Anyone else think that Mack and Jodies only purpose on the show is to ward off the PC police? I dont care that they have black characters on Daria, Im no racist, but why must they make these 2 so dull and uninteresting? Even the episode where they try to show a little more of Jodie didnt work, and for once I found the Quinn B plot more interesting. Lamest characters on the show by far. Give them some damn personalities already Glenn, or get rid of them.
GX
GingerX wrote in message ...
Nah, I think that they've got a fair amount of depth. Much like the rest of the characters, though, it's subtle.
Take another look at "Gifted" for example, which is really *Jodie's* episode. Pay attention to her character and the way they play her off of Daria and the other smart kids.
Also, take a look at "The Misery Chick," the dialog between Daria, Jane and Jodie on the lawn really gives a good deal of insight into her character.
Mac, on the other hand, is another thing entirely. As far as I know, he hasn't had *his* own episode yet (and I think I've seen all but one). If you pay careful attention though, you can see that his character does have depth, and is by no means dull...
I hope that the character development in the show follows the same pattern it has over the last 2 seasons. I *don't* want them to spell things out. That would ruin the show. Each character has real depth (even the outwardly vapid ones like Kevin, Brittany and Quinn).
Hell, even the fashion club girl with braids (I'm unsure of her name) has tons of depth!
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:51:22 -0500, "Chris Seamans" wrote:
That would be Stacy, and yes, but it's REALLY hard to see. I saw it at one time, but then I went through a stage where the eps I saw most often were Fair Enough ("Waaah!"), Road Worrier ("Ohmygod! I'm wearing streatch pants!!!"), and others where her hypersensitive nature was all that showed. I still want to know what ep I saw that comment of hers. She said something that went completely over Sandi's head. I think it might have been "Malled" or "The Invitation," or another of those earlier ones. Any of the minutae experts know what I'm talking about (or am I full of gibberish)?
Tarvok wrote in message ...
I'll have to keep my eye out. The subtle dimensions they give the characters is what really kept me interested in the series.
Chris Seamans wrote in message ...
characters
"It is terribly important to give an audience a lot of things they may not get[,] as well as those they will, so that finally the film does take on a texture and is not just simplistic communication." (Alan J Pakula, film director)[1]
One of the strengths of Daria, IMHO, is that they know this and practise it. If asked for evidence, then I'd cite your point about subtle character developments, and things like the Nietzsche quote ("That which does not kill us...").
Martin.
[1] Quoted in (Ed.) John Walker, Halliwell's Film & Video Guide. 12th Edition. Harper Collins Publishers, London 1996 (marketed as "1997 edition"). p572 c4.
The last few episodes Stacy's been in - from the Australian persepctive - have done a lot to build her character. It's a cliche, but I think she's going to end up being the 'nice one' from the fashion club - witness the way the other two (whose name's I can't remember) were so appalling rude to someone who was supposedly their friend when she was obviously in need of support.
And onto more stereotypes and tokens: does anyone remember that news story a few years back about the mother who murdered the head cheer leader so her own daughter could have that position? I can just see something like that happening with the president of the fashion club and her mum 8)
And which characters do you think will end up being outed as queer? It could be Stacy, given the huge crush she seems to have on Quinn. Given that we've seen Trent in drag on the end credits, he could be bi - he just seems very capable of it. His friend (another nameless blank) just seems to fit the whole buff and vapid gay-boy image.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents in the discussion for now 8)
build high for happiness
Jon
I assume you mean Sandi and Tiffany, and how they treated Stacy in "Fair Enough."
No. The cheerleader mom was (from what I recall) a trashy loser. Whatever flaws she has, Linda (Sandi's mom) is quite successful.
Being gay myself, I have to say I don't think any of these characters are gay. Stacy doesn't have a crush on Quinn, she just hasn't developed her own personality. And the end-credit depiction of Trent in drag is just one of many amusing pictures from the animators and have nothing to do with the show's reality...unless you think Brittany will turn into a dragon. And Jesse (Trent's bandmate) is just vapid, period.
Yup 8)
Well, that aside, think they both have a definite evil streak. Not just mean, but evil 8)
Neither do I, but you can always dream 8)
Leave a person their dreams 8)
Weeelllll, our 'talented' cheer leader certainly showed an evil streak in Fair Enough when she kidnapped Kevin. And trent looks really good in that dress.
Give him blonde hair and call him Fabio
build high for happiness
Jon
In article , [email] (Jon Andersen) wrote:
Well, you aren't the only one who's thought about this...here's a fanfic, "Ragged Denim," that postulates a sexual relationship between Trent and Jesse. (Jesse is the name of the Jim Morrison wannabe guy in Mystik Spiral) Warning: it's very explicit and not for the squeamish.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mgoodman/ragged.html
Take care, --.\\<-H--
I had to go read this...it's quite bizarre, and everyone is acting out of character as far as I'm concerned.
Hey, does this mean "EEP!" is now available as a sig line? :-)
In article , [email] wrote:
Sure, Joe...knock yourself out.
--.\\<-H--
I thought about it, but I think I'll pass it on to whoever else wants to use it.
Jeg7777 wrote:
Y'know, "Eep!" would make a good windows crash sound. <g>
rich.
Jane: Usually when I have this dream I'm wearing pink taffeta.
Yes, it would.. but i like mine better.
it's daria's infamous "excuse me?" from esteemers. : )
[email] (CrtoonDude) wrote:
Well, what would really be cool (hey, MTV folks, are you listening? <g>) would be if someone gathered really good audio snippets from some of the more classic eps, and put them together on the Daria MTV site as WAV/AU files for Windows/Mac system sounds (that way no one would be treading on any proprietary toes. <g>) ... I mean, the cheese background is a cute start, but who wouldn't want to have Helen yell "Phone!" (or insert favorite character's memorable line here) every time a call comes in to your modem? Or, "What does it take to get my interoffice mail before nightfall?" every time you get/don't get mail... I dunno... I'm sure there are all kinds of good audio tidbits out there. (Gestures vaguely.) Make it so! <g>
Oh, and while you're at it, how about some Daria DVDs? Then the Tape Brigade wouldn't have to snivel so much about reruns getting screwed up. <g> (Which, BTW, happened again today-- 2 audio bobbles in "Misery Chick." Dammit. There are some eps I'll just never get good copies of, I guess.) I mean, if Celebrity Deathmatch can get two volumes out at once, and South Park can churn out 3 DVDs after its first season, surely the MTV suits can realize that a properly-done, not-cheaped-out-on-the-music set of Daria DVDs would be a very Good Thing in everyone's book. I know I'd buy a set.
off the soapbox, rich.
Daria: Sorry, with all of this animation, I thought I was on Nickelodeon for a moment.
Jane: You wish.
Daria: Tell me about it.
On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:01:56 GMT, [email] (paperpusher) wrote:
Hmmmmmm.......(whips out a pencil and a pad of paper)
Hell, I'd settle for tapes of the various episodes like they did with the pilot and 1-3. Of course that would blow *that* week's paycheck if they released all of 'em at the same time :)
Damon Orca on #Stars!
I'm sorry, but I just can't get rid of Ren's famous "You EEEDIIOOOTTTT"
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
[email] wrote:
I like mine... Beavis, freaking out, going, "DAMMIT, DAMMIT, SONOFABITCH!"
--J.
In article , [email] wrote:
I'm gonna have to get a copy of Marge Simpson going "hMmmmm..."
I'm also reminded of:
"Ip." -- John Cage, "Ally McBeal" "Uuuhhh..." -- Lurch, "The Addams Family"
Sorry, but my personal favorite is; "Oh my gosh!" -- Amanda King, "Scarecrow and Mrs. King." SHe always said that when the times would bring to mind the worst profanity. A perfect example is when she and a lookalike were hanging from a building and Lee,aka Scarecrow, couldn't tell the difference between them and was trying to figure out which one to save. She looked down and said her famous line, then he saved her. When she asked him how he knew it was her, he replied, "Who else do I know whose last words would be 'Oh my gosh'?" It was a classic. Sorry, this turned out longer than I intended. :)
Lanie
Dotty: Did you have a nice evening? Amanda: It was pretty quiet. Just me and my popcorn and my book. (Dotty looks at the book) Dotty: You know you're a lot like I am. You love to read a good dictionary.
Mrsstetson wrote:
That reminds ME of this movie.. I think it was one of the Hellraiser series. Anyways, I was watching it on TV and of course profanity was dubbed out. So there's this one part where some chick's wall is opening up into a gate of hell and these monsters are going to come and drag her back to torture/kill/mutilate her... and the word they used to dub in was "SHOOT!" I mean, they could have done a better job than "SHOOT!" of all things. Stupid censors, anyway.
--J.
[email] wrote:
I've started doing that recently, that disapproving noise. It's turning into a really annoying habit... <g>
endless, nameless wrote:
Yeah, I find myself doing that, too. I do Patty and Selma as well. A friend of mine says I sound so much like Julie Kavner, it's scary. %-{)>
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
make GEORYN disappear to reply
"'Thin Thighs For Your Man.' But I don't *like* men with thin thighs" --Daria
N.P.:"Boris And His Three Verses"- Y e z d a U r f a / S a c r e d B a b o o n
concerned. << Jeg7777
Aside from having Trent and Jesse be gay, everyone is nasty (except Daria, who comes across as whiny). The writer doesn't seem to have grasped that both Trent and Jane actually care about Daria; they wouldn't be amused by her total humilation as in that fanfic. Not even if Trent were gay and Jane sleazy.
Sincerely Yours, Jorda
In article , "Chris Seamans" wrote:
Well, Staci (I think that's the one you mean) seems to be used for comic relief whenever possible (acting like Quinn in 'Gifted' talking to Jane and Daria in 'Fair Enough') so her depth is very variable.
Mike Quinn I can be reached through e-mail at: [email]
Mike Quinn wrote in message ...
I was thinking of her acting like Quinn in "Gifted," and that scene depressed the hell out of me for some reason.
Then I was thinking specifically of one line in "Quinn the Brain" I think it was. Just one, when she comments that she's been giving away her poems to greeting card companies for free. There are professionals who make some of their living doing this... Again, it kind of weirded me out.
In article , [email] wrote:
I think they've done a very nice job with Jodie's character, and especially her parents...if they weren't going to tread racial ground, they wouldn't have portrayed Michelle as hyper-vigilant against possible racial slurs. As for Mack, I don't think he's really intended to be a major character, so I'm not expecting a whole lot of character development as far as he's concerned.
[email] wrote:
Mack really irritates me. I'm not sure why, but he does.
In article , "endless, nameless" wrote:
I'll have to disagree with you there. I like Mack's character, he's one of my favorites. And I think that having him really helps balance out some of the stereotypes on the show. Yeah, a lot of jocks are like Kevin, but not all of them. There are a few, like Mack, that actually are intelligent and realize that there's more to life than football. I'm really hoping that they develop his character some more this season, like they have with Jodie.
Ann
Ann Booth wrote:
What, you say he doesn't irritate me? :)
I don't know why I don't like him. There's nothing specifically about his character that gets on my nerves, it's just.....him.
In article , "endless, nameless" wrote:
of
especially
wouldn't
As
I'm
concerned.
"Yeah...That's exactly what I'm saying." :)
Speaking of Mack, was it just me, or did his voice sound A LOT different? especially his singing voice? it sounded alot deeper than normal..
Keep in mind, i may be delusional.
Only if I am too.:) It did sound deeper, though it could be any number of things that caused it, including the possibility that the normal voice actor might not be able to hold a note in a bucket.:) We'll just need to wait a few eps to see if his voice returns to normal or if it's "cracked" permanently.
Len
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:42:28 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:
I think he's cool. He's just that smart football player (could that be it?) that doesn't like being called mack daddy. He's not an idiot (like Kevin), he's not overzealous (like Jodie or Brittany), he's not too sarcastic (like Daria) or obsessive (like Quinn). He's just an all around okay kind of guy, not personally exceptional, just, that one guy.
When him and Jodie are on screen it feels akward and forced for some reason, they are the only two characters on the show (well re-occuring characters, The running loser from "See Jane Run" caused the same "Mack syndrome" effect) that have this effect on me. The whole "Don't Call me Mack Daddy" thing was tired in ep #102, and Jodie, ugh, cant put my finger on it but I just dont like her!
Ginger-X
I completely, thoroughly disagree.
Mack's character is a tad underdeveloped, but Jodie's character is one of the best on the show.
A *lot* of stuck-up Daria fans need to watch Gifted over and over.
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:12:14 -0800, GingerX wrote:
___ Kyle ICQ #12773280
The dead have risen and they're voting Republican!
Another Nugget Of Wisdom from the Wonderful World Of Kyle(TM)
In article , [email] wrote:
By pandering to the PC Police, it invites their further scrutiny... Jodie and Mack's personalities will have to be very carefully developed, as it won't take very much before someone's knee jerks so hard it takes somebody's eye out, and there are cries of "Racial Stereotype!"
How to phrase this...? Consider the black characters in the cartoons "Captain Caveman" and "Josie and the Pussycats" (names forgotten, it's been a while). They always come across to me as "the sensible one". They're not "the cowardly one" or "the ditzy one" as attaching negative? personality traits to them would cause cries of "Racism!" from the appropriate areas. As a result, they have no negative traits, but also no more positive traits than the other characters. [Hah! Racial Equality: They can't have _more_ positive traits, as that would imply they're some kind of super-race, smart, strong and beautiful, with the others being somehow inferior. Well, that's my spleen emptied...]
It also strikes me as only being true where there are black and white characters in the same show. In a programme where all or a majority of characters are black, the personalities might be more defined. Not having seen "Fat Albert" I can't comment on it...
I'm done treading over eggshells; someone else's turn.
GingerX wrote in message ...
I see things differently.
What about Joey, Jeffy and Jamie (have I got the names right?)? If Glenn dumps every supporting character, it'll be an unbelievably small HS!
Why should the two black[1] characters be dumped? Because they are black, and black characters should be fully developed characters or nothing? Tiffany next?
I don't see them (or Jodie's mum) as vapid tokens (see "Gifted") but I accept that GingerX does, and others might.
Would a HS without any black students be believable? Without locating it more precisely, losing Lawndale's identity as every American HS?
I'm commenting on GingerX's ideas here, not accusing him or her of racism, or reverse racism, or anything else. I'm describing how I see it, not saying that GingerX's view is brainless. 8-)
Martin.
[1] Please substitute whatever racial designation is currently acceptable in your area - I'm writing from the UK.
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:50:32 -0000, "Martin Sylvester" wrote:
For the record, our HS of over 800 students has precisely 1 black student. But this isn't exactly the Coasts.
___ Kyle ICQ #12773280
The dead have risen and they're voting Republican!
Another Nugget Of Wisdom from the Wonderful World Of Kyle(TM)
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:12:14 -0800, GingerX wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they DO have personalites, just not really flashy ones. They seem perfectly realistic to me.
Whaddaya want? Rap music and some gangsters?
No, I want characters who dont bore the living fuck out of me. Mack and Jodie are lame. I also love how they seem to be the only 2 on the show who have no flaws. If Daria did get a "Gangsta" late 90s poseur loser I'd stop watching the show, and dont even suggest I'd go anywhere near rap, thats an insult!
Ginger-X
No flaws? In 'Gifted,' Jodie goes on about how she has to be perfect because she's 'the Queen of the Negroes.' That doesn't sound like a very healthy attitude to me. Sooner or later she's going to relaize that she can't be the ambassador for her race, and that she's been wasting a lot of her time and energy trying.
As for Mack, well what can I say? I haven't seen very much of him, and when I did, he didn't make much of an impression. He's kind of dull, and doesn't seem to have a lot of spine. If he really hates being called Mack Daddy, why does he put up with it? For that matter, that name-changing business indicates that his father has some problems, and Mack's sure to have been affected by it.
In article , Eric Stevenson wrote:
He doesn't like the name "Mack Daddy" because it's a black slang term for pimp.
What can he do about Kevin's insistence on calling him that, short of whaling the tar out of him? That's the only way it would get into Kevin's thick skull to stop calling him that...a beating. And Mack is a guy who would understand that such a beating would jeopardize everything he's worked hard to attain.
Mack isn't spineless...he's just peaceful and sensible.
--.\\<-H--
Michelle Klein-Hass wrote in message ...
pimp.
Nah, I really think you're reading too far into it.
It's the context, not the meaning.
Kevin's just clueless, not a direct asshole.
In article , "Chris Seamans" wrote:
I think Michelle isn't reading too much into it, you're confusing the point she's trying to make. She was explaining why Mack found the "Mack Daddy" nickname offensive, not saying that Kevin was trying to be an asshole by using it.
It's obvious that at some point Kevin was walking by a bunch of blacks (or maybe saw them on tv?) and heard them use the expression, and it somehow got into his head that it would be a way for him to relate to his friend Mack (without really knowing what it meant). Unfortunately, once he got the idea into his head it was hard to jar it out.
Likewise when he finally got the message and resorted to calling Mack "Bro", it was the same tactic. He was clearly attempting to relate to Mack, he's just too clueless to appreciate how offensive his words are.
Mikel Midnight wrote in message ...
No, that's not quite what I was meaning. When I said it's the context, not the meaning, I was trying to get at something along these lines:
Kevin knows Mac's Middle name is "Mackenzie." Since he's heard the term "Mack Daddy" (which, btw, at least around here indicates that someone is smoothe with the ladies, mack is a verb meaning "to hit on," daddy implies great skill) he thinks it helps him to relate with Mac.
That's what I meant by saying it was in the "context" not "meaning."
Most likely, considering Kevin's approximate age, he probably heard it in that extra popular "Kriss Kross" song ;^)
"The daddy mack'll make you JUMP JUMP" "The mack daddy'll make you JUMP JUMP"
Which is exactly what I was saying. It's the context, not the meaning.
On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:30:23 -0800, [email] (Mikel Midnight) wrote:
Actually, I think Mack has alwasy been Mack, but, in the pointless effort to sound "cool" (much like Jake's attempts to sound "cool" by using buzzwords), Kevin get's it in his head to call Mack, "Mack Daddy." Though I've never heard anyone use it (except in a deliberate attempt to sound dorky), calling someone "The Mack" in reference to their smooth, successful attitude is not uncommon around here. The connection to it's original usage is very weak. A simelar phenomon is the practice of "sagging" done by young people around here. (That means wearing entirely too large pants hanging around the buttoks, something done by wannabe "gangsta's".) It originated in hard prisons as an "invitation" (you do the math), but has been copied by wannabes everywhere, unknowing of it's origin.
Tarvok wrote in message ...
A nice urban legend, but alas it's not true.
[email] (Tarvok) wrote:
Sorry, but I had to jump in when I saw that line about Jake trying to sound cool-- did anyone here ever see "Better Off Dead?" It was a Savage Steve Holland Film from the mid-80s -- absolutely hysterical-- in which John Cusack played the part of a depressed HS student whose girlfriend just dumped him. His father, who's a lawyer, (played well by David Ogden-Stiers) -- tried desperately to sound "cool" so he could relate to his depressed son by reading books on 70's slang. <g> "Right Off!" "That's on, dad." Definitely worth catching on TV. I wish I had it on tape around here, or else I could quote the exact lines-- anyway, it was a hoot.
shutting up, rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
I love this movie! It's absolutely one of the only good teen movies to come out of the '80s.
He was reading some kind of "relate to your teen" psychology book, but anyway, that's one of the best quotes from that movie. I'm just surprised to find anyone else who's heard of it.!
~Aprille
DariaM150 wrote in message ...
anyway,
Really? It's a very famous and popular movie 'round here ;^)
I'd be more surprised if somebody *hadn't* heard of it.
In article , "Chris Seamans" wrote:
I haven't!
But I missed a whole 'generation' of films that came out in the mid-90's due to lag from moving back from England, so this happens to me often. it's very strange.
Mikel Midnight wrote in message ...
But it came out in the early 80s! ;^)
Hey, that's what the internet's for. You should go and rent it out immediately. It's a fantastic movie. In the same vein is "One Crazy Summer," another fantastic Savage Stave Holland film.
Chris Seamans wrote:
Ah, this explains why I hadn't heard of it. :)
Chris Seamans wrote:
I hadn't heard of it.
endless, nameless wrote in message ...
Well, now you have!
So go out and see it or something... ;^)
Chris Seamans wrote:
Erm, what was it called again? I don't watch movies much, they're always too long....saw one on TV a while ago about a junkie with AIDS and a baby, or something, that was quite good.
"endless, nameless" wrote:
"Better Off Dead." Very silly movie. You may like it. (You may not, but at least you'll have something to do. <g>)
rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
paperpusher wrote:
Oh, I have plenty of things to do. So many things that I can't do any of them, in fact. This may sound odd, but that's how I work. If I have too much to do I can't do a bloody thing. Lately I've just been sat on the sofa staring at the TV most of the day....I sat there for half an hour today watching channel 7, which has nothing on except that thing with the coloured stripes. I'm losing it completely....
"endless, nameless" wrote:
Ah, I wouldn't worry too much about it--people sit and stare into the sky, out a window, etc... that's about the same thing, except the colors are more... um... defined. :-)
--J.
"Jessica L." wrote:
I have found something better to do now. Paul Gate sent me a nice Kenickie CD and I'm listening to that all the time. :) All together now.... "P - U - N - K - A - Punka! Lo-fi songs are great - Punka!"
endless, nameless wrote in message ...
"Better Off Dead"
here. (That means wearing entirely too large pants hanging around the buttoks, something done by wannabe "gangsta's".) << Tarvok
Yes, that's pretty funny. There have been more than a few cases where people dressing in this fashion have committed crimes and been easily captured by the police when they tried to run away and their pants fell down :-D ... not kidding!
been copied by wannabes everywhere, unknowing of it's origin. <<
Didn't know it started as an invitation ... I thought it simply started from fat kids losing weight in prison and pretending that that's how everyone dressed "in the slammer."
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
'the Queen of the Negroes.' That doesn't sound like a very healthy attitude to me. Sooner or later she's going to relaize that she can't be the ambassador for her race, and that she's been wasting a lot of her time and energy trying. << Eric Stevenson
She's trying to live up to her mother's demands for her. She's really a very smart, nice person, but she must feel constantly inadequate trying to play some sort of nonsensical world-historical role when she's only in her late teens. Anyone would.
when I did, he didn't make much of an impression. He's kind of dull, and doesn't seem to have a lot of spine. If he really hates being called Mack Daddy, why does he put up with it? <<
Short of maniacally attacking people (and he's not the violent type) what would you have him do? He gets annoyed when people do it ... Kevin just isn't very good at taking hints.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
She's trying to be the absolutely perfect person: not only a good student like Daria, also "attractive and popular" like Quinn... not to mention areas of student leadership like Student Council. That makes her a very realistic character. My school has students of all races (but mostly Dutch) who act exactly like this: their parents plan out their entire lives for them so they become a doctor or something, and so they panic about sometime getting an A- and have to join EVERY possible activity (and often sports) and in addition to that they have to obsess over looks so they can also find a good husband/wife to settle down in their suburban split level and have 2.25 kids....
Most of these people are in my AP Biology class
Dagny misery chick, cynic, general loony
Visit the Parsley Firefly http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"One must have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: you still have chaos in you." Friedrich Nietzsche
[email] (Eccles9697) wrote:
And if it weren't for them, the shrinks of America wouldn't have work. :-)
rich.
Quinn: I can't be a brain! My friends will hate me!
In article ,
Well, the only offending party there is Kevin, and I'm guessing Mack knows that Kevin doesn't know any better; he finally told him off in "See Jane Run", but he probably doesn't have the heart to punch Kevin's lights out or anything, which I guess would be the next step.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.... OK, OK, I respect your opinion and all, but somebody had to defend rap.