbled by this experience. I have gained great personal empathy for those whom I once called "Looney." I humbly beg everyone's pardon. As that great philosopheress Rosanne Rosanna Dana once said, " .... Never Mind ..... "

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

Needless to say, Love and Rockets' post didn't come from me :)

In article , [email] says...

Then it must have come from Bernie, that ol' trickster, pretending he was me pretending he was you.

L&R

You're such a candy-ass, you snort pop rocks.

RealBernie

"RealBernie" wrote in message news:[email]...

So are you, and WELCOME to CA: Candyasses Anonymous! Please, have a seat and tell the group about yourself (We're always eager to welcome some .... heh heh heh ... new blood).

*sharpens axe*

Chris Smith - Exterminator, Promoter, Holy Savior,
                        & Former Radio Talkshow Host
                        (That's right, I step on little bugs)

On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:11:22 -0400, "The Outsider" wrote:

Hey! Don't kill my trolls!

You know, I think it's too late for me to post as Tarvok. Henceforth, I shall be known as:

• Captain Chaos! Breeder of Trolls Excessive indulger in laughter

In article , [email] says...

In article ,

Hmm... actually, Chika is MY sock puppet. So there. :�

On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:16:21 -0700, Love and Rockets wrote:

ROTFL!

Okay, it's obvious now. You guys have officially been upgraded to the status of "Pet Troll." I will continue to throw you scraps to keep you alive, because I find you entertaining. If the rest of you don't like getting bit by my pet trolls, stay out of the cage. :p

In article , [email] says...

On 18 Jun 2001 00:00:08 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. They seem to be using lower key identities, and actually analyzing group content this time to tailer their posts, but I remember when I was lurking on soc.relationships.interracial and it got invaded. I thought it was normal content for a group like that, but then I started seeing the same posts in alt.games.daggerfall, and then they swept through here. No doubt, it's trollery. It's surprising Bernie and L&R haven't yet opposed each other directly. I think they're getting smarter.

In article , [email] says...

In article ,

*YAWN* Why bother? The poor inadequate only wants the attention. Perhaps he should try again when his voice breaks and his balls drop...

chika wrote:

Um, you seem to be doing a good job giving Boner, I mean Bernie, alot of attention.

In article , MsGeek <[email] (MsGeek)> wrote:

I plonked Bernie long ago, so I have no idea what the little prick is saying about me. However sorry on my part if he is getting out of his pram right now. Believe me, it is all one sided on his part.

chika wrote in message news:[email]...

In article ,

And that is bad because...?

chika wrote in message news:[email]...

Watch Armageddon.

In article , Jordan S.

Actually, it was Rochester's post that prompted this post. Until that point I had no problems with the thread. I should explain that I have seen the causes of anti-discrimination turned to more suspicious and even deeply discriminatory purposes, quite often in the cause of power for those for whom this becomes a means to "oppress the oppressors", as it would be. In this, the oppressed become as bad as those that would oppress them, in which case the discrimination, whatever form it takes, merely perpetuates itself.

It was also from this point of view that I was trying to analyse Jodie and her family, and why I could not call Jodie racist. Maybe paranoid, certainly observant, even cynical, but not racist.

Chika said:

I agree. In my opinion, the fact that Jodie, and her family, are quite willing to be friendly to the Morgendorffers (by _OHB_ Andrew has no problem with Jake; Michelle thinks the elder Morgendorffers are a bit nutty but obviously respects Daria, and Jodie has liked Daria since season 1) makes it highly improbable that they are racist in any serious way. At most, they have a slight "us / them" mentality, which is quite excusable. MOST people are "racist" on _that_ level :)

In article , Jordan S.

One of the first things you learn in a good equalities class is that /everyone/ discriminates in some way. That in itself is no bad thing; it is when you let it make unfair decisions about people that it becomes bad.

Sorta like the Fashion Club...

And I didn't post this either. Someone's made a shadow AIM account of my AOL account.

That's not only a TOS-able offense, but outright illegal.

On 19 Jun 2001 02:53:31 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Whatever it is, it seems obvious to me that someone here (maybe one of the trolls -- or *the* troll, as there may actually be only one -- that have infested this newsgroup in recent weeks?) is forging headers and posting under different names in order to stir things up evey more. Jordan is definitely a target, and I'm getting a very strong vibe about MsGeek's messages (something just doesn't seem right about them; I need to confirm that they're indeed from Michelle Klein-Hass).

I would humbly suggest that we be on our guard, and not be so quick to jump the gun when someone posts something that's blatantly offensive and/or insulting. We may be blaming someone for something that that person is actually innocent of doing, thanks to this chameleonic troll.

In article , [email] says...

---

I partially confess. I've been a sock puppet here. I *did* post a joke Jordan post, but I also left my name attached to it, and Jordan caught it. I made no other Jordan posts. I am not Bernie. I am not Michelle. In fact, I probably owe Michelle an apology.

L&R

In article , Martin J. Pollard wrote:

He/she/it isn't as chameleonic as it first might appear. All they are doing is editing the client side headers, something which any of us can do with little more than a text editor. What they are not able to do it alter the Path header which traces the posting's route from source to server. So far, the one report I have seen would put the forger on the supernews.com domain.

Certainly it is easy to see if an AOL poster is genuine; AOL posters only post via their own servers. Therefore the last entries on the path would indicate this. Similarly my own posts ONLY come via Argonet and uu.net. The user is also not bothering to alter their posting client. In fact, looking at the header, there is more than enough to allow a Usenet abuse report to be put in, and believe me, the first time I see a fake with my name on it, I shall be addressing . I advise anyone else in the same situation to do likewise.

Well, all that's far too technical for a dumb historian, but I assure everyone I am only posting under my own name. Also I'm not the chairman of Man U, it's just a coincidence. I use Agent at home and Google at work (oops). _____________________________

******Martin Edwards.******               |

_____________________________

Come on! Nobody's gonna drive that lousy freeway when you can take the Red Car for a nickel

-Eddy Valiant

In article ,

Again, your posts are easy to spot since they come from BT's servers, notably mendelevium.btinternet.com or one of its cohorts. Any post running to this list from a UK ISP is hardly likely to run from supernews.com.

If anyone cannot or doesn't know how to check, let me know and I'll keep an eye on any posts that are forged.

chika wrote in message news:[email]...

As Daria says: "Let's join hands and hate each other for who we are as individuals."

In article ,

Right on, man! :))

chika wrote in message news:[email]...

Hyok, it could be worse, he could be called Bromley.

On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:49:01 +0100, chika wrote:

Rochester was the name of Jack Benny's black valet, so it could be a pseudonym. There was quite a bit of stereotyping, as you can imagine. _____________________________

******Martin Edwards.******               |

_____________________________

Come on! Nobody's gonna drive that lousy freeway when you can take the Red Car for a nickel

-Eddy Valiant

In article , [email] says...

Offended?

... now you know how I felt when I read that Liberals "patronize" blacks.

As far as I am concerned, vilifying an entire political philosophy off-hand like that in order to explain something in a "Daria" episode, is stooping pretty low to start with.

... and I'll give you part of this. I didn't interpret this scene quite this way, though. Part of the point of that scene, was that Michelle misunderstood Helen -- she was too quick to assume the worst about Helen's attitudes, which she did not mean to be patronizing. But then, Helen hasn't been presented as a political "Liberal" in the show, anyway, so it couldn't have been an example of "Liberal patronizing" in any case.

Here we go. ... this is duplicitous, hypocritical Republican National Committee hogwash. A political lie.

Helping a friend is NOT patronizing them. Standing up for a friend is NOT victimizing them. Doing the decent thing on its own merits is NOT betraying a weakness. Honoring what another person has been through in their life does not turn a Liberal (or anyone else) into a patronizing Liberal.

The Civil Rights movement in the US was and is a Liberal political movement. Blacks know that the Civil Rights movement is not 'patronizing' or 'enslaving' them, and they are the ones who decide this issue -- not you, and not me. In California, Blacks gave George W. Bush only three percent of their vote in the last election. Think of what that means -- three percent.

As politically Conservative Blacks, Jodie's parents would be members of a miniscule minority. They do not present a view that a majority of black adults actually hold in this country. Their reaction to Helen would be rare. That is where some of the comedy in "Daria" comes from, and it is also where some of Jodie's angst comes from.

You are welcome to correct me. and I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Ironic. Jordan, you are an expert at failing to comprehend a post and responding to what you thought someone meant, instead.

In my opinion, you either learned to think for yourself when you got that History degree, or you let Rush Limbaugh think for you because you didn't learn anything. You can't do both, beause Rush doesn't tolerate disagreement.

I don't have a high opinion of Rush. Saying things like "liberals patronize blacks" is directly off his radio show, and leads me to suspect that perhaps you are repeating something you heard him say without thinking about it first.

I could actually argue this, but not here. Have you heard Rush sing "I'm a Nazi" on the internet? It's pretty funny.

I don't know. I haven't decided yet. I think I need to see a little more personal respect for other points of view. When I see daria posters use terms like "Liberal dogma," "patronizing," "pinko," and "commie," to comment on the latest "Daria" episode; and this from people who also defend McCarthy -- I see visions of Hitler.

Good. I made my point.

I am neither a newbie, nor am I a troll, nor should it matter, since my posts should stand or fall on their own merits.

I've been reading this group as long as you have. I have posted occasionally in the past. I seldom post out of respect for regular posters here, with whom I often disagree.

"Daria" has only two weeks to go and it will be gone for all of us. I think you can stand to deal with another point of view for that short time. I will be sorry to see "daria" go and will mourn her passing along with you. Daria should not be allowed to die.

Rochester

Rochester said:

Ask Roy Innis about that.

(I worked at CORE for a while).

Or for that matter, ask Michelle Landon about that. She's the one who had the objection.

Michelle misinterpreted Helen's attitudes as liberal patronizing of blacks. That was very clearly shown in the episode.

And where do you get the notion that Helen isn't politically liberal?

Indeed. What does this have to do with liberal patronization of blacks, though? Or _Daria_?

not I

When did I mention Rush Limbaugh? _You_ introduced him, out of nowhere, into the combination.

He's said it, but I realized this long before I heard Rush Limbaugh say it.

Why don't you go and jab a coathanger up your cunt you treachorous semen encrusted pubic sore.

Bernie

In article , Rochester wrote:

Careful with the cutting there...

Maybe. But then which is worse? Let's face it, political correctness has been a serious barrier to understanding mostly because of those who would use it in ways it was never intended to be used. Is it worse to speak out against racism, or to speak out against convenient patronage of a minority? Minorities despise discrimination, but is this patronage, often expressed in tokenism and quota regimes, is just discrimination in another form? Jodie sees that much (I Loathe a Parade is a great example of that much).

I agree that Michelle is very quick to assume things - I've called her paranoid and I'll stick to this - but this is not about Helens' politics since she has also exhibited this with Jake. At no time does she attempt to find out the exact political persuasion of either Morgendorffer parent, she merely jumps in there. However I do agree that where the Landons make assumptions about the Morgendorffers, the assumptions ran both ways. It made the association scene between Jodie and Daria at the end of Gifted where both rejected the idea of attending this special school that much more meaningful.

There's a common phrase used in such situations. "There's no such thing as a free lunch." I agree, standing up for a friend isn't necessarily patronage, but one has to first ask two important questions. Firstly, who asked for anyone to stand up for anyone else, and secondly what are the motives. Self seeking motives can easily turn a good samaritan into a greedy politician at a stroke, and might protecting somebody diminish that persons' own self esteem if applied badly? As unreasonable as Michelle might be, I can't blame her for her attitude, especially if such acts have previously stung her.

That's fair enough

That worries me somewhat. I have yet to see series 5 but up to now I viewed Daria as someone who used politics of both left and right purely in a satirical sense. I hope I'm right...

If people are willing to keep it alive, Daria won't die.

History degree???? There is no way you are anything but a

Come on, how many times does he have to tell you, he's a libertarian.

_____________________________

******Martin Edwards.******               |

_____________________________

Come on! Nobody's gonna drive that lousy freeway when you can take the Red Car for a nickel

-Eddy Valiant

Martin Edwards said:

I don't think that Rochester's exactly the brightest decoration on the Christmas tree :)

In article , [email] says...

You are a shrewd, shrewd man, Mister Edwards.

Rochester