Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-#404 (4-43), "Murder, She Snored"

Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-#404 (4-43), "Murder, She Snored" Spoilers Space for #404 (If you don�t want to know, then don�t scroll!) La La La La La This is Mike's post Got to review Or he'll go nuts Reacting Re-ACT-ing It's got to be delayed La La La Too soon and it will fade La La La He's standing by his grade La La La He's standing by his grade La La La He's standing by his grade La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La..... / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / La La La La La La La La La La..... Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-"Murder, She Snored" MDRR #404 (4-43) - Go Gonzaga! I Didn't Do It - Who did Kevin and the football team think they were fooling by all getting 100s on that test? DeMartino isn't stupid, he's crazy (probably because of stuff like this). The evidence points right to at least one of them. I'd say that Kevin probably did it at the urging of his teammates - it's good to have someone that can claim ignorance without automatically being called a liar to do the job. By the way, if you must cheat by stealing a test, get some of the answers wrong on purpose. It's much less suspicious (not that I would know). Unintentional Ironies of the Week - There were two that I'd like to point out. First, was Brittany's "what's that 'A' doing on you paper?" The second was Helen's "it's a clear cut case of abuse" after she blew Daria off. Do the Right Thing - Mack and Brittany rightly go to Kevin to try to convince him to confess. He maintains that he knows nothing and feels persecuted for being a brain. Then Miss Li overhears Daria and Jane joke about killing him. Then... ...you know <yawn>, I'm getting a bit tired, time for a <yawn> nap... ...Kevin somehow ended up in Daria's locker, dead of at least an arrow wound. Motivated Seller - Everyone was a suspect in the case of Kevin's murder. That's probably because almost everyone had a viable motive. Jane didn't like losing her high grade that she worked so hard for. Mack never did like being called Mack Daddy and DeMartino never liked Kevin period. Brittany didn't want to be relegated to somewhere off the sidelines. But Daria turned out to be the prime suspect, despite having no specific motive (there was that little matter of the body being in her now oversized locker, though). Oh No! - Is Trent dead? No, just sleeping. So, Who's Done It?!?! - All of the detective work really paid off. <sigh> In dream-ality all Daria had to do was tell everyone about some radioactive dye to get some confessions. It seems that Jane poisoned Kevin, the Brittany shot him with an arrow as Mack clubbed him with, well, a club. Finally, after he was probably already dead, Barch kicked him and declared that it would be a "great day" and DeMartino strangled him before stashing the body in Daria's locker. Subtle Clues - Each of the murderers drop some hints that they knew some of what happened to our poor QB. Jane sent her complements to the chef on the cyanide. Mack kind of lost it when asked about that Mack Daddy stuff. Brittany was a little too eager to start looking for a new boyfriend. Finally, DeMartino was quick to point fingers at Daria and Jane. All that, and the series of close-ups on the guilty parties (complete with the shady eye shifts) after Miss Li announces that she knew who did it. ...wow <yawn>, that was a great nap, and I got a lot done with my head on the keyboard. <yawn> ... More Subtle Clues - The fact that most of this episode was one of Daria's dreams wasn't immediately obvious, at first, but in retrospect, there were several clues that stuck out like sore thumbs. First, was Daria large locker. Second, was the fact that a high school was conducting a murder investigation. Third, was the fact that people Daria knows started acting like famous TV detectives. Finally, but most importantly, I don't think they (meaning the writers) would really kill off everyone's favorite whipping boy (but I had my fingers crossed). Paging Dr. Freud - Daria's dream can give us some insight into how she sees people and what she really thinks about them. For instance, she sees the Fashion Club as stupid, shallow social posterurs. DeMartino is seen as more overstressed and bitter, while Jake and Helen are seen as haphazard and overly motherly, respectively. However, the most interesting thing about it is the how she sees herself. The impressions that I got was that she feels she is above, or maybe even superior to, everyone else and almost always gets screwed anyway (as seen by her "execution" at the end of the dream). Shipper tease of the Week - Another thing about Daria's dream, that deserves special consideration, is the part about Trent being dead. If I were to try to analyze this portion, I would say that she doesn't think she has or wants to have feelings for him anymore. This leads to him waking up, which tells me that she still has some feelings for him that are buried way down. The whole scene, taken together, tells me that she is trying to move on past this whole situation but that there is part of her that doesn't quite want to yet. At first, I wasn't quite sure what I thought about this episode. But after watching it again, it grew on me and I think it's probably the best of the season so far. At this point, I guess I'm going to have to explain why I like this episode and not like Depth Takes A Holiday. There are two reasons, ultimately. First the dream was presented as part of the flow of "normal" events in Lawndale. In other words, dreams weren't even attempted to be passed off as reality. Second, the dream itself was remarkably similar to what a real dream might be like in that it took events from Daria's life and her perceptions of the people and things around her and twisted them into coherence. Even all of the references, which were many, were well placed and unobtrusive (and I know that a whole lot of them went right over my head). Grade: A- Daria as a Whole #1, Alter-Ego of the Week (in episode division) - I liked Daria and Jane as Magnum P.I. and the guy that helps Magnum. Daria as a Whole #2, Actual Alter-Ego of the Week - Two words: Britney Barch. Copyright � 2000 Mike Quinn [All Rights Reserved]. "Daria" and all related characters are � 1997-2000 MTV Networks, Inc. Got a question about a review? Drop me an email at: [email] Missed a review? Check Outpost Daria, part of the Delayed Reaction Network http://www.lawndale.net

OK, let's try this again

Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-#404 (4-43), "Murder, She Snored"

Spoilers Space for #404 (If you don't want to know, then don't scroll!)

La La La La La This is Mike's post Got to review Or he'll go nuts

Reacting Re-ACT-ing

It's got to be delayed La La La Too soon and it will fade La La La He's standing by his grade La La La He's standing by his grade La La La He's standing by his grade

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Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-"Murder, She Snored"

MDRR #404 (4-43) - Go Gonzaga!

I Didn't Do It - Who did Kevin and the football team think they were fooling by all getting 100s on that test? DeMartino isn't stupid, he's crazy (probably because of stuff like this). The evidence points right to at least one of them. I'd say that Kevin probably did it at the urging of his teammates - it's good to have someone that can claim ignorance without automatically being called a liar to do the job. By the way, if you must cheat by stealing a test, get some of the answers wrong on purpose. It's much less suspicious (not that I would know).

Unintentional Ironies of the Week - There were two that I'd like to point out. First, was Brittany's "what's that 'A' doing on you paper?" The second was Helen's "it's a clear cut case of abuse" after she blew Daria off.

Do the Right Thing - Mack and Brittany rightly go to Kevin to try to convince him to confess. He maintains that he knows nothing and feels persecuted for being a brain. Then Miss Li overhears Daria and Jane joke about killing him. Then...

..you know <yawn>, I'm getting a bit tired, time for a <yawn> nap...

..Kevin somehow ended up in Daria's locker, dead of at least an arrow wound.

Motivated Seller - Everyone was a suspect in the case of Kevin's murder. That's probably because almost everyone had a viable motive. Jane didn't like losing her high grade that she worked so hard for. Mack never did like being called Mack Daddy and DeMartino never liked Kevin period. Brittany didn't want to be relegated to somewhere off the sidelines. But Daria turned out to be the prime suspect, despite having no specific motive (there was that little matter of the body being in her now oversized locker, though).

Oh No! - Is Trent dead? No, just sleeping.

So, Who's Done It?!?! - All of the detective work really paid off. <sigh> In dream-ality all Daria had to do was tell everyone about some radioactive dye to get some confessions. It seems that Jane poisoned Kevin, the Brittany shot him with an arrow as Mack clubbed him with, well, a club. Finally, after he was probably already dead, Barch kicked him and declared that it would be a "great day" and DeMartino strangled him before stashing the body in Daria's locker.

Subtle Clues - Each of the murderers drop some hints that they knew some of what happened to our poor QB. Jane sent her complements to the chef on the cyanide. Mack kind of lost it when asked about that Mack Daddy stuff. Brittany was a little too eager to start looking for a new boyfriend. Finally, DeMartino was quick to point fingers at Daria and Jane. All that, and the series of close-ups on the guilty parties (complete with the shady eye shifts) after Miss Li announces that she knew who did it.

..wow <yawn>, that was a great nap, and I got a lot done with my head on the keyboard. <yawn> ...

More Subtle Clues - The fact that most of this episode was one of Daria's dreams wasn't immediately obvious, at first, but in retrospect, there were several clues that stuck out like sore thumbs. First, was Daria large locker. Second, was the fact that a high school was conducting a murder investigation. Third, was the fact that people Daria knows started acting like famous TV detectives. Finally, but most importantly, I don't think they (meaning the writers) would really kill off everyone's favorite whipping boy (but I had my fingers crossed).

Paging Dr. Freud - Daria's dream can give us some insight into how she sees people and what she really thinks about them. For instance, she sees the Fashion Club as stupid, shallow social posterurs. DeMartino is seen as more overstressed and bitter, while Jake and Helen are seen as haphazard and overly motherly, respectively. However, the most interesting thing about it is the how she sees herself. The impressions that I got was that she feels she is above, or maybe even superior to, everyone else and almost always gets screwed anyway (as seen by her "execution" at the end of the dream).

Shipper tease of the Week - Another thing about Daria's dream, that deserves special consideration, is the part about Trent being dead. If I were to try to analyze this portion, I would say that she doesn't think she has or wants to have feelings for him anymore. This leads to him waking up, which tells me that she still has some feelings for him that are buried way down. The whole scene, taken together, tells me that she is trying to move on past this whole situation but that there is part of her that doesn't quite want to yet.

At first, I wasn't quite sure what I thought about this episode. But after watching it again, it grew on me and I think it's probably the best of the season so far. At this point, I guess I'm going to have to explain why I like this episode and not like Depth Takes A Holiday. There are two reasons, ultimately. First the dream was presented as part of the flow of "normal" events in Lawndale. In other words, dreams weren't even attempted to be passed off as reality. Second, the dream itself was remarkably similar to what a real dream might be like in that it took events from Daria's life and her perceptions of the people and things around her and twisted them into coherence. Even all of the references, which were many, were well placed and unobtrusive (and I know that a whole lot of them went right over my head).

Grade: A-

Daria as a Whole #1, Alter-Ego of the Week (in episode division) - I liked Daria and Jane as Magnum P.I. and the guy that helps Magnum.

Daria as a Whole #2, Actual Alter-Ego of the Week - Two words: Britney Barch.

Copyright � 2000 Mike Quinn [All Rights Reserved]. "Daria" and all related characters are � 1997-2000 MTV Networks, Inc.

Got a question about a review? Drop me an email at: [email]

Missed a review? Check Outpost Daria, part of the Delayed Reaction Network http://www.lawndale.net

Mike Quinn [email]

Hey, I went to St. John's. I'm in mourning.

I think this is going to be one of the storylines they deal with in this season and may lead to this relationship she's supposed to be embarking on, however that turns out.

Jeff M.

In article ,

Nothing personal, I just tend to root for the "underdog" and against Big East teams (especially Notre Dame) that don't start with "Villa" and end with "Nova" ;)

Agreed, part of that future relationship is going to have to either be part of or the result of how Daria ultimately deals with her feelings for Trent.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:26:06 -0800, Michael J. Quinn wrote:

How exactly can you steal test results anyway? Are tests in the US not made by the teachers themselves? If the teacher creates the test himself, there is no way to get the solutions beforehand without breaking into his house. Provided of course that the teacher doesn't leave 'em lying around in school. As a side note I want to mention that here in Germany we don't use multiple choice tests and teachers are smart enough to correct and grade tests without an answer key (hey, they write the test questions themselves, they better know the answers without looking them up if they demand the same from students). Our system has the added advantage that the teachers are less alert and overlook mistakes when correcting a brain's test (like mine :-) because they just assume it's correct. And the stupid jocks get tougher treatment because the teacher goes looking for the mistakes 'cause he expects a lot of them. MSB

p.s.: Speaking about teachers, what kind of education do you need to become a teacher in the US? Here a teacher has to study his subject at least 4 years in college.

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

MSB wrote:

Depends on the system. Most public school systems only require a 4-year degree from a certified "teacher's college", the validity of which has been under much scrutiny lately since it barely prepares the teacher for teaching any particular subject and only fills them up with teaching theories. Most private school systems and some public school systems, though, require a minimum of a bachelor's degree in the subject the teacher is about to teach. And when I went to my high school, there were quite a number of teacher's with master's and even doctorate's degrees in the areas they were teaching.

LI

Lady Interference said:

Having assisted a friend of mine (who is actually a competent teacher) in getting his Bacherlor's in Education, I can assure you that Diane knows whereof she speaks. The teaching theories, with the exception of Piaget, also are of very dubious validity.

My friend teaches gym and subs for other teachers regularly. His degree is in Accounting and his major relevant experience that he served in the US Army. They lucked out with him, though; he's smart, literate, and fully qualified in every subject they have him teach. He was a "brain" in school, who mutated into a "smart jock" after the Army toughened him up :)

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:35:01 GMT, Lady Interference wrote:

Seems to be the opposite of the system used here. Our teachers get filled up with university knowledge they'll never need but are never taught how to communicate it to students. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

MSB said:

Often, they are standardized. I do not know to what extent this is the case in high school; I do know that this is often done in grade school.

Which he often does, in his desk.

Makes sense, I always thought that those were rather "baby" approaches to testing save in situations where you absolutely want standardization in the application (such as CAT's or IQ tests).

Some teachers aren't academically qualified for their jobs. Of course, that doesn't apply to DiMartino, who actually does know his stuff. (He's just not *emotionally* qualified for his job).

Hee hee hee :)

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

What job would he be qualified for? I can just imagine him in a Dilbertesque office environment, complete with pointy haired boss.

Perhaps something that involves no interaction with humans whatsoever.

In article , Mike Morton wrote:

He would be emotionally qualified to be a SysAdmin.

--.\\<-H--

in my school, if you can recite the alphabet from A through F, scream loudly for no apparent reason, and demand higher salaries, you're quailified. hell, my math teacher was an art major. lucky you aren't an american high school student. don't i have it good. . .

In article ,

Usually that's exactly how it happens - it's sad. I even remember having a 9th grade history teacher who wasn't very good with the copier - he would make copies of the test from the answer key with the answers showing through. He wasn't teaching at my school by the time I was in 10th grade.

Mike Quinn [email]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:21:09 -0800, Michael J. Quinn wrote:

Copier? Some of my teachers used this ancient blue stuff with the funny smell that makes you high on the paper that you cannot write on with fountain pens, instead. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

MSB wrote:

Generically, that's called a "spirit duplicator". The common trade name was "Mimeograph". When I was in grade school, that's all there were. By junior high, we started to see photocopies. Mimeos were still pretty common at least through 1980, when I completed my academic career. Sniffing mimeo copies was a great pastime. You can't write on it with some pens because the master is coated with wax, which rubs off, little by little, onto the copies. When enough wax rubbed off, you'd get unreadable copies, which always made test taking fun.

<spoiler space> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . <continued spoiler space>

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . </spoiler space> See "Animal House" for the way tests were commonly stolen back in the Mimeograph days. Each mimeo had a master copy, which had to be discarded after copying. These were stolen from the trash.

In the case at hand, Mr. D clearly says that the lock on his file cabinet was jimmied. Someone broke in and stole either the test itself (and had someone with a brain give them the correct answers) or the answer key.

Peace Kevin

On 24 Mar 2000 01:24:05 GMT, [email] (KTrick45) wrote:

ahh, yes... the mimeograph. (smile).

Of course, that begs yet another question-- if Mr. D. knew that a test was stolen (from the jimmied lock on the cabinet), then why the hell did he give the test in the first place????

rich.

Helen: Bureaucracy is the price we pay for impartiality.

Jake: Jefferson!

Helen: Stalin.

Spoilers below...

paperpusher wrote:

Possibly to see whose grades took a sudden turn for the better. He's smart enough (and sadistic enough) to make the whole class suffer so that he can nail the guilty party. Although I'm glad he did the right thing in the end.

Note that by "the right thing" I refer to giving a new test, not to strangling Kevin. Strangling Kevin was just a bonus. ;7

-IdentityCrisis

paperpusher wrote:

At our school they called them "ditto machines". Oh, how I remember the teacher explaining that "purple blob" in question #5 is actually a "3" and not an "8"...and of course the requisite sniffing of the fresh ditto sheet as they were passed out. My high-school wasn't so cheap as to pass over the xerox machine, and so the days of the ditto passed. As must all things, I suppose.

MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

make GEORYN disappear to reply

"'Thin Thighs For Your Man.' But I don't *like* men with thin thighs" --Daria

N.P.:"Bulbs"- V a n M o r r i s o n / V e e d o n F l e e c e

In article ,

My schools used those all the way through high school, and my case I graduated in 1993. From kindergarten in 1979, when I was 4(1 month shy of 5), to jr. high and all through high school. Not in every class but some of them. Honestly the first year I saw just copies of tests and such would be in '94 my first year of college. I guess we were behind the times a little, and yes one could definitely get high if you sniffed that paper for a while, not that I'd know:-)

A.J.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:26:06 -0800, Michael J. Quinn wrote:

I actually think it was *intentional* ironies on the part of the writers.

A great Fugitive ref right there. Talk about shipper tease! (see below)

Which is why it was a cop-out ending.. but I still liked it. It was a dream after all, we can't expect Daria to have well-executed dreams. It reminded me of the ending of Murder on the Orient Express, which had a similar ending. I wonder if that was intentional.

It was really obvious to me actually.. That most of the episode was a dream I mean.

Nah, remember that she just watched Charlie's Angels on TV. That's where she got the idea to match them up with the Fashion Club. I know I would. As for DeMartino, I think pretty much everyone sees him as overstressed and bitter. Jake and Helen's roles were pretty much of a no-brainer too, although I did find their roles as police to be rather weird.

I really don't think Daria thinks that way.. she was the protagonist of the dream, so she was the detective, and thus was the center of the dream. I just feel that we're perhaps reading too much into her psyche by all these dream sequences. It gives *some* clues I suppose, but not that much.

Ohhh yeah. When I saw that, I went "Wait, I thought that whole Trent thing was over." But I see now that she's still dealing with it somewhat, although I really do feel that the crush is definitely over. Then again, things like these usually take some time to get over...

I'd say this is second best, next to Partner's Complaint.

Me too. Didn't like DTAH, but liked this ep.

That was one of the *major* flaws of DTAH. I didn't even know whether it was fantasy or reality; it was so intermingled. It was like the writers didn't know what the heck it was, and decided to just chuck everything into a blender.

MSS was different, it was a dream from the beginning, thus making it easier for them to exploit the dream world to its fullest potential.

Agreed. Most dreams are like that.

Heh. I was playing "spot the ref" all the way through. I had fun with it :)

A little higher than what I would've given it, but I agree with you that it was a quality ep.

No way! Charlie's Angels wins as the best alter-ego! I swear I rolled over with laughter at that one. BTW, Jane played Higgins, the rich British dude.

Although I loved the Magnum ref too. I went something like "What the hell is she doing wearing that... OHHH she's supposed to be Magnum P.I.!!"

Agreed.

Do you think that the writers heard our complaints about DTAH, and made this episode in response to it? It certainly seemed like it.

Cheers, Nicole Lee

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..." -- Isaac Asimov

"No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed." -- Homer Simpson

Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313,401 BB- FCD +DT q fN

Nicole Lee said:

Yes, I think it was a direct parody :)

They even did a clear dream transition. Daria lies down and starts snoring with the TV on, and you get the wavy transition effect.

They are "authorities" in Daria's life.

Which of course is the normal situation in a dream.

Trent's her best friend's sister, and her own friend too.

Upchuck as "Charlie" was clever. Especially cause "Chuck" is of course short for "Charles".

I really think they lurk on this group.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On certian newsgroups, the writers of the show actually DO come to the newsgroup. Sometimes, they even post (as in the case of one particular newsgroup) info about upcoming episodes while they're still in the works. This unfortunately has stopped at the group I'm referring to... but it DID happen.

A good way to test a theory that people are reading this stuff is to have us all obsess about something. We'd all need to post, for a long time, about one specific subject. Just pick something stupid, and start a long discussion about it. We'd all need to participate. Complain about it not being on the show and get nice and angry over it. Keep your posts kind of amusing, too. Then, if you ever see a reference to it on the show, you'll know for sure if people who work on the show actually do read this.

For example, let's all complain about never seeing Fluffy (Sandi's cat). Yes, coincidentally, it could happen without us "prompting" it. So make it specific: "I think Fluffy should get hit by a car." Let the posting begin.

Whatever.

On 22 Mar 2000 05:56:20 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I dunno... the bandwidth here can get a bit high to keep track of sometimes... I know I'm guilty of ignoring threads just to keep up with things. Try doing that *and* working on a series. Eep!

rich.

Jane: Usually when I have this dream I'm wearing pink taffeta.

In article ,

Hmmmmmm........

Thst first one was LOL funny!

It had me going for a while as well, whodunit? I was trying to figure that out throughout the ep.

I pretty much saw it right away, although I could see how it could take someone a while to actually figure it out. Also they'll never kill off a main character, at least not till season 20, hopefully!

She does feel superior, in some ways she is, her inteligence and wit, and other times a novice, any attempt at a relationship, which brings me to...

I see that too. The crush itself is gone, and the option of Trent as the relationship is not at the top of her list, she still has some feelings for him, yet, if he could mature a bit I'd think she'd try for him again. Either way Trent will somehow be involved with her "relationship" this season.

A bit of a higher grade than I expected, but agree with it and every word about how this was better than DTAH, it would be more elaborate than I'd put it, but agree completely.

Jake as Inspector Clouseau.

Agreed.

A.J.

If we assume that to be the case, then it's also interesting to note Jake, Helen and (especially) Jane's indifferant attitude towards her being executed despite being proven innocent. She apparently still doesn't feel all that close to her parents (even Helen), although she seems to be slowly getting there. But as for Jane... Apparently she still doesn't feel that she can rely on Jane as much as she did, despite what they said to each other in Partner's Complaint and Anti-social Climbers.

I hope she gets over it. I'll confess to having slight traces of 'shipper DNA in me (checks quickly to make sure Ms. Li isn't listening), but I don't think Trent would be any good for her. Problem is, the only other males anywhere near her own age don't seem to be available. Tom and Mack are both taken and Ted Dewitt-Clinton sort of blew her off to hang out with the guys. Most of the rest (Kevin, Upchuck, etc.) aren't even worth considering.

Somebody remind me; was Lurmen (from "I Don't") a blood-relative to Daria? If not, I think those two would make an excellent (if downright disturbing) couple.

-IdentityCrisis

idcrisis said:

(SPOILERS for #404 (4-43), "Murder, She Snored")
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I think you're making too much of this. Betrayal by friends is a common dream-theme; because it's a common fear. To some extent she must resent Jane's increasing absence, even if she's decided that it would be unreasonable to continue to express this resentment.

Which doesn't mean that he wouldn't *ever* be any good for her. Trent is a good man; if he could get his act together and mature he could be good for Daria. The way he is *now* though, he would become too dependent upon her and both of them would wind up resenting it.

However, we haven't seen all the guys "near her own age" even in Lawndale HS or the community. Only the ones Daria curently interacts with.

ROFL!!! Yeah, Daria and Kevin would be a mismatch. Upchuck's smart, but *way* too deluded and filthy-minded. (Sorta the problem with Foulmouth and Shirley on *Tiny Toons*) :)

Well, the question is how *close* a blood-relative. If he's only like a second or third cousin ... ?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

Seeing her parents in action may be helping her to get over him. Trent's a lot more laid back than Jake, but you're right in that he would be a dependant male and Daria knows that. I'm sure Jane doesn't realize it and wouldn't keep doing it if she did, but her constantly trying to push Daria and Trent closer together is probably the only genuinely hurtful thing she does to her.

I agree Trent has *potential,* though. But Daria's going to have enough learning to do when it comes to dating without having to babysit her boyfriend as well.

Maybe a new character will be introduced...?

Kevin: Hey, babe! Wanna make out under the bleachers after class?

Daria: <thinking fast> Um, gee Kevin, that sounds like an interesting plan. But given the usual amount of forethought you usually display, may I assume that you don't have a condom on hand?

Kevin: Huh? But, Brittany never worried about con-

Daria: I'm not Brittany. I'm sorry Kevin, but I have this deep-held belief that the two beautiful children I eventually plan to give birth to should not be forced to go through life with seventy IQ points between them. It's a religious thing.

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I can't think of anything funny to say concerning a Daria/Upchuck relationship. Just the thought of "The Rutt" putting his hands on our heroine makes my muse run to the bathroom to one-up Upchuck at his own name.

I really hope we see him again. Even setting aside a possible relationship (and I really do think he'd be the best match for Daria out of everyone we've seen so far), he's an interesting character. I like the idea of someone who out-Darias Daria.

-IdentityCrisis

[Snip!]

The problem with Ted is he didn't actually realise he'd done it.

This would seem to follow in the Tom pattern wouldn't it :)

<WWIH> Besides I thought Jane was gonna run off with Kevin :) </WWIH>

[Snip!]

Humm I feel compelled to defend Upchuck here....we havn't seen anything on the show to sugest that he is filthy minded. He probably thinks from what I can tell that he is being smooth, which of course means he's going over the top and over compensating....then again my memory as always could be suspect....

I can, it *COULD* work if Daria opened up a bit, and Charles dropped some of the "I'm the guy" act, I do see them both as quite interlectual, so they would probably beneeth the walls that both of them put up get along.

Phill.

Phill Harvery-Smith said:

I actually have a more postive opinion of Upchuck than a lot of Daria fans; I think that he's truly horny (which isn't evil IMO) and that he feels that he's "supposed" to express himself the way he does. He's totally bought into the whole porno culture, from *Playboy* on down deeper into the gutter, and must be constantly disappointed that the women around him don't respond to his clumsy advances the way women do in porno stories and films.

Of course, it's possible that he occasionally *does* meet a girl who goes for this sort of approach, though my gut instinct is that he's never actually "gotten any" (most really slutty girls wouldn't go for his type, *not at his age*). One irony here is that Upchuck would probably be totally taken advantage of by the kind of girl who *would* go for him; the obvious reason why she might want him would be for his money. Amusingly, Tiffany ("Upchuck ... ewwwwww") will probably wind up the wife or mistress of an older edition of Charles.

One thing that redeems Upchuck a bit in my eyes is that he actually does see Daria's beauty (she's the "mystery lady" on his website). The sad thing is that he fails to realize that the reason he finds her attractive is that she's totally *unlike* the porno stereotype of a woman; she's intellectual, moral, and reflects deeply upon her own course of action.

I don't think that Upchuck is evil. I think that he's absorbed an evil value system, though, and in the end he will either reject it or be corrupted by it.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

And then Tom (irony of ironies) ends up with Daria, and Brittany becomes a brain. :7

AHEM!

Quinn: <handing Daria a twenty> Here, this is a deposit from Upchuck. He wants to know if he can rent those fake boobs Dr. Shar gave you.

...Need I say more? ;7

Daria has walls. Upchuck has delusions. Of adequecy. :)

I'll grant you that a more mature and less slimy version of Charles could work, but Upchuck ain't it.

-IdentityCrisis

Hehehehe yeah lets all talk about Brittany and Trent, obessing about that should drive any Daria "staff" we have here out of the woodwork :)

Ok, that's *ONE* example. And besides perhaps he had a ligitimate reason for wanting to borrow them, ok there's no evedence to sugest that he did, but there's none to say that he didn't either.....

:)

Well people change in time...and the group (well the shipper element anyways), has pretty much decided that Daria-Trent would require a more mature Trent, so what's the difference between that and Daria-Charles, requiring a more mature Charles :)

Phill....ducks and covers...... :)

On 26 Mar 2000 11:28:20 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

Oh, yes, let's-- you know, if Trent did run off with Brittany, it would destroy just about every theory of what sort of a person Trent "really" is that I've seen on this NG. ;-)

(As an aside, I still haven't seen any of the theories proven correct, either. ;-)

Phill, Phill, Phill... *must* you ask for more examples? How about when Upchuck ditched the booth he was supposed to be minding at the flea market in order to look at girlie magazines with Mr. DeMartino? And what *was* he doing when he got that picture of Brittany and the Oakwook QB making out? For that matter, what was he doing when he was spying on Kevin and Brittany making out in TLF? And didn't he try to grab "poor" Sandi in FE?

He's a reptile. Occam's Razor.

Hee hee hee... I won't even comment... ;-)

Nice try, Phill... rich.

Quinn: People are so weird!

Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.

Paperpusher said:

Trent displayed courage in *Daria!*, and he's shown several times that he genuinely cares for Jane. We've *never* seen him do anything *bad* that couldn't be summed up under the heading of "laziness".

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On 27 Mar 2000 11:33:25 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Until I see more evidence than a few isolated actions and a few throwaway lines, I'll still reserve my judgment. Even serial killers have been known to love their mothers. Doesn't make them any less evil. NO, I'm NOT saying that Trent's evil, but worrying about your sister doesn't mean much more than that you're human. It doesn't make a huge statement about what sort of person you are-- only a total cretin would abandon his sister in a hurricane-- in fact, it would take an amazing amount of callousness to do so. I've said it before, I'll say it again-- he's still a cipher, and assuming what anyone's character is like based on the few times he's appeared on the show with substantial roles STILL doesn't prove anything to me.

I guess I'm just one of those people that doesn't like to judge folks for good or for ill until I know more about them. THEN I'll judge them. ;-)

agreeing to disagree, rich.

Quinn: People are so weird!

Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.

In article ,

Oh Idunno, he did make some comment about rock stars and models in "This Years Model", and lets face it Brittany has big assets, which he may appreciate :)

Rather like some of the far out scientific theories that you hear from time to time as well.... Humm what do you call the studdy fo Trent then ?

Yes I must :)

Ok, lack of responsibility I grant, but so would Kevin for example if he'd seen someone reading a football mag...and he don't seem to have nearly such a bad press.

Well for all we know what Upchuck himself said on the matter *may* be true, it's just that everyone assumes otherwise.

The same question could be asked of Kevin/Brittany/O'Neil.....if you notice he didn't even look down at Kevin/Brittany until they desturbed him...up until then he was probably doing what the others where doing looking for evedince of Daria/Jane's alienness or not :)

Humm ok, yes maybe a fair point....though with Sandi's character, he maybe calculated this move just to wind her up :) and unfortunatly got a kick in the goolies for his pain....

The one you forgot was :-

Brittany: Not now Kevin.. Kevin: Not now what ? Brittany looks at upchuck who smiles :)

Which I grant is an example I hadn't thought of.

<Q> The court's still out on that one :) </Q>

[Snip!]

Ok, I'm not saying Upchuck's perfect, he's not, none of them are, but I do think he get's an unfair dislike, which is maybe a sign that the character is well written. But he did for example give Daria/Jane/Quinn a lift home in "The Invitation", can you see some of the other characters doing that for example ?

Thanks :)

Phill.

Phill Harvey-Smith said:

I'm a Trent fan, but I never said he wasn't horny. Guys are turned on by girls with rather obvious charms; that doesn't mean that they want to be seriously involved with them. (They *may* want to have sex with them, but for most males that doesn't necessarily indicate any very deep attraction).

Upchuck's creepy, but I don't think he's a truly bad person. He's creepy in a way that teenage boys often are.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On 27 Mar 2000 06:26:51 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

Hey, flimsier theories have been built around less data than that. I'm willing to endorse your Trent/Brittany theory-- cuz hey, women love guitar players. ;-)

<snip>

Yes, but he ditched it to read girlie magazines...

Maybe because at the time he was engaging in blackmail? ;-) However you cut it, that's sleazy.

Not exactly-- Kevin and Brittany were going at it, and then you hear Upchuck's voice from above, "Grrr... Que Passionato!" He was watching the whole time.

Nah, I think he subscribes to my friend's dad's old theory-- if you ask enough women, eventually one will say yes.

Heh-- see what I mean?

Not from my POV. Guilty of being a reptile. ;-)

You know he was doing it to try and hit on them... that's how his type operates...

Remember, Upchuck's written to be a stereotypical sleazy teen character-- if he was supposed to be more than that, we would've gotten a hint from the writers. He's used as a foil or obstacle for the other characters to score off of or avoid or otherwise handle. Unfortunately for him, the show's not called "Upchuck," otherwise we might see his deep caring for his fellow humans. ;-) Sorry, Upchuck fans, but I don't see him becoming a saint anytime soon. ;-)

As for other characters under discussion (i.e. Trent), the jury's still out on whether the writers are going to turn him into a deeper character or just a generic slacker. I'm beginning to suspect the latter, unfortunately. There really haven't been any positive Trent character development eps-- his only chances haven't shown him to be that swift in that department.

I'm NOT saying that I'm against developing Trent into a better person, I'm just saying that based on what I've seen so far on the show, I'm not holding my breath-- especially after season 3.

... but Upchuck's still reptilian. ;-)

rich.

Jane: You know, I don't know why people say we have a bad attitude.

Daria: Screw 'em.

In article ,

Heheheh ok then :)

[Snip!]

On the subject of Upchuck, we'll just have to agree to differ.

Phill.

On 27 Mar 2000 06:26:51 +0100, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

I must add that a lot of guys who are otherwise pretty nice have a pornographic habit. Abandoning the booth was wrong, but I do believe the choice between minding a booth and scoring some brownie points with your history teacher is actually a relatively tough choice.

Okay Phill, you're getting desperate here. ;) Perhaps Upchuck was simply trying to "get some dirt" on Brittney for one reason or another.

Actually, yeah, Rich is right. Upchuck is a lizard. ;)

Even I might have done that. ;) Actually, probably not, but I gotta hand it to Chuck; he's got balls.

As a compulsive ridegiver, I must say that Upchuck definately had ulterior motives there. There truely is nothing more fun than giving a girl I like a ride home. Given Upchuck's lack of particularity, this means nearly anyone was a fair target.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:57:15 -0600, [email] wrote:

LOL! That's brilliant. MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:57:15 -0600, [email] wrote:

Can we remove these if the conversation steers away from spoiler info? (I'll leave them this time while waiting for an answer)

Only financially.

Emotionally, he's as distant as she tries to be.

Which in essence means he's bad for her in the very way that would be most appealing to her.

(Snip, on Lurman.)

I don't.

Glenn Olson said:

That can be a very important thing in a marriage, or for that matter serious love affair.

I think his distance is partially armor ... but the tragedy is that his armor is thicker than hers. He would be quite capable of passively letting a relationship fall to pieces, even if he in truth cared about it very much. He really has absorbed his mother's self-destructive inertia when it comes to dealing with people, more than he may realize.

Though if he matures he may learn to act decisively. Trent is essentially a good man, hamstrung by bad examples.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

On 24 Mar 2000 08:35:33 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

They'd have to move to Shelbyville :-) MSB

---- They couldn't conquer the world. Now they're out to corrupt our kids! Dirty Drawings from Deutschland...Next on

On 24 Mar 2000 08:35:33 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Oh yeah. Dreams are usually based on your fears. Otherwise why would some people dream of dying, or of falling.. Certainly not because they actually *want* to. I myself have dreamt of my parents or boyfriend dying.. I've literally shocked myself out of sleep. My death, not so frightening. But deaths of loved ones? It scares the hell out of me.

However, I have doubts that Trent will catch on *that* quickly. He may acknowledge that he has to shape up, but as to whether he will actually follow through with it.... well, it'll take something really major for that to happen, IMO. Maybe if he's faced with the prospect of losing her for good?

And even if he does shape up, who's to say that Daria will accept him back that quickly? She has already been disillusioned by him, the crush is already gone. It'll take some pretty heavy damage control to get him back in her good books. If a relationship *does* take place, it'll likely be a long, drawn-out process - and who's to say that they won't break up in the long run? It's really iffy at the moment.

I'm not shipper or anti-shipper.. I'm just realistic :)

Cheers, Nicole Lee

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..." -- Isaac Asimov

"No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed." -- Homer Simpson

Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313,401 BB- FCD +DT q fN

Nicole Lee said:

Yes. I think that the semi-random activity of the brain hits on thoughts you've had a lot; some of them are fears at the back of your mind.

Indeed. You die, the pain's over for you. Someone you love dies, the pain persists for many years.

Possibly. The storyline could go either way. I do believe that Trent truly loves Daria; I think that she's opened his eyes to the possibility of something better than the ordinary and mundane. But bad habits are hard to break, and Trent has a lot of them.

I think that if Trent were about to lose Daria, Jane would try to warn him. I think that one reason Jane loves Daria so is that she's also opened *Jane's* eyes to the possibility of self-improvement; I think that Jane's life would be taking much darker and nastier turns around now if it hadn't been for Daria's good influence.

Very true. I think she still does care a lot for him, but he'll have to prove that he really wants to change for the better in order for her to be willing to get involved with him.

That's one possible (tragic) conclusion. More tragic in the short run for Daria, but in the long run for Trent.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

In article , [email] wrote:

I don't believe it was ever said which family he belonged to, Brian's(the groom) or Daria's.

A.J.