I have finally gotten to my breaking point in regards to a small subgroup of Daria fandom.
Here is the straw that broke the camel's back, as posted on the LC Message Board:
To which I replied:
I mean everything I said there. In the over a year period since I started Lawndale Commons, I have made some lovely friends, but have also withstood tons of abuse.
Now I understand why all of the great Daria mega-fansites have died. No good deed goes unpunished. You'd better treat Martin Pollard well, because when Outpost Daria dies, that's it.
Michelle Klein-Hass wrote in message news:[email]...
[...]
Well done for taking it for so long, Michelle. You won't consider killing the message board (since that's where the abuse surfaced) and leaving the rest up?
Your contribution to the _Daria_ fan community goes way beyond Lawndale Commons, of course. That's only a part of how you support the show, and you're deeply appreciated by many for all you do.
Michelle, and everyone else who has put themselves on the line for our Daria communnity, THANK YOU. In fact it would be a drab little community without your great efforts. I am truly saddened at this news, because I remember countless times where I turned to Lawndale Commons for help and amusement, where I got both with great hospitality and generosity. Unfortunately, we have some ungrateful people out there who will never really know the true value of all that people do, and that yes, maintaining excellent website such as those previously mentioned do take time and work, something which great webmasters sacrifice for the sake of others. You have my boundless gratitude.
Martin said somthing along the lines of:
I like that idea.
yes yes yes yes yes yes yes!
cheryl barrel christmas carol(that's kinda like a barrel of monkeys!)
Yes you are. Thank you for all you've ever done with Daria, and to all other webmasters/mistresses I can't imagine the work that goes into keeping up a website, never having one myself, but I do appreciate all you people have to go through sometimes, without you all how would some fans wittle away the 6 months of the drought?
Again, thank you Michelle, and a thank you to anyone who has contributed anything to Daria fandom. Except for a scant few, we all appreciate everything you do.
Michelle being "too touchy" is not the issue here, no one who runs a website or message board should have to please anyone any of the time, except themselves.
That being said, how would you like to be talked about (on your own message board) in an insulting manner. I don't blame her for taking the action that she took - it's appropriate, IMO.
I thought that an apology is in order to all of the webmasters who have been subject to this kind of abuse, but I don't think it's my place to apologize for all of the dunderheads who don't feel sorry. So instead, I offer a plea - don't treat the webmasters poorly and they probably will find a way to keep their sites on line.
I agree with Herr MSB on this - having an unmoderated message board on your website is a hostage to fortune. If you choose to have one then you must accept that some people will think it's a great laugh to post abusive comments about *your website* which will then appear on *your website*.
On my site, the comments form just sends the message to me, and then I add it to the messages page on the site when I get round to it. And believe it or not, I've never received an abusive message about my site. It seems to me that the only people who can be bothered to fill out the mailform are those who actually like my site, or have a question to ask. So I think the reason other people get bad messages about their sites is simply because the senders know their comments will automatically appear on the site. It's basically a prank, graffiti, and it's down to the website owner to keep tabs on their message board and remove anything offensive.
I don't agree with those messageboard services that most sites use anyway. How do you think those companies make their money? They harvest the personal data your visitors put in and sell it to spammers. I wouldn't want to be part of such an operation.
i've only received one "abusive" message about my site, which was from someone i'd been arguing with on alt.music.nirvana. i'd criticised them for being immature, and i think their timing and statement (something along the likes of "you're page sux" iirc) proved my point. ;)
one of the few suggestions i've had about my site is that i add a guestbook. i can't be bothered, frankly. ;)
The ones used (or formerly used as the case may be) by the LCMB, Paperpusher's, and Outpost Daria's are all personally hosted, and as such are not open to the sort of abuse you imagine. The ones that scream "Get your free message board here!" on the other hand...
what was done on your board was probably unjust, but it doesn't need to be raised as an issue here. Problems existing outside of alt.tv.daria should stay there.
That's it for what? There are a large number of websites as good as Outpost Daria, although they seem to go unnoticed most of the time. Here, I'll give a few URLs so you all can see the sites so nicely ignored:
Letting us know, maybe, but the post did constitute an attack on people, and Michelle has previously attacked people for events going on outside of this newsgroup HERE; also, the claim of Outpost Daria's superiority to all other Daria sites on the net (which I disagree with, which is why I posted the three URLs to VERY GOOD Daria sites that are not Outpost Daria)
Dagny
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
On 07 Dec 1999 20:51:22 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
One which (The Sounds of Cynicism) is devoted exclusively to Daria sounds, one (In the Beginning...) which hasn't been updated in a long time, and one (Absolute Daria Files) which has long been abandoned by its creators (and which shamelessly stole text and graphics from other sites, including mine, with no acknowledgment or attribution).
Just thought I'd provide a little context for your list...
Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
how can you complain that a site stole stolen material? because it's pretty damn clear that none of us created Daria, so it is all stolen in the first place, getting all mad about property rights after you've just violated someone else's is sort of hypocritical, at least
Dagny
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
Slow down there a minute, I understand your point but I don't see how it applies here. I think we get into trouble when we try to make blanket statements like this (and my my problem here is the phrase "so it is all stolen in the first place," especially the word "all"). Sure, any transcripts and audio/visual files are "stolen," but a lot of the material on Daria-sites is original in that it was created outside of the "official" streams of the show. Take a look at almost any fanfic - no one that has any official capacity with the show has made any direct contribution to it (as far as I know, anyway), and it's only based upon the same characters. Granted, none of it would exist without the show but that doesn't automatically make it "stolen," more like "inspired by..."
Mike
"I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired" - I can't say I know who said that before I did, but I'm sure they did
On 09 Dec 1999 00:07:27 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
You may have a point with regards to images, but not to text that I created from scratch. When someone else steals my text, word for word, without bothering to ask permission or to even acknowledge its source, I tend to take offense. I didn't create "Daria," but I *DID* create most of the text on my site (the character bios in particular), and stealing it for your own use without permission or attribution is just plain wrong. Does that clear it up a little bit?
Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:34:14 -0500, Martin J. Pollard wrote:
It's not only wrong. It's illegal, too. Dagny seems to confuse trademarks and copyrights. MTV has Daria trademarked which gives them certain rights (especially the right to disallow use of characters or theme songs without permission). The trademark registration does not, however, give MTV any copyrights to material created by others. If I draw my own Daria picture and put it on the net, I am the copyright holder and if MTV takes my picture and puts it on their site, they are stealing it and I can sue them for copyright infringement. They may however be able to disallow me from publishing my pic for trademark reasons. But this is a tricky subject as it also touches the freedom of expression issue (it's about an artist who wants to publish his work, after all). It really gets difficult if I want to sell my art pieces or have a commercial exhibition, although I believe that the constitutional rights of the artist will win in court. But I got distracted. The point is that from the copyright standpoint, original content is not stolen, even if it is based on a registered trademark character. MSB (who is not a lawyer and doesn't guarantee this is correct)
But most Daria sites on the 'net (including outpost daria) take graphics directly from the TV show or the official books, and, even though they may be altered, those pictures are still copyrighted by MTV. Writing about the characters would not violate copyright, and yes, you would hold the copyright. However, I just went through about half the character profiles at Outpost Daria and Absolute Daria Files before getting totally bored at finding nothing, and besides having the same information that can be taken from the books (age, etc.) the descriptions are totally different. They touch on some of the same things, but who wouldn't?
Dagny
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
On 10 Dec 1999 20:33:58 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
Thinking about it, Dagny, I never brought up the subject of copyright. I mentioned taking graphics and text from another site to use on one's own, and that's a different subject altogether (one which you have basically ignored with this tangental discussion of copyrights and trademarks). In my case, the images were not created by me, but I *DID* go through all the work of scanning them in (or capturing them from video) and touching them up via various graphics utilities. Taking these images for one's own site may not be "stealing" in the legal sense, but it *IS* capitalizing on someone else's hard work (mine, in this case), and to do so without any sort of permission or acknowledgment is definitely wrong in the moral sense.
Perhaps you need to look harder. Check the pages for the Fashion Club, the Three J's, the LHS faculty, Andrea, Jesse, Mack, Jodie, Upchuck, and Brittany. I guess that they either (A) went through Kevin and got bored, and decided to just scam others' text, or (B) started replacing their scammed text with their own, but only got to Kevin before becoming bored (or decided to abandon the site). In either case, they *ARE* guilty of scamming MY text for THEIR site without permission or acknowledgment, and that, in my view, is lower than low.
Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
I disagree -- I think anything that is Daria-related, whether it deals with this newsgroup or not, needs to be brought to our attention. I am dismayed that we are about to lose yet another fine website. It was just over a year ago that we lost Planet Daria, and I'm still experiencing the void caused by the loss of alt.lawndale.com and especially Wraith's Sick Sad World. Michelle has published some of the best Daria fanfics in webdom. I have read these stories in silent rapture for over a year; however, I fear my silence has not been so golden -- I should've made my appreciation & encouragement known earlier.
Michelle, if you really are thinking of shutting down LC, let me offer you a belated but heartfelt thanks for your work, and not just for the fanfics, but for untiring work in keeping on top of MTV -- the audio glitches, website hose-ups, & most importantly alerting us to the potential peril of Season 5 not making the airwaves.
But just how long will THEY last? Among my AOL bookmarks I have a folder full of defunct Daria websites, including the three aforementioned. The list of defunct or inactive sites in this folder has grown to about 50 in the last six months! It takes a lot of time & sometimes money to keep these websites up. If I received even a fraction of the flames that I've seen on their message boards, I'd be tempted to say "F**k it, I quit!" too. As a result, I have indefinitely postponed plans for my own site.
I'd hate to think that we lose Daria fans whenever we lose Daria sites, because such a travesty would not bode well for the survival of the show. I've come to view fan sites and _Daria_ as having a symbiotic relationship, each entity as mutually beneficial to the other. Daria episodes nourish the fansites; the fansites alert fans to developments in the show (FAR better than MTV does). And just what would sustain us during drout periods such as this? Fan sites help keep interest in the show alive, and introduce new viewers to the show. (It was some off-season viewings of sites like Lawndale Commons & Forlorn Dungeon that got some of my friends hooked on the show when Season 3 aired).
Bottom line: we need to give some props to Michelle and ALL the webmasters/mistresses. As Michelle said in one of her essays, "Say Thank You instead of F**k You" once in a while. If you have to criticize, say it constructively & avoid useless and asinine flaming. If your parents taught you "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all," I'm probably preaching to the choir. Otherwise, just know this: a little civility can go a LOOOOONG way. If y'all will remember that, I'll probably never have to post another rant like this again.
(And BTW, if C.E. Foreman is reading this, I read your most recent essay over T'giving. What I'm saying to Michelle goes for you, too => THANX!!!!!!!!)
(And thanx to Paperpusher, and Austin, & Peter, & Invisigoth Gypsy, and all those who put a lot of blood sweat & tears-- that you don't have to expend -- because of a common love for an extraordinary cartoon!!!!!)
On 07 Dec 1999 05:22:47 GMT, [email] (Cricket) wrote:
I don't really understand this. Why link the fate of a site to a message board? Everyone knows that message boards attract trouble. Web message boards and guestbooks are simply too easy to use and scribble on. Of course they attract losers. If your message board required an application for posting rights (granted with a cookie or a code passed to a cgi-script via the URL), those guys would not be a problem. You could use a Daria IQ test to test applicants. You would not even have to evaluate the score. Anyone who bothers to take it is unlikely to be a sucker. MSB
On 07 Dec 1999 00:43:19 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
Baloney. alt.tv.daria doesn't live in a vacuum; any issue regarding Daria is fair game for this newsgroup... and web sites certainly fall into this category. Besides, given the endless number of completely off-topic messages that constantly litter this newsgroup, saying that something "doesn't belong" is hilarious at best.
Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
i think it was good of her to tell us it was going, but the rest of the post was just there to cause a big fuss as far as i can see. "gratitude"? i don't understand that. i don't know why she thinks website owners should receive it. Lawndale Commons was an excellent site but that implies that she was only running it for approval. so i don't get it.
"endless, nameless" wrote in message news:[email]...
What other reason is there for running a web site but approval? You may not get tangible feedback but I can't see any reason for bothering if you're not hoping to reach out and bond with your fellow Darianites.
for yourself? i'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it if i stuck pictures of naked women all over my site, but that doesn't mean i will. an owner of a daria site should be running it because he/she likes the show and likes making websites, not because other people like the show and want to visit websites about it.
"endless, nameless" wrote in message news:[email]...
may
if
If you were only interested in your own enjoyment you wouldn't put it up where everyone in the world can see it. You could create your own works and keep them all to yourself right on your own computer. It would save a lot of trouble and expense. No, someone who puts up a Daria web site is wanting to connect to the world.
And don't worry, I know where to go to see pictures of naked women. That's pretty well covered. ...Or uncovered.
Because it's fun? Because most of the folks I've met through "Daria" fandom (I know, I hate that word too, but it fits) are different from the average folks? Because I *like* doing what I can to help them out? Because I find the vast majority of them to be much more interesting than the folks I've met on the 'net up till now? Because I know I can post on most Daria-related boards and NGs and *not* get instantly flamed for being silly? There are a bunch more reasons, but I think that that expresses it best for me.
Maybe I do want to meet people with other interests, but if I do, then I'll put up a different site. In fact, I'm already working on one, but I don't have the domain registered yet, and I wouldn't want to spoil the surprise. ;-)
If hits are all you're after, then just put up a porn site. It's the only segment of the whole 'net that's making a profit, and there are plenty of folks who are interested in it. "Sex" is still the most searched-for word on the 'net, and those sorts of sites consistently have the highest traffic. But I'm not interested in meeting meeting these obsessive porn-hunters, as they're kinda creepy, and I've already got a GF. ;-)
hope this enlightens a bit... but just a bit ;-) rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
So, the ultimate site would feature a pornographic soap opera about NASCAR drivers?
Or naked soap opera stars driving racecars?
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
"endless, nameless" wrote in message news:[email]...
You
bothering
Darianites.
it up
works
save
site
Well of course you could put up a site to connect to people who aren't Daria fans, but who gives a damn about them? If you're going to connect to the world you might as well connect to that part of the world you have something in common with.
But there is something that has to be acknowledged about putting up any kind of web site: You're dealing with the public. Some of the public are nice, many are appreciative--even if they don't leave a "thank you" note. And some of the public are not so nice. When you have a web site I suspect you may learn things about the public usually only discovered by people who work in retailing and food service--things that no sensitive person should learn about his fellow man. It can be quite a disillusioning thing to discover that some human beings are simply jerks. What's even more upsetting is when that fact causes someone to withdraw from displaying their web site. I hate it when the jerks win.
i might be getting a job at a hotel soon. oh the customers will love me, they will. i am unfortunately unable to refrain from telling people to fuck off if they're nasty, so i predict that i won't be working there for long, provided even that i can act polite for long enough to get the job in the first place. ;)
the jerks always win, because everyone's a jerk (even the website owners), although some people are 'jerkier' than others. it would appear that the people who caused michelle to take down her website are bigger jerks than most.
"endless, nameless" wrote in message news:[email]...
any
are
site I
discovered by
sensitive
You do have a...umm...strong personality alright. I don't know how to advise you on this one. You sometimes have to subvert your natural urges to get along with people and in a service job that can be a real challenge. If only I could manage that myself. Maybe you can take advice from Daria: Look on it as a chance to look into other people's lives and see what screwed-up taste they have. Take a Polaroid. If you can stick with the job you'll have an endless supply of jokes and anecdotes about the stupidity and frailties of other people. You'll be quite the hit at parties.
to
win.
If Jerk is defined as an annoyingly stupid or foolish person, then I'd say no, everyone's not a jerk, particulary not website owners, and definitely not you, Alli. Of the terms I might think of to describe you, stupid or foolish never make the cut, nor jerk. Jerks are the kinds of people that Daria has to deal with, how ironic that such people would result in Michelle taking down her website.
You say it like they were the direct causation, which they weren't. Jerks did not cause Michelle to take down her website. Jerks caused Michelle's feelings to be hurt, which caused her to take down the website. That is an important distinction.
Kyle, he who means well The Manny Alexander of alt.sports.baseball.chicago.cubs Manny Check: Still In The Majors
my friend works there. she suggested that i apply, and then said that if i get a job there i'm to punch some guy who works there for her, because he keeps hitting on her and she doesn't like him. ;) i can see i'd really last in this job, yeah. ;)
imho everyone is annoyingly stupid or foolish some of the time.
well thank you. :)
out of interest, were the people in question fans of daria or just random, errr, jerks?
Reminds me of my 4 hour job at Subway. I think I was 15 or so, and a big umm "pothead". My friend thought it would be a good idea for me to work there, you know munchies and all. They helped get me the job and I started right away with basically no training. The first rule was "the customer is always right", and to keep smiling. Anyhow, my first customer was a snobbish heavy set woman. She came in and asked for a foot long turkey on white with the works. So I start making the sub and half way through, she stops me and says she wants it on wheat. So I make the sub again, and she changes her mind after telling me she didn't want mayo on it. This continues for about 15 minutes and 4 more wasted subs. Then she snapped at me. So of course, I snapped back at her, threw the sub at her, and told her "you can make your own god damn sub you fat bitch!" and I quit right there. Of course I would have gotten fired had I waited to catch the slack from the manager. People can really suck sometimes.
The moral of this? Never work at a place which requires that you cateor to a persons specific needs if you're short tempered. Even if the place does have good "munchies". ;)
This could be a problem in any form of customer relations work.
Or any kind of work ... :)
Sincerely Yours, Jordan
"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)
Ooh, the library! Meeting place for all the terrorists and pedophiles in the small town of Fremont (which is, BTW, a lot like the Fremont in "Speedtrapped", except with more baby food (Gerber is there)), according to the letters to the editor... now that they are installing the Internet, that is. Of course why he
1.) assumed there were pedophiles and terrorists in Fremont in the first place 2.) didn't see a problem with this per se
is beyond me. eh, people.
Dagny
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 13:54:24 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:
That is a really good point. It applies to most non-commercial websites, I'd even say it applies to most non-commercial projects in general. In the beginning, working on your project is fun and exciting but after a while (length depending on your enthusiasm) the work is just work and the fun is gone. From that point you need a motivation to go on. If the project is of no practical use to yourself this motivation has to come from the audience the project is aimed at. Unfortunately, people who like what they see are a lot less likely to comment than people who don't like it. I confess that I'm guilty of that, too. I love Outpost Daria and I've looked at all the transcripts and fan art but have I ever mailed a little Thank You message? No. Neither have I complimented the excellent artists who provided the fan art. Granted, I have only the plain Netscape that doesn't do email so I can't simply click on the mailto: links but I'm not sure if having that capability would change anything. Everyone who works on a non-commercial project must face it. Explicit gratitude is a very rare commodity. Just think of all the freeware programs I'm sure everyone here uses. How many thank you emails have you written to the programmers of that software? MSB
On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 13:54:24 +0000, "endless, nameless" wrote:
Actually, the way I understood it was that it was there to provide a context for her announcement. Inflammatory or no, I highly doubt it was to intentionally cause any sort of fuss.
Perhaps "appreciation" would be a more appropriate term. Those of us who put up a web site do so with our own time (and money), as much for the enjoyment of others as for ourselves (because after all, if you didn't intend to share it with the world, why are you putting it on the web in the first place?). You don't have to be grateful that webmasters do this, but showing some appreciation for their efforts every now and then wouldn't hurt. (You know, "thank you" instead of "fuck you," as Michelle so eloquently said in one of her essays.)
We aren't faceless automatons, after all; we're just as human as the rest of you, and if something we do brings some enjoyment into your lives, we wouldn't mind hearing that. Otherwise, why bother going on with it? I think that's the gist of Michelle's message, lost though it may be among the more immediate issue.
Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
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Outpost Daria: Your Online Database for All Things Daria!
http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
well, I don't think the idea that gratitude is *owed* is a good one in any context. You can give gratitude (as some people have with my site, although a few of those people say bizarre things although they mean well "I'm glad you're not a baggy pants wearing teen" whatever that means) but you cannot say gratitude is owed. The fact is the Internet is a free medium. You get a free chance to publish and get whatever you have to say across. Everyone else has a right to look at it- free. They don't owe you anything, not even gratitude.
Some people have acted wrongly on the message board on Lawndale Commons. That's a pretty damn stupid thing to do and I'll say they were assholes. The reason this is inappropriate to be posted on this newsgroup, however, is not its lack of relationship to Daria but the fact that it is largely hateful and accusative in nature.
Dagny
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9441/
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
On 09 Dec 1999 00:16:42 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:
What made Michelle shut down her site wasn't a lack of gratitude, but ongoing personal attacks related to her moderation of the LCMB (which, like the Outpost Daria message board was a *moderated* community, with posters clearly *guests* on the board. If you don't want it moderated, post here for all and sundry to see your messages). Keeping up a web page is *work*, and requires an investment in time (and often in hardware and software as you try to make it as good as possible) as well as money (to use a quality webspace provider so you don't have to put up with the foibles of the free services). Gratitude is nice - and useful for prolonging the time before the webmaster burns out, but flames make *me* want to throw my hands up in disgust and tell everyone to fuck off.
As well as explaining the reason why Lawndale Commons, one of the last of the "Old Guard" Daria sites is going down. MsGeek's actions are (IMO) above reproach, though I mourn the circumstances that lead to this.
i can understand why she shut down her site and i have sympathy for her because no-one likes flames. i don't know whether the flames were justified (as far as one can justify flaming) or not, but all the same it's unpleasant. i do think complaints about lack of gratitude are invalid, though.
On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:57:51 -0500, Martin J. Pollard wrote:
OK, I'm with you there...
...but then you lost me. How is equating the contents of this group with garbage different from when that person called Michelle "der furher"? I find both pretty insulting. Most people have been supportive to Michelle in this thread. Why insult the whole group because you don't agree with Dagny? How can we go on and be supportive of you and your web site when you repeatedly insult a huge source of your site's traffic? I hope you can one day see atd for what it is; a group of intelligent and interesting individuals and not some sort of vast off-topic landfill.
<relurking for another couple of months> Happydude
Hey Happydude-- GTSY/LTNS. Sorry I'm gonna have to disagree with you, but it doesn't mean I'm not glad to see ya. ;-)
[email] (Brian Thomason) wrote:
<snippage>
Um, actually, I don't think Martin ever referred to the contents of this NG as "garbage" per se. "Littered" apparently meant "strewn."
The real point is that this NG can get wildly off-topic at the drop of a glove (or even smaller, lighter garments)-- and that's fine with me, as I learn a lot about y'all that way. BUT, for anyone to claim that Michelle's post isn't "on-topic" for this NG is simply silly. We all know that on this NG, anything is pretty much fair game, and for the most part, people are tolerant of that. It's just that attacking her post as "not relevant" is just plain ridiculous, IMO. What's next? Attacking the attack squirrels? Attacking Fresh Fish? Is nothing sacred anymore? ;-)
As for the discussion of specific personalities, well, that's another topic. Personally, the way I see it, if it's published, it's published, and therefore fair game. The inflammatory message was posted on a forum that anyone could read, so I don't see why it's such a big crime to post it on another forum. Email is something else entirely, of course, but this was NOT an email. But anyway, Martin P. is right-- *nothing* exists in a vacuum.
probably going to regret posting this in the end... rich.
Jane: You know, I don't know why people say we have a bad attitude.
On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:20:34 GMT, [email] (paperpusher) wrote:
noted. When he used the word "littered" it conjured images of a newsgroup covered in cigarette butts and fast-food wrappers.
You may have misunderstood me (most self-proclaimed geniuses are misunderstood :-) ). I completly agree with Martin's point about Michelle's post being on-topic. I'm glad she told us what was going on and why she was shutting it down (remember how it felt when Planet Daria went down with so little warning?) I'm also glad that she reposted what was said on her message board that led to her shutting it down. I hope LC stays around in some form. Because of Michelle's efforts the audio glitches on the daily dose were fixed and a letter-writing campaign succeded in getting us another season.
What I did object to was Martin's use of the word "littered" in respect to the group as a whole. I agree with the rest of his post
It's the regret train...woo woo, get on board. Happydude
What? A misunderstanding on ATD? Say it ain't so! ;-) I guess I did sort of latch on to the littered thing... actually, though, after that, I was addressing other posts. Miscommunication on my part, I guess. That's par for the course today. *Sigh* I won't be sorry to see this day end. ;-)
Precisely. ;-)
Well, alright then. ;-)
can i blow the whistle just one more time before i go back to shovelin' coal? ;-)
On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 19:52:23 GMT, [email] (Brian Thomason) wrote:
Well, I know from reading ahead that you pretty much agreed with my message. :-) However, I wanted to clear up a few points, just so that there were no misunderstandings.
Because I didn't use "litter" in the sense of "garbage." I used it in the sense of "strewn about," as in a great many off-topic messages. I was not in any way calling them trash, and I was not insulting the group as a whole. I am sorry if you interpreted it in that fashion.
Consequently, I hope that, one day, you can wait and get all the facts first before blindly assuming something that turns out not to be the case. You won't be chewing on as many feet that way. :-)
Martin
(send all e-mail to "[email]")
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http://www.lawndale.net -OR- http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/
On the mountaintop, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) spake thusly:
Well, Michelle, from this excerpt I can understand why you did what you did, but know that this is _not_ all of the Daria fan community. It is a small portion that needs to be taken out and given lessons on gratitude, perhaps, but _surely_ not all of us. And thank you, for running LC and the message board for the time that you did, and all the services you've provided for the Daria fan community. I'm going to take this moment to also thank Martin Pollard (who's been taking way too much crap from certain corners about suddenly having a life) for running Outpost Daria, my personal fave for Daria fansites. And thanks to everyone else who has every had a Daria fansite, written a fanfic or a letter to producers, or contributed to Daria in any way. I appreciate ya, and I know that others do.
-Mindy
"Daria, you're giving me a headache!!" -Quinn Morgendorffer, "Daria"
Dcode: Ap D+ T7 Wl Q++ Fn^Fr O- Or+Os+Od m-- c MV-- C5X F:101,308 BBd FCJ -DT-- q fJ^fM^fO(Artie :-P) Find the Daria Geek Code at http://www.geocities.com/TelevisonCity/Taping/3017/
On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 15:02:54 -0800, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:
<snip stuff about leaving>
Oh dear. Another one bites the dust :(
To tell you the truth Michelle, I tried to get into the whole Lawndale Commons community a long time ago, but as I read more of the messages I got more and more disenchanted. The level of pettiness and immaturity shown on the board really surprised me. I'd like to believe those were isolated incidents but I guess not.. since you're leaving and all.
Thanks a lot Michelle, for doing all that you could to keep it alive. It's a shame that it's gone, but it's probably for the best. Here's to all the great Daria sites out there for doing all they can for Daria fandom. I sincerely hope Martin J Pollard will stay, and I hope rich will stay too.
We still have Outpost Daria. We still have alt.tv.daria. Appreciate it folks, or they'll go too.