Read this first! Guidance for posting messages

I guess I'll post this until someone finds a way to automate the process. ------

This is an automated posting to save you embarrassment. Please read it before posting to this group any message that contains references to an episode from Series Three of Daria (the series now showing on MTV).

About 30% of the people who read this newsgroup live outside the USA, and won't be able to see the new episodes for some time. Because we want them to enjoy the new series as much as we're doing, we have chosen to adopt some rules to follow if we are posting a message that gives away details that might spoil their enjoyment of an episode.

We invite you to comply with these rules, to avoid the embarrassment of discovering that you have spoiled another fan's future enjoyment of Daria.

So, if you think that something in your message *might* spoil someone else's enjoyment of an episode, when eventually they get to see it, please note that:

(1) Your subject header should contain a warning in one of these
formats:
    (Series 3 Spoiler)
    (s3 Spoiler)
OR should contain the episode number in the #3NN format, for example:
    #301
   if you don't know the episode number, you can use:
    #3??

AND

(2) The word "Spoiler!" and forty lines of space should precede any material within the post that may spoil the enjoyment of an episode for anyone who has yet to see it.

(3) A post which contains general discussion as well as material that may spoil an episode need not include a warning in the subject header, if, and only if, the general discussion comes first, followed by a warning (such as "Spoiler: #301) and forty lines of spoiler space before the material that may spoil an episode.

If you would like to start a discussion about the contents of this automated posting, please don't reply to it, but instead start a new thread with the subject "Spoiler rules."

Thank you for your co-operation; your fellow fans appreciate it.

(Written by Martin Sylvester)

On 18 Feb 1999 21:22:22 GMT, [email] (Happydude) wrote:

And I'll say it again: "Isn't this a little... bureaucratic?"

If/when I discuss an episode, I will put the episode number and title into the subject line in whatever manner I see fit. I will put the words "SPOILER ALERT" in the subject in any damn format I please. The number of blank lines will be "whatever I think will do the job". In other words, I will follow the rules of COMMON COURTESY, not some red tape nightmare that sucks the fun out of the process.

Okay, rant's over. Please continue with your normal insanity as scheduled. :-)

Martin (to send e-mail, remove the "nospam" from my e-mail address) ---- "Don't worry. Today it's brains, tomorrow pierced tongues, then the next day, pierced brains." - Jane Lane ---- Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria! http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/

Too late, you all had your chance to vote for me.

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:49:45 -0500, Jeg7777 wrote:

Who needs to vote? This is Usenet; I'll do whatever I damn well please. :-)

Martin (to send e-mail, remove the "nospam" from my e-mail address) ---- "Don't worry. Today it's brains, tomorrow pierced tongues, then the next day, pierced brains." - Jane Lane ---- Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria! http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/

In article ,

Anarchy, anarchy!!!! :) Forgive my naivete, or ignorance of Usenet protocol, but if you click on a message that says "Spoiler" that you don't want to see, do you really deserve the spoiler space?

[email] wrote in message ...

deserve

The whole point of the discussion, the proposals, and the vote, was to agree a form of guidance to people who come *new* to the ng as the new season progresses, and who might not realise that many of us will not see s3 for some time, or who might not know anything about spoilers. I didn't - my plan was simply to unsubscribe to atd until the new season's over (may yet do that). Others were kind enough to suggest it, and I cobbled together a synthesis of the various ideas that came up in discussion; I can't remember the rationale for "Spoiler" headers AND spoiler space. Was it for those who wouldn't recognise what "spoiler" in a header signified? Whatever.

You could have submitted a proposal of your own, suggesting spoiler headers OR spoiler space; you didn't, so we couldn't vote on it.

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

Sorry, I guess I could've toned down the sarcasm a bit. I was taking a break from trying to stretch a research paper out to its required length, and in kind of a frazzled mood. I was really just asking. I'm perfectly willing to use them both, but I was just wondering why.

[email] wrote in message ...

break

I remember that feeling <g>. Conciseness was a feature of my papers, and for the particular prof who was reputed to mark essays by weighing them, I would wind up the margin space and the line spacing, and type/print on extra thick recycled paper. ;-) ("Type/print:" my wp was a daisywheel typewriter interfaced to a Sinclair Spectrum +3 attached to a ten pound (value, not weight!) secondhand 20" black & white TV)

This is the scenario. Leslie is using a newsreader that doesn't handle filtering well (or she doesn't know how to use it). Her m/o is to click on the first unread message in a group, read a message, then work through the messages by hitting the key for "Skip to next unread message." That's how she's read ngs for months.

So she opens atd, ignores "s3 spoiler: Kevin's problem in #302," and clicks the first message without a spoiler warning: "The music in 'Malled.'".

She keys Ctrl-U for next unread, and follows the thread. after the third message, she keys Ctrl-U, and reads, "I was so amazed that Kevin & Brittany eloped; but it was so funny in the last scene when Daria got them to come home by..."[etc.].

The next unread message was the first message of a new thread, but Leslie couldn't see that with the "read message" window filling the screen and the message list invisible. Too late. It's spoiled that ep.

Now, we could say, Leslie *should* change the way she reads newsgroups, and always exit a thread after reading each single message, then re-open the message list, then select manually the next message in the thread, then open it. There are other m/os we could tell her to adopt.

But we're trying to make it easy for people!

Martin.

Who's Leslie?

-Shez.

Shez wrote in message ...

Okay, I'll bite. <g> I like to give examples a name, instead of "Let us assume there is someone who... this person... this person... our assumed user..."

I used "Leslie" because AFAIK we don't have a Leslie on atd. Not as a poster that is; there's probably a lurker called Leslie lining her walls with aluminium foil even as I type ("How does he know my name? How did how know that's how I use my newsreader? Where can I get a Tempest-compliant PC?"). ;-)

Martin.

OK, gotcha. Mine doesn't work that way, so I didn't know that could happen.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

I'm taking news writing and a lit seminar at the same time, so I'm required to stretch in one class, and be concise in another. I spent most of the last night rooting through books for quotes. Yes, quotes: the collagen of research papers.

[email] wrote:

I have to ask: is the term 'spoiler' actually in use in the real world? I never encountered it before Usenet, and it was quite a while before I figured out what it meant.

In article ,

deserve

Not really, at least not in this definition. (Hey Ppusher: Check your OED. Is the Usenet definition of "spoiler" listed?) It's one of those rare computer terms that means exactly what you'd think: something that "spoils" the episode for someone who hasn't seen it before.

Chris Majors Keeper of the alt.tv.daria FAQ: http://www.auburn.net/~cwmajors/dariafaq.htm

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:49:45 -0500, Jeg7777 wrote:

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'll try not to be helpful in the future

No, no, no...I'm not offended! Please don't think I'm offended! I knew I should have put one of those smiley things at the end of that! Gah, Gah, Dammit! :-)

On 19 Feb 1999 01:21:09 GMT, [email] (Happydude) wrote:

No, keep doing so, for the newbies sakes. Martin's just being a... a... a silly guy. Martin can continue doing what he pleases; we trust his judgement. But, a little notice to newcomers about spoilers can't hurt anthing.

"Martin J. Pollard" wrote:

You do what you like; the rules are there for the people who can't follow the rules of common courtesy so we can flame them for a better reason than just being rude. :)

On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:49:01 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:

I'm very very sorry. I didn't mean to suck the fun out of anything. I love the show and this newsgroup and I would never dream of destroying either for anybody. I'm sorry for starting this thread. I'm sorry for creating a "red tape nightmare." Martin, I'm sorry I upset you. I am very ashamed of what I have done here today. I have insulted everyone's intelligence and I have made an idiot of myself. sorry

On 19 Feb 1999 02:14:47 GMT, [email] (Happydude) wrote:

Nothing for you to be sorry about, Happydude. I was ranting about the bureaucratic nature of this particular proposal *long* before you reposted it. <grin> You didn't do anything wrong, so just relax and have fun!

Martin (to send e-mail, remove the "nospam" from my e-mail address) ---- "Don't worry. Today it's brains, tomorrow pierced tongues, then the next day, pierced brains." - Jane Lane ---- Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria! http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/

"Martin J. Pollard" wrote:

I can't remember what "bureaucratic" means now.....argh, my brain's all sort of fuzzy. That's probably because it's ten to 3 in the morning. Bloody insomnia....

On 18 Feb 1999 18:35:12 PST, [email] (Martin J. Pollard) wrote:

Actually I do feel that I should appologize for my irrational behavior last night. I didn't get any sleep wednesday night and the next day work was more hectic than I had hoped. The combination of these two things and my unfortunate brain chemisrty left me in a foul mood. However I think I'll leave the details of this spoiler business to folks with thicker skin than mine. Now I'm going to dig up my dictionary and look up this thing you call "fun." I hope it's easy to prepare or at least microwavable, I'm hungry *now* and I don't want to sit around all night cooking fun.

Happydude wrote in message ...

See Shez's pages (the Last Stop Caf�) for microwaveable fun!

Thanks for posting the "rules," Happydude. Martin's wrath was aimed at my proposal, not at you for reposting it. It did win the vote, after all, and I appreciate your concern in posting the rules before we drowned under the anticipated flood of unprotected spoilers!

Thanks to those who've chosen to protect potentially spoiling postings. I appreciate it, and I'll wager other non-US fans do too.

I can understand, Happydude, why you might not want to post the "rules" again, though I don't imagine for a second that Martin's going to vent his wrath every time it appears. He had a point to make, and he's made it, forcefully. It's not a personal thing (as I see it) but an expression (I think) of the degree to which Martin treasures the anarchic, *self*-regulatory ethos of Usenet: if I've misrepresented Martin's views, I apologise and invite his correction.

I hoped that my proposal was an invitation to self-regulation for those who choose to protect the future enjoyment of fellow fans, but that's not (I guess) how it looked where Martin sits. In retrospect, perhaps I should have been less concerned about wasting bandwidth and come up with a proposal that made the intended flavour of the posting clearer, albeit more verbosely.

Another hindsight: maybe the vote should have had another option: don't post any guidance at all, and let the Limeys and Ozzies piss off if they get irritated by newbies spoiling eps for them. Don't think it quite captures the atmosphere of atd, though. ;-) I'm not attributing this view to anyone, BTW.

Since Happydude would prefer not to, I'll take on the task of weekly posting of this guidance, if there's no-one willing and able to set up an autopost. I'll append some comments of my own, and I'll amend the subject header, in the hopes of correcting some of the shortcomings and making it clear that it's for newbies like me who've not come across spoiler custom before (I've been on Usenet since the 80s, but never before in a group where spoilers have been an issue - hence my first intention of simply unsubbing). If I'm at my desk on a Wednesday night (GMT), that's when I'll post it, and once I've come up with a suitable subject header I'll keep it the same each week so people can killfile (filter) it and not have to d/l the "rules".

Martin.

On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:12:16 -0000, "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

Did I come across as wrathful? (Is that even a word?) If so, I am sorry. I did make the point that I wanted to make -- that we are all capable of handing spoilers without being required to follow a strict set of guidelines -- but I'm now pretty sure I could've been a little more diplomatic about it. :-)

I'm really not like that! Honest! <grin>

Seriously, no, I don't go off at the slightest provocation... not usually, anyway. And I really don't see anything archaic about the self-regulatory nature of Usenet (as you put it). Like I said above, I just think that we're all mature enough and capable enough to handle the spoiler situation without having to go through a checklist of Things That Must Be Done. As others have pointed out, alt.tv.daria participants are generally a cut above the average Usenet poster in terms of being reasonable and rational, which is why I believed (and still believe) that a short, simple set of guidelines would do the job just as well as, or better than, a long, convoluted procedure.

And as someone else pointed out, a complicated procedure invites others to abuse people who don't follow it, which would end our streak of being reasonable and rational. ;-)

Martin (to send e-mail, remove the "nospam" from my e-mail address) ---- "Don't worry. Today it's brains, tomorrow pierced tongues, then the next day, pierced brains." - Jane Lane ---- Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria! http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/

Martin J. Pollard wrote in message ...

It is a word! ISTM Happydude was more dude than happy....

I agree with all three points! You did make your point; *we* are all capable, etc.; and, er..... ;-)

I

Hey, I believe you! 8-)

Anarchic, not archaic. <g> Though it's started an interesting train of thought. In a person's development, self-regulation comes with growing maturity. Is that true for the development of a society? Can we use the term society to describe Usenet? Is self-regulation something that belongs to Usenet's past, or its future? Hmmm...

Perish the thought!

Martin.

On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:38:24 -0000, "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

Actually that's usually always true. My mental state usually alternates between vacant, sleepy, manic (that's when I'm the happiest), and asleep. My nick is taken from Homer Simpson's "Happy Dude" telemarketing scam (episode 4F01 "Lisa's date with destiny"). My nick will be very acurate every Wednesday night for the next 5 or 6 weeks. :-)

Regular posters are familiar with the situation that prompted us to use spoilers, they aren't the target audience for Martin's guidelines. The target audience is "newbies" who don't know about spoilers. Chances are if they don't know about spoilers then they probably have no idea that Daria is seen in other countries and wont see season 3 for awhile. The reason I posted the guidlines was because I saw that there were a handful of people writing posts about "Daria!" without any spoilers at all. atd is growing and will continue to grow throughout season 3 (4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10) it would be a shame if we lost more people than we gained because a newbie did'nt know about spoilers.

Martin P: If you have an opinion to share then please share it in whatever manner you please. Use whatever tone you wish to express that opinion. If some wing-nut, like me, takes it the wrong way....oh well. Would the comedy of Bill Hicks have the same impact if he called people in the advertizing and marketing indutry "icky bad people" instead of "satan's spawn filling the world with bile and garbage?" Would Jimi Hendrix have the same impact if he played the clarinet instead of manipulating a wall of Marshalls with his guitar and an army of electronic devices?

<unsnipped>

I dont see Martin's proposal that way at all. It simply calls for a spoiler warning in the header if the *entire* body of the post could give away an episode and spoiler space before the spoiling text. It didn't say you *must* follow it by the letter or even use it at all.

I'd keep re-posting them then, or perhaps e-mailing those who post without spoilers. There are quite a few spoiler-less threads going.

Martin J. Pollard wrote in message ...

Martin, you're not the target audience for that posting!

The whole point of the discussion, the proposals, and the vote, was to agree a form of guidance to people who come *new* to the ng as the new season progresses, and who might not realise that many of us will not see s3 for some time; or who might not know anything about spoilers. I'd never heard of spoilers - my plan was simply to unsubscribe to atd until the new season's over (may yet do that). Others were kind enough to suggest it, and I cobbled together a synthesis of the various ideas that came up in discussion, and a "how to," for the assistance of new users (which is more prescriptive than necessary - eg, 40 lines - for clarity and conciseness). You don't need a "How to!"

The big advantage of a common format, for those who choose to adopt it, is that it helps those of us using filters to filter out "s3" or "series 3" or "#3" spoilers, while being able, if we choose, to leave others visible (eg, the preview spoiler). If you choose to help us, thank you! 8-)

(BTW, the bit about starting another thread was because I assumed most people, having read the guidance once, would filter it out from then onwards!)

Martin.

At least it's not official.

-John

Quite right, just a friendly reminder. Of course anybody who constantly violates the unofficial policy, I will hunt down and turn into human jerky. ;)

Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Gun control is more than just being able to hit your target. It' also about having a nice, tight shot grouping.