Is it better to be happily involved with whatever you'd been involved with for years and not worry about whatever else you don't know about (even though you know you know nothing about a whole BOATLOAD of things), or to worry constantly about these boatload of things that you don't know a thing about?
This is what I find myself contemplating tonight, after a few bad private chats and a few good ones. I noticed that the good ones centered around my not having to have a deep knowledge on a myriad of learned subjects, whereas the bad ones were ones which were civil but left me feeling extremely stupid and/or inept.
I won't name names, but I do know that at least one bad chat I had tonight was from someone who brought me down not only because of my lack of a knowledge of what the person was talking about, but also the fact that the person is at least two years younger than I am. These two facts combined to make me feel incredibly inequipped for ANYTHING, really.
And...I guess I kinda ask this because of the way things have seemed to play out in this newsgroup. All of a sudden I realize that you guys are far more able to carry on deep intellectual conversations than I am, and that makes me less enthused about posting here. Because I view my attempts at intellectual debate as being weak at best and because that makes me feel like the dumbest person around here.
So what I was contemplating doing was take a long break from this newsgroup and refuse to communicate privately with anyone who's from this newsgroup unless I privately message them first, so that I wouldn't have to feel this way. Before I do that, though, I'm asking for some REAL opinions here...and no opinions from anyone who can't empathize with what I'm feeling...I don't want to hear advice from someone who doesn't know what it's like to feel this way, thank you very much.
Trying to hold onto the very last bits of confidence she has in dealing further with this newsgroup,
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 00:54:23 -0500, Lady Interference wrote:
This hits too close to home. I can't count the times i've unsubscribed to this newsgroup for exactly the same reason. This NG has the side-effect of making me feel extremely stupid. I'll post a message and then end up having an anxiety attack a few minutes later wondering what the hell made me hit the send button. It's really easy to feel insecure in a group like this. IRC can be even worse, I can make a fool of myself in real-time. I look around at the names of the people who post here and see what they have achieved and what they are capable of and it's a bit overwhelming. I hope when perception (you think you're stupid) meets reality (you're actually quite smart) you'll find the confidence to stay with us. I wish that for myself too and for anyone else who feels the same.
I hope you found something in my post helpful. it's late and I need to sleep of this pounding headache I've had all evening. email me if you don't feel like talking about this in a public forum. I should be a bit more coherent in the morning.
I sat and thought for a while about how to phrase things just so, but then I realised, having never studied English, or philosphy or psychology or any number of other -ologies, that I don't have the faculties for intricate word play, so why bother?
I think I'm a post-intellectual. I know I'm intelligent, but I don't know anything about history, or Nietzsche, or the sociological ramifications of Marxist Liberalism, but that's simply because I haven't read the right books. I'm not likely to either, as Marxist Liberalism sounds boring to me. Pompous intellectual know-it-alls really tick me off.
Stupid analogy: my home PC is a Pentium 233Mhz with 64Mb of memory, but I only use it to play "Eye of the Beholder".
One thing about this group is, no-one punishes ignorance*. Unlike other newsgroups, where flame wars erupt over incorrect spelling, or the dictionary definition of the word "angst". (*Total imbeciles, however, are treated with the contempt they deserve ;P ).
My point, I guess, is: Be happy with what you know. Don't worry about what you don't know. Otherwise you'd spend all your time worrying and not learn anything.
I guess that's me done with my half-assed meddling. Better hit Send before I change my mind.
Hello, I am 141 IQ and use a 600Mhz, with over 130meg of ram. I have studied Marxism, and I work in the intelligence community of Aerospace. Yet I have not the slightest ides what you were saying. Maybe I should have ONE nore rum and coke. Robert [email]
Lady Interference wrote in message news:[email]...
I'd miss you.
I won't say much more than that, since you say you don't want answers to your questions from people who haven't shared the experience of feeling like the most stupid person in a group. Well, I blush at my arrogance, but I don't remember having that experience. I can recall feeling or being the most socially inept in a group, the worst sportsman in a group, the poorest person in a group, the worst singer in a group; to name but a few.
Not advising Diane, but hoping she sticks around, Martin.
You're a smart, nice person and I for one like having you in this newsgroup.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
If the boatload of things you don't know about aren't related to death, judgement, heaven or hell, then they are "vanities". You get to choose which of those you'd like to engage in. So don't worry about the ones you haven't taken an interest in.
Re-watch "Gifted". Remind you of anyone?
For what it's worth, you've undoubtedly got more knowledge than I have on several subjects, and I'm guessing you're about two decades younger.
You're just braver than most. Or at least more outgoing. You'll notice that I don't post a whole lot. That's because, most of the time, the converstion is well beyond my depth of knowledge on any given subject. So, I pick my spots carefully, and fire off the occasional shot. You're braver.
But you would, anyway. You'll find people with greater knowledge (and a worse attitude) anywhere you go. Besides, I know I'd miss you.
Since I'm probably well past expert in feeling this way (and twenty years from now, you probably will be too) and have learned how to get past it...
What's the use of worry? Nobody knows everything. And life is way too short...
This happens to me all the time... My advice, for whatever it's worth, is to chat with people who you find fun and friendly and forget the others...
Do you think the person really meant to make you feel this way? When I talked with you awhile ago, I felt really stupid about computers and related stuff compared to your knowledge on the subjects... I'm amazed at the workload you're taking at school... I think you have a great deal more intelligence then you give yourself credit for...
Definately not...
Of course, if you need a break, then you should take one, I don't know how you manage your schedule as well as you do. I do know how you feel, though. I regret almost every post I make... It is so easy to read something you've posted later and think 'What was I thinking?' or 'What made me say that?' Or even worse, to post something you think was really insightful or compelling and then have no one comment on it...
To sum up, I've never gotten the impression that anyone here thought you weren't the intelligent person that you are. One of the best things about this newsgroup is that it is posting-friendly... Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion without being shut out and mistakes are forgiven and not made a huge deal over. I hope you stick around Diane.
Marie
"Life cannot defeat a writer who is in love with writing - for life itself is a writer's love until death." -Edna Ferber
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 00:54:23 -0500, Lady Interference wrote:
IMO, most of us don't know a whole *boatload* of things. It is virtually impossible for any of us to know everything about everything. The only reason some of us seem more knowledgable than others is because they know more about different things. For example, I sometimes envy those who know a lot about literature and history because I'm not very good in those areas. But I find them coming to me for help whenever they can't solve a very simple computer problem. It's not how much you know, it's what you know.
It's true that it's hard to keep up with someone that seems to know way more than you do. I myself have trouble talking with a friend of mine (who is a child genius - she graduated from high school at 15, took A-levels for 2 years, and is now in her 2nd year of university pursuing a degree in English literature). Whenever we talk, she inevitably brings up a reference to some obscure writer or poet that I have no clue about. She knows more about Descartes than I'll ever *need* to know. I am inevitable awed of course, and I do sometimes feel horribly inadequate. But I find that she herself is clueless about most of the things I take for granted - like knowing how to install programs, and how to download files. I suppose I'll never be able to know that much about Descartes (nor that I care too much about it), and I'll still feel rather inferior next to her, but somehow friendship overcomes that.
Age is such a bad gauge on how much someone should or should not know. I bet you there are people who are ten or twenty years older than you who know less than you do. My boyfriend is substantially older than me, and I can safely say I know more about certain things than he does.
Diane, I *hardly* think you're a dumb person at *all*. By far, you seem to be a highly intelligent young woman, warm, caring and kind. You don't need to be involved in deep intellectual discussions to be smart, you don't need to know about things like Marxist Socialism to be intelligent. Intelligence isn't gauged by how many subjects you've taken in a year, or whether you've got an A in every essay you wrote. You're intelligent because you have good judgement and sound thoughts, because you have a sharp mind that has its own opinions, because you're your own person with your own vast array of knowledge. I may be able to tell you many things about Neil Gaiman, but I wouldn't know a damn thing about Duran Duran or how to make an absolutely *kickass* website. You may not think these things are impressive things to know, but I do. I constantly falter at any discussion about music, I can't handle a discussion about films or movies, and I really don't know all that much about pop culture. You are a smart person Diane, and don't you think any other way. If there's one thing I can't stand is someone who's as intelligent as you are thinks they're dumb.
I know I speak for all of us here at atd when I say we'll all miss you tremendously.
She who hopes her message gets across clearly...
Nicole Lee Also known as LadyKender on IRC and ICQ. The Darianite Revolution at http://members.xoom.com/nlsy/daria.htm Kendermore at http://members.xoom.com/nlsy/
"But I don't want to be in any 'inner circle cabal thing.'" -Hallucinating Elvis Lady to SpaceRanger on atd-
Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313 BB- FCD +DT q fN
I would say that it is better to continue being happily involved.
Don't put yourself down. Just because you feel dumb doesn't make it so. Everyone is bound to feel that way once and a while. I feel like that about some of the discussions here, too, and I would imagine that a lot of us here have encountered subjects in this newsgroup that we know nothing about.
I can't tell you not to take a break and I haven't had the exact doubts about myself that you have. But I have also felt inferior in some aspects of my own existance and I know that the best way to overcome the bad feelings is to try to go right at them and confront them. Running away and hiding may seem like the easy way out but in the end will probably cause more pain (and I do know this from personal experience, let's just say do as I say and not as I do).
Diane, I know you may feel bad right now, but I think most people here would agree that you have shown yourself to be an intelligent indivdual who is full of life and that it is a pleasure to know you. Also, remeber that you can learn from us and, more importantly, we can learn from you.
The bad feelings will pass, they almost always do.
Hey, if you're talking about atd people, there are several teenagers here who could hold their own against anyone of any age. One of the good things about the Net is that people of different ages can mix freely, and you soon find that the much vaunted correlation between age and wisdom has been greatly exaggerated.
Anyone with an IQ of less than 160 will experience times when they feel dumb on atd. Not that IQs mean very much, so I guess you could delete "with an IQ of less than 160" from the above sentence.
OTOH it might also be possible to think of the rough and tumble as a learning experience? On some newsgroups such as alt.magick, baptisms of fire are the norm: here's an extract from one of their FAQs:
REF: josh (responses to 'Why is Josh so hostile??') Oh well. You either learn to walk through the flames, or you get turned into ash and drift away on the wind. Yelling at Josh does no good. He doesn't care. If it makes you feel better, by all means yell away. Just don't expect results. Keep handin' out asbestos jammies to the newbies who get fireballed.
ATD has a reputation for being a civilised forum, but really this just means people are polite when attacking the beliefs of others, and ultimately agree to differ rather than descend into a flamewar.
In your case, if you're postings have been attacked (and I'm aware I'm guilty of this myself) it's because you have an ideology to defend (Christianity). I think many of us see any type of ideology as being a freezing of thought, and react against it. This doesn't mean you should abandon your beliefs, different things work for different people, but maybe its worth viewing disagreements as pointers to things that are worth examining more closely. Sometimes people arrive at the right beliefs for the wrong reasons (ok, talking of right and wrong beliefs is pretty trite, but anyway), with the result that they find themselves unable to defend these beliefs they hold dear, even though they feel sure in their heart that they're right.
Since Daria attracts, amongst others, disaffected intellectuals, ATD is a place where any entrenched belief is likely to come under the searing eye of reason. Only those who have nothing to defend are immune to intellectual attack.
On the mountaintop, Lady Interference spake thusly:
Don't worry about those boatloads of things that you don't know a thing about. It's not possible to know everything, just what you're interested in... by all means, if one of those boatloads of things interests you, then go for it... but we'd all have gone mad by now if we worried much about it.
Welcome to my life. <g> You're not expected to know everything about everything, Diane... so don't worry about it. And there will always be people willing to make you feel silly, don't let them get to you, because I can guarantee that there's at least one subject that you can make THEM feel the same way about.
You just had a bad night, Diane. There's always someone out there who knows more than you... and apparently you met up with too many of them. I remember when I went to smart people camp last summer, and was thouroughly amazed at the number of people who made me feel like a very silly and inexperienced little girl miles and miles out of her depth. This newsgroup makes me feel the same way very, very frequently.
Trust me, you're not the dumbest person around here. That position's taken by either me or someone else, but not you or any of the Smart Type People Who Actually Talk About Stuff, as opposed to me, who just slips an edgewise comment in and goes along on her merry way. Your attempts at intellectual debate are very good, at least much better than any I could make or have in the past.
Diane, please don't do that. We value your presence here, and I know at least I would miss you if you were gone. You have a lot to contribute here, and atd would be very much worse off if you left us. You're a wonderful person, and atd deserves to have you around. Please stay.
-Mindy (Who, by the way, knows exactly how you feel...)
Thair seems two bee a disuhgreeeemant abot this, every won thinkx they arr tha dummest--well yoo arr all rong---IM THE BIGGESS DUMMIE! :-)
But seriously, from reading the replies to Diane's posts the consensus seems to be (and correct me if I'm wrong):
1) Don't worry about what you don't know, but if you want to learn more then go ahead and do so. 2) Everyone feels inferior from time to time, depending on the subject matter. 3) No one wants Diane to leave.
Join the club, my dear. I'm crap at arguing(sp?) too. Even when I know I'm 100% right, I still lose the argument and end up feeling stupid. I hope it helps you to know you're not alone.
Look... when I first started going online... or on newsgroups... I was like 13. I was on alt.music.paul-simon and we'd be discussing a song and I'd think some sort of really obvious thing. I was 13, OK? And these people went on about St. Cecelia and diamond mining and stuff and I was left sort of "huh?"
But now I guess I know history and I know rhetoric and I can make odd claims verging on those of the St. Cecelia and diamond mining. But I can see this side, too. It's not a bunch of happy, successful, brilliant people against one unadvantaged one. Au contraire...
These intellectual discussions ranging from actual issues to mere show-offs are really proof that the truth is far from that. Many people I know from newsgroups deal with a lot of total failures in life. Relationships, careers, etc. The newsgroup was the only place these people could seem charismatic and interesting and successful, when people in "real life" may see them as failures.
And as I look on it I wouldn't have had alt.music.paul-simon any way but how it was... it at least stretched my way of looking at things. A challenge is always good... And when someone yells at me for over-analyzing song lyrics, I'll blame it on them :)
Dagny
http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697
"And the people bowed and prayed to the neon god they made... and the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls and whispered in the sounds of silence" Paul Simon
it's better to be happily involved with whatever you're happy to be involved with. don't start worrying about not knowing something you don't really have any interest in... there's no point. nobody knows that much really.. just what they're interested in. i know very little about anything, myself... i don't even really have any in terests.
two years isn't much.. and there's not necessarily any reason for you to know about what they were talking about. if you'd wanted to know about it, you'd have found out about it already. if you want to know it now, you have the intelligence and probably the opportunity to find out about it now.
you always seemed to do ok to me..
hah, what about my attempts? they have GOT to be more pathetic than yours.
i can empathise very well here, i think... both my parents have PhDs (in statistical mathematics and computer science, and my dad also has a degree in physics, and speaks about 6 different languages), so i spend most of my time in the presence of people more intelligent than myself. my dad has a terrible habit of being incredibly rude whenever i don't know something, as well.
I'm suddenly reminded of "Gifted." Wonder why. :-) Anyway...
If people are rude or otherwise make you feel bad because they don't think you're intelligent enough or deep enough or whatever, to hell with them! They aren't worth wasting your time on.
There are all kinds of topics being discussed here (when new episodes are showing and especially when they're not) that I know little or nothing about, and I'm basically keeping out of most of them--whether it's because I don't know enough about the subject or I'm just not interested, or both. And I have no problem with it, so don't you feel bad about it.
If there's a subject you don't know much about that seems interesting and you think you want to learn more, then learn more. Do some reading. Ask questions. Anyone who is worth knowing will be glad to help you out, and will appreciate any fresh perspective you can throw on the subject as a newcomer.) If not, don't worry about it. It doesn't make you any less intelligent or interesting.
And I would advise you not to cut yourself off from the newsgroup. You never know when a topic of interest to you will pop up.
Rememver..."I am cool, and that is it, and everyone else is full of...full of...full of..." Buy that record (or CD) and play it a few times. Messing up and/or feeling stupid is something we all go through and if anything it's a learning experience. It happened to me about a month ago when I was mouthing off about our school president's inauguration ceremony and someone challenged my statements, making me realize I was hard-pressed to back them up. Of course, the other people in the room helped me out, and the resulting debate taught me a lot more about what goes on at my school than I ever knew. It was briefly embarassing, but I was glad to have gone through it. And anyway, I see no reason why you should leave a.t.d., since you definitely haven't said anything stupid here.
Back to semi-lurking... -- Tice Rust Daria code: A D+ T2 W- Q++ Fn^Fr O+ Oo+Os m++ c++ MV F:111,210,313 BB FCJ -DT- q+ fJ^fD
Diane, this is possibly the worst possible thing I have come across this month. If you leave I swear, so help me Goddess, I will truly and painfully be reduced to tears. I love ya! Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaase don't go! Pleeeeeeeeease! Just remember all those who don't participate in those deep intellectual conversations (In fact take a look at my list and see who doesn't). I'll tell you I have been thoroughly stupified by your intelligence many a time and I look for more of your insight on anything, daria related or not. In fact, I don't even care if this group has a Daria topic or not! I have met some of the most wonderful people in my life, giving me another reason to live pretty much! Diane, you are a vital asset to the humor, intelligence, and friendliness of a.t.d. And if that doesn't move you, remember I *can* track you down. :)
Looks like the overwhelming response to your post is that everyone here respects you, believes that you're a friend, and would be unhappy if you left. It looks to me like there is only one thing to do - stay!
After reading through this thread I have to say something.
I know exactly how you feel.For an example, a few weeks or so back there was a discussion about what books Daria would read. There were so many authors I hadn't heard of before I felt as you do now . If we were meant to know everything about everything, we would be able to use 100% of our brains and our brains would have to be larger than they are now so don't think that.
As for posting something stupid or silly, don't worry, we've all done it, I know I have, at least. You've corrected me before about a thing or two, and you appear to be well versed in many things, music for one.
I usually only try to post on something about some aspect of the show and usually very rarely on an off topic discussion, do a search on me and you'll probably see 80-90% of my posts are about Daria.(A rarity in this group, eh, one who is on topic most of the time:-) Anyway on rare occasions like this, I don't post on something unless I can relate to it. Which is why you'll rarey get involved with the abortion, belief in God, or other hot topic threads. If I do know something about a topic in a thread, I'll try and respond, if not, I usually read it anyway, occasionally I learn something, thats one thing about this ng, you can usually learn something new almost every time you browse the posts here.
I'm almost 24, from what I've read you're around 20, you're probably smarter about many things than I am and vice-versa.
The only thing required here in this ng is a love for, knowledge of, or a desire to know more about Daria, thats all, no need to have a certain IQ or anything, Hell, you could only be as smart as Kevin, and you'd still be welcomed here, and I know you and all of us are a lot smarter than Kevin.
I've thought of leaving the group as well in my 3 months here, but have always decided to stay, because I'd miss some very interesting people and discussions. I hope you'll eventually feel that way about the group as well.
In article , Lady Interference wrote: We all know what Diane wrote and it's been quoted enough and responded to by people far more able in the art of the written language than I will ever hope to be, but here's my two cents, for what it's worth.
<paraphrasing H.E.L.>
My dear sweet young lady,
I don't give a rats ass what you know.
I don't give a rats ass what you don't know.
I do know that your leaving here would diminish the whole community.
People should not feel intimidated by the intelligence of others. You are not stupider because someone else is smarter in some way.
And intelligence is not a unitary quality, anyway. Someone may be smarter than you in some way, and you may be smarter than them in some other way.
Greeting intelligence with fear and jealousy is dead wrong.
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
I'm a big Charmed fan and caught it last night. I really liked how it was pointed out that Phoebe's solution came from her inherent "smarts" and not book smarts gleaned from reading the dictionary.
The wife is a big 'Charmed' fan and I remember the first time I caught it. I was going,"What's this? A one hour WonderBra(tm) ad?". Once I got past the eyecandy it turned into a pretty good show.
Yes, thank you all for supporting Diane in flaming me and Kyle without being brave enough to use our names.
I sure appreciate it.
Dagny
http://parsley-firefly.isCool.net
"And the people bowed and prayed to the neon god they made... and the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls and whispered in the sounds of silence" Paul Simon
Hey! I certainly didn't mean this as a personal attack on you, I was just using a conversation I'd had with you as an example of what I now feel is stupid envy...people, oftentimes younger than me, who know stuff that's far beyond the reaches of what I know. PLEASE girl, you have GOT to realize that I don't really know anything...Duran Duran certainly can't be counted on as a "thing" lately as I'm shaky on even that, and any computer knowledge I have can easily be gleaned from a tutorial found in software or on the Internet...not like I've been using computers long, I've only been knowledgable there since 1993, when I was 14 and got a computer built from used parts by a friend of one of my mom's co-workers. So it's not like I've known computers for a large part of my life.
You see? So that's why I'm so insecure of someone who can be capable of having this deep intellectual conversation on something that CANNOT be gleaned by a software or Internet tutorial, doubly so if the person is so many years younger than I.
And you must realize that for most of my life it's been what I know that has been the most-stressed facet of my personality. My parents and teachers molded me into being this "brain", even when I was itching to get out and play with my classmates. Every time I got a B- at my house you would've thought I had broken the wedding china. In high school I might've been popular, but that was an ALL GIRLS' SCHOOL. No guy would ever talk to me until I was 18 and participating in freshman orientation for college. And do you know how close I came freshman year to blowing my scholarship? There are so many reasons for me to be insecure. And so many reasons why you SHOULDN'T. Don't you realize what you've got? You've got so many opportunities I never had. You've gotten the opportunity to prove yourself as a regular person out there, a boyfriend at 17, this deep intellectual knowledge in something that I could NEVER hope to grasp (whereas you could easily grasp and have probably already grasped whatever computer knowledge I have), the abililty to be a teen at the RIGHT TIME (do you know how hard it was to carve out my own niche as a teen back in 1992?), and so much more. You even mentioned being online at 13...do you realize that I wasn't online till I was 18? And that at that time I met the very first Duranies I'd ever met in my entire life? Imagine...having a deep passion for something from the time you're 12 to the present, and not having a single person to share that passion with until you're 18. And do you know how many good friends I have in real life? FOUR. Yes, count them up, four. Not a whole lot, no? Well, that's because those four are the four I keep up with and have kept up with through the years and long distances.
So once again I urge you to reconsider what I'd originally posted, with the information I'd just put up here, please. You don't know how much your posts have distressed me. And you don't know how lucky you are to be you.
In reply to Dagny: I didn't think it was a flame (and believe me, in a couple of the NG's I post to, there are FLAMES); in fact I think Diane was being quite tactful in *not* mentioning any names. I thought it was an honest and heartfelt post. Beyond that, the only thing I'm going to say is that I hope you two can work out whatever differences you have.
And a couple of notes for Diane:
You know a lot more than you think you do.
I never felt similar pressure, but I do kind of emphasize with you here. When I was in the 3rd grade, I was promoted to the 4th grade--in the middle of the school year. Suddenly everyone was a year older than me, and a year more mature, all the way through grade school and high school. I feel this has had repercussions (I hope I spelled that right :-) ) in my life ever since.
For various reasons (some of it relating to what I mentioned above, some of it due to family problems) I didn't even try to get any scholarships for college. I went to work after graduating high school.
Heck, it took me until age 35 (2 years ago)....when I was 18, there WASN'T an Internet (or at least, not one available to the general public). There weren't chat rooms or newsgroups. Young people nowadays have so much more opportunity to make contact with people who share their interests and opinions and feelings.
I have three, actually. Can I borrow one of yours now and then? :-)
you know that's why you aren't intellectual, because your teachers and parents molded your brain, and you let them.
Good for you. No guy besides a few degenerate outcasts would talk to me for most of my life, and that's going to a co-ed school, and I never had any sort of romantic relationship until THIS MAY. I'd never even been on a date.
Oppurtunities? Oppurtunities for what? Oppurtunities to be hated by the majority of my teachers and called a murderer by my principal? To be laughed at by my peers? And, of course, to be continually attacked or mocked on the basis of my age... people who can't believe a 17 year old could hear of Kerouac and Dylan on her own, or that she isn't a real Beatles fan and her views on any issue are irrelevant because she is too young.
explain. Everyone in "real life" thinks I am a psychotic, ranging from "psychotic genius" to "potential psychotic serial murderer"
Only because you don't let yourself, you're shut within a very specific paradigm and unwilling to loosen your grip and take a look around.
actually I'm only beginning to learn HTML! And I'll never be very efficient at web design because my visual abilities are ZERO.
Very few people were online when you were 13, dear. I think one person in my class that year- 92- was. When I was 13 it was about 2/3.
I have found one Goon fan in the state of Michigan and the only Bonzo fans I know are ones I have gone to other states to meet. I have a clue what that means.
I have three, and one currently thinks I'm going to spawn the antichrist.
that's your problem. Stop blaming me for your inferiority complex.
that's a bunch of shit. Lucky people are not fired from jobs shelving books and do not have money stolen by their bosses at Burger King. You know how I survived last year? Through a friend over the Internet I e-mailed every day. Last Spring he had a mental breakdown, he ended up hospitalized. He still hasn't really recovered. You'd probably think he's lucky, too, he's very intelligent. Lucky people do not have their principal say you're a murderer, or their friends say you are bringing about Armageddon.
And intelligence is no great charm, either: it's a guarantee of being outcast and permanently unsatisfied.
But what you envy me for is intellectualism, which you assume I was born with. Let me tell you: no. It came through a lot of hardship. Part of this involve jumping in over my head a lot and saying stupid shit as the road to learning, but it was damn embarassing at the time, and I sure as hell felt stupid. And there was not an ability towards intellectual thought without an (over) dramatic break, when I told the teacher at the Sunday School I was forced to go to that God was a lie and they were all full of shit. But I couldn't even agree with myself on that point, but what I did have to do was break free of blind belief into a reconsideration of beliefs. And then, gradually (I'm still doing this) settling down to the point where I can seriously consider works like those of Nietzsche without being totally shut to the ideas of Christianity and without pissing off all Christians every chance I get for no reason.
And there's critical thinking, which you have probably never been taught. Don't worry, the best way to be a good student is not to think. If I didn't think, I'd be valedictorian. Thinking causes disagreements with teachers and failing papers. But you never cared about World War One, evolution, or the works of James Joyce, so you just studied what the teachers told you to. That's the recipe for the success you wanted. Don't blame me that's the path you chose.
And remember: you have control over what you do. You are of adult age. Besides that, you're a human individual. I don't control you, you're parents don't control you, your schools don't control you. If you want to do something, do it. If you want to learn something, look it up. If you want to get over your feelings of inferiority for God's sake get over them.
Dagny
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/
"If they outlaw evolution, only outlaws will evolve"
On 19 Oct 1999 23:26:59 GMT, in alt.tv.daria you wrote:
It seems you are the only person who sees it that way. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "it had the same effect as one."
(Snip)
It's always fascinated me, that when two insecurities clash it results in the more aggressive persona tearing down the life of the other whilst nailing him/herself to the great cross of self-martyrdom...
Unless this was intended as a poorly crafted attempt at using 'tough love'?
Well, she didn't use my name, but she mentioned one person 2 years younger that she was talking to. That was me. I didn't mention it at the time because she apologized for insulting me. However, congratulating you all for supporting her post sorta says she's not sorry for insulting me.
I was only trying to tell Diane that she first of all allowed herself to be a victim, and, second of all, that my life has not been easy, which she for some unknown reason assumes it has.
Dagny
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/
"If they outlaw evolution, only outlaws will evolve"
On 21 Oct 1999 18:58:20 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
And that's where my opinion differs from yours: I didn't see an insult directed at the person she didn't name. A touch of the irrational resentment that accompanies jealousy, maybe. (And going into depth about the struggles you had to go through to get where you are can only increase that jealousy.)
And the support she recieved had more to do with the personal issues rather than for reactions towards the person who triggered those issues. What I saw was "We like you, we all feel like that, don't let it get to you." Not "We're sorry some self-righteous jerk made you feel like that," which is what you seem to be seeing here.
Then we're even in this thread, on the count of misinterpreted intentions.
I'll tell you something, though: I'll trade my life of relative ease for all your difficulties without thinking twice. Ease encourages complacency. The only real challenge in my life, at the moment, is overcoming the atrophy my once great mind has suffered.
Why else would I brave the troll-infested waters of Usenet?
You're not a "troll". You're a beloved and highly-valued member of this group. And someone whom I am honored to call "friend".
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
I can agree with that. Also I might point out that, at least on the B & N thing, it would seem that most people agree with Dagny. I've seen numorous posts that disagree with whoever made the 'troll comment', and yet said person seems to only be arguing with Dagny. Odd.
*shrug* I don't agree with her on the B&N thing either, and I don't think she's a troll. I don't think the other person involved is a troll either, probably cause I agree with her. People have a right to disagree doncha think? The only thing that I didn't really like was the name-calling, which really should be reserved to e-mail instead of a newsgroup. Quite personally, I think both parties are an integral part of alt.tv.daria, and just because they disagree on certain things doesn't mean one is an outsider and another person isn't. ISTR that we've had worser arguments than this before, and I think we all still pretty much get along okay. Just as long as hatred and anger don't get involved, it should be okay.
Just my two cents.
Nicole Lee Also known as LadyKender on IRC and ICQ. The Darianite Revolution at http://members.xoom.com/nlsy/daria.htm Kendermore at http://members.xoom.com/nlsy/ The Nicole Chronicles at http://members.xoom.com/nlsy/press.htm
"But I don't want to be in any 'inner circle cabal thing.'" -Hallucinating Elvis Lady to SpaceRanger on atd-
Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313 BB- FCD +DT q fN
I can agree as well. (Barring the 'friend' part, as I don't know *anyone* here well enough to call them friend, and highly doubt my behaviour has endeared me to Dagny.)
T'was not my intention to call her a troll; and I apologize for giving the impression that I did. The comment was directed at usenet in general, not Dagny.
I'd call it unfortunate, rather than odd, but that's probably due to perspective. I've been on the other side of this argument enough times to understand where you're coming from.
On 19 Oct 1999 23:26:59 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
The girls on atd are the only girls I've ever had any kind of relationship/friendship with. And I have 13 years of co-ed school and 3 years of college behind me. See, how lucky you both are. Now stop pitying yourself and pity ME, for god's sake :-) MSB
Well, having conducted a poll on this subject, I can clearly say that the inner circle has exactly 0 members, while according to wicka_chick, atd has about 60....
my teenage years suck because i broke a mirror just after turning thirteen, and if i've done my maths right i'll be 20 by the time the bad luck wears off. nice one, alli...
I wouldn't sweat it too much, alli... I broke my first mirror when I was around seven years old... I cried because I really believed I'd have bad luck but after the seven years were up and bad stuff still happened, I realized I needed to make my own luck... BTW, I've cracked and broken so many since then that I'm going to have to live a couple of lifetimes just so I can serve out all my supposed bad-luck time... It's good to know that with the progress medical science is making today, I just might get to do so... :)
well Diane seemed to be upset. You know to much too,
Dagny
http://parsley-firefly.isCool.net
"And the people bowed and prayed to the neon god they made... and the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls and whispered in the sounds of silence" Paul Simon
It's only Diane's original post that was meant as a flame. She personally attacked me on this group for discussions we had privately.
Of course she was too cowardly to actually use my name so everyone on this group supported her in this flaming effort without knowing you were flaming me.
Now you know: you were flaming me.
I appreciate it.
Dagny
http://parsley-firefly.isCool.net
"And the people bowed and prayed to the neon god they made... and the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls and whispered in the sounds of silence" Paul Simon
i wasn't flaming anybody, not even this *anonymous person* whom we didn't know was dagny.
on a completely irrelevant note (i feel the need to vent), i have spent all day being interrogated about what it's like to get off (US: make out) with someone who has two tongue piercings. quite nice actually, i am ashamed to say, thank you very much. blech. males.
How can it be a personal attack if Diane had the discretion not to use your name? But even if I were to agree with this interpretation:
Non sequitur.
If you want it step by step, as it looks from my perspective:
Definition: Flaming: pursuing heated personal attack 1. A feels inadequate in private conversation with B. 2. A says, without naming B, that A is consequently thinking of leaving group (ABC...). 3. C says C would miss A, and C has had those feelings too, in different contexts. Conclusion: Therefore C is flaming B. Non sequitur.
The general format of many people's replies here, was "I hope Diane sticks around. I'd miss her. We all feel inadequate at times." If you want to check mine, well, it's waiting for your call at http://bx6.dejanews.com/=sb/getdoc.xp?AN=535738023
I can't see how that translates into a flame of you, the general format of which I'd expect to be, "Dagny's an [adjective] [adjective] [noun] who [adverb] [verb], because she can't [verb]. She's just like a [simile]. She ought to [verb] more often."
NB, Dagny, I'm differing with your view about what is and isn't a flame, not attacking you. I treasure your presence here, as well as Diane's. If it were otherwise, I'd have just skipped onto the next message without choosing to reply. But I have to confess that in this particular thread, I find Diane's approach ("I feel inadequate") more endearing than yours ("You're all attacking me.").
We're not flaming you, and it's possible for us to like Diane *and* like you. I hope with an opportunity for reflection you'll come to see that.
Hey I didn't flame you. In fact looking at the responses I don't see any flames. Just because people were supportive of Diane doesn't mean they were taking sides in some argument - I don't see any posts that were critical of the whoever it was that had upset her, people mostly said things along the lines of "that's just the way it is round here - don't let it upset you".
That's just the way it is round here. Don't let it upset you.
Maybe I'm just dense, but I just don't get it. No names were used in the original post and as I don't do chat I had no idea who Diane was talking about, nor was that what I got from the original post. An ATDer was feeling like an idiot. As a professional idiot, all I had to say was don't worry about it.
I've hung around in enough of the darker and danker corners of usenet to know a bright spot when I land in it. All I did was give what meager support I could to a fellow member of the inner circle cabal, just as I would do for you, Dagny, and yes, even the avenging angel Kyle.
This is the one place where I actually give a damn and care about the people here, all of them. If my telling Diane that I don't give a rats ass what she knows or doesn't know offends you in any way Dagny, please forgive me, I meant no offense.
One of the people I've come to care about was talking about leaving this place. That upset me. It would upset me if you talked that way, or Kyle, or the Martins, or the Cheryls, or any and all of the other people here that I've come to think of as my friends. I've got few enough friends as it is. I don't want to lose any here, even if the feeling is only one way.
You know, when I first started lurking on this ng, I found most of the non-Daria related posts mind-boggling. One that recently sticks out in my mind is that thread about Christ-like figures in literature. At first, I found such discussions intimidating. But now instead of sweating it, I just read them, nod, & move on to the next topic.
It did bug me for a while that discussions frequently went off topic b/c I thought that newsgroups were formed for one topic & one topic only, and that no extraneous discussions were permitted. But since I de-lurked 2 months ago, I am grateful to the exposure to various opinions & ideas. I live in Alabama, which IMO is a freakin' intellectual desert. So this ng is a Godsend for me, because otherwise I wouldn't hear ANYTHING about things like James Joyce or great literature, or things that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Alabama/Auburn football.
Diane, don't worry about not knowing a "boatload" of stuff. Heck, you're young, you have plenty of time to learn things. I'm in my 30's, and so far the most important thing I've learned is that I still have much to learn. And think about this: how do you know that that younger person REALLY knew what he/she/it was talking about? They could just be doing a good job of blowing smoke & posing as a learned scholar. Who knows-- it may be that they have knowledge about that one subject & be dumb as a post about everything else.
I'm sure everyone has moments when their brain goes on meltdown. I've had it plenty of times while posting to this group. (Thank goodness one thing I've learned is how to delete my bad posts on AOL!) Some nights I'm a "Daria" (very brainy), and some nights I'm a "Kevin" (with barely enough IQ to say "Duuuuuuh".) Most nights I'm in the middle.
I hope what I'm saying helps you. I'd miss you if you left. I strongly feel that this newsgroup wouldn't be as rich and diverse if you left. Besides, you're my one contact with my ol' hometown of San Antonio, AND you like Duran Duran. Those are plusses in my book! There's nothing that says you can't be a spectator in the intellectual debates, and that there's no requirement that you have to reply to EVERY SINGLE POST (at least I HOPE not).
So relax & enjoy the ride. Daria may know a lot of facts, & she may get great grades in school, but she hasn't developed much wisdom yet, IMO. But she's still young. And she wouldn't be intimidated by a supposed lack of intellect, and neither should you. You are NOT dumb -- far from it.
I hope to see more of your posts very, very soon (erudite or not).
Chirping through the night (with my intellect in NEUTRAL),
I was gonna formulate an individual reply to each one of you guys who replied, but since the illness struck, I haven't felt up to doing much of anything at all. So I'm going to go straight out and say this overall message...
Wow. You guys are the most caring bunch out there. I kid you not. When I posted this message, I expected maybe three, four replies at the most...but to get all that, from this one post...man, thank you guys so much for caring.
I know I shouldn't worry about the multitude of things I don't know, but I do. I mean, I even have a complex about what I think I know about Duran Duran, which is mainly what I can claim knowledge-wise. I'm patently hard on myself, and am still trying to work out my self-loathing past.
I guess some of the pressure about having to know as much as I can comes from my parents. They both went only as high as graduating from high school (which was good for poor children of Mexican immigrants back in the early '60s), and have risen themselves and our family to a nice American middle-class existence, but they still let me know that we live paycheck to paycheck and that they want me to not only graduate from college but graduate with top grades in everything. They're disappointed in anything below an A, and have been since I started my first day ever in school.
And while I realize that's a major cop-out type excuse, it's still something that's influenced me.
But anyways, I won't let it bother me again with this newsgroup. You guys are the best, and deserve the best from me. So I'll be on my best behaviour* from now on. Remind me to be pissy with this one Duran Duran forum I had hoped on frequenting a lot (and in fact did frequent a lot at one time) but feel more and more pessimistic with each day that passes.
Once again, thank you.
D.
[*: read-over note...I find myself spelling "behaviour" like that because of my Duranieness...save me]
You're not the only one around here who feels that way. Trust me. That's probably why I only get up enough nerve to post once every few months. I don't think I'm stupid (4.0 gpa, 32 ACT, no of course I'm not bragging), but some people here are just so completely absorbed in the world of Daria, I kinda wonder what I'm doing here. Therefore, don't leave just because you feel inadequate. If everyone that had those feeling packed up and left ATD, there would be damn few people remaining to carry on a conversation.