Chris Majors pointed this out to the group last night on the DalNet chat... there's actually a University that's teaching a course on "Daria." Here's the url to the syllabus:
http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~greger/daria.html
I mean, I guess it's kinda cool that you can sit around and watch "Daria" in class, and then conduct the same sort of overanalysis of it that appears on a.t.d. <g>, but geez, I wish I could've taken a class like that when I was an undergrad... I guess... but then again, it might suck all of the fun out of the show.
Weird... truly weird... I wonder, though, if the prerequisite for the class is "Beavis & Butt-Head 101?" <g> What's next, "Who's *Really* The Boss-- A Post-Modern Deconstruction of the Later Work of Tony Danza in a Post-Cold War Society," or " Shrinks Who Need Therapy More Than Their Patients Do: A Clinical Psychologial Pathology Study of Frasier and Niles Crane Using the DSM-IV." or "Reincarnation Belief Systems Depicted In Broadcast TV: A Non-Western Interpretation of the Blackadder Series."
What I really wonder is this: will any of the students come here to sort of, uh, "get inspired?" <g> Maybe I shouldn't have started the Christ-figure jokes after all. <g>
metaphorically, rich.
Quinn: I can't be a brain! My friends will hate me!
Argh! Why does the very thought of this kind of college course
make me want to hurl (with apologies to Miss Alex, yes I read your
post). I mean, if you want to study cartoons, shouldn't it be done
in High School, or maybe at your local Junior College? Just what
kind of job are you going to get with a degree in animation? You
have got to remember that all the drop-outs and HS grads that didn't
go to college have already sucked up all the jobs where you say things
like,"Do you want fries with that?", "Supersize that for you sir?" or
while tearing a ticket in half "Thank you sir, second door on the right,
enjoy the show".
I don't even want to know where this is going on. It just proves
to me that the world won't have to worry about the USA being the last
superpower on earth for very long. The way our educational system
is going, we're heading to hell in a handbasket at an alarming rate.\
<rant mode off>
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
A degree in *animation* as a technical skill is likely going to get you a job in television or film. I suspect that's not what you mean though.
If you mean studying "cartoons" in the sense of studying them for their social and creative impact... That becomes a little harder to define. There's a fuzzy and nebulous world of jobs for these folks. Advertising executives, critics of all sorts, social critics, historians... there's alot of jobs like this out there.
Finally, if you mean studying the themes and techniques used in cartoons, there's a million and one jobs you can get. Somebody's got to write the plays, literature, essays and screenplays of the world. Somebody's got to direct the movies and TV shows. Somebody's got to act in them.
There are some people that this will be suited to. Different authors will use different techniques to get their points across. Different directors will use different techniques to get their points across. Different actors will use different techniques to make their characters come alive. Studying how different authors, directors, actors or teams make the things they do actually *work* and *work well* can be extremely important for someone who wants to work in that field.
So, you're point is unless your entire curriculum is made up of "traditional" classes, you're doomed to a lifetime of standing behind a counter in a funny paper hat? I suspect not.
Okay, so a class in Daria (keep in mind that this is a *class,* not a major, not a specialized course of study) is somehow indicative of our educational system's failure. How so? I'd be interested in finding out precisely where you're taking this one.
Right. People with tchnical skills can always put bread on the table.
Please don't get me wrong but when I read this 'telephone sanitizer' leapt into my sick and twisted mind. I've seen what Ad Execs product and have no problem with them being hunted to extiction. Critics are nothing but parasites living off what others produce and I think that there ought to be some sort of medication for them like there is for ringworms. Historians on the other hand do produce tangible results and information on just how many times we have failed to learn from history. IMNSHO a noble calling.
See techies, above.
I'm going to call the people mentioned above 'artists', the most important people in the world. Why? Because when artists practice their craft well, they produce human emotions in whatever medium they are working in. If it weren't for artists, I do believe that most of humanity would revert to animal behavior.
You are correct.
Okay, I'll cop to it. The Green Eyed Monster reared its' ugly head. Back in the stone age when I was in the educational system you'd be lucky if there was an elective in ceramics much less anything else you could enjoy.
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
Actually, I wouldn't go that far. I do have some friends who are involved in the whole animation thing. The market's pretty wide open right now, at least in the U.S.
Disney's gone through something of a rebirth, and they've been pretty strong on hiring, and Fox is moving into the animation field as well. Warner Bros. is kind of stand-offish in the cinematic realm recently.
Just about everyone's active in new television animation. It pops up everywhere... with more and more cable channels in the mix there's a big market at the moment...
Of course that's just traditional animation, or computer assisted animation. The market for 3D animators is going off the scale.
However, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that those with animation skills will always be able to put food on the table ;^)
Welp, that's an opinion. Ad execs are a very real job possibility in the world. Whether they should be hunted down or not is of secondary importance. The fact is that it's a quite viable occupation for a number of folks. Of course, the number of ad execs and TV producers who go on to run campaigns for political candidates in the U.S. is astounding.
The two American Gov't classes I've taken seemed to focus heavily on television and its effect on modern politics...
Critics are critics. Although my brother puts them in the same category as child molestors and NHL referees, I'm not quite so harsh. They have their purposes. Everyone has their own opinions on what sucks and what's good. Most critics happen to be good at getting across what *they* think sucks and what they think is good. I wouldn't mind pulling in a paycheck for that, personally ;^)
There's a whole range of grey area here. There are people who write about culture, reporters, all kinds of people that might find the study of pop-culture to be rewarding.
Okay. I did. See my response above ;^)
It's possible. I tend to have a dimmer view of artists, but that's just an opinion based on folks I've run into... I've worked in the art community for a number of years, and in my own opinion many of them are barely above animal behavior ;^)
Make of that what you will...
<raises eyebrow> Am I correct in stating your point, or correct in saying I suspect that taking Daria as a class won't doom you to a lifetime in a funny hat saying, "Want to supersize that for 35 cents more?"?
I would like to ask what your opinion of the study of history is? Or how about music majors? I could rant about both, but they're entirely unrelated rants.
Ok, I'll bite. Got a long boring weekend ahead of me.
The study of history. Can I break it into three parts? 1)The chroniclers. 2)The pontificaters. 3)The learners.
1)The chroniclers. The people who record what is happening in their time factually, on parchment or digital disk. Pretty important people as long as they can keep their own viewpoint from clouding the facts. Doubt the study of history wouldn't go far without them.
2)The pontificaters. Armchair politicos, generals, quarterbacks, the weekend tv talking heads, etc. The folks who say,"Wow! Look what just happened. I say that this is going to cause this and this and this.". As if they can predict the future based on isolated happenings in their own little fishbowl. Utterly useless except for entertainment value. I'm going to include history teachers here as they also orate as to what history is and what it was. Herein does danger lie, as the teaching of history can be colored by whatever viewpoint the teacher has. Just take a look at the battle between the 'white man good/bad' schools of thought.
3)The learners. Two basic types again. one sort enjoys learning about various cultures and times either in a classroom, or on their own. Whether for their own entertainment or education, I have no problem with these folks (Hi Miss Alexandra ;) ). More power to them. Then there are the practical learners, those that use history to overcome some obstacle. As an example, WWII Germany, post the splitting of Poland. German eyes turn west and what do they see? New and improved versions of WWI trench warfare along the French border. Remembering what happened in WWI, the Germans decide to just go around the forts and knock on the back door. They also bring along some of those big, armored, mobile boxes with big guns mounted on them that did a lot of damage to their own trenches in WWI. The Germans learned from WWI. The French didn't.
I'll split the music folks into the groups of artists, parasites, and technicians and leave it as an exercise for the students out there. ;)
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
Sorry, I am no good at these at all... One of my friends is surprisingly good at making up little poems, though, which is surprising seeing as how he's in set 4 (out of 5) for English. Most of his "poetry" is unprintable, however. <g> But it's very funny, in a sick, juvenile way. :)
Fuck! How is that possible?!? And they rhymed properly and everything! As I said, I'm no good at this sort of thing at all - it'd have taken me ages....
How long is that, then? :)
Erm, you? <g>
Probably. <g> Except Keiron's never to my knowledge been to Cosham and the amount of 'studying' he does is minimal. <g>
I was in the mood! And I spend a lot of my waking life communicating; but not *normally* in limericks. (I was going to say, "Communicating is what I get paid for," but thought better of it. <g>)
Well, you have other skills I don't.
Oh. Ah. Remembering isn't my top skill (useful for a confessor!). Let's see... About a year, I reckon.
No! That's no fun. 8-) There's a few people in atd who could turn their hand to a limerick, ISTM. We'll wait and see....
A limerick day would beat a non-uniform day, wouldn't it? "All communications on Wednesday will be entirely in the form of limericks, and any student or staff member communicating otherwise will be fined; proceeds to charity." I'd love to hear a physics class taught entirely by limerick. <boggle>
What, you've found out I do poetry as well as limericks? <g>
That specific one wouldn't be too hard. Our Physics text books are full of crappy limericks, for some reason. English might be more difficult, because we're doing MacBeth, which is *not* a limerick. :)
It's all the same to me.... I've never been good with words and writing and stuff. I can get all the grammar and spelling mostly right, but I can't ever think of what to write.... There's no set rules about that, so I find it difficult. There's spelling and grammar rules (pretty crappy ones, but they're there <g>) but nothing to tell you what to write. That is actually the reason why I hate the English language so much. The bloody rules keep changing! Greek has some pretty odd spelling rules (eg, "ai" is pronounced "av"...), but they are always the same!
Scansion doesn't quite work with my English accent - I dare say much better with yours! Good and true to the plot. Will you tolerate a suggestion?
... But when Bobby did say, "Hey Babe, come this way,"...
I like this! Seasonal *and* true to character!
Do you say Ploo-tarch'? We'd say Ploot'-ark. Trifling detail: it conjures up a great image! (..."Woman, serve man!"?...)
And you did it well! 8-)
A purse-toting student called Tiffany, One morning recited this litany, "Check my hemlines are straight. Made-up? I feel great! Check my purse and my hair - look, there's Brittany!"
A capital suggestion! My syllables were off. As they say: "When I'm writing late at night And the words just won't work out quite right Then I stop And I post it like that"
It was my favorite too.
Quite right, it is just a sight rhyme (I couldn't sensibly fit "larch" into a limerick). But do you really say Ploot'-ark? With the "t" on the first syllable? I've always heard it with the second, Ploo-tark. Regional dialects are facinating, but someone had better check the OED.
Well you did it, but I'd rather not rhyme -iffany with -ittany. Not that I've any right to criticise; my best effort was this bit of doggerel:
A purse-toting student called Tiffany Said: "Just wait 'till he gets a whiff o' me In my new perfume I'm certain he'll swoon But not before he starts a-kissin' me!"
The less you think about it, the better it sounds.
Having once got used to IPA [1], I struggle to get it right when I try to use the ISO Latin alphabet to indicate pronounciation. 8-) I was using the hyphen as an arbitrary syllable seperator (not a stop): 'Plootark might have been better!
Here's an attempt to convey the NODE [2] pronounciation:
Stress: first syllable
Pl: normal value
u: as in "t(oo)"
t: normal value
ar: as in "(ar)m" (="f(ah)")
ch: as in "(c)at"
As I hear it, the "t" sound is neither on one syllable nor the other, but forms the point of transition from one to the next.
Martin.
PS In how many other alt.tv.* ngs would we find ourselves discussing the pronounciation of a nineteen-centuries-dead biographer and philosopher's name? Oh, I *like* atd! <g>
[1] In this case, I mean, "International Phonetic Alphabet." I usually mean, "India Pale Ale" - which I've also got used to!
Wrong? I wouldn't say wrong. Sick and twisted? Yeah, I'd say sick and twisted. But then again I like sick and twisted. I do believe that anyone could ask any question here and someone would provide the answer. Now that's weird.
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
It is, isn't it? There's a lot of different "types" of people on here. We've got ale-drinkers, intellectuals, fencers, guitarists....and everyone gets on OK most of the time, which is the most odd thing about a.t.d.
Yeah. I'm tired of participating in newsgroups where everyone is cooler than me. I want to participate in a newsgroup where everyone is smarter than me.
If you had just kept the teletubbies(sp?) to yourself, none of this would have ever happened. <g>
On a more serious note, I'm getting sick and tired of constantly being embarrassed by my elected leaders and their appointed cronies. When are we ever going to learn that anyone who wants to hold a public office should be institutionalized immediately.
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
"Whoever seeks power, is not fit to hold it." Who said that?
I once heard it said that the papal nunciature in each country keeps a list of those members of the clergy who've expressed an interest in becoming a (Catholic) bishop: to see to it that they never do! <g>
I have no idea, but whoever did was right on the money.
I'm trying to think of a single non-political group over here that could do the same thing and I can't come up with anyone. Seems everyone has their own ax to grind and their own ox to save from being gored. Bread and circuses anyone?
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
Ooo! Yes, please! I'd rather not think anymore-- I'd rather have the nice men in suits with the silvery hair tell me what to do and think. It's sooo much easier that way, and for some reason I don't feel as gloomy! ;-)
Well, here's hoping I'm not alive by the time some post-modern Theodoric leads the next Ostrogoth horde to sack Washington.
rich.
"Woooo, what a racket!" -- General Buck Conroy, Publisher, Brutal Mercenary Magazine.
I dunno, but I've got a great quote from "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe," chapter 28 about that. (TRATEOTU is of course part of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy)
"The major problem-one of the major problems, for there are several-one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made president should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: People are a problem."
Anyways, of course I had to share that little lovely with you all. :-)
I think that someone or some group of someones should look for someone that would do a good job at a public office, but would never seek it, and promote their cantidacy against their will. Then, we'll see what happens when someone who really doesn't want to hold that public office is elected to one.
I ADORE THAT SONG!!!! "Uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, cinco, seis".
Amen. Not only will we not be inconvenienced anymore, our fellow UK Daria fans will certainly be benefitted as well as they will actually get to see what has been discussed here. (Little bit of advice guys...start out with "Through the Lens Darkly", then work your way toward "Daria!", and finally go with "The Old and the Beautiful". The rest of the episodes I haven't the slightest clue about, and neither do my esteemed colleagues *g*.)
deena lissa ("he asked for a 13 but they drew a 31...")
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Have you seen the video? What a crack-up. American youth culture at it's finest. Then there is that song that is a cover of an old Beatles tune where they substitute nonsense lyrics with "Get a Job". God, I can't even remember what number the mind is of things to go!
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
I've heard about it from several people, but I haven't seen it because I don't watch TV anymore (not right now, anyway) and there's not really all that many other ways of seeing the video. :)
Oh yeah, I heard that one a while ago. Didn't particularly like it, though, the singer's voice was really annoying.
I liked Britney Spears' song for maybe a second. Then I regained my taste in music. :)
Wow, was it # 1 in the UK charts? Cool. You guys must have some really cool tastes in music. Well, OF COURSE you guys do...most of what I listen to musically has come out of the UK.
The song I'm adoring right now, though, is something that isn't from the UK (at least I don't think so) -- Harvey Danger's "Sooner or Later", from the "200 Cigarettes" soundtrack.
"sooner or later, you'll run away, run away..." :) (hums for a bit)
deena lissa
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Most of what I like comes from the US, actually, although it would appear that Americans have bad musical taste because most of it never got in the charts. :(
I'm going to have to see 200 Cigarettes at some point. Everyone on alt.fan.courtney-love is talking about it and I feel left out. :) Speaking of CL, I have just started to not only be able to listen to, but also actually *like* Celebrity Skin. I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry.... <g>
Americans for the most part DO have poor tastes in music...I mean, how else can you explain Brandy, Monica, the Backstreet Boys, or N'Sync? BAD judgement calls in the record stores here.
Oh, she looks like she's put in a tremendous performance in this movie! I wanna go see it so desperately. I loved Ms. Love in "People vs. Larry Flynt". I think she must be a good actress.
I like "Celebrity Skin", too! I think it more than deserved the Grammy nods it earned. Y'know something...it's weird, because US VH-1 is actually AIRING the videos from that album, y'know, the title track's vid plus "Malibu". I think that has got to be one of the most awesome things to happen.
Off to reply to an e-mail that needs replying....
deena lissa
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
What about the Spice Girls, then? Boyzone, 911, etc - all shite and all from the UK. <g>
I never saw the People vs Larry Flynt 'cos it was an 18 and I was about 14 and looking about 11. Which is odd, because when I was 11 someone told me I looked 14....
Yeah, me too. I still prefer their debut, Pretty On The Inside, but I've finally gotten used to CS. :) It's strange, because most people would be able to get into CS easily and would find it really hard to listen to POTI because of the screaming and the Kim Gordon co-production and stuff, probably - but it was the other way 'round for me, took me 6 months to even give Celebrity Skin a second listen. I hated that album so much and so instantly the first time I heard it! Hmm.
As with that Offspring one, I have still not seen Malibu. I saw the video for Celebrity Skin back when the single came out, before I decided television was shit or whatever it was that made me stop watching it....
And I'd like to post a resounding "AMEN!" in response to that.
AMEN!
(yayyyyy)
deena lissa who feels at home here with you guys, and she's only been here for a tiny amount of time
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Isn't it, though. When I was in high school, I thought I could always find a group like this (as I was part of one. There was a group of three girls, really good friends, consisting of a Jehova's Whitness, an irreverent self-proclaimed "bitch", and a diagnosed schitsophrenic (sp?)). Yeah, we were an odd group. I loved that group. Once I got into college, I never found a simelar group outside Usenet.
Those groups are always the best. When I was in high school, the group I hung out with ranged from Andrea who wanted to become a minister and do misionary work in Russia. And then on the other extreme was Andy. I know she smoked and did pot, and probably drank as well. Oh yeah, and she was also bi, and had girlfriends and boyfriends at various times. It was interesting, to say the least.
My friends are so bloody boring! I don't know any other bisexual people, none of my friends want to become missionaries, and none of them smoke pot (which is not really a bad thing, considering it's illegal....). :)
No, I'd be far more boring than them. At least most of them are funny or bitchy (in a good way) or have something resembling a personality. I'm just weird. There's nothing to me except that. I'm not funny, I have no valuable talents or abilities, and I never have anything to say. The ironic thing is that my friends don't know the half of it. There are many things that few of them no, and several things that none of them know, and one thing that I have never told anyone and never will because it seems too weird and scary even to me, someone used to weirdness.
On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:48:32 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:
I'll bet I've met someone with this "too wierd" aspect. I've seen a lot, and come to the conclusion that there is no "normal," and been able to realize that it's not necessary a bad thing. Of corse, I've had friends that screwed themselves up with drugs, but all of them I'm still in touch with are now trying to clean themselves up, to the best of my knowledge.
Wow, how interesting. My closest friends are all kinda different. There's Monica, who's into cooking and being religious and who'd like to think of herself as being tough but in all actuality is really soft inside. (COOL NOTE: Monica is a "Daria" fan as well! Yes!) There's Veronica, who is a complete bitch most of the time to most people but if you're her friend she'll be a good friend to you for life. Then there's Cristina, a really sweet girl who's very introverted and is also kinda sensitive, but who is perhaps one of the biggest Anglophiles you've ever met. I can't hang around with them all, though, because Monica and Veronica think Cristina's a spoiled brat. *sigh*
deena lissa who realizes that's no real example of extremism but what the hell
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Since moving to Liverpool, for University, I've found myself at a, what? Locus? Junction point? of two circles of friends. They used to be one group, but "things happened", and they split into two. My brother and I were sort of in the middle, as we were still friends with everyone... Now people have all moved away, so there's few people left anymore...
*giggle*..."deena lissa" is a NICKNAME...Diane is my real name if you must know! :)
Ick, that's so sad! To have all these friends and now be left with only a few of them. And not only that but also be faced with a split in the group and you're stuck in the middle. Monica and Veronica have always hated Cristina as long as I've known all three of them, so I haven't been faced with that kind of thing (thankfully).
deena lissa or Diane if you must refer to me by my real name
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Just check out the headers. You can mostly figure out who is from where by them. Tho it doesn't always work. You can't tell from my headers that I'm from Mars. ;)
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
There's a confectionery firm in the UK called Mars.
One of the salesmen, I'm told, used to love it when any of his customers had a new employee or a temp on the reception desk. He'd say, straight-faced, "Good morning. I'm the man from Mars. I have an appointment with [the buyer's name]." Some were cool enough to ask his name, others called the buyer to tell them the man from Mars was here for them. <g>
Don't they have Mars bars in the US? Poor people! I like Mars bars. :)
LOL. I'd not have been able to stop myself laughing when saying that....
"Do you remember the time I knew a girl from Mars, I don't know if you knew....." 10 points to anyone who knows who that's by. :) If nobody gets this one I am leaving. :)
Yeah, they do, but they're somewhat overlooked; always in the shadow of M&M's and some of the other more popular products that Mars turns out. I like them, but they generally aren't in the dorm vending machines, so unless I want to hike up to a gas station or something, I just settle for something else.
I'm guessing that's not the same song as "Martian girl from Planet V, will you marry me, whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa..."
(10 more points to anyone who can get THAT one... of course I won't be surprised if no one does, the group who sings that particular song is just a little irritating IMO.)
--J.
I wish i didn't have to go... this afternoon I have to go driving, like, in a car driving, for the first time. I'm 17 and 1/2, and my parents are forcing me to learn how to drive. I've got the real instructor guy coming and we're going to go out driving and I'm stressed out of my mind, I do NOT want to drive. But I suppose I have to some time... my parents are going to refuse to drive me anywhere if I don't learn how to drive myself, or at least make an effort, and I have to get to work SOMEhow. Sigh... wish me luck, everyone.
It's not the same song, no, fortunately. I don't know who sings it, either, also fortunately. :)
Good luck! I want to learn to drive when I'm 17 (both my parents' driving is kinda scary), but I've been told that 10 days after my 17th birthday it's going to be illegal to drive if you're under 18. I don't know if that's true, but if it is... d'oh!
(raises hand) Hi there, I'm an American...but then again, you already knew that, right?
(sits back down, face beet red)
Hmm...anyone else wanna officially state? ;)
deena lissa
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Big place too. I happen to be in the place that considers itself to be the Navel of the Universe (I know where the universe's belly- button really is, and it's nowhere close to this solar system). South Gay Bay area. SillyCon Valley.
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
Hmm... I'm up in the North Bay California area (about as far "north bay" as you can get, Santa Rosa). I happen to be in the county of people who don't necessarily consider themselves to be the center of the Universe, but will kick anyone's ass who says they have better wine. I dunno, it must be a native thing (I'm a born and bred Washingtonian myself).
OK...if you insist..."Hi there, I'm deena lissa, and I'm a Texan." There you go. :)
...where fully 1/4 of my family lives/is from *g* (actually they're from the Bay Area)
deena lissa who's from the south central portion of Texas so no yee hawing
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
The Old North State is where I live, and half of my family is from (pre-Revolutionary War). (That's North Carolina to "furriners" and Yankees. <g>) The other half of my family is in Schwaben-- the really rural part of Germany, with the cows with the giant bells-- my cousin actually has a farm up in the Allgau, and, yes, the cows all have those giant bells around their necks. Hey, even cows should be allowed to accesorize. I think the FC would at least approve. <g>
Oh, well, back to the State Holiday-- the ACC Tournament is on, and everything here has pretty much ground to a halt. <g>
rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
LOL! And thank you Martin for the explication. I shall attempt to pronounce my "t"s in a "transitional" manner henceforth ;) (I can't respond to your msg directly, quirk of my newsreader) At the risk of changing the subject of this thread, doesn't the current scene in atd remind you a little of "Grove Hills" society from "Gifted?" We're (me too) patting ourselves on the back for our own erudition, or our choice literate company-- "That's not the point. The point is you know who she is. At Grove Hills you can discuss her with people like us" Meanwhile in other threads [Season 3 spoilers--Random...] people are talking about how their IQ's are "two points short of Genuis level" "I have a 165 IQ!" And elsewhere in the same thread a bitter flame war continues to rage, (If you haven't been reading s3 threads, consider yourself fortunate) complete with name-calling and suggestions that others get out of atd "I'll make sure you never set foot in this school again!"
I'm not criticising, just observing. I always liked "Gifted" for its dead-on satire of a certain type of society (now coming true), but most of the atd fans rank it consistently near the bottom. I sometimes wonder why.
Ah, well. May there always remain a few quiet corners in atd. As always -- BB
Parent: And what happens to the other 9%? Principal: Some students require a little "rest" after Grove Hills. Parent: What kind of rest? Principal: Ah, you know, some time away from grades, and away from competition. And occasionally away from the pressure of dressing and feeding themselves. (no comment)
In article , "B_B_England" wrote: 8< Lotsa good points snipped to help Save The Internet (tm) 8<
Might've hit a bit close to home for some, methinks. I've always thought it a pretty dead-on episode, near the top.
I had the "pleasure" of having a "magnet" gifted school like Grove Hill in my area while in HS. We always finished second to the "brains" in our county Scholar's Bowl tourneys. My senior year, we actually beat them, pretty badly, in one of the opening rounds. Unfortunately, it was a double-elim format, and they THRASHED us in the finals. But for that brief, shining moment, they were devastated... :)
Chris Majors Keeper of The Daria FAQ: http://www.auburn.net/~cwmajors/dariafaq.htm
I'd love to be there to watch and listen! <g> Next week: attempting an ellision withouthe aid of a safety net.
this
Why, man, such a thing is unheard of here! ;:-)
Mea culpa, maybe. But ISTM there's a difference between saying we *like* it here and we like the people here, and saying that because we're here, we're superior to those who aren't; or saying we deserve some credit and recognition (from whom?) for being here.
I haven't been, so I will bless my luck. ISTM the only criteria for feeling at home in atd should be that one appreciates Daria, and is willing to be civil and considerate. I wouldn't like it if atd turned into a ghetto for people who would join Mensa (no disrespect to anyone who's in Mensa).
On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:27:00 -0500, "B_B_England" wrote:
I don't like that thread much myself, but there seem to be a few different attitudes within that flamewar. There is, of corse, Q, who is an obvious, and, it appears, highly skilled troll, then there's Joe, who appears to be taking his posts a little too seriously, and finally, Ali, who's just mixing it up for the pure fun of it. I've already said, "please don't feed the trolls", so from here on out, I think I'll steer clear of that thread.
Ok, break out the dictionaries and try saying this out loud.
There once was a lass name of Tiffany
Enamored of a bimbo called Brittany
Though haggled and cajoled
Britt finally allowed
She would not meet with Tiff for epiphany
BTW, we are trying to keep these sort of clean, right?
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
At the listmaster's discretion, but only if you submit three original copies of the proper form [1] and permission signed by a parent or guardian. <grins & ducks>
[1] Special individually numbered forms are available from any bank or post office in the UK. They measure about 142mm by 75mm, and have a picture of HM the Queen on one side, and one of Charles Dickens on the other.
Well, I sorta aimed that one at you. ;) What would you call a troll that's not really a troll (mean and nasty)? A gremlin?
Aww, I think we can sort of push the envelope here, just not too far.
There was a musician named Trent Who was very oddly bent When he was at attention The member not mentioned To the left was decidely sent
There was a crass lad name of Up-Chuck With the ladies he had zero luck To the girls all the day Grrr-Oww he would say When he really meant,"I want to And if you think I'm going to finish that line you're out of your mind!
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Graveyard gives one a unique outlook on life. A dark one.
No, they're too nasty. At least the ones in my sound system are. If I come across my book of Norse mythology, I'll take it to the dentist this lunchtime, and while I wait, I'll see what I can find. (Of course, we know that "Troll" in usenet usage is said originally to have come from the verb, but thanks to anyone who was about to remind us <g>).
I wondered how long before Trent/bent came up! At least you didn't have Trent/bent/went (as in the fellow from Kent). <g>
Holy hobgoblins Batman! He's a Cobold! That's Kobold, Robin. (Sorry!) Quite alright, the Kobolds were believed to come in two types: one was a race of miners after whom the element "Cobalt" is named, the others were friendy house-spirits thought to help peasents and by doing unpleasent jobs for them.
But Mulder, surely no one really believed in these "Kobolds?" It's as crazy as your Mexican goatsucker story. . . Scully, don't start with the goatsuckers again. As for the Kobolds, there is a widespread literature about their existence amongst Teutonic peoples. The case of a Kobold called "Hinzelmann" haunting the Castle Luneburg for many years until 1588 is extensively documented, not to mention other famous Kobolds such as the "Hodeken" and "King Goldemar."
Well, Ok. So we go in there, find the little gremlin or whatever, and we fry his ectoplasmic ass! Come on, Egon! I wouldn't do that, Ray. And *why* is that? Because despite their friendly nature, if angered Kobolds can be very exacting in their revenge. They will blight your crops, break your dishes, spoil your food, and then sit around invisibly laughing at you. Oh. Then how about we leave it some milk and cookies and go back to bed? Great idea, Ray.
Having a bit too much fun mixing folklore and popular culture -- BB
Note: All statements about Kobolds are authenticate, but to give them straight would be just as silly as the shows I parodied. Hey, *somebody* had to do it.
Being half-German m'self, I seem to remember an old story about schrats, and having to knock on wood so they can't hear about your plans... I think they're supposed to be some sort of mischevious little guys that ruin your day, or something. Think really pissed-off elves with a bad attitude. <g> (Kind of like the ones that just blew down 4 screens and one of the shutters from my townhouse today. Rotten little guys.) :P
rich.
Mr. O'Neill: Let's pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!
Daria: You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?
On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 05:18:22 -0500, "B_B_England" wrote:
One problem with all of these limericks is that their syllables aren't quite right. This one is the best by far, and the fourth line has six syllables (should only have five). If I remember correctly, it should be 9 9 5 5 9. Too nitpickey? :p
Easily remedied, if needs be. Said, "That's the bee's knees!"
If I remember correctly, it should
Do you remember correctly? Brewer's: "...in the metre popularized by Edward
Lear in his _Book of Nonsense_ (1846), of which the following is an example:
There was a young lady of Wilts
Who walked up to Scotland on stilts
When they said it was shocking
To show so much stocking
She answered, "Then what about kilts?"
8a 8a 7b 6b 8a !
But the example in Webster's International Encyclopedia is 8a 8a 5b 6b 8/9a.
New Oxford Dictionary of English avoids any example, and only specifies five lines and aabba rhyming.
Shorter Oxford Dictionary claims the term is erroneously applied to Edward Lear's nonsense verse, but specifies nothing: lines, rhyme, nor metre!
Hutchinson's Softback Encyclopedia claims the form first appeared in England in the 1820s, and was popularised by Edward Lear: the example given is 9a 9a 6b 6b 10a.
Yes! 8-p
ISTM there isn't a "correct" syllable count. If there is, then as the authorities can't agree, liberty prevails!
Daria observes. Cynical thoughts develop. Kevin writes an ode.
Jane paints a new work Not Elvis on black velvet Quinn in a mumu.
Helen writes a brief The "slip and fall" must be won Vacation later.
Jake stuck in traffic His blood pressure elevates "Oh, God, it's my eye!"
Quinn shops at Cashman's Sandi says that top is fine, But Quinn knows better.
Ok, they're bad. They're supposed to be. <g> I always like writing haiku because I don't feel tied to a rhyming scheme, and the more cryptic they are, the better they sound, for some strange reason.
While I remember the rule for Haiku being 5-7-5, I checked my OED, and all it said was that a haiku had to consist of 17 syllables, and no particular order was specified. Hm. Oh, well, I don't have my other books handy right now, anyway.
On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:05:34 GMT, [email] (paperpusher) wrote:
Actually, these three are pretty good... and dead-on character, too! (Especially the Helen one...)
Martin (to send E-mail, remove the "nospam" from my E-mail address) ---- Quinn: "When they got nervous, they'd drink cocoa." Helen: "Now, sweetie, there's nothing to worry about." (door slams) "Looters!" ---- Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria! http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
Me too. Hmph. I was quite good at poetry in primary school. I don't know what happened; I reached the age of about nine and things started going downhill rapidly....
We never did Animal Farm. I had to read it, but nobody else did. The teacher, for some reason, singled me out as "gifted" or something, and gave me loads of extra work to do. I hated her. <g> This is presumably how I lost all interest in literature.
I read it, and found to superior to 1984, which taught me to turn and run from "dystopian" literature whenever possible. I wonder just how many people Orwell has turned off of English Lit.?:)
I keep meaning to read 1984, but haven't gotten round to it yet. Probably never will, but should. :)
It wasn't so much Orwell as being forced to read Orwell. :) I was about 11 at the time, so Animal Farm didn't mean much to me at all. I read it again several times after that, though, once I understood what it was all about.
I had to study 1984 and I hated it, it's such a depressing book. I liked Animal Farm though, also Brave New World.
The thing that really bugged me about English was that our teacher never told us we had a choice of books to study for the Eng. Lit. exam: we simply had copies of 1984 dished out and were told this was the book we were doing. The first I knew of the other options was when I saw the list of titles to choose from on the exam paper! If I'd been allowed to study a book I felt enthusiastic about I'm sure I'd have got a better grade. There was actually a question on the exam paper saying "why did you choose this book to study?", so I simply wrote "because we were told to and I didn't know there was a choice." I then went on to list a few titles I would rather have studied. Needless to say I only got a "C" for Eng. Lit.
told us we had a choice of books to study for the Eng. Lit. exam: we simply had copies of 1984 dished out and were told this was the book we were doing. << Shez
The other books were plainly doubleplusungood as choices to do reports on. Work is Joy! Truth is Lies! Down the memory hole with all traitors!
You think that was bad? In another newsgroup there was a discussion about a shirt that this macho guy wore to a get-together, about whether the color of the shirt was pink or salmon--at the same time there was a thread similar to this one which turned into haikus. I posted a haiku about the shirt:
It was pink pink pink Pink pink pink pink pink pink pink And I know my pink
Very good...very good, all. I've liked every single haiku I've thus far read. And to clog up your system with even more haiku, here's my little attempt:
I can't write haikus -- They give me such a headache. And besides, they're dumb.
To my taste, the leading entry so far! It captures the customary nature imagery, and then sort of says. "So what?" I can imagine Daria writing that one.
Brilliant plan. Hm... (curiosity getting the better of her)
We, the Fashion Club, Adore makeup and shopping But hate real friendships.
Hello Andrea, Nice to see you're dressed in black, Else I'd be concerned.
Quinn and Daria Haven't always been close, but They are close sometimes.
Um...no, right? :)
(walks away thinking, "at least I tried...")
deena lissa
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
Yeah, go on. It wouldn't quite on the same level as the rather wonderful alt.music.manics homepage*, but good enough. :) Maybe you should steal that idea and make an alt.tv.daria homepage instead, and include the haikus. :)
*FWIW, here's the url: http://www.endorphin.demon.co.uk/amm/
I'd not choose to give the time to it that something like that would take, and anyway I aim to make my webstuff comply with the KISS principle. There are already so many wonderful Daria websites, there's no point in my trying to do anything other than plug gaps not covered elsewhere.
As you can tell, I'm one of those whose first paradigm of the Web is as a library - but I appreciate the work of those whose paradigm is that of a gallery (see Shez's and Alli's homepages for the website as an artform).
I had a look, and I was bored out of my mind waiting for the graphics to load. <g> [1]
Martin.
[1] Visit the site if you don't get the reference. ;-)
This is so weird. There was a discussion on another newsgroup I go on about haikus, and then someone (whom I know from a different newsgroup) e-mailed me this cat haiku, and now this, people posting haikus and about haikus and stuff.... The world is getting stranger every day... I tell you, it's not me, it's everyone else.... <g>
Spike Milligan did a lot of brilliant short poems. Not exactly haikus but similar. I can even remember some of them:
String Is a very useful thing. Rope is thicker But string is quicker
I did know another one but my mind's gone blank. There's also a poet who was really popular a few years ago who did really short poems, he could really pack the crowds in at his public performances, but I've gone and forgotten his name... and all of his poems... never mind.
No, he does longer ones. I liked his 90's remake of the classic "If..." poem that was shown on tv a couple of years ago.
John Hegley is the one I was thinking of. He used to have little haiku- length poems published every week in some newspaper or other. Maybe they *were* haikus.
I still think that John Cooper Clarke should have been Poet Laureate though. His stuff captured the essence of the Thatcherite 80's, eg. "Beasley Street", "Majorca", "Twat" and so on, all of which are absolute classics in conveying the loathsome squalor that the tories presided over for nearly 20 years.
The boys are on the wagon
The girls are on the shelf
Their common problem is
That they're not someone else
[from Beasley Street]
People mention murder
The moment you arrive
I'd consider killing you
If I thought you were alive
What kind of creature bore you
Was it some kind of bat?
They can't find a good word for you
But I can: twat!
[from "Twat"]
Don't you just love that taste of the bitter dregs of humanity? I'm sure Daria would have a John Cooper Clarke album or book of poems on her shelf.
Limericks are supposed to be bawdy at best. Since this is a family newsgroup, I can't do any *proper* ones ;^)
I'll try anyway <sigh>...
There was a young artist named Jane At parties she was quite a pain, For her features were were fair, But one glance at her hair Revealed a sock with nary a stain.
(That's an episodal limerick based on "The Invitation." For some reason I think it was stuck to her shoulder. Look in my wallet... yep, that's a "Poetic License").
There once was a jock named Kevin, Some might say he was "mana from heaven," But if posed with a query, His eyes would go bleary: For his IQ was just barely seven.
(A general limerick based on Kevin's personality)
There was a school student named Mack, For football he had quite the knack, A foolish young laddie Spouting "Bro" and "Mac Daddy," Was the one thing that he couldn't hack!
(Kevin even makes a cameo appearance.)
The star of the show wears a skirt, But Charles, he's such a poor flirt, Quinn's personality's plastic, Aunt Amy's comments sarcastic But poor Jesse just misses his shirt.
(Ta-da... That last one was hard, and I really cheated on the conventions of the limerick... but I wanted to work Jesse, Upchuck and Aunt Amy into one)
Okay, one more... I'm having fun.
There once was a father named Jake, Whose life was no piece of cake, "Gah! DAMMIT!" he'd cry, With a red bloodshot eye, And a photo his daughter would take.
(That one was a tough one. GAH! DAMMIT! These damned things are addictive, but I'm running out of limerickable characters. Maybe later.)
No, no, no, no, you can't do any *im*proper ones! <g>
[snip limericks]
Wow! What a collection.
I *said* we had talent in this ng; BB, Jon, and Chris have vindicated that view!
There are ways, of course, of doing improper ones in a way that won't frighten the horses, but it takes real skill to create a bowdlerised version that (sort of) works, while allowing those with the right (?) kind of mind to see which words to substitute, and with what. The Radio Three continuity announcer did a brilliant job with the infamous fellow from Cosham. It went nearly like this:
There was a young student from Cosham
Who got out his false teeth to wash 'em.
His tutor said, "Jack,
If you don't put 'em back,
I'll stamp on the blighters and squash 'em."
Now if you need to be told which other words above to substitute, then you're too young and pure of heart to be told. <g>
"The play on words is the noblest form of wit." (Isaac Asimov)
Hah! Not talent, just dumb luck in my case. My brother, now there's talent. He's mastered the art of the limerick to the point of being able to use them as conversational insults. He can actually come up with them on the fly!
Far above my skill and ability. ;^)
I can think of a few that fit in there ;^)
Ah, the limerickal master himself. Mr. Asimov, you are most definately missed.
*bowing and slapping head* I've managed to spell your name wrong *again* in another post. Please forgive me.
I don't know. I think that any society that fails to support it's gifted artists is well on the way of the Roman Empire.
I would surely not define 'education' as just vocational training. Hell, some people can't even handle that. Education doesn't stop when you leave the campus either. What I have a problem with are the professional students who expect me to foot the bill for them to spend their life in school (yes I have run into this type of lower lifeform on campus) and the folks who major in some obscure field only to get pissed off when the only job they can get is flipping burgers. Damn, if someone isn't actively trying to learn something new just about every day, they might as well slit their wrists.
I'll agree. Differnt strokes for different folks.
Fair enough, although there are some who would consider knowing how to knit their own socks an asset. <g> Then there are those who have learned the bitter lesson that nature(life) is red of tooth and claw, and study accordingly.
Jon Armstrong The Space Ranger Be prepared? Damn straight! I was a good little Boy Scout. <sharpening k-bar>
<Warning-- long post ahead.> <A sarcastic comment made by me snipped>
Ah, I love a good discussion... I didn't mean to open up a Can Of Worms with my little quip, but as an undergrad I was exposed to certain classes that elevated my understanding of a work, and others that made me almost want to burn books. <g> I can go into Lit Geek/Social Crit mode if I must... besides, this has the potential to be a very interesting discussion, albeit slightly off-topic. <g>
miss alexandra wrote:
I don't consider "Daria" to be low-brow. I consider shows like "Springer" to be low-brow. As for what passes for high-brow these days, a lot of it is just windy garbage that doesn't say much about anything. (For some reason, I'm thinking of David Foster Wallace right now, and some of the so-called avant-garde music composed these days that's worse than listening to a cat in heat cut steel sheets with a low-speed table saw at 4 AM, but I digress....)
Brow-level is in the eye of the beholder. In my book, low-brow isn't low-brow because it appeals to the masses, it's low-brow because it plays on the darker, baser instincts of people. Hence why I consider Springer and the Faces-of-Death-Wanna-Be-Shows on FOX to be low-brow-- they appeal to our primitive instincts-- to see people debase themselves in front of a national audience (which appeals to our native Superiority Complex-- a primitive instinct), or just to see shit blow up and watch people die (which also appeals to our inner caveman-- or is it caveperson? <g>).
Daria *is* a high-brow show, simply because it covers complex issues in an intelligent way, and it appeals to our higher instincts and principles. The plots seem basic, but they're actually deceptively complex, and force the viewer to *think.* (I could go into details and examples, but it's already *very* late-- I'll do it later if you really want me to.)
<g> Guilty as charged, of course.... but then again, I have a rather jaded view of most Lit Crit-- being a Lit major in College, in some classes we overanalyzed everything to the point of turning art into tar-- something only vaguely related to the original, but with none of the beauty and life of the original-- instead it all turned into a monochromatic sludge with no depth to it anymore. Anyone who seriously contends that Snoopy is a Christ Figure needs to wear a hat when s/he goes out in the sun, and maybe find another hobby besides juggling spent reactor rods. That's a perfect example of someone just "not getting it," and overanalyzing that which shouldn't be analyzed too much at all-- intellectual egotism, if you will. <g>
Yes, I do. It's important that someone study pop culture issues, I guess, but the _basic_ reasons why people enjoy *this* show are pretty simple-- they identify with the characters and their struggles. The more strongly people identify, the more intense their interest in the show. (Hence newsgroups, fansites, etc.) If you could conduct an accurate survey of the personality types of the posters in this group (but not the Myers-Briggs-- it's worse than a horoscope-- a piece of junk as a psychological analytical tool), I'd hypothesize that you'd find that many of the people on this group identify rather strongly with one or more characters in the show, and that's what keeps them glued to the tube, as well as to the NG.
While there are a lot of threads that deal with plot issues, those issues needn't be dismissed lightly, because without a coherent plot and unified theme behind the show, it isn't worth watching. Same goes for any sort of drama-- it's what makes the Iliad compelling to this day-- identification and understanding of universalities of human nature.
People watch TV/movies/read books that they can relate to-- if they don't get it, they don't watch/read it more than once. If they *really* get it, they're hooked like junkies, because someone "out there" *understands them*. The same goes for other forms of expression. It's not as deep as some Lit Crits would like you to think. John Cleese as the Pope hit the nail on the head, "I may not know much about art, but I know what I like." <g>
There are, of course, noble reasons for studying pop culture, as it is the predominant culture of any time period, rather than the "high-brow" culture most people learn about-- and it tells you more about how people basically haven't changed much over time than examining "high-brow" arts from various times-- Punch and Judy are timeless, but not everyone likes Restoration plays. (But why do some people like mimes? What's up with that? <g>)
Well, I have to admit that I like to analyze the shows/music/art/books I like *to a point*, but I have to agree that overanalysis is not always a Good Thing-- you learn too many ugly truths about yourself because you overidentify and project your personality onto whatever it is you're analyzing. <g>
By all means, knock yerself out. <g> I guess it's important to understand *why* people watch "When Animals Attack," but I don't think the *practical* explanation needs to be longer than a sentence. (I'll leave the theoretical to you. <g>) People watch it because they get a strange thrill out of watching some idiot get mauled by a tiger. It's aired because market research shows that a certain number of people out there want to see that sort of shit.
Many people seem to have this strange idea that only the best shows make it to television-- actually the shows that get aired are usually chosen because a network exec knows someone, or has a contract with a producer that requires the network to approve a certain number of pilots for development, or someone wants to showcase a certain actor/actress (who usually has a contract with the network), or that one in a million shot comes through-- someone actually manages to sneak one by the front door (extremely rare.)
Even then, the reality is that most new shows die rather horrible deaths, as most people already identify with another show that's either on at the same time, or that covers a similar area of interest, or the new show just plain sucks (so nobody can relate to it) for any number of reasons-- bad scripts, bad actors, bad lighting, maybe even bad catering. <g> It's all a big game of Battleship played with Nielsen boxes keeping score of hits and misses.
If you come up with a better theory of why some shows fail, and other shows succeed, let me know, please. (And I can think of a lot of big companies who'd want to know it as well.) <g>
As for why people read John Grisham, well, I have *no* idea. <g>
I'm going to bed now. Seiously. If only so I can stare at the ceiling. <g> rich.
"How can we be lying if we're on television?" -- Olly.
<long post warning-- heavy snippage to prevent netjam.> <chris-- I guess I shouldn't have spoken about corporal punishment for long posts, hypocrite that I am. <g>>
miss alexandra wrote:
Ah, so we were actually posting at cross-purposes-- given *that* definition, I agree that low brow culture as you defiine it does need to be studied-- it gives one a much better feel for the actual trends and ideas of a given era than study of some aspects of high brow culture.
You go! <g> I have no problem with ripping apart formal traditions. Like, for example, neckties. I *hate* neckties-- they're completely worthless rags that only serve as a tourniquet for my head, as a disease vector, and as something expensive to spill soup on. For that matter, I don't even like collared shirts-- I have a problem with anything that gives me a sensation of choking, but that is neither here nor there. <g>
Fine by me. <g>
Well, some of these shows were imporant because they broke new ground and some were important because they made some people a *ton* of money. <g> Of course, I have to admit that most of the shows you listed are well-nigh unwatchable in my book, except for earlier Simpsons eps, and early Twin Peaks (but I never could get into it, and it had the same sort of feel as Blue Velvet, only much more drawn-out, so its appeal was limited to me.)
Thanks. <g>
Well, consider the subject matter, though-- it's essentially a televised bildungsroman-- a common theme chosen by many different shows. The difference lies in the approach-- so many of these kinds of shows were either whiny/shrill or preachy. The Daria folks managed to hit a certain point of view for their stories that allows them to cover issues that similar shows have failed to cover well in an approachable fashion. And, yes, the manner in which they do it is important as well, as it teaches other producers a lesson of How To Do It Right.
Um, I think I'll avoid the Gender Argument... I accidentally took a course on Gender Communication as a Junior in college, and it turned into a seminar on why men suck, why the modes of communication men use suck, and why all men should have their mouths bricked up to prevent them from accidentally uttering sexist or otherwise potentially insenitive remarks. (Imagine a more bitter version of Ms. Barch, and you wouldn't stray too far from the mark.) The class consisted of 60 women, and 6 men. The other 5 guys formed a support group (a la Mr. O'Neill, I guess) and tried to find ways to become more sensitive. None of them ever got higher than a C on *anything.* I, however, saw the writing on the wall, opted to take the course Pass/Fail and kept my damn mouth shut. I passed-- that's all that matters. I also learned to avoid discussions of Gender Issues like I'd avoid a horde of rabid, plague-infested rats. <g> It's all a matter of survival skills in the Uni setting, IMO. <g>
As for issues of various cartoons being backlashes, well, I think part of the reason that some of these "edgier" toons came out was simply that the FCC relaxed broadcast standards-- as soon as they allowed broadcast TV shows to use the word "ass" on the air, everyone jumped on the "ass" bandwagon. It didn't make the shows "edgier," just more realistic, as many people use "ass" here in everyday conversation.
Another reason is that studios like Viacom are willing to spend huge amounts of money to develop new animated series in order to compete with studios like Disney. Viacom has committed to spending over $500 Million (American) from 1996-2001, IIRC (Michelle, you know the actual deal, right?). With that kind of bankroll, it's much easier to try and fail a few times until you get it right. As an example, the Rugrats cartoon on Nickelodeon has become the most-watched television cartoon-- it gets higher ratings than any other cartoon, and, therefore, it generates a ton of money for Viacom. So, through taking chances on a lot of different cartoons, Viacom got a significant payback for its investment. Of course, Viacom has also benefitted from other toons under its wings, like Daria, Beavis & Butt-Head, SP, Celebrity Deathmatch, and many others on Nickelodeon, MTV, Comedy Central, and other of its networks.
As for South Park-- they've managed to cut out a swath for themselves that didn't exist 5 years ago-- the broadcast standards were too tight, and the public wasn't ready yet. But thanks to toons like Beavis & Butt-Head and Ren & Stimpy (well, the first season of R&S, anyway), the evelope for being non-PC, for swearing, and for being generally disgusting was pushed out far enought to allow a show like SP to exist and thrive. (Even though recent episodes are really starting to suck big time.)
Yeah, the show's sophistication and level of assumed viewer intellect are part of its charm. <g>
Well, if you feel you *must* take a Jungian approach... <g> I will agree that liking the show and watching the show aren't where it all stops-- the show does have an impact and an influence on its fans, and therefore an influence on society, but tracing the spectrum of possible reactions and societal effects of one show is a task that makes the Augean Stables look like a day in the park. <g>
<twin peaks stuff snipped because i didn't watch the show.>
Ah, yes... now perform a five-fold (or is it four-fold?) scriptural exegesis on the tranformation of Upchuck in "Lab Brat" from jerk to jerk with an "F." <g>
That and clown paintings. <g>
I enjoy overanalyzing some things just to have fun-- to point out the ridiculousness of overanalyzing some things. (Like Chris Majors' and my contest to see which one of us will fail to be able to interpret a Daria character as a Christ figure. <g>) But sometimes analysis is a lot like tequila-- in moderate amounts, it's great... but too much gives you a 3-day hangover with the *worst* headache, and a sworn oath to never touch it again. <g> YMMV.
I like analyzing the show *to a point*, but sometimes threads get way out of hand, and start to suck all the fun out of the show-- over-parsing character dialogue for subtle clues is just plain annoying after a while. But like anyone, I love to give out my opinion. <g>
True. Publishing is another great example.
I agree that it's valid culturally, I just don't think that *all of it* is valid cutlurally. <g>
Sure... come on over to North Carolina, and I'll take you bar hopping on Franklin St. in Chapel Hill. (It has the highest density of bars per square mile of any city in the state, and very good bus and taxi service.) <g>
Sure you don't want a tequila instead? <g>
Well, I wouldn't know about that, as I'm not much of a vodka drinker m'self.
rich.
Quinn: I can't be a brain! My friends will hate me!
Argh! Noooo, they're horrible! I have to wear a tie to school and it's so annoying! It gets covered in paint and clay and stuff in Art, and it's just really annoying....
On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:22:04 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:
Well, I suppose it WOULD be annoying if someone was FORCING you to wear a tie. This type of tie I can't stand! I only wear a tie on Special Occasions(tm).
This *might* be a reference to, or inspired by, the former Wankie National Park (onetime Wankie Game Reserve) in Zimbabwe, named after the nearby town of Wankie. The town was renamed in 1982 to Hwange, and so was the park. I suppose they caught up with Brit slang; perhaps the holiday operators were finding people reluctant to book a safari there. "Where in Western Zimbabwe were you?" "Oh, the bit with the animals." "What's it called?" "I can't remember." "You were there two months!" (etc.)
There's an urban legend that may be true, that someone newly arrived in England innocently opened a Chinese restaurant or takeaway called the "Wang King," and wondered why so many kids rang up just to hear the phone answered, or to ask, "Are you Wang King?" The owner was said to be puzzled by the laughter and unsought advice he got when he said yes.
As atd Duty Dictionary Owner at this hour <g>, I had to look up the term: I'd expected it to be Anglo-Saxon, but it didn't appear until the 1940s. "Of unknown origin."
I'm trying to find a cyber-nanny, net-cop acceptable to way to decribe exactly what 'wank' and therefore 'wank-off' means in Oz. Lets just say that if you believe what the Christian Brothers used to tell you they're be alot more visually-impaired people walking around. ;)
In Oz, it's become used as a general slang for anything useless, a bit show-offy and irritating, hence: 'Jason Priestly is a wanker.'
What does it mean in the states? (thoush I suspect, from the Benny Hill discussions that it's pretty much the same thing)
<warning, very long post ahead... unless you're miss a, you'll probably want to skip and move on to the latest Trent/Daria debate ;-)>
Ok, I think maybe you took some of my previous comments a little *too* seriously... those little <g> things are grins, not grimaces... it's just quicker to type than emoticons. I wasn't criticizing, I was commenting... there's a big difference. I hope this clarifies things. But anyway, let the snippage begin...
miss alexandra wrote:
But if these shows hadn't generated any ratings at all, would they have still been relevant? I agree-- it's a chicken and egg thing. Roseanne may have been groundbreaking, but if no one watches, is it still relevant? Maybe not as much, maybe in a different way. *shrug* It can also be reclassified as the old "tree falling in a forest" thing, too.
Yeah, that I'll agree with-- it's too early to judge the show's impact-- it's only starting season three... but I'll admit that it has value in that it's a shift in POV for animation, but even that remains to be seen, as the effects haven't completely trickled down through the industry.
<Gender Argument Stuff snipped>
Sorry... just wanted to avoid a debate on the Gender Issue, mostly due to bad memories from undergrad days. Perhaps I overemphasized my reluctance and accidentally further muddied the waters. :-) Pretend that it was never uttered, if it's easier that way.
Yep. Damn chickens and eggs. :-) You're allowed to realize your own unique actuality, to paraphrase Mr. O'Neill. :-) I tend to take a jaded view of the entertainment industry. I'll still respect your opinion.
Reread what I said. I did NOT say it was a worthless pursuit, and I did NOT say that anyone who did it should be discounted. I DID say that It's a *very difficult* pursuit, and one that *I* wouldn't choose to undertake on my own due to its difficulty (hence the Augean Stables reference-- I meant it to refer to the difficulty of the task, not the mess-- perhaps I should've picked a more suitable Labor of Heracles :-) ), due to my prior experiences with academe (some of which were good, some of which were absolutely *dreadful*), and due to the fact that my primary interests lie elsewhere. (I.e., I don't want to be in academe for a living-- it doesn't suit my temperment very well.) Do Your Own Thing, by all means. I prefer to write fiction-- I'm a right-brained kind of guy. You do your research-- send me the results, I'd love to know what they are. It's just that I don't like doing research-- I prefer to make things up as I go along. (That way, there are no footnotes to keep track of.) :-) "Your fun isn't necessarily my fun,"-- that's all I was trying to say. (Apparently I didn't do it very well.) :-/
I didn't say that "Daria" didn't have depth, I was simply making a Smart-Assed comment (tm) about overanalysis in extremis of individual eps. I *do* think that past a certain point literary analysis (i.e., plot/character analysis) will yield no more useful information or insight. Where's that point? I have no textbook definition, but when I hear the words "Snoopy" and "Christ figure" in the same sentence, I figure that's pretty close to it. :-)
As for studying the social significance, which is *completely* different from the actual blow-by-blow plot/character development-- that's another can of worms. I *do* think it's a little early to study "Daria" in societal terms, however, as it's too early to tell, yet, what significance, if any, it will have. In a few years, by all means, open up the Institute and let loose the hounds! :-)
And again, I don't care what other people do in their spare time-- it's all fine to me. All I was implying was that it gets on my nerves when certain specific show issues get flogged to a nubbin on this group. I enjoy a good discussion as much as the next person, but after a certain point, certain topics just stop being fun to discuss, and it becomes time to move on.
And I'll admit that sometimes I'm just as guilty of this as the next poster. (E.g., 300+ line posts.) ;-)
*chuckle* I need to get a copy of that.
Of course. That's true. I'll also admit that my definitions don't hold up to much scrutiny... but that's part of my charm. :-) I didn't say I was rational or reasonable *all* the time, or even most of the time. :-) I do enjoy what I consider to be overanalyzing in a facetious way-- Chris Majors (keeper of the almighty FAQ) and I have been keeping up a contest in which we dare each other to define a certain show character as a Christ figure-- remember the old lit crit joke, "When in doubt, find a Christ figure?" Well, yes, sometimes overanalyzing to the point of the ridiculous is fun, mostly because of the tortured logic one must use to prove one's point is oftentime very hilarious. :-)
Right now, it's my turn, and I have to come up with a valid example of Tiffany as a Christ Figure. I'm still working on it. It doesn't suck the fun out of the show for me because I don't take it too seriously.
One of my favorite examples of extreme overanalysis-- Lee Smith wrote a book entitled "Black Mountain Breakdown," which we had to read and analyze for a Colloquium where the author would listen to our ideas in person. Well, we all went to great lengths (both students and faculty) to analyze the book in many different ways, and many well-thought out, deeply insightful papers were written. But when she was asked about the various analyses, she just laughed, and said, "Look, all I was saying was that if people spin too much out of control, they'll wind up having a nervous breakdown and being spoon-fed Jell-O [jelly] in bed by their parents." So much for lit crit. :-)
THAT SAID, literary/artistic analysis can be a VERY USEFUL, mind-expandnig tool when used in moderation, just like tequila... I find that analyzing artistic works of all types gives me an insight into the creator's intent and ideas behind the work, and it gives me interesting ideas to pursue/not pursue on my own. BUT when it passes a certain point (which is different for everyone-- another useless definition, I realize), it starts to lose credibility with me, mostly because I begin to question whether the analyzer is actually describing the CREATOR's intent, or is the analyzer simply superimposing his/her experiences/ideas/worldview on the creator's work. (Now if you can figure out a way to find that boundary, please let me know immediately....) :-)
And *that* is the major beef I have with some of the criticism going on these days-- some people have an Axe to Grind, and wish to do so by imposing *their* POV on everyone else as being "correct," whether the *creators* of the works agree or not, (or suffer from an incurable case of being dead, and are therefore unable to respond) <g>. Fine. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it or give it any weight if I don't agree with their interpretation. That's where the value question fits in-- when someone takes a point of view that the creator of the work disagrees with, who's right? I side with the creator. Again, it's a free world. (Well, partially free.) :-)
"Am I right? Am I wrong? My God what have I done?" -- David Byrne, Talking Heads, "Once in a Lifetime." :-)
*sigh* Fine. Whatever. Take the course, don't take the course. I don't care what other people do to themselves anymore. I wasn't discrediting it, I was trying to place it in a context-- my perceived context being that it was too soon to analyze the cartoon for societal impacts, and that the overanalysis of Things You Like can ruin them for you, unless you can avoid taking it too personally. And also that some universities are putting out courses that *on the surface* sound just a wee bit silly. Yes, it's all dreadfully subjective, isn't it? Guiltty as charged of being subjective. But potential students should be able to see others' points of view before walking into the class. You love it. Great, I'm glad that you find it worthwhile. I'm just a little skeptical about it. That makes 2 out of 6.0x10^9 people on Earth, each of whom has an opinion, and most of whom aren't willing to change it. :-)
No,no,no,no,no! All I was implying was that while SOME television is worth studying, *not all of it is worth studying for its cultural significance.* This isn't because it isn't all relevant, it's just that many programs have well-nigh unmeasureable effects on culture and society. We remember "Dallas," and "The Dukes Of Hazzard," as having cultural impacts but do we remember "Hello Larry" as having one? Of course not-- it was cancelled in 6 weeks. Therefore, unless you're related to McLean Stevenson (the lead actor), the show has a negligible amount of cultural relevance, and isn't worth the time/money/frustration to study.
That's all I was trying to say. Here's hoping I finally got it right. :-)
*sigh* See my comments, _supra_. I didn't say it was without value.
*sigh* Again, see my comments, _supra_. I agree that golf is pointless, but you need to go with me to a golf tournament inTexas. (Where my folks live now.) Texans turn it into a party where there happens to be a golf game going on-- much more fun that way, and it makes it all seem a lot less pointless.
But to return to the topic, I don't have a problem with people taking the class. People are free to do whatever they like. But having taken a seminar in "Music and Culture in Fin-de-Siecle Vienna," and afterwards discovering that we didn't discuss either topic adequately, and that the prof assumed unrealistic levels of musical crit experience *from Freshmen with no musicological experience*, and that disagreeing with the prof would cost you part of a grade, it's my own jaded experience (and the experience of my jaded, cynical friends as well) showing through-- If you want to survive at an American Uni, you have to understand a basic rule-- if you take a class that has a paragraph for a title, or has an incredibly narrow subject area, or a subject area in which you have insufficient experience, don't be surprised if you get seriously burned. (Good God, what a run-on sentence!) :-)
In law school, we referred to this as the "hide the football game" that most law profs play on first year law students-- you wind up having to argue with someone who understands the subject much more thoroughly than you do, yet they refuse to impart their wisdom upon you-- instead you must figure it out for yourself. Great pedagogy for Zen Buddhism, terrible for the Law! (Oh, and BTW, there is *no* football--but you don't find that out until after the class-- after you've expended much energy in trying to find the damn thing.) The same thing happens in *some* (NOT ALL) of these "expert" classes-- the only right answer is the expert's. It's a tricky thing to teach and still allow students to *draw their own conclusions* even if the prof disagrees, and still give the students a fair mark. A prospective student should always talk to the prospective instructor first, else s/he may wind up as jaded and cynical as I am. :-) Of course, YMMV, but why take chances with your future? ;-)
Sorry if the "Post-Cold War Tony Danza" thing offended you-- i just think that *Freshmen/First Years* should learn basic theories of criticism *first* before delving into what I perceive as *possibly* higher-level study disguised as a Freshman Colloquium. It's kind of like taking a beginning swimming class in which in the first lesson the students are required to jump into a 10-m deep tank that might full of sharks or guppies. As for me, I'll have a good long look before I leap, just to make sure that those little fishes aren't pirhanas. :-)
Again, I blame it all on my prior experiences. :-)
No, jelly wrestling never really caught on around here in NC ... as for a bikini, well, I prefer trunks-- I guess I'm a bit of a prude. <g> But everything else, well, yes, I try to do it all with an understated flair. :-)
Do you fence? We could fence for it... To be honest, I'm not really into competitive sports-- I do my Aikido twice a week, but it's a noncompetitive martial art-- it has some similarities to Judo and Jiujitsu, but withou the intent to do permanent physical harm. And I haven't fenced in about 5-6 months.
Don't tempt me. It's the middle of Winter here. (Even though it's not too cold right now.) Mmm, Hawaii... warm breezes, cool drinks with umbrellas in them,,, mmm....
Hey, we could always wrestle on one of those black sand beaches... :-) Much cleaner than jelly or mud. Of course, I'd sunburn in about, oh, 30 seconds. (Red hair & fair skin= 0 to Engulfed in Flame in about 45 seconds in the tropical sun.) :-)
Sorry to hear that. Drink OJ and lots of water to reduce the dehydration. It's what works for me. That and a *lot* of Advil. :-)
I try to take everything objectively, even though everything I say is subjective. It's a contradiction I've learned to live with, as it keeps my temper from going past lukewarm. Besides, it was part of my law training to be detached from intellectual issues-- if one becomes emotionally invested, one can let emotion cloud one's judgment. Not a Good Thing at all when a client's posterior is on the line--makes 'em nervous. :-)
Actually, though, we do agree on a lot of things-- it's just on a few things that we disagree, and that's fine with me. If everyone held the same opinions on everything, the world would be a dreadfully dull place.
hoping you don't take what I say *too* seriously, rich.
Mr. O'Neill: Let's pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!
Daria: You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?
My So-Called Life is an example of a show which was cancelled for lack of ratings but is generally held to have been a landmark in television drama, picking up a cult following for it's realism in particular and also for it's artistry. Most people who actually take the time to watch a couple of episodes are profoundly affected by it, but when it was first shown it wasn't sold well enough to make people actually sit and watch it, and it's not a show that grabs you in the first instant (I know didn't bother watching it on the first run, as it just seemed to consist of people standing around school lockers chatting).
I think the way such a series has a cultural impact outside of the intelligentsia, given it's low ratings, is that it influences people within the industry, changing the way in which subsequent dramas are made. An example of this was Mitchell Kriegman's Clarissa Explains It All, where he persuaded Nickelodeon that there should be a female lead character, whereas conventional wisdom was that you need a male lead or boys wouldn't watch it. In this case the show was very successful, although it only went out on cable in the US, limiting it's coverage. But its ratings caused the Alex Mack series to be cast with a female lead too, whereas Alex was originally going to be a boy. I suspect some other TV series probably also followed suit, and there were also Clarissa copies, notably Blossom (which was nearly sued by Nickelodeon as it even stole the Clarissa title sequence) and Bailey Kippers POV, which took the video effects further. So here a show which only went out on cable had a widespread effect on the children's TV industry, causing them to start using female lead characters when previously they wouldn't have considered it, in the US at least.
On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:43:42 +1100, miss alexandra wrote:
I live in America, and I understood your meaning for backlash. In fact, I've never even heard of Susan Faludi, let alone the "Gender Argument" behind the meaning of "backlash." My complete lack of training might have something to do with this. Just goes to show what can happen when universities cease to educate, and begin to indoctrinate, in Political Correctness. That's why, despite my love of history, I'm not majoring in it. I'll major in Computer Science, and study history at my liesure.
Personally, I think the woman who replied to this completely wrong was just picking a fight. Either she understood, but couldn't resist the opportunity of Her favorite conflict (notice that I capitalized Her, and make your own interpretation), or she has so succesfully been brainwashed by the Feminazi (to use a far right wing term) community that she couldn't see your argument if you smashed it into her face.
Sorry, I cannot see this as a Faludi-style "Backlash."
If anything, "Daria" is perhaps the most feminist, and unabashedly feminist, show on television today.
Who's the heroine here? Daria Morgendorffer. Who is Daria Morgendorffer? A brainy woman who does not suffer fools gladly, who is unafraid to "tell it like it is" and who is constantly bucking a sexist, looks-ist, anti-intellectual patriarchal society and even WINNING a few in her fight.
Daria might do a few "stupid things for a guy" in some of the T/D episodes, but that's far from Quinn's more traditional, un-liberated attitude. Even feminists need love too, and most feminists, contrary to stereotypes, are heterosexual.
Jane Lane is similarly a strong, independent character who takes no shit.
I can think of no better role models for the girls of today than Daria Morgendorffer and/or Jane Lane.
I only glanced at one post in this thread, and couldn't bother to finish it as I thought it was way too overanalytical (even for this group). But seeing this sentence about the sisterhood destroying itself really makes me want to start a flamewar for some reason. * sigh * I'll be good, however...except for this: if you're going to post your thesis or whatever, please check your spelling first. In the above portion of the post five words are misspelled, a couple of them twice.
You know, this reminds me of the time that I was surfing through the "Honorary Bitches" listing at http://www.heartless-bitches.com/ (yes folks, that's really a site), and one of the "Honorary Celeb Bitches" was none other than our Daria. They even included the "I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else" quote.
The URL for the page I found this at is http://www.heartless- bitches.com/heartless/honor.htm
It's cool...she's listed near the bottom of the middle section, right between Naomi Segal Bronstein (really cool crusader) and the mythological Medea.
So our Daria's definitely feminist material. WHOOO HOOO!
So's Jane Lane and even Jodie, for that matter (yeah, even Jodie -- don't let her short skirt fool ya, she's taking charge). And I couldn't be prouder of these three.
deena lissa whose idols have been Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan since at least 1992
"You are lost and alone, but a prisoner of your pride..." (Duran Duran 1986) Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?
I saw you had a link to it and took a look but I didn't get round to reading as far as the Daria ref. I must go check it out again.
BTW can someone tell me who this Faludi person is? Germaine Greer I know, she's on TV in the UK every fortnight or so holding forth about the arts etc. (see my TV guide, complete with pretty pic of her <URL: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/TVguide.html> ) but Faludi I've never heard of. Incidentally what do people think of Astrid Lindgren as a feminist author? (also in my TV guide.)
That's my cue. . .if you'll pardon the intrusion ;)
I can't tell if you're saying something's "brow-level" is determined objectively or subjectively, so I'll take my own advice and ask: Which is it?
OTOH, you're very clear about your definition, and that's the interesting part. As you say: "it's low-brow because it plays on the darker, baser instincts of people, they appeal to our primitive instincts" So low-brow=appealing to primitive instincts And you define "primitive instincts," too: "to see people debase themselves in front of a national audience (which appeals to our native Superiority Complex-- a primitive instinct)," etc. So appealing to primitive instincts=people being publically humiliated, and other appeals to our native Superiority Complex, etc. Therefore, low-brow=people being publically humiliated, and other appeals to our native Superiority Complex, etc
A fine, well elucidated position. Only it doesn't restrict "low-brow-ness" to Jerry Springer. I'd even say that for a large number of people, possibly the majority, "Daria" also appeals to primitive instincts mainly through the Superioity Complex, though in several different ways. I'll state them from most to least general: #1) Humor--"Daria" is obviously a comedy, and that entails humor. What is humor? It think it was Jay Leno who said "humor is always debasing to somebody," and that's basically right. When Brittany squeaks about a "High School Casablanca!" many people are amused. Here they have an example of another person being stupid, and they recognise it and feel superior for that recongition. People enjoy feeling superior--it's a primitive instinct. #2) Identification--Back when the big three fan sites still had active message boards a person could easily find hundreds of people who were claiming proudly that "I AM Daria." Its easy to see the attraction. Daria went around insulting, humiliating, and generally claiming to be manifestly superior to the other, "shallow" members of the species who didn't appreciate her. So the viewers get an ego boost by beliveing themselves, like Daria, to be superior to others who now have the stupidity of the Kevin and Brittany projected onto them. Again, the whole thing is an appeal to the superiority complex--the primitive instinct. #3) "High-brows"--This group likes to claim that "Daria" *as a show* is superior to the entertainments others watch. They will claim it is sophisticated, deep, and that only they *really* appreciate it. They will grant that other people watch it, but without understanding it in the way they do. Yet again, by claiming to be one of the few who *really* understand what they have decreed is a superior programme, they feel superior, again satisfying the native Superiority Complex.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong or shameful about these thought patterns, or that I'm free of them myself. But I am insisting that most everyone, including and perhaps especially the "high-brows," is affected by "primitive instincts" such as the one for superiority. There are probably many ways to differentiate "Daria" from other shows, but the idea that one's audience feels superior by watching and the other's doesn't isn't one of them. We're all human, after all.
Yes, that might clarify matters. "Daria" often has fairly simple plots--but then it only has twenty minutes to work with. For a counter-example: soap operas. Incredibly complex plots which some people devote huge amounts of time to thinking about and analyzing, but few would call them "high-brow."
Intellectual egotism, exactly. I feel rather silly forcing an issue I believe you already understand, but sometimes somebody's got to ask a "stupid" question in order to find an intelligent answer.
Exactly. Many people watch because they identify with the characters. But *why* do they identify? What do they get from doing so? The vicarious feelings of stregnth and superiority people have always felt when listening to hero/heroine stories would be my guess.
It's a shame you can't actually carry out such an experiment. It would be interesting to know if what the identify-ers are alike in an actual resemblence to the character, or in a common need to identify. Also, I suspect there are some who watch for other reasons, so yes, an interesting experimant indeed.
Aboslutely right. But don't forget the exceptions. There are those who watch *because* they "don't get it," but on another level. Some people finds things facinating out of what, for lack of a better term, I'll call a "scientific instinct." It's why they can watch ants, worms, fish, birds, and, in the social sciences, people, endlessly without getting bored. They don't think the barnacles "understand" them, they just want to understand the barnacles. There's a little of this in me. "Always the meta-critic, never the critic" (G.E.B.) ;)
<snip>
"watching some idiot get mauled by a tiger" Hmm, isn't that what "Daria" provides plenty of, but on an intellectual/verbal level rather than physical? I can't but think the enjoyment of Daria's sarcasm arises from the same instinct. And, of course, market reasearch shows a certain number want to watch this as well or it wouldn't be aired either.
<big snip, again--trying, and failing, to keep legnth down>
On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:53:21 -0500, "B_B_England" wrote:
Not to mention the fact that Daria seems to enjoy this sort of entertainment. In fact, nearly all of the television she watches (which, from the jokes she makes, is a LOT), would qualify under this as SUPREMELY low brow. "Sick Sad World" is a tabloid documentary style show. I think the "When ??? Attacks" has been mentioned. "Get the Camera;" aparently, Daria enjoys the suffering of her parents, among others. I have yet to see one example of Daria doing what Brittany told her parents she wished to do: watched the History Channel (or the Discovery Channel, or even Britcoms, no mentions of Monty Python, MST3000, or any of the other things the enture male end, and much of the female end, of the unpopular/intellectual community lay claim to).
Sure, if you take "Daria 101" you might not engage in idle gossip about Daria's romantic interests, but ultimately it's that identification, that impact that it has that gives it value to study. Idle chatter about Daria's love life is a "symptom" of what power it (and other television shows, and works in other media) have.
True.
I will vehemently disagree here. Of course, it's a matter of opinion. I don't think it takes the fun out of something to study it and hack it apart and try to imagine what it might look like if you put it back together again wrong.
Nor do I think it takes the fun out of something to try and figure out *why* something can have the cultural impact that it does, what techniques were used, what kind of writing style. I don't think it sucks the fun out of it to try and figure out why so many people point out how "real" and "true" the show is, when ultimately it's a go for the gut-laugh animated sit-com...
It was quite lovely, actually, we talked about Trent and Daria all the time. You should try it.
Nope. I'm lying. I didn't take the course, but I suspect you know that already ;^)
"Rrrrow! Feisty!" as Upchuck might say ;^)
Yep. Among other things. In these examples you seem to have more working knowledge than I. Ultimately though, the reason one would want to study something is because it has a certain amount of validity, either intended, circumstantial or accidental.
;^)
Nope. Can't say that I am. However, so as to not appear a complete and uneducated *boor,* I did look him up to see what he might have to say. I found a number of essays in the Online Magazine "PC Review." I found his ideas rather interesting. So, while I'm not a Rushkoff baby as yet, there's still some hope ;^)
That's something that every TV executive hates to hear, yet every drug dealer loves to hear. ;^)
Why thank you <bow>.
It's funny you mention it. I've had a serious urge to see that movie again recently. I wanted to do it while certain other movies ("Saving Private Ryan" and "The Thin Red Line") were still relatively fresh on my mind. Part of it has to do with a discussion I'm involved in on subjective reality and objective reality. I'm a huge "compare and contrast fan." ;^)
It's one of those driving hobbies of mine. It usually results in interesting conversations at the very least.
Not a problem. Everyone makes a sweeping generalization once in awhile. See, I just did without thinking ;^)
I'm unsure of the proper response here. Glad to oblige, I guess?
Hehe.
"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle "To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Device #20 -John Carpenter's "Dark Star"
As much as I enjoy overanalyzing Daria, comparing it to Kafka & Vonnegut, etc., I wouldn't want a class in it because I like it. I'm, going to have to overcome this, I know, but reading good things in English classes for example is demeaning to the literature, because the teacher doesn't know the first thing about it (think Mr O'Neill).
Last year the essays the teacher made us write were so bad I felt like a major sellout whenever I wrote them. I sold my ethics for a grade. Dammit.
My corruption has killed the only thing I let myself love (hehe, I came up with that phrase. I like it)
I think the point is: I like Daria, therefore I'd hate to take a class in it
Dagny misery chick, cynic, general loony
Visit the Parsley Firefly http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"One must have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: you still have chaos in you." Friedrich Nietzsche
A class in Daria would have just about the same use as just about any other class. I'm not going to comment on the class in question, because I'm not in it and merely glossed over the syllabus.
Classes have whatever value you're willing to put into them or pull out of them.
My first reaction to this post was 'wow, that sounds cool, it would be much more interesting than physical geography.' But then I went and read what this course was all about and realized that going through some of the stuff that this course requires would not only suck the fun out of "Daria," but it would be a chore (some of those assignments would even border on over-anaylsis for me- and I over analyze everything).
Mike Quinn [email] "...the race is long, and in the end it's only with yourself..."