Spoilers for Episode # 510 Aunt Nauseum

Spoiler Space 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 What the hell happened to Quinn? Did she and Stacy switch temperment?

EXAMPLE:

SANDI - Well if I can't say 'Sandi Griffin's Dracula' why does Brad Stoker get to say 'Brad Stoker's Dracula'?

QUINN - Uhm...I think that's Bram Stoker...

SANDI - <gives the evil eye>I don't!

QUINN - Uh perhaps not...

Maybe the stress of Helen and Rita bickering at home finally robbed Quinn of any self confidence.

However she was doing a real good impersonation of the the 'old Stacy' whenever Sandi felt threatened.

Speaking of Stacy: Yes! The dresses. Her selflessness and declaration of friendship to Tiffany made me so proud I could have just popped!

If this continues Sandi might be forced out and STACY might run a kinder-and-gentler Fashion Club.

I'm starting to act like MMan in regards to that little girl.

Although I ain't in love with her like *he* is.

:)

Yes I'm dwelling on the B plot more than the A plot because the Daria staff are just making the FC so damn interesting.

I'm not saying that the plot regarding the Sister's Barksdale 40 year feud was not interesting...

I'll leave that for others to fill in

P.S. You notice I didn't mention Aunt Amy once?

P.S.S. Okay I just mentioned her but that doesn't count...right?

Firah

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:WP_S6.65824$[email], on the date of 04 Jun 2001:

A u t h e n t i c - C i v i l - W a r - R e c i p e - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

I'm pretty sure that she was just overstressed by Helen and Rita, hence her desperate attempts to make peace (she complimented Daria's hair!) and her speech in Cashman's. (I don't think she was quite so stressed out in the first scene with Sandi - I think she was just doing her usual 'maybe, maybe not' act.) The fact that she was actually worried that she and Daria might end up like Helen and Rita was very touching, I thought (and I also think they don't need to worry; Helen learned *something* from her parents' mistakes).

Just as an aside, the whole exchange about Dracula cracked me up - "He's an internationally famous celebrity vampire"! (Nice continuity with 'Lucky Strike' in that Sandi once again knows a movie based on a literary work ("Bram Stoker's Dracula") rather than the work itself.) (And Mr. O'Neill actually gave her an F? He must have had to force himself...)

That was very nice, especially since Tiffany and Stacy had been angry with each other in Cashman's, provoking Quinn's outburst. Stacy's debate statement in defense of her right to the dress was good, too. (Sandi complimented her on it!) But Tiffany's presentation...well, as Sandi said, "Perhaps a debate is not the way to go here."

Well, if Sandi does get forced out she'll always have one person here waiting for her with open arms. ^_^

Can't think of much to say at the moment (it just passed midnight, and my brain locked up), except that I thought the Civil War theme wove through the episode nicely, with the Barksdale sisters' feud mirrored by the Fashion Club's, with minor skirmishing around the edges (Erin's divorce, Jake vs. Helen, and Daria's hostility to Tom - he *really* likes her). And they worked in an excellent gag about Chancellorsville (the whole running joke about Jake's Civil War cookbook was great).

It's hard to say which will draw the ire of the Amyists more - Amy getting sucked into the fight between Helen and Rita, or Amy participating in the group hug! (I thought that was hilarious, myself. And Helen and Rita didn't even have to get drunk first...)

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

:-)

That was a good one.

How did she ever make it this far in school?

At least it doesn't appear that Stacy and Tiffany are copying from her anymore.

I think also that Tom had a rough idea what was bothering Daria - and it wasn't him.

Interesting comments by Tom about his "repressed" home life. It reminded me that we haven't seen Angier, Kate and Elsie this season. Maybe in the movie?

I don't suppose we'll see Amy or Rita again. I think we're down to the farewell tour :-(

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 05 Jun 2001: A u t h e n t i c - C i v i l - W a r - R e c i p e - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

That's a good question...we know Kevin gets a bye on some of his exams because of his QB status (shown in "See Jane Run"), but I doubt if being President of the Fashion Club would earn Sandi the same privileges. On the other hand, while she got a low mark on her P-STATs, it wasn't failing- grade low; she probably manages to squeak by in most of her courses, although English definitely looks like a problem...

Now they've started copying each other. ^_^

There's also the fact that he's had some time to get accustomed to Daria's unique social skills.

I hope so - that story could definitely use some fleshing out.

Well, Amy has always had a much larger presence in fanfic than on the show, in any case. She's kind of the Boba Fett of "Daria." ^_^

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus Envisioning an Aunt Amy/Boba Fett crossover fic...

I still wonder how she made it this far. She doesn't even read the assignments. How can she do math? How can she pass history? I can't imagine DeMartino cutting her a break.

Social promotion, I guess.

I didn't like the look of that dress on either one of them. It made them look fa-, uh, thinly-challenged.

... especially when you remember how she acted when she FIRST met him.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 05 Jun 2001:

A u t h e n t i c - C i v i l - W a r - R e c i p e - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

I don't remember that Sandi's incompetence in any class other than English has been established; if she is capable of getting passing grades in the other subjects, she's not very likely to advertise the fact.

(Stacy: You're so smart, Sandi! Sandi: And you'll notice *I* don't make like a big thing about it. -"Quinn the Brain")

If so, that cuts against the idea that the Fashion Club is pretty much a joke at Lawndale. I'm more inclined to go with the idea that she's just competent enough to squeak by.

??? They didn't look as freakishly thin as they usually do, I guess. I got nothin' against curves, though. (I thought Sandi looked better after she gained a few pounds, frankly.)

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

In "Lucky Strike" she complained to Quinn that *all* the other teachers gave them (meaning her) bad grades and she was hoping (hint hint) that Quinn might have some influence on Daria's grading.

But my main point was that, in English, Sandi doesn't read the assignment or even pay attention in class. I don't know why she'd only do this in English. In Demartino's history class (in IIFY) she called Quinn a geek for answering the "Manifest Destiny" question.

the Brain")

I'm not sure what you understand "social promotion" to mean. I've always understood it to mean a policy of promoting students to the next class, regardless of grades, in the belief that being "held back" is so emotionally destructive that a student wouldn't learn by repeating the class anyway.

The *only* thing I like about Sandi is her figure - her usual one.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 07 Jun 2001: M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

In that scene her main concern was that Quinn was publicly advertising her knowledge; Sandi wouldn't volunteer in class even if she did know the answer. Not that I think Sandi usually knows the answers, but it doesn't take very much effort to maintain a low passing grade. Also, we know that Sandi's not averse to cheating, which is a lot easier to do on multiple- choice tests than on essay tests. (Not that I have any experience in that area, or anything...)

Ah. Yes, I misunderstood what you were saying. I suppose they might do that at Lawndale, though it seems like a pretty upscale high school in general - I was under the possibly-mistaken impression that promoting idiots for no good reason mostly happens in city high schools.

Yipes! They're all thin enough to be candidates for anorexia. (Part of it's just the drawing - Jane also has ridiculously thin legs.) On the other hand, they're all a lot cuter than Calista Flockhart - being a cartoon character definitely has its advantages. (Of course, I've seen frogs that were cuter than Calista Flockhart...)

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Unfortunately, no. I went to high school in a rural small town. It happened there. I don't remember anybody being held back from 7th-12th grades, the whole time I was in that school system. Though there were a few dropouts.

Hmmm. I've thought of Tiffany as a possible or probable anorexic, but not the others. A lot of people at that age don't gain weight if they're reasonably active (which Sandi wasn't when she was in the cast). The reason I think Tiffany may be anorexic is that she exhibits a very low energy level - how does she burn off the calories even from a meager diet?

As for Jane, I suppose it's bone structure. Seems to run in the family, as Trent is quite skinny too.

M Man

I attend a relatively upscale high school, a lot like Lawndale, I suppose. The area is populated by engineers, doctors and lawyers. Social promotion (or just a little bit of "extra help") is not too uncommon. There are a lot of parents who would raise hell with the administration over their little darling dumpling not passing 10th grade yet again. Usually, it's just that little bit of extra help (like "recalculating" a grade so it's passing), but some of these people have to be socially promoted. I don't see how they could be passing their classes when they spend most of the day sleeping. So it doesn't just happen in inner-city high schools. Affluent communities would have the same problems, just with different causes.

jessica

Corvus Marinus said:

She was trying to make peace between everyone. Quinn had seen firsthand the horror to which senseless hostility could lead (the divorce, Jake leaving home which must have been very upsetting given the other couple's divorce, and Helen and Rita fighting), and was thus trying to avoid all social ruptures, even the trivial one with Sandi over _Dracula_.

Quinn truly loves Daria.

Sandi probably annoyed O'Neill to the point of mercilessness. She has that effect on people.

Sandi was confronted with the fact that, in a war of wits, Tiffany is unarmed.

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...

her

the

home

Helen

the

maybe

might

Quinn can't help but love Daria, she's her little sister. I can imagine that Quinn's birth was what started the rivalry between the two in the first place.

As we've seen Daria can be (yes I'm going to use THAT word) a cold, vindictive bitch when she's forced to endure situations that are not to her liking.

Thus the basic premise of the show.

Imagine what Quinn must of felt like as a child having to live under Daria's grim, disapproving visage day after day.

Knowing that you are not wanted by your own sister?

That's pretty hard to take. No wonder Quinn is such a messed up little girl that needs to find some type of approval by people like Sandi.

Who, incidently, has more or less the same traits as her big sister when it comes to dealing with people...

Speaking of bitches, is Aunt Rita a self-absorbed, selfish, manipulative, piece of work or what?

Firah

Firah said:

Indeed. Also, a young Daria would have been offended by a lot of Quinn's behavior which was simply immature, rather than malicious. And Quinn would _have_ to be less mature than Daria through their childhood -- she's a year or two younger than her sister.

That's a _very_ good point.

Sandi's nastier than Daria -- but actually easier to appease. For instance, Sandi would have _loved_ to have Amelia as a follower.

Rita is what Quinn could become if she wasn't already showing signs of maturing beyond it. Rita is what Quinn _will_ become if she carries her FC-like attitudes into adult life.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

Seems like it became a vicious cycle -- Daria is offended by the young Quinn's seemingly selfish (and definitely immature) behavior, and disapproves; Quinn notices the disapproval and tries to get approval from others (including guys); and that in turn deepens Daria's disapproval.

Yes -- because Amelia is so desperate for approval she'd do a lot to get it, and because Sandi yearns to have people following her blindly.

Well, let's hope Quinn doesn't carry her FC-like attitudes into adult life. She's showing signs of maturing, so there's hope.

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 06 Jun 2001: M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Sandi likes to have followers, but I think Amelia would get on her nerves very quickly; Sandi would probably be as mean to her as she is to Stacy, and for the same reasons (although Amelia wouldn't put up with it for as long as Stacy did). The one Fashion Club member Sandi doesn't abuse is Tiffany, but Tiffany doesn't follow her blindly; my guess is that Tiffany strikes the right balance between being openly competitive with Sandi and being slavishly devoted to her. Sandi wants henchmen, not slaves.

There is indeed, thanks to some of the best writers who've ever worked for television - when I started watching the show, I never would have guessed that Quinn could be humanized without losing her essential Quinn-ness, but they did it.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

Good point.

They sure did. Good job, writers! And good job, Glenn Eichler.

Belle Book

And making it believable that Daria would have a boyfriend, and Stacy with spunk (and hanging out with Upchuck).

Now, if they can make Sandi nice ....

M Man

Well, Tiffany follows the current FC front-runner blindly. That's usually Sandi. In "The Daria Hunter", it was Quinn most of the way.

I can't remember Tiffany ever challenging Sandi on her own account, just sometimes in support of Quinn.

In "Fat Like Me", Tiffany suddenly had the FC presidency and was totally lost. She just asked Stacy what to do.

I don't think she wants slaves either. She wants yes-girls and sycophants.

'Deed they did!

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 07 Jun 2001:

M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

I wouldn't say 'blindly' - she also pulls her two-faced act in "Fair Enough." It may be that Sandi knows how two-faced Tiffany is and respects her for it - Sandi's twisted enough to appreciate something like that. (I'd love to take a look at the character bible for the show. It also occurred to me that Sandi may have known Tiffany longer than she's known Stacy; Sandi and Tiffany hang out together in several episodes, starting with "The Invitation." I don't suppose we'll ever know.)

Before the fifth season, Quinn typically didn't challenge Sandi openly; she either flattered her insincerely or used that insufferable wheedling technique that she's mostly abandoned. But Tiffany has been notably duplicitous on occasion...

I don't think she was totally lost; she seemed to be enjoying herself well enough - it was Stacy who was going crazy. I'm guessing that the Fashion Club doesn't mean as much to Tiffany as it does to the other three.

Tiffany, though, is less of a sycophant than Quinn, and before the fifth season Stacy was much more easily manipulable than either Tiffany or Quinn. Hmm...maybe Tiffany and Sandi are secretly a couple? ^_^

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message >

Quinn.

Oh God! What's next?

Sandi/Tiffany slash fics??

Please stop the madness!

Firah

"Firah" wrote in message news:0TbU6.70830$[email]...

I said it two years ago (back during the awful "Daria is a lesbian" threads) and it's still true .... the most likely students at Lawndale to be closet gay are (in order), Mack & Jody, Tif, Stacy.

I would have picked Andrea, and (although she's not a student) the girls' gym teacher (Morris?).

M Man

MMan said:

Maybe ... the only evidence we have of this is that we've never seen her romantically linked with a guy. But then, we know almost nothing of Andrea's life ... she seems to have _no_ friends, though she might have some off campus.

For that matter, who do Sandi and Tiffany date? And who, before Upchuck, did Stacy date? (If indeed she dated Upchuck.)

Steve Cross

Steve Cross said:

Random FC dates, probably as emotionally meaningless as Quinn's.

"Chris McCubbin" wrote in message news:YRcU6.32995$[email]...

threads)

Okay, Tiffany and Stacy I could see but MACK and JODIE??!!

I'd really like to here your explanation of why?

I'm not disagreeing with you (okay maybe I am). I just want to know how you arrived at this theory.

Firah

"Firah" wrote in message news:IWdU6.71172$[email]...

closet

you

Hmm, am I really the only one who sees this?

Mack and Jody are both "good" kids. They're both raised by very traditional, conservative, rather controlling parents. They already feel maginalized by their race at Lawndale. They're both high-profile students in leadership positions. They've apparently been "a couple" forever. They seem to genuinely like each other, but their relationship seems to be more brother/sister than boyfriend/girlfriend (we hardly ever see them touch, or even flirt). Obvious conclusion (obvious to me, anyway) is that one or both is gay, and they represent themselves as having a romantic relationship as "cover." Since they do like to hang out together, it isn't a big strain, and they don't have to explain to mom & dad what they're doing Saturday night, and they don't get funny looks at school.

Actually, I get the "closeted" vibe much more strongly off Mack than off Jody, for reasons I can't really articulate (maybe just because as a straight male, the part of me that cares about these things "wants" Jody to be straight ... she's such a babe). Anyway, I threw Jody in at the last minute because I couldn't come up with a non-convoluted reason for her to go along with such a deception (strangling her own social life along the way) without actually benefiting from it.

Chris McCubbin said:

Well, another obvious conclusion is that neither of them is comfortable with public displays of affection. Another possible obvious conclusion is that one, or both, of them is sexually very conservative (Jodie's the obvious choice here). It's also quite possible, though, that when alone they screw like mad bunny rabbits.

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...

with

one,

mad

Well, yeah, Jordan. Sure. But let's keep things in context here. The question is, given that all the characters in Daria are apparently straight, if you suppose that one or two of them might be closeted gay, who's it most likely to be? My vote is Mack (& Jody) for the reasons I outlined above. I'm not trying to "prove" they're gay, just point out that if you weigh the probabilities, they come out a bit ahead of the pack.

I guess I did say it was "obvious," didn't I? OK, my bad. What I found "obvious" was that they *could* be viewed that way (given that we were playing the "who is/who's not" game), not that they *must* be viewed that way, if that makes any sense.

"Chris McCubbin" wrote in message news:U99V6.39174$[email]...

I am not seeing what your seeing.

traditional,

I think this is a major reason why they ARE a couple. BECAUSE they have so much in common

It's not spoken of often, except for in the Homecoming float scene in ILAP, but they do feel 'marginalized'.

Thus them sticking together.

Some people will put this down as some type of 'reverse racism' but you can't help but gravitate to others who look and think like you do.

Let's use another example: If Daria and Tom had ended up in an inner city high school, and were in the same situation as Jodie and Mack, I believe they'd behave the same way.

or

Some relationship's are like that. I find those are sometimes the best. Romance and fireworks are great, but you can't keep that intensity up ALL the time.

Especially if that's ALL there was to the relationship.

You'll burn yourself out trying.

I'd rather have a somone whose sibling/bestfriend than all the romance in the world.

Comfort is a good thing too.

Tom and Daria exemplify this. Unless you think Tom is in the closet too?

Or Daria is in denial?

Obvious conclusion (obvious to me, anyway) is that one or both

and

Didn't the scene with Mack and Jodie in the soup kitchen kind of squash this theory?

to

The first time I saw Jodie Landon I was blown away. She looks EXACTLY like my sister!

They both act the same way too. Overacheiver and all. My sister had her entire life planned out by the time she was 16 years old and, so far, is right on schedule.

Go figure.

Anyway back to the subject at hand...

Weren't you referencing a thread of yore? The 'Daria is a lesbian' thread?

I bet that got started because Daria and Jane were 'sisterly' close?

You're either too close, or not close enough!

Damn!

Chris, I am not feeling you on this...

Firah

It's more than just race. Jodie and Mack have speaking roles, but if you look at all the students walking the halls at LHS, they're not all white, though the majority are.

Interesting thought.

I think you're right. Except for Kev and Brit, what characters are openly affectionate in public?

Your sister must have great legs. :-)

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 12 Jun 2001:

[massive snip]

Well, Ms. Barch and Mr. O'Neill have been openly affectionate in public (in "Daria Dance Party" and "Just Add Water"). *shudder* They're also shameless enough to have had a lovers' spat in the corridors of Lawndale ("Sappy Anniversary"). So it seems as though shamelessness is the deciding factor for PDA's in the world of 'Daria.' Hmmm.

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Sorry. I meant to say "students". Or "intelligent life forms". Or something that excluded Janet and Timmy.

M Man

"Firah" wrote in message news:NAjV6.77773$[email]...

by

ILAP,

Sure, absolutely. But this could also be viewed as the reason they stick together, even if there was no sexual attraction there.

Oh yeah, of course. As a happily-married man, I know exactly what you mean. I could point out that Jody & Mack are teenagers, and therefore more likely to be "enthusiastic" about such things, but even so, some teenagers are capable of exercising self restraint.

Anyway, as I told Jordan above, I'm not trying to "prove" that Mack is gay, and I don't actually believe Mack is gay, nor are any of the other characters (nor do I think the writers have any particular moral obligation to include a gay character in the cast). I'm just playing the game of, "If someone is, who is it?" I say Mack, for the reasons I gave. He seems to fit the profile, that doesn't mean he's "guilty" (the preceeding tortured metaphor should not be confused with disparagement of any group whatsoever).

Heh. There's probably a decent thread to be written on this. I think Daria and Tom both definitely have intimacy issues, but I doubt it has much to do with sexual identity.

as

night,

this

Remind we what happened?

Nah, it started because somebody thought Daria "dressed like a lesbian." Like I said, it was pretty atrocious.

'scool. Just a game, anyway. Like "where is Lawndale?"

"Chris McCubbin" wrote in message news:SlsV6.40741$[email]... {snippage}

IIFY when Mack gave Jodie a dozen roses after getting angry with each other on the phone.

thread?

Okay. If you're speculating speculation.....

Firah

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:NAjV6.77773$[email], on the date of 12 Jun 2001:

You're not alone - see below.

There's also their verse of the "The Big Wet Rainstorm's Over" from "Daria!":

"But if the town were blown away And all the people gone today We'd be in the majoritay" (They look at each other and smile; then the realization sinks in.)

And it's not like there's anyone at Lawndale Jodie would be *more* likely to gravitate to. Mack is smart, observant, popular, and handsome; Jodie is smart, observant, popular, and beautiful; it would be implausible if they *weren't* a couple.

I think that's what happened to Jane and Tom; once the infatuation started to cool, they found they had very little in common. They both tried to reignite the romance (Tom by taking Jane to a 'romantic' restaurant, Jane by dying her hair) because they didn't want to give it up, but they didn't have anything to build a long-term relationship on. Jodie and Mack have never seemed bored with each other.

It's difficult to imagine that Mack would have put up with an extra week of torture in the ice cream truck so he could take Jodie to Chez Pierre just to maintain a cover story. Actually, it's impossible to imagine (for me, anyway).

I hope you don't mind my saying that it's very cool that you're related to a Daria character.

Either that, or the usual fantasizing that some of the characters inspire among certain, um, overimaginative posters (although that particular pairing never made sense to me, oddly enough). It is true that some people can't believe that same-sex friends can be truly close and *not* be lovers.

It doesn't make sense to me, either; I can't even see a hint in Jodie's or Mack's behavior that suggests one or the other might be gay.

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Firah wrote:

I tend to agree with your assessment of Jane and Tom -- thanks to Jane's tendency to hook up with guys very quickly and Tom's occasional impulsiveness, they got involved * way * too quickly and once the infatuation began to cool off, first Tom, then Jane began to realize they had little in common. Supporting evidence comes from "Fire!", when Jane's statement about what kind of relationship she and Tom had caused Jodie to ask, "You're kidding, right?" While I knew Jane wasn't kidding, I could understand Jodie's reaction, as that would be something I'd be thinking, even if I knew Jane was being serious. Oh, and in that very episode, Jodie's asked if she feels she and Mack are drifting apart. Jodie says they don't have time to drift apart with their schedules. While I'm glad she and Mack haven't drifted apart, I was kind of sad concerning the line. Still, this was before "Is It Fall Yet?", so things may have changed a bit by now.

Belle Book

And added, rather cynically I thought (by her standards) "Not a bad system."

One of the subplots from IIFY I wish they'd followed up on. Maybe in IICY.

M Man

M Man wrote:

It * was * rather cynical, but I think she was also being sarcastic. I couldn't be satisfied with that kind of a system. I don't mean that I'd want any future boyfriends to spend all his time with me -- that was the mistake Quinn made in "One J At A Time" (with a little help from Daria, of course), but I would like to have time for this future boyfriend, unlike Jodie (much of the time).

I hope they follow up on the subplot, too.

Belle Book

That was a funny episode, but rather sad, too. Quinn, despite her dating experience, obviously has literally not a clue what she's doing when it comes to real boyfriends.

Well, she looked downcast when she said it, not like she was cracking a joke. I took it to mean that she thought she and Mack would have split up if they had been spending lots of time together.

M Man

M Man wrote:

That's because she's never been in a real boyfriend/girlfriend relationship before (of course, she never really wanted to be). At least, that's part of the problem -- Daria had not been in a real boyfriend/girlfriend relationship before Tom came along, and yet I think she had more of a clue as to what she was doing in "Is It Fall Yet?" than Quinn did in OJAAT.

Hmm, very interesting. Remind me to rewatch "Fire!" next time it's on.

Belle Book

Well, there's always got to be a first time, but Quinn was really bad - choosing a boyfriend by literally going "eenie, meenie, mynie, moe", rambling on to Jamie for hours about an article in "Waif" - probably of interest to 0% of boys and 1% of girls, trying to make Joey get tickets to a sold-out concert at the last minute, letting Sandi and Daria play transperant head-games with her...

I suppose she could have done worse, but I don't have enough imagination to figure out how.

Watch "Fire!" the next time it's on :-)

M Man

M Man wrote:

Yeah -- she was * really * not using her head in that episode the way she should have.

I think I know a way she could've done worse -- she could've picked Upchuck. Or Kevin -- which would've meant facing Brittany's wrath.

Belle Book

Ol' Chuck's starting to look like a decent guy recently - sort of.

She made her play for Kevvy in "The Lab Brat".

Part of my point (especially the eenie, meenie, mynie, moe part) is that just picking a steady boyfriend "off the rack" is even shallower an idea than her regular dating techniques. She might have actually tried getting to know some guys beyond their cars and "cuteness" and social standing.

You're right, though, that any of the J's might have been a decent choice for her - because they actually like her, I think. Unlike, say, Skylar, whose attentions toward her were as shallow as hers toward him (he told her they should be together because they're both so popular).

M Man

M Man wrote:

Again, that's one episode I have to see -- but I did read the transcript to it, and that's why I remembered that she could've always made a play for Kevin.

Trying to get to know a guy beyond their cars and cuteness and social standing would've been a great tactic -- and something Daria would've done. Too bad Quinn didn't ask Daria for steady dating advice, as Daria had a boyfriend.

Yes, for all the Three J's nearly-pathetic following Quinn around, they do really like her. That's why I think she could've done much worse -- she could've dated Skylar steady. Or that guy -- was his name Corey?

Belle Book

Tactic? I'm not sure I'd call it a tactic.

Quinn needed advice on *finding* a steady boyfriend. I think Daria's method comes under the heading of "don't try this at home, kids".

Though, on the other hand, she did know Tom for quite a while.

Oh, yeah, Corey. I once called him a "sneer in sneakers".

M Man

In article , [email] (Belle Book) wrote:

Quinn once observed that "dating has been my major field of study for (don't remember how many) years." She has a conceit that she knows more about it than Daria does, despite the fact Daria has a boyfriend and Quinn doesn't.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross said:

Quinn in fact knows _far_ more about "dating" than Daria does. Most of the time Daria has spent with Tom, Quinn wouldn't consider to be very good "dates."

Of course, "dating" has very little to do with love.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

And I think we can safely say that Quinn's never been in love, though she's "dated". As for Daria, if she doesn't love Tom just yet, I think she's very close to doing so.

Belle Book

Chris McCubbin said:

Why Mack and Jodie?

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Chris McCubbin" did write in news:YRcU6.32995$[email], on the date of 08 Jun 2001:

Mack *and* Jodie? So, Mack is really a girl in drag? Hmm...

What about the three J's? While they're all obsessed with Quinn, none of them seems to show the slightest hint of sexual desire for her. Maybe she's just their diva queen...

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Chris McCubbin wrote in message news:YRcU6.32995$[email]...

message

threads)

Why?

Ah. It's time to post to one of the binary groups the epic erotic Daria comic "Deep Daria" :)

Daria: "I didn't know you were gay." Jane: "Bi, actualy. As an artist, it's expected."

"Invid Fan" wrote in message news:080620012013520358%[email]...

Believe me I have already read it...

I've been to your site.

And another shameful truth comes to light....I loved it!

You are so foul! <BAG>

Firah

In article , Firah wrote:

If the story is on a site, it's without my knowledge or permision. Where is it?

Hey, I have a dirty mind and love Karsten's art :)

"Invid Fan" wrote in message news:080620012254037475%[email]...

Daria

I'll email you...this is your email ain't it?

Firah

Firah wrote in message news:69hU6.69467$[email]...

Send it to me as well.

*sheepish*

Whhaaaaaaaaaatt?

Invid Fan said:

It succeeded, unlike most fan porn, because you got the personalities as close to right as you could, given that you were telling a sex story about characters who for the most part in the real series are virginal.

AMEN! I saw it, and I was laughing at the jokes because they were so spot-on. The scene at the end with Sandi had me rolling. And, as someone else said, the art was great, too. Jill Friedman, the Leopard Lady http://leopardlady.dreamwater.net "Sheep go to heaven. Goats- go to hell."-Cake "Base 8 is just like Base 10, really...if you're missing two fingers."-Tom Lehrer

In article , Jill Friedman the Leopard Lady wrote:

[regarding the comic "Deep Daria"]

Thanks. The best fan 'porn' is something that is completely in character, and I did my best :)

Ok, for those that want the history of this... Kevin Karstens is an artist who likes drawing sexy cartoon women. I met him years ago when he posted some pics of Disney girls, Luann and For Better or Worse characters. He does custom art on commision, and having money to burn and a desire to support the arts have thrown work his way ^_^ This comic was done in two batches, and there were also two shorter comics and a number of single panels. Hey, nobody else was filling the void in alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons.original-art :)

Anyways, somebody unknown has posted the entire Deep Daria comic at http://www.wvinter.net/~cws/BWCS/dariaporn/dariaporn.html . I would love to find someplace to host all the pics, but most Daria sites seem to be anti-funny smut.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid Invid Fan did write in news:080620012013520358%[email], on the date of 08 Jun 2001:

I've heard rumors about that, but as yet I've never seen it. Do let us know when and where you post it.

(Not that I have a dirty mind, or anything.)

(All right, yes, I have a dirty mind!)

Yours, Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus "The *good* kind of dirty."

Invid Fan wrote in message news:080620012013520358%[email]...

Now this I've got to see. I have some one to torment with it.

In article , Firah wrote:

The thought of Tiffany having sex ... and *noticing* ... is beyond me. I can't imagine her being part of a 'secret couple'.

Mikel Midnight said:

So does ... that .... mean we're ... a ... couple? Which one ... of ... us ... is the ... guy?

In article , Firah wrote:

The thought of Tiffany having sex ... and *noticing* ... is beyond me. I can't imagine her being part of a 'secret couple'.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid Mikel Midnight did write in news:090620010840338916%[email], on the date of 09 Jun 2001:

M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Well, maybe she's not in on the secret.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:0TbU6.70830$[email], on the date of 08 Jun 2001: M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Hey! There's already a Stacy/Quinn slash fic - I say give the other two FC'ers equal time! ^_^

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message news:[email]...:

Yeah but usuall the Quinn/Stacy relationships seems so sweet. Sandi and Tiffany...it would be all about dom/sub.

Tiffany: Sandi, I mean Mistress, does this harness make me look fat?

Firah

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:7utU6.72422$[email], on the date of 09 Jun 2001:

M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Sandi: Tiffany, you're wearing a black harness. According to this month's issue of 'Whip Waif,' aubergine is the recommended color for harnesses.

Tiffany: Sorry.

(Quinn walks into the room.) Quinn: Hey, I - AAAH! What - what -

Sandi: Oooh! (She flees.)

Tiffany (to Quinn): I can't believe she thinks she's more dominant than you are.

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Now THERE's some realistic fanfic dialogue!

M Man

An episode I've never seen.

Hint to MTV or whoever gets the show in syndication: rerun all the episodes in order.

Stacy;

That would be interesting to know. I'm writing a fanfic in which Sandi and Stacy go back to at least eighth grade.

Quinn has been bold enough to disagree with Sandi, though she tries to soft-pedal it. In "Quinn the Brain" she wore black and got nearly all the other girls in school wearing black against the explicit disapproval of Sandi.

"Enjoying" as in a brainless stupor? She didn't have any idea on how to recruit new members or pick topics for discussion. Or anything else. She didn't DO anything as FC president. She had to ask Stacy even for meeting times.

Of course she was. She explained why quite eloquently - because Tiffany did nothing.

It ought to. Without the FC, Tiffany wouldn't do anything except stare into mirrors.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 08 Jun 2001: M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

I remember when they used to do that; that's how I got most of the series on tape. It truly sucks that they don't do it any more. Much as I love the summaries and transcripts on "Outpost Daria," there's a lot of detail that you can't pick up without seeing the episodes.

I've occasionally wondered what their elementary school days were like. Other than the brief glimpse in "Daria Dance Party," we've never seen anything of Sandi's, Stacy's, or Tiffany's past.

I don't think she did that intentionally; she was obviously distressed when Sandi ordered her to take a fashion sabbatical.

Of course! This is *Tiffany* we're talking about.

But she didn't show any signs of caring about it, either. Her own incompetence left her completely unfazed.

Because she didn't really care one way or the other. Even the thought of quitting the Club (at the point when she was the only member left!) didn't seem to make any difference to her.

Hey! What about her extracurricular activities, like Social Skills counseling?

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus "You made me lose my place..."

I've managed to get all but five episodes on tape - some of them on the two tapes MTV has sold commerically in the US (though many more are available overseas).

But she didn't change until she "started to feel like a phony".

She was fazed enought to lean on Stacy.

Kind of a joke at that point - who cares whether you quit or remain if you're the only member - especially when you're proven you can't recruit new members.

I stand corrected.

Extracurricular ... activities ... are .... very .... important ....

:-)

M Man

Corvus Marinus said:

It may be that Sandi originally hung out with Tiffany because Tiffany is _definitely_ beautiful, and Tiffany with Sandi because Sandi is smart enough to protect Tiffany from the consequences of her own stupidity. Stacy may have come in later, because Sandi and Tiffany wanted someone to hang out with who was acceptable-looking but whom they could feel superior to.

Quinn was also the "new kid." She still is, in the FC, but she's been there long enough now that she has strong ties with both Tiffany and Stacy.

Possibly, but there's no evidence. Tiffany seemed to prefer Quinn to Sandi in "Fat Like Me," in particular. I could argue that _Quinn_ is a lesbian, and Tiffany and Stacy her lovers (_Deep Daria_ plays with that idea). Well, no, I don't think that's true either :)

By the end of "Fat Like Me", I don't think Tiffany felt superior to Stacy :-) :-).

More than "prefer". When Quinn announced Sandi's resignation (before announcing her own), Tiffany seemed to be almost bursting with joy. I never remember seeing Tiffany so happy.

"Long Live the Quinn!"

Me neither!

M Man

In article , [email] (Corvus Marinus) wrote:

As long as Tiffany is an airhead and Sandi is a bitch, they deserve each other!

Steve Cross

"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message news:[email]...

her

maybe

an

Well when Sandi said to Mr O'Neil "Technically all writing is plagarism because you are using words that already exist?"

She probably made that statement with the same disdainful scorn she's famous for what do you expect?

Even Mr O'Neil has limits.

said,

And

What is up with the Daria writer's and the Civil War?

Remember the 'Gettysbare' Sick Sad World episode in "Lucky Strike"?

Aunt Amy as mortal being. Hmmmmmm. I could get used to this...

Firah

On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 13:30:52 GMT, "Firah" wrote:

Maybe Ken Burns is a staff consultant. :-)

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid "Firah" did write in news:ga5T6.4382$[email], on the date of 05 Jun 2001:

A u t h e n t i c - C i v i l - W a r - R e c i p e - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

I have to admit, I wish they'd shown that scene.

He'd just better hope that Sandi doesn't go to Ms. Barch with her complaints...

All too well; the image is still burned into my retinas. Though I think "Lap Dancing Lap Dogs" may actually be worse, in its own way (still made me laugh!).

There are certain recurring tangential references on the show - I think Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge have been mentioned in three different episodes.

That was very interesting, I thought. It also occurs to me that Daria herself has been showing more and more 'mortal being' characteristics. Second- or third-season Aunt Amy wouldn't have hugged Helen and Rita, but second- or third-season Daria wouldn't have watched "Gone with the Wind" with Quinn, either. (And Quinn would never have asked her to, for that matter. They're all showing signs of humanity...)

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Corvus Marinus said:

It's very obvious that at least some of the _Daria_ writers were annoyed by the free pass given to Communist atrocities on some campuses, and have gone out of their way to mention them in passing.

They're all growing. Note that Daria very much impressed Amy this ep.

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

I wish they'd show the scene as well. However, I doubt Sandi would go to Ms. Barch with her complaints, since Ms. Barch is a Science teacher, not an English one.

Both Daria and Quinn are growing up slowly but surely. Also, now that Quinn's abandoned her practice of calling Daria anything but her sister, Quinn is no doubt finally free to express her sisterly love for Daria. As for Aunt Amy, I think part of it is because she didn't really want to ruin the peace between Helen and Rita. After all, she did come to Erin's wedding partly because she felt that since Helen and Rita could put aside their differences for one day, then she could take part as well.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

It's difficult to say what Ms. Barch would do. On the one hand, Sandi would be a woman complaining about a man. On the other hand, the _specific_ man she would be complaining about is the man Janet loves -- and knows to be anything _but_ nasty.

I said:

Come to think of it, this could precipitate a crisis in which Janet would either mature or regress. She'd have to face up to the cognitive dissonance between her theory that all men are pigs and her personal knowledge that at least one man isn't.

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 06 Jun 2001:

M a r k _ S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Although I was basically joking, I was really thinking that Sandi probably knows about Mr. O'Neill's weakness for Ms. Barch, and might try to twist that to her advantage.

Another thought that occurred to me - maybe Sandi got a D- on the paper and told Quinn it was an F? A D- is just embarrassing, but an F can be made into an injustice (and Quinn evidently bought into the idea that Mr. O'Neill shouldn't have flunked her!). Sandi's just twisted enough to pull something like that.

And Daria is reciprocating. Their conversation on the couch after the movie was very sweet, in its Dariaesque way (and Quinn actually figured out the joke).

Maybe - I had the impression that she went to the wedding partly because she suspected that Helen and Rita couldn't really put aside their differences, and she wanted a ringside seat for the fireworks. I think she took part in the group hug sincerely, which is why she was embarrassed - she cares about Helen and Rita more than she'd like to admit.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

True, and we know she told Quinn that she got a 956 on her PSTAT when we know she got a 920. Quinn, as we all know, got a 955. However, if she got a D- and told Quinn it was an F, we'd probably learn of it somehow.

It sure was. And it was all thanks to "Lucky Strike", of course.

Well, there could've been mixed motives on her part -- she could've wanted them to be able to put aside their differences, but felt they couldn't, and might as well have a ringside seat for the fireworks, just in case they quarrel -- which as we all know, they do. And yes, she probably did take part in that group hug sincerely.

Belle Book

She had a big smile on her face - maybe she'd been waiting for a moment like that all her life, and never thought it would happen.

M Man

M Man wrote:

Well, who can blame her for not thinking it would happen? Helen and Rita have been fighting for so long.

Belle Book

[email] (Corvus Marinus) wrote in message news:...

My favorite aspect of "Daria" is the Daria/Quinn relationship. It's evolved so nicely. I've been watching a bunch of past episodes, and it's fun to see them sort of in sequence to see the changes. Quinn is really going to miss Daria when she goes off to college. She's finally to the point that she likes having Daria for a sister, and the prospect of having the Fashion Club as her only sisterly figures must be a little harrowing. That's probably why she's building so many bridges with Daria and working so hard on the FC's interpersonal dynamics.

That's another thing that crops up as you watch a bunch of episodes at once. Helen is remarkably even-handed with her daughters. There's no imbalance of praise or guidance directed at either one. If she has a project or suggestion for Daria, you can be fairly certain that Quinn will be on the receiving end of the same (or something more targeted to Quinn or vice versa). Jake, I've noticed, has more of a rapport with Daria. It's not that he loves her more than Quinn; I think it's just that he identifies with Daria more. He knows Quinn has an easier time of it, plus he and Daria have more interests in common (the newspaper, for one).

You can really see the progress towards closure in this series. And I think it's interesting that Quinn is working the hardest of any of the characters to prepare for the future. (She's focused more on grades, she's committing more time to her family, she's a better friend to the Fashion Club.) By the time the series is over, I'd bet she could probably carry a series by herself. Not to detract from her sister, who's done that so well for the last five years, but Quinn's really come into her own, or at least she's trying to.

David, full of shameless Quinn-love

"David" wrote in message > > > >

her

her

the

maybe

might

think

I can put you down as a member of the 'Cult Of Quinn' .

At least outside of Lawndale.

:)

Firah

"Firah" kirjoitti:...

[cut the spoiler space, too off-topic to need one]

Some time ago I was thinking of setting up a site for "Quinn Fan Club" (QFC for short) or "Fan Club for Quinn" (FaCQ ;). The demands of QFC would be simple:

1. Replace the show name with (from the best to the worst): "Quinn", "Quinn and Fashion Club" or "Daria feat. Q U I N N !"

2. Limit the use of zoom: the camera must be close enough to show all the fashion-wise details of Quinn's clothing but far enough to not to show her pores.

3. Despite demand 2, QFC also requires a written assurance from all it's members, stating: "I hereby agree the fact that Quinn's pores are cute."

4. Build a separate entrance to the house for Daria, preferrably also an another kitchen, bathroom and so on.

5. Sign up Daria to the track team and make sure that the copy of the participant list that goes to the gym teacher strangely has a spill over the last name. With an extracurricular sport, no way Daria's college application would be rejected.

• Remove the redial button from the phones in the house.

[ There should be item 7 here, but apparently some of the new episodes made it obsolete. I don't know for sure as I haven't seen them. ]

8. A request for a date must be filed at least two weeks before the actual event and include a picture of the applicant, a picture of his car, the spec sheet of the car, a confirmation of a table reservation in a top-rated restaurant, a copy from the restaurant guide review page of the restaurant and a list of partners for the last three years.

• Get MTV produce Quinn Fashion Designer software suite.

10. Get a weekly SMS poll to determine which was Quinn's best side. Two groups would form, "lefties" and "righties". Riots and fights between the parties would thrive all across the US on mondays.

"Firah" wrote in message news:...

Cool! There's a cult? Does it have robes? Do they come in coral?

;-)

David

A cult? Do they call other "brother", like "Brother Ted"? :-)

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (David) did write in news:[email], on the date of 05 Jun 2001:

*A* cult? There's at least three - the Cult of Quinn, the Sandites (that's mine), and Stacy's Minions. (Strangely, no one to my knowledge has yet admitted to liking Tiffany. Hmmm...)

As far as robes go, I don't know about the Cult of Quinn, but the Sandites would never wear anything as geeky as a robe. Just because we're cultists doesn't mean we have to be unfashionable!

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Well, I've been lurking in this group for awhile. Never thought of posting anything here until [email] wrote:

Well, that would probably be me. I have a weakness for Asian girls. And while Tiffany may not be the brightest candle on the cake, I get the feeling that she is probably a very sweet young lady ( When he's not around her FC cohorts. ) Now, wouldn't it be weird, if she were the one to break out from the fashion club? After building up either Quinn, or Stacy as the one to stand up to Sandi, wouldn't it be a surprise if our little Tiff was the one to come out of left field, and show some back bone?? Not that I think it will happen, but it would be a shocker.

So, here I am, the world's first ( and quite possibly, only ) Tiffany fan.

I hope this doesn't put me in the same category as hairless cats.

Rick Alger
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Jenna & Barbara Bush~They're putting the "party" back into the
Republican Party
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

It's Time For A Story! http://community.webtv.net/inkorama/RicksStorytime

A Cartoon Carnival! http://community.webtv.net/daikaiju/RicksCartoonCarnival

Richard Alger wrote:

Well, I do have a liking for East Asian people and cultures as well, which is why I'm personally kind of sad that the only two Asian-Americans on the show (Tiffany and Ms. Li) aren't portrayed in a positive light (or at least one of them isn't done so). On the plus side, the two main African-American characters on the show, Jodie and Mack, are clearly portrayed in a positive light and that's a good thing.

We don't know all that much about Tiffany -- she may be as sweet away from the FC as you think she is. However, I think your dream about her is going to have to remain a dream.

Belle Book

Neither of them.

There's an Asian girl in Daria's classes who looks like she could be Tiffany's sister - though we've never heard of Tiffany having a sister. But she didn't show up on the MTV website in the background characters section of the Definitive Daria (formerly the Encyclopedia Sandonica, a name I liked better.)

She was seen walking the hall step-in-step with Joey in "Lucky Strike" (the scene in which Upchuck is peering through the keyhole) and I thought she might emerge as a rival for Joey's affections toward Quinn.

Not likely.

"We want someone to break his fingers!"

(Apparently the only idea of her own we've ever seen La Tiff come up with.)

M Man

Belle Book said:

You mean he won't get to fertlize her blossom?

<Tiffany> Are we in a News-Group about gar-den-ing now? </Tiffany>

Steve Cross

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Richard Alger) did write in news:8221-3B1FDC91-76@storefull- 156.iap.bryant.webtv.net, on the date of 07 Jun 2001:

No way! Hey, as a Hopeless Fan of Sandi, I totally understand. (My first post to this newsgroup was a defense of Sandi.) Besides, that means we can now add the fourth Fashion Club cult! And you get to be part of the lucky cult - Tiffany cultists look good in anything. ^_^

Cool username, by the way.

Yours, Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message

I am going to admit a shameful secret!

I think Tiffany's voice is very sexy.

Since Jane lost that low, slow, timbre to her voice after Season Two Tiffany has, by default, carried it on.

Now if the girl had a brain and a personality behind that voice I'd be a fan my self.

Firah

Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

No energy in the voice. Low-energy is not sexy.

M Man

"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...

Tiffany.

And

one

or

our

first

can

lucky

Sez you!

Back before they started making Tiffany's voice so methodically slow (Season Two and earlier) I thought her voice was very sexy.

She USED to have a personality (ala The Invitation and Malled) behind that voice.

Then she started being the 'stoopid one' in later episodes.

I'll say it again, if she had a personality and a brain behind that voice she would turn me on like a light switch.

Firah

Very little personality.

I think early on the writers didn't realize the full possibilities of the Fashion Club and made them generic "popular girls". It took a while before they all got distinctive personalities. Kevin and Brittany were intended to be the main secondary characters after the Morgendorffers and Lanes, but there isn't that much you can do with Kevvy and Brit, not as the focus of an episode, or even a B-plot.

So the FC got personalities - the bitch, the "stoopid" one, and the wimpy chick. Plus Quinn.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 08 Jun 2001:

I'm not sure whether they didn't realize the possibilities or just took their time developing the characters; most of the characters on the show have developed over the course of the series, but in every case the writers have built on the character rather than arbitrarily imposing new personality traits. As for Kevin and Brittany, I have to admit that they almost invariably make me laugh, so I don't mind seeing them as much as some people do, but even their characters have been developed to some degree; but the fourth season we'd seen a bit of their home lives and parents, and gotten at least an inkling of why they ended up like they did.

Another interesting thing about the writing is the way it indicates that some characters have deeper connections that we see on screen: for example, Jodie is Brittany's close friend, but we don't know why. There must be an interesting story behind that...

Note that Quinn herself was a one-note character when the show started, as were Helen, Jake, Daria, and Jane. Who would have predicted the fourth and fifth seasons from watching "Esteemsters"?

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

Yes. Kevin and Brittany are invariably good for a laugh (or several laughs), and we could use glimpses into why they are what they are, but they're not good for much else beyond comedy relief and the psychological glimpses.

Maybe we'll see why in the movie.

I wouldn't have, if I had seen "Esteemsters" before "Is It Fall Yet?", and the fourth season episodes first.

And as for the other girls of the Fashion Club -- Tiffany's the most one-note of the three. She's the "stoopid" one and probably always will be. Sandi's mostly the bitch, but "Fat Like Me" shows she has the potential to grow. And Stacy's not entirely the wimpy chick anymore, as we've all seen.

Belle Book

It's not just a question of being one-note. The FC girls were re-written, I think. They just don't talk or act the same in the very early episodes. I seem to remember reading an interview with Eichler in which he said Stacy and Tiffany would not appear in the opening theme (the volleyball sequence) if he had known they were to become major characters.

Definitely not!

M Man

M Man wrote:

Very interesting. I didn't know that. So Stacy and Tiffany were originally meant to be minor characters, but by the end of the second season got personalities of their own and became major characters.

And it's very possible Stacy will entirely grow out of the "wimpy chick" role she's had up till the fifth season. And I know there are quite a few Daria fans (including myself) who'd love to see that happen!

Belle Book

That would be great. She's 90% of the way there already. Much more than I'd ever hoped for.

Actually, season 5 has so far been almost everything I'd hoped. If I had to name three things I really wanted to see, they'd be:

1) Daria and Tom have a successful relationship. Before the break was a little rocky, but since the break, very good (except a little blip in Aunt Nauseam). I hope they have a happy ending, but so far, so good.

2) Stacy gets some spunk and a bigger role in the series. Hey? What more could I want?

3) A great fantasy episode. Technically, there hasn't been one, but "Life in the Past Lane" was so wonderfully off-beat it kind of makes up for that.

Some more minor things I'd hoped for that happened: the return of Amy Barksdale, Quinn drops the "she's my adopted cousin" act. Jane gets a new boyfriend (only for an episode, though. <Sigh>). Jane gets some cash for her art. Quinn becomes a serious student. Hmmm. Maybe not so minor.

Some things that haven't happened: Quinn gets a real boyfriend (flopped big time in OJAAT), more Jodie/Mack, a final appearance by Mrs Johansen (could still happen), Daria sees Link again, meeting Mack's father. One more *real* fantasy episode.

M Man

M Man wrote:

I'd say Mike Quinn would agree with you on that one!

My thoughts on your three wishes:

1. Well, they're having a successful relationship so far, and I'm definitely glad about that, as Tom's my second-favorite character (after Daria herself). However, we still have to wait until the end of the series to see what happens with them -- and "My Night with Daria" might provide a real rough spot -- or it might not.

• Yeah, who'd have imagined what happened to Stacy? Great!

• Well, maybe we can call "Life in the Past Lane" a semi-fantasy episode. It
• was * a fun episode.

Amy Barksdale's arrival was good. And I was so happy to see Quinn * finally * admit Daria was her sister -- and so surprised, too! Nice to see Jane get a boyfriend (even if it was only for one episode -- too bad the guy turned out to be such a jerk). And Quinn's becoming a more serious student was great too!

All of which could still happen, though Quinn gets points for trying in OJAAT.

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 09 Jun 2001: M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

I'd say that's true of Kevin, but not Brittany; she had a small but fairly important role in "Through A Lens Darkly," for instance, and it was intriguing to see her in the club in "Ill" (with black hair!). Then there was her unexpected gift for strategy and tactics in "The Daria Hunter" and her team-up with Jane in "Partner's Complaint." She's more complicated than she looks...

If not, somebody'll put it into a fanfic eventually. Heck, maybe I'll do it.

On the other hand, she embraced Stacy at the end of "Aunt Nauseum," which is more affection than she's shown toward anyone else - she was genuinely moved that Stacy was willing to give her the dress. So maybe there's hope for her yet.

And hope to see even more!

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

Actually, I did briefly consider that Brittany does have the potential for growth and depth of character, so I'll agree that Brittany's good for more than comedy relief and psychological glimpses. Kevin, of course, isn't good for anything more than (mostly) comedy relief.

You'll have to wait until the movie comes out before you can think of explaining Jodie's friendship with Brittany, for the answer might be in the movie. However, if it isn't, and you do write the fanfic, just remember to explain it in an original and plausible way (and by plausible, I mean true to the characters as they're portrayed on the show).

Well, she's mostly the "stoopid one", then, but there's hints that she could be a bit more than that.

We might see more growth in the movie.

Belle Book

Hmm. Since I sort of started this subthread, let me clarify that I don't think Kevin and Brittany are wasted characters. I just think you can't build a really good episode with one or both of them in the forefront (like "A Tree Grows in Lawndale". Blah!).

I wouldn't have missed Brittany's little pep-talk to Daria in "Through a Lens Darkly" for the world.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 10 Jun 2001:

[snippage]

Brittany pretty much nailed it in "I Don't" when she described him as "The King of the Jerks." It was gratifying to see his relentless boasting about being the QB finally backfire on him in "Lucky Strike." (I suppose he could be worse, though - he could be Tommy Sherman.)

Yup, that's why I said "If not" - I'm going to wait and see.

That's the trickiest part of writing a fanfic, as I've found (I've got a three-part story going). It's especially difficult when you're trying to introduce major changes in the characters' lives, but it's a fascinating challenge! Maybe I'll eventually work up the nerve to post my stuff and see what other people think...

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

True. Very true. I've seen enough of Tommy Sherman to think "Good riddance!" concerning him.

As long as you stay true to the characters, I think most people will like your fanfic.

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 11 Jun 2001:

Yep. I can't think of any other male character on the show who made as bad an impression as he did (and he had so little time to do it in!). Too bad he died before he got a chance to meet Val from "The Lost Girls" - they would have made the perfect couple.

Thanks! I appreciate the vote of confidence.

Yours, Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Corvus Marinus wrote:

They probably would have made the perfect couple, too -- the egotistical jerk football player who probably was that way in high school too, and the woman trying so desperately to relive her teenage years that she never realizes youth can be a state of mind as well as an actual physical state.

Well, I should know a little bit about people liking fanfics if you stay true to the characters -- I wrote "Inner Demons", and while it was probably hindered by my insecurity considering my knowledge of the characters at the time and the fact that it was my first fanfic that wasn't a WOEICS fanfic, I haven't heard anything about any flaws due to not being able to stay true to the portrayals of Daria, Tom, and Jane in that fanfic (even if Jane only appears in flashbacks). In fact, it's generally considered a good first effort. So I'm probably speaking from experience when I say that your fanfic will probably be liked if you stay true to the characters.

Belle Book

Firah wrote in message news:NjcU6.70911$[email]...

And

one

our

first

can

lucky

Tiffany

fan

Hang around a lot of stoners do you?

Unfortunately I work in a supermarket near a "community hospital" and some of the mentally impaired women sound like Sandi. One so much its creepy.

"Mark Whickman" wrote in message news:9ftqec$5m$[email]...

Tiffany.

or

back

Tiffany

In my formative years I did.

Thus the attraction.

Firah

Firah wrote in message news:1puU6.72518$[email]...

girls.

the

not

the

Quinn,

if

we

a

Goooooo gooooooo Maaaaaaaaannnnnn :)

I thought we were talking about the way Tiffany's voice sounds? Tiffany's voice DOES sound like she's "mentally impaired," if that's what you mean.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross wrote in message news:9fuhr9$hnk$[email]...

wrote:

some

Sorry, I meant tiff.

In article , "Firah" wrote:

The low pitch is sexy. The boring monotone isn't.

See my earlier post, suggesting how she could be transformed. Of course, it probably won't happen. In the off chance it does, it will be at the very end of the series, IE, the last movie. They'll probably be reluctant to give up Tiffany's status as the FC's cheif airhead.

Steve Cross

That's Good! I was a little worried. I don't mind being weird. I just don't wanna be too weird.

Cool! I always knew I'd come in handy some day. :) Now I can stand proud as the new Tiffany cult member.

Thanks, not too many people notice it. I think it shows my affection for things Asian.

Rick Alger
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Jenna & Barbara Bush~They're putting the "party" back into the
Republican Party
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

It's Time For A Story! http://community.webtv.net/inkorama/RicksStorytime

A Cartoon Carnival! http://community.webtv.net/daikaiju/RicksCartoonCarnival

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Richard Alger) did write in news:17015-3B230C3B-226@storefull- 157.iap.bryant.webtv.net, on the date of 09 Jun 2001:

Hmm..I'm not even sure if the concept "too weird" applies in this newsgroup. ^_^

I figured that was it, since I also have great affection for things Asian (especially Japanese, both pop culture and otherwise). It's probably just as well that I have limited funds at the moment, or I'd be filling my entire house with overpriced imported Gamera toys.

Yours, Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

In article , [email] (Richard Alger) wrote:

Me too. Something about that fine shiny black hair. Yum!

Okay, here's a scenario for ya. A friend of mine before I left Atlanta had a teenage son that reminds me of Tiffany. He was very quiet, and talk very slow-ly when he did talk. He wouldn't work. He'd already dropped out of high school. He showed no initiative whatever. Then one day his mom sent him to have a physical, and he was found to have some sort of hormone deficiency (not sexual, mind you) in his thyroid gland. I forget the diagnosis, but he started getting shots to compensate, and suddenly his brain starting hitting on all cylinders. he started showing up for work and getting a life.

Suppose that happened to Tiffany? It would be a shocker, but it would also, let's face it, make her a more interesting character.

She could still be the FC clown, but just a bit less pathetic.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross wrote in message news:9fuh5e$hnk$[email]...

a

high

(not

started

all

also,

Maybe she'd turn out to be an idiote savant.

David said:

Quinn realized that it's possible for serious ruptures to arise from trivial things, and it's occurred to her that she really loves both her sister and her friends.

This is Quinn, _maturing_.

Helen knows how much her mother's favoritism towards Rita hurt herself. She may or may not realize how much it also hurt _Rita_.

(Note: for all Helen's bitching, she has a successful career, a successful marriage, and two daughters that any mother could be proud of. Rita's not as fortunate, and maybe it's because things came too easy for her when Rita was growing up).

Daria and Jake deeply love one another, as was demonstred in "OHB." Too bad they're both too uncomfortable with emotional displays to admit it.

Which is, incidentally, _rare_ for a sitcom, and makes _Daria_ one of the best sitcoms ever made.

Yep.

I think that Quinn, by 20 or so, will be a fine woman.

Is it really any different with Quinn and Jake? Quinn's not so demonstrative either, but in "Jake of Hearts" she got so obsessed with her "medical studies" after Jake's heart attack she was blowing off phone calls.

M Man

MMan said:

That's a good point.

Mark Steese/Corvus Marinus wrote:

Well, in the first scene, the problems between Helen and Rita were somewhat distanced, so Quinn wasn't as upset then. Afterwards, of course, she'd be hearing the fighting, and naturally be scared. Who could blame her for that? Perhaps now that things are somewhat better at home, Quinn will have her old confidence back.

I agree, though the job must've been easier after Sandi argued with him over the idea of Stoker being the plagarist.

Oops. I did it again! Here's the rest of what I planned to say:

Tiffany would lose in just about any debate!

You might be the only person willing to openly befriend Sandi, if only because she's so prickly it's hard to like her.

The theme did run through very nicely. And as for Tom, he definitely was trying to help her -- too bad Daria didn't want to involve him in her family problems, but I can't say I entirely blame her.

Yeah -- because Daria and Quinn showed the three how destruictive the fight was!

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Belle Book) did write in news:[email], on the date of 05 Jun 2001: A u t h e n t i c - C i v i l - W a r - R e c i p e - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

If she could just get to debate against Kevin, she'd at least have a fighting chance. Actually, who'd win that debate might be a truly unresolvable question...

Well, I'm up to the challenge. Who wants to like these likeable people anyway? Anybody can do that! ^_^

Yup - it's not like the problem would have been solved by having Helen and Rita run off to a go-cart track. (I thought it was sweet that Amy gave Daria the clue that Tom was trying to help rather than impose; Daria respected Amy enough to listen without arguing, which isn't easy for her to do.)

That was a great scene - Daria and Quinn cooperated for the good of the family. Who'd have thought? (And then Daria actually watched "Gone with the Wind" with Quinn! As Tom said, "Now that scares me.")

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus has been known to be prickly at times

A draw by insufficient forces, as in chess :-)

Actually, I thought Stacy won that debate fair and square.

But the eventual outcome was OK, since I didn't think much of that dress.

Except Sandi.

You never know.

Amy'd whip both of them on a go-kart track, though.

She's *called* Amy for advice on at least one occasion. And I don't think Amy was *really* telling her something she didn't already know.

M Man

M Man wrote:

I'd definitely say that the outcome of a Tiffany-Kevin debate would be a draw!

Yes, Stacy definitely won the debate, since Tiffany wasn't good at debating at all.

I think Stacy looked better in the dress than Tiffany, though maybe not much better -- the spots didn't suit Tiffany at all, while the spots suited Stacy a bit better.

And that's why it's so hard to like Sandi.

I do think Amy would whip Rita on a go-kart track -- it would be harder to whip Helen, but maybe Amy would whip her too.

Probably not, deep down inside, but it was probably hard for Daria to * admit * that fact, so Amy had to get Daria to face that fact.

Belle Book

Belle Book wrote in message ...

(snip)

to

You get the feeling Daria and Amy have confided a lot ever since "I Don't." That's when Daria felt a connection with Amy, because I get the sense the two hadn't seen each other for years. Or it least it was the first time they'd talked as one adult to another.

Note also Amy bringing up "that guy you've been seeing" as though Daria's asked her for boyfriend advice since she started dating Tom.

admit *

As I've often said, Amy is what Daria CAN grow up to be. A smart, sexy, confident woman. Daria seems to understand Amy's travelled the road Daria's travelling...with the same view of life and interest in things outside the mainstream (example: Russian novels).

Let's hope Aunt Amy shows up for Daria's graduation.

Joe

Speaking of smart, sexy women....Mary Chapin Carpenter has a new CD out.

Joe Lancello wrote:

We saw one example of Daria's confiding in Amy, in "Through a Lens Darkly", so yes, there probably were others.

And Daria could've asked Amy for boyfriend advice since she started dating Tom. At the very least, Amy knew Daria was dating somebody, since she referred to Tom as that guy Daria had been seeing.

Yes, Aunt Amy does seem to be like Daria in some ways, although hopefully Daria can avoid arguing with Quinn when she's grown up, unlike Amy (who * did * argue with Helen and Rita).

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 06 Jun 2001: M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Yes, but in doing so she made it clear why it was a bad idea in the first place - there was no way a debate would lead to a solution acceptable to both Stacy and Tiffany, which was the only point in having one.

I just thought it was interesting to see Stacy and Tiffany is something other than their usual garb - this makes two episodes in a row for Stacy.

Well, exactly. If she went around liking people, she'd be likeable.

Hmm - Amy's good, but she doesn't have the cutthroat competitive spirit that Helen does. (You didn't see *Helen* checking into Rehab!) But I think we can fairly say that Rita would be toast.

I don't think so, either, but Daria has sometimes had to be prodded into acting on what she already knows (see "Sappy Anniversary," for instance. Too bad they never did a Jane-as-Jiminy Cricket alter ego!)

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Well, Stacy had reasons for wearing the dress. Tiffany apparently didn't have any.

It would be a start, anyway.

Amy drives a sports car, so I suspect she would quickly get the feel of handling a go-kart (if she hasn't driven them already). Helen is used to having others do the physical labor.

Yes, she does.

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 07 Jun 2001:

M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

On the other hand, Tiffany bought the dress innocently, and she obviously liked it, so solving the problem by awarding the dress to Stacy after the debate would have pissed her off royally, and the FC doesn't need any broken fingers at this point.

Helen drives, though, and she took over from Jake when he wasn't driving fast enough to suit her in "Psycho Therapy" (IIRC). When there's competition involved, she doesn't balk at putting forth effort. She might still lose, but she'd give Amy a run for her money.

(All right, I like Helen as much as I like Sandi. I'm hopeless!)

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus who probably spends way too much of his time defending cartoon characters

"Corvus Marinus" wrote in message news:[email]...

Hmmmm. I see a pattern here...

Firah

But if Stacy lost, she might put Sandi and/or Tiffany in a military locker and REALLY forget how to open it. :-)

Oh, she'd try all right.

In "Jake of Hearts" she tried her hand at non-trivial cooking to impress Jake's mother and failed miserably (she couldn't tell fish from meat!). Certainly she saw that as a competitive situation - who would take best care of Jake in a crisis? Mom or the wife?

Helen's just not good at hands-on stuff - that's what Marianne's for. Racing around a track takes more skill than driving down the freeway with a lead foot.

Hmmm. I don't really put them in the same category. I don't dislike Helen (or Amy). I just think Helen'd be completely out of her element in a go-kart, while Amy would enjoy it and do well.

No, just the wrong ones :-)

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 08 Jun 2001:

M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Tiffany might just stand there while Stacy put the straitjacket and chains on her, but Sandi *might* figure out that something was up.

But a lot less skill than cooking. Jake had no trouble handling the go- kart, and we all know how his cooking experiments end up; he's also shown incompetence in any number of other hands-on activities, e.g., installing a light fixture. Also note that Helen volunteered to go paintballing, and she chased Jake into the tunnels; and we know from "Lane Miserables" that she's a power walker (and she was able to catch up to and keep up with Jane while conversing with her!). Also, the hands-on stuff that Marianne does is sending faxes, etc., which Helen is perfectly capable of doing herself.

Well, the category I had in mind was...um..."'Daria' Characters that I think are sexy." *Blush* Amy's cute, but she's not my type.

Hmm..I still say that if Jake (and Jeffy!) can handle a go-kart, Helen can.

Bah! Next you'll be telling me you don't think Mrs. Bennett is attractive.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

I think he can tell meat from fish.

I think if Jane had TRIED to outrun her, she would have succeeded easily.

She's my type. I think. We don't know her THAT well.

In Jeffy's case, we know his father took him go-karting a lot when her was younger. And Jake drives a car like he's in a demolition derby (God-God-Dammit :-)), at least when not under the influence of tryptophane, so I don't think karting would hold any mysteries for him.

Hard to imagine someone with Amy's personality would own a sports car and not try to push its limits a few times. And not just in a straight line. I doubt Helen has ever done that, and certainly not recently.

I think Helen could beat *her* in a go-kart race. :-)

M Man

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (MMan37x) did write in news:[email], on the date of 09 Jun 2001: M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

Possibly; but driving a sports car and driving a go-kart aren't exactly the same, either.

Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus (who *definitely* spends way too much of his time defending cartoon characters)

Hey! She's a Fuzzy-Wuzzy Wee Bits collector. If they're anything like Beanie Babies, she's had to fight through hordes of other collectors, all of them with blood in their eyes. I don't think a go-kart race would hold much terror after that! ^_^

*Exactly* the same? Of course not. Closer than a lot of things. A lot of race-car drivers started out as children racing go-karts. Michael Schumacher (the Foruma One defending champ and current leader) was beating adults in go-kart races at the age of six..

So all Helen has to do is carry some Fizzy Wuzzy Wee Bits with her. If Bennett is winning or even close, all Helen has to do is toss a Fuzzy Wuzzy Wee Bit out and Bennett will turn around and/or stop to get it. Helen gains several laps in the meantime. This strategy would not work on Amy.

:-)

M Man

Corvus Marinus said:

Translating from the stylized rendering, Helen is a beautiful, brilliant, vibrant, and warm woman, and it is very easy to see why Jake is still very much attracted to her. Sandi ... I don't think I'd find her attractive in real life, and that's not because she's young (I think Quinn and Stacy are attractive, for instance). Tiffany is _beautiful_, but the personality would kill it for me, even the one she'd have when she was older (in fact, I think she'd be far nastier at 20 or 30).

I think Amy's attractive but a bit too distant, a bit too cold. It's interesting that we have, in three appearances to date, never heard any mention of her having a husband, boyfriend, or even a _friend_. Though she is nice to her nieces. Maybe at some point life scarred her badly, and ever since then she's avoided getting close to people?

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...

much

life,

attractive, for

me,

mention

to

then

I think this illustrates what would have happened if the whole Tom/Jane/Daria thing never happened.

Amy never had a chance to get close to anyone during her teenage years and that carried over into adult life.

Daria was heading down that road.

Aesthetically it's as pure as you can get as far as being independent and self sufficient but there is always that dark side.

The ability not to need, or reach out, to ANYONE.

Amy is the adult incarnation of the Season One Daria. I do feel that Daria is going to avoid the lonely pitfalls that Aunt Amy fell into.

She is going to learn how to care about someone besides her self, in spite of her self, and beyond her self.

Firah

Firah wrote:

Aunt Amy appears to be what Daria would've been if she hadn't met either Jane or Tom. Especially Tom, it appears. And I don't think anyone could've anticipated this when he first appeared in "Jane's Addition".

Belle Book

Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in news:[email], on the date of 09 Jun 2001:

M a r k - S t e e s e ' s - U n p l a g i a r i z e d - S P O I L E R - S P A C E

She's a damn cute drawing, too.

Oddly enough, while I would call them cute, I don't find them attractive. I think part of my attraction to Sandi comes from identifying with her so strongly.

Again, I'd call her cute, but not beautiful.

Maybe, although every time they've shown her she's evidently been happy with her life, and her vacation in Hawaii (mentioned in "Through A Lens Darkly") sounded like fun. I don't think they've shown any indication that she isn't getting exactly what she wants out of life.

-Mark Steese a/k/a Corvus Marinus

Everyone seem to think Tiffany is cute. I think she's vapid-looking and at least borderline scrawny.

Now I'm going to end up with broken fingers, right? :-)

We've never heard of what she does to afford all this. Something she can walk away from at a moment's notice at Daria's request just to break up her sisters' fights? Maybe Amy was married and got a huge divorce settlement? And doesn't have to work?

Ah, speculation.

M Man

Tiffany said:

Well, see, in terms of sheer physical attractiveness, she's beautiful. Her _personality_ makes her vapid -- the stupid, sullen look she usually wears, her slow, stupid voice -- these spoil it, for someone not only looking to "fertilize her bloom.".

Someone with Tiffany's looks and Daria's, Jane's, or even Quinn's personality would be very hard to resist.

Prob'ly.

And if Sandi ever dropped the scowl and the personality that goes with it, she'd be incredibly gorgeous. Didn't Helen say something to her in "Of Human Bonding" about those nasty little lines around her eyes and mouth?

M Man

Quinn's been acting weird ever since "One J at a Time". (Or is it "Esteemsters"? Whatever.)

In OJAAT her steady-boyfriend-attempts so discombobulated her she couldn't see through Daria's rather broad hints ("I go to all of Tom's luge races") that she (Daria) was only kidding about spending 24 hours a day together and the like.

In LITFL Quinn was pretty much operating at the Tiffany-level, mirroring whatever Tiffany did in the disappearing-Upchuck scene.

You *really* thought she spilled that drink accidentally, huh? Oh, Firah, you are so naive! :-)

<Sigh> She's sooo cute!

Actually, I had the feeling this episode was written before LITFL. Stacy's not exactly back to her pre-FLM ways (she didn't collapse into tears) but she didn't seem very, uh, feisty.

Or maybe she really *has* fallen for Upchuck and is not quite herself?

It took the staff almost four seasons to figure out that the FC is way more interesting than Kevvy and Brit.

I damn glad I'm not their brother.

You just did.

Who's counting? :-)

M Man

When Tiffany hugged her back, it was heartwarming to see Tiffany caring about something besides her own face in the mir-ror.

Stacy's growing, which is interesting to watch.

This ep, like several others this season, seamlessly weaves together a FC plot with a Daria-centered plot. Since Quinn operates in both worlds, she becomes dramatically central to the show. When I first started watching (3rd season), I thought Quinn was just a foil to Daria. Wrong!

Steve Cross

Quinn absolutely hated what Joyce and Rita were doing, and what it was doing to everyone around them. Even by the 'Dracula' conversation, she couldn't stand anyone arguing about anything. She didn't cave, she just wasn't going to argue, period.

There are some questions about Stacy backsliding a little in this episode, but note that she was willing to fight,figuratively speaking (and maybe not so figuratively, depending on how accidental the drink spilling was) to be the one wearing the dress. Stacy v.1 would have burst into tears, run off, and gone home to change dresses.

What I liked:

How the basic theme of the argument is handled. This was basically a study in how destructive the 40-year feud was, not so much to Joyce and Rita, but to everyone around them, Jake, Daria, Quinn, even Amy and Erin.

How Quinn picked up Daria's cue immediately, when Daria started mimicking Helen. It did take her a beat a little later to work out Daria's promise, but she still worked it out fast enough.

What I only sorta liked:

Tom is far too understanding. I get that he already understood, more or less, what was freaking Daria, and that it wasn't him. Still...

What went right by me at first: Jane wasn't even in this ep was she? Daria mentioned her, but no Lane? Of course, last ep was all about Jane (except that we all focused on Stacy).

"William George Ferguson" wrote in message news:[email]...

{snippage}

feud

I think you meant Helen?

DARIA: Your a showoff and a know it all

QUINN: You just hide in your room like a kermit.

LOL

That was classic. Although I think around the end of that argument Quinn and Daria were *kind of* taking digs at each other.

Agreed!

Now that Amy has been dethroned as the Saint-In-Residence by the Daria writers are they trying to give this to title to Tom?

Well Jane did appear once with Daria at Lawndale High.

I guess it was that 'bitching session' Daria mentioned she had added to her calendar when speaking to Tom...before she shut the door in his face.

Firah

Best scene in the episode.

Hmmm. I never remember Amy as a saint. More like a grown-up Daria with the rough edges removed. I thought Amy somewhat soft-pedalled her usual sarcasm and biting wit in this episode.

And I don't suppose the writers will ever convince YOU that Tom is a saint. :-)

Actually, I pretty well understand Tom's thinking in this episode. If his own homelife is as "repressed" as he says, he would clearly understand why Daria was "freaking" with loud arguments taking place in her house, and make allowances. He'd be pretty upset if there were loud arguments in his family.

M Man

M Man wrote:

That was a great one! Daria and Quinn's mirroring the primary argument was just what was needed to cause Helen, Rita, and Amy to see what their feud was doing to the girls and make up.

Yes, in part because she was trying to be a peacemaker at Daria's request. Unfortunately, she got sucked into taking part and airing out her own problems.

And we got a hint of possible problems in "Is It Fall Yet?", what with Elsie's sarcastic attitude and Tom's brief bickering with her. Also, Tom did hear the bickering in Daria's house -- he'd have to be heartless not to want to help Daria in that situation.

Belle Book

MMan said:

Right. We actually don't know that she's better than Daria, just more mature. It may well be that the mature Daria will be wiser than Amy. It's quite likely she'll be happier, since Daria seems to be handling her relationship with her family better than Amy did.

own

Tom was upset that Daria was shutting him out, not that she was "freaking," agreed.

However, in Amy's defense, Daria's never had to deal with two sisters bickering with each other (as well as her).

I think he was only mildly upset about being "shut out". Tom understands Daria's position because he isn't used to loud arguments himself. If he came from a family that engaged in constant loud arguments, he probably wouldn't understand what was bothering Daria.

I think this is also one of problems Tom had with Jane - blowups like the Gummi Bear fight and the "freaky accusations" phone call. Even when Tom himself blew up over the Jane-Cam incident, he left after a few words rather than staying and arguing.

M Man