Spoiler Space . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . . . . This was NOT a very good episode...but the ending with Stacy and the picture was just so god-damned sweet.
<SIGH>
I can't really hate this ep like I should.
Damnit!
Firah
A voice crying in the wilderness ([email] (Firah)) was heard to say in :
H e _ t o t a l l y _ e x a g g e r a t e d _ o u r _ f e a t u r e s
That was my take on it as well - standard-issue sitcom plot, but with Daria characters. And even though I guessed the ending, you're right - it was _very_ god-damned sweet. Most of the good stuff in this episode was around the edges - Trent's hapless attempts to keep the carpenters in line, Tiffany trying to get Helen to help break the artist's fingers (I loved that), and Jane's talk with Daria near the end - the bit about wanting to be a "super-hack" instead of just a garden-variety hack rang very true for me. (Also the scene where Steve Taylor critiques Jane's painting. I felt exactly what she was feeling.) But most of the gazebo plot was soooo sitcommy - I expected to hear standard "comic deflation" music (wah - wah - WAHHH) when the elder Lanes showed up and revealed the truth about the 'naming gazebo.'
But yeah, Stacy gazing into her closet takes the sting off of it. Very sweet...
-Mark Steese
Well, I'm not sure you SHOULD hate it. It was mediocre but not *bad* (I thought Fizz Ed was *bad* - although not disgustingly horrible)
Yeah, how about Stacy? First (in FLM) she gets a spine, now she shows some cunning as well - ending up with the caricature and none of the other girls seem to know she has it.
me.
Kind of a weird episode. They could have given Daria's lines to someone else - written her out of the episode entirely - and little would have been lost. It almost felt like they figured they HAD to give her a few lines because her name's on the show.
Have Jane AND Trent ever so dominated a show? Jane has mostly been in the background this season. I guess they've made up for that now.
But although Daria faded into the background, we saw such rarely-seen characters as Steve Taylor, Vince Lane, Amanda Lane, Wind Lane. A bit weird. (Where was Artie? :-) )
And wasn't this episode the first time we've seen Jane and Tom face-to-face since IIFY? "No problemo" for Jane, it appears.
Yes, that would have been appropriate. :-)
Well, not ENTIRELY sweet. She might have cropped the picture to leave her own flattering image and get rid of the others'. Obviously, the other images portray her "friends" about as she sees them, and she likes the contrast with herself.
Nasty little fashion fanatic, ain't she? And still stupid - if YOU wanted someone's fingers broken, would YOU go to Helen Morgendorffer? Seems to me a FC girl could get one of their dumb jocks to do such a deed - how about out old friend Robert (of "Daria Dance Party" and "The New Kid" fame)? He'd do it (or try to) in a minute:
ROBERT: Do you want me to start with his pinkies, ma'am? Or his thumbs?
TIFFANY: Huhh??? Hmmm. Would *I* look good with broken fingers?
M Man
MMan said:
Jane needed a foil here, and at least Daria was more verbose than Jane was in "Fizz Ed".
But it's true that this was more about Jane than about Daria. If the plot didn't require Trent to be back at the Lane house sleep ... I mean supervising the carpenters, Daria could have been replaced by Trent in those scenes with very little change.
It's been well over half a year now.
herself.
Heh-heh-heh :)
Actually, the image of Stacy, in contrast, wasn't _entirely_ flattering -- it also implied that she was hopelessly naive -- but I don't think Stacy saw it that way.
I do think that Stacy was the only one of them the artist actually _liked_, though.
Yes, going to a _lawyer_ with that kind of proposition is exceedingly stupid. :)
(though mind you, if Helen _wanted_ to break someone's fingers, I'd give her a better chance of actually _succeeding- at the task than any of the Lawndale jocks).
That ain't sayin' much :-)
But I get your point.
True.
But some people hold grudges longer than that :-). Just good to see Jane doesn't appear to be one of them.
It would be nice if she found a new boyfriend, though. Ever since "Jane's Addition", there's always been an "I have a boyfriend and you don't" subtext in Jane and Daria's friendship.
The picture DID look that way a bit.
But if Stacy doesn't see herself as naive, there's a good reason.
She isn't.
Yeah, we all remember Robert's mission on his "date" with "Darcy", and just how well :-) he pulled it off..
M Man
MMan said:
I'm not minimizing the degree to which Jane was hurt. It's just that Jane never took it as a "grudge" in the first place -- if you look at DDMD, she's mad at Tom, but she doesn't _hate_ him. Or Daria, really. She just finds it unbearably painful to be around them, and can't control her own lashing out at them.
I'm sure she will someday. But it's not really that easy for Jane, because she's a _true_ individual -- she doesn't fit in either in the mainstream _or_ the artistic subculture. And she has fairly high standards.
It's hard to say -- she doesn't strike me as particularly sophisticated or knowledgable in the ways of the world -- _any_ ways of the world. She's not a total idiot, but I wouldn't say her eyes are totally open.
H e _ t o t a l l y - e x a g g e r a t e d _ o u r _ f e a t u r e s
Ways of the world? The world's a big place, especially for a teenager. I think she knows a lot more about what's going on in HER world than I would have suspected her of before season 5.
Before "Fat Like Me", I didn't think she really knew what went on between Sandi and Quinn, except that it scared her and she didn't want to offend anybody. She rather surprised me when she made this observation to Tiffany: "You know, like Sandi used to. She'd say something like 'nail decals' and Quinn would say they're pass� and Sandi would ask if Quinn knew the difference between pass� and retro and Quinn would explain what she meant to say and we'd move on to the next topic. " I wonder if Quinn and Sandi understand themselves quite so well.
And she's shown some unexpected craftiness: when she tried to recruit boys into the FC, she knew a direct approach wouldn't work. So she lured the 3 J's to her place with promises of pictures of bikinied babes. Even though it didn't ultimately work, it was the right approach.
And how did she end up with that caricature without the other three girls knowing? I wouldn't think Sandi would let that out of her sight until the artist was duly disbarred or deported or whatever.
The only truly stupid thing Stacy's done this season is copy her essay test off Sandi. And she figured out that it was stupid as soon as she got her paper back; she didn't blame Quinn or Daria.
OK, she's not a "total genius". But "not a total idiot" is damning her with faint praise. She's a lot more than just another pretty face (though she IS that!).
M Man
"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...
or
not a
have
Sandi
anybody.
know,
say
pass�
to the
well.
boys
J's
the
test off
paper
with
IS
<In a childesqe, sing song voice>
MMan likes Stacy! MMan likes Stacy! <beat> MMan and Stacy Sitting in a tree....
;-)
Firah
M Man wrote:
I'd definitely agree that Sandi doesn't understand herself half as well as Stacy knows her. Quinn -- maybe she doesn't know herself QUITE as well as Stacy knows her, but I'd definitely say she has greater self-awareness than Sandi does. She did show some self-awareness in the Season 2 episode "Monster", after all (though she might've been using it to manipulate Daria).
Well, her PSTAT score in "Is It Fall Yet?" was second-highest at 940 (only Quinn, at 955, had a higher score out of the FC members), so the potential for cleverness was probably there.
As for how she managed to get it without the other three girls knowing, we can only guess, but here's a possible scenario: the other three girls are distracted for some reason shortly after taking the vote, and Stacy takes the opportunity to swipe the picture without anyone seeing her doing so. Missing it, Sandi might assume that Quinn took it home to show her mother -- especially if she had asked Quinn to show Helen the picture.
I think Stacy's less likely to blame others without real cause anyway.
I'd agree -- she has more depth than most people see (and the writers have shown us before Season 5).
Belle Book
Oh yes. And, *sometimes* it looks like Quinn gets Sandi into conversations like the above just to yank Sandi's chain.
But sometimes she just gets into them. And lets Sandi get to her. And doesn't quite know why she's on the defensive again. I'll bet Stacy sees it coming a mile away.
The way they all stick together during their meetings, I wonder not only how would Stacy *swipe* it, but hide it on her person without mangling it.
Maybe she had an accomplice?
M Man
M Man wrote:
I'd say then that this is one of those times when Quinn simply got Sandi into one of those conversations, and it ended badly for them both. After all, Quinn was NOT happy with the end result of the caricatures.
The only person who would count as an accomplice as far as I know would be the caricaturist. Or maybe Stacy simply came to Sandi's house when she knew Sandi would be out, and swiped the painting then.
Belle Book
M Man wrote:
None of the episodes so far have been really horrible, and this is another example of a so-so episode (would've been worse for me if I hadn't seen what Stacy had done at the end).
I should've known that Stacy would keep it at the end, since she was the only one in the FC who didn't ask Helen to help them destroy the caricaturist who made that picture. And it was great, seeing Stacy develop beyond the naive, spineless girl we've seen before Season 5.
Well, Daria wasn't completely wasted. She was still there as a good friend, and to push Jane toward the right path.
As for Tom, it has been over six months by now, I suspect, and Jane doesn't seem to be the type of girl who keeps grudges for an extremely long time. Besides, she was cordial to Tom in "Is It Fall Yet?", and that was six months ago at least.
At least Jane got a good line out of it. :)
I don't think she cropped the picture to leave her own flattering image. Remember how the others reacted when they saw the caricatures for the first time? I don't think it was flattering to them at all, and it was flattering to Stacy. Though I do think she liked the contrast between the unflattering caricatures of Sandi, Tiffany, and Quinn and the more flattering one of her.
Belle Book
A voice crying in the wilderness ([email] (MMan37x)) was heard to say in : W h o a . . . t h a t _ w a s _ j u s t _ c r u e l .
She had a few good lines that I missed the first time around -
Jane: You'll figure out something. Use your womanly attributes. Daria: Gotcha. I'll give birth.
Also, I think Miss Defoe has had more screen time in Season 5 than in the past four seasons combined - not that there's anything wrong with that.
Jane's cool. I figured the grudge was finally kaput in "The Story of D," when she advised Daria to take the story to Tom, but it was good to see confirmation. (Not that I was spending my spare time worrying about it. Well, not _all_ my spare time.)
Also, the ending wouldn't have made a whole lot of sense if the viewers hadn't seen the whole drawing, so no cropping allowed...
I'm guessing she just figured that if mobsters have lawyers, then Helen must know some mobsters. (The scene also features my nomination for the least likely _Daria_ dialogue ever: when Helen says "Do you understand?" and Tiffany says "Of course!"
Well, Robert did break Kevin's jaw - fingers shouldn't be too tough. He seems to be Quinn's turf, though, much like the three J's. Maybe Tiffany should look up the Yakuza - they're good with fingers.
-Mark Steese
"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...
I don't think either episode was that bad. Not among the best, but far from the worst (Depth Takes A Holiday).
else -
It
But who else is Jane going to open up to about what happened, and who else is going to help set her straight? Daria and Jane are best friends. So the plot centered on Jane, but Daria was certainly involved.
have
Awesome moment. I assume this was a reference to The Sopranos?
"Jeg7777" wrote in message news:9agke4$vps$[email]...
from
to
lost.
her
Oh yeah...
Firah
"Jeg7777" wrote in message news:9agke4$vps$[email]...
from
Not to get into a whole thing about just how bad Depth Takes a Holiday was (well, OK ... DTaH was NOT a bad episode ... bad episodes try to do something specific and fail, DTaH tried to do something and succeeded, but some people have a personal and arbitrary distaste for what it was trying to do, but anyway ...) but has anybody else noticed that we haven't had ANY "fantasy" episodes yet this season. Score one for the whiners. I expect at least one more before the end of the show, though. As much as people whined about DTaH and Murder, She Snored, I think the writers are going to try to do at least one more ep on the level of Write 'Til it Hurts.
Just for the record, "fantasy" episodes so far...
Write Where it Hurts Depth Takes a Holiday Daria! Legends of the Mall Murder, She Snored
"Chris McCubbin" wrote in message news:Ar2z6.127689$[email]...
to
whined
I don't consider Daria! or Write Where It Hurts to be fantasy episodes. Those episodes had no flashbacks/dreams/apparent dream sequences. The WWIH sequences were Daria's attempts at writing her story. (Come to think of it, Legends of the Mall may not be a fantasy episode either.) And the only thing different about Daria! was the fact that they kept breaking into song.
Hmmm. I think there's reason to consider them all "fantasy" episodes. WWIH's dream sequences were daydreams whereas "Murder"'s were conventional dreams, but still dreams in both cases. And I don't think an entire town would sing its way through a hurricane. Or that a man with steel teeth really attacks cars in Lawndale.
But back to the original thought: what about the possibility and desirability of a fantasy episode in season 5?
An obvious topic with the series winding down would be: what are Daria and her friends doing in the future - say, 20 years or so? That would be an interesting episode or sequence.
I've always like the idea of "fantasy" episodes, even when they don't turn out well. I don't like DTaH or MSS, but I do like the other three Chris listed. I like the idea that the writers of the show are willing to take some chances.
M Man
MMan said:
But Daria really dreamed this things, in the context of the show's reality.
The style was "musical", but the basic events of the ep still might have happened.
The whole ep, minus the stories, could have been real, except for the teeth embedded in the car, which might have been a fantasy.
Oh, yes. In BOTH cases, in fact. I don't think a show has to be fantasy from the opening theme to the closing theme to be a "fantasy" episode. Only that the main action take place in some sort of fantasy sequence. (As opposed to brief fantasies, like Daria's fantasies about Trent in "Lane Miserables") It's OK if we see Daria (or whoever) falling asleep, dreaming, and waking up, as in "Murder, She Snored".
Yep
embedded in the car, which might have been a fantasy.
And that's the way I always took it. But the bulk of the episode, once again, took place in fantasy sequences.
(Which, like many urban legends, might have bases in reality. Maybe Lawndale HS had a girl in the 1960s who overdid her Twiggy-image and ended up a laughingstock, and the story became wildly embellished over the years.)
I suppose we could come up with a strict interpretation that only recognized "Depth Takes a Holiday" as a fantasy, since we don't see Daria falling asleep or waking up (or maybe sitting at her computer typing a story?), but I think there's good reason to consider all five episodes "fantasy" stories because most of the action takes place that way.
---------
Note -
I went back and checked the transcript of "Depth Takes a Holiday" and found this line (I thought I remembered something like this):
DARIA: All I care about is that this dream isn't the first sign of a brain tumor.
So DTaH's a dream, too. Why can't my dreams be so imaginative? :-)
M Man
OK, so let's look at some basics and refine our taxonomy a bit.
Depth Takes a Holiday and Daria! are true "fantasy" episodes. The characters are shown as themselves, but without explination they begin doing "impossible" things (interacting with a fantasy world in DTaH, bursting into elaborate musical numbers in Daria!). No, Daria! wouldn't be a fantasy episode if the characters always burst into song in every episode, but at the same time DTaH wouldn't be a fantasy episode if this were, say, Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
Write Where it Hurts and Legends of the Mall are "fictional" episodes. The characters are shown taking on alternate personas in the context of a framing device wherein the "real" characters undertake creative storytelling.
Murder She Snored is a dream. The characters are shown as "themselves," but their personas tend to mutate in random bizarre ways.
So by my definition Write Where it Hurts is as much a fantasy ep as Legends of the Mall, and Daria! as much so as DTaH.
The writers did something in "Art Burn" that I noticed in "Story of D" also. The FC girls do something that parallels the plot line that Daria and/or Jane are involved in. In "Art Burn," Jane is making cheap reproductions of paintings, while the FC girls don't like a caricature that was drawn of them. In "Story of D," Daria and the FC girls try their hands at writing. The difference is that Daria actually has to try and get published, but the FC girls "self-publish." Both experience rejection in different ways. Daria gets her rejection letter. The FC newsletter is "recalled" because Sandi can't bear to be contradicted by WAIF magazine.
Pettiness on the part of the FC girls is a recurring theme also, with Sandi, once again, as the spearhead of it. In "Story of D," why should the FC get all bent out of shape just because the editors of WAIF don't agree with them? Because it's "unfashionable" to disagree with WAIF magazine, arbiter of style for teens! Why should the FC seek legal action against the caricaturist? Because their feelings are hurt. Most girls would''ve just thrown the picture away and forgotten about it.
The writers have come to realize that FC has both comic and dramatic potential. Here and in "Fat Like Me," Stacy starts to strike out on her own, though here it's less obvious. The temporary breakup of FC in "Fat Like Me" was a portent of things to come, in some ways. We all knew FC was an unstable formation and we expected Quinn to be the first to leave. It might be Stacy instead.
I was touched by that. Stacy felt <trendy vocabulary> validated by that. </trendy vocabulary>
Wouldn't we all have liked to sat in on that staff session?
STEVE: No, no, no, Glenn. Leave the gazebo out of it. A pipe bursts in the Lane's house, and damages Mr. Lane's photo lab. That way, there's more at stake here.
GLENN: But, Steve, the gazebo bit is funny.
STEVE: Funny, shmunny. You want funny, you've got the Fashion Club girls.
Steve Cross
Yeah, it was pretty lame. However, for some reason I really liked Jane's delivery of, "I'm gonna kill Wind." The utter sincerity of it made me laugh.
I also liked the way Trent's eyes bugged out when the workers called him "the man."
It wasn't the best episode, but I'm glad we got to focus on Jane for awhile. I've been wondering how she was doing. I worry about her, ya know. :)
-Ashley... awright already, I *know* it's just a cartoon...
BITE YOUR TONGUE!!!
:-) :-) :-) :-)
M Man
"Ashley D Ford" wrote in message news:9acjev$438m$[email]...
wah -
Yeah, I've been waiting a long time for a 'Jane Lane' episode, and when they give us one, it isn't done well at all!
Better luck next time...if there is a next time.
7 episodes down, 6 to go...plus a movie.
I've been wondering how she was doing. I worry about her, ya
As Jane Lane so succinctly pointed out in the Sarcastathon:
Jane: We aren't even real people.
We all know it's just a cartoon but it doesn't stop us from caring about the character's anyway.
Such is the mark of all good fiction, animated or otherwise.
Firah
A voice crying in the wilderness ([email] (Steve Cross)) was heard to say in :
W h o a . . . t h a t _ w a s _ j u s t _ c r u e l .
To be fair, all of the FC's articles were contradicted, and they were all devastated - Quinn actually screamed. (Also note that it was Quinn's idea to do a newsletter in the first place...)
I thought that was fairly sad, given that the FC's ideas were just as good as the ones in 'Waif' (not that that's saying much). Of course, if they were enlightened enough to realize that fashion trends are basically made- up nonsense, they wouldn't have written the newsletter.
Actually, I've known a few who would have let that particular injury fester for years. Come to think of it, I would have as well - I'm extremely thin- skinned. (And note that, once again, Quinn started it all by telling Sandi she should have her caricature done.)
Oh come on, you can't blame the gazebo thing on Glenn. I'm thinking that Dan Vebber has been obsessed with doing a gazebo joke ever since he started working on the show. ("Gazebo! I mean, even the word is funny!") He probably pestered Glenn mercilessly, and the poor guy finally caved, with it being the final season and all. Little did he know...
-Mark Steese
I stand corrected. I didn't know who Dan Vebber is. And yes, the word "gazebo" sounds funny. I'm sure many of us still think the gazebo bit was a tad weak and could use another round of writers' revision.
Steve Cross
Mark Steese wrote:
Or at least, they would've written about some other topic -- something that ISN'T made-up nonsense.>>Why should the FC seek legal action against the caricaturist? Because
Probably because she didn't realize that the caricature would be true to their natures -- seems like she should've realized what a caricature might be like. And actually, I probably would've gotten rid of an unflattering caricature, but I wouldn't have tried to get the artist sued -- I probably would've considered it a waste of time.
Belle Book
A voice crying in the wilderness ([email] (Belle Book)) was heard to say in :
W o o ! W o o ! A l l _ a b o a r d _ t h e _ s p o i l e r _ e x p r e s s !
True, and an interesting subject for speculation. Sandi could become a movie critic - she's mean enough. Quinn and Stacy could collaborate on a children's book. Tiffany...well, if the _Daria_ writers can convincingly enlighten Tiffany, I will worship them as gods.
I suspect she did - she only wanted Sandi to get one. (Sandi immediately countered by suggesting that Quinn should get one instead). It was Stacy who came up with the suggestion of getting a group caricature - which makes the denouement more touching, actually.
Notice also that Quinn was mainly upset with the way she was personally portrayed ("He made my face look like one huge freckle!").
Well, sure - I wouldn't have even considered a lawsuit. Breaking his fingers, maybe. Like I said, I'm _very_ thin-skinned.
(Note to all caricaturists: the above paragraph was an exaggeration for humorous purposes.)
-Mark Steese
"Shove it, veggie boy!" -Sandi Griffin
"Mark Steese" wrote in message news:[email]...
Daria
around
wah -
That picture is my Desktop right now!
have
This bit was the ONLY thing I laughed at during the whole show.
Firah
Firah said: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I thought it was a decent episode. In particular, I liked ...
1) Trent's Responsiblity Test - This ep Trent had his responsiblity tested, and got a mixed grade, to wit:
a) He actually got Mystic Spiral together to shoot a video, but b) The moment something went wrong, he went with the herd when they quit, then c) Jane got on his back, and he actually succeeded in finding contractors for the gazebo, but d) was too laid-back to get them to work, then e) Jane got on his back, and he _helped_ them finish the gazebo.
The irony, of course, was that nobody except Wind wanted the gazebo anyway. Note three things about this.
a) Trent _did_ do some hard things successfully, but b) Most of the time, it was at Jane's urging, and c) He still lacks the willpower to follow-through in a timely fashion.
While watching this, it strikes me that Trent is, in terms of effective work capability, exactly like Jake but for the opposite reason. Whereas Jake gets too tense and wound-up, and thus works himself into a state of frenzied helplessness, Trent gets too relaxed and laid-back, and thus lowers himself into a state of lazy helplessness. Trent is less likely to have a heart attack than Jake, but it amounts to the same thing in the end: stuff doesn't get done, unless a beloved woman (Helen or Jane) pushes him into doing it.
2) The Fanfic That Never Was - In a lot of cartoons about teenagers, you'd see the old cliche where Our Hero(ines) discover a dastardly conspiracy and put paid to it ("and I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids"). This has also been done in a lot of Daria fan fiction. Here, Jane fantasized about just such a situation, but it turned out to be nothing but her paranoia at work. Daria's deadpan refusal to believe in it ("to finance his robot army") and deliberately just-off timing ("I am very fascinated by art reproductions. But it seems so simple ...") were classic. (It was also funny that it worked anyway, being delivered as it was by an attractive young woman to a man to whom this was his livelihood and thus fascinating).
3) Jane's Realization - Did you notice the way Jane reacted when Mr. Taylor pointed out the flaws in her work? She first winced, then was obviously at one point trying to avoid outright crying. Jane's very proud of her art, and when she realized that the copying work was prostituting and gradually destroying her own talent, that was a major blow to this pride.
and, to agree with you:
4) The Caricature - The whole joke here was that, not only did the FC miss the meaning of a "caricature," but that the artist captured their apparent (and to some extent real) nature so perfectly. Quinn and Sandi bickering, Tiffany totally clueless, and Stacy as a wide-eyed, good-natured innocent. Stacy, at least, liked the way the artist had seen her :)
"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote:
Tiffany: "It's like...our features...are...exaggerated."
Ring, ring. Pick up the clue phone. More use of Tiffany as the comedic stright man, like in "The Story of D".
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
I didn't think this was the best episode of Season 5, but I've seen worse episodes in that season -- "Fizz Ed" being one of them.
Yes, Trent still needs to improve his responsibility grade. He'd still get a D for responsibility. And it's interesting that only Wind really wanted the gazebo -- and all because his parents wanted him to appreciate his name, so they made up that story about the gazebo.
Well, Jane's artistic creativity was being blocked, so she channelled it into other areas. At least she still had some creativity.
Actually, I think she'd been suspecting it for some time -- Trent and Ms. Defoe were suggesting as much, but it was Mr. Taylor's statement that got her to stop copying.
Definitely Tiffany, Sandi, and Stacy's true natures were captured perfectly by the caricaturist, and to a lesser degree, so was Quinn's. And hey, looks like Stacy's backbone's really beginning to kick in, even if she has to show independence by going behind the others' back!
Belle Book