My opinions on "Boxing Daria" #513

Warning! If you have not seen "Boxing Daria" Do NOT read furthur. This section is intended as a buffer zone. A type of "protective layer" for what is inside. Information. True, if you desire any and all information on "Boxing Daria" Go ahead. Read on.

Ah, what to say? Where to start?

First of all, I liked this last episode. It obviously is more of a "deep" episode, trying to show how Daria became who she is today, or rather, the girl we saw all the way back in Esteemsters. I just goes to show that childhood events can have extremely traumatic influences on people.

Daria as a child is similar to the Daria we saw at the beginning of Esteemsters. She was intelligent, she didn't like to socialize, and she didn't like psychologists,(by her responses, she thought the entire thing was a waste of time.) The one thing her childhood self lacked however, was her colder-than-ice-harder-than-stone-sharp-as-a-dagger sarcasm. It could be that she was simply too nice as a kid. During her conversation with Jane, one can see her progression from non-participation into Shakespearian insults (Hang, whore-son!) and beyond. It could be that simply having to interact with so many idiots made her that way. Perhaps further speculation for the movie?

However, it's funny that only now she realizes the 'implications' of her actions. I suppose that when she was little, she didn't really consider the implications of her actions (she evidently thought the psychologist was a waste of time.) I guess that she tried to block things out as a child, and when the memories were re-awakened years later, looking at it in that context caused Daria to jump to conclusions (she tends to do this a lot.)

Well, we finally know why Jake does not like working for anyone else. First his father, then Corporal what's-his-face, then "Mini-Mussolini", he really needs to do what he wants for a change (which is probably why you often see him indulging himself.)

Daria REALLY needs to give Tom a break. Not many people can take this kind of treatment for long.

One thing I noticed about Daria is that she seems to jump to conclusions a lot, generally the most negative that she could find. It probably stems from the fact that since she thinks so much, that she can think things through when other people can. This leaves her constantly searching for implications and double meanings, most of which were never intended. Of course, she then filters it through her own perception.

One thing that does bug me is, why did Daria eventually volunteer as a tour guide. Is she trying to make her parents happy (doubtful) trying to prove to herself that she can be sociable (doubtful) or simply being nice (doubtful). Personally, I think it was just an excuse to show the last girl in the group. She has the exact same black skirt and boots that Daria has. Symbolism perhaps?

Just as a disclaimer, I have been forced to dissect "Wating for Godot" on one occasion, and hence have developed a nasty habit of reading symbolism in places where I KNOW they don't' exist. Please forgive my ranting if it sounds too far fetched.

I thought that this episode was a nice conclusion and ties up quite a lot of the loose points. While I'm sad to see Daria go, I'm pleased that they gave it a fitting farewell.

Fong Chih said:

But is the "protective layer" neon-colored?

She got into the habit of first shutting out everyone else, and then of striking back at every attempt to connect with callous sarcasm. And then she didn't examine that habit, for a _long_ time.

This can happen to people. Even smart people. Maybe even _especially_ smart people.

She's examining it now because she's coming to realize that she is hurting people who truly _can_ conect with her on her own level, and who truly care about her, with this habit. Like her parents ... like Tom ... and like Jane.

I hope that now that she has come to this realization, she will stop shutting out Tom so much. I'm not talking about sex here -- Tom really meant it when he said that whether or not they have sex isn't essential to their relationship. I'm talking about the _many_ times in which we've seen Tom _trying_ to be there for her, and she's just cut off all contact with him until her bad mood passed. _That's_ going to destroy the relationship if she keeps it up, no matter whether or not she decides to give him her virginity.

(doubtful).

Because she realized how much _she_ could have used a friendly hand extended by someone like her when _she_ was 14, probably. We saw her begin to realize this in IIFY.

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That, and she and Jane get to skip classes for an afternoon.

BA wrote in message news:[email]...

extended

Thus ending up with synthesis -- their "old ways" are *not* discarded in the light of the newer realizations.

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote in message news:...

Tom is the most tolerant person I've ever seen. Daria's mood never swings so far as it does with Tom, and he certainly seems to have developed an immunity to it, or a compassion for it.

I remember from "Esteemsters," when Ms. Li was talking about "sailing the seas of student life," Daria whispered, "S.O.S., girl overboard," to the girl next to her. The girl backed away.

I'm guessing Daria realized that it's the kids like her -- the isolated ones -- who really need an introduction to life at Lawndale, and they need to see that it's all right to laugh at it. The rest of the crowd would probably be fine with or without a tour guide, but Daria probably wanted to send the message that, yes, Lawndale is a nest of unpleasantness, and the best way to deal with it is to stare it in the eye and mock it.

David

David wrote in message news:[email]...> > Fong Chih said:

hurting

care

Jane.

And apparently she had not realized that those "at her own level" are NOT perennially in emotional full combat armor. She was, so she expected them to be.

And that is the key: to laugh at it, to mock it. Not to take the bullcrap as a direct affront, or as a crime against humanity (worthy of spraying the place with gunfire).

Jose Diaz said:

that's a very good point. She may not have even realized that she _could_ hurt them by anything other than an intentional attack.

David said:

I wonder if Daria realizes this? Or that 99% of men, and even 80-90% of the men she'd like, wouldn't put up with her behavior long-term?

Well-put.

David wrote:

He certainly is, and it could be that his tolerance is because he truly cares for Daria (I don't think he's a wimp like Mr. O'Neill), but even his patience has to have limits. Fortunately, if Daria's come to learn how destructive her shield could be, she might learn to give Tom some slack. We'll wait and see when we see the movie.

And laugh at it, and yourself.

Belle Book

every time daria does something immature and/or inconsiderate (although it's unintentional), i hold my breath as tom gets a little (sometimes more than a little) pissed, daria says/does something maybe even worse back, and then just when i think tom'll snap either him or daria makes some sort of sarcastic point or joke or twist of speech, and then "everything's okay!" personally, if _i_ were daria, and i had a guy like tom, i'd treat him with alot more respect. i give him alot of credit for putting up with daria's, how shall we say, (occasional) bullshit? i know, i know, she's "scared" or "not ready," but sometimes she acts really immature, even hurtful to tom, and i wonder if one of these days he won't just give up. he must love her alot to put up with her...

Belle Book said:

He's no wimp.

We've seen him start to get angry at Daria, _and she usually backs off when he does_. I think she realizes that, precisely _because_ he doesn't fly off the handle easily, that if he _does_ start to get angry it means that she's _seriously_ offending him.

(the opposite of Jake, who gets angry easily, and calms back down easily).

(interesting, that both the guys Daria's really liked were _calm_ -- Tom and Trent are similar in that respect).

Now that I've seen how nice Tom is, I really don't want Daria to lose him.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

I was right, then -- Tom's definitely no wimp, though Mr. O'Neill is.

Definitely interesting, but maybe understandable in light of what she sees at home -- Jake does get angry easily, though he calms back down just as easily, so maybe she just wants a guy who's the opposite of Jake in that regard -- someone who is slow to anger and generally calm. Unfortunately for Trent, he's way too relaxed for his own -- and Daria's -- good.

I don't really want Daria to lose him, either. I don't think I ever really wanted her to do that.

Belle Book

I don't think it's so much a question of "slack" as deciding what she really feels about him and acting on it.

As for Tom's patience: He knew Daria all the time he was dating Jane and had a pretty good idea of what he was getting into. Which isn't to say he doesn't have his limits.

M Man

M Man wrote:

Good point. Maybe she'll figure out what she really feels about him in the movie -- and then act on her feelings.

True. I forgot how patient he was with her in "Jane's Addition", his first appearance. He had to have a good idea of what he was getting into when he began dating Daria just from his memory of the beginning of his relationship with Jane in that episode.

Belle Book

Fong Chih wrote in message news:9h9ars$rsv$[email]...

This scene cut damn close to home, I remember a similar trip to the kiddie-shrink at about the same point in my life -- and thinking the image-association puzzles were really lame :) Of course, *to the child* it IS a waste of time, if s/he doesn't like puzzles or showing off how much s/he knows.

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Thing is, Jake and Helen were careless with what they said within earshot of Daria, specially if they "knew" she was so smart. I could see how what happened after her visit to the psychologist would later on reinforce her aversion to competitive or participatory activity and her fear of rejection/failure -- she felt she had been tested, and found wanting (though apparently the Doctor found nothing extaordinary about her either good or bad).

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really

see

And why he gets so flustered when things don't work out his way (be it work, family, squirrels): the man feels he's not in control of his own life. Part of it filters out in his 11-years-ago quarrel with Helen: at one point he seems to be arguing for letting the girl just be the way she is -- maybe subconsciously hoping his child *will* be able to live life her way.

Of course, Daria kept on getting tested, counseled, interviewed, teased and referred to self-esteem training through most of her life so far for attempting just that... and that probably was what nurtured the outward hostility later on.

Jose Diaz wrote:

And I was reminded of Daria's reply in "Esteemsters" to Mrs. Manson when the child psychologist in "Boxing Daria" mentioned the horses galloping across a plain.

They were arguing, and when you argue you raise your voice -- and you probably forget that someone else might be listening. Unfortunately, that helped trigger the development of Daria's shell of cynicism and sarcasm to the point where it could be destructive to herself as well as to others.

I'd say it probably did.

Belle Book

Belle Book wrote in message ...

(snip)

But it's interesting that Jake was acting just like his father and Corporal whats-his-face by getting loud and in-your-face about Daria not fitting in. Rookie parenting mistake? Or the apple not falling far from the tree? Thankfully, he seems to have become much more able to live with Daria's shortcomings. Wonder what changed him?

work,

Part

and

And led to this famous Daria quote: "I have high self-esteem. I just have low esteem for everyone else."

Loud and in-your-face?

All he said was that she should at least give the other kids a chance before shutting them all out just because of the ones who call her egghead. And he said it very calmly and unpatronizingly.

When he was loud, it was in his arguement with Helen. And there, his entire stance was "She doesn't want to 'fit in' so don't try to force her to."

In other words, "don't treat her the way my father, my teachers and my boss have all treated me."

"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_

Barmor said:

SPOILERS for Boxing Daria
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Maybe we see here one of the _big_ reasons why Daria admires Jake, despite his faults.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Fong Chih" did write in news:9h9ars$rsv$[email], on the date of 25 Jun 2001: F r e a k i n ' s p o i l e r - s p a c e - f o r - f r e a k i n ' 5 1 3 [snippage]

My guess would be that she's *too* perceptive; she tries to block things out because it's so painful to take them in. Being aware of everything that's going on around you can be a curse. Throughout the series, she's reacted badly to well-meant attempts to reach out to her, because she viewed them as threats, and they *were* threats, in one respect; as Quinn pointed out in "Pierce Me," Daria's a 'pain wimp.' She can't stand to be hurt, and you can't let someone into your life unless you're prepared to suffer. (Maybe Daria should take up Buddhism...)

Hmm...if he really loves her, he can take it for years, I'd say. (Not that I'm speaking from personal experience, or anything.)

I had a different take on this: to me, it looked as though Daria acknowledged that Mr. O'Neill was reaching out to her as a person. In their second scene in the hallway, he tells her that he *doesn't* want her to give the canned "Lawndale is Great" speech; he wants her to share *her* perspective with the incoming students. She accuses him of trying to paint her as a misfit and says "I can get along with people!" His response is "Of course you can, Daria, that's my point!" By the end of the episode Daria has come to see that her family, her friends, and even Mr. O'Neill care about her for who she is; I think she decided to cut him some slack because of it.

Don't worry about it. I've often seen symbolism in 'Daria', and I'm pretty sure at least some of it is intentional. It's also carefully integrated into the stories, which impresses the hell out of me.

I loved this episode, but I'm still eagerly looking forward to the final movie. (I mean, no Fashion Club scenes in the last three episodes! What's up with that? ^_^)

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Corvus Marinus said:

Yep. Especially when, in some cases, she didn't fully understand it at the time it was happening.

Which was at least part of her problem in "My Night at Daria's".

Yes, but if she isn't aware that she's doing this to him, he will _have_ to take it for years, until he finally explodes on her and leaves her for good.

This would not be a happy outcome for Daria.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in news:[email], on the date of 26 Jun 2001:

F r e a k i n ' s p o i l e r - s p a c e - f o r - f r e a k i n ' 5 1 3

True. Of course, her solution to the problem had a slight flaw; it needed Tom's cooperation to work.

It seems to me that she does generally realize and apologize for her behavior (for example, in "The Story of D" and "Aunt Nauseam"); I doubt if Tom and Daria will ever have a 'normal' relationship, but he's hardly a pushover, and Daria is making progress - I wouldn't count them out yet.

On the other hand, consider the fact that Jake and Helen have been able to stay together for all these years; Tom and Daria already communicate better than Jake and Helen do!

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message news:[email]...

What's

The last three episodes just weren't very funny, period. Boxing Daria was particularly straight-faced. I liked both Boxing Daria, and My Night With Daria, for the characterization, but the writers seem to have sort of lost track of that magic mix they had with Lucky Strike, which was both the funniest episode ("If you're not going to take this seriously, we might as well just forget it.") and the best character-development episode of the season. Thank God for Life in the Past Lane, which didn't have much character development at all (other than proving that Daria/Tom/Jane really were friends again, which was nice to know), but had some really great comedy writing.

I hope they can get their comedy and drama chops back together in time for the movie.

Chris McCubbin wrote:

Incidentally, the final two episodes of Season 4, "Fire!" and "Dye! Dye! My Darling", were also not very funny, either. They were very dramatic episodes, especially DDMD. Fortunately, I think they did get the mixture of comedy and drama right for "Is It Fall Yet?".

Belle Book

In article , Corvus Marinus wrote:

Until he finaly decides that she'd be better off without him. If she doesn't want him there for emotional support, then why is he there?

Chris Mack said:

Well ... they love each other.

In article , Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

What's love got to do with it? ^_^

[email] (Corvus Marinus) wrote in message news:...

I have to say, of all the dangerous educators at Lawndale High (and they all seem to have some level of toxicity with the possible exception of the art teacher), I think Timothy O'Neill is probably the worst of the bunch. He's so well intentioned and so HOPELESSLY ineffective. It's like there's some disconnect in his thought process that can turn a good idea into an absolute disaster by the time it comes out of his mouth.

Link had it absolutely right when he said in IIFY that the problem is that Timothy just SUCKS at helping people, no matter how desperate he is to do so. In fact, maybe it's that desperation that makes him so sloppy and misguided. It's like he's trying to be compassionate and supportive from a manual.

Don't get me wrong... I'm fond of him, and I'm glad he's in Daria's orbit for entertainment value, but I'd probably clear a wide berth of him were he real.

David

David said:

Very true.

Because O'Neill blinds himself to all realities which are not palatable to him, he is reasoning from an incomplete and corrupt base when he tries to figure out what to do to help others.

For instance, O'Neill pretends to like the outdoors, because that's the "correct" attitude. The truth is that he hates the outdoors, because of his allergies and asthma. If he acknowledged this, he would have let DiMartino and Daria take the kids to play outside at the camp, and focused on useful things he could do indoors.

But, because he couldn't face up to his own limitations, he instead pretended to himself that _everyone_ could and should have fun indoors, and hence failed to help the kids at all.

When O'Neill saw that Daria was effectively communicating with Link, he should have just stayed in the background and let Daria handle the situation. Instead, he (perhaps out of unacknowledged jealousy) stepped forward, delivered his pat speech, and made matters worse.

Yes, I'd try to get him enthusiastic about something unimportant and then shunt him off into doing it, so that the rest of us could get the real work done. :)

On 28 Jun 2001 20:42:41 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

F r e a k i n ' s p o i l e r - s p a c e - f o r - f r e a k i n ' I I F Y *

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration; despite his allergies, he participated in the hike in "Antisocial Climbers" and the paintball excursion. I don't think he personally hates the outdoors; I think he's panicked at the possibility of accidentally bringing harm to grade-schoolers. He *definitely* shouldn't be allowed to influence grade-schoolers.

Mr. O'Neill doesn't strike me as the type to have a problem with unacknowledged jealousy. I think his true problem is hopeless immaturity; he launches into things with the kind of demented enthusiasm and emotional fragility I associate with four-year-olds. He's not enough of an adult to feel jealousy, in my opinion.

Well, despite his innumerable flaws, he does encourage his students to do better because he believes they can (see "Quinn the Brain"), which puts him a little ahead of Mr. DeMartino and Ms. Barch. He shows some willingness to work with Daria (e.g., in "Write Where it Hurts.") And he gave Sandi's 'Dracula' paper an F, so he has *some* standards. ^_^

(I have to admit, I also love the end of "The 'F' Word" - the idea of Mr. O'Neill chaperoning the Fashion Club cracks me up. It's the ultimate punishment for both him and them!)

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

--- Space Ghost: Have you seen that show, Jon? Jon Benjamin: The Dr. Katz show, that's the show you're talking about? Space Ghost: No, not that show, Jon. The show I'm talking about has skeletal dogs.

In article , [email] (David) wrote:

O'Neill mask is "I'm a sweet sensitive guy overflowing with love and benevolence for everyone," but in fact, he's a controlling manipulative inconsiderate boor. Consider in "Story of D" where he gets nosy with Daria at the Post Office and then blabs all over the school about the story she's submitted, when she obviously was self-conscious about people knowing that.That's O'Neill's real nature right there. The root of the problem is, O'Neill isn't aware of this aspect of himself, which is parallel to his inability to perceive how inept are his "attempts to help others."

I'm not fond of O'Neill at all. He can be funny at times, but he's an asshole and I find him detestible. Link's a bright kid. He nailed that guy. O'Neill isn't a more important character in the show because he's such an utter jerk. Somebody on this NG observed that too much O'Neill ruins at episode, and they're right.

Steve Cross

On 28 Jun 2001 13:32:05 -0700, [email] (David) wrote:

F r e a k i n ' s p o i l e r - s p a c e - f o r - f r e a k i n ' 5 1 3

I hope you're not including Mrs. Bennett in the group of "dangerous educators." I dig Mrs. Bennett. (All right, so she reminds me of a teacher I had a hopeless crush on. Still, I'd say she's about the best-adjusted person at Lawndale.)

That's true enough. I'd still rather be in a class with him than Ms. Barch, though. ("Not the closet!")

That's why I thought he actually showed a little progress in "Boxing Daria"; he showed some concern for Daria *as* Daria, rather than his notion of what she *should* be. And she did end up leading the tour...

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

--- Space Ghost: Have you seen that show, Jon? Jon Benjamin: The Dr. Katz show, that's the show you're talking about? Space Ghost: No, not that show, Jon. The show I'm talking about has skeletal dogs.

Mark Steese said:

Mrs. Bennett is a nice lady. She is just a horribly bad economics teacher. :)

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in news:[email], on the date of 29 Jun 2001:

[snippage]

She helped Brittany get a new car at half price, didn't she? ^_^

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus Who'd rather have Mrs. Bennett as a teacher than Ms. Barch *any* day

That's probably pretty close to the truth. Most of the show's major adult characters (which includes Trent) appear to be, in some way or another, an exageration of one of Daria's character flaws. DeMartino is her frustration at being surounded by people she considers idiots. Barch is her bitterness as the people who've made her unhappy.

In one way, O'Neil comes across as being Daria's opposite. She reserves her caring for the people she truly does care about (her family, Jane, Tom, to some degree Jodie), and so when she does do something to help them, it's deep and meaningful. But O'Neil tries to help everyone equally, and as a result, his attempts to help are shallow and meaningless.

On the other end, O'Neil may also represent the way Daria lets her distain for the things she considers "shallow" or "silly" to influence her behavior. The biggest example of this is Daria not wanting to wear contacts because she thinks that's what shallow vain people do. It often appears that the person O'Neil only really cares about helping is himself. He wants to feel good about himself, so he does the things that he thinks a good person would in order to convince himself that he is a good and worthwhile person. However, he has no instinct for it, and he probably does get all of his ideas for how to help people out of books and seminars. He won't let the kids go out and have fun because that's not what the book says is good for them, and if he doesn't do what the book says then he's not being a good councilor and that means he's not being a good person.

Daria walks a fine between proactively defining herself ("I do this because /this/ is who I am and what /I/ want to do") and reactively letting others define who she is ("I won't do that because /that/ is what those people do"). O'Neil is a warning of what happens if she becomes completely dependent upon basing her actions on doing the oposite of what the people she doesn't like are doing ("The shallow people are supporting this, so it must be bad and I must stand against it").

BA said:

That's a very good point.

some

O'Neil is an example of the inherent insincerity of weakness -- he demonstrates that the wishy-washy fails in its attempt to be Good, because it lacks moral strength, and hence integrity. Daria despises him because she, in general, has and greatly values such strength and integrity.

The

That's true.

Though notice, in the end she realized what she was doing. She still avoided wearing the contacts -- but then, she's _used_ to glasses.

must

Very good point there.

It's probably a good thing for Daria, then, that she met Jane. Because Jane tends to deflate her pretensions.

BA wrote:

What character flaw does Daria have that Trent exaggerates?

And that's why Daria doesn't have a great deal of respect for Mr. O'Neill -- he doesn't realize the right way to go around helping others, and that he can't help everybody equally.

Well, Daria learned in "Through a Lens Darkly" that even mature people care about their appearance, and she finally realized that caring about her appearance wasn't all bad. She ultimately decided to keep her glasses not because she didn't want to be shallow and vain, but because she was used to them and because it was a part of her.

As for Mr. O'Neill, you're right on the money there -- he believes feeling good is the most important thing, so he does the things that he thinks good people would do. The problem is he relies too much on other sources like books and seminars. So he won't let the kids go out and have fun (which I'd most definitely do if I was a counselor and if the kids wanted to do so; however, I'd watch out for them or if I couldn't do so, I'd have someone watch them for me); instead, he chooses to keep them inside doing * boring * tasks!

I'd agree -- he and other adults are warnings of what might happen if her character flaws completely dominated her. Hopefully, these flaws won't do so.

Belle Book

Well, Daria can be quite lazy. In IIFY she slept til one o'clock in the afternoon. In "Mart of Darkness" she was reluctant to break momentum in her "sitting-on-her-ass" project.

That being said, I'm skeptical of the "all adults in the series illustrate
Daria's flaws" idea.  It works out if everything is interpreted loosely enough,
but then again any theory might work out if interpreted loosely enough - for
example -  Let's say all the teens in the show illustrate Jake's flaws:
Jodie's sensitivity to apparent racism mirrors Jake's hypersensitivy to many
things (critiscism of his cooking, e.g.), Kevin's horniness mirrors Jake's
inability to consistently connect with Helen on a non-physical level.  Jane's
artsiness mirrors Jake's desire to be creative (the song he wrote in "The Story
of D", or his presentation for the dot-com company).   Stacy's insecurity
(largely due to a critical mother) mirrors Jake's insecurity (due to a critical
father).   Tiffany's self-absorption mirrors Jake's obliviousness to much going
on around him (e.g., not realizing Daria had a boyfriend after several weeks in
IIFY).

M Man

I said most, not all. If you want to be skeptical of something, be sure of what you're being skeptical of.

[snip]

You're attempt fails because you overlooked a key point.

The adults that echo Daria's flaws each do so with their most primary attributes. Li's fanaticism, Barch's bitterness, Demartino's rage, O'Neil's faux-sensitivity, Trent's slackerness. For each of these characters, that's the key trait each is built around and they haven't been developed much beyond that. (Jodie's key trait is her hyperinvolvement; Kevin's is his stupidity.)

Helen and Jake are, as necessitated by being her parents who appear in almost every episode, are much better developed characters. As such, they echo multiple flaws. Helen's isolation from her family because of work was echoed by Daria's isolation from her family because of her antisocial behavior. Over the past 5 seasons, the two of them have not only grown closer to each other, but to the rest of their family as well. Daria also shares Helen's tendency to assume the worst about something and then panic ("Daria had Tom in her room all night? Oh my God, they're having sex!" "I stood Tom up so I'm sure he's going to want to break up with me."). Jake's eternal bitterness towards the father he'll never be able to confront is a warning to Daria about what might happen if she waits too long to tell her father how she really feels about him. Jake's desire to have more of Helen's attention and his bitterness from feeling he plays second fiddle to her job are echoed by Daria's insistence that she be the sole focus of Jane's attention and he horrible reaction when she dates boys or finds a new hobby. Both of them echo (and foreshadow) Daria's difficulty communicating her feelings to those she cares about (and as their ability to do this has improved since "Psycho Therapy", so has Daria's ability to do this during the past season). (Jane also appears in every episode and so can't be boiled down into something as simplistic as "artiness".)

[The members of the Fashion Club are simply embodiments of Quinn's major character traits taken to extremes. Sandi is her competitiveness; Stacy is her insecurity; Tiffany is her self-absorption. Note that as Quinn has gained self confidence this last season, so has Stacy.]

This is, of course, just a theory. Only the show's writers would actually know.

Actually, I attempted to get you to clarify your theory by playing devil's advocate, and succeeded very well. You've made it much clearer and more convincing now.

I was being skeptical, not dismissive. It's actually an intriguing theory. Quite fascinating if true. But it's worth trying to poke holes in it before accepting it.

Since Michelle Klein-Hass has contact with Glen Eichler, I wonder is she could run this by him .....

M Man

Belle Book said:

Apathy.

Right. Either DiMartino or Daria would have gladly watched the kids outside -- they were being bored to tears sitting inside the camp buildings.

The one "Fizz Ed" dealt with: her willingness to complain about the things she doesn't like while being unwilling to actually get involved with trying to do something about it ("I guess you really don't care then, do you."). You see this in "Arts and Crass" as well, where Daria wants to give up before even trying something as simple as telling her mother what happened (destroying the poster is entirely Jane's idea).

Trent -- all of Mystic Spiral, really -- talks a lot about being a rock star, but is unwilling to put the effort into it. Trent sleeps for 6 hours then claims he's been practicing just because he was holding his guitar. He's also constantly late for (and possibly even missing from) band practice. They take several weeks off because of an event that most bands would've laughed about and some would've turned into a song.

Talk - Action = Zero. If Daria ever wants the world to start living up to her standards, she's going to have to make some sort of effort to push it along.

BA wrote:

Looks like M Man, Jordan S. Bassior, and BA all answered my question -- Daria has a minor flaw of laziness/apathy, and that happens to be Trent's dominant trait.

Belle Book

Fong Chih wrote in message news:9h9ars$rsv$[email]...

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It's amazing what "Waiting for Godot" can do to a perfectly good mind. I swear I was normal before that book. Some more nuggets of supposed symbolism.

First of all, the box. It could serve as a symbolism of what Daria's reaction to the world is. As a child, she evidently used it as a play house and would hide in it to read. It had a light source, but the windows were drawn in crayon (not cut out) and she closed the "doors" making her completely shut out to the outside world. The crayon drawings on the outside are crude and child-like, so it was probably Daria that drew it. This could serve to imply that the entire "box" around Daria was of her creation, something that she willingly chose.

Also, another interesting thing was her room as a child. It was filled with the trappings of childhood; toys, crayons, a pretend house, and a clown light-switch which they have a close-up of. It's an interesting juxtaposition, the seriousness of the Daria we know today, with the whimsical child-like quality of her room. It's hard to imagine what she WAS like as a child, and how much of a child she actually was. As Helen said "Talking to you [Daira] was like talking to a miniature adult." In all the references to Daria as a child up till this point, she always seemed exactly the same as she is now. The only time she ever showed the vulnerability fo a child was the scene when her parents were fighting. One wonders how Daria as a child maneged to reconcile her child-like nature with her great intelligence. Perhaps she never really had a childhood.

"Fong Chih" wrote in message news:9h9ars$rsv$[email]...

tour

Sort of A, B, and C.

Look, the whole point of the episode was that Daria finally realized that her self-imposed alienation was not only self-destructive, but also selfish, and hurtful to those around her. Leading the freshman tour, despite her misgivings, was a deliberate and mature choice to break a pattern of behavior she could no longer intellectually defend.

It was a very grow-upful moment, actually.

This part of the message is your spoiler protection.

But if you don't want to find out what has been happening in Daria's world, why are you reading the messages in this newsgroup at all?

One thing really bothered me about this episode: Daria's voice. It's the same emotionless monotone she has used all through the series.

In the past it struck me as the voice of a person who was bored stiff because she was trapped in an environment defined and run by fools, and she was too smart to enjoy interacting with most of the people around her. That seemed cool. I could imagine wanting to be that way myself when I was in high school, if only I had been aware enough to realize how bad things were.

But this season I've seen her using essentially the same voice with Tom, who is not an idiot or a fool, and presumably does not bore her. And this week I saw her using it through a series of experiences that should have had a profound emotional impact on her.

In this context, her voice strikes me as that of a person who is desperately trying to maintain the feeling that she is in control; that nothing can touch her; not recovered childhood trauma; not a near-fatal highway accident; not Tom; not anything. This isn't cool. This is the behavior of a person who's afraid of being alive.

I sure hope Daria's delivery loosens up by the end of the wrapup movie. If it doesn't, I'll be left very disappointed.

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

Jonathan Sachs wrote in message ...

Well, I've read the reason some women have "little girl" voices is they were sexually abused at a young age and their voice stops evolving at the age the abuse took place. Not that I'm an expert on the voice or anything...(but I did have a wonderful teacher when I was in college). But I think that sort of thing might be a habit that's hard-wired into us. I've lived in the South for two years, but haven't started talking in a southern accent...although I will say "y'all" occasionally.

I sure hope Daria's delivery loosens up by the end of the wrapup

Depends how many years are covered in the movie. BTW, did Daria's voice change in her "future story" in Write Where It Hurts?

Joe

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This has been hinted at as far back as season 2 (you can see it in season 1 as well but it doesn't become clear until later). It's most apparent when you compair Daria's behavior with Jane's. Jane wants to experience the highs of life. She's also willing to accept that there are lows in life. To her, the chance of those highs are worth the risk of the lows. She's willing to try new things (new forms and styles of art, the track team, looking different, retro, talking to new people, dating boys) simply to see if she likes them, knowing full well that she may not like it, may get tired of it, or face rejection. But she may find something (or someone) she truly loves, so it makes taking the chance worth it. After all, if JANE hadn't taken the chance of talking to Daria during the self-esteem workshop, then she would've missed out on a really great and important friendship.

In contrast, Daria is so afraid of failure and rejection ("The kids all call me egghead.") that she's unwilling to risk that low just to try for the joy of success and acceptance. Her fear of Trent laughing that the silly little girl who's deluded enough to think he might be interested in her prevents her from ever telling Trent she thinks he's cute. As the same time, her fear that if he sees the "real Daria" he'll be repulsed and driven away causes her to bite her tongue around him and not make the same sarcastic comments she would to anyone else who talked like Trent and his friends do. Her fear that Jane might find something or someone more interesting than her makes her react horridly when ever Jane develops a new interest or tries dating.

This fear extends to romantic relationships too. The only way on earth Daria could've gotten together with Tom is by Jane being his boyfriend first. If Tom had approached Daria instead of Jane at the club, she would've retreated into her shell and driven him away. If Daria hadn't had to accept that this new part of Jane's life wasn't going to go away (and that he wasn't trying to take Jane away from her), she wouldn't have realized that Tom was someone she considered interesting who wasn't going to reject her for who she was. But she's still afraid that if she bares her soul to him, he might laugh at her or reject her. So conflicts happen from time to time.

BA said:

the

Daria

One theme of the show has been the contrast between Daria and Jane's appproaches, and the way in which Daria and Jane balance each other out. Daria, without Jane egging her on to be more sociable, would probably have remained lonely -- she never would have met _either_ Trent or Tom, for one thing. Jane, without Daria providing a moral anchor, might well have gotten into _real_ trouble (drugs, promiscuity, whatever). They've each been very good for the other.

me

And that's sad, because Trent really _did_ like her. And still does, to some extent.

Though of course, if that had happened, she either would not have gotten involved with Tom, or that would have _really_ destroyed her friendship with Jane.

I've noticed that.

Trent violates many of Daria's concepts of how people should behave (indeed, that was what caused her to finally lose her crush on him in Lane MIserables and Jane's Addition). But on the other hand, Trent has consistently been nice to, and accepting of, Daria.

This prevents Daria from being as critical toward him as she would otherwise be, and it represents one of the first obvious cracks in Daria's theory that moral integrity consists of moralistic condemnations of the flawed. (Another is Jane herself, who Daria has generally been more tolerant of than she is of most people; but Jane's not as obviously flawed from Daria's POV as Trent is).

Yep. And that's when we see Daria at her _most_ childish.

Quite possibly by senselessly insulting him.

Jonathan Sachs wrote in message news:[email]...

The thing is: at the end of season 5 she has barely *now* come to realize what all those things meant. Until IICY, and I predict *including* IICY, we're to understand that she will now *begin* to open up.

Anyway most people do not undergo sudden transfigurations even after life-changing incidents -- it takes them some time to assimilate it all and integrate it with the way they were before. But even so why *would* her speech pattern change noticeably over the very short period a Daria season represents (one schoolyear/semester?) after that being the way she has spoken for an entire lifetime? Besides I know emotionally healthy people who go around in absolute deadpan mode -- it's their "thing," their "signature."

I most definitely hope her development into a well-rounded huan does NOT involve adopting what *others* decree to be the "normal" demeanor. Ideally, the new, mature, more open Daria is willing to share her feelings and tolerant of others, but she still won't "waste her millon-dollar smile on a $10K interview."

After a transformational experience there has to be a significant, characteristic part of the old self left around -- otherwise she would have been a straw woman all along and THAT would make many of us feel cheated.

I'll rephrase the idea I was trying to express.

In "Boxing Daria," Daria was in the MIDDLE of a transforming experience, or rather, several at once. For her not to show an increased level of emotion in her behavior -- including her speech -- was downright weird.

That would be true even if she reverted to her deadpan manner after the experiences were over, and took more time to process them and integrate them into her normal behavior.

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

Jonathan Sachs said:

But I don't think she _knows_ how to project any emotion other than anger, really. Notice that she's mumbled and been visibly shy any time she's been in a situation where she has to project affection or love.

She's never _learned_ how to _display_ positive affect. It doesn't mean that she doesn't _feel_ it, though.

Jonathan Sachs wrote in message ...

Oh, she was showing an increased level of emotion all right -- sharper mood swings in her conversations with Tom, regression to childhood in the box, getting in the car and driving off, paralyzed wiht fear after the highway near-miss, the running hug...

She's undergoing a *scary* emotional experience, where the assumptions upon which she built her defenses are being blown away. Can we blame her if she holds on to *something* to avoid freaking out altogether? Would it really be healthier to just let go completely? "Letting yourself be vulnerable" is highly touted as a Good Thing but it runs counter to all instinct for self-preservation.

And as Jordan says, she may not know how *else* to express how she feels; expressiveness in action and patterns of speech is *learned* behavior and 12 years of suppression can leave you rusty. The way her breakdown is portrayed, as something fundamentally inward, seemed to me more in character; I would have found it cheap to have a conventional emotional outburst.

C

"Cheo" wrote:

I would not characterize it as a "breakdown," but as a "breakup," the the sense of ice breaking up in the spring.

I agree that an "emotional outburst" would be out of character. The thing I miss is a slight, overall hightening of affect: not just when she is dealing with a multi-car pileup and its immediate aftermath, but throughout the later part of the experience.

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

Jonathan Sachs said:

She shook in fear afterwards, and then she _hugged_ Jane.

What do you want Daria to do, exactly?

Goldfinger: No, Miss Morgendorpher, I expect you to DANCE!

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

I wanted to see "a slight, overall hrightening of affect: not just when she is dealing with a multi-car pileup and its immediate aftermath, but throughout the later part of the experience." I don't know how I could be clearer than that without rewriting the script.

Send email to jsachs177 at earthlink dot net.

I think part of the idea of that scene was that she calmed down quickly once in contact with Jane. After all, Daria was not hurt and the car was not damaged - soon enough she's going to feel relieved, not traumatized. (I speak from personal experience.)

M Man

In article , MMan37x wrote:

I wonder if Jane brought a pair of clean underware for Daria. As Bill Cosby once said, "If you're in an accident, you WILL soil your underware. Because first you say it, then you do it."

Chris Mack said:

Depends -- if you keep your cool _when it's happening_, you're unlikely to have a fear-induced excretion afterwards. It all basically depends on how scared you get, and how your adrenal system is hooked up.

In article , Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

Pfft. I am hardly the bravest guy in the world, and I've been in several accidents and not once had to buy clean underwear as a result. Sometimes Cosby is an idiot.

Mikel Midnight said:

It's a matter of personal biology. Some people are born with adrenal systems that operate in such a manner that they don't actually get scared _during_ a sudden dangerous situation, but only when the crisis is past. Others are frozen in terror. And some spontaneously evacuate.

Spontaneous evacuation can have survival value -- a burst bladder is fatal in the wild, and the tighter one's gut the more likely one is to rupture it, which is also fatal.

... or a comedian.

______

aklion

M Man

On Mon, 02 Jul 2001 06:44:49 -0700, Mikel Midnight wrote:

No, Cosby is a *comedian*. You ever heard his "Having a Good Time" sketch? I swear he sounds drunk off his ass while he's doing that bit.

On Tue, 03 Jul 2001 19:12:37 GMT, [email] (Daryl Sawyer) wrote:

"I say to people, 'So tell me: what is it about cocaine that makes it so wonderful?' They say, 'Well... it intensifies your personality.' And I say, 'Yes, but what if you're an asshole?'"

His whole "Himself" video is a classic, IMHO. It's vintage Cosby, before "The Cosby Show" turned him into a sanctimonious bore.

Invid Fan wrote in message news:...

I've been in 3 different accidents within a 30-day perion back in 1998 (2 of them within 4 days of each other)... In two of those accidents, a total of 4 cars were totaled, including those that I drove. Never wore seatbelts, always got off without a scratch and NEVER did I soil my undies. I guess Cosby was either sarcastic, or didn't know better. However, I *was* close to soiling them when I got my new insurance bill :-) ($5500 per year, no less... feels like highway robbery!)

MW

On 2 Jul 2001 07:24:48 -0700, [email] (Mike Wilson) wrote:

I'd guess the former, combined with the fact that _he was simply making a joke_. :-) If everything he said in "Bill Cosby: Himself" was absolutely true, then you'd have to believe that your bottom lip actually drops onto the floor after the dentist gives you novacaine(sp?), and that his wife's face actually splits down the middle and fire shoots out of her eyes (to burn his stomach) when she's "having a conniption."

Then again, I've seen my girlfriend on those rare occasions when she's on a tear about something, so I guess I'd be more inclined to believe the latter...

Now *that* would do it. Nothing quite comes close to causing one to drop a load in one's shorts than a bill from an insurance company... except maybe for a "notification of audit" from the IRS.

In article , [email] says...

I suspect the writers did what they wanted. Being in a serious accident is not something you can be ready for emotionally. It comes by surprise, it threatens your life, and it's not kidding. You are left emotionally shaken. If you're a bright person like Daria, the accident will leave you thinking about life and death and how fragile and temporary you are.

Daria expresses what psychologists would call, "low affect." This means she doesn't vary her expressive emotional response very much. Her voice is fairly flat. She doesn't show tears very often, or yell. A slight smile substitutes for a guffaw. Having Daria actually show emotion toward Jane is a way to honor the reality and importance of the accident she was in.

An accident is also a natural way to have Daria think about life, death, herself, and her future -- all similar to the thoughts that Graduation brings on, and she is also about to graduate.

L&R

In article , Love and Rockets wrote:

TIFFANY: There? See. I'm---not---stoopid. I just----express---low affect.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross wrote:

:-) One big difference -- Daria's very intelligent, and Tiffany -- we know Tiffany's intelligence.

Belle Book

In article , [email] says...