Are the Landon's abusive to Jodie?

I was wondering, would it be overreacting to say that the way Jodie's parents heap that incredible amount of volunteer duties despite the fact that she is miserable about it, as abusive?

Kenneth Chisholm said:

Perhaps mildly so. They don't mean to be abusive, though, they think of what they're doing as making sure that she works hard now so that she's a success later in life.

Kenneth Chisholm wrote:

I'd say it's a rather mild form of abuse, but it's still abuse. Unfortunately, I doubt they see it as abuse, since they most likely think they're helping Jodie by sometimes heaping "volunteer" duties on her (I think any volunteer duties that aren't related to school are stuff her parents urge her to take). They aren't helping her out by doing that, and if I could, I'd tell them that. Not that I'd necessarily get them to see the light, of course -- apparently it's very easy for people to hear what they want to hear and tune out what they don't want to hear.

Belle Book

I'd say no for several reasons.

For one, the only time they've made Jodie volunteer for things was during the summer. As noted by her New Year's Resolutions in the Daria Database, all of her school year activities are things she signs up for on her own with no prodding from her parents. The reason she does this is because, when she's at home not doing anything, her father apparently feels the need to pester her about things like her grades, her friends, her boyfriend, which colleges she's been thinking about applying to, and so on ("How did you do on that test, honey? Your friends aren't succumbing to any ... bad influences, are they, honey? Jodie, Michael's not ... presuring you to do anything, is he? Hey, Jodie, have you seen this new scholarship they're offering?"). After school activities allow her to get out of the house and do things /she/ wants to do.

Jodie also generally enjoys volunteer work, like the kind of stuff she did over the summer. The problem is that she has become accutely aware of how much it bothers Mack that the two of them spend so little time together (as he notes in his own New Year's Resolutions). This is one of the reasons why she's thrilled that the Ultra Cola money means she doesn't have to spend time with fund-raisers and can instead spend the time with Mack (it also means that the school can afford proper safety equipment for the team so she doesn't have to fear Mack being crippled during every practice and game). Getting out of some or all of her summer volunteer work means getting to spend more of the summer with Mack.

While Jodie's father is rather paternalistic and perhaps even a little smothering (Helen would probably be the same way with Daria if it weren't for Jake's influence), he's not abusive.

Note the fact that, upon learning that Grove Hills's intensive learning program leads to extreme burn out (read, emotional breakdown) in some students, Jodie's parents are much less enthusiastic about the idea of her transfering there.

On the other hand, Stacy's mother might be mildly emotionally abusive, but with only Stacy's own impressions to go on and no appearance by the actual character, there's not enough evidence to make that kind of judgment.

========== "The point at which you win a battle is when you've convinced the enemy that he has lost. This can be accomplished through something as simple as constant repetition. For example, you see a commercial on TV ten times a day for a particular brand of cookies. One day at the supermarket, you're overcome by a sudden craving for cookies. Confronted by an array of unknown brands, you choose the one that you saw advertised. They've won ... And you've lost." — Larry Hama ==========

Barmor said:

Incidentally, while her dad overdoes this, it's a good thing that he does it in general. Jodie at least knows that he cares about her.

program

Jodie's

Which shows that they don't totally see her as a vicarious success, but also love her as a daughter.

Stacy's personality and a couple of things she's said imply _mild_ (not severe) abuse.

I suspect that for almost her entire life, Stacy has been made to feel that she's not good enough. Sandi and Ms. Rowe make her feel like she's not smart enough. Just by their presence, Quinn and Tiffany (and probably even Sandi) make her feel like she's not pretty enough. Guys like Bret Strand make her feel like she isn't interesting enough. It's one of the reasons she enjoys being part of the Fashion Club. By being part of such an exclusive clique, she gets to feel like she's better than the girls who aren't members.

But recently, she's started to change a little. In "Fat Like Me", she saw Sandi in a possition of weakness (which has changed the group dynamic) and came to realize just how much the Club depends upon her hard work and effort. And in "Art Burn" some one actually saw her as being /better/ than the other member of the Fashion Club. The result has been a slight increase in her self esteem, which lead to events in "Life In The Past Lane". Hopefully the final movie will build on this a little.

I rather wish we could have seen Chuck and Stacy practicing for the magic act. I'm curious what he's like when he's not doing his Jerry Lewis act, what sort of weirdness catches Stacy's attention when Sandi's not there to smack her wrist ("What do you think that stuff is that looks like vomit?"), and just how much influence he had on Stacy's turning the tables on Sandi.

"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_

BA wrote:

I'd definitely say Mrs. Rowe and Sandi are emotionally abusive to Stacy -- Sandi perhaps more so than Mrs. Rowe, but I don't know for certain -- Sandi's been more prominent than Mrs. Rowe. However, I wouldn't consider Tiffany abusive -- she's too stupid to be abusive; nor would I call Quinn abusive, simply because I don't see any examples of abuse of Stacy on Quinn's part, unless you count sheer thoughtlessness.

I sure hope so.

I'd love to have seen that as well, since that was the thing that made LITPL a big success to me.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

Quinn's attitude towards Stacy has evolved -- in the early eps, Quinn either ignored her or found her creepy (*). In the later seasons, Quinn treats Stacy like a good friend.

(*) And with reason -- if I'd been Quinn the bit where Stacy tried to look exactly like Quinn would have creeped me out too.

We've never seen Stacy's mother at all, and all we know about her is that she has that "look" she gives Stacy at times, and Stacy believes that look indicates that she's doing something "stupid." But, since we've never seen her, it's all theoretical. It could just be Stacy's interpretation of events and her mother has no idea how it makes her daughter feel when she looks at her that way. Or her mom could be as bad as Sandi. There's no way to tell unless we see her.

Sandi is emotionally abusive, mostly owing to her own mother's influence. It's the only way Sandi knows how to interact with people when she's in the possition of percieved strength.

I never claimed they were abusive.

What I did claim was that, through absolutely no fault of their own, the two of them make Stacy feel inferior with there mere presence. In other words, Stacy doesn't feel like she's as pretty as Tiffany and Quinn are.

Stacy envies what she sees as Tiffany's ability to look great in anything she wears (she mentions this twice in season five).

Quinn, meanwhile, is what Stacy sees as the perfection she strives to emulate. Quinn is beautiful, she's smart (even back in the early seasons, because Quinn is able to appear wise about social situations and things the Fashion Club considers important), she's self confident, other girls strive to emulate her and boys hang on her every word. Stacy just feels like she'll never be as good as Quinn is.

(For a while, I've had this idea of trying to write a "What If?" fanfic set around "Of Human Bonding", in which Helen does end up going with Jake on his trip, Daria ends up going bowling with Jane and Tom, leaving Quinn and Stacy alone together. I'm just not sure what would happen yet.)

"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_

BA wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing Stacy's mom, just so I can ascertain if Stacy's mom is as bad as Sandi, or if the mom just doesn't realize the impact of her look on Stacy.

Yes, and it's a pity that Linda Griffin never taught Sandi a better way to interact from a position of perceived strength.

My fault. I think I misinterpreted your remarks about Tiffany & Quinn and thought you thought they were being emotionally abusive. Sorry about that.

Actually, I think Stacy's quite pretty herself, and could be smart if she learned that studying could do wonders for her self-confidence as well as improving her grades. And her self-confidence is improving -- let's just hope it continues to improve during the course of the movie IICY?

Interesting. Hope you figure out what would happen in that type of story.

Belle Book

I wouldn't be suprised if Linda gets it from her own mother (I strongly suspect that the grandmother Sandi refers to in "The Story of D" is from her father's side).

All of them are extremely attractive (as far as cartoon characters go; although I favor Tiffany, mostly because I just have a preference for black hair for some reason). All four of them are also incredibly self-conscious about their looks (Stacy about her shoulders, for example, and Quinn about her pores). Stacy just happens to be the one who's not as good as covering up that fact.

Figuring out what Quinn and Stacy do is easy. It's trying to figure out what Daria and Jane do that's the real pain. Helen and Jake are only slightly easier.

"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_

BA wrote:

Nor would I, for that matter.

Of the four, I think Sandi's the least attractive in terms of looks, but not by much -- I'd never call her ugly. I tend to like East Asians in general, so if Tiffany was only somewhat smarter, I'd favor her too. As it is, I'd put her in a three-way tie with Quinn and Stacy.

Oh. I see. Well, I hope you figure out what Daria and Jane do -- and Helen and Jake, for that matter. I wouldn't mind seeing the story.

Belle Book

Tiffany is actually a supergenius. Her behavior is the result of just being incredibly bored with everything.

And Sandi is really a closet lesbian trying desperately to supress her burning lust for Quinn.

(OK, not really, but it amuses me to think so.)

If "Of Human Bonding" had happened after "Psycho Therapy" Helen and Jake would be easy. As is, I may have to do something ... drastic.

Daria and Jane I'm clueless about. It's too soon for there to be tension from Jane's paranoia about Tom's becoming more interested in Daria and too late for there to be tension about Daria's paranoia about losing Jane because she's got someone else to hang out with now. The options seem to be either start the chain of events leading to DDMD early (with Daria joining Jane, Tom and Tom's theoretical yet never seen friends for the evening) or else finding some excuse for Jane and Tom's plans for the evening to be derailed, leaving Daria and Jane alone.

"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_

Uh, have you been reading Corvus's fanfics? :-)

Someone suggested om this ng a while ago that Jane may have been scheming to set Daria up with a friend of Tom's in that episode.

Interesting idea.

M Man

M Man said:

Well, Jane's _always_ wanted Daria to have a boyfriend (be careful what you wish for) and at that time, it would have made things less awkward between them. Remember, Daria was constantly being the third wheel.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure that would have been the motivation. And, of course, Daria had clearly lost all interest in Trent by this time.

Jane would have to be subtle about it. I don't think Daria would like being "set up".

Interesting fanfic fodder, though I'm sure BA has some other ideas what could happen there.

M Man

Given that a) we've never seen Tom's friends (and he hasn't even mentioned them at all to Daria during season five) and b) this was right after "I Loathe A Parade", in which Jane is puzzling over what led to Daria and Tom spending the parade together without her (by the time of DDMD, this puzzling has evolved into full blown paranoia that Daria has secretly been making out with Tom and even to the point where she's wondering if the only reason Tom started dating her was to get to Daria), it may be that Tom has no friends, and that Jane saying she and Tom were spending the evening with his friends was the first steps toward Jane's paranoia (she's starting to become uncomfortable with the idea of Daria being around her and Tom all the time, so she makes up the story of Tom's friends hoping that Daria's unwillingness to associate with people she doesn't know will keep her from even considering joining them that weekend).

Or maybe not.

(And I think it was more Jane wanted Daria to lightened up a little and act human, rather than wanting her to have a boyfriend or anything.)

"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them, but more often they work in absolute darkness." Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_

BA said:

The two are hardly mutually exclusive. I think the reason why Jane wanted to set Trent up with Daria was that she loved them both and thought it would be cool if they were together.

Barmor said:

Sandi

Stacy's ultimate explosion at Tiffany was one of the best scenes in the whole series :-)

What's also interesting about this is what it showed about Chuck. There's no way that they were _both_ acting like they normally do -- either Chuck was capable of toning it down when a girl actually treated him nicely, or Stacy has a much higher level of tolerance for continual innuendo than she seemed to. Maybe both -- Chuck may have really behaved better than usual, and Stacy may have grasped that for all his come-on's, Chuck's harmless.

Absolutely. (I just re-watched FLM a few days ago.)

I suspect mostly Chuck toned it done. I don't see how they could seriously concentrate and prepare for the magic act if he was going on as usual, even if Stacy managed to bite her tongue.

In the closing of the actual magic show, Stacy cringed noticeably when Chuck "grrr"-ed at her. Maybe she thought she'd seen the last of it.

M Man

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

It sure was! And so was the magic scene in "Life in the Past Lane". Both of them would head my list of best moments of the fifth season, at the very least.

I'd say for the most part, Chuck toned it down, but Stacy may also have come to realize that Chuck is basically all bark and no bite -- though his "grrr" at the end might have caused her to wince a bit, as M Man suggested.

I honestly don't know which is my favorite Stacy scene -- the one where she blows up at Tiffany in FLM, or the magic show in LITPL. I was cheering when she finally showed a backbone and exploded at Tiffany, and I was very pleasantly surprised when I found out her crying during the magic show was an act. As Mike Quinn put it in his Delayed Reaction Review for this episode, "You go girl!"

Belle Book