Is Daria afraid of sex or is she afraid of getting close?
If Daria is afraid of getting close, then what caused it? I don't see anything in Daria's life that made her afraid of close relationships -- just that she might, or might not, be leery of getting close.
Does Daria have the hots for Tom? Really. I don't see any sign at all that Daria thinks much about him, or dreams about him, or wants to kiss him or anything more than just talk about books with him. If Tom is just a "Library date," then why all this fuss about going to bed with him in the first place?
Why is Quinn so gooky about whether Daria slept with Tom? Doesn't Quinn get hots for anyone either? All I've ever seen Quinn do, is to talk about social stuff and treat guys like Ken dolls with money. So if Quinn is oblivious to sex, why did she plug her ears? If she isn't oblivious, then where in any episode, does Quinn actually get the real hots for anyone? Why aren't her parents even the least bit worried about her intensely active multiple-partnered social life?
How did either one of these girls spring forth from Helen's loins, given that woman's obvious libido?
Off hand, probably a combination of parental distance from her with her observation of how shallow and farcical the relationships of many other people around her are, and her own sense of alienation owing to her superior intelligence.
Daria definitely "has the hots for Tom." Recall _Dye Dye My Darling_ and _Is It Fall Yet_. She likes being with him, she likes hugging him and kissing him, and possibly even going farther with him (they wouldn't show that on TV).
However, Daria's aware that if she loses her virginity to him, there is no way that she can tell herself that her feelings for him are something she can easily manage. If she does this, then the relationship becomes undeniably "more serious" in scary ways.
Once that happens, she can no longer pretend to herself that he's just an amusing companion. Once that happens, if they then break up she's failed in a more fundamental way. Once that happens, they're on a path that raises scary questions of permanancy and non-permanency -- either is scary: permanency leads to marriage and children; non-permanency would lead the idealistic Daria to despise herself and feel like a failure. Remember -- Daria is a _prude_.
Quinn is possibly even more of a prude than Daria. She is _not_ really emotionally or sexually attracted to any of her "dates," the whole point of dating them is to show them off and gain social status. Quinn is almost certainly not emotionally ready for a real relationship, and she doesn't understand real relationship.
Everyone keeps saying that, and I don't see it. Personaly I think she has often seemed that way because watching others be sexual reminds her that she has (or had) no close boyfriend of her own, so she made fun of them. She's embarased about her own body and sexuality, which is very different from being a 'prude' who disaproves of those things.
Except that she _has_ a boyfriend, and has had for around nine months her-universe time by now. I think that Daria's not insanely prudish, but she's definitely someone who is not comfortable with open displays of sexuality, and probably never will be. She'll be able to open up to someone she loves, eventually -- maybe even Tom -- but she's about as prudish as someone _can_ be while still being sane.
Actually, Quinn's flirting techniques are not really sexual come-ons. I think that's why she's not leaving a trail of angry boys in her wake, a common subject of fanfics (most notably "So Turns the Wheel" and "Sins of the Past", in which Quinn's the victim of revenge-rapes).
Which is not to say some (most, all) of her dates wouldn't dearly love to talk her into bed. Just that she's not a prick-tease so they don't feel led on.
Although she then called Tiffany, who was ordering dessert, so Quinn then almost certainly did interrupt someone who was dating (even by Quinn's standards).
I'd tend to agree that her own sense of alienation and her feelings about the relationships of others are what causes her to be afraid of emotional intimacy as well as sexual intimacy.
Don't forget that they kissed in "The Story of D" as well.
I'd tend to agree with you about her reasons for not wanting to go all the way with Tom.
That's why she failed in "One J At A Time" -- she wasn't ready emotionally ready for a real relationship, and she doesn't understand a real relationship (at least Daria's farther along on both counts than Quinn is).
Proof that Quinn knows next to nothing about what a real relationship's about.
I wish someone would let Quinn know that Daria never had sex with Tom, but I doubt that will happen for quite a while.
She noticed that Daria and Tom were compatible in "Is It Fall Yet?", so she'd probably know by now that they have feelings for each other. And I'd bet she's reminded of how she fell for David in "Is It Fall Yet?" when she wishes someone really loved her.
I don't know if Daria convinced Jodie that it wasn't so, but if she did convince Jodie, that's good. And I'd definitely agree -- people are so willing to believe bad things aobut a person, even if it isn't true at all!
But maturing takes time, and Quinn's defintely got a ways to go with maturity.
But who thought it was a bad thing? Daria may not appreciate Kevin and Brittany and Upchuck's wink-wink brand of congratulations, but congratulations they were.
Jodie didn't consider it a bad thing. And when Daria told her she hadn't had sex with Tom, Jodie suggested Daria should want to by now. Probably that influenced Daria into agreeing to schedule a night, though she later backed down.
Since "Lucky Strike" she's been going backwards :-(
well, in this case, "bad" might not mean "awful" or "evil", but "naughty naughty! ::wink wink::". in that case, i would think daria would be humiliated that they now think of her that way (it makes her the same as them, not in control, etc).
and remember that just because a few main characters were wink-wink congratulating her, it doesn't mean that the rest of lawndale high wouldn't think "slut!"
Very insightful. Daria is most definitely proud, and this strikes at her pride.
It's notable that the characters who were congratulating her were all people who knew her well enough to know that she is most definitely _not_ a slut.
Could be. I don't think Daria has a "naughty naughty! ::wink wink::" view of sex anyway, so she's going to find Kev-Brit's and Upchuck's type of talk annoying anyway.
I wonder how she would have reacted to them if she actually *had* "done it" with Tom. Remember, she and Tom were being congratulated for something they *didn't do*.
Maybe the humiliating part was realizing she and Tom had re-enacted "Wake Up, Little Susie" and gotten the predictable reaction.
Well, we didn't *see* anyone thinking or calling her "slut". The whole rumor was about her having sex with a steady boyfriend of fairly long standing so that's unlikely. At any rate, as I said, nothing of the sort was shown.
Besides, her more or less immediate reaction to the rumor was to tell Tom she was now "ready". Not the reaction of someone afraid of being called a "slut".
M Man
Wake up little Susie, wake up. Wake up little Susie, wake up. The movie wasn't so hot, it didn't have much of a plot We fell asleep, out goose is cooked, our reputation's shot Wake up little Susie, wake up little Susie
What are you gonna tell your mama, what you gonna tell your pa What are you gonna tell your friends when they say "ooo la la!" Wake up little Susie, wake up little Susie
Well I told your mama that you'd be back by ten Now, Susie baby, looks like we goofed again Wake up little Susie, wake up little Susie, we gotta go home
Wake up little Susie, wake up. Wake up little Susie, wake up. The bullfrog's sound asleep, wake up little Susie and weep It's four o'clock and we're in trouble deep Wake up little Susie, wake up little Susie
I think she sees it as mostly farcical, and occasionally, hopefully, deep and scary and perhaps wonderful. But to the extent that she sees it as a good thing, she probably also sees it as a rather sacred and private thing. So she'd be offended either way.
Absolutely.
Incidentally, note her reaction to Jodie. She wasn't offended at Jodie's belief that she'd had sex, but she did point out (by turning it around) that if she _had_ had sex, she would consider it to be something private.
I think she would have been even more embarassed, because she'd be wondering if she really _was_ now "a woman _just like Brittany_ (which would NOT be a good thing, from her POV). But at least she would have actually made love to Tom, whereas in the actual case she had to endure the humiliation without the pleasure.
Hey, she'd already had the "embarassment" part of it.
Or so she thought.
She wound up learning that far greater levels of embarassment were possible :)
She *has* kissed him before. More than once. Considering her personality, I would think that is a big sign that Daria cares a lot for Tom, especially considering all of the fuss. I can't see her just sleeping with just a guy friend. After all, there's many guys to discuss books with, but only a few to date and even fewer to sleep with.
I think the problem comes from trying to graft three-dimensional personalities onto what were originally two-dimensional characters. Daria has always existed in a sexless, hormoneless world and it would have been a very tricky task to convince us that she's really getting turned on by the occasional G-rated kisses she shares with Tom.
It was pretty brave of the show to take on this topic, I suppose, but I don't see how they could really pull it off. From the beginning, they would have to convince us that Daria has an actual female body and that she's having physical reactions to her boyfriend.
Tom's reactions have been fairly plausible. We now hear that at some point he made a move on Daria, but that she talked him into backing off, and he's still eager once she changes her mind. Except for the fact that he's too incredibly perfect and understanding, he at least seems to have some real guy emotions beneath the surface. (He even joked about how he wished the rumor would get circulated around his school :-)
I never bought the "passion" behind Daria and Tom's first kiss. It was a cool episode, but it was pure TV cliche all the way. They argue about how what they're doing is wrong, but then they're so passionate that they jump right back into each other's arms? I liked it, but I never bought it.
I don't know how the show's creators could have convinced me that Daria might actually consider having sex. I suspect that animating the kissing scenes a little differently might have helped. A possible reaction to learning the joys of making out could well be that Daria wants to be kissing Tom all the time!
Wow, imagine if they had animated the kisses to make them a little more realistic, to show Daria actually getting excited by the whole thing... She could have even complained that she felt like she was turning into Brittany (enjoying making out and all).
But, after all, it's a cartoon. And I'm glad to see it's still funny. But the comedy (and everything else) does occasionally stop dead when it tries to be too meaningful. Or when it starts treading on eggshells because Mack or Jodie are onscreen. But that's a separate topic.
I'm sorry ... exactly how are Daria and Tom any more "two-dimensional," in the dramatic sense, than any other fictional characters?
??? - How so? Several characters on the show are explicitly having sex, and Daria just confronted the issue of whether or not she should have sex with Tom.
What is a "G-rated kiss" and how does it differ from some other kind?
How were the kisses in, say DDMD or IIFY particularly "G-rated?"
Finally, are you taking into account that Daria and Tom are presumably doing things, including kissing, off-camera? And that since the show is not meant to be one prolonged makeout sequence, most of this cannot be shown?
Why would we assume that she _doesn't_ have "an actual female body?" Because it's a cartoon?
Do you imagine that the characters on live-action shows have "actual bodies?" FYI, the people whom you see portraying the characters are _not_ the characters, they are _actors_. The "actual bodies" of these characters exist only in their fictional worlds -- just as does Daria's.
Not "incredibly" so. But _notably_ so.
Why not? There was massive foreshadowing. Daria and Tom liked each other from the start -- Daria's hostility was based at first on jealousy that Jane had a boyfriend and that this boyfriend was competing for her attention, and then on fear that she was falling for him.
Why, do you envision Daria remaining a virgin for the rest of her life? If so, you are seriously confusing an unwillingness to display emotion with a lack of passion.
In the scenes where they do kiss, Daria seems enthusiastic enough to me.
There can only be so many scenes _shown_, or this would turn into Lawndale Undressed. But we can safely assume that Daria kisses Tom a lot more than is shown.
They show her hugging him back and looking flushed. That's about as much emotional display as you can expect from someone as intensely private as Daria.
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...
the
and
Tom.
the
doing
meant to
would
Because
bodies?"
exist
how
jump
from
had a
then on
so,
lack of
kissing
is
Daria.
By the way, just to be clear: I love the show Daria. I still stand by my original post. (How can I not, since it's all phrased as "*I* never bought into XXX" or "*I* would like to see YYY?")
I may think there are certain topics that it (consistently) stumbles on, but I love the show. I'll miss it when it's gone.
Do you understand Fiction and how it is written? Can you analyze a literary character? The writer necessarily leaves out some real world elements in order to emphasize character elements more relevant to the story he/she wishes to tell. "Daria" writers leave out more than most other writers do. This does not make "Daria" a poorer show -- it's just a writing strategy.
Writers created Daria as a combination of complementary qualities, and put those qualities into conflict with the primarily social happenings around her. One-note characters like this tend to react in almost the same way to everything. Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck act crazy and jump around whether it's Elmer Fudd or a Nazi bomber chasing them. Daria tends to make cynical comments and then withdraw; whether it's Quinn, her parents, or someone at school. That's two-dimensional.
Never mind the next six-page character analysis. Let's just say I agree with Mister Gates.
You are just being disingenuous. It's long past time for you to look that word up in the Dictionary.
"Daria" is less sexual than just about anything else on TV, with the exception of Bugs Bunny. The show is almost completely un- sexual in any contemporary sense. "Archie" comics contain more sexual content.
On second thought, Daria is even less sexual than Bugs Bunny. Bugs at least, has a fuzzy tail.
Jesus Christ on a rubber crutch, Jordan. Have you ever been kissed by a maiden aunt? Have you ever been out on a date with a girl who felt she "had" to let you kiss her goodnight, and you didn't pick up the hint? Do you understand what Tony Curtis meant, when he said that Kissing Marilyn Monroe was like Kissing Hitler? Whatever Daria was or was not doing, she wasn't kissing Tom back in any normal sense of the term that we all have come to understand.
You would make a great Secretary of Energy in the Bush Administration. (The North Pole is surrounded by open water for the first time in 20 Million years? How does THAT prove global warming...?)
This might be fun as speculation, but it doesn't hold water as a sincere explanation of anything. The writers have given us absolutely NO HINT that Daria and Tom are doing anything off camera but reading books.
"... one prolonged makeout sequence?" Strawman, Jordan. We all deserve better.
NOTE for the logically impaired: "Strawman" is the informal name of a neat way to argue fallaciously, where the respondent sets up an extreme example of something the speaker never meant, and argues against that ridiculous example, instead of dealing with the idea that the original speaker actually proposed. Parents of teenagers do this all the time.
In this case, Jordan (a bright guy who knows better) is proposing that writers can either choose to present Daria the way they do, or they can choose to present Daria as the star of an ongoing porn cartoon. There is a middle ground, which Jordan apparently doesn't want to deal with.
Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed on Rubber Crutches, Jordan.
.... Artists draw "Daria" in a very stereotyped, over-simplified animation style. She is given spaghetti legs, no boobs, horn-rim glasses, an unchanging, drab wardrobe, and boots. The 'Daria' staff presents absolutely no visual clues here at all, that they intend us to view Daria as posessing a normal teenage female body, or the emotional drives that go with it.
If Daria is to have a relationship, then 'Daria' writers are obligated to portray her as having some of the emotional attributes that they have minimized in the past. At the very, very least; they should have had her candidly express her PHYSICAL Attraction to Tom in some way, and put a carnation in her jacket buttonhole.
Foreshadowing is a nice, big word. At best, your foreshadowing was ambiguous, good enough to make Tom a Library friend; but not a boy friend.
Strawman, once again. My very goodness, big J. Crutch analogies fail me.
Are you proposing that any Highschool female who has not had sex by her Senior year, is likely to remain a Virgin all her life?
Daria might very will be 'unwilling' to display emotion that she feels. This is still a work of fiction, and there are some rules about creating fiction. The writers need to find some way within the story to show that Daria is indeed experiencing passion that she can't express. I don't see that they have.
Not to me by a long way.
The usual TeeVee convention is as follows: Fred Astaire pulls a petulant Ginger Rogers toward him. Fred bends over quickly but slows slightly as he gently kisses her. Fred holds the kiss just a fraction past the 'friendly goodnight' zone, defined in all Kissology textbooks. Ginger relaxes after precisely one and a half seconds; moves her arm behind the nape of Fred's neck, and pulls him even closer. The fire in the fireplace flares up as the screen fades to black.
Compared to text fiction, yes, because it is hard for a TV show to "get into a character's head" with the ease that a writer of text fiction can with a simple cut to the character's thoughts.
(you can do voiceovers or soliloquies in video drama, but this is clumsy and besides the total workable story length is much shorter, so this is not as practical a technique).
Compared to other TV shows? Not at all, especially given the limitation that _Daria_ works within a 20-minute time limit for most episodes.
Except that Daria does _not_ do this all the time -- case in point, the most recent episodes, in which Daria confronted first the reality of her upcoming transition into college, and then the implications of a sexual relationship. In fact, in _both_ these episodes, her emotional strategy miscarried, with bad results to her that she noticed and visibly learned from. Furthermore, similar "tendencies" exist in both characters from other fictions, and in real people.
Tom.
"Sexless?" Or "disingenuous?" I'm well aware what both mena.
Explain, specifically, what sexual content _should_ be present, which you find absent?
Except that this is _not_ how Daria kisses Tom in either DDMD or IIFY. Watch your tapes of them, if you have them. Or if you've never seen the eps, ask someone who has.
Actually, in that specific instance, I don't have a clue as to what he meant, as Marilyn Monroe had notoriously strong sexual drives.
I'm not sure what you mean. Daria and Tom are hugging each other passionately, and their lips are together in a position where we can assume that they are kissing. The "camera angle" makes it impossible to tell whether they are are Frenching, but one can assume that they are in at least some of them.
If you mean the kiss at the end of MNAD, consider the context. Tom had to be careful not to make it an aggressively sexual kiss, because he was trying to emphasize that he was NOT going to pressure her into having sex; Daria was hesitant because she'd just offered to break up with him.
What exactly do Daria and Tom have to do, _onscreen_, to prove that they really care about each other? Do we need to see him groping her tits or ass? And why?
And the fact that you just _dodged the question_ is noted, and taken as an admission that you can't explain your case very well.
to
The fact that, in MNAD, Tom makes reference to Daria making an earlier decision not to go all the way, is a very strong implication that they have gone _part_ of the way before. It's not probable that Tom and Daria were sitting quietly one day and Tom just said, "So, shall we have full genital intercourse?" It's more likely that they were making out, and things were getting heavier, and at some point Daria said "No."
Because _any_ work of fiction can only display a limited slice of the characters' lives, one must _always_ "speculate" about events occurring off-camera. The style of this show is such that we often don't find out what happened until later -- for instance, it's only this ep that we found out for sure that, not only didn't Daria go all the way with Tom, Jane didn't either. Note that we _also_ found out that two other teenaged couples most definitely DID.
Well, there actually _was_ a "prolonged makeout sequence" at the end of IIFY. It took place in Tom's parked car.
We don't know exactly how far they went on that occasion, but since they were in that car a long time, and the windows were steaming up, we can logically presume that they were not just reading books to each other.
What "middle ground" are _you_ assuming, and how is it consistent with what has been presented in the show?
Maybe the point here is that someone who doesn't correspond to current stereotypes of female attractiveness can still have both beauty and passion? Ya think, since attacking such stereotypes has been a major theme of several episodes?
I'll also point out that a lot of this isn't Daria's anatomy, but a combination of artistic style and her fashion choices. For instance, _all_ characters on the show (except the cameos) are drawn unrealistically skinny. And Daria most definitely has breasts -- remember "Quinn the Brain" ... ? She is capable of looking sexy when she wants to -- SHE JUST DOESN'T WANT TO.
She's displayed these "emotional drives" from the _very first two seasons_ --- all the way back in "ILL", "Road Worriers", and "Pierce Me." You simply haven't been paying attention -- are you fooled by the fact that we haven't seen a Daria nude scene yet?
Which they _didn't_ "minimize." Instead, they quite skillfully depicted a character who _represses_ her own desires, _because she is afraid of being hurt_. Which you don't seem to get, though practically everyone else on this newsgroup, _and_ the Paperpusher's, seems to have no problem grasping.
???
from
a
on
"Ambiguous?" Actually, the attraction was quite obvious from "I Loathe a Parade" on, which was about midway through Tom and Jane's relationship. It was commented on extensively, _on this group_, back then.
so,
of
No.
I'm not.
Why do you require some sort of special "convincing" to believe that Daria might be willing to have sex?
Because she dresses dumpy?
Reality check: girls who dress like that can be passionate, too. They just aren't as willing to advertise it to the world.
... because you apparently didn't understand _anything_ that happpened in Ill, Road Worriers, Pierce Me, Lane Miserables, Jane's Addition, I Loathe a Parade, Dye Dye My Darling, _Is It Fall Yet_, or the most recent ep. Or maybe because you can't believe that a girl could be passionate unless she wears tight clothes and is grabbing someone's crotch on camera?
_Daria_ doesn't work by the same visual rules as a porno movie. It doesn't even work by the same visual rules as _Ally McBeal_. Its conventions deliberately hearken back to 19th century novels, as should be _obvious_ from several little "Easter Eggs" the writers planted. I suspect that everyone else on this group knows _exactly_ what I mean :)
You're right.
They never did _precisely_ that.
They did ALMOST precisely that at the end of _Is It Fall Yet_, but apparently you didn't grasp what happened because they didn't _show_ Daria and Tom groping each other.
LR > > Do you understand Fiction and how it is written?
JB > Yes.
JB > In fact, I write it.
oooooooooh. Wadda straight line. I am staring up at the ceiling, crossing my eyes and biting my tongue.
**
Here's the deal. I don't care that you have your own ideas -- about Daria, guns, Libertarians, or anything. I *do* care, that you don't tolerate anyone else's ideas, that your responses to their posts consistantly assume arguments that those original posters didn't make -- and when backed into a corner, you often disparage the original poster's knowledge of the program or his/her innate intelligence in the first place, and then you pull rank on them. You do all this without using a four-letter word, so everybody here thinks you're civilized.
"Daria" hasn't got far to go, now. I have a Real Life, but I will still miss the show a lot when it's gone. In addition; I smell a skunk in the henhouse -- either the producer or MTV. Somebody is killing Daria when they don't have a good reason to do so. The lame excuse posted in this group -- well, words fail me for once.
... so, for good or ill, you don't have to put up with me for too much longer. Things will go better for both of us if you try, just once a day, to extend a compliment to someone with whom you disagree, and to retire your resident StrawMan.
The real long-term issue, is to uncover the real story behind MTV's killing "Daria," and reveal the insultingly shallow cover story floated to Daria fans for what it is.
* * * *
Here's my second deal. You (or MsGeek) find out the real story and post the real details here, and I'll go away. My caution, though; is that I will not buy that the producer just got tired or wants to be with his family. I will not buy, that everybody ran out of ideas, or that Daria is not a ratings success. In fact, the story needs to explain in extended, boring, lividly embarrassing detail; why a for-profit Cable Channel (MTV) would cancel a program that indeed IS a ratings success.
You do realize that _you_, not I, originally brought up these topics, don't you?
Sure I do. I just don't always _agree_ with them, which is different. I refuse to be Stacy Rowe.
Actually, in that exchange, you were the one who was intimating that I had no idea of how fiction was written.
I didn't denigrate your intelligence, etc. I answered your argument point-by-point. Which is hardly "uncivilized," but rather the hallmark of reasonable debate.
I'm sorry if this bothers you, but I'm not going to agree with you just to make you happy. The other, long-time posters on this board don't seem to mind that I don't agree with them 100% of the time, and I'm not about to change on this.
What do you believe is the real reason why someone is cancelling the show?
If you ask me, it's because the show mocks many things which MTV holds sacred, particularly the cultural assumptions underlying many of their other shows. It may also have offended specific Sacred Cows, such as the person who "Val" was a parody of.
I remember over a decade ago when _Just Say Julie_ apparently got cancelled because Julie Brown was a bit too cutting in her satires of certain VIP's, particularly Madonna. Julie Brown, too, has a moral and cultural sensibility very much at odds with our celebrity culture.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the real story," actually. I assume that it was unpopularity amongst shallow executive types who Know What's Best. That sort of thing is behind the cancellation of _most_ quirky cult shows.
I don't care whether you go away or not.
This could, in fact, be the "real story." Producing a show is an exhausting endeavor.
It also may have offended someone. Or offended someone's sense of what _should_ be successful. Consider the _other_ shows that MTV puts on.
I don't buy the MTV explanation for Daria's demise, for soooo many reasons. Daria is a cooperative venture. It doesn't depend solely on its producer for anything. The producer can easily take a break without killing the show. Many other successful TV shows do exactly that from time to time. Therefore, his explanation, that he was tired and wanted a break, doesn't hold up under examination.
Here's another puzzle:
*) Private, for-profit companies run the US Broadcasting industry, which has been deregulated over the last fifteen years. These companies favor successful shows because those shows make them money. They cancel unsuccessful shows because those shows cost them money. In today's US Economy, this is almost a religious principle: The market ALWAYS determines what becomes successful, and success ALWAYS wins out. Winners rule.
*) Daria is successful. It has a high viewer share, it holds MTV target viewers, and it attracts new viewers to MTV that wouldn't have tuned in otherwise. Other animated shows are not as successful. Other MTV programs are more expensive to produce. To my knowledge, Daria has generated few complaints or lawsuits. Other MTV content is a LOT more controversial. Other animated shows on TV air riskier content: the Simpsons; the FuckShitFart kids. Even Donald Duck and Bugs Bunny are more violent.
*) Occasionally, Networks have cancelled shows because of unforeseen casting problems. CBS cancelled 'Cybill' a few seasons ago. 'Northern Exposure' had problems on the set that couldn't be resolved. So did the Bette Midler show. Still, shows like 'Cheers,' 'Rosanne,' 'Bewitched' and even 'Charmed' overcame the same kinds of problems to continue.
... But 'Daria' is an animated show. It has no casting problems. It pays no million-dollar fees to star actors (Frazier; Friends). The main character (Daria) will never outgrow her innate screen presence any more than Bart Simpson will ('Blossom' and 'Saved By The Bell' had those problems). Daria's simple, direct drawing style requires no special equipment or skills on the part of animators.
*) Therefore, Daria should not have been cancelled. But it was. I see absolutely no reason for the cancellation.
Especialy when you consider that for many of MTV's shows, they're in fact paid to show them or get them for free. FRONTLINE on PBS had a great episode regarding marketing to teens, comenting that everything on MTV is a comercial.
Oops, I accidentally sent something out without completing it. Here's what I wanted to say:
Love and Rockets wrote:
Well, Peter Guerin suggested that one underlying reason for Daria's ending so soon, and it isn't necessarily a conspiracy, either -- he suggested that maybe Glenn got tired of the fact that many Daria fans were polarized over certain themes in the show. There were two groups of opposing camps -- one group had the "Shippers" (those who wanted a relationship between Daria and Trent, in particular) against the "Anti-Shippers". The second group had the "Season Oners" -- those who wanted Daria to remain the way it was -- vs. the "Character Development" people -- those who liked the development in characters. Guerin suggested that maybe the bitterness of the debates may have contributed to him thinking enough was enough.
However, if you have any other theories as to why it was cancelled, you can tell us.
I dunno. It seems like a thin-skinned thing for him to do. I mean, fans carp all the time about television shows. Why should Daria be any different? If you accept that theory Buffy and the X-Files would have been off the air a long time ago.
Look, Glenn probably didn't want someone else taking over the series. Most likely they weren't going to promote anyone from the inner circle to produce. So, just let the show go rather than have it fall into mediocrity.
And he could have been exhausted. He's not only writing episodes, he's supervising other writers and other production crew members. That's a lot. I still remember seeing him from that special. He looked like he was going to keel over. So, it's not too out of the realm of possibilities that he had enough.
Here, here...I can't imagine that that a professional writer and television executive would deep six his own show because several hundred nobodies had spitball fights over it online.
I'm impressed with MTV -- an entity I have an extreme bias against in general terms, on so many levels -- for letting the show's creator end it on _his_ terms.
MTV owns Daria, lock, stock and trademark. The network could keep making Daria forever if they wanted to. Witness Ren and Stimpy -- a ground-breaking show in it's first season that wasn't worth the bullet in the back of the head it needed by the end. Nick -- same corporation, but the way -- thought they could do it without Jon K. They could have made the same assumption about Daria. Thank god they didn't -- maybe they learned a lesson.
Let's not think it impossible that the next show he creates isn't going to be even better. And he can't start that until Daria is tied up.
On 25 Jun 2001 23:38:59 GMT, [email] (Belle Book) wrote:
There's one small correction I should make: MTV did *NOT* cancel "Daria." According to Glenn (in the TOON #24 article), what MTV *did* do was to only offer a half-season renewal (i.e. six or seven episodes instead of a full 13). For that and other reasons -- namely, wanting to move on to other projects and to go out on a high note -- Glenn and MTV made a deal to produce another TV movie instead of the "half season," a movie that would send the characters off to college.
Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Outpost Daria: The Internet's Premiere Website for Daria Fans
New, easy-to-remember URL: http://www.outpost-daria.com
It wasn't exactly a half season renewal, but an extra 6 episodes tacked on to the 5th season. Aparently this offer came so late that there was no way they could of finished those episodes in time to start airing next week, so instead Glenn suggested a movie.
in article KVQZ6.639$[email], Martin J. Pollard at [email] wrote on 6/25/01 7:45 PM:
I agree. I think Glenn wanted to go out the same way as Bill Watterston. By the way, I loved how Glenn came full circle tying elements in the first and the last episodes together.
2. I do not believe for one second, that Mr. Eichler wanted to 'go out on top,' or 'wanted to be with his family,' or 'wanted to pursue other interests.' These are all euphemisms in the Business world, for being fired.
3. I don't believe that GE wanted to go out like Bill Watterston, the creator of Calvin and Hobbes. Nothing on TV is a one-person show. Watterston was a comic strip cartoonist who created, wrote, drew and delivered a one-man show, and had an unusual agreement with his syndicate to boot.
65 used to be the number for regular series as well (i.e. just under three seasons worth. Now the magic number for regular series seems to be 100. Noteworthy series can get by on less.
Now, here's the gem from #513....
adding a bit more spoiler space...
Remember what Sick Sad World was about?? "they gave her a retirement at age 65!" Was the rocket just a bit, or was it more symbolism? hmmm...
It *could* mean the "launch" of a new series. Eichler is working on a college-related cartoon as his next project. Interesting subject since Daria and her peers are going to college next ....
I had an idea for a Daria-Star Trek fanfic with Jane T. Kirk as the captain, SDaria as the science officer, Upchuck (Mr. Rottmeier) as the helmsmen, and Cheif Engineer DeMartino. I never figured out what to do with that concept, but it would be fun, I think, to lampoon ST using Daria characters.
BTW, all Vulcans' names begin with S, so Daria is SDaria, Quinn is SQuinn, and Heleh is SHelen, but Jake is just Jake, an Earthman, parallel to Spock's Mom.
Anybody wanna run with this? I'd do it, but I'm too busy with other writing projects.
On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:03:38 GMT, [email] (Steve Cross) wrote:
Are you sure? I could swere there was a Vulcan named "Tarek" or something along those lines. And there are those that have said that my handle, "Tarvok" sounds Vulcan. He was actually originally a half-elf, so aside from philosophy, I suppose that's close enough. Actually, treat Romulans like traditional half-elves, and you almost have a D&D to Star Trek chain of history...
Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the USS Lawndale, its ongoing mission to seek out new lifeforms and new pizza recipes, to boldly go where Norman has gone before.
Oh yeah, fine, everyone else gets to be a Vulcan, but not poor Jakie boy! GODDAMMIT!!! :)
Jane: So who is Norman?
SDaria: Insufficient data. Another slice?
Jane: I'll pass.
Upchuck: Ladiesssssss....
Jane: What is it, Upchuck?
Upchuck: That's "Mr. Rottmeier".
Jane: I'm sorry. What is it, Upchuck?
Upchuck: There appears to be a Bolt-On Warbird decloaking ahead of us.
Jane: On screen.
SDaria: It appears to be an acrylic life form...
Jane: My bad! I forgot to take down my easel.
SDaria: Oh don't worry. It can't be any worse than when SQuinn went in search of the God of Fashion...
Jane: Oh yeah. What happened there?
SDaria: Nothing much. They couldn't get past the outer belt of the universe.
Jane: Why not?
SDaria: It clashed with her boots...
Upchuck: We are being hailed.
Ms. Li: I am MizLi of the LaaaawdalHiiiii clan. You have crossed into Bolt-On space and you are now ordered to volunteer for surrender.
Upchuck: Rrrrowl... feisty!!!
Jane: I am Jane T Kirk of the USS Lawndale. We come in pizza.
SDaria: You really need to watch where you sit. You have cheesy goodness all over your butt.
Jake: Ewwww <shivers>
Jane: So what are our chances if we turn and run?
SDaria: Not good.
DeMartino: It canna TAKE it, stooodents! We NEED more delirious CRYSTALS!
Jane: Will two day old pepperoni do?
What will happen to the folk aboard the USS Lawndale? Will they escape, or be subjected to eternal detention in the Bolt-On Hiizgul prison? All this and more on Sick Sad Universe, after these messages from our sponsor...
Look at the world of animation. How many series have gone 7 seasons? Most shows get 1 or 2, maybe 3 seasons. Even when they are created directly for syndication, you'll rarely get more then 65 episodes produced. Daria is not Cheers. It is an animated show with limited syndication potential.
In answer to your statement about five years being too short for syndication, you're right -- about live-action shows. Seven years is what's needed for syndication success in live-action shows. An animated series would need five years to be a great syndication prospect. Most animated series don't last that long -- I know one that didn't, and that's "Where on Earth is Carmen Sandiego?". It lasted about four years, which was even shorter for syndication purposes. So, Daria's got a better chance for syndication than WOEICS did. In short, next time you provide evidence that Daria was on for too short a time for good syndication, maybe you should examine the evidence.
I'd like having the thirteen episodes myself, but I'll take what I can get.
That's fine -- you make a good case for a five-year syndication model. Daria is not dead in syndication. I just think the show would have had a much better chance with another thirteen to twenty six episodes.
Besides, basic syndication economics still doesn't change just because the show is animated. Stations buying a show still want a full season of dailies, and are much more interested if they can get more, because they know the show will hold its viewers even longer. Stations still choose a new show based on whether it will attract more viewers than what they have running currently.
I'm being a hard-ass SOB here, because I don't see any other way to get this issue discussed reasonably on this newsgroup. 'Daria's' final demise was not a peaches-and-cream, into-the- sunset happy-happy event. This is a very good show getting cancelled for no obvious reason, right when it was going to make a whole lot of money for the people who created, produced, and showed it.
To use a weightlifting analogy for the macho types here; you do nine reps; you don't grow. You do the tenth and eleventh rep where you fatigue a muscle system to its zero-point, and that's where all your growth happens. Daria did nine reps and then her personal trainer ran off with the weights.
I don't know about you, but I'm mad that this happened. I lose a show I really liked. I got fucked by MTV. I've been lied to by somebody about 'Daria's' demise, and it wasn't even a very good lie. According to all that is economically holy and apple-pie American, Daria's numbers and demographics should have guaranteed her a longer life than she got, in this dollar-fuelled 88-channel media machine we look to for everything in our lives short of sex and breakfast.
Think about it: Daria is gone and Miss Cleo is still on the air.
I do see your point, but face it: businesses can make idiotic decisions. Especially businesses with very murky products, like the "audience share deliverable to advertisers" that is the product of commercial television; and managers with really big egos, such as are involved in showbusiness. It could be that some Suit with a newly minted MBA and no common sense cancelled it for some penny-wise, pound-foolish reason. It could have been internal politics. It could have been an ideological antipathy to the show's messages about growing up. Or it could have been exactly as Glenn Eichler is telling it.
We truly don't know, and, absent any firm evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe Glenn Eichler, because he has the only coherent story I've heard to told about it.
Anyway, I think I can understand your side of the story, but from the point of view of a WOEICS fan. The Carmen fans wanted to know why the show was being cancelled. The answer? Just before the fourth season would be aired, the person in charge of FOX Kids left and was replaced by Haim Saban of Power Rangers fame. We suspect he played a key role in getting Carmen off the air.
In any case, the only evidence we have as to the reasons that Daria's going is what Glenn Eichler told us. Until there's evidence to the contrary, we should accept his side of the story. That doesn't mean we have to like it, of course.
That would be the "psychic" with a really bad Jamaican accent with all of the commercials playing recently. I think they're a bit funny, but then, I like watching daytime talk shows, so I'm not one to talk about quality television.
I've never even heard of her before now, which is proof of how out-of-touch I am with what most people watch on TV. I prefer watching cartoons to most live-action shows, so that's more proof.
But he's not been fired. He's working on a new series, which deals with college life, ironically enough. This was revealed in a Viacom press release not too long ago.
I really don't think Glenn Eichler would have been _that_ affected by the fan debates and fanfic. I don't remember the debate being all that bitter, either.
I do think that _Daria_ succeeded beyond the creators' wildest expectations. I don't think they originally expected it to run more than a season or two, which is why you only see rather tentative character development in the first couple of seasons, with no real motion of the plot until Lane Miserables and Jane's Addiction.
I don't think you really _need_ a conspiracy theory to explain why a show that's run several seasons longer than anyone could have originally hoped should ultimately be given up on by the creators. I do think that there may have been a "soft" conspiracy in terms of MTV execs insisting on changes to "improve" the show, and if _that_ was the case, I'm glad that the creators cancelled it.
Imagine the possible "improvements" ... *shudder*
What I think Daria fandom should do, after the end of the show, is keep active and try to get the show resurrected, either in the form of a (good) spinoff, a series of movies, or a revival, some years in the future. Hey, it happened to Star Trek ...
What's worse is that it would have wound up being cruel to the main character, in exactly the same manner as _The Mary Tyler Moore Show_ was. The character would have been trapped in her "initial role concept" and unable to grow beyond it.
Season 5 had a _couple_ of really lame episodes, which makes me think that the creative juices were running out.
I'm not so sure. After all, season 4 had "A Tree Grows in Lawndale", "Murder She Snored", and "The F Word", consecutively. Things picked up rather nicely after that.
The 2 really lame ep's were "Fizz Ed" and "Prize Fighters." I think there's consensus on that. I thought "Camp Fear" was uneven but not bad overall, just not particularly good. That leaves 10 eps ranging from good to excellent. And I've seen them all, because I just stepped away from the TV after seeing "Boxing Daria." 10 out of 13 is a great record in my book.
Steve Cross First one to comment after actually seeing "Boxing Daria" na, na, nuh, na, naaa
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Steve Cross) did write in news:9h8srh$t3e$[email], on the date of 25 Jun 2001:
"Fizz Ed" and "Prize Fighters" were really lame (with the latter being much lamer than the former, IMO). I liked "Camp Fear" quite a bit - Trent's quest to find the wisdom of the people cracked me up. (That episode also has one of my all-time favorite Jane lines: "I can see where you would come down on the side of the dip," with perfect delivery from Wendy Hoopes.) The other 10 episodes, including "Boxing Daria," were among the best of the series, and I'm eagerly anticipating the movie.
Um...Why does that fact provoke you into singing "Land of 1,000 Dances"?
Given that the show tened to have Daria being always right early on (which turned off a number of potential viewers I know of), I can't say it was cruel to her. No more so then any other sitcom.
It's obvious that the creators of Daria didn't originaly intend to have any character growth, or a progressing storyline. The change in season three is rather dramatic, almost as if it's a different series.
It's a subtler kind of "cruelty" that I'm thinking of.
Daria would have remained only having one friend, totally alienated from everyone else, and never having a steady boyfriend (in fact, probably never having any romance beyond disastrous dates a la "The New Kid"). She would have finished high school as total an outcast as she began it.
I'm not _totally_ sure of that -- we do see some progress. For instance, in "Ill," Daria learns that other Lawndalers actually _like_ her, and in "Road Worriers" and "Pierce Me" she started to connect emotionally with Trent.
But you're right that it focused a _lot_ more on character development starting season 3.
Though the Daria "initial role concept" wouldn't have been a terrible one for her to be trapped in, I'm actually glad Eichler allowed her to grow beyond it. Otherwise, I wouldn't have seen episodes such as "Boxing Daria".
Not necessarily -- I didn't see "Prize Fighters", which is presumably one of the two really lame episodes that you thought of (the other was "Fizz Ed", which I did see), but while "Camp Fear" was below-average, the others in Season 5 ranged from good to excellent, which doesn't indicate the creative juices were running out to me.
Five seasons have produced around 65 shows. In terms of reruns, 'Daria' has a thirteen-week daily strip-in, which is a working minimum for syndication. 'Daria' just barely makes the cut.
While 65 shows gets 'Daria' syndicated, it will hard for the show to get resyndicated, because local TV Stations have to start repeating episodes after only 13 weeks. Really successful syndicated shows have enough to last at least a half-year or longer, so average viewers don't see the same episodes as often.
For people who might not know; these days Syndication is where American TV Shows make money. Most first-run shows end in the red until they are syndicated. The standard syndication measure is for a local TV station to show old weekly episodes one day after another at the same time, to build up a casual viewing audience, and then determine whether their viewer Share is increasing or decreasing. Many huge first-run shows like the Cosby Show and Murphy Brown have failed in syndication because they didn't build expected audiences. On the other hand, syndication saved Star Trek.
While I am grateful for five seasons of 'Daria,' I would be much more grateful of those seasons had been a full 13 episodes apiece, and if they had been followed by at least another thirty episodes. Even thirty mediocre episodes (mixed with 65 great ones) would have been better than nothing, because an off-episode is easier for an average viewer to tolerate on a five day strip- in. One hundred or more episodes would have helped 'Daria' sign REPEAT syndication deals, that would have kept the show running on my TV a whole lot longer.
This is another strange reason for MTV to kill 'Daria.' MTV shows are very hard to syndicate. That's why so many of them are so cheap, and why MTV runs so many ads. Daria would have been one of their few good syndication chances. They threw it away.
It also means that Glen Eichler has just thrown away most of the money he's earned over the last five years. Why?
Which, of course, is why Kelsey Grammer is the second-highest paid actor on tv, or some supurlative like that. Dr. Craine will be rerun til the aliens come and blow the tv sattelites out of orbit....
A (on-topic) question: Does MTV syndicate its shows? Aside from REALLY old episodes of The Real World on the Pittsburgh-area WB, I don't ever recall seeing an MTV show on any other network. I get the feeling that MTV's corporate strategy is one of self-sufficiency. Also, they seem to hype up their keystone shows, i.e. Real World and Road Rules, and then produce a lot of filler, on deliberatly low budgets, that they don't expect to fulfill any other need than to gather more ratings than dead air. Daria had a lot of hype at the beginning, but I get the feeling that the last season or so were considered "filler." Someone else mentioned that this season seemed rushed...
Ice Queen x~x~x~x~x "And so we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaslessly into the past." (Gatsby)
Earlier this year, UPN briefly showed old episodes of Celebrity Deathmatch -- IIRC, it only ran for 2-3 weeks. Note that UPN and MTV are both owned by Viacom.
As you pointed out, early seasons of The Real World are currently in syndication; I have no idea how many stations bought it, or how it's performing ratings-wise.
Two shows, out of the dozens MTv has on how and, possibly hundreds? that it's run in the past. Well, you guys who want to see Daria on syndication can dream, but I'm going to stockpile my Daria on video now in case the show never sees the light of day again.
Ice Queen x~x~x~x~x "And so we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaslessly into the past." (Gatsby)
Know all men by these presents, that the aforesaid [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) did write in news:[email], on the date of 25 Jun 2001:
I also have a hard time imagining that the 'Shippers significantly affected him. The X-Files 'Shippers are much more vociferous, but I've never seen evidence that Chris Carter paid much attention to them. And for a truly rancorous fan war, there's always the great "Joel vs. Mike" controversy among MST3K fans, which also didn't affect the show's producers.
That's an interesting idea, although I'd say there were serious episodes in the second season (actually, I'd say "The Misery Chick" was the first truly serious episode in terms of character development). If you look at the main theme of the show being Daria and Jane's friendship (and I could make a pretty good case), then "Arts 'N Crass" and "See Jane Run" develop the theme significantly; and "Write Where It Hurts" developed the relationship between Daria and her family.
One of the things I find fascinating about the first season is how many of the themes developed in later seasons were planted there: Jake's attempt to bond with Kevin in "The Lab Brat" foreshadows "One J At A Time"; the rivalry between Quinn and Sandi begins in "Too Cute"; and the first serious rift between Daria and Jane occurs in "The Misery Chick", which is also the first episode that shows how much Trent cares about his kid sister.
I'd like to see sporadic updates over the years letting us know what the various characters are up to. They've become so real to me over the few years since I began watching that I feel a bit like I'm the one who's leaving - moving away, as it were. I just hope they keep in touch.
IMO the worst thing that could happen to the show would be "Daria: Voyager". Just imagine it. "Clever" and "compelling" plotlines, "excitingly" twisted human relations, "thrilling" encounters, "insighful" commentary and "incomparable" comedy of situation. In other words, back to season one with marketing research instead of vision as a primary guide.
st:tas is "star trek: the animated series", the cartoon series that began in 1973. the writing was pretty damned good, especially for a 70s cartoon (superfriends, anyone? ;P).
ja ne hotaru, who is a total trek geek, but only tos, and occasionally tng
Possibly, but there were seeds planted just in case the show lasted more than two seasons, since there are some episodes with definite character and/or plot development in it -- "Road Warrior" and "The Misery Chick" in Season 1, and "Quinn the Brain" and "Pierce Me" in Season 2, among others. (I'm just mentioning those episodes I've seen.)
I don't think I want to, thanks.
Or updates as to how the characters are doing. That'll do as well.
I think this shows how far everyone has to go, to come up with a reason for Daria's demise. I don't think anybody has any other alternatives that make sense. Neither did I.
That's why I raised the question -- what the HELL went on here?
Successful people in television always have to be ready to turn nothing into something. This is where almost all "hits" come from.
"Daria" just barely scratched the surface of real-life situations that could have become successful episodes -- I don't buy for a second, that they ran out of ideas.
As far as expectations go: Does everyone here know that the Tracy Ullman show was expected to be gigantic, and the 'Simpsons' were just there as a change of pace? Ill bet there are lots of readers on this newsgroup that don't even know what the Tracy Ullman show was, or that the Simpsons were originally about five minutes of mediocre animation in the middle of the show when it started.
Nobody knew that the Simpsons were going to be big, and the creators still made it work. Characters on the Simpsons are more experienced and perhaps more complex, but Bart is still 10 and Lisa is still smart and everyone else is still fundamentally what they had become by the second season.
No conspiracy theory. I just don't think we were told the truth. I think (for reasons stated earlier) that there is a 'truth' to know.
As far as the Execs go; this is an ever-present broadcast industry hazard. Everyone starts projects knowing that Execs will tinker if they are successful, and execs will tinker if they are failing. It *always* happens.
Besides, we do not know at this point, what MTVs plans for Daria could have been, that would have caused Eichler to kill the show. We do not even know whether Eichler had the authority to kill the show. All we know is that he has professed a sudden personal fatigue together with a strong nostalgia for his family's company, that has caused him to kill a successful personal project that he loved. We also see that MTV is not protesting -- they'd be making noise if they didn't agree with "Daria's" demise.
Well, look at _Daria_, and look at the rest of the shows on MTV.
I don't have to think very hard to imagine what _sorts_ of proposed changes might have led him to cancel the series. Almost _anything_ that would have made _Daria_ conform better to a standard like _Undressed_ or _The Real World_ would have mutated it into something truly awful, and in the process really played hell with the characters.
I'd rather see the show cancelled than turn into its own antithesis.
I don't believe Glenn Eichler would put in a nice (or decent) word defending MTV publicly in Toon if he'd just been cancelled. There's be no reason to. Another season would be nice, but it's natural that he'd want to move onto other projects after around and about 6 years.
Besides, there's talk on PP's message board about the possiblity of a Daria character being spun off into Eichler's new MTV college series. Which could be very interesting indeed.
Now, to play devil's advocate...he IS under contract, and he IS an associate producer at MTVA, or something like that. The hand that feeds you, and all that.
Hi. I'm going to be bowing out of this thread now. I already stated my basic points:
I love the show.
I'll miss the show when it's gone.
The show didn't handle the sex topic too realistically.
I still love the show.
Love and Rockets,
I don't know who you are, but thanks for coming to my rescue. I stated that I didn't buy a few things about Daria's "budding sexuality" and I got pounced on (a little). Then you stepped in and pounced on the pouncer! :-)
Here's a heavily edited piece of that:
"Love and Rockets" wrote in message news:[email]...
and
with Tom.
the
doing
meant to
Hopefully I have truncated fairly. Anyway, Jordan, I only need to count the message headers to know you are a huge fan of the show. Just want to let you know that I am as well, even if I think it stumbles occasionally.
Love and Rockets, I... suppose... maybe you could have commented on any unfair debate techniques without quite dissing Jordan so directly. But, still, it was very nice to have you on my side! :-)
Looking back on it, I'm not sure what I was hoping to gain with my original post. The show is over, so why bother coming to a newsgroup where the show's four biggest fans meet and complaining about something the show could have done better.
I could just as easily have named 20 things the show did just right:
1. Helen tearing up the paper towels while she talks to her family on the phone. 2. Quinn trying to compliment Daria on her hair. 3. Quinn nervously inviting Daria to watch Gone with the Wind. 4. Jane explaining her plan for losing her virginity. 5. Daria teaching. 6. Daria submitting stories to magazines. 7. Jane or Daria trying to "help" Trent write lyrics: "Amber waves of grain?" 8. Jane being propositioned by her friend at art camp. 9. Tiffany trying to explain to Helen: "Car-i-ca-tur-ist!" 10. The pedophile teacher making passes at Tiffany. 11. Quinn coming home and innocently telling her mom about the teacher. 12. Daria grabbing the phone for her mom. 13. Trent debating fashion with Nathan: "Yeah, well, the 40s were over first." 14. Sandy moping in bed: "Even if I live another twenty years..." 15. Quinn asking out the tutor and getting rejected! 16. Tom supporting Daria's protest against Ultra Cola 17. Trent and Jane discussing whether or not Daria messed up Jane's hair on purpose. 18. Helen taking time off work to talk to Daria about kissing Tom. 19. Daria, Jane and Tom now joking semi-comfortably about Daria dating Jane's ex-boyfriends. 20. Stacy hanging the picture up in her closet.
Sure, I could have dredged up a list of 20 things that *didn't* work for me, but this seemed a lot more fun.
David: It's OK. I don't really deserve to be thanked.
You have the right to whatever opinions you have. You get to post them here any time you want to.
Jordan gets to post as well, which he does. He gets to think whatever he wants to think, too. His ideas don't bother me. It was the way he addressed other person's ideas.
He pretended he didn't understand your idea; proposed an extreme example of what he decided to think your idea was; then he argued against that extreme idea that he invented.
This is a strawman fallacy. It leaves the original poster (you; me; anybody else) feeling personally frustrated and ashamed. This is not cool.
It is civilized and polite to understand the point of an original post before responding to it -- and responding to that point somewhere in your reply.
I guess you're right, but it's one thing to be kissed by somebody, and another thing to kiss somebody back. I think that wanting to kiss somebody back is a thing that helps us to get over being shy or prudish or whatever. Wanting to be kissed is nice. Wanting to kiss somebody back is really nice.
I can see that Tom has kissed Daria. I haven't seen Daria kiss Tom, and I haven't heard her say even in passing, that she wants to kiss him, or that she enjoys it, or anything like that.
Oh, she most definitely kissed him back the second time in DDMD. And again, remember that the show is not _Lawndale Undressed_: we have to assume that the majority of their romantic encounters are not depicted.