Reading some of your posts it seems that some of you would like to see Daria find herself a boyfriend. I can understand this but I would much rather see Daria and Jane realize their unspoken attraction to each other and admit they are bisexual. I mean why go the tried and tested way, which bears no relevance to sexuality in the 90's, when you could push the boundaries a little.
Daria and Dating
S03E01 Daria!retroSep 5, 1999, 12:24 AM ET7 months later167 posts by 36 posters
167 posts
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:29:59 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
Is this the same logic that the original Star Trek slash fic writers used to justify their contention that Kirk and Spock were secretly homosexual lovers? ("Oh, my God! In 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture,' Spock took Kirk's hand and said something about feelings! That's proof enough for me!" Puh-leeze...)
"If you look hard enough, you'll eventually see exactly what you want to see, even if your mind has to invent it." Keep this truism in mind when you watch the show, and you won't be bothered by these strange little fantasies any longer.
Martin (send all e-mail to "[email]") +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/You seem afraid that Jane or Daria may be lesbian/bisexual. That really sucks. Why would lesbianism/homosexualit be a "strange little fantasy" anyway? Damn homophobe.
Stimpy
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 02:04:43 -0700, stimpsy wrote:
Oh, yeah, that's exactly what it is, all right. Boy, you certainly have me pegged.
It does, but precisely *which* statement sucks (and who made it) is not quite what you had in mind.
Gee, I dunno. Possibly because of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary through all three seasons of the show? Nah, that can't be it...
Keep conclusions away from this guy, everyone. He apparently likes to jump to them much too quickly.
Martin (send all e-mail to "[email]") +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:58:17 -0400, [email] (Martin J. Pollard) wrote:
Mindless name-calling by people we barely know on one of the most respected members of the Daria online community? Who's gonna win this one?
Besides, as far as I know, I am the only damn homophobe on ATD
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
yeah those guys don't even rate any "FRESH FISH"!
every group needs at least one so we can feel superior. :>}
First of all, you do not *dare* condescend to talk about that which you do not know. Martin and the rest of the people whom you've been labelling as "homophobes" are far from being that (except Kyle, and whose business is it that he might be that? are we suddenly in the persecuting business? 'cos otherwise he is very friendly).
Secondly, you keep on bringing up the same "argument" that anyone who cannot fathom a lesbian relationship between Daria and Jane must be a homophobe and that their supposed "hatred" must be the reason why they're not seeing it. Haven't you ever heard of CHARACTER INTEGRITY? It's not in Daria's nor Jane's characters to be lesbians, or even bisexuals. I know this because I trust Alli's judgement on this and when she says someone's not got a bit of bisexuality in them that someone is *not* a bisexual.
Third, you seem to be wanting attention so you've decided to start up a little flame war here on this newsgroup. Well, let me tell you this...no one who is considered a regular (poster or lurker) will ever be involved in a flame war. So if you think we're going to argue with each other because of this then you're dead wrong. You're the one who's the oddball then. And you're the one who doesn't even *deserve* responses.
Get out of my sight. You've managed to sicken me.
Diane
On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:53:07 -0500, Hallucinating Elvis Lady wrote:
Careful, Diane. I doubt that this "person" has the mental capability to parse proper English... or any English, for that matter. :-)
*blush*
Diane, the posts by yourself and others makes me appreciate all the more the level of intelligence and perception displayed by the regular participants of this newsgroup. The fact that this "person" whom you are trying to educate (futilely, I might add) did not "get it" only reinforces it.
Nah. Kyle just likes to get a rise out of people. I can respect that, most of the time. :-)
And once again, THANK YOU for getting the point I was trying to make. I guess I should've reduced it to the "Look! MTV show! Funny!" level in order that "people" like this "person" you're talking to could get it...
I'm certainly going to be getting my $29 out of Agent and its kill file, that's for sure. <grin>
Martin (send all e-mail to "[email]") +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/In article ,
Hallucinating Elvis Lady
persecuting business? 'cos
people. I can respect
That's just not true. Believe it or not, it is possible to have legitimate moral convictions opposite your own.
Martin J. Pollard wrote:
That's all fine and well, but do you realize that this kind of post is actively encouraging the type of behaviour you are complaining about?
Don't tell anyone I told you this, but its better to ignore these kind of posts than start a new thread about them
posts
Exactly people like <snip> just want to see their name in type. Best to not even respond.
Stimpsy said:
I think that Daria and Jane being gay is a rather odd little fantasy, given that there's been no indication of it on the show.
ROFL! Obviously "hiding" it from their writers as well! :)
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Martin J. Pollard wrote:
Well actually Martin who are we to know what passes between a man and a Vulcan, those mind weld thingies can get pretty intense and guaranteed their not thinking about their shopping lists.And while we wax on Star Trek, it was the first mainstream T.V show that casted a black woman and an Asian guy without making it pivotal issue or giving them subordinate characters. It would be great to see the same sort of initiative taken in a popular mainstream cartoon like Daria!. The only problem I can see is that geeky boys like you will get their knickers in a knot because their meeting-a-girl-like-Daria/Jane fantasies have been thwarted. Conversely this could also have the opposite effect, cue the lesbian porn music.
In terms of perception... we always see what we want to see anyhow. Perception, after all, is subjective. And why is bisexuality, according to you, a strange little fantasy?It may be strange to you, but it isn't to allot of people... perception remember.
Affinity said:
Perhaps not shopping lists, but why sex with one another? It's not like shopping and sex are the only two possible topics of conversation :)
Yes. And featured the first inter-racial kiss on TV ... even if it was courtesy of Evil Alien Telekinesis.
Yes, but it would be awful to see three seasons of careful characterization tossed away for a cheap thrill. Why not pick someone whom we have no reason to believe IS purely heterosexual to be homosexual, lesbian or bisexual? Such as:
Andrea (whom has never shown any interest in any males).
Quinn (who as far as we know doesn't really do anything with her dates).
Other FC members (who also date guys just for status, as far as we can tell).
Kevin (who has sometimes shown some distinctly ... um, odd ... leanings)
The Three J's (who pursue an unattainable female, and hang out together all the time).
This sounds like the classic prelude to arguing in favor of the illogical.
It's "strange" given the established personnae of Daria and Jane.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message ...
courtesy
Perhaps on *American* TV. ISTR seeing, in a TV documentary, something about the first inter-racial kiss on a UK TV play in the late 50s or early 60s: I'm under the impression this was before "Star Trek."
Martin.
<snip star trek stuff>
to
as:
tell).
actually their is a fanfic called Friends are so Alarming by The UAWCPM which features this very thing.
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
Somebody should do a survey recording the amount of time the average american teenager spends thinking about sex and food. I guarantee it will be most of the time, well least from my own experience anyway. The basic principals of homosapiens were based on our need to eat and reproduce, I don't know about Vulcans though.
Ooooh boogy boogy... gotta love those Evil Aliens they know where its at!
Andrea has never shown any real interest in anything.
Yes an episode on Kevie the Rent Boy would be most amusing, Brittany could be his pimp.
If there was a fundamental truism- the fact that perception is subjective would be it.I love paradox.
Affinity said:
Well, she bet on DiMartino's fall in the roller hockey game. And she attended the readings at "Cafe Disaffecto".
LOL
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 14:44:07 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
Here's your problem. I can see it right here. You don't want Daria and Jane to have sexual feelings for each other because you think it would be an interesting plot, or because it is in line with their character.
You are using it to push your social agenda. Basically, you have turned Daria into political fodder.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
"" wrote:
the only problem i can see would be that it would stop being "a show about a sarcastic unpopular teenage girl" and become "a show about a teenage lesbian".
wrote in message ...
A "boy" wearing "knickers"? Yay! Now that's proper sexual deviation :)
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:29:59 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
I'd like to see Daria in any sort of relationship... straight, bi, or gay.
Long as it's not with Upchuck.
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 04:26:34 GMT, [email] (Lone Wolf) wrote:
Upchuck's my first choice!
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
On 5 Sep 1999 20:07:40 GMT, [email] (Howling Lunatic) wrote:
The secret's out! You're an Upchuck shipper!
"Upchuck?! Ewww...!" - Tiffany, "Jake of Hearts"
Martin (send all e-mail to "[email]") +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 16:49:37 -0400, [email] (Martin J. Pollard) wrote:
Secret? I've been campaigning for this for over a year.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
In article ,
or
Ooooh oooh oooh! Can I join the "Upchuck Shipper Brigade" too? :) He reminds me of one of my good friends that I tease constantly...and Daria and Upchuck would be just "too cute" together!
-----> Violator's Toad <-----
Lone Wolf wrote:
Why?
Agreed.
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 14:49:05 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
Why not?
I watch X-Files. I'm a shipper. I watch Daria. I'm a shipper.
I have no luck with women. I am a rather horridly ugly example of a human being and women can't stand the sight of me. As a result, I must live vicariously through TV shows. Good enough? I'd be happy to send you the URL to my web page if you doubt my sincerity. The photos on there should be suitable to make uyou throw up.
Muh huh.
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
Lone Wolf wrote:
Ummm i watch both but i don't know what a shipper is, does that make me a shipper in ignoramus?
There's nothing better than a good vertical hurl, post the url then.
On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 18:29:49 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
Shipper = Relationshipper = you desire to see main characters in a TV show start a dating/sexual/etc. relationship.
I shall email it. I'd rather not have some innocent child stumble across the URL and unknowningly click on it, only to end up in an emergency room with terminal blindness and vomiting.
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
Making Daria and Jane bi or lesbian would make the already scarce show non-existent. I like the show too much for it to disappear!
In article ,
Hey! You decided to take my advice and check out our little NG I see. Nice to have you, please stay.
cheryl
On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 05:44:08 GMT, wicka_chick wrote:
Is this a fishable person?
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
In article ,
show
Quite, Kyle. Fish away!
cheryl
On 12 Sep 1999 15:39:31 GMT, [email] (Howling Lunatic) wrote:
IMO, no. Give someone WebTV and they'll eat fresh fish for a day. Give someone a real computer and they'll eat fresh fish for life.
In article ,
WebTV isn't that bad for just browsing for various information, the problem is that you have no real way to save any pictures or other such items without saving the whole page, and with very little memory for what you DO want to save. You also can't play much multimedia stuff except mostly for .wav files and some mpeg's(I think). It's not bad,(not great, though) but for me at least it wll have to do until I can save up the money for a real computer.
BTW did anyone else notice today's showing (9/13) the credits weren't talked over, at least in the eastern time zone, how about the rest of the country? If so this makes 2 consecutive airings (this and the 9/1 10:00pm showing of LM) where no one has gabbed over the credits. Let us all bow our heads and pray it stays this way.
A.J.
Reading some of your posts it seems that some of you would like to see
That's right. Everyone who has a close friend of the same gender should realize their unspoken attraction to each other and admit they're bisexual.
Quinn is right. People ARE so weird.
Jeg7777 wrote:
Exactly, the undercurrents of desire are strange and intangible. Only when they are acted out do they shrug off the inhibitive factors of the psyche slash society, I'm glad you agree with me.Freud would indeed be proud.
Huh? How do you figure I agree with you? I was being sarcastic, but I guess it wasn't obvious enough.
(This means YOU.)
Huh?
What he said *REALLY* went over your anal retentive little head.
Dumb tuna.
Stimpy
Mute Tuna. Blind Tuna. Actually fairly tasty tuna, tho, even if cute l'il dolphins are killed in catching it
Greg Pallis wrote:
Scientific tests have proven that tuna is in fact tasteless, and the 'tuna taste' we all have come to know and love is in fact refried dolphin bits.
"" wrote:
why are people so against eating dolphins anyway? most people don't seem to mind eating pigs, who aren't much less intelligent.
"endless, nameless" wrote:
It's simple-- Dolphins are cute. Pigs aren't.
rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
i hate dolphins. they aren't remotely cute. and i bet the only reason they aren't covered in shit like pigs are, is because they live in the sea and the water washes it off. :)
On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:37:34 +0100, "endless, nameless" wrote:
This is write up there with "She cried when I hit her. All my friends do. Wusses."
I'm gonna make these two one of my sig files.
Kyle
He complained when I hit him. All my friends do. Wusses.
i hate dolphins. they aren't remotely cute. and i bet the only reason they aren't covered in shit like pigs are, is because they live in the sea and the water washes it off.
lol. i'm flattered. no, really.
:)
"endless, nameless" wrote:
why do you think they're smiling all the time? well, that and because they get to swim around naked all day and don't have to go to work or school, for that matter. bastards.
rich.
Jane: You're a twisted little cruller, ain't'cha?
they have to spend all day catching fish or whatever it is they eat, though. and most oceans are a bit chilly.
endless, nameless wrote in message news:[email]...
because
or
There's a reason the dolphins are smiling all the time, the little sex maniacs. That's all they seem to do. There have been numerous stories circulating about their sexual exploits. A woman swimming with them was molested. They say they swim alongside ships at sea so they can masturbate against them. All they think of is sex. Maybe they really are intelligent.
"R. K. Henry" wrote:
For you, maybe, but dolphins have a thick layer of fat that keeps them warm in all sorts of oceans. Personally, I'd rather be a dolphin around, oh, say Florida, where the water's warm . (I've seen a few from the beach in NC, too., out in the Gulf Stream.)
Yet another reason to hate dolphins, I guess. ;-)
rich.
Jane: You're a twisted little cruller, ain't'cha?
Dolphin wrote:
<snip>
Come now-- you know I was only being sarcastic. or jealous, or whatever. ;-)
rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
I've heard this claim before, but I don't buy it. I've met many pigs in my life, and none have struck me as particularly intelligent.
a sure sign of their intelligence.
Bob Ohler of writes:
A while back some researchers gave a couple of pigs intelligence tests using adapted video game controls where they moved the joysticks with their snouts to perform pattern matching tasks in return for food rewards. They scored better than monkeys who had been given similar tasks.
-Shez.
Bob Ohler wrote in message ...
up on the dinner table-so I would guess that they weren't smart enough to find a way out of certain death-or to be aware that they were destined for certain death, anyways. And could someone please explain the Daria code thing to me please!!! Thanks a bunch!!! :) the sister formerly known as Kristi Ohlervic
-- And could someone please explain the Daria code
It's a funkadelic signature-enhancer. You answer some question about your personality, your thoughts on Daria and various other things at http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Taping/3017/ and you generate a code as you go, and at the end you have an exciting codeblock to show to people.
Just follow the instructions and you can't really go wrong. If you get stuck, mail me, or someone else who has a code.
stimpsy wrote:
No, what he said was moronic. But not as moronic as what you spewed.
<plonk on both of you!>
stimpsy wrote:
I bet you don't even know what a cult really is. Stupid idiot.
And I *said* to get out of my *face*!
Turning into Mr DeMartino now (scary),
Diane
Oh, brother. He calls himself brother? Like Brother Ted?
on-topic at last,
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
Jeg7777 wrote:
Ohhhh you were being sarcastic, I guess you rapier wit bounced way over my head.Boy do I feel stupid...
Im shocked, I'm not weird, I'm normal... uh huh.
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 15:25:12 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
Freud was a flaming idiot. Freud's theories are based entirely on his interaction with his patients (who tended to be middle-aged victorian women) of a specific culture. They can't be extended to an entire species.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
In article , [email] wrote:
<snips the cool signature thingy>
The reason I like Daria so much is because she is the only character on TV I relate to. Actually, she's probably the only person in the whole world I relate to right now, and that's pretty sad. :) We have many similarities that I won't even begin to go into right now, but bisexuality is definately NOT one of them. In my humble opinion, I would be somewhat disturbed by your proposed change in plot line and would probably be less likely to watch the show. I appologize for my apparent homophobia, but I'll just blame it on upbringing right now. Besides, if you think Daria and Jane are bi just because they're close friends, what about Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble? Betty and Wilma? Charlie Brown and Linus? Scooby and Shaggy (bi-species as well!!!)? Doug and Skeeter? Bevis and Butthead? No offense, but your logic is a tad flawed...
What's the deal with the sudden obsession with turning "Daria" into a pot-headed, sex-crazed soap opera? If you want to see a cartoon like that, it looks like Downtown may be headed in that direction. (I only saw one ep though...so I can't really tell.)
-----> Violator's Toad <-----
Violator's Toad wrote:
I just had a rush of sounds from the past, and now I can put an entirely new spin on them. And I will refrain from making any salacious comments on Scooby and Shaggy. ;-)
No, "Downtown" is aimed more at the "Toy-Hoarding Loser" demographic. ;-) I like it, even though I don't hoard toys anymore. It's actually a pretty good toon-- well-written, cool character design, neat fantasy sequences, good NYC feel to it, and excellent pacing in the dialogue. Right now, it's my 2nd favorite cartoon on TV. (Hey, whay can I say-- I like Alex. I even relate to Alex a little. But I relate to Jodie and Daria more. ;-) And I've said it before, I'll say it again-- I *know* Goat. Scary.
rich.
Jane: Usually when I have this dream I'm wearing pink taffeta.
On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 02:47:45 GMT, [email] (paperpusher) wrote:
I've seen some pictures on the cartoon erotica newsgroup...
uh... I'll just quiet down now.
I've tried watching a few times, but I just can't get into it. Is anyone here a fan?
Give me Liquid Television... I loved that show. Especially Crazy Daisy Ed.
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 03:28:28 GMT, [email] (Lone Wolf) wrote:
The day I see an erotic Daria picture (and yeah, I'm sure they're out there) is the day I go Columbine on someone. The last thing I need is for my image of this wonderful show to be trashed in such a sleazy manner.
Martin (send all e-mail to "[email]") +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 00:56:35 -0400, [email] (Martin J. Pollard) wrote:
There were links to a nude Daria and Quinn on the board over a year ago.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
On 6 Sep 1999 05:06:18 GMT, [email] (Howling Lunatic) wrote:
And as far as I'm concerned, they can stay in the past where they belong. Those are makeovers that I do *NOT* want to see!
Martin (send all e-mail to "[email]") +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/In article , [email] wrote:
8< snipped for decency's sake 8<
You are officially PLONKed, jerk.
--.\\<-H--
Good you stupid bitch.
And your fanfics suck ass.
Stimpy
"Nah Nah I killfiled you, I'm superior"
On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:32:21 -0700, stimpsy wrote:
Uh... you DO know that when someone *plonk*s you, you've been added to their killfile and they no longer see your posts, right?
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 03:34:55 GMT, [email] (Lone Wolf) wrote:
enless someone else is kind enough to quote the message the "don't see"
"Doesn't ANYONE in this town wear pants?" ~Helen, Daria! The Musical
"I've seen more people collapse this week..." ~Daria, Jake of Hearts
"I've always dreamed of the day my picture would hang in a nuthouse." ~Daria, Once Opon a Nut
visit my no-thrills Daria fanfic site at: http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/wildbill/155/dmain.html
The artist formerly known as Crazy Nutso Since no one reads down this far anyway...
The Daria Code: v1.1 AP D+ T0 Ww Q+ Fw^FR O Ow m+ c++ MV- C5X F:112,F:201,F:306 BB FCJ DT q fJ^fD
Michelle Klein-Hass wrote:
Great idea, Michelle. Needed to test my newsgroup program's filters and I found a reason to do so with that asshole.
(crosses fingers that it'll work)
Diane
Hallucinating Elvis Lady wrote:
Same here.... my first use of the Official #Lawndale Gold-Plated Kick/Ban Hammer here in alt.tv.daria, and hopefully the last use as well. Thank goodness the normal intelligence level in here is high enough that I haven't needed it till now.
Marty Charter Member, Secret Underground Bummer Culture Silver Grove, KY Chapter
On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 13:18:57 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:
Good call. :-) The asshole was PLONKED (with the aid of Agent's kill filters) the moment he started his little campaign of spewage. He has all the right in the world to expose us to his mental diarrhea, just as I have all the right in the world to ignore his stupidity. :-)
Martin (send all e-mail to "[email]") +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 00:56:35 -0400, [email] (Martin J. Pollard) wrote:
You have just provocated me to show you that 'erotic' does not mean 'sleazy'. I don't know if my skills are up to the task but I have decided to try to draw a Daria picture that mimics Giorgione's "Sleeping Venus" (a very famous Renaissance picture). I hope you don't classify important pieces of art like that as "sleazy". MSB
p.s.: If I get this picture done (don't count on it), I think I will feel obliged to do one of a male Lawndale resident, too. After all, I am a strong believer in equality. Any special wishes whom I should draw and in what fashion. I was thinking about imitating Michelangelo's David since this is really widely known (I guess many will have seen that Simpsons episode about freedom of artistic expression)
Martin J. Pollard wrote:
I wanna see a tits and ass pic of Daria!!!
ahem.. it's late.
Affinity said:
A picture of Daria formed entirely out of breasts and buttocks? That's just ... weird :)
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
Must you be so facetious!
Given me an interesting art idea though...
Affinity said:
Yes. Next question?
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote:
So that's why they pronounce it ASS-KEY...
or Dr Quest and Race Bannon. (they were the cartoon world's first gay couple, you know)
"Bob Ohler" wrote:
You know, I always wondered why Race hung around with Dr. Quest. In that light, it makes perfect sense. "Why Jonny Has Two Daddies," indeed. ;-)
rich. (who's beginning to rethink the whole "single dad" thing from 60s TV...)
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:25:46 -0400, "Bob Ohler" wrote:
Friend of mine used to have a screen name called "Johnny Quest's Two Gay Dads"
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
Hey, there's at least two toy-hoarders here! Toy hoarding kicks ass :) Except Star Wars toys and the like, which should obviously be burnt.
Greg Pallis wrote:
Am I included in that figure? My toy collection now takes up one large six shelf bookcase, a smallish table, half of another six shelf bookcase (the front half--I've got toys sitting in front of all my books), my big ol' yo-yo display case, and of course the top of my computer monitor. My birthday's coming up soon, too, so I should be expanding my collection in the near future. Huzzah!
And Greg, you'll be happy to know that the only Star Wars toy among them is a Yoda pez dispenser. Heheh.
--J.
You should have a Boba Fett Pez dispenser. That's my token Star Wars toy. I figured it would be impressive :)
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
On 07 Sep 1999 23:19:23 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
How about a Monica Lewinsky Pez dispenser, delivered with custom shape pez. MSB (who recognizes marketing potential when he sees it)
Matthias Benkmann wrote:
Ewww!
Dagny Scott wrote:
D'oh! I forgot, I have one of those, too!
--J.
as long as you're not doing anything ridiculous with them, like PLAYING with them!!
Bob Ohler said:
Toys were meant to be played with ... :)
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Violator's Toad done up and writ:
"Besides, if you think Daria and Jane are bi just because they're close friends, what about Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble? Betty and Wilma? Charlie Brown and Linus? Scooby and Shaggy (bi-species as well!!!)? Doug and Skeeter? Bevis and Butthead?"
Well, pertaining to the last pair, Butthead was definitely straight, but Beavis had me wondering sometimes...
Think about it...
Guy
[email] wrote:
Beavis was just generally confused. I really felt sorry for the poor little guy sometimes.
--J.
Damn! I must be horridly out of touch with sexuality in the 90's, since I'm not bisexual. Of course I'm horridly out of touch with most things in the 90's, and very happy about that fact, too.
Come to think of it, Daria acts pretty out of touch with "the '90s", caring neither for the "new" teaching methods and "self esteem" O'Neill preaches (very '90s) or with its pop culture for that matter (what tape did she give Ted? The Beatles?)
Having Daria and Jane as bisexual would be a major incongruity in character, both having declared they are not and shown interest in the opposite sex, and I don't think we're big on major incongruities.
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
In article ,
since I'm not
90's, and
caring
preaches (very
Ted? The
In any case, the producers of "Daria" haven't shown any interest in tackling the hot topics of the '90s, instead keeping to your basic universal topics; family relations, individuality, friendship, etc. -- Tice Rust ...the y1.978k problem
Tice Rust said:
And have thus created a show that is about eternal issues, rather than merely whatever happens to be "in" right NOW.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
ISTM they've concentrated more on what ought to be a hot topic but never has been (and probably never will be), namely why society in general thinks it's cool to ostracise people for being intelligent and independently minded.
It is so sickening that when shows and movies actually do deal with people who are different, the "happy ending" almost invariably has them abandon their interesting and original identities in favour of become good little conformists. Daria stands out as being a show which not only treats Darian types with the integrity they deserve, but also tells the truth about how life is for such people -- the final scene in The Lab Brat being a good example, where the ever-so-grateful Kevin tells Daria he's having a party and that he'd like to invite ....... Quinn.
Were Daria to become a lesbian, the central theme of the show would be lost, because if you attach the label of a high-profile minority group to her she will cease to be a lone voice against the social order. In joining a recognised subculture she would become part of the very social milieu that she has experienced mutual repulsion with.
-Shez.
In article , Shez wrote:
Actually Littleton, CO has made this a VERY HOT TOPIC.
It pisses me off too.
--.\\<-H--
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:12:29 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:
Great bit on The Simpsons tonight...
"So, you ever go on a rampage with an automatic weapon?" "No... postal clerks going on shooting sprees went out with the macarena." "Glad I work in an elementary school."
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
Michelle Klein-Hass wrote:
Actually, rather interestingly enough one horrid review of the movie "She's All That" stated that "the lead female character, who is not unlike the heroine on the TV show 'Daria', starts out the movie by being concerned about intelligence and individuality. Unfortunately this is deemed a 'sin' by the movie's writers, who create a male character that 'cures' her of her ailment." (yay me, I actually memorized this part)
One of those "things that make you go hmmm".
Diane (apologizing for being absent on this ng)
In article , [email] wrote:
"She's All That" stated that "the lead female
out the movie by being concerned about
the movie's writers, who create a male
memorized this part)
Ironically, the movie "She's All That" was heavily advertised during the Daria Daily Dose showings. Lame, lame, lame.
--.\\<-H--
Hallucinating Elvis Lady of Diane Aguilar
That sounds like a *good* review to me. Or did you mean they were saying horrid things about the movie? That was in fact one of the movies that I had in mind when I wrote my post, though I couldn't recall its name. There are plenty of others though, eg. Welcome Home Roxy Carmichael and (possibly - at the very end anyway) Betelgeuse, both starring Winona Ryder. In WHRC, she starts out as a tousle haired rebel who has six locks on the door of her (black painted) bedroom to keep the world at bay, and ends up "cured" with ribbons in her hair etc. (Ironically she actually looks less attractive once she's brushed her hair and put a dress on.)
The only films I can think of where the rebels don't fall in with society, they end up committing suicide. "Heathers" for instance, starring Winona Ryder again - she survives but her misanthropic co-star blows himself up shortly after failing to kill her along with the highschool cheerleading team (nice try!). And "Surviving", an epic film starring Molly Ringwald as a girl who had tried to commit suicide, is befriended by a boy, their parents disapprove, the old Romeo & Juliet thing and they kill themselves. Both good films but it would be nice to see the outcasts win for a change. Actually I suppose in Heathers the ending is quite a good one (except that the cheerleaders survive), as whatsisname (who was also in The Name of the Rose) was just too evil to live anyway, he could easily have been a role model for the Littleton duo in fact. Ryder was a bit twee though. Come to think of it, Name of the Rose is one where the weirdo (Sean Connery) comes out on top whilst the rest of the world goes to hell. Great film, but not as nihilistic as the book.
-Shez.
On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 02:26:53 +0100, Shez wrote:
<snipped>
Breakfast Club. Breakfast Club! BREAKFAST CLUB!
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
Shez wrote:
Whoa, stupid me time. I meant that the reviewers thought the movie was horrid and were stating as such.
(bangs head against wall or large solid mass)
Ouch...that hurt. Not as much as those little paintball thingies though.
Diane the "way too tired to make any sense"
Shez said:
I've never seen the first. In the second, though, I would take issue with the characerization of Lydia as becoming a conformist at the end. She finds friends, yes, but of a decidedly unconventional variety. That is even more true if you take the cartoon series as also canon.
True. Winona's beauty works better as darkly romantic than as conventionally "cute".
Which essentially reinforces the message: "Conform or die".
Exactly. While remaining true to themselves.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Michelle Klein-Hass <[email] writes:
I got the impression though that it was just seen as an excuse to persecute misfits even more, like banning trenchcoats and goths for instance. Rather than enquiring into whether maybe people were being victimised too much in the first place.
-Shez.
On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 04:06:09 +0100, Shez wrote:
True, to a point. But you have to admit that it takes a certain kind of person to do something like that. I have, in the past, told school mates of mine that I may not be the most amiable person, but they ARE lucky I'm not crazy.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
of course, nothing I've heard about the attackers at Littleton has led me to believe they were especially inteligent.
Shez wrote:
I agree with you, the media tends always to relish expounding on the surface quality of a 'good' news item. It is much easier to think that computer games and the like are informing our kids actions, than it is to really peel back the layers and look at the bullshit that our society is based on i.e. conformity, hypocrisy and hatred.
Affinity said:
Absolutely. They focus on the proximate cause, or sometimes simply the STYLISTIC cause "video games", and ignore the deeper question of why murder seemed like a reasonable option to the kids in the first place.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:12:29 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:
As far as I can tell, the media is busily trying to brush it under the carpet.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
On 6 Sep 1999 03:15:25 GMT, [email] (Howling Lunatic) wrote:
Hurm... I thought they were trying to blame everything on Marilyn Manson, KMFDM, and Dungeons and Dragons.
Say.,.. THAT'S what they need at Lawndale... a D & D club.
Just hope to hell they don't blow it too out of proportion... most of us rarely play the game in full midieval attire... and we're not all honor students and chess club geeks, either. ;)
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
Lone Wolf said:
I think there is one and Upchuck's in it ... or at least such was hinted at one episode, I think "This Was Then". I wonder who else might be into that kind of thing ... oddly enough, I could easily see Andrea liking role-playing games.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
On 06 Sep 1999 03:56:58 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
How about... the Fashion Club is somehow forced to participate in a D & D club... they're revulsed at first, of course, but maybe one or more of them get REALLY into it... and end up screaming for blood and falling into Upchuck's clutches.
Or not.
----- Lone Wolf I'm rooting for the crocodile.
"You are American?" "No, I'm Canadian... that's like an American without the gun." - KitH
In article ,
Like "Vampire: The Masquerade"?
Sounds like "Vampire: The Masquerade" again... Cold, ruthless, heartless monsters engaged in eternal games of social one-up-manship, subtly vying for dominance over their peers, and while they wouldn't show it, they'd be secretly delighted when one of their rivals takes a (well engineered) fall. Which actually doesn't leave the Fashion Club with much time to play D&D, or V:tM...
If there's one thing playing D&D taught me... it's how to write ampersands.
True. While a good result would be to look into why society (and especially High School, a cruel little microcosm of society) ostracizes anyone who is intelligent or in any way different. It's an important issue.
INSTEAD there became a paranoid backlash AGAINST anyone intelligent or in any way different, assuming they're all about to become murderers, and pushing their progress a GREAT GIANT LEAP BACKWARD
Of course their was some backlash against the anti-outcast idea in the media, showing (once again) the media's tendency to attack itself, as it did over Ken Starr. So they abandoned this idea and, basically, swept it under the carpet, and instead decided the only lesson of Littleton was a need for stricter gun control. Which is another problem and issue entirely.
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
On 06 Sep 1999 14:35:13 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
I think high school values things other than intelligence, so the natural arrogance inherent in being good at anything is found to be ecspecially grating, because as far as they can tell, there's no reason for it.
Kyle
He complained when I hit him. All my friends do. Wusses.
i hate dolphins. they aren't remotely cute. and i bet the only reason they aren't covered in shit like pigs are, is because they live in the sea and the water washes it off.
Shez said:
Absolutely correct. Both about the focus of the show and the phenomenon it describes. It _should_ be a hot topic because it originates from our primate past (expel the different from the band) and restricts our cultural growth very badly (when the "different" is in fact "superior", such expulsion harms society as a whole).
Historically, the reason why first Holland, then Britain, then America succeeded was because they had developed a greater degree of tolerance for the (competent) different. The scary thing, when you look at the level of intolerance towards non-conformists in modern America, is that we are actually the most tolerant society Mankind has yet produced!
It won't be "hot" because at the root of the intolerance of intelligence is envy; this envy is very common, and people don't like to be reminded that they are feeling such an emotion. They would rather be told that they are feeling their revlusion against intelligent non-conformity for some more honest or rational reason ... the smart are practical bumblers (the Absent-Minded Professor), cowards (the classic "nerd" stereotype), socially helpless (Urkel), evil (the Mad Scientist), or just plain dangerous psychoes (the Serial Killer).
Yes. "Wow, now that I've given up everything that made me ME, I am SO much happier!" I hate those types of endings.
And quite honestly, too. Actually, Daria's better off than a lot of such people, because she is very strong-willed and hence doesn't let people push her around. She was taught this virtue by Helen. Misfits who aren't as strong-willed often have hellish adolescences.
Exactly. The very reason why Daria is something of a "generic" intellectual non-conformist is that she is symbolic of us all. Plus, for her to become a lesbian out of the blue, with no foreshadowing, would be truly inept character development, and totally destroy the character's believability.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
In all actuality the reason why Holland, Britain and America succeeded was based on the negation of difference. Pan back to the Enlightenment, the three rationales behind this movement were Progress, Reason and the expansion of global trade, basically a precursor to Capitalism. When these countries decided to expand their empires outward, they realized that they would be encountering and negotiating with other cultures, this process is now referred to as colonialism. In order to rationalize a colonialist invasion the people of other cultures were compared to the colonialists using the yard stick of Progress and Rationalism. This in turn set up the ''primitive' vs 'civilized' dichotomy, which while creating a seemingly valid reason for cultural and real genocide, also validated the current thinking of the time (Enlightenment theories) at the top of the hierarchy. So in fact, these three countries while purporting tolerance, were most manifest in creating the hierarchy of the 'other'.
Envy may well play a part in the intolerance of intelligence, but at the same time, I would argue that this intolerance is based on what ever social value are popular at the time. Currently, our society gives more credence to the accumulation of wealth than to the richness of independent thought. To be able to stand out side (theoretically) and independently critique the social structure is something that a lot of people become uncomfortable with, because it basically threatens their assumed value systems.
Even if you are strong willed, this doesn't douse the flames, if anything it makes the struggle to be an independent thinker more of a challenge.
Affinity said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "the negation of difference", but all three countries were more tolerant of internal non-conformity than most human cultures have been historically. If you search for some hypothetically more "tolerant" cultures than the ones I've named, you search in vain.
colonialism.
Actually the original "colonialists" were the Spanish and Portuguese, and their hostility towards non-European civilizations came from fanatical Christianity honed against the Moslems in the Reconquista and in later Mediterranean naval wars. They were equally cruel, btw, to their fellow-Europeans who competed with them to explore the New World.
This happened later, in the 18th century. In the 15th - 17th centuries, the mere fact that Europeans were Christian and non-Europeans generally weren't was seen as reason enough to despise the non-Europeans.
seemingly
The Enlightenment philosohy, however, included egalitarianism. The reason why elaborate arguments about "civilized vs. primitive" and ultimately "superior vs. inferior" races replaced the old, simple "They are not like us so we can hurt them and it's ok" arguments is that people were becoming more morally sohisticated.
creating the hierarchy of the 'other'.
It was precisely BECAUSE of their growing internal tolerance that they needed elaborate reasons to justify external intolerance.
On the school level, envy is the main motivator.
Independent thinkers often become wealthy, though. And wealth, btw, is produced, not just "accumulated".
True in all societies. Ours, horribly enough, is the MOST tolerant of that sort of thing, of all those which have ever existed.
If you aren't strong-willed, you are more likely to be abused. Bullies look for EASY targets, not those likely to resist.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:30:00 +0100, Shez wrote:
Amen! Intelligent people should be the one's DOING the ostracizing! WWDD?
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
Dagny the Wonder Seal said:
Give yourself three demerits. In the meantime, I'll try to convince Stephen to start wearing dresses :)
I liked the 90's ... the 1890's, that is ...
Ted?
Daria's a timeless sort of woman, in many ways. She's true to her own nature, which is simply that of an intelligent, honest, decent human being ... and that sort of personalty can exist in any decade, or century.
It's called "bad writing".
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
In the past this was true basically only if she was wealthy enough to remain single and independent from a "lord & master"(ala Virginia Woolf) or didn't die in childbirth...
Exactly!
Marie
"A woman must have money and a room of her own if she is to write fiction." -Virginia Woolf
i'm bisexual. i have actually been accused of excessive trendiness because of this. lol. IT'S NOT MY FAULT DAMNIT! ;)
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 18:06:17 +0100, "endless, nameless" wrote:
*grins an evil Christian grin*
No. I'll stay out of this one.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
you do that!! ;P
(coincediently i'm halfd-way thruogh reading "oranges are not the only fruit")
On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 00:35:45 +0100, "endless, nameless" wrote:
Ok, I will!
I dunno what that is, care to explain?
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
apologies for the appalling typing here...
a book, about a christian girl, with a VERY christian mother, who (the girl, not the mother) at some point i haven't reached yet starts falling in love with other girls.
;)
Howling Lunatic of writes:
It's a story about a girl whose family only ever eat oranges, and one day she discovers that there are other types of fruit too, and what's more she's one of them. I saw the film, it was pretty good.
-Shez.
Alli said:
Heh ... I don't think you're "excessively trendy". I think you're just you, and I like you.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
well thank you. lol.
she who is drunk again,
Ughhhh people bisexuality is so 89, therefor its inclusion would not serve any trendyfying purpose!
<Affinity> wrote:
In my experience, personal and otherwise, "bisexuals" tend to be people too cowardly to tell others (or to admit to themselves) that they're gay.
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
make GEORYN disappear to reply
"Siento que debemos saber para el sue�o de qui�n brillar� esta luz o consagrar una propia estrella" --Alberto Felici
N.P.:nothing
Mike said:
Well, in my experience, "bisexuals" are exactly what you would think from the defiinition of the term, people who are attracted to members of both sexes.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
speaking strictly for myself here, i would disagree. i would actually take less shit for being lesbian from my family. my mother doesn't believe in bisexuality, for a start.
Apparently a lot of gays/lesbians don't like bisexuals either, accusing them of being frivolous people who don't take their sexuality seriously enough.
-Shez.
Shez said:
Why is being attracted to BOTH genders somehow less "serious" than being attracted to only one? Now, if they are involved with both at the same time, they have to be cheating on someone, or openly polyamorous, but that's a whole other issue.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Dagny Scott wrote:
I've been out of touch with "the present" since birth, practically. In the '80s I was a little girl into the '60s, and now in the '90s I've mainly been a person into the '80s. It hasn't bothered me a whole lot, but I do wish I could find genuine '80s fashions and learn how to dress as such because it'd make things a whole lot easier. Hm...paging Salvation Army...?
Diane
Dagny said:
I hate to break it to you, Dagny, but you're out of touch for the 60's, 70's, and 80's too... All three of those decades were more sexually permissive then the 90's... Maybe you're a visionary and ahead of your time? :)
Marie
"Of all sexual aberrations, perhaps the most peculiar is chastity." -Remy de Gourmont
Marie Ross said:
I think what's different now is that the authority figures are actually more permissive than a lot of the younger people. Candy, anyone?
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
I'm out of touch with the world... which either says "sex is evil. Only ever have it within marriage to have children." or tries to "push the boundries" in terms of promiscuity and sexual practices....
I'm somewhere in between there. I'm naturally monogamous although I don't follow the Christian "sex only within marriage" its more like "sex if you're in love". And that's a hard thing to tell, but it's the hard things to tell that have real value. And it's dangerous and relationships can cause you pain but so can life...
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
[email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
Yep. It's all about choosing between shades of gray.
Re: Pain, it reminds me of some a Zen concept that I've been trying to embrace (although like most Zen concepts, it's not easy to accept at all times), and that is to embrace the pain and welcome it just as you embrace and welcome the pleasure and joy. It doesn't make it any less painful, but it does keep you from retreating from life like a wounded animal.
rich.
"Absolute certainty is stasis, boring. We need uncertainty -- it's the only way to go." -- Dr. Leon Lederman, physicist.
Affinity said:
There's been no evidence on the show to support your theory. Yes, Daria and Jane are close friends, but there is absolutely no sign of even the slightest sexual attraction between them.
There is, in fact, plenty of evidence that they are primarily heterosexual. Daria has spent the whole series mooning over Trent, with Jane's approval. Jane has on four occasions in the series shown attraction for a male (most recently, acquiring a serious boyfriend).
Daria and Jane have had fantasies regarding their future. Daria's fantasy appears to involve marriage (to a man), Jane's artistic success. Neither of them have shown any lesbian desires in these fantasies.
Finally, Jane has STATED she "likes guys too much" to be homosexual. (She once claimed to be gay, but that was not only clearly a joke, but was pointed out as such by Daria and Jane in their very next lines).
You could try to construct a theory that they are bisexual based on this, but you would truly be building castles in the air. You can't even say that the show says nothing at all about Daria or Jane sexually, as several episodes have been based around the romantic adventures of one or another of these two girls.
I think that Daria and Jane are both intellectually and emotionally independent enough that any exploration of their "sexuality" would be done based upon THEIR desires versus some sort of decade-based or boundary-pushing motivatons. In fact, anyone who orients their romantic, sexual, and emotional life around a desire to be "cool" is playing a fool's game ... one has to live one's own life and with one's own choices; the others whom one might try to impress neither share one's joy nor one's sufferings, and hence should have little say in one's decisions.
I could really rip that sentence apart further, but I like your text graphic signature thingie, so I'll let ya off easy :)
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
<snipped for brevity>
Blame that on MTV skirting around an issue that they don't have the courage to tackle.
<good points snipped>
I don't think including bisexuality, which *is* a current reality, would be any sort of push to be 'cool'. I agree with your notion of making ones own choices that are true to the person, in fact that's the biggest message of the whole show. But hell, these people are characters... their life choices are being made by MTV executives.
Rip away, that's what it's there for... thanks I like it too.
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 15:05:56 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
I've already said it once, but as I go down the thread, here it is again.
This is not about Daria. This is about politics and personal opinions of morality.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
Affinity said:
I have nothing against bisexuality or bisexuals. However, Daria and Jane are well established characters, and what has been established about them, while it does not make it IMPOSSIBLE for them to be bisexual, makes it improbable.
* (possible spoilers for "Jane's Addition") * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * And to some extent irrelevant. The third season ended with Jane involved with a guy (Tom), and though Daria's crush on Trent had been resolved, it had been resolved by maturing into a firmer friendship which MIGHT in time lead to romantic love.
Even if Jane were bisexual, for her to become involved with a woman now would mean cheating on Tom. We don't know what Jane's opinion of this is (she may have been involved with and cheated on Jesse), but she IS loyal to her FRIENDS.
Daria, on the other hand, even if bisexual would still be romantic, prudish, and attracted to Trent. (Being "bisexual" doesn't automatically make you promiscious as well; still less does being "lesbian", since lesbians generally go for long-term relationships).
show.
Yes, but that would be bad writing, because it's inconsistent with the characters as previously established, with no explanation given for the change in personality.
.>> I could really rip that sentence apart further, but I like your text graphic
Ok ... ya asked for it ...
Because it WORKS, while driving off the road often leads into smacking into a tree?
And incidentally, from everything we've seen in Daria's fantasies, romantically and sexually she is an extreme traditionalist. She fantasizes about love and sex within the context of or leading up to permanent marriage. Since Daria is NOT a blind conformist, we must conclude that she really likes the idea of spending the rest of her life with a man she loves.
You must remember this / a kiss is still a kiss / a sigh is still a sign / The fundamental things of life don't change / As time goes by ...
Of course it does. People today still fall in love with members of the opposite sex, get married, and have children. Do you imagine that on Jan 1st, 1990, human nature was repealed?
Doing something JUST to "push the boundaries", if it otherwise makes no sense, is generally a BAD idea. I could "push the boundaries" of locomotion by attempting to reach the street from my attic by leaping out a window rather than using the stairs, but I fear the consequences.
Daria would too.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Agreed.
(Snip)
Indeed. Its too much of what you'd find in a soap opera. Mike learns that his wife Susan is pregnant with the child of her long-lost-formerly-joined-at-the-head-siamese-twin-sister-who-had-a-sex-change -to-escape-the-mob-and-then-got-amnesia-so-she/he-doesn't-remember-who-she/he- is. Next on "As Your Stomach Turns."
As they say, the road less taken is like that for a reason. Just because homosexuality (or any other form of non-heterosexuality) isn't viewed as a disease or a severe problem as much as it used to be doesn't mean that everyone is homosexual. Maybe someone should organize a "straight pride" parade....
(Over the past decade I've been accused of being or mistaken for both a homosexual and a homophobe. Turns out they're all wrong. I'm not intolerant of homosexuals, but I don't like them enough to date them.:)
And there's nothing wrong with that idea, even if some people would call it too idealistic. Even the ideal happens at times. I'm sure that there's thousands upon thousands of people like Daria who have similar dreams.
It's just being "edgy" and "90's" for the sake of being "edgy" and "90's". And then when it screws up you can blame the network execs for not being "forward thinking" even though the ratings have you ranked somewhere below the Chuck Norris infomercials.
Yeah. Push the envelope too far and you end up in the corner that gets stamped.:)
Len
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 18:32:34 GMT, I_Am_The_Archon@Doom!.com (Len Pitre) wrote:
This one's going into the old archives!
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
When many people today talk about "pushing the envelope", unfortunately all you find in there is junk mail... (lazy paraphrase from Robert Weide on alt.books.kurt-vonnegut)
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
Len Pitre said:
Yes. Soap operas do it cause they have 5 eps a week and "something" has to happen in every episode. _Daria_ is under no similar pressure.
For Daria to have sex with a woman when she has no desire for love or sex with any particular woman, just to say "look at what I did", would be truly "perverse" in a way that has NOTHING to do with being gay. It would be being deliberately self-destructive, and Daria isn't.
And often they come true. Wanting a loving relationship that leads to marriage, with sex happening only when she's sure of being loved, isn't unrealistic by any means.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Jordan B said:
Bisexuality has been a _reality_ for a very long time... So has much more bizarre sexual practices... I remember my history prof. telling us how (in one of the ancient cultures...I forget which one) there was a law, on the books, forbidding women to have sex with goats... seems like it was a real problem at that time...
Marie Ross said:
Probably older than humanity ... many primates engage in mock mating behavior with members of their own sex, either as a form of dominance behavior or play.
Hee hee hee ... I can't see them thinking of this themselves, but I could see someone conning them into it.
I could see that fairly easily ... not as she is now, but as she may be in a few years.
EXACTLY. One would almost imagine that you're a writer or something ... a good one ... ;-)
Hey ... we weren't all that sleazy in the 80's ... :P
I agree.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
And bulls. Ever hear of the minotaur in Greek mythology?
That would be the only other extreme we can go to, we've run this permissiveness one nearly as far as you can. I don't think I'm extreme enough to have a fashionable sexuality :)
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
Dagny Scott said:
Yes ... the offspring of the Queen of Crete and a bull. Probably originally a political joke, because "Minos" was the title of the archaic King of Crete, the Cretan culture included a bull-dancing ceremony, and the "Labyrinth" was almost certainly the complex palace at Knossos (and the bureaucracy it supported).
One of many things whose meaning got lost during the Hellenic Dark Age of around 1100 - 700 BCE ... one of the few whose meaning we've recovered.
But you've been to Newark ... :)
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
True. I was just pointing out that the ancients could be just as perverted as us. That, and I was always slightly disturbed by my Mythology teacher... it was 8 in the morning, she was really perky (disturbing enough), and she was really perky talking about women having sex with bulls!
Disturbing. She had sort of a Gupty-ish way of talking. Very interesting not only with the mniotaur, but with other fun things like sex slaves in the Trojan War...
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
Dagny said:
us.
Oh, easily so. Remember all those myths where Zeus turns himself into an animal to rape or seduce a paramour? Now let me inform you that the Romans really liked those myths, and often staged them live in the arena ... in the case of the nastier ones, with female prisoners and wild animals.
She wasn't the same person as that English teacher who thought that all great literature was about sex with hunky guys, was she?
Ah, the Trojan Women ... whee ... what was her take on Agammemnon, Cassandra, and Clytemnestra?
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
No. The mythology teacher was Mrs. Magennis; that was Mrs. Poltrock. She just figured it was all material for her to have sexual fantasies involving Robert Redford and Richard Gere...
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phony and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall
On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 13:29:59 +1030, "<Affinity>" wrote:
Because:
1) Daria and Jane have already mentioned they are not bisexual nor lesbians, as noted from Daria Day '98. The transcript is on Outpost Daria.
2) Sexuality in the 90's includes all sexual orientations - bisexual, heterosexual, and homosexual. All of them are relevant in the discussion of sexuality.
Nicole Lee, the Lady Kender, said:
Yes. Jane repeats this statement in "Jane's Addition". And there have been several instances of Daria and Jane displaying attraction towards men, none of their displaying attraction towards women.
If we observed some sort of unknown animal that progressed by walking, and we saw it walk all the time, and never fly, we would logically conclude that it is a terrestrial animal, not a flyer. Now, we could be wrong ... it could metamorphose or something ... but until it showed some sign of doing so, we would be foolish to decide that it is a flying animal.
And, indeed, it always has done so. The 1990's are different from earlier decades solely in that admitting to non hetrosexual orientations is more accepted. And of course, there have been other cultures in which it was ALWAYS more accepted than in the 20th century West.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
"" wrote:
errrrm.... i never noticed any unspoken attraction there..
why is bisexuality any more relevant than heterosexuality?
Alli said:
Right. Strong friendship, but no visible romantic or sexual attraction on either side.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
Note: Although this post starts with a discussion on a different show completely, I do realise this is a Daria newsgroup, and I'm actually trying to add to the discussion, not sidetrack it. Trust me...
One of the best shows ever written (in my opinion) is Babylon 5. I've
been following it since day one, and I've just finished watching the very
last episode, some five years later. What set it apart from other shows
wasn't the special effects (although they were pretty damned good), but
the planning that went into both the plots and the characters. Other
shows seem to suffer from "What can happen this week?", which makes the
plot totally unbelievable and has the characters doing things that are
totally against their "character". Star Trek suffered badly from this,
because they accepted unsolicited scripts, which meant that the continuity
was lost. One week something would happen which affects the core of
everyone's emotional being, and the next week they'd be acting as if
nothing had happened. (There was also the small detail of a brand new,
never-seen-before character being introduced early in the episode that you
just knew was going to be killedby the end.)
The guy who created B5 had total control over the show. He had
"bibles" of each character, and anyone chosen to write an episode had to
stick to that. The whole five-year arc was planned, so something that
happened in an early episode would have repercussions three or four
seasons down the track. And the events and subsequent emotional changes
each character underwent kept on affecting them throughout the series.
So where is all this going? Well, I think the creators of Daria
have done a pretty good job in maintaining the same kind of continuity.
Events in earlier episodes effect later episodes, and the characters seem
pretty "true". As people have already said, there hasn't been so much as
a hint of Jane and Daria having these feelings, and to spring it on them
would seriously detract from the show's credibility. If they want to have
something like this happen, then they'll have to spend a season or so just
getting the characters to that point. But I really don't think it's
necessary. Pushing the characters into it will just seem like an attempt
at sensationalism for the sake of ratings.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.Bill.
"We are now entering hell. Please keep your hands and elbows inside the car." -- Daria
Bill Harper said:
Yes. And which do not count as character "development", because whatever soul-wrenching experience the character has, he or she will be "rebooted without saving" at the start of the next epsiode.
When you watch a lot of a series like this, the effect is bizarre. For example, a rather sweet little show like The Mary Tyler Moore Show is clearly perceivable as the torturous emotional destruction of the title character due to her inability to stand up for herself or settle for any man other than her old boyfriend, if you take the show as a unit. (The fault is that MTM was conceived of as an " overly nice person", so she gets pushed around a lot, and a "bachelor girl", so naturally she can't have a long-term boyfriend).
The bar in _Cheers_, on the other hand, is obviously a slower and subtler version of the Overlook Hotel (_The Shining_). Why do I make that claim? Because if you watch the whole series, it's obvious that the place collects despair and misery; anyone who hangs out there is doomed to be a Total Failure; all their plans for success will be sadistically (and humorously) stymied. Only those who break completely away from it can win. Though the bar has obviously sent an agent (Woody) out into the larger world of Boston, who has good luck equalling everyone else's bad. Who knows to what sinister purpse?
Remember, Sam. You've ALWAYS been the bartender. And the Owners have confidence in you. *evil chuckle*
In my opinion the insane crises the ship characters are thrown into every episode would leave them emotional basket cases by the end of the first season. If this was real life, that is.
Or taken out of the series by a Fortuitous Event, such as being reassigned to another ship.
Indeed.
The continuity and characterization are both excellent. On the various Daria-thons, one self-referential running gag is for Daria and Jane to refer to themselves as "cartoons", but in truth they are less two-dimensional than the characters on most live action shows.
Tremendously so.
Daria would have to be given some VERY STRONG motive; Jane to lose her current love interest and have at least SOME motive (she's probably more willing to experiment for the sake of experiment). Even then it would feel very contrived.
Yep.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote:
The only way Daria & Jane are two-dimensional is that they ARE cartoons. Like you said, though, most live-action shows are more two-dimensional than Daria ever thought about being. Which is a very GOOD thing; otherwise, they wouldn't have the appeal they do.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled newsgroup banter, already in progress.
Marty Charter Member, Secret Underground Bummer Culture Silver Grove, KY Chapter
On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:33:41 +1000, Bill Harper wrote:
<snipped Babylon 5's praises>
You know, honestly, after about 2 years of Babylon 5 (the first 2), I couldn't stand it any more, the soap opera writing was so bad, in my opinion.
Kyle, The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs
"Kissing is touching your lips to the better end of 66 feet of intestine"
Bill Harper wrote in message news:[email]... .)
had
to
changes
B5 is a good example of a tightly-controlled show. Very tightly controlled. Back when I was on GEnie and used to hang out in the Science Fiction/Fantasy BB, people from B5 would post, telling about the show but asking people to PLEASE not post story ideas. It seems that on at least one occasion someone posted a story idea that coincided with what had already been planned. They had to rewrite the episode so as to avoid any possible hint of copyright infringement with the BB poster. You'll notice that doesn't seem to be a problem with Daria.
And B5 had a strict five-year plan. When that expired--well we know what happened. We're all hoping for a longer run for Daria. Although the B5 spinoff isn't bad.
Interesting thing about B5: it indirectly led me to Daria. I don't have cable, just didn't care to spend money on it. I'd been watching B5 on my local station and when they switched to TNT I had to either forget it or get cable--or buy a dish. I didn't get the DirecTV dish just to see B5 but it was a factor. And that's how I "discovered" Daria.
GEnie's SF/F BB community, back a few years ago, was really magical. (Back when it was GEnie and not Genie) Intelligent, witty people, several Mensans, not only talking about the subject that interests them but talking about themselves, like friends, or just joking around. What a delight! I even remember one or two marriage proposals. The closest thing I've yet found to it is a.t.d. A.T.D has turned out to be everything I could have hoped. I know!--Let's play a family card game!
Bill Harper wrote:
Actually, I've just been reading JMS' book on scriptwriting-- it's very good. While he doesn't say whether he ever accepted scripts by freelancers for B5, he did say that no producer with a brain would ever reject a well-written script that came from a freelancer. I do know that he didn't write every script, though. And rememeber, while the story arc and bibles were thorough, there was still a lot of room leftover for ancillary stories to be written that weren't arc-critical. (Besides, if every second of every episode is arc-critical, then you wind up writing yourself out of a job.)
On a tangentially-related note...
Of course, there is a VERY strict procedure that you MUST follow as a freelancer, or else you'll get your script sent back unopened. And there is a very good reason for this. (And it's also the reason why most series producers try to avoid fan fiction like the plague.) If an unsolicited script is sent in, and it happens to be the same as a script already in production, and the envelope just happens to be accidentally opened, then usually the script being shot will have to be scrapped, and that is VERY expensive. Why? Simple. If I send in an unsolicited script and get it back in a different envelope with a rejection letter, then I'd assume that they read it. (And I haven't signed the proper submission papers with the production co. yet, either. Remember, it's unsolicited.) If I see them shoot a similar idea in a few months, I might be tempted to think that my idea was "stolen" from me. (Usually, though, that isn't true. There are only so many ideas... what was it about the million monkeys with a million typewriters?) Fan fiction could be considered the same way-- an unsolicited script. (And, frankly, even if there weren't "issues" involved, most Producers hardly have the time to read scripts that are submitted the proper way, let alone to read every fanfic out there.)
I'm out. rich.
Daria: He said master *painters.*