This was a really good episode, an absolute keeper. There was almost nothing I could find wrong with this episode. Yes, it had the 'shipper element about it, but I don't think that should blind us to the overall quality of this episode. The 'shipper bit worked amazingly well, and I found myself feeling for Daria when she saw Trent with Monique. The only bit I find mildly disturbing was the continuing putting-down Jake jokes, which are perfectly fine, don't get me wrong.. I just think they're a bit overdone by now.
I had to explain this to my friend, so I thought I'd reiterate it here just in case some of you weren't paying full attention to the episode (which I highly doubt!). When Daria said "I think I just got over something" after she had that fantasy sequence of Trent ending up being a complete bum (as compared to the semi-bum he is now), I sincerely thought "Oh boy, so she got over him. Wow." And then, right at the very end, when Trent made that oh-so-anticipated statement of wishing Daria were older so that they could "go out together" Daria had another fantasy sequence. This time, it was an optimistic one, with Trent saying "You're the best thing that's ever happened to me." Then Daria says "Damn." I think this clearly shows that she renewed her crush for him at that point. A bit of debate over this might ensue later on I suppose, of whether she really did get over him in the first place etc but this was the gist of what I got.
It was a little ironic that Jane and Trent were the most "normal" or "sane" amongst their not-so-little dysfunctional family. If I recall, I remember someone in this ng awhile back mentioning that the male characters in "Daria" tend to be much weaker than the female ones. Well I think the Lane family is clearly attest to this. Wind was a complete weakling, failing at all his relationships. The father seemed alright, but not really significant. Only Penny and Summer seemed to be headstrong characters. Amanda had the typical let-it-be attitude which finally resulted in an unruly household.
Amazingly, by the intervention of the two Lanes, the Morgendoffers managed to accidentally pull their family together just for a while. Both Helen and Jake used Jane to get to know Daria a little better, which was quite a motherly/fatherly thing to do IMHO. And did anyone else notice that Quinn wanted a little of Helen's attention once she started to lecture Trent on the rules of the household? I think Quinn actually does realize that the rules of the household means that her parents really care about her well being.
See? There was so much more to this episode than that Daria/Trent thing :) This is one episode I'll be watching over and over again.
It was really, really sad when she was standing by the window hugging herself. They've *never* shown Daria with that kind of expression on her face. Not even when other people have humiliated her in public. She's normally too proud for that. Trent gets right through all her defenses.
Oh ... also note that Jane revealed a couple of her motives for wanting to get Daria and Trent together. (1) She doesn't think that Monique is good for Trent (she's probably right), and (2) she would like her best friend, who's probably the only person aside from Trent she's ever loved and trusted, to be her sister for real.
I agree. Jake must have at least once been intelligent and admirable for Helen to have loved him; treating him as a complete idiot is either tragic (if you assume he's declined a lot) or just plain unreasonable (if he was always like this why did Helen love him in the first place?)
Some points:
What just happened was that Daria finally confronted Trent's flaws. Trent being lazy and irresponsible at 21 is funny ... Trent being the same way at 41 would not be quite as funny.
If Daria were to get involved with Trent, and he did not mature, things might turn out pretty much like in the fantasy. Daria would use her intelligence and work hard to make enough money to support both of them; Trent would loaf around with vague dreams of future success; and ultimately she would wind up bound to him by children, whom he would probably fail to be a good parent to. (The fact that in her fantasy they weren't actually married, not out of Trent's malice but rather his laziness, was the fnal comic touch).
The fantasy does demonstrate something I've always thought about Daria, namely that she's actually "old-fashioned" in her romantic expectations, thinking in terms of a permanent, monogamous marriage. Which I always thought based upon her own family background.
Of course, things wouldn't really work like in the first fantasy. What Daria doesn't grasp (due to her naivete about relationships) is that if she were involved with Trent, and he continued to be as careless and lazy as he is, she would wind up becoming furious at him, frequently. They would ultimately grow to hate each other, and part, probably with extreme bitterness. They would hurt each other a LOT.
Well ... that's the "I can change him" fantasy. It can be a dangerous one ... people can't really be changed by others (at least outside of the context of brainwashing) ... at most they can be guided and assisted in the process of changing themselves. People (especially ones of any per
Daria would indeed be "the best thing that ever happened" to Trent, if he accepted her help and changed himself. Would he, though?
Hard to say. Right now, probably not, which is what I mean when I say that TRENT has a lot of growing up to do before he's emotionally old enough for Daria. Some of Daria's growing up was done in this very episode, when she acknowledged that a couple could have problems beyond the "happily ever after" (heh, especially if the groom fails to make the wedding cause he falls asleep!) :)
I do note that Jake and Trent seemed to really like each other in this episode ... it backs up my theory that they are essentially similar personality types. Which is good for the shippers in two ways, because (1) Jake would trust Trent with Daria, and (2) Daria's attraction to Trent makes a lot of sense if he is in some ways a 90's version of Jake. (She does love her parents, much as she tries to hide it). It also explains why Jake and Trent were acting like buddies in "Daria!" (the episode right after this in production order).
Jake misses his youth (much of which was ruined by his father), and talking to Trent probably makes him happy because it lets him pretend to be a kid again. Trent is technically an adult (21 or 22), but Trent's maturity level is that of a teenager, I'd say around 17 (which is ironic, because Daria, who is 17, has the maturity of a young woman of 21 or so!). Jake, if we recall, was not a happy camper at 17.
It was also interesting to see Trent's reaction to Helen. She certainly annoyed him, but he seemed almost glad to be nagged by her (and he submitted to her authority without protest). I think he actually likes her ... especially the fact that she seems to care what happens to him. (As opposed to his *real* mother's attitude).
Trent says that it's too bad that Daria isn't a few years older, or they could date. He makes a joke out of it (the whole laugh-cough bit), so we're really not sure how he feels. Considering that he just had a four-hour breakup with Monique, and that some of the most pleasant parts of his evening were probably hanging out with Jake and Daria, he may actually be serious. It's hard to tell.
Which brings us back to Trent's motivations. Again, I don't think that Daria's age really IS the issue: given that Daria is now close to 18, and that both her parents clearly approve of him, Daria's age is in fact no obstacle to their relationship (it was just barely one last year). (Jake likes Trent, Helen is probably just glad to see Daria showing an interest in ANY guy: "Sex ... no, that's OBVIOUS! Can I have another one?", and I think she recognizes Trent's inherent decency despite his pose ... maybe I'm not the only one who sees his emotional resemblance to the teenaged Jake).
If Trent thinks about it at all (which is hard to say), it's possible that he too has had a fantasy about Daria ... and that it wound up more like the first one than the second. In my opinion, Trent recognizes that he is not living up to his potential, and dislikes himself for it. He clearly has a high opinion of Daria (shown in many episodes, and the *J17* interview) and maybe he would rather not burden Daria with a loser like himself. Remember, Trent's example of a positive male-female relationship is of his protectiveness towards his sister ... a model which predisposes him to behave self-sacrificingly towards any female he genuinely cares for.
Yep. Though perhaps she's more realistic about it now. And again, considering how well she knows him after a year of friendship, I don't think it's just a "crush" anymore. I would call it unrequited love.
They keep each other sane. Jane gives Trent someone to make an effort for, and Trent is Jane's positive male role model and protector (certainly her normally-absent father is not!). Without each other, they would be a lot more self-destructive.
That's true.
Irritatingly so. Though he may be better company when his wife hasn't just dumped him.
Totally self-absorbed.
"Headstrong", rather than "strong" in a positive sense. Penny's a nasty crank (kind of like Helen gone bonkers) and Summer a domineering but inept mother.
That's how her family wound up the way they did in the first place, one must assume.
Yep. They both really care, although they are not very competent about it. It's interesting, by the way, that Jake can't even remember the AGES of his daughters ...
Heh, jealous of the "new kid" ...
Yes. And I think that Quinn has actually benefitted a lot from knowing that her parents care about her. Among other things, it's probably why she's a tease instead of a genuine tramp.
Did you notice the difference between the way Amanda and Trent perceived the tent story? Amanda thought that it was cute and just let him do what he wanted. Trent perceived it as meaning that nobody cared about him enough to want him back home. And did you also notice that he was minded of this when Helen imposed rules on him? I think that this actually made Trent like Helen a lot ... because he realized that even though he wasn't her son, she cared what happened to him.
I'm going out on a limb here to say that I think that Daria's affection for Trent is idiotic. It's the only thing about Daria (the show) that I don't agree with.
As hyper-critical and cynical as Daria (the person, uh, the character) is, I don't think she'd feel that way about Trent. IMHO he seems to have similar character traits as some of Lawndale High's "finest"...the Fashion Club, Kevie, Quinn's Himbos, etc., and Daria doesn't exactly adore any of them!
I think that's exactly the point. No doubt about it, Daria IS special: smart, honest, thoughtful, and--beautiful (I think so). She'd be a perfect match for someone of somewhat similar traits, someone sort of like, well...ahem...uh...me. <G> But instead she's attracted to someone who's very much unlike her. Now isn't that just how things seem to work? Opposites attract? Daria's a teenage girl, not Nelson Mandela. She's a brain but she has feelings, emotions, and a sex drive (brains do, you know). Just like any teenage girl, she is sooner or later going to think about romance--and Trent is handy. (Actually I notice that most girls seem to start thinking about romance at about age 3 and are quite frustrated that the boys don't until about 10 years later.) And, of course as I'm sure we all know, the brain pretty much stops working once romance enters the picture. I'm quite certain that at some point Daria is going to acknowledge that this is only a limerent attraction and will move on to a REAL romance with a real, attainable man, but for now I suspect this is just about the right relationship for her. It gives her a chance to explore her feelings without any real risk--love with training wheels. I find the whole thing quite plausible.
Oh yeah, I can see that but I have trouble turning my brain off to go to sleep; so anything remotely resembling romance sends me in to Severe Overthink Mode. Well, I guess is as paralyzing as not being able to think at all.
As do some boys, until they learn that such are "girlish" thoughts and get one beat up by ones peers if they find out. Even if they do think about such things, they almost never know how to handle it. With girls, it often results in verbal abuse of their favorite boy, while boys often use physical abuse to keep themselves in their favorite girl's mind. *Sigh* IMHO things were much easier when schools weren't coed.
Actually, it seems that most boys start thinking about sex. Romance isn't a concept a hormone-charged mind handles well.:)
I went to a non-coed school and I would be lying if I said it didn't screw me up a little bit. However we did have our sister school next door but I hardly mingled with them until I got to take French III over there. I thanked the Almighty for a whole year that my school didn't offer French III. The only thing that I felt was overly odd about high school was the fact that half the cheerleaders for our football team (of which I was a member) actually attended our rival school.
Yeah? Too bad. Several of my screwups can be traced back to co-ed schooling. (More to school in general, but that's another story.) It's not the fault of all the girls, it's just that their presence tended to lower the already low IQs of my so-called male "peers".
Well, I do know it works the other way around too. Studies have been done and prove that girls who attend co-ed high schools are less likely to have high grades in traditionally "male" subjects like math and science than girls who attend single-gender high schools. And not only that, but also girls who attend single-gender schools have higher overall test scores than girls who attend co-ed schools. This is for American girls, mind you. And yes, these are actual results from actual studies. I believe the hypothesis given is that during the high school years, teens are more apt to wanting peer approval, and in such a situation that introduces members of the opposite sex, this approval is more wanted with the such members. Thusly, girls who are afraid to be "unpopular" with the boys shy away from answering questions in classes traditionally deemed the domain of males, such as math classes and computer courses. This in turn makes them more reluctant to ask intelligent questions in class, leaves them less enthusiastic about the courses, and halts their ability to absorb more information, thus leaving them behind forever. Only females who couldn't care less (like Daria, for example) about their popularity amongst males could possibly make it through that type of environment.
I do know something else too...I'm more than glad to have gone to an all-girls' school. I wouldn't have it any other way. Especially since we had uniforms to wear. A lot of our troubles in school could be solved by students of all ages having to wear uniforms.
Hmm... could part of the reason for this be that single-gender schools are all private or parochial? Speaking as someone who went to an all girl catholic school, I know they demanded a higher standard academicly--and those that couldn't make the cut were outta there faster than you could say "plaid skirt." My ex-school *and* the all male equivalent always had the highest SAT scores in the county, but I believe this is because they both attracted a type of student who was somewhat serious about learning. ((Of course, if you were just a casual observer of their everyday behavior, you might be inclined to think differently... but the facts speak, I guess...))
Then there's the educational difference between public and private schools. A lamentable gap, but it exists just the same. :-/
And actually I agree with the other hypothesis as well, to a certain extent. I think it's just as important a reason why girls often don't do as well as the guys in those other classes. I saw it happen during the year I went to public high school. Quite sad really.
I suppose what I'd really like to know is what sort of schools these studies were comparing. If it was private to private, then I suppose that neatly negates my observations above. :->
And that's a whole other can o' worms I'm still too groggy and sleepy to deal with now. :-)
--J.... getting ready to drag herself to class... although having a first class at 11:45 is NOT that bad, heh heh.
No, something that has been found to work in the UK is teaching boys and girls separately within mixed sex schools, and this improves the girls' marks. I think this probably gives the best of both worlds, as boys and girls can mix during break time etc. However, ISTR it has also been found that if they truly mix the classes so that boys are made to sit next to girls, the boys do better than if they were taught in the normal way or in a single sex class. There could be various reasons for this though.
Weren't trenchcoats a sort of "uniform" in a certain American school? Maybe our resident mafia member Mindy could comment on the pros and cons of such a uniform.
School uniforms are the norm in Commonwealth countries--check out any UK, Aussie or Canadian children's tv series for examples. I think it probably reduces the amount of fashion competition and ostracism on the basis of appearance, but as for general attitude I doubt it has any impact.
Canadian? Not in my part of Canada - I've been to several schools and I've never seen a uniform, for either teachers or students. I often got very odd looks for the fact that I wore a sweater over a shirt, as opposed to a t-shirt like all the other kids (and some of the teachers) were wearing.
Well, nothing's going to fix the attitude problems until parents wise up and teach their kids respect for other people, but a uniform will at least level the playing field for stuff like fashion - "all the *cool* kids wear LaFraude designer jeans!" and all the other ugly ways to pick easy targets just by looking at their clothes.
I was going by the fact that they wear uniforms in the Adventures of Shirley Holmes, I don't know about in real life. I can't think of any other Canadian TV series offhand.
Canada appears to be an exception, perhaps the American influence. School uniforms for boys and girls are the norm in countries like Engand, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and so on. See:
This has hardly anything to do with anything, but in high school I used to wear a black trenchcoat to school almost every day. And so did several of my friends. Remarkably, none of us were racist psychopaths and we didn't shoot anybody!
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:06:16 -0700, "Jessica L." wrote:
I have the working theory that US public schools are not primarily educational, but social, in the major cities especially. Students are often from radically divergent backgrounds, and may have moved four or more times before graduating high school. This means that there is little support for social development in the community. Parents cannot be depended upon to properly brainwash - sorry, socialize - their offspring, as they are usually to occupied with economic matters. Thus the school is the only constant in the students lives - move from town to town, school to school, it doesn't change much. What's more, they have the students at their mercy, at prerequisite for any sort of brainwashing. Finally, since the students usually make friends wihtin their own school, the school becomes the whole of the student's social horizon.
As a result, any 'adjusted' (i.e., tranquilized and acceptable) student learns how to behave in school. And usually little else.
On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:51:19 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (First Speaker Schol-R-LEA;2), and it said:
This is hardly a new theory, though I haven't seen it expressed this way. One complaint against the public school system that is commonly voiced (particularly by conservative voices) is that they spend far more effort on "socialization" than "education." I've read quite a bit about the "touchy-fealy" hypothesis based so-called psychology crap that the education schools force feed to prospective teachers. The better teachers generally just ignore this crap and decide to teach the way they want to teach. The others end up wondering why they have so many discipline problems.
i've heard that too... a primary school teacher of mine tried to get me to go to an all-girls secondary school, and iirc she used this as a reason for why i'd be better not going to a mixed school.
imo, while a girl may benefit academically from going to a single-gender school, it's not good for her socially, ie it'll take her longer to learn to interact with guys... she may even see them as a 'forbidden fruit' of sorts. going to a mixed school, you get to see in painful detail how pathetic most guys are. ;)
the uniform rules seem to be more strict at my school than at the local all-girls school. i see these girls on their way home from school, with tight skirts barely covering their arses. we had to wear pleat skirts at my school... eughh, ugly. but at least everyone looked equally crap. :)
agreed. in the uk almost all schools have uniforms. my school occasionally has non-uniform days, and they were hell. i was singled out as a "goth" and accused of witchcraft after one non-uniform day, because (!!!) i was wearing BLACK nail polish!! <shocked gasp>
Not to drastically change the subject to something semi-regional, but this vaguely reminds me of a story I saw on TV or read in the news paper about a flock of 'killer' geese in Deptford NJ that almost pecked a five year old boy to death. One of the local radio stations is going to send an intern in a 'bread-suit' to see if they can provoke the crazy flock. I wonder if that intern just drew the short straw ;)
And then they trapped Tippi Hedren in a telephone booth. ;-{)> Speaking of
which, I was watching the Spanish-dubbed version of "The Birds" (a.k.a. "Los
P�jaros") on TV the other day. Kind of weird, a la "That doesn't sound
*anything* like Suzanne Pleshette!" :-{)> But interesting.
And I rented, but have yet to watch, "Marnie" today. I suppose I'll get up
early tomorrow morning and watch it.
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
make GEORYN disappear to reply
"Siento que debemos saber para el sue�o de qui�n brillar� esta luz o consagrar una propia estrella" --Alberto Felici
N.P.:"Le Ch�teau Fou"- G a r d e n W a l l / T h e S e d u c t i o n o f M a d n e s s
You're so right. And how I hate it when I lose control. Usually I keep my real thoughts hidden behind a mask of sarcasm and indifference much like Daria but when I'm in love it sometimes just collapses. Heartache has some nice side effects though. I get inspired to write poems and I like that (I haven't written a poem about Daria, yet, though. Maybe later). MSB
On 15 Jul 1999 22:01:44 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (Ariel1099), and it said:
Well, let me quote Daria in "Gifted": "Look, I'm too smart and too sensitive to live in a world like this with a sister like mine." Daria's cynacism is more of a defense, than her primary character trait. I think she _does_ care about people, but too much, and frets too much over things she can't change. So, to avoid going insane (which is what happens to people like her if they can't find a defense or an outlet), she turns inward, toward cynacism.
As far as Trent's simelarities to "Lawndale's Finest" go, I couldn't disagree more.
Kevin? The dude's a jock, and a dumb one, at that. Trent might not always seem to be the most observant person on the planet, but he's still smarter than Kevin. A slug is smarter than Kevin. And I've never noticed any particular *dislike* of Kevin on Daria's part, though who could resist a joke or two about him, or Brittney, for that matter?
The Fashion Club. Better handle them one by one:
Sandi: She is just plain manipulative, vicious, haughty. All of these traits are the *precise* oposite of what Trent is: unconcerned about the actions of others, not very ambitious, and about as far from "haughty" as anyone can get.
Staci: She'll say _anything_ to get people to get along, and is very dependent on the approval of others, to a pathetic degree. I can hardly see Trent allowing others to influence his actions unduely... indeed, his lifestyle definately reflects this.
Tiffany: Also devious, dumb, a "yes girl." Trent? Um... no.
JJJ: Have you *ever* seen Trent bounce around the most popular girl, groveling for a scrap of attention? The only thing they have in common is maleness, and that, just barely...
The person Trent is most comparable to is Jane, understandably. They are both artists, they are both a bit lazy (Jane could do better than straight "C's" in math, though Trent is a bit more than "a bit" lazy), they are both _very_ different from the norm.
I picked up on that a long time ago, and it showed up in "Trent's Adventures In LA-la Land" and "Muerta Las Vegaquot;. The fondest wish Jane has is to have Daria as a "real" sister, because as you saw in this episode her "real" sisters are a pain in the ass.
I *HATE* the "Homer Simpson-ization" of Jake! Jake couldn't be as much of an oaf as the episodes make him out to be. Unfortunately the worst offender on this tip is Glenn Eichler himself...episodes like "Write Where It Hurts", "Daria!" "The Teachings Of Don Jake" and so on really portray Jake as a buffoon. Hopefully next week's episode, "Jake Of Hearts" where Jake has his long-promised Heart Attack will be better.
buddies
"Daria!" is episode #307, "Lane Miz" is episode #308.
annoyed
I think Trent secretly wants a "regular" family.
to tell.
Perhaps that was a nervous, self-conscious laugh/cough rather than an attempt to make a joke.
I think that Trent pretty much *raised* Jane in the absence of their parents.
Jake is getting less and less essential as a meaningful part of nearly all of season three. I can't think of anything he has done this season that couldn't have been completely edited out. He is being delegated to the background and what we do see of him makes him look like an idiot. He is becoming even more unecessary than he was at the begining (they could replace him with a cardboard cut-out). At least we can take comfort in the fact that there haven't been entire episodes devoted to making him look like an imbicile, like there have been for Homer (although "Jake of Hearts" could be that episode, boy I wish that I didn't just make that connection; too scary).
I agree! Perhaps if he had a more structured childhood, he'd be a more responsible adult. I don't mean giving up music. From what I've seen, musicians never march to the same drummer as everyone else, but maybe he'd "wake up and do the laundry" occasionally.
interest
I think sex *is* an issue, albeit not the main one. Trent is already is in physically mature relationships and I don't see Daria rushing into anything like that. Trent wouldn't take advantage of his sister's best friend. And after seeing this episode, we now really know why the two youngest Lanes have bonded. And I do agree that he probably doesn't think he is worthy of Daria, so he wouldn't act on any desire for a relationship.
Trent takes his big brother role seriously, in a lazy way. In Daria! the Musical he came to the Morgendorffers out of concern for his Janey. And in Pierce Me he went to buy her a birthday present. After seeing Amanda in this ep., I doubt Jane received many birthday presents in her childhood.
Here's my take on the Lane family. First of all, most of them are artists. Visually or musically. Is Summer the oldest, since she apparently has 2 kids. They ran away to Grandma's house. Is Summer married? Wind continually looks for the attentive love he missed out in childhood by habitually marrying someone. Penny's reaction to hands-off parenting is a self-centered attitude. Note her call the the government regarding HER losses in the volcano. Mom loves her family, but feels people should just go their own ways without rules. Dad:???? So Trent and Jane raised themselves. He probably always protected her. And her family is why she has her tough shell. The Morgendorffers are normal by comparison.
Helen is a protective mother. Note her feminist outrage at supposed injustice in "It Happened One Nut" and standing up for Daria and Jane when they altered their painting and poem (forgot title of episode). She cares for Trent and Jane not only for themselves, but because they draw Daria out of her shell. Helen loves both of her daughters.
This was my favorite episode this season besides TALD. Great one!! Robyn
"And when she shines she really shows you all she can." --Duran Duran, Rio
"Well, then, you're already going to hell, so you might as well get the lenses; you'll see the brimstone better." --Amy Barksdale, Daria
On 15 Jul 1999 14:08:39 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
<plug>
In one of my probably-never-to-be-finished stories, I came up with an explanation for that as a side part of the plot. I only mention this because I am looking for external validation of my self-worth... er, I mean, critical response on how the story is going so far. If you want, it's the story titled "Father's Day" at http://www.slip.net/~scholr/fanfic/
I'm in a bit of a pickle with it in that parts of it have been invalidated by the newer episodes. Apparently, I was very wrong about Aunt Amy in particular, though I haven't actually seen TALD yet so I don't know how far off I am. I'm not sure I want to finish it as it is, but I can't think of a way to rewrite it, either. Any advice is appreciated.
On 15 Jul 1999 14:08:39 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (Jordan S. Bassior), and it said:
Hmm... that's really good.
Well, judging by the way the show has gone, he's gotten worse and worse as it's gone along. But, given the flashbacks, he's always been a little nutty, a little unobservant, a little nieve. She probably thought it was cute at the time.
Most definately not.
I think that that, along with Jake forgetting his daughters' ages, was just there to remind us this is a cartoon. I've noticed that, as the episodes come together better, they also tend to get a bit sillier at parts. I just hope they don't go overboard with this, especially with Jake. I'd really like it if he came to his senses, just once.
I think most people who have parents like this, and don't have an entire culture pushing to do otherwise (such as during the 1960's), tend to think this way.
I don't think Daria can "change" Trent. Nobody can *make* anyone else change; however, it is possible for the mere presence of someone else to cause someone to pick himself up and make the effort to change himself. One could hope that, given time, he could realize that he needs to do more than he's doing right now. Whether that means pulling some cash from his parents and attending a music school, giving him a better chance at success at his present dream, or just buckeling down and getting a *real* job (which, given his schedule of doing nothing most of the time, probably wouldn't cut *too* much into his music life). Just basically making a plan, then following it, would do the job. And the desire to become "worthy" of Daria might influence him to do this.
This little subplot is even better than the 'shipper plot, IMO. Both of them could benefit enormously from this relationship. Sometimes, I think half of Jake's problem is the fact that he never had a son of his own. Being able to prove that he won't repeat the mistakes of his own father just might help him to get over his childhood experiences. And Trent seems to lack _any_ older male influences; just having Jake there to talk to would probably do him a world of good. And...
This will also benefit him a great deal. He'll need Jake to help him deal with this, but if anyone can *make* Trent change, Helen is it. At the very least, some of her "take charge" attitude could filter down to Trent. Given the fact that her daughter is obviously interested in him, Helen definately has cause to try, besides the fact that, in general, the Morgendorffers are starting to consider the Lanes to be part of the family.
He meant it. Trust me on that. Indeed, the laugh/cough was probably to mask just how much he does like her. He does consider her young, however not young she might be, and the fact that she's Janie's best friend probably creates an even greater illusion of an age difference; it's hard to break away from thinking of your little sister as your "little sister."
Nope, you're not the only one. But you did comment on Trent's emotional immaturity earlier. He probably thinks of a four year age difference the same way he did when he was 17, if only subconciously. And there's always your next point:
As a guy about Trent's age, I can say it is difficult to date a girl who's either still in or just out of High School. We've already had a few years to figure things out; they have not. And it is _especially_ hard if we figure ourselves to be unable to support a family at the present time, which Trent clearly is unable to. Monique is different. He can just date her casually, and figure she knows what she's getting into. Considering the fact that they break up once a week (if I remember correcly), he's also not in that relationship for the long haul.
Toward a younger girl, however, he probably has sort of a... final feeling. Like if he's going to make a move for her, he's in it for the long haul. And if he can't haul the weight of a man (financially and emotionally speaking), he doesn't feel like he's ready for it.
Eh, she's still got a year or so to figure it out. The whole issue might turn out to be a moot point once she goes into college.
Amanda's attitude is an attitude that, while probably well meaning, just plain doesn't work. In nearly every situation, _somebody_ needs to be in charge, even if only a little. I learned that in OM (Odyssey of the Mind). Before we chose a "leader", our meetings frequently degenerated into mindless joke tournaments. Once somebody was designated "in charge," that person was able to say, "Okay, that's enough. Let's get back to work," without anyone else resenting it too much (after all, we did say he could do that...).
I think it's kind of the same in a family, though in the case of a family, the parents are in charge, by default, and need to make that clear. Some kids (like Quinn) may need a stronger hand keeping them in line than others (like Daria), but ultimately, _somebody_ needs to be the one "in charge," just in case it's needed. In the Lane household, Jane seems to be almost kind of taking that role, since Amanda has almost completely abdicated that role. She hardly has the life experience to do this confidently. Trent's lack of guidence is the result of Amanda's "let it be" style of parenting, along with the general absence of his father.
Overall, I'd have to say things are working out for the best, in both families. I'll continue watching simply to see if this optimism is well founded.
On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:44:28 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from Mike Quinn , and it said:
*Grumble* took me long enough to get that. Would somebody please tell me the *proper* english spelling? Or is that right... and Dianne's just bein' bastard? >;p
crank (kind of like Helen gone bonkers) and Summer a domineering but inept mother.
Just wanted to note a nice little bit of continuity here... Remember "See Jane Run"? Whats-her-face the gym instructor says of her former student Penny (I *think* it was Penny, anyway) that she "taught her a thing or two about the American competive spirit!" Jane immediately notes that perhaps that's why she spent the last 10 years out of the country. Well, whatever the reason, she apparently took some of that "competitive spirit" along with her... even if she's putting it to a rather absurd use.
Overall I was rather disappointed by the Lane family. Trent and Jane are close in a relaxed, mellow kind of way. I sort of expected the others in the family to be the same; instead we got more of the dysfunctional characters that are generally used as foils for Daria and Jane. And Jane's mom seemed like a near-carbon copy of Willow from "That Was Then..." Ah well. Guess that's why they've scattered to the winds... :]
Heh ... well, Penny's sufficiently self-centered that she treats a volcanic eruption as a personal insult delivered to her by the host nation and is actually asking for reparations from the government. Which, of course, makes most American business practices in the Third World look meek by comparison!
There have been hints as to the dysfunctionality of the Lane family scattered all through the earlier episodes though. And haven't you ever wondered just HOW Jane wound up as alienated as she is from pretty much everyone BUT Trent and Daria?
Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message news:[email]...
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I thought that scene, Trent & Monique in the foreground and Daria in the window above in the background, was unusually effective imagery. No words needed to be spoken. Just from the picture you could tell exactly what was going on and what was being thought. You don't commonly see such perfect composition in a cartoon scene.
get
Trent
probably
sister
There's a thought, the scene from "Gone With The Wind" where Melanie Hamilton tells Scarlett as she's marrying her brother, "Now we're truly sisters."
"Oh Scarlett, you grow lovelier by the day." "I will kill you, and bury your body in this dress."
Helen
you
like
Jake's no idiot. He's just a modern male who's been thoroughly browbeaten by the feminist propaganda. There's a lot of that going around these days. It's Helen who has changed. She's become quite assertive as she's "matured." There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but assertiveness has to be carefully managed, especially when around someone you care about. Assertiveness can be a dangerous weapon in careless hands.
Also, consider that Jake has spent the last 20 years or so in an female-dominated household. Nothing wrong with that either, lots of men manage it just fine, but imagine someone like Jake never having any relief from all the girly crap. He's probably ALWAYS extra careful to put the toilet seat down. That has to wear on you after a while. These feminists trying to break into men's clubs are missing the point: every once in a while a guy just has to leave the toilet seat up--just to release the tension.
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That's true. Too many women consider men to be "fixer-uppers." You have to select the best you can but you'll have to accept the flaws that aren't so serious you can't live with them.
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Well of course Trent could be the son Jake never had.
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I'm uncomfortable with the whole concept of "maturity level." It's really very subjective. It's not like you could really measure it. The test is whether you can function or not. If you can't get by without "mommy holding your hand" then you're immature. If you're young but can somehow manage, then you might be considered mature. Each situation will, of course, be different and everyone will exhibit different levels of maturity for different tasks. Someone might be mature enough able to hold down a job but unable to hold together a relationship.
Here's something to consider: compare/contrast Trent with Wind. Or are you a big unhappiness freak if you consider that it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all--loved and lost 2 or 3 times!? We might as well face it: The Lane family isn't dysfunctional. It's the LANES who are dysfunctional.
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I'm not sure that Trent would necessarily consider Helen to be a surrogate mother. I think it would be just as reasonable to assume that as a guest of the Morgendorffers that the courteous thing to do would be to acquiesce to the hosts wishes. If you were the guest of someone like Helen as an adult wouldn't you simply honor the hosts wishes? As a guest you have the option of leaving. You don't surrender your majority just by going along to get along.
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I disagree. The kids probably turned out so much like Amanda because of genetics rather than because of environment. Just look at this bunch: every one an artist of one kind of another. (waitaminit though. What about Wind?) Artists just don't thrive in a rigid, authoritarian environment. Amanda understands this and wanted to create the kind of home that would be conducive to a creative personality. There's no way that any of the Lanes would survive in a set-the-alarm-clock-and-punch-the-time-clock kind of world. Curiously, Daria and Quinn need a somewhat similar environment too. Daria is, of course, a creative writer. And Quinn--,"I'm like an artist, and this is how I express myself." For all the artists involved what would probably be best would be a balance between Helen's bureaucratic parenting style and Amanda's "country club" style. Holy cow, this analysis is starting to look like a management school case study.
It's
Actually not all that unusual from what I can see. Think about it for a minute though. If you had or do have kids and you were offered such a deal by their best friend what questions would YOU ask? Why? Is that really the most important question you can think of to ask of the oracle?
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I'm increasingly discovering how differently parents and children can perceive the same situation. One thinks, "Oh, how cute." and the other thinks, "How humiliating. I'll never live this down." How much easier life could be for everyone if a kid could explain to his/her parents why something was so unpleasant and if the parent could somehow harken back to their own childhood and understand what the kid is talking about. It's too bad they can never get together and compare their views, but of course this is something that simply cannot be.
At first, I thought he was just doing it to get his wife to leave so he could watch the game.:)
(Snip)
It's also obvious that that kind of thing has stuck with him - he told Jane where he was going to be (sleeping in "The Tank") but neglected to inform his mother of the same fact. (But then, Jane did the same thing. Those two are each other's only "real" family.)
Note that Jane simply vanishes from the perspective of the rest of the Lane family, and Trent is the only one who notices she is gone or feels that this is worthy of notice or action. You're right, Trent and Jane are each other's only "real" family.
I'm glad somebody mentions this. I've felt bad about this Daria-Trent relationship from the beginning because I've always had this feeling that it could only end in tragedy. Yes, they get along well and it probably would work well as long as they're just dating, but a lasting relationship would be difficult. Not because "permanent monogamous marriage" isn't Trent's thing. I actually believe he'd make a very faithful husband. He doesn't appeal to most women and he seems to care more about music than cheating on his wife. The problem would rather be his unreliability. I believe that one thing Daria absolutely insists on having is a functioning, orderly life. She doesn't like chaos, planning from moment to moment, waiting for the unexpected. She's a thinker, she doesn't just act on impulse. The most likely outcome of a Trent-Daria marriage would be a relationship like her and Kevin in "The Lab Brat". After some time she would have cut him out of all the important decisions and planning. She'd be running the house and everything else completely on her own. Sometimes Trent would make weak attempts to take some responsibility but he'd probably screw up (like Kevin when he ripped out that door) and Daria would send him off ("Why don't you go thinking about a new band name. I can fill out that tax return form myself."). From that point I see two possibilities: a) Trent, unlike Kevin, shows some sensibility. Even though Daria might not tell him directly, he'd probably realize very soon that he's a rusty wheel in the otherwise well-greased machine his smart wife has built. It would give him a very bad feeling, probably a mixture between guilt and anger (both towards himself and towards Daria). To make it short, I think he couldn't stand being married to a woman who runs and plans his life because she thinks that he's not up to the task (and is right about it). He'd leave her, both to get back his personal freedom and to not be in her way. b) Especially if they'd have kids, Daria might get the feeling that she (and the children) would be better off without an unemployed and unreliable musician around, who is like an additional kid, time-consuming and requiring constant tutoring. Maybe she'd even feel kind of used by him. She runs the house, raises the kids, earns the money and plans their whole life and he's just living for the day, fantasizing about the big hit he'll never make. With the romantic veil gone (happens soon after marriage, I hear) Daria would fall back to her rational self and come to the conclusion that their relationship just doesn't work out as planned and she'd best get a divorce.
No matter who makes the first move, I think the split-up would be mutual. They'd both agree that they'd made a mistake getting married and that they should've rather stayed just friends.
My impression is that Daria needs someone who is like her, who is content with living a boring and predictive live (of course Daria's live is not boring and predictive, but it would be if things worked out as Daria wants them to, she just gets into these adventures against her will, most of the episodes start out with something she opposes to and would not have had in the first place). Someone who is smart and mature. And especially someone who is as direct as her or at least understands her way of being. She's not an easy person to be with all the time. Someone who takes criticism too personal will not be happy with her. Which leads me back to Trent. Daria is always very careful about what she says when she's around Trent. That would surely cease after some time of living together and I don't perceive Trent as the person who just shrugs off sharp-tongued remarks about his character flaws (see a) above).
On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 02:02:37 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (Matthias Benkmann), and it said:
Well... like mother like daughter, I always say...
On the contrary, I think that Daria really needs someone that can draw her out of her shell. Jane does this, to a certain extent; she's become much more adventurous. Besides, there must be _some_ reason she likes him.
Actually, he usually just laugh/coughs and says, "Good one, Daria." She hit him once or twice during "Road Worrier," when she first slammed the band's name (and berated herself for letting it slip out). I think she said something else, as well, but I can't remember. At any rate, he thinks she's funny... which her comments are meant to be, if only half-jokes.
It could be a WORKING marriage, but would it be a HAPPY one. Look at Helen and Jake. What do they share? What do they talk about? What are their common interests? The only things I see are their daughters and occasionally sex. What kind of couple are they going to be in 20 years? No daughters around anymore. Nothing to talk about, probably no jobs anymore and somehow I don't think your sex life improves with age. They'll be two bitter old people. They'd have been that way for a long time without their daughters, maybe their marriage would have broken up. I don't think Daria and Trent have more common interests than Helen and Jake. An interesting side note: There was a study I read about that said that I high percentage of people marry their parents in some way, meaning women very often marry men who are like their fathers and men very often marry women that resemble their mothers in some respect. Seems pretty logical. After all, your mother/father is the first person of the opposite sex you meet in your life. Every other person will be measured by that standard. MSB
On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:23:38 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (Matthias Benkmann), and it said:
Jake is in for some serious trouble when Helen hits menopause... >:)
LOL...unless Helen's menopause is one of the rarer ones that does not involve all the nasty side effects of "the change"....
As far as the original point goes...I thought sex was supposed to get better as people, most especially women, age. In fact, Joan Rivers was just on Oprah yesterday (yes, I had to watch it, Mom made me...you don't know about her guilt trips either) and she talked about how women's sexual engines get fine-tuned as we age and thus we're better able to handle the machinations, thus leading to a more pleasurable sex life in our older years.
I don't quite know about that (seeing as though I'm 20) but it does sound like a convincing argument. Besides, I'm up for it. I don't think life ends at 50 or 60 and so am actually kinda looking forward to those times. Would not have to worry so much about people looking askance at me if I choose not to openly look for acceptance from everyone I run into....
On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:44:44 GMT, [email] (Tarvok) wrote:
Hmm, I recall that priority list in "Pinch Sitter" Deena - Helen, Quinn is just being honest. You can't get anywhere unless we take a hard, honest look at what really matters.
Helen - 1. Get the spice back into my marriage.
I guess she'll stick with him for a feeling of responsibility. And besides, she may not share many interests with Jake, but I doubt it would be easy for her to find someone else who does at that age. Same goes for Jake of course. I guess they'll end up just sitting around not talking or doing much, waiting for their daughters to visit. Or maybe they'll end up doing nothing else than talking about their daughters. Looking at photos, reliving memories. You bet once they leave the house these two girls will have made a lasting impression on their parents :-) MSB
I think she loves Jake. Helen is a very attractive woman, and besides she has an office romance waiting to happen. If she really wanted to cheat on or leave Jake, she could do so quite easily.
Ah, but remember what they in fact did in "Road Worriers"? The moment that the kids were out of the house ... ?
On 27 Jul 1999 13:12:51 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
It's certainly one way to break through the glass ceiling.
And since "Road Worrier" aired after "Pinch Sitter," it looks like Helen did indeed find a way to "get the spice back into their marriage." :-)
Martin
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Yes. I think the "Damn" was short for "Damn, I wish I was a few years older".
If Daria were savvy, at this juncture she would go all out for Trent and wear him down by hanging around at his place fluttering her eyelids, making him cups of coffee, tuning his guitar etc. Sooner or later he'd be bound to give in on the "not old enough" thing if that's the only thing holding him back.
On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:26:25 +0100, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from Shez , and it said:
Nah, she'd just look stupid trying to play Quinn's game. Better to simply hang around the place (she has plenty of excuse, with Jane being there and all), attempt to just generally interact with him as much as possible, maybe not exactly flutter her eyelids, but make her interest in him, or at least what he has to say, obvious (nothing works better than listening to his stories, and his music, for that matter, and laughing at his jokes... nothing). He'll wear himself down, if she's patient.
I agree. Jake has his problems, and he definitely has Issues, but he's not Homer Simpson ... more like Hank Hill (only different).
My take on Jake is that he was an absolutely WONDERFUL daddy while the girls were tiny and precious, but he's suddenly realized that they're TEEN-AGERS, and he's completely freaked by that. Of course this episode pretty much blasted that out of the water.
Not that any of the above means that this wasn't one of the best eps ever.