Coincedence?

Just watched the most recent episode of South Park. Big deal, huh? Except it was a musical style episode, hmmm.... wonder where they got the idea for a musical ep. Being bored the way I am, and seeing very little activity here today I will compare this to the Daria musical ep:

Both featured new songs sung by the castmembers in each show. (possible exception, "The Driedle (sp?) song in the SP ep.)

Both eps seem out of character by having the cast sing.

Alright that's not much, but here is something to think about:

How long does it take to produce a standard half-hour animated show? Around 9-10 months.

When did "Daria!" air? About 9 and 1/2 months ago.

My point(yes I have one): Some of us here agree that SP is in the decline stage, did their writers see that too and copy the idea for a musical ep. from one of it's main cable competitors from last year, thinking it a great idea, or is it all just a coincedence and I should shut up about it? Because IMO, the Daria musical ep was a good ep, and the SP ep was probably one of its few bright spots this season while most of the rest of the season for SP was so-so at best.

At least one good idea they(SP) had was too use this ep as a promo for a new SP CD, using some songs from that ep. and others. If MTV would only do that for Daria in some form, but alas, judging from them putting cheap crap on the two videos instead of the original music, and the cost of getting the rights to use the original songs in a CD compilation, we'll probably never see it and thats a damn shame. Oh well...

Only 11-12 more weeks to go until Season 4 starts! <sighs>

Still bored, hoping to start some new activity around here,

A.J.

In article , [email] wrote:

Just hope they never make a Daria clip show...

Probably just a coincidence. But don't think about it too hard, that way madness lies. "I'm ON to You!"

"Bear" wrote in message news:828bnd$lu$[email]...

got

Just hope they never make an "amnesia" show. I've always considered the amnesia plot to be the final sign that the writers are completely out of ideas. The demise of the show will shortly follow.

However a parody of the amnesia plot might be fun.

On Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:52:57 -0500, "R. K. Henry" wrote:

Amnesia plot? Which shows did have an amnesia plot? At the moment I can only think of this one ALF episode where they used amnesia to motivate all those flashbacks. Maybe I'm suffering from amnesia myself :-) Could you help me remember. MSB

Lois and Clark: the New Adventures of Superman had a big amnesia thing, write about when they were losing steam Dagny

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

"MSB" wrote in message news:[email]...

the

of

I first observed this phenomenon in the Star Trek: Original Series episode The Paradise Syndrome. In this episode, Kirk accidentally triggers an amnesia beam in an alien obelisk and goes native, marrying a native girl and calling himself "Kirok." It took another season for Star Trek but I thought I had identified a basic truth of scriptwriting: Amnesia plot=out of ideas. If they ever use it on Daria I'd only accept it as parody if Daria yells, "I...Am...Darok!"

There are several episodes of TV shows in which the amnesia plot has been used. In fact, I disremember the show title, but there was a western in which the entire premise consisted of a character who had lost his memory and was wandering around from adventure to adventure. Even Fred Flintstone has suffered a bout of amnesia. Amnesia must surely be the most abused plot device in all of creative writing, or at least is a semi-finalist.

On Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:10:14 -0500, "R. K. Henry" wrote:

Hey! *I* liked that episode (I liked every episode where Spock did his mind trick, I practically watched ST-TOS just for Spock, there's a reason why he was the only one they kept in the cast after the "the cage" disaster). But I was a little kid back then (back then meaning of course not the time of the original airing of the episode. I think I wasn't born then)

And who's going to do the Vulcan mind thing (what's it called in English?) ? T'Rent ?

MSB

p.s.: Nitpickers please don't tell me that T'Rent is not a correct (male) Vulcan name. I think fanatic Trekkies are as annoying as Beavis and Butthead fetishists.

"MSB" wrote in message news:[email]...

marrying a

accept

I always thought Spock just mind his own Vulcan business.

"So what do you call people in funny outfits who talk about peace and love and stuff?" "Trekkies."

Noting that both Daria, through MTV, and Star Trek, through Paramount, are part of the same giant conglomerate: Viacom.

On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:25:54 GMT, [email] (MSB) wrote:

When Official Trek gives us male Vulcan names like Tuvok (from "Star Trek: Voyager"), I'd say that the concept of a "correct male Vulcan name" has gone flying out the window. :-)

Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
      Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
  http://www.lawndale.net  -OR-  http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/

On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 12:56:35 -0500, Martin J. Pollard wrote:

Repeat after me: VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK! VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK! VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK! VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK! VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK! VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK! VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK! VOYAGER IS NOT STAR TREK!

MSB

Am I to take it that you don't like Voyager: Lost in Space 2

Cya later, Alan

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 08:29:47 -0000, "columbiaan051" wrote:

I don't even know what you're talking about. I just wanted to point out that the only thing Star Trek: Voyager has in common with the other series is the technobabble and that's the least likable part. MSB

Sorry, I meant to say "Star Trek: Voyager: Lost in Space 2. The names, facts, plots and anything else we can think of have been mucked up to protect the guilty." As a stand-alone series, it's alright, but as offical Star Trek, no.

Cya later, Alan

On Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:52:57 -0500, "R. K. Henry" wrote:

I hear the death toll when they do the "so-and-so does something stupid, tries to hide it, lies to friends and family, as the lie becomes more intricate, things get "wacky," until there's the admission of wrong at the end, and everybody lives happily ever after." Full House spent three years doing this plot almost exclusively, or at least that's how I remember it.

Tarvok said:

Well, I can't see Daria or Jane doing this, though it's not beyond the bounds of probability for Quinn.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

On 03 Dec 1999 21:46:26 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

It's been a running-gag since the beginning, starting at the "I'm an only child" line in "Esteemsters."

Paradoxically, it's also been shown that Quinn can't lie to her elders for longer than two minutes.

R. K. Henry wrote:

I'm expecting an "amnesia" show on the Simpsons any day now. Man, that show has fallen from grace. Speaking of which, hope the Daria writers never stoop to gratuitous celebrity cameos.

MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

make GEORYN disappear to reply

"Parece cosa de maligno. Los pianos no estallan por casualidad." --Gabriel Garcia Marquez

N.P.:"Oceans"- P e n t w a t e r / O u t O f T h e A b y s s

On 04 Dec 1999 10:43:08 GMT, [email] (Barbarossa The Pirate) wrote:

They have finally started airing a new season (I don't know the number) after rerunnig the old ones for years. As long as they have lines like the following (quoted from memory and translated from German, so pretty inaccurate) which is from the episode where Homer and Flanders make a Las Vegas trip, I will still love the series:

Flanders - But how do you silence that little voice that calls you to reason.

Homer - You mean Lisa?

LOL!!

And the end of the Homer as trucker episode made me also LOL.

I'm not going to drive a train full of napalm to Springfield!

MSB

i think i know the one you mean... is that the episode where they end up married to those two tarts?

my boyfriend made napalm in his back garden when he was a teenager. lol.

On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 17:55:53 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:

yup.

What? You can produce that stuff at home? And what did he do with it? Burn down the school? MSB

he says it's really easy to make.... there's like 3 things you have to mix together... i can get him to post a recipe if you want. ;)

not sure..... will have to ask. him and a chemically minded friend did once almost kill said friend's younger brother with a home-made rocket.... and they on one occasion disbanded a maths lesson by pouring a tiny amount of some really nasty smelling stuff into a desk. no idea what they did with the napalm though. my boyfriend's friend was apparently a highly accomplished chemical thief.

I think it's basically jellified petrol, so you could probably just mix gelatine and petrol together, something like that. The insidious thing about it is that it sticks to things, so if you get napalmed then you are guaranteed to die horribly. I think they banned it's use against people in wars, though the Americans used it to burn down jungles in Vietnam or something.

-Shez.

i think you need detergent or something, petrol and an emulsifying agent. something like that.

i remember when i was about 7 being shown a picture of some vietnamese girl who'd been burnt terribly by the stuff and being quite horrified.

On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 16:36:48 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:

Have you seen the Hiroshima victim pictures and read what witnesses said about the bombing. Compared to that, Napalm is just cheese-burn. MSB

i have read about hiroshima but i've not seen any pictures, which is fortunate for me if the witnesses' reports are anything to go by (which they obviously are).

what is cheese burn??

ash.

i think that's like, when you're eating hot pizza and the melty cheese sticks on you.

On Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:04:50 +1000, "Ash" wrote:

[email] (MSB) wrote:

Heh-- goon one, MSB.

rich.

Helen: Bureaucracy is the price we pay for impartiality.

Jake: Jefferson!

Helen: Stalin.

In article ,

the

of

that

never

Yes, it's so sad. It's gone from social satire to "Stupid Homer's Zany Misadventures". It makes a good case for my theory that TV sitcoms should be obligatoraly euthanised after seven seasons. (Daria, having seasons only half as long as most, would be an exception, of course.)

"Tice Rust" wrote in message news:82cdl1$n30$[email]...

they

out

Man,

writers

No, TV programs should be evaluated by merit. That's how Daria has risen to it's current pinnacle, that's how it'll stay there. You do good work, people watch your show. You do bad work and the networks pull it when they realize no one is watching.

I've always noticed this though: that TV writers tend to run out of ideas. I guess they can't help it. I've seen 'em come and I've seen 'em go, it always works the same way: A new show, new characters, new situations, new stories, then after the writers have mined out all the original cache of ideas that went with the show creation they start improvising. Then they start to get desperate. When that happens we can all tell. I suppose there must not be any more forlorn feeling than to be facing a keyboard and have absolutely nothing come to mind to write--unless it's accompanied by the realization that you also have a deadline. When that initial joy of having ideas just brimming over wanes and you're reduced to just banging something out to meet the deadline you might as well just admit defeat.

How far can you go with a high-school character? Who knows? However, I'll note that since so many of us are long past high school and still identify with the character, Daria shouldn't be restricted to being considered a high school character. She's like us. In that case it seems impossible that a perceptive Daria writer could ever run out of ideas. In any case, if the writers are amenable, I'm sure we'd all be willing to contribute ideas to keep the show going. Scott Adams says he gets lots of ideas for Dilbert from the readers.

On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 01:03:31 GMT, Tice Rust wrote:

I'm thinking Daria should run through to her graduation. Then, if that cartooniverse continues to exist, it should be through a spin-off, not some insane attempt to keep the show the same. (College is _not_ the same). Even if Daria is still a major, or even the main, character, they should at lest rename it.

How about the College Football Adventures of Kevin? ;p

Tarvok wrote in message news:[email]...

I have a different view about the name. I agree that attempts to keep the show the same would be, ahem, less than wise, but I can't see any compelling reason not to keep the name if Daria is the main character. There's plenty of examples in literature of a book following an eponymous character through many stages of life -- Dickens alone has a basketload, many of which, IIRC, were first published as serials. Why not a cartoon?

ISTM the decision to age Daria as the series progresses may save _Daria_ from the fate which people report has befallen _The Simpsons_ (the BBC are still showing the earlier series so I can't judge for myself). In college life, and later in working life, there'll still be crises for Daria to work through, and shallowness and venality for the Irony Maiden to illuminate, but different crises, and differently experienced shallowness and venality. Continued exploration of high school life might have got repetitive.

There would be radical breaks between series, of course. And unless the plot were contrived to the point of artifice, we'd meet new characters as Daria goes to college, gets a job, etc. etc. Some existing characters would be lost in each major transition, but others would remain. Daria keeping in regular contact with Kevin & Brittany seems a remote likelihood, but I'm sure she'd visit Mum & Dad now and then as long as they lived (and, incidentally, I'm sure the present _Daria_ team would make a good job of Jake's or Helen's death).

If _Daria_ survives beyond Daria's graduation from LHS, then some people who've got the series firmly categorised as "High School sitcom" will have to take a new perspective; MTV executives among them. We can wonder if MTV would still bankroll the series if _Daria_ is about a twentysomething or thirtysomething Daria Morgendorffer. Do I remember correctly that MTV's target audience expires at the age of 35? If so, then at two series for every plot year that means it *might* interest them for another few years yet.

The dangers of the series going on 'til Daria is 35 are real, of course. Could the quality be kept up that long? Can a creative team that does such a good job of handling teenage life do an equally good job of twentysomething life? If not, would the next team produce the same quality? Might _Daria_ become an animated clone of _Friends_ once Daria leaves college?

Martin.

"Martin Sylvester" wrote:

Well, you raise a good point, but unfortunately, economics are always involved-- would MTV be willing to gamble a few million dollars on pushing an established money-making character into such uncharted territory? Does a college-age Daria lose some of her appeal to advertisers? (I mean, they do help keep her in books.) Let's face it-- advertisers like her and her show because she is a link to the teen market that advertisers drool over. (Hey, ya gotta hook those future customers while they're young!) And then there's always the question of merchandising... Charles M. Schulz made a fortune by keeping his Peanuts characters young for the last 40+ years. Oddly enough, fans like stability, as do merchandisers...

Of course, the most important question is, who would watch the show? Of course the hardcore fans would, but there really aren't that many hardcore viewers-- most are casual viewers. Would it work as a hook for them? Would it alienate the HS-age viewers, who don't know anything about the joys of college, and are more wrapped up in HS questions? These are the sort of questions that would need answers before it could go forward.

"Irony Maiden." Heh, good one, Martin. ;-)

Hey, do you know something about Jake or Helen that I don't??? They looked perfectly healthy to me the last time I saw them! ;-)

MTV's demo does max out at 35, but let's face it-- most of MTV's viewers are in the under 25 demo. I know of very, very few over-25 year-olds who watch it. Especially the ones I know who are married, or who have young children. MTV is geared to the "wild-n-crazy" single folks, and as the demo ages, they have a habit of nesting...

Yes, these are some of the most important questions-- remember that many of the folks on the creative team are probably looking to advance their careers. Would they want to be "stuck" on the same show for 7-10 years? Especially if it's on basic cable? I would hope that they'd stay on for love of the show, but love of the show doesn't put the kids through college, IYKWIM. Susie Lewis already left the show after the end of season 3... talented people are always sought after in Hollywood, and there are a lot of talented folks working on this show. The hope would be that whoever did take the reins would be someone who shared in the vision of the show, otherwise our Worst Nightmare could be realized.... "Chandler honey, I'm home!" (As fans run screaming into the night....)

Great thread, Martin. Lots of food for thought.

rich.

Daria: Sorry, with all of this animation, I thought I was on Nickelodeon for a moment.

Jane: You wish.

Daria: Tell me about it.

Well, college-set programs are likely to still be linked to the teen market, high schoolers find it easy to identify with college students, being pretty much "their generation".

Dagny

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

Dagny Scott wrote in message news:[email]...

market,

pretty

That rings true to me. Don't people in that age band go for products *apparently* aimed at people a few years older than themselves? Sarra, if you're lurking, what's the peak readership for J17? I bet it's not 17 year olds!

There's another factor, too. The distribution curve is changing, and while the teen market will always interest advertisers (hook 'em young, as rich said), it may soon be replaced by the twentysomething market as the market most critical to many companies' survival. ISTM that there's already a the beginnings of a shift discernible in soft drink advertising.

Martin.

paperpusher wrote in message news:[email]...

<chuckle> No, no special knowledge, but Jake's *never* looked perfectly healthy to me. <g>

Very good point, rich. I'd hope that an opportunity to work on a show as good as _Daria_ would attract equally talented people in the early part of their careers, looking to show the industry what they're capable of.

No doubt. That's the _sine qua non_ for the show to maintain its artistic integrity.

You're very kind!

Would this be a fair summary? The policy of aging Daria as the show progresses can help keep the show fresh, steering it away from the rut, but carries a risk as to the show's continued financing.

If it is a fair summary, then I take off my hat to Glenn (& Susie?) for their integrity in adopting the "Two seasons per plot year" policy.

Martin.

In article ,

It's still funny, if only because it's gotten sillier, but you're right, mostly with this season, though. They've rarely gone into the satire realm anymore, occasionally but hardly ever anymore, which is what got itself put on the map, biting social satire. I'll still probably watch it to the day it dies, though, as well as Daria.

Speaking of which, hope the Daria writers never

I'd have to agree on this one. Jake is becoming Homeresque as it is, don't turn Daria into the Simpsons any more than that. Even though I liked the Simpsons, Daria is a completely different show altogether, comedy and intelligence-wise.

A.J.

[email] wrote:

It's a combination promotion for their Christmas album, and a spinoff from this summer's movie. Marc Shaiman, the co-writer of the songs from the movie also co-wrote the songs in this episode.

I can't see this being inspired by "Daria!" I'd be shocked if Trey Parker and Matt Stone would watch such an intelligent show. :-)

On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 22:52:51 -0500, Jeg7777 wrote:

I think you're doing them wrong. It is a different kind, but it is still great satire. And they address very important topics, too. It's just a different way of expression but I still think it's of artistic value unlike most of the other shows (like Friends, Baywatch, Seinfeld,...) MSB

South Park is better than most of the crap on TV, although it seems to have run its course pretty well. The movie was cool though. And Matt and Trey watch good TV: Monty Python!

Dagny

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 05:27:32 GMT, [email] wrote:

Chistmas episode of South Park? Did Kyle sing some song about being a "lonely jew"? Did Cartman do the "Kyle's mom is a big fat bitch" song?

If so, then it's at least 2 years old. Thus, done before Daria's musical.

On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:01:31 GMT, [email] wrote:

Hey!!!! That's not funny!!

Kyle, he who means well The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs

In article , [email] wrote:

Nope. It was the ep that just aired here last Wed. It was another Christmas special, titled "The Mr. Hankey Christmas special" or something like that. The Dreidle song in this ep. was the same one as the first Christmas show, except they added their own lines for Cartman, Stan, and Kyle's parents to sing while Kyle just sung the dreidle song. I just posed this because this ep aired about 9 months after "Daria!" about how long a standard 1/2 hour show takes to be prepared. Coincidence, or is it my over-active mind working too much with little else to think about?:-)

A.J.

Actually, there was just another South Park CD released, something along the lines of "Mr Hankey's Christmas Album". So, the show was probably a tie in with that. Many of the SP fans know how Matt and Trey (the shows creators) are big fans of musicals. So I don't think that the Daria ep was a factor....just a neat coincidence.

Lesley

"Every turkey dies, not every turkey truly lives." - Chef

In article ,

I didn't know they were fans of musicals, hmmmm..... , anyways you still never know the timing seemed too perfect, but there are other factors I've probably never heard of when they decided to do this ep. I'm somewhat of an SP fan as well, so if they did take this idea, they took it from one of the best choices available.

A.J.

In article , [email] wrote:

I've missed a lot of this thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I thought I heard somewhere that it only takes about six weeks to produce an episode of SP (if true, that would put to rest the timing coincidence).

Mike