My Take On #504 (Spoilers)

Spoiler Space For #504
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     Overall, a very good episode.The flashbacks to Daria's initial visit to
the camp were both funny and poignant.  Amelia was utilized very well, sort of
like an unpopular version of Stacy before her rousing speech. (not unlike Ms.
Rowe in #503)  Daria was more bluntly antisocial in this episode than usual,
but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  One of the more amusing aspects of
#504 were Quinn's "friends" at the camp - an almost carbon copy of The Fashion
Club right down to the Asian girl and another girl whose voice and manner were
eerily similar to Sandi!  I so love a good parody.  And I really laughed at
Billy, Bobby, and Benji - who were as similar to The Three J's as a Xerox
machine could produce.
     Now to the subplots.  Helen and Jake in the garage were ok, but really no
new ground was covered between them.  Jane and Trent tasting food with the old
folks did not work at all and was frankly boring.
     To sum up, this was a huge improvement on writer JonathanGreenberg's first
foray, "Groped By An Angel", which I found to be one of the worst episodes of
the series.  The overall grade is B+, as an excellent central story must be
weighed against two less than stellar subplots.

Al52228 wrote:

What happened after everyone threw their shirts at Skip? MTV started late, or something, and my tape ended at that point. I wanted to scream.

Michael Sears wrote:

(Spoiler space for #504)

Don't I know it. I had my VCR record from 7 minutes before the hour 'til 7 after the half-hour. There was almost half of the previous show (I saw the alter-egos, anyway) and only one and a half minutes left after.

Anyway: Daria and Amelia (?? Daria's camp tagalong) got back on good(ish) terms. Jane and Trent picked Daria up and Trent's muse came back - he thought up a song about his wasted time looking for the fundamental wisdom the would-be potato chip makers didn't have. Quinn - rather to her chagrin - got a ride home with Skip, who spent the time ranting about the camper's disrespect for camp.

Len

"Michael Sears" wrote in message news:[email]...

I was more cheesed off at the fact that they sprung a rerun of #503 before the new one, but it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the world (i was going by the paperpusher site, but the local listings didn't show "FLM" as being shown that night either). at least i caught all of the new one, if only by a hair. course, now i have to hope to god MTV doesn't decide to preempt the "FLM" reruns in order to show me the inside of POD's house or whatever stupid shit they come up with. i swear i've got gray hairs forming from four years of trying to get every episode of this damned show on tape...

"c." wrote:

According to the on-screen guide on my digital cable system: Monday, March 19 930 PM Camp Fear 1000 PM The Story of D

Well, we did see that it could be at times. Telling Amelia to bug off when all she was doing was trying to be friendly. I cringed when I saw that because I imagine Daria in situations like that all her life. And I remember her telling Linc in IIFY that her life would have been better if she had opened up at times. Apparently she forgot.

Although I thought it was cool that she did inspire Amelia to take some positive action. Daria's charisma does come to the surface, whether she likes it or not.

One of the more amusing aspects of

The "friends" were a lot less tolerant of Quinn's cheating than the actual FC was.

We didn't see too much of the new improved Quinn this episode, but that's ok.

How could Helen and Jake cover new ground with all that junk between them?

As for Jane and Trent, maybe someone heard the complaint about Jane not being in the show too much. I thought it was pointless, although we did see Trent in a crisis and he came out of it without Daria's help.

I wonder how much better he could have gotten with a sixth season. Ah well.

Jeff M.

Al52228 said:

I think Amelia may have been a reaction to over-fanatical Daria fandom, actually.

But she did point out a few important things about Daria's character. That she really _doesn't_ like "followers," even if they're her _own_ followers. That her friendlessness prior to meeting Jane was partially by her own choice, whether she realized it or not. And finally, that she's grown emotionally since her childhood -- note that she first openly rejected Amelia (something she probably didn't have the guts to do as a little kid) and then felt bad that she'd hurt her feelings (something she probably didn't have the _empathy_ to do as a little kid).

It was regression. Basically, the theme of this episode was "growth," and the younger Daria was not as nice as the current one.

manner

There was a "Staci", too. In general Quinn's camp friends were a milder version of the Fashion Club, probably because their personalities, too, have evolved in the interim.

Note the implication -- that Quinn back then was very similar to Quinn now, up to and including the scheming.

Note also that Quinn wasn't totally comfortable with her old self, either, once she realized that her memories had been wrong. Her personality has evolved too.

The scene affirmed that they love each other despite their flaws.

Trent decided _not_ to change, in the sense of giving up his music. The important point was that it was his conscious decision -- he affirmed that he _wants_ to be a musician, as opposed to being stuck in that role.

Did you notice, btw, that Daria clearly still hopes he doesn't give up his dream?

It was interesting that Jane acted somewhat jealous of Amelia - Jane really thought she had been Daria's only friend ever, which was very unlikely to be literally true.

Don't you think Daria has (or had) a tendency to exaggerate the extent of her "friendlessness"? In her little speech to Tom in DDMD (in response to Tom's "why is everyone mad at me?") she not only stated that Jane was her first friend ever, but also that she was a "total outcast" - hardly true. Think of "Ill", in which, despite her efforts to keep her hospital stay a secret, the quarterback, football captain, president of the Honor Society, and the head cheerleader - the royal family of LHS - all come to visit her. Some outcast.

In "Fizz Ed", she described herself to Tom as having a reputation as "a square peg and a malcontent", which is probably much closer to the truth.

M Man

MMan said:

Yep. If nothing else, if one defines "friend" broadly enough, B&B would have counted. She knew them, and frequently hung out with them, back in Highland.

Jane is almost certainly Daria's first _real_ friend, in the sense of someone she could trust, and share her thoughts openly with.

Yes. Definitely yes.

Most people who know Daria at all, like and respect Daria, or at worst fear her. About the only person who didn't treat her with some respect was Tommy Sherman -- who promptly died, an event which can't have made people fear her LESS, even though it wasn't her fault that he did so.

Heck, even Beavis & Butthead called her "Diarrhea", _but they didn't actually do anything to hurt or even interfere with her_, which given their personalities implies considerable respect on their parts.

Daria is in love with her image of herself as "principled outcast", which while _partially_ an accurate one, is only partially so, and it's more by her own choice than she always realizes.

I wonder if the real truth is something so disheartening to her that her fanstasy of being a "total outcast" seems mild by comparison. Remember in "Partner's Complaint" where Daria has managed to alienate both Jane and Jodie over the same school project? When Helen gets her to open up about what happened, Daria calls herself a " rigid, unrealistic, unforgiving self-righteous jerk who can't hold on to a friend" and "someone with a pattern of alienating people with her self-righteous pronouncements"

A pattern? Maybe going back to very early childhood? Not a girl who's never had a friend, but rather a girl who's destroyed more friendships, all in the same manner, than she can remember?

M Man

M Man wrote:

That's definitely a possibility. Or to be more accurate, she may well have destroyed a lot of casual friendships which had the possibility to be more than casual friendships, because of her overly idealistic ideas.

As for her choice of words to describe her actions in "Partner's Complaint", I think it's more self-hatred than anything else. After all, Helen said in that episode that her integrity is generally a good thing, but that she does have a tendency to carry idealism too far.

Belle Book

"Belle Book" wrote in message news:[email]...

never

the

have

than

What i think is even more likely is that Daria is of a personality type that doesn't tend to have many casual friends in the first place, and the people who DO form those types of casual bonds will start to move in, then be put off by her unwillingness to open up, which is still pretty painful even if you're not interested in having lots of "pals."

I know the type well. Hell, i AM the type. Historically, there's been about two people at a time in the whole world who know everything about me, and to everyone else i'm an enigma. But it still just reinforces your low self-opinion when people you don't even WANT to be friends with reject you.

In terms of Myers-Briggs personality sorter types, i'd say Daria falls firmly under the INFP type. introvert, intuitive, feeling, perceiving, who oddly enough often come off like super-rigid, judgemental bastards when their value systems are violated.

Christ, that's depressing.

Makes sense, though...in order to give her enough positive qualities to be the protagonist, Daria was designed as smart, pretty and witty. But she's supposed to be unpopular. And so, she generates her own unpopularity.

Belaboring the obvious, I know, but his is much in keeping with a private theory I like to kick around called, "Daria is incredibly screwed up." And I'm hoping that, but the end of the second movie, they won't cheap out and leave her screwed up. On the other hand, I hope they don't make a mawkish, feel-good mess of such a process, either.

Al

Dammit! Sorry, hope that my reply was branched under the spoiler headers and that nobody got hurt.

I'll do better next time, honest.

Al

And then I went and replied in the same manner.

Good news is I don't think anything crucial was revealed.

M Man

Well, it's depressing if it shows no sign of ending. But ...

Daria has kept Jane as a friend for many years now, most likely for life. If their friendship can survive "the Tom thing", it's hard to see what it couldn't survive.

Helen told Daria in "Partner's Complaint" that people aren't as easily alienated as Daria thinks, and she discovered that was certainly true in the case of Jane and Jodie.

In the most recent episode, "Camp Fear", she got back on good terms with Amelia after blowing her off.

I suspect that, in her younger days, Daria just walked away from such situations, figuring she'd blown her chance to have a friend.

And some of her "unpopularity" is in her own imagination, as I pointed out in my example from "Ill".

M Man

I wouldn't take it too far, Daria being "screwed up."

Her _ideals_ are not wrong. They are in fact good and admirable, they are part of why we like her.

What's wrong is that Daria finds it hard to forgive other people for not living up to her ideals -- and of course, when she herself violates them (as in DDMD) she tortures herself with self-loathing, because she forgives herself even less readily.

What Daria needs to do, to be a happier person, is to keep her ideals -- but learn to accept that ideals are _goals_, and can't always be attained 100% of the time. When she understands this, she'll _still_ be a good and moral person, but she'll be able to forgive others (or herself) for the inevitable, even if occasional, failure to live up to her ideals.

I understand Daria's POV very well, because I had exactly the same sorts of problems growing up.

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...

of

yeah. you could pretty much substitute my name for "Daria" (and "he" for "she" naturally) in this whole discussion, and you'd have a pretty accurate account of my life story, too.

dammit, i always told myself i'd never fall victim to "every song is about me" syndrome. dammit dammit dammit! that's it. i'm a screwup. i'll never forgive myself now...

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

I don't keep grudges very well, so my memory of those who failed to live up to my ideals is probably very short. However, I tend to be far less forgiving of MYSELF when I fail to live up to my own ideals. I have a very good tendency to kick myself, so I can definitely understand Daria's bout of self-loathing in DDMD -- I'd probably be kicking myself if I was in her position.

I hope Daria does learn that she can't be perfect and that she can't expect others to be perfect. When she does that, she'll be happier, and more able to forgive others for their occasional lapses from her ideals. And maybe even herself, though in my experience, it's always easier to forgive others than it is to forgive yourself.

Belle Book

In article , [email] (Al52228) wrote:

Daria's disdain for athletic endeavors probably grew ten-fold after Skip snatched her off the dock for the greased watermelon race (or whatever).

I disagree. I found the irony highly amusing. The idea that people that grew up on, ate only, and marketed homemade food, but can't cook themselves (Jane pulling the wrapper out of her mouth WAS hilarious and unexpected) was clever.

"Al52228" wrote in message news:[email]...

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Ms.

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Fashion

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I don't know...

It seemed that the introduction of a proto-Fashion Club/The Three J's (or Three B's) early in Quinn's life seemed like something out of a mediocre fanfic.

Which this episode, on the whole, felt like.

really no

After Helen closed the garage door, I hoped they kept their shoes on and used the boxes.

The garage floor can be mighty cold; even in the summertime!

;-)

Jane and Trent tasting food with the old

Agreed.

first

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be

I'd give it more of a C- than anything else. As far as I'm concerned it's Strike 2 for Jonathan Greenberg.

This was not a very good ep. It wasn't awful but it wasn't good either.

In my own personal rating scale, I wouldn't even call this a 'snicker' episode.

<It *didn't* satisfy>

Since this is the last season I assume we won't see this guy writing for "Daria" anymore.

Firah