Frankly I'm shocked he doesn't drive a Camaro or run a methlab. All Tom needs is a scraggly molester mustache to be total white trash.
Why would Daria date a mullet? Why would the writers even create such a flat, lame, one dimensional character? Daria jumped the shark when Tom came on.
Bernie
Bernie said:
Do you know what "white trash" is?
How is Tom "flat," "lame," or "one dimensional?"
Mind you, I'm not the world's biggest Tom fan. I don't like the way he treated Jane. But I don't even comprehend where your criticism of him is coming from -- if it's not just trolling.
wrote:
Sounds like a shipper to me.
Jeff M.
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
Most likely this person is a shipper who hates the idea of Daria dating anyone but Trent. However, I do think that due to Tom's late appearance in the series, he hasn't been as "developed" as Trent has been. Still, I don't see him as "flat", "lame", or "one-dimensional".
And I know what "white trash" is -- which makes Bernie's assessment of Tom all wrong on that score!
Belle Book
Belle Book said:
Hey, _I'm_ a shipper and a major Trent fan! :)
That's a good point.
Tom's only been in the series for around one and a half seasons plus the movie. IIRC, when Helen, Jake, and Quinn had been around that long they weren't all that "developed" either.
Right. Tom is rich, cultured, and quite decent. His flaw, IMO, is that he's too cold -- _not_ the classic profile of "white trash."
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...
anyone
see
movie.
all
Tom
he's too
Cold is a good term. I remember last fall I caught hell for sympathizing with Jane's behavior during Fire, DDMD, and IIFY.
My big problem with Tom was his treatment of Jane. She may have deserved some blame in the breakup but nobody should have went through what she went through.
It seemed like most people were so glad that Daria 'finally' got a boyfriend, no one seemed to care how it happened. Yes, I was VERY angry with Tom and VERY disappointed in Daria.
I guess you can call me an anti-shipper in the more broader sense. I don't like Trent/Daria, Tom/Daria, Jane/Daria or whatever weird little love match you can create for her.
Of course it's a moot point now since Daria IS going out with Tom.
Before DDMD, you could have also called me one of those quasi-Season One fans who liked the show the way it was; Daria and Jane against the world.
To a lesser degree that is no longer the case.
After the initial shock of DDMD and LOTS of soul searching I realized that Eichler and Company were going to let the girls grow up and away from us.
Daria and Jane couldn't stay the angry, cynical, 16 year olds forever. I understand this. That particular period is a major part of everyone's life. It's hard to let that part of yourself go. I must admit that sometimes, years later, I have to keep that part of myself in check from time to time.
That's probably the biggest overall appeal of the show. No matter what age you are now, you still identify with that side of yourself.
I've speculated that if Columbine never happened, and the characters on Daria never grew out of there Season One incarnations, Daria and Jane might have pulled a Harris and Kleibold and took out Lawndale High as the Series Finale.
Yes. I'll catch a lot of Hell for that statement but the show could have taken that road of being more nastier and cynical until Jane and Daria did something drastic. Or worse become like the Simpson's and instead of burning out they are content to just fade away.
Thank God they didn't!
I just went on a tangent here but love it or hate it Tom has totally changed the dynamic of the show. And I feel for the better especially since this is the show's last season.
People said that the 90's ended on December 31, 1999. To me the 90's ended with Tom and Daria kissing in that damn Pinto.
The aftermath of that kiss can be felt on all levels.
After watching the earlier episodes of Season Four it looked like the show was just limping along, with the same old tired plot lines that were done better in earlier seasons. To me, the Tom/Daria thing revitalized the series and renewed my interest in the show again.
Before watching DDMD I had stopped watching the show a year and a half earlier
Now it's Season 5 and the changes in Sandi, Quinn, Jane, and Daria alone are just extraordinary..
Wake up people, it's a brand new century...
Firah
While I doubt the writers ever would have come up with a Columbine-like finale, the show definitely would have become "nastier and more cynical" if they had tried to extend season 1 for four more seasons.
The Daria-Jane friendship has always had a dark side - that they feed each other's cynicism. (The bright side, of course, being that neither one had apparently ever had a real close friend before - and they did when they met each other). Having no outside friendships was not a good thing for them.
I think Daria has become MUCH less nasty since dating Tom - largely because Tom is so upbeat in his quiet way (rather ironic, considering that she was so nasty TO Tom when they first met). He didn't seem to have this effect on Jane, however, probably because Jane and Tom never really connected after their promising start.
M Man
Firah said:
Mmm ... my problem with his treatment of Jane is that when things started going sour, he made no real effort to salvage the relationship. He was just like "oh well, I'm getting bored," and treated Jane as disposable.
I see him as quite likely to treat Daria the exact same way if she becomes too difficult.
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...
went
going
"oh
Actually he did. If you watched 'Sappy Anniversary' he explained that he took Jane out to a fancy restaurant and a horse ride in the park to try and bring back 'that loving feeling'.
It didn't work obviously.
I can see where you would get that opinion because I got the same impression myself.
There were a few things that we weren't privy to in Season Four that are only starting to come to light in Season Five.
too
He's already done it a couple of times, in the aforementioned 'Sappy Anniversary and 'The Story Of D'.
He stopped calling or seeing Daria after she blew up at him over some petty situations.
The thing that saved the relationship in both situations is that Daria apologized for her volatile behavior.
Jane never did. <No we're not going to bring up the Herb Grow Road Kill in MOD> This is why I said that Jane had to share the blame in the relationship breaking up.
I did NOT like Tom going after Daria before ending his relationship with Jane.
That WAS cold!
Truth be told, if the relationship between Daria and Tom ends tonight I am not going shed any tears over it.
I feel that Tom has served his purpose. Which was to help Daria come out of her shell, and the series out of it's rut.
My opinion is that Daria and Tom will eventually go their separate ways. After all it's Senior Year and everyone will be going to college soon.
High school relationship's usually don't survive the summer after graduation. If it does survive that hurdle it will not make it past the first semester of college.
Especially if they're long distant relationships.
Now if Tom does find someone else and treats Daria like he treated Jane then Mr. Sloane will have Hell to pay.
Not only from Daria and Jane but I think of a few Lane and Morgendorffer siblings that might have to get involved.
<Cough Quinn, cough cough Trent>
Firah
I never though that Tom was treating Jane as disposible, before or after the season 5 revelations. Tom's problem was that he seemed to just make up after their big fights without any effort to deal with the underlying problems. (Of course, Jane was just as much at fault.) That conversation they had on the swingset in DDMD should have taken place MUCH earlier, with the likely outcome a breakup by mutual agreement.
Tom's romantic overtures were no substitute for communication.
I think it's also due to the fact that Tom has met relationship difficulties head-on with Daria. When they're having troubles, as in the two above-mentioned episodes, he insists on talking it out. If Daria is going to refuse to talk out the problem, Tom will let her stew for a while. Which I think makes sense. He didn't do this with Jane, and I think he's learned from it.
I don't think anything would have saved it. It just could have ended on a much better note, and by mutual agreement.
The trouble is, I still don't think Jane realizes her "volatile bevavior" is a problem, and she's likely to repeat it with her next boyfriend. Unless he's a guy who thrives on constant conflict, she's going to drive him away.
It may have been dumb on his part (he did say "I've been a real idiot", after all) but I think he thought it WAS over. When he talked to Daria in the car in DDMD, he referred to his relationship with Jane several times in the past tense ("We went out for a while. We got bored with each other." as opposed to "We've been going out for a while. We're getting bored with each other."). I think he though the phone call with the "freaky accusations" was the end of it. Not until Jane showed up with a full head of steam the next day did he realize Jane saw it differently. and that she still had hopes of a reconciliation.
M Man
after
car in
tense
"We've
think
Not
Jane
Oh no! I am not hearing that! Tom already had it in his mind that the relationship was over. Thus him speaking of his relationship with Jane in the past tense.
He didn't bother to tell Jane that.
To quote Tom himself. "I'm a real idiot. We should have just broken up and I should have never have gotten Daria involved".
Indeed.
Firah
So why do you think he spoke in the past tense? Do you think it has no significance?
It WAS long since over, and Jane's phone call with the freaky accusations certainly removed ALL doubt. Although, yes, the formalities of breaking up should have been observed. Tom realized that, later.
True enough, he didn't ....
... and regretted it deeply the next day.
My point isn't that his mistakenly believing Jane thought the relationship was over exonerates him for what he did - Tom certainly wouldn't think so himself. Just that he didn't do it out of deliberate viciousness - he had a plausible reason that looked less plausible the next day.
Do you think Tom just decided the first time he laid eyes on Jane that he'd date her for a year, then dump her for her brainy friend just to be vicious?
M Man
"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...
with
the
past
to
it.
realize
up
and I
was
himself.
plausible
he'd
vicious?
No, it was handled very badly.
And that is something we can ALL agree on.
Firah.
MMan said:
I never said Tom was "vicious." Just "cold." He liked Jane, but I don't think he ever loved her. I don't think he loves Daria either -- I think this is all just about having companionship while waiting for his "real life" to begin.
I don't think Daria sees things this way, and I know Jane did.
I mean, "I know Jane didn't either."
It occurred to me early on that there hasn't been much "passion" in Tom's relationships with either Jane or Daria. I get the impression that, much as Tom likes Daria, and much as he likes Jane, there's something tentative about all his relationships, like he has trouble connecting. That seems to define him better than "cold," which seems a bit harsh to me.
Steve Cross
Steve Cross said:
That's a good point. It's not like he wants to hurt either of them -- it's that he's not that powerfully drawn to them, either. This, incidentally, makes it more likely that he never physically consumnated his relationship with Jane (we can be pretty sure that Daria's still a virgin, since going all the way with Tom would be a major event in her life).
On Sat, 05 May 2001 20:52:04 GMT, [email] (Steve Cross) wrote:
That plotline's still going?
I just realized how little I can miss in a year, when a year equals roughly half a season. Or has it been longer? Or shorter? I don't know when it was when I finally gave up attempting to tape Daria in a household of idiots, due to my lack of personal cable access, But maybe I can go back to watching... and taping, now that my work schedule is vampiric in nature.
I'm back! :-D
On 05 May 2001 14:28:27 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
You are asking a helluva lot from a teenager. I don't plan on figuring out love until at least my late 30's...
Kyle The Todd Dunwoody of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs
Sole Member and President Of All Chapters DBFC
Well, that rhetorical question of mine was directed at Firah, not you, since she didn't accept my reasoning on why Tom was speaking of his relationship with Jane in the past tense while in the car with Daria.
Or could it be something I suggested last fall: that Tom saw his relationship with Jane as something tentative with possibilities. That's pretty mature and realistic for a teenager. That's not necessarily waiting for "real life" to begin, just realizing that while he COULD marry a high-school sweetheart, the odds are against it.
Remember in DDMD Tom told Jane "we weren't going anywhere. We were about to break up." The inference being that had they been "going somewhere", they might never have broken up, gotten married and lived happily ever after.
And recall that his relationship with Jane started drifting south almost from the beginning. And that Daria has been VERY resistent to letting her own feelings towards him show - it took her how many episodes before she even could say "my boyfriend" without choking on the words? It takes two to be uncold.
Daria (as Jane may have) may very well see this as a lifelong relationship already. But she's really not acting that way towards him. She's holding back a lot (assuming that's the way she feels).
M Man
M Man wrote:
Half-accurate. I think Tom's relationship with Jane was still going FAIRLY strong in the episodes "Partner's Complaint", "A Tree Grows in Lawndale", and "The F Word". But in "I Loathe a Parade", it WAS definitely going south! And it was only getting worse from then on.
And if she is seeing it as at least possibly a lifelong relationship, she's probably holding back out of long habit -- she rarely shows her emotions, iirc.
Belle Book
Well, ILAP was the first sign of trouble openly. And yes, they were still going strong in Partner's Complaint. But I thought that in the other three episodes they had plateaued and were starting to take each other for granted - they just hadn't starting fighting yet. That was probably about the time Tom started trying the romantic overtures he mentioned in Sappy Anniversary.
Which is so damn sad, because she's so passionate INSIDE. Sheesh!
M Man
M Man wrote:
That may well have been the time Tom started trying to act more romantic, hiding the fact that he no longer felt romantic (and maybe hoping against hope that acting more romantic would help him feel more romantic. However, trying to force the issue didn't work out -- not very surprising).
It sure is sad.
Belle Book
They needed to communicate - not go for buggy rides - and screaming at each other about Gummi Bears doesn't count.
M Man
M Man wrote:
You're right about that! They did need to communicate, but obviously they didn't realize that until it was too late.
Belle Book
On 06 May 2001 22:59:32 GMT, [email] (Belle Book) wrote:
But understandable. In general, one with that capacity for both passion and honesty gets burned by the majority who lack it.
Daryl Sawyer said:
Or, to be charitable, the majority who lack as great a capacity. Incidentally, we were talking about Daria, but Jane is like her in this -- capable of both passion and honesty. That's one reason their friendship is so strong.
And note Alison's inability to understand Jane's integrity, ascribing it to immaturity.
Oh, bull.
In SA she refused to tell him why she was upset even when he directly asked her. Her refusing to answer told him that even after 6 months she STILL doesn't trust him enough to be open and honest about her feelings with him. That HURT him. She'd already shown that she would twist ANYTHING he said into an insult. Until SHE decided that SHE was willing to talk to him, there was not a damn thing he could've done. Even Jane pointed out that DARIA was the one acting like a complete ass.
In the Story of D, Daria hasn't the slightest damn clue how to deal with failure or rejection because she's never tried to do something without being forced before. Again, SHE is the one trying to twist Tom's support into an insult. She's acting like a spoiled brat and Tom shouldn't have to put up with that.
As well she should have since both fights were entirely her fault.
(Unless one believes that Jane is deliberately trying to get the two of them to fight -- she brought up her romantic dinners with Tom, and suggested he read her story and was utterly shocked when she heard he liked it.)
I hate to burst your bubble but he didn't "go after" Daria. He went to her house with the intention of only talking. BOTH of the them were overcome by their emotions and both of them realized that what THEY - not just he - had done was a "bad thing".
You know, the thing that is so utterly loathsome about the "Legion of Tom Haters" is that they are all such total hypocrites.
If Trent had hooked up with Daria while still dating Monique, you'd all be dancing in the streets singing about how wonderful it was that Trent "finally came to his senses." (Screw Monique; who cares how she'd feel about being betrayed by a guy who's been her friend since high school. All that matters is that Daria and Trent are together! :P)
If Jane had cheated on Tom you'd all just shrug and say, "well, as long as Jane is happy, that's all that really matters."
If Tom had blown up at Daria for no reason, you'd all be screeching about what an asshole he was and how "Daria shouldn't have to put up with that sort of childishness."
If Daria cheated on Tom with Trent you'd all be creaming in your jeans and flopping on the floor in fits of religious ecstasy.
But still you continuously pat yourselves on the back for all your tiresome harping about what a bastard rich boy prick Tom is.
Hypocrites all.
Oh, bull.
In SA she refused to tell him why she was upset even when he directly asked her. Her refusing to answer told him that even after 6 months she STILL doesn't trust him enough to be open and honest about her feelings with him. That HURT him. She'd already shown that she would twist ANYTHING he said into an insult. Until SHE decided that SHE was willing to talk to him, there was not a damn thing he could've done. Even Jane pointed out that DARIA was the one acting like a complete ass.
In the Story of D, Daria hasn't the slightest damn clue how to deal with failure or rejection because she's never tried to do something without being forced before. Again, SHE is the one trying to twist Tom's support into an insult. She's acting like a spoiled brat and Tom shouldn't have to put up with that.
You didn't read anything I said did you? You just got yourself worked up about Tom and started attacking. Here's the gist of the conversation...AGAIN!
Me: My big problem with Tom was his treatment of Jane. She may have deserved
went
Jordan: Mmm ... my problem with his treatment of Jane is that when things started going sour, he made no real effort to salvage the relationship. He was just like "oh well, I'm getting bored," and treated Jane as disposable.
Firah: Actually he didn't. If you watched 'Sappy Anniversary' he explained that he took Jane out to a fancy restaurant and a horse ride in the park to try and bring back 'that loving feeling'.
It didn't work obviously.
I can see where you would get that opinion because I got the same impression myself.
There were a few things that we weren't privy to in Season Four that are only starting to come to light in Season Five.
Jordan: I see him as quite likely to treat Daria the exact same way if she becomes too difficult.
Firah: He's already done it a couple of times, in the aforementioned 'Sappy Anniversary and 'The Story Of D'.
He stopped calling or seeing Daria after she blew up at him over some petty situations.
Did you get that? Yes Daria has made things for Tom 'difficult'. And yes he has stopped seeing her because Daria made things difficult.
But Daria realized she was wrong and apologized.
I told you I am totally anti-shipper Trent, Tom or anyone else.
Not that it matters anymore...
"finally
matters is
See above.
Jane
Oh! But cheating on Jane is okay though?
what
of
No I would be just as pissed. Even more so. I knew the Trent/Daria thing was a dead end. Even Daria realized that.
tiresome
I didn't say I hated Tom, but I hated what he done.
Whether it was outright malice (the anti-Thomists) or he was a victim of circumstances (the Tom Apologists) it was a 'lousy situation'.
And THAT can NOT be denied.
I'd rather think he was cold than to think he pulled an 'O'Neil' and in trying to not hurt anyone, he ended up hurting everyone.
I'd rather he be cold than a coward.
And, in the end, that cold/cowardice hurt Jane, and I like Jane (did I say that before?)
If you reply with why I am not ragging on Daria? Because I like Daria too. But during this whole mess I can admit to being very disappointed in her.
Then I thought about something Helen said back in Season 2. 'Daria you judge people by a pretty high set of standards. Standards that even you don't live up to most of the time'
That got me over that emotion.
If you say why can't I be that forgiving of Tom? I didn't know the guy until DDMD.
I haven't had the chance to know or understand him. I can only judge what I saw, and what I saw I didn't like.
Kissing your girlfriend's best friend does not make a good first impression.
In conclusion this situation was handled pretty badly no matter how you twist it.
And yes Trent, Jane, and Daria are not the collection of warm, happy, fluffy bunnies (as you stated in your other post) but I consider them people I care about, even if they are only cartoon characters.
But if any of those people get hurt for any reason I have a problem with the person that is doing the hurting.
Rant on kid about us taking Tom to task for the events that happened at the end of Season Four.
However Tom is doing a huge penance for those actions when he hooked up with Daria.
LOL
I bet a couple of times this season that Tom was thinking about that old adage: "Be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it."
Firah
But "outright malice" and "victim of circumstances" are NOT the only choices. Tom made a BIG MISTAKE and freely admitted it later - he even tried to take Daria's share of the blame. I recall now an exchange from last year on this ng between Jill Friedman and Martin Pollard. Jill pointed out how perfect Tom seemed and first and now (after DDMD) he didn't seem so perfect. Martin replied "Yeah, the writer made him human. Damn writers :-)"
Damn writers indeed. :-)
Neither cold nor a coward. He made a mistake under the influence of teenage hormones and a failing relationship he didn't know how to end properly. And didn't deny it afterward.
And Jane likes Tom and Daria once again. She had enough sense, in the middle of the most painful experience of her young life, to NOT burn her bridges but to give herself time to get over the pain. And NOT lash out uncontrollably at two people she knew were not malicious or deliberately hurtful.
Not because she's "a saint" as was said by several people, youself included I believe, last fall. But because she actually took a long-term view of the situation and knew the hurt would pass and some day soon enough she'd want her best friend back again.
Yet one poster (not you, Firah) thought Jane should send Trent out with a baseball bat to - well, it's not clear what. Kill Tom? Maim him for life?
Get a sense of proportion, people.
But maybe, like Daria, he doesn't live up to his standards all the time, either.
Martin Pollard: "He's human. Damn writers."
Have you seen the rest of season 4 since seeing DDMD?
Well, he could break up with her. I think now he's figured out how to do that. But he hasn't done so. Maybe he has good reasons.
M Man
M Man wrote:
You're right -- he just made a mistake, albeit a BIG MISTAKE, and he was smart enough (or mature enough) to admit his errors in the situation.
Wisest words I ever heard!
I also think he's figured out how to properly break up with a girl. But he hasn't done so, and while I don't know his reasons, perhaps he's just more mature than that -- not the type of person to jump off at the first sign of a relationship going wrong. And I wonder if we want Tom to be the type of guy to bail out once his relationship with a girl -- including Daria -- begins to get rocky.
Belle Book
NON-SPECIFIC GENERAL SEASON 6 SPOILERS . . . . . . . NON-SPECIFIC GENERAL SEASON 6 SPOILERS . . . . . . . NON-SPECIFIC GENERAL SEASON 6 SPOILERS . . . . . . . NON-SPECIFIC GENERAL SEASON 6 SPOILERS . . . . . . . NON-SPECIFIC GENERAL SEASON 6 SPOILERS . . . . . . . NON-SPECIFIC GENERAL SEASON 6 SPOILERS . . . . . . . NON-SPECIFIC GENERAL SEASON 6 SPOILERS . . . . . . .
Well, Tom obviously isn't that sort, hanging on with Jane so long with all their arguments.
His big error with Jane was that they didn't communicate, and he did nothing to try to fix the situation. With Daria, he's definitely communicating, but Daria so often isn't (esp. in Sappy Anniversary, but also in The Story of D) and Tom has to force the issue. That can get old.
M Man
"Firah" wrote in message news:tcrI6.4081$[email]...
You know, with editing things always change. For example, if I edit everything out of your post except this:
....you get a completely DIFFERENT idea!
And a very scary one.... ;-)
"Jeg7777" wrote in message news:9cvmi4$994$[email]...
message
Actually I think there is a fanfic already written on this particular scenario.
I cant' think of it right now but I know it's a part of a series...
Firah
Cough Quinn?
If, God or Eichler forbid, Tom does the same thing to Daria he did to Jane, (i.e., make out with another girl before breaking up ), has it occurred to anyone besides me that the "other girl" might BE Quinn!?
Quinn stated openly in "Lane Miserables" that she considers another girl's boyfriend fair game.
But, you say, Quinn would never do such a thing to DARIA? Well, would Daria do such a thing to JANE? Who'd have believed THAT?
Please please please tell me Tom wouldn't make the same mistake TWICE. Please?
M Man
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in , on the date of 07 May 2001:
I think the original idea was that Quinn and _Trent_ might become an item, which was sufficiently horrifying. Tom could conceivably break up with Daria, but if goes against everything that is good and beautiful in the universe to imagine that he would start going out with Quinn. (Well, everything good and beautiful in my universe, anyway.) Quinn's come a long way since the first season, but...she's still Quinn. If Tom couldn't find _Jane_ interesting enough to maintain a relationship, I'd say Quinn's chances are somewhere between...um...Absolute Zero and even colder than that!
(Now Tom and Helen, on the other hand...)
-Mark Steese
SPOILER FOR SAPPY ANNIVERSARY . . . . . . SPOILER FOR SAPPY ANNIVERSARY . . . . . . SPOILER FOR SAPPY ANNIVERSARY . . . . . . SPOILER FOR SAPPY ANNIVERSARY . . . . . . SPOILER FOR SAPPY ANNIVERSARY . . . . . . SPOILER FOR SAPPY ANNIVERSARY . . . . . . SPOILER FOR SAPPY ANNIVERSARY . . . . . .
Well, Firah was speculating about Tom becoming a two-time two-timer and I started to wonder just who the "other girl" might be the second time around. Actually, I don't think this is a very likely outcome no matter who the girl is. If Tom and Daria break up, I think Eichler et al will come up something altogther different. DMMD is not (or should not be) a recyclable episode.
The implicit parallels drawn between Tom-Daria on one hand and Jake-Helen on the other in SA are at least some indication that Tom and Daria just might stay together...
....which would be good and beautiful in my universe.
M Man
In article ,
As to whether or not he would make the same mistake twice, who knows. But I can't see it happening with Quinn. Although she has dramatically improved, I think to him she's still one of those fashion freaks whose Blush-A-Thon caused such fear and trembling. :)
And really, I don't think the New Quinn would do that to Daria. I really don't. Daria did it to Jane, true, but 1. Daria was drawn to TOM, not just "Jane's boyfriend." Quinn doesn't really see guys as individuals. They're just not that important to her, other than as status symbols. Except David. Hmm. 2. No matter how intelligent and self-contained you are, the first time someone takes a romantic interest in you it is heady, heady stuff. Especially if it didn't happen as early for you as it did for some. Daria lost her head. Quinn's too used to the attention of males to lose hers.
Just MHO of course... -Ashley
Ashley D. Ford wrote:
Yes, I remember Tom's reaction to the Blush-A-Thon so well. "No! There are these girls in there, rubbing stuff on each other's cheeks and making animal noises. I got kind of scared." ("Dye! Dye! My Darling!") And then there was the time in "I Loathe a Parade" where he, Daria, and Tad Gupty hopped a float which just happened to carry the Fashion Club -- Tom's first exposure to Quinn, I suspect. I don't think it was a good first impression, and first impressions are hard to get over. So maybe Tom does see her as still one of those fashion freaks.
Good points. Daria isn't the type of girl to be drawn to someone just because he's someone else's boyfriend (especially her best friend's -- that's one big reason why she tried to resist falling for Tom in the first place). And Daria's NOT used to somebody taking a romantic interest in her, and once you add in the fact that she's drawn to Tom, it's easy to see why she lost her head -- even if her losing her head was disappointing.
Belle Book
Just to play devil's advocate here:
Remember "Jane's Addition"? What sort of first impression did Tom get of Daria?
M Man
M Man wrote:
Touche, M Man.
Belle Book
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in <20010504002147.20343.00002046@ng- da1.aol.com>, on the date of 03 May 2001:
Not to defend Tom too much, but he's an adolescent too, and considering the fact that he made up with Jane after she didn't bother to tell him about the Jane-cam, made up with her _again_ after receiving the fan letter from the convicts, and then _again_ after the 'gummi bear' incident, I don't think he gave up on the relationship too easily. Of course, if I were a character on Daria who was lucky enough to hook up with Jane, I'd do everything in my power and then some to keep the relationship working, but I imagine she'd put me through the wringer -- not out of malice but just because that's who she is.
Having said that, I agree that he treated Jane like dirt, and if I were Trent I would have gone after him with a baseball bat.
I can't see this happening, considering that Daria has already treated him like dirt on numerous occasions (hey, karmic payback time!). Realistically speaking, how much more difficult could their relationship be?
Yours, Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus
Right, because we all know what a collection of warm, happy fluffy bunnies Daria, Jane and Trent are.
Barmor said:
Let's see ...
Daria's not "cold." She's sometimes suspicious and hostile, though.
Jane's not "cold" at all -- she's self-absorbed, impulsive, and socially inept.
Trent is laid-back. I've never seen him being "cold," though.
Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message news:[email]...
bunnies
inept.
Both Jane and Trent are polar opposites on the psychological profile of "typical artist". Jane's neurotic but rapidly creative, Trent's supercool but a bit slow.
Mark Whickman said:
Good point.
Trent's "cool" in the sense of "not readily displaying emotion," though. He's a very warm and caring person underneath, as he's demonstrated in more than one ep. He's just careful who he shows this side of himself to.
BA wrote in message news:[email]...
That's the point, he's cold in comparison.
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...
He does. He sees it every time he looks in the mirror.
That was uncalled for. All the individual who initiated this thread did was insult an animated character, who certainly has no feelings to hurt.
Al52228 wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree -- the statement about Tom seeing "white trash" every time he looks in the mirror WAS uncalled for!
Tom's hardly perfect -- heck, I like Tom but I agree that he should never have kissed Daria (which is what began the whole mess) -- still, he's an adolescent character and adolescents do tend to do stupid things (that includes Daria's behavior in the infamous Tom incident), and he's shown quite a bit of patience in dealing with Daria (maybe his past experience with Jane is responsible for this) -- we should give the guy a second chance unless he does to Daria what he did to Jane. After all, don't most people deserve second chances?
Secondly, I agree with an earlier post of Firah's -- Tom DID change the dynamics of the show, and maybe that was why Eichler created him -- to change the dynamics of the show in a more positive way. "I Loathe a Parade" (which I only saw AFTER "Dye! Dye! My Darling") was the beginning of the change, which really became evident in "Fire!" and DDMD, and which is still being felt today. I wish the change had taken place without the upheaval and the ugliness, but maybe Eichler was being realistic.
In any case, let's get off Tom's case and think about the positives of Season 5, since we won't have Daria around for much longer.
Belle Book
"Belle Book" wrote in message news:[email]...
Tom
was
every
have
adolescent
Daria's
patience
for
what he
change
(which I
which
today.
but
Season
Belle Book is right!
I don't apologize for some of the things I've said in previous posts but I do agree with everything you've said.
Let's just end the madness.
Firah
"Belle Book" wrote in message news:[email]...
Tom
was
every
You're confusing the comment. Some attributions were snipped. The original poster, named Bernie, was the one who made the reference to Tom needing a scraggly mustache to be "white trash." Then Jordan asked Bernie, as part of his reply, "Do you know what 'white trash' is?" And I replied, "He does. He sees it every time he looks in the mirror"--referring to Bernie, the original poster--not to Tom. It is obvious Tom isn't and couldn't possibly be "white trash." I thought the original poster made a really stupid post, so I took the opportunity to made a joke about him. With all due respect, if it somehow insulted you, you'll have to get over it because I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Jeg7777 wrote:
Well, both Al52228 and I got confused, you're right about that. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.
Belle Book
GENERAL SEASON 5 SPOILERS . . . . . . GENERAL SEASON 5 SPOILERS . . . . . . GENERAL SEASON 5 SPOILERS . . . . . . GENERAL SEASON 5 SPOILERS . . . . . . GENERAL SEASON 5 SPOILERS . . . . . .
The fact that we can all still get very passionate about DDMD, as this late date, is a tribute to what a stoke of genius that season 4 finale was. And maybe why good discussions on this ng may survive after the show ends.
Hmmm. Season 5. Season 5 ....
Oh, THAT season 5!
Unfortunately, season 5 talk kinda died down with this silly mid-season break, but I guess there is stuff to talk about.
My quick take on season 5's episodes:
Great Episode: Lucky Strike
Near-Great: Fat Like Me (the best focus-on-the-FC episode ever)
Fair-to-middlin': Sappy Anniversary, Camp Fear, Art Burn, The Story of D
Eichler-what-were-you-thinking?: Fizz Ed
Best moments from season 5:
Sappy Anniversary: Quinn telling Tom "I forgot. I don't remember."
Lucky Strike: "After all, she's my sister!"
Fat Like Me: "... while you 'staaaare in the mirrrorr and talllk about yourselllf' and I .. I ... I QUIT!!!"
Art Burn: Stacy putting up the charicatures in her room.
Comments? Flames? Anyone want to break my fingers like in that TV show about those guys? :-)
M Man
M Man wrote:
You're right -- it WAS a great finale, since it got us really passionate about the show.
I LOVED Quinn's confession that Daria was her sister in LS, Stacy's developing a backbone in FLM, and Stacy's rescuing the caricatures from destruction in AB! It's amazing that Stacy and Quinn are getting some great quotes and scenes THIS season! Well, actually it's more amazing Stacy's getting the great quotes and scenes.
Belle Book
Very nice for us long-time Stacy rooters. I'm starting to feel sorry for the long-suffering Andrea fans, though. It doesn't look like their favorite goth chick is going to get her day in the sun - or rather, that Mart of Darkness (pun intended :-) ) WAS her day in the sun.
M Man
M Man wrote:
I feel a bit sorry for them, too. "Mart of Darkness" wasn't a terrible fanfic, but parts of it were probably too contrived, and it WAS rather uneven -- I think the best parts were the bits involving Tom and the chasing of Andrea. On the plus side, those who like Stacy should be pleased with her improved status.
Belle Book
Fanfic? I was referring to the season 4 episode in which Jane and Daria found Andrea working in a discount store.
M Man
M Man wrote:
That was a typo on my part which slipped through the cracks, I'm afraid. I meant to write "episode", but wrote "fanfic" instead. Usually I notice and correct such errors before posting newsgroup messages, but this was one that slipped through the cracks.
Belle Book
"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...
Tom
was
every
Daria's
for
what
change
(which
which
but
late
And
Season
break,
Agreed
Agreed
Actually I think Camp Fear and Fizz Ed should trade places.
Quinn - You know, Daria, how big a fuss a guy makes over your anniversary is the true test of whether he cares.
Daria - Huh. And here I've been demanding they mail me an ear.
Quinn - I'm serious. If he forgets, it means he's taking you for granted. Not that I would know, but that's what Stacy tells me. Say, how long have you and that Tom been going out?
Daria - Um... no idea?
Quinn - Oh, Daria...
Daria - Look, all that matters in a relationship is that you like the same pizza toppings.
<These quotes were taken from Martin Pollard's Outpost Daria site. Thank you Martin!>
God! There are too many scenes in this one episode to choose from. This is definately one of the best episodes of the entire series.
Quinn coaching Sandi at the swimming pool: "Beauty never rests! Now swim you cow! SWIM!"
Oh most definately. One of the sweetest moments of this season and possibly the entire series, next to Daria calling Quinn 'sis' at the end of 'Lucky Strike'
Of course THE sweetest moment of the entire series happened in 'Write Where It Hurts'...but we are talking about Season 5 aren't we?
about
Oh ho ho! THAT line.
I really maligned 'Art Burn' on the first night I saw it, but it was because it was such a letdown from the high I was on from 'Lucky Strike'.
Now that I look at the episode in retrospect it wasn't that bad.
The scene where Wind comes in and hugs Trent, then Jane, and then pauses at Daria and says "Penny??!!"
Priceless...
Firah
Well, I'm not sure about that, but I do think Camp Fear was more middlin' than fair.
Another good scene in that one was Daria telling Quinn "why are you defending the stupid people? You're not one of them!' and Quinn looking confused (is this a compliment or reproach? It was both, Quinn) and replying "You don't understand anything!"
Oh, and Daria coming down for dinner with Helen, Jake and Quinn: "Mom. Dad. (pause) Class." :-)
"Sorry. Coach talk" :-)
Not a bad scene either.
How about Trent trying to get the lazy gazebo workmen going and lamenting "they remind me of me!"
As little as I liked "Fizz Ed", I liked the scene where Janet Barch had to use to cans-as-solar-system teaching aid, because her attitude in that scene matched my feeling about the whole episode:
Ms. Barch - Now, the reason for the change is that I've received a brand new.... (distastefully) learning aid. (pulls out a mobile made of Ultra Cola cans, and begins reading off a cue card) "Why, look, students. A three-dimensional model of our solar system, graciously provided by Ultra Cola. Ultra Cola: the favorite beverage in any universe." (sighs) "we can use it to discuss which planets' atmospheres might support the process of carbonation." Or I can just spend the rest of the day in the teachers' bathroom, staring at the tiles. (leaves)
(and about Outpost Daria - ditto to what Firah said)
M Man
"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...
D
than
is
same
you
is
defending
(is
don't
possibly
Where
show
because
at
"they
That scene was funny, but kind of sad too. I keep thinking of Daria's comment about Trent in 'Janes Addition'
She told Tom that she hopes Mystik Spiral does succeed because she couldn't think of anything else that Trent would be able to do.
The sad part is that it's true. I sure don't want Trent to end up being one of those over-age teenagers that never leave home.
Still living over your parents garage at 30-something playing Doors covers.
<shudder>
It's a funny line, unless it becomes a reality. I know a few people that are still living at their parents house long after age 25.
It ain't pretty...
Firah
Well, we've seen "moments of truth" for a lot of characters this season - maybe Trent is next. I can't believe they'll wrap it all up without us knowing what becomes of Trent.
It IS tough to imagine Trent in a "regular" job, however.
And Tom's idea about farming was meant as a joke. I don't see that happening.
Maybe if Trent goes to college and majors in music he can teach music at Lawndale High:
<DeMartino>
Welcome to the FACULTY, Mister LANE! I think you'll FIND that the students TODAY are the same kind of SLACKERS you were when YOU were a student here YOURSELF!
</DeMartino>
M Man
MMan37x said:
SPOILERS ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
I think that was a moment in which he matured, actually.
M Man wrote:
I think FE & CF are probably very close together, with FE perhaps being a bit worse than CF.
And I can think of a couple of other great scenes and lines! Like Tiffany's reply to Mr. Edwards's VERY obvious come-on to her -- "You're writing about gardening?" LOL! If that isn't stupid or oblivious, I don't know what is! :D
Then there's Daria's entry and announcing herself as Quinn's substitute teacher! Quinn's reaction practically cracked me up! :D And Helen's reaction to Quinn's speed-rant ("He was stroking Tiffany's hair?!") was also priceless! Meanwhile, of course, Daria had quickly grabbed the cell-phone. :)
I still have to see WWIH, but I would agree that probably the sweetest moments in Season 5 so far would be Daria calling Quinn "sis" at the end of LS, and Stacy's looking at the caricatures in AB.>>
Sounds like the beginning of a possible crisis of self-awareness for Trent.
Definitely matches my feelings about Ms. Li's deal with that soda guy -- I would've rather spent the rest of my day in the bathroom, staring at the tiles.
Belle Book
In article , [email] says...
Actually I'm Mexican. So I guess I'm a beaner to you.
Bernie
"Bernie" wrote in message news:[email]...
No, just a moron.
In article ,
Damn! My bet was that he was from Crete. Where the Cretins come from.
Chika wrote:
LOL! :D Actually, people from Crete are called Cretans (I believe), but cretins still work for me!
Belle Book
chika wrote in message news:[email]...
Cretins are unfortunate people with advanced rickets.
Not nice.
In article ,
New one on me. <Looks up in dictionary...> Ooo yes! "Person afflicted with physical and mental retardation caused by a thyroid deficiency; Informal - stupid person"
Nasty...
chika wrote in message news:[email]...
Also occurs in crete though.
The lack of iodine stops them synthesisng vit. D.
"Bernie" wrote in message news:[email]...
Those that have been to my site would know that I too have a mullet, and I WAS raised in a white trash community in West Virginia, but I turned out the opposite.
To be honest, the part about Tom being white trash is simply not true. Anyone who was actually watching the show would notice that. So the question comes to mind: Have you really been watching the show, or did you wander in here by accident?