season 4 question

just one (two rather) quick question/s, does Tom die violently and painfully in the first season four episode??

as you can tell i'm not fond of tom, is the issues with him resolved at all??

-josh

In article , [email] wrote:

Why are people so violently anti-Tom?

Tom seems like a genuinely nice guy who appreciates Jane for all the right reasons.

Jesse, OTOH, is a dumb bunny with nice abs.

I regret ever pairing the two in any of my fics. Totally.

--.\\<-H--

Michelle Klein-Hass said:

I agree. We *know* he's genuinely nice, because he tried to understand Daria and appease her anxieties, rather than doing what he could have easily done given Daria's extreme emotional action ... namely, use it to drive a wedge between Jane and Daria for his own convenience. This would have been a temptation to him whether or not he was interested in a permanent relationship with Jane.

He seems to love Jane for her intelligence, wit, and honesty. He's both attractive and inteligent, his family is probably well-to-do; he obviously could get a better-looking or more socially-acceptable girlfriend if that that was what he was after.

The "Tom stories" that annoy Daria so all involve conversations. It's obvious that, whatever the extent of their physical involvement, Tom is first and foremost a good friend to Jane. It's not a situation where Jane is acting on the basis of a shallow physical attraction.

Which is, of course, precisely why Daria feels threatened by Tom. And probably jealous of Jane for having him. If Jane did simply have the "hots" for Tom, Daria would feel sorry for (and critical of) Jane: she wouldn't want to be in her situation.

Yes. I mean, he's probably a nice guy, too ... he wouldn't be Trent's best friend if he were nasty ... but he's not exactly the brightest bulb in the bunch. I don't know how involved Jane really was with him; however it was kind of pathetic in that flea market episode, when Jane was really trying to get to know him and he totally couldn't grasp anything she was saying.

I could see why Jane would have gone for him in the early episodes ... I can even see (now) why it would happen then instead of earlier or later. Jane meeting Daria was a pivotal event in her life; before then she probably either lacked the confidence or the optimism needed to reach out to other people.

(I do think she may have had casual sex before then, but that's another issue, and that sort of involvement wouldn't have made her any more likely to trust guys, or people in general)

Jesse would have seemed a "safe" guy to reach out to. He's Trent's best friend; she's probably known him most of her life, and given his passivity and his relationship to Trent it's not likely that any flirtation would have gone any farther than Jane wanted it to. But Jane would soon have discovered (and I think they showed her discovering this) that a relationship with Jesse would have been pointless; he simply lacks the brains to relate to her on any level deeper than "You're cool. I like you."

It's interesting that neither Trent nor Daria seems to have noticed or cared about the whole thing with Jane and Jesse. (Trent's not worried when Jane first goes off with Tom; why would he be worried about Jane going off with his own best friend? Daria, on the other hand, is more of a mother hen, and besides that doesn't know Jesse as well as Trent does).

Jane is never shown talking to Daria about Jesse; I suspect that she avoided the subject both because: 1) she rightly suspected that Daria would disapprove, and 2) she knew herself on some level that this wasn't a real good idea. Also, 3) try as she might, she probably couldn't really bring herself to care very much about Jesse.

I'm not a Jesse hater, but I do see why he and Jane couldn't have had any real future together.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

In article , [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

friend;

This is how I had Jane describing the breakup in "Muerta Las Vegaquot;:

"I don't know exactly where it happened, but it happened. For the past few months I think it's all just been physical attraction keeping us together. I came to the realization that as sweet and nice as Jesse is -- and as sexy as Jesse is physically...the intellectual gap between us was just too much." said Jane as she sipped a cranberry juice and soda spritzer.

"To tell you the truth, Jane, I noticed that years ago." replied Daria. "Jesse is certainly attractive. He's got this mix of Jim Morrison and Lou Diamond Phillips going that is pretty hot. But you crack the surface...and there's a whole lot of nothing underneath. He's not dumb. He's just...well...average."

"Yeah, but that surface was enough to keep me going."

"That's ok, though. Sometimes that can be enough if it's just for fun. Now Trent is a whole 'nother story entirely..."

"Yeah...almost the opposite. You crack the surface and there's an ocean down there."

I think that Tom might be an opportunity for Jane to break her mold somehow. He seems like the kind of "nice guy" she could hang with for a while, and he certainly is her intellectual equal. Looks and physical attraction can keep you going for a while, but eventually one has to determine whether or not there's something more to build a relationship on. Look at how quickly Jane dumped Evan in "See Jane Run."

Take care,
--.\\<-H--

Jesse strikes me as more of a layed back guy who dosen't like to talk much. I haven't seen anything that out right screams moron hes just quiet. With the flea market maybe he thought that all of Janes comments about Daria staying with Trent were just moves to be alone with him and that she had a crush on him that he felt nothing back. He was probly just humoring her. Or I could be wrong but until I see some evidence that doesn't come from a fanficim not believing Jesse is a moron. Even if he was he would still be smarter then Kevin.

Cosmo Newanda Hey, why am I the only one here with no clothes on?

Cosmo said:

I honestly don't think he's a "moron"; neither did Michelle Klein-Hass. However, Jane is a genius, possibly super-genius ... someone of merely normal, or indeed slightly above average intelligence, would have a lot of trouble trying to understand her.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

ok,

well the main reason i am anti-tom is cause i fear he will sour the relationship between daria and jane. how can daria and jane have the solid relationship they had before?? jane may now take her issues to Tom rather than daria, as he will now be closer to her.

i realise the story had to expand and grow with new plots and characters, but i think that daria will be all alone now. with the 'relationship' with Trent over, and Jane's focus shifted from her, she may close up totally.

however, i have not seen episode #401 so i really dont know what will happen, i just hope that daria is not left high and dry by her friends.

-josh

PS. i agree with the others that jesse is really just a quiet guy, and it would be great if more is looked into this charater in the comming episodes.

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:08:53 +1030, medication wrote:

Best friends can certainly remain good friends after one of them gets involved in a relationship. Remember, Jane talks to Tom all the time about Daria. She obviously thinks the world about her friend. It would be selfish for Jane to forgo Daria, and Jane is absolutely not going to let that happen. I'm rather curious as to why you would think that could happen, knowing how strong their friendship is. Do you think Jane is that selfish?

I think you underestimate Jane's loyalty and friendship to Daria. As Tom said in Jane's Addition, nothing can ruin their friendship. Jane's too smart for that. I also think Tom is kind enough to understand Jane's friendship with Daria, and will not stand in the way of their friendship - as noted in Jane's Addition where Tom willingly tried to make amends with Daria.

Well, I hope not to spoil it for you, but if you do watch the episode, you'll realize that Daria will certainly be friends with Jane for a long time to come, and neither Tom nor anyone else will stop that. Episode #401 confirms that.

I think you can catch episode #401 on real video at http://www124.pair.com

Cheers, Nicole Lee

Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313 BB- FCD +DT q fN

Nicole Lee wrote:

I would be interested in watching this also (as I missed the first 10 minutes or so and have no idea why Jane and Daria were mad at each other), but this link takes me to a screen that says, "Please visit our main server." So I went to the main server, but don't know where to go from there. Any suggestions? Thanks.

--Jan

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:01:27 -0700, [email] wrote:

Woops. I meant http://www124.pair.com/daria

Cheers, Nicole Lee

Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313 BB- FCD +DT q fN

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:01:27 -0700, [email] wrote:

The Sounds of Cynicism is up at http://www124.pair.com/daria/ . Go to the Movies page and it's there at the bottom...if you haven't seen Behind The Scenes At Daria, it's up as well (unfortunately the quality at 56k leaves much to be desired...sigh).

On another note, I've finally gotten a new server that should be *much* faster and more stable - so virtually all the content is up after a 3 month hiatus (still uploading right now. A gig takes a *long* time to upload even on cable :). As soon as it's complete, the Daria .rm's will be available for local download.

Share and enjoy :)

Damon Orca on #Stars!

Damon Domjan wrote:

Thanks for clarifying that. . .and thanks for providing the movies.

--Jan

[email] (Damon Domjan) wrote in :

Well I still have the Season 1 & 2 episodes in 112K format from the now defunct Daria Warehouse....I could upload them for you if ya want, then you'd have a complete set of Season 1+2, alas I only grabbed the 112k ones as I wanted them in best quality....and had a leased line to d/l on :)

Phill.

Medication said:

Which is, of course, the main thing Daria fears too.

It can't be exactly the same. That's the price of growing up and reaching out to other people ... it inevitably changes your relationship with your old friends.

Maybe. But what's the alternative for Jane? Never have a boyfriend? Have a boyfriend she doesn't really love just for some sort of sexual release? If you think of the characters as real people, you'll see why this sort of development (meeting someone like Tom) was pretty inevitable.

I don't think she will be. First of all, I think Tom would like to be her friend, too. That seemed obvious from "Jane's Addition". Secondly, I think that Daria is learning that she can have other friends, in addition to Jane, without losing her friendship with Jane.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if they centered an ep or two on Mystik Spiral. I'd like to see more about what the non-Trent members of the band are like ... they were pretty fun in "Speedtrapped". And it looks like they're going to be enjoying some success soon.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

True. I almost forgot about that. They carried over the Daria-Jane/Tom thing from Jane's Addition, I would hope they would do a follow up on that "really important audition" that Trent had to run off for. I'd like to see one episode with Mystik Spiral as the main plot focus as well.

A.J.

Cheese said:

I think it would be fun to have, maybe as a summer vacation type episode, Mystik Spiral getting a real tour, with Daria and Jane accompanying them as roadies for a while. Naturally, Daria would wind up having to get them out of trouble ...

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Heh... I think that's already been done about 11,000 times in fanficland. ;-) Not that I'm complaining-- it's an irresistable premise, don'cha think? (Especially if you tend to be on the 'shippery side....)

wondering just what exactly the rides at fanficland *are*... rich.

Jane: Usually when I have this dream I'm wearing pink taffeta.

On the mountaintop, [email] spake thusly:

One word: _wild._

-Mindy

Jordan said:

Heck, maybe that'll be in that lovely promised TV movie *toothy grin* ahhh, the braces paid off eh? heh heh...

cheryl

In article ,

My guess is that if they don't do it this season, they'll lead up to it to be in the movie. It makes perfect sense, the movie is basically what the main characters did over summer vacation, a Mystik Spiral tour with Daria and Jane accompanying them would fit in perfectly!

A.J.

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:08:53 +1030, medication wrote:

They can't, at least not like they had before.

That's part of the point. Relationships change; stagnant ones are dead.

[email] (Glenn Olson) wrote in :

And as I have said before this tension that we see in the Daria-Jane relationship, I find far more interesting than all the speculation about Trent.....guess I've been in that situation personally a couple of times and so can sympathise with how Daria feels, things actually got quite nasty with one ex-friend at one point...hope it don't go that far with Daria- Jane.

Phill.

Before I start, let me just say that this isn't really a response to you, but rather a response to all the comments I've seen regarding ep. 401 :takes a deep breath:

Prepare for a long post. <begin rambling>

I personally think it's a good thing that this did happen because it was bound to at some point. The chances of Daria and Jane going to the same school after graduation doesn't seem likely. I could definitely see Jane wanting to go off to some big art school, as well as Daria getting a scholarship out of state and wanting to move as far away from Lawndale as possible. Their friendship is strong enough to withstand the boyfriend/girlfriend factor. Daria will realize that just because best friends don't spend all their free time together doesn't mean that they're not best friends anymore. (Pretty much the same point Jane made at the end of the episode.) I'm with Jordan on this one and I say Jane is a smart gal, she won't just all of a sudden ditch Daria because she has Tom. Jane knows that good friends are few and far between and I don't think she plans on letting Daria go anytime soon. :)

Forgive me for rambling, but on to my point. Daria hasn't really even taken the time out to try and expand her social group. (Bare with me a few, I don't mean that in a Helen sort of way.. or maybe I do. <g>) I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, because lets face it, the majority of the people who go to school with her are not ones she'd like to associate with anyway. However, since she's had Jane by her side - as much as people isolated her because of her looks or because she was a 'brain', she in turn pretty much does the same thing. She assumed that they were too 'stupid' or didn't have enough in common with her to hold a simple conversation. She judged them the way they judged her. If I looked at Daria from afar without really knowing her, I'd probably think she was stuck up. Obviously that's not the case, and we as viewers know this. However, from a peers perspective (and lets keep in mind that this is High School) it's really easy to jump to conclusions and not want to give people a chance based on first impressions. Heck, even a good deal of adults are guilty of this. You're only tapping the surface really. As the show goes on, through character development we begin to see that not everyone is as dumb, completely shallow, or immune to what other people think or say as we previously were lead to believe. (err cept maybe Kevin. heh!)

Daria is mature and confident enough to stand by her choices and be who she truly is; unafraid of the consequences it may cause (i.e. being an outcast.) Most kids aren't, and they're afraid to be alone. High School sucks and it's hard enough as is. It's even worse not having any friends to share the experience of it all with, or make them suffer with you too, whatever ;) This is why kids form or latch onto cliques and end up conforming to ideals and actions which they might not necessarily approve of. They just want to fit in, and most people at that age are too busy trying to find their own identity that they're trying on someone else's. Not every 17 year old has the confidence to do what Daria does. This isn't just a 'teen' thing, a good deal of adults still share this problem. I think this is why we see a lot of people end up in horrible relationships and get called "needy" (the whole latching on to one person and relying on them for soul happiness.) It's human nature to want to be social, have friends, to fit in, and want to be needed, especially in a really awkward phase like high school. :P

Relying on one person for all social things is never really a good idea no matter how good of friends you are. It's obvious that Daria really connected with Jane and I just can't see her going back to the "anti-social" "solitude" lifestyle. I don't in any way think Daria should latch onto anyone just to have company, but I do think that this change with Tom around will force her to realize that not everyone is as shallow and horrible as she thinks they are.

Insptrmaz said:

I agree. Because one or both of them were bound to acquire new friends, or boyfriends, or both.

Well ... Daria and Jane might wind up going to the same school because they want to be together. They are very close. OTOH ...

Now, Jane has someone else to coordinate her college plans with. It's not likely that Daria, Jane, *and* Tom are going to be able to go to the same school, and if not, Jane's going to have to make a decision. Daria's her friend, but it's obvious that she's becoming quite serious about Tom. Jane might wind up going off with Tom, instead. Or with neither.

(How's that "friendship triangle" for a variant on the classic "love triangle"?)

Jane doesn't have to stop being friends with Daria if she doesn't go to the same school with him. She doesn't even have to stop seeing Tom (though this is *much* harder). But relationships can't be as close when distance intervenes.

There have been foreshadowings of this. Note Daria's perfect grades. Note Jane's desire to go to New York City (in "The Lost Girls").

Absolutely. In fact every indication from the show is that Daria is highly charismatic; in each of the first two epsidodes "The Esteemsters" and "Invitation" she makes a friend, without really trying. (Even before then she had no trouble manipulating Beavis and Butthead, but then again that's like shooting fish in a barrel). Daria impresses college kids in "Gifted", and Trent and Jesse in "Road Worriers". People flock to her for advice in "The Misery Chick". When Quinn pretends to be an intellectual, Daria easily duplicates Quinn's flirtatiousness. In general, when Daria speaks, people listen. (*)

The evidence is that, despite Daria's claim that people don't accept her, that she rejects more than being rejected. She has at least as much charisma as her sister, and unlike her sister's, it works on non-shallow people.

(*) "My broker's E. F. Hutton, and he says ..." ad joke.

her

She even avoided making friends with people like Jodie and Mack, who were clearly her intellectual equals; or Andrea, who is a fellow non-conformist.

she

She *is* arrogant, though. With the sort of arrogance not uncommon to the young and highly intelligent. However, she doesn't take it too far ... that's made obvious in "Gifted" where she meets some genuine intellectual snobs.

Daria probably scares her peers a lot. It's obvious that she even intimidates teachers ... even Ms. Li has backed down before her on a couple of occasions. She's brilliant, critical, sarcastic, and often fearless. Only self-confident people brave that sort of person, and most high school kids aren't self-confident.

previously were

I think that Kevin isn't totally shallow. He is totally dumb, though.

Yes. Ultimately your interests will diverge on something, even if it's something trivial, and if that's the only friend you have the pain of the divergence is magnified out of all proportion ("See Jane Run").

I can't either.

Jodie isn't, for example. Neither is Mack, for that matter. Brittany's scatterbrained, but has frequently shown that she genuinely cares about Daria. Even Kevin basically likes her.

Part

books,

Yes. Daria is going to have to take risks on people. Fortunately she has self-confidence, a strong moral center, and a lot of common sense; I don't think she'll be burned too badly by her (inevitable) mistakes.

she

In a sense, it was a loss of emotional virginity.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

ok, ok, ok!!!! i think the word 'anti-tom' was the wrong one to use. i know he is a nice guy and really respects jane. i know jane wont leave daria out, but i thought daria might be put-off and withdraw as the relationship between jane and tom grows.

i agree with Jordan and Glenn that the relationship cannot be the exact same between daria and jane. i dont expect jane to be only for daria. i'm just hoping that daria doesnt drift away from jane as time passes.

people have been pointing out that Tom is nice and has made an effort to be a friend to daria, and i agree fully. maybe they will all get along, but i fear that they will not.

either way, the episodes coming are sure to live up to the daria we know and love.

-josh

On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 00:07:09 +1030, medication wrote:

Won't happen. Unless the writers get replaced with the standard monkey-typewriter combo that the rest of TVLand adheres to...

IMO, it wouldn't be any fun if they just 'all got along.'

Glenn Olson said:

<shudder> I hope not. One of the things I *like* about *Daria* is that the stories are tightly tied to the nature of the characters (even when they do wild "dream" stories like *Depth Takes a Holiday*, the characters' behavior remains true to their nature). I *hate* most TV because the characters have no particular nature; they're "generically healthy / neurotic" people. (I put it like that because what most TV writers consider mentally "healthy" behavior is what I consider fairly neurotic behavior). I *love* the fact that the characters on *Daria* are real individuals.

Yes. Character conflict is interesting. Of course, if they keep Tom as Jane's boyfriend, past a certain point Daria will probably accept the situation, and maybe even come to like Tom (he is very likable), but it's better if this happens over time rather than in the "one episode solution" fashion of most series TV).

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

Glenn Olson said:

They can build a new one, but this would be one *not* based on being each other's only friends. And that is their only choice, short of regressing or giving up their friendship.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

In article , [email] wrote:

episode??

at all??

Well, to be safe, I'll start with spoiler space. ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) ~ ?

< @ @ @ @ @ I like these. What are they called? Just an "at"? # # # Pound signs are also fun. I think they should be used on the Internet # as "sarcasm marks" because from the side they look like a set of # firmly gritted teeth. They would enclose a sentence like parentheses. # # And before anyone else says it: # #That sounds like a very interesting idea#

OK, back to our story. Sorry to disappoint you, but Tom and his Pinto are alive and well, and Jane likes both of them. For Daria, the jury still seems to be out, but most of her dislike for Tom still stems from him being in competition with her for Jane's attention. Part of the plot of Episode #4-1 centers around this. For the record, we also know now that he goes to some prep school, which explains why he's never seen around Lawndale High.

In article , Tice Rust wrote:

Internet

parentheses.

#Well, THAT worked well.# Just so I don't come off looking completely incoherent, those pound signs were supposed to all be in a nice column instead of spread out throughout the paragraph, making it sound like I was becoming sarcastic at random points in each sentence. That's all, please pay no mind to the crazy punctuation man...

Josh said:

No.

Why not?

(SPOILERS for first S4 episode) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Daria isn't happy with him being a preppy, but this is more of an excuse for her not being happy with Jane's admiration for him and attention to him instead of her. This is one of the factors motivating the episode's plot.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

[email] (medication) wrote in :

<BUTTHEAD> uhuhuuhhu that would be cool uhuhuuhhu </BUTTHEAD>

Seriously what's your problem with him ? I have no prob as long as he don't become too center stage...same goes for whoever is with Daria.

Phill.