i ii iii iv v vi vii viii ix x xi xii xiii xiv xv xvi xvii xviii xix xx xxi xxii xxiii xxiv xxv xxvi xxvii xxviii xxix xxx xxxi xxxii xxxiii xxxiv xxxv xxxvi xxxvii xxxviii xxxix xxxx "I came, I saw. . . " this one coming a mile away. How many of you *knew* this was a Peggy Nicoll episode by the time it was half-over? She remains true to the form (her form, really) of #107, #202, #208, #210 and produces another one where *everybody* "developes," Brittany, Kevin, Jodie, The FC, Quinn and the "J" Gang, but not Daria, who is completely unnecessary to the plot; again, just what we expect from Nicoll. Toss in speaking parts for Chuck and Andrea, the O'Neil/Barch affair, new relatives revealed, and attention to ones we've seen before as well. Of course it was reference heavy -- from Jane's copying Goya's "Cinco de Mayo" in the beginning to Jake's "Close Encounters"-esque mashed potato sculpture -- but I don't mind that like some people do. And it was funnier (TMA) than say, "Fair Enough" or "TOATB." Plus, the action's been flipped from #208 and #210, now Quinn comes out on top and it's the FC who's left out in the cold. (And snow! whoa, bonus!) Caveats: For Daria & Jane to dump two guys them seem to like just because of who's their cousin is just as shallow as for the FC to hold it againt Quinn for having a "brain" as a sister. Also, it's pretty clear that it's P. N.'s mission to improve our perception of Brittany's intelligence, (see her eps above) and while it is *so* like this show to resist any vacant females (but allow male Kevin wallow in stupidity), I do notice and dislike this sort of prejudiced casting. All in all? It's not a classic like #113, but P.N. eps should be judged by a different standard. Someone has to keep up with the minor characters and that precludes the possibility for much serious drama for the usual main character, Daria. So I due give credit to its comedic success and just hope Nicoll never takes over and changes the show to "Quinn" Such is the news from nowhere, G'night all, --BB
From my cuff to you, a #304 Review SPOILERS
"Cinco de Mayo?" What am I saying!? That should be "Tres." Ah, well. I'm not a "huge" Goya fanatic.
In article , "B_B_England" wrote:
I don't keep track of the writers of individual writers but think about the eps you mention, it was obvious that the same person came up with all of them.
This completely went over my head. It is very hypocritical.
Those aren't the only eps that show a glimmer of intelligence in Brit. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is her advice in TALD. What worries me is how some of the male characters are portrayed. All most all of them is shown to be either a bumbling idiot, a devious manipulator or comic relief. The only male characters that have never been portrayed this way are Trent and Mack (who is hardly seen anymore, anyway)
Mike Quinn [email] "...the race is long, and in the end it's only with yourself..."
Mike Quinn wrote:
<snip>
But completely understandable. If you were in their shoes, could you blame them for wanting to keep a safe distance from the dreaded Ruttheimer gene? Remember, too, the guys liked to hang out with Upchuck-- would anyone want to be subjected to that on anything more than a very infrequent basis?
I'm sorry, I didn't see Brit offering anything remotely resembling intelligence in this ep-- it was all Jodie's idea, and the comment Jodie made went completely over her head. (What else is new, though?)
As for the portrayal of the majority of the male characters as idiots, well, that's not really a black-and-white issue, IMHO. Yes, the focus of the show has never been very male-friendly, but the show *is* about a teenage girl, and let's face it, a lot of guys out there are idiots and jerks, especially from the POV of a teenage girl. There are both good and bad male characters.
On the minus side, Jake started out as an okay kind of guy in #101, he seemed pretty normal in #103, but in #104 he started the slide downhill, and by now, he's building castles out of *mashed potatoes.* (Okay, he did shine for a moment in #307 until he wrecked the car, but since then, it's been back to the downhill slide.) I get the feeling that both he and DeMartino will be sharing a padded room in the near future, because both have become so emotionally handicapped that it's a miracle that either one could function on a day-to-day basis.
On the plus side, O'Neill has improved some as a character-- yes, he's still a dishrag, but he's not nearly as bad as he was in season one, and he's actually offered useful advice once in a rare while. :-)
Mack and Trent are also good characters, and both have had opportunities to display their better qualities. But Mack isn't really a central character, and Trent is, well, let's just say that as a character, anything he says/does gets overanalyzed.
It can also be argued that Upchuck has been consistent-- consistently reptilian, but consistent. Somebody's gotta play the role of Ricky Smith (see "Better Off Dead"), I guess-- there's always one guy like that in any situation.
It's also nice to see the 3Js start to develop a little as characters, but they still have a looong way to go-- I'd love to see an alter-ego of them as a three-headed monster-- it's more fitting that way. :-)
Kevin-- well, I don't mind it if he's dumber than a bag of hammers, it's vital to his character. ;-) (And *someone* has to play the role of dumb jock.)
Yeah, there have been other dumb guy characters, and some manipulative bastards, but that's how life works-- you're not friends with everyone for a reason-- a lot of people just get on your damn *nerves.* :-) And, hey, those two cousins of Upchuck weren't so bad, for cousins of Upchuck, that is. ;-)
But then again, what do I know? I'm just a dumb guy. ;-)
rich
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
Rich wrote: (SPOILERS) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27
They were afraid that if they went out with them anywhere, even somewhere as innocuous as a diner, they would be treated to an evening of fending off their crude advances. Unfair, perhaps, but they DID like Upchuck and did good Upchuck impersonations. Maybe more sophisticated and socially competent girls would have taken this in stride, but we're talking about Jane and Daria here ... smart as anything, but not what I would call masters of the Game.
Brittany manipulated events so that in the end she got what she wanted. She's smart compared to Kevin. (Ok, not much of a contest).
O'Neill actually cares, he's just ineffectual. He's the parody of the well-meaning liberal.
Upchuck's immature. There's still hope for him, though not a lot.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
I totally agree with you! He reminds me of my ethics teacher who's always stuttering because he wants to make sure everything he says is politically correct. Like "I don't want to say that the drawing is bad...i mean, i really don't...but i think you can work harder..that is to say I don't mean you haven't worked hard.." you see what I mean? JoJo aka Athena :-) �And the day came when the risk it took to remain tight inside the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.�-Anais Nin "I can be jello"-My Best Friend's Wedding 'cause no one suspects....the butterfly!-Bart Simpson
paperpusher wrote in message ...
Understandable? Perhaps, but I'm not going to defend in Daria what I wouldn't in someone else. How would she like to be judged on the basis of Quinn, who's much more closely related? As they say, you can't pick your relatives. That they might actually like Chuck isn't so horrible either; his most offensive trait is his come-on, and as fellow males they wouldn't be "subjected" to it. Other than that Chuck might even be interesting -- he makes a good DJ, for example. Strangely, the girls seemed even more eager to get away from the cousins than they usually do from Charles, so maybe Daria (or the writer) was just looking for a reason to dump the guys and stay uninvolved, but IMO they picked a poor one.
Intelligence relative to *Kevin,* though that's still not much in an absolute sense. See Jordan's post.
I wasn't thinking about the portrayals of the males individually as much as how they compare in male/female relationships. Think about it, in every recurring "couple" the female member is *always* shown as the more dominant and/or intelligent one. The classic example is Helen and "back-up singer" Jake, but it shows in all the rest too. Quinn's clearly in control of her harem, ("Robert, you like sitting at the end of our table, right?" "Yes Ma'am!") and compared to them, even she looks clever. In the Barch-O'Niel pair it's just as clear that only she's got the nerve to dominate (this ep. is a perfect example), and as for Jodie & Mack, we've seen very, very little of them together, but we do know she's the honors student, etc. while Mack is worrying about his Ethics tests, so I have to give her the intelligence edge. Now Brittany and Kevin, who initially seemed to really deserve each other, are following suit. Her power over him, which looked shaky way back in #106, was solidified in #202 and #210 as he grows increasingly dim-witted ("I'm sure we don't take a highway to school, babe." "Are you *sure*?" "Um, no.") and she increasingly capable of exploiting it. Since there aren't any other recurring "couples" this makes it unanimous: females rule and males . . .errr, dont't!
(I'll ignore the D/T "thing" as it's merely a "potential" relationship)
Wait a minute, if the show was about a teenage guy would that justify portraying all females as being in submissive relationships to males? That doesn't sound like a good excuse to me. And isn't "Daria," unlike many teen shows, NOT from a teen's POV? Daria's not our narrator in these stories, she never addresses the audience, and we don't just follow her around, so I don't see how it's from a "teenage" POV unless the writers have "teenage" minds. . .
<big snip of good analysis of males' characters>
As always, -- BB
B.B. England said:
(SPOILERS) . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Very good point. Yes, Daria and Jane were being unfair. Then again, they're hardly perfect, or even very good at dealing with other people. They are basically misfits, remember.
Very true. Chuck's highly intelligent, and if he didn't constantly come on to girls they might actually like him.
[email] (JBassior) wrote:
Look, based on Upchuck's prior behavior (#107-- reptilian, #205-- reptilian, #307-- reptilian), why in the hell should anyone be subjected to him if they don't want to have to be subjected to him? It's not "unfair" to choose not to be forced to hang out with someone you don't like, it's reality-- do you hang out with your more annoying co-workers? (I'm guessing no.) Would you date one of their cousins if you met the cousin in a bar and found out that s/he was related to that co-worker? Especially, if it meant overexposure to that annoying co-worker? I'd bet on "no," again. It's not being unfair, it's being realistic-- when you date someone, like it or not, you've got to deal with the family. :-)
Besides, lest we forget, they're teenagers, fercrissakes!
Well, I'll withhold commenting on Upchuck, but saying that he makes a good DJ isn't necessarily a ringing endorsement of his character, just his ability to gauge a crowd's taste in music, and his ability to introduce songs in a *very* cheesy manner. ;-)
Upchuck's also shown his true colors in that he's as manipulative and untrustworthy as anyone-- (again, see #107 and #205)-- until I see a different portrayal of Lawndale's "Ricky," I wouldn't presume otherwise-- that would only be speculation, and I'd *never* engage in speculation. ;-)
agreeing to disagree (what else is new) rich
Tiffany: "Oh, no. Wind, hair."
In article ,
Agreed. My point wasn't that they shouldn't have tried to avoid hanging with Upchuck if they didn't want to, just that what they were doing was one of the things they are so critical of Quinn and the fashion club for. It's hypocritical. They were shallow for this one moment. There's nothing wrong with it, everyone has their moments.
Thinking about this, wouldn't Daria have some sort of fascination with Upchuck, if he wasn't as intelligent as he is (in much the same way she hung around B&B- just to see what they would do)? I mean he has a large potential for creating humerous situations that Daria would enjoy- he just may be too smart, in her eyes. His intelligence maybe part of what turns her off to him (aside from his personality, but he looks like a saint next to B&B).
Mike Quinn [email] "...the race is long, and in the end it's only with yourself..."
Mike Quinn said:
1) Daria hung around Beavis and Butthead because she didn't have any friends, near as I can figure it. Now she has Jane. It's a lot more fun to hang out with a friend than with someone you merely tolerate for their amusing behavior.
2) Beavis and Butthead never focused any of their harmful action on her; from what I can interpret of their bizarre behavior they perceived her as a friend, and were satisfied with chanting "Diarrhea" at her. She's quite understandably worried that if she hung out with Upchuck she'd be constantly fending him off.
3) Upchuck is too smart to let Daria manipulate him the way Daria was able to manipulate Beavis and Butthead. It might work once or twice, but as soon as Upchuck figured out what she was doing he'd be her enemy, rather than dupe.
4) I think you're right that Upchuck's intelligence is "part of what turns her off to him" ... not that he's intelligent, but that he's intelligent and yet acts like such a fool. Maybe Daria sees him as more responsible for his conduct than, say, Kevin is.
5) Besides, Daria's maturing ... hanging around with someone who acts idiotic just to laugh at him is unwise (B&B *might* have hurt her one day, despite her ability to outwit them) and ultimately pointless (why waste time on someone you don't really like).
Incidentally, Chuck really likes Daria, but as long as he remains "Upchuck" he doesn't have the chance of a snowflake in Hell.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
In article ,
I hadn't thought of that, it amkes a lot of sense.
I'll give you that one. She was their spectator more than anything. She would be more "involved" around Upchuck.
Daria musn't realize this or she would have done that by now (unless Upchuck bothers his enemies more that those he likes).
I guess I was refering to Upchuck's brand of intelligence as what turns her off. I don't think intelligence by itself is a deterant for Daria (I'm sorry if this sounds contradictory to my previous post).
Point well taken.
You're definately right.
Mike Quinn [email] "...the race is long, and in the end it's only with yourself..."
Since I've only watched a few B&B episodes, and only a couple with Daria that I can really recall...did she really hang out with them the way she hangs out with Jane? Or was it a matter of her just happening to be around when they were up to something (i.e. when she went to the sporting goods store on an assignment for the school paper at the same time they were trying on their tiny "athletic supporters")?
Joe asked:
More the latter. She wasn't really Beavis and Butthead's "friend", nobody was. But she often popped in on them to see what they were doing, laugh at them, and sometimes try to help them figure things out (this never worked, B&B's thickness was impenetrable). On their part, B&B must have basically liked her; they called her "Diarrhea" but never tried to really hurt her in any way. Let's say that they were friendly acquaintances.
Her relationship with Jane is on a whole other level. Jane is a best friend, a soulmate, someone she sometimes trusts enough to reveal her core self to. That kind of friendship is a totally different thing from the amusement she derived from hanging out with a pair of idiots.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
I more or less agree, but I think there is possibly another side to it. Daria and Jane are pretty selective about who they spend time with. From what I recall of the episode, there was a little more involved than the two boys simply saying they were related to Upchuck. They said something about liking to hang out with him, or momentarily emulated him. That by itself might have been enough to eliminate them from consideration. After all, in the past, Daria had made pretty quick judgements on people before. Of course, the blood tie to Upchuck probably was a major prejuducial element.
It's hard to say, since Daria doesn't run into too many smart people. She quickly got sick of the brainy clique at that private school, and commented more about them than she does about the Fashion Club, which suffers from the same personality defect. It could be that her standards for intelligent people are higher.
On the other hand, Chuck's personality might be the only factor she's concerned with. Daria doesn't run into many guys like him. The only other guy as unrestrained as him (that I can recall) is Tommy Sherman, the now deceased football hero. Daria took an instant dislike to him as well. All of the others have been relatively neutral towards her, except for the occasional confusion by Joey, Jeffy, and Jamile ("That's Jamie!").
B. B. England said: (SPOILERS) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Daria didn't want to get involved in the whole dance party; Jane dragged her there. Daria generally looks for excuses to avoid being involved with people in general, especially guys. Jane, who is impulsive and generally follows any strong leader, was following Daria's lead here; the only reason she dragged Daria there in the first place was because she was proud of her art and wanted to see how others reacted to it.
This is true. It may reflect Daria's pov, or more likely that among teenagers, girls mature more quickly than boys and hence tend to dominate the social scene.
But what we are shown is governed largely by what is relevant to Daria. For example, were Lawndale HS and the environs depicted from Andrea's pov we might get a very different picture of people, especially Mack and Jodie.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
[email] (JBassior) wrote:
That's what I was trying to say, unfortunately, I just didn't get it across clearly-- e.g., a show based on Kevin's World would have a different POV as well, even though he's not serving as narrator, we'd be viewing *his* world. (Which, I'd assume, involves regular blunt traumas to the head.) ;-)
rich.
Jake: Who do you want in an emergency? Superman, or your *damn inner child?*
I don't think there are any real spoilers. paperpusher wrote in message ...
Okay, now I'm certain we're speaking different languages -- I read and used "POV" in the conventional literary sense (1st,2nd,3rd-person), and "Daria" is clearly a 3rd-person omniscient or "objective" POV by that system, but both of you seem to be using the word in a non-standard manner -- roughly equivalent it to the conventional meaning of "tone?"
I like the fact that "Daria" isn't just another 1st-person piece of teen- directed entertainment like "Saved by the Bell" or "Clarissa" or "Ferris Buhler." (ever notice how much more common 1st-p. is in teen shows as opposed to "adult" programmes? I suppose they use it as a device to aid escapist identifications, which are less common in adults) By not limiting themselves to any teen's perspective the writers are free to make comments you'd need to be older to catch. Also, by not taking the POV of a particular character they also spare us the defects of that character's perception, and I prefer to make my own appraisals from objective observations
What might be happening now is the writers are changing the objective nature of the Lawndale reality in order to appeal to the teenage prejudices presumed to be found in their audience. Jake isn't portrayed as clueless *because* that's how Daria sees him, as though "objectively" he doesn't really play with his food, since the show's POV *is* objective, and not 1st-person. But on another level you could say Jake is -- was created -- that way because the writers were trying to appeal to the teenage mentality of their viewers, frequently assumed to enjoy "clueless parents" (see above teen shows).
As for "Kevin's World," yes, in giving us additional information about Kevin in situations not covered by "Daria" it would affect our holistic picture of his character, but not much. If "KW" was 3rd-p like "Daria" then all overlapping scenes would be identical and Kevin would still act stupid. Unless, of course, the objective reality of the show was altered to appeal to the presumed "KW" audience, but then it's not about "Daria"'s Kevin anymore and so doesn't count. (Hmm, it could be interesting to actually do a "KW," as a sort of "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead" for "Daria." Or maybe not... ;)
As always -- BB
B. B. England pointed out:
Yes, this is true. But it's also true that most of what is shown is that part of the action significant to Daria; though she's not telling the story in 1st person she is still the character around whom all the stories either rotate or who personally knows the character who the story rotates around.
Possibly. Though from my experience the hardcore teenage Daria fans are anything but "typical" teenagers. The show tends to appeal most strongly to the kind of sensitive, thoughtful, intellectual teens who are repelled or unimpressed by a lot of what adults presume to be "teenage" culture. Teens similar in many ways to Daria, or Jane, or Andrea.
I think the show suggests that Jake is severely neurotic, with some episodes approaching mild psychosis.
"Mack" might be a much more interesting show. You know there's more going on in there than he reveals to the outside world.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
That would be something I'd like to see. Kill a few of the fanciful episodes and replace them with stories from the point of view of another character. I'd rather see "Mack" or "Jodie" than "Depth Takes a Holiday."
<Just a little off the top...>
Speaking of Mack, I was disappointed to hear the frog-voice returning from #307. Guess it's another Brittany-voice type thing... <sigh>
Hmmm... although our Daria has her place, Quinn does also, and I think it's important to develop the minor characters as well as the major ones, to add an even further degree of realism to the show.
As always, IMHO, -Mindy