It's spoiler time...look out! 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 BZZZZTT! Time's up, Mr. Van Doren. For $100,000, what is your response?
Well. "The Old and the Beautiful". It wasn't really a bad episode...but it wasn't really very good either. There was some nice characterization of Ms. Li; calling attention to herself to the extreme, even to the point of calling a school-wide assembly basically for the sole purpose of calling attention to herself. In fact, I'd say her scenes were among the best in the episode. Kevin's confusion between senior citizens and high-school seniors was good, too. The theme of the episode was what left a question mark hovering above my head. Why was Daria so bothered by the seniors being repulsed by her voice? I mean, anyone would be a bit preturbed that their voice would drive an old man to suicide, but I didn't really see the point of Daria going to Quinn for advice...and then Brittany (!) for perky lessons to help her in a job she didn't really care for, other than to fill a half-hour (or twenty minutes) of air time. And for God's sake, Brittany has one of the most GRATING voices ever concocted for an animated TV show! Then there was the Fashion Club subplot, which was funny to a point, but it just got old by their third or fourth scene. Notes: Quinn proved to have more of a conscience than Sandy, Stacy has a very unfashionable nail-biting habit ("Ewwwwww!"). We got to see some new background characters, and see some old things resurface (Is Daria writing a whole Melody Powers series?). That was all right....Britt's Dad was sort of funny. Well, this came out sounding more negative than I really felt about the episode. Maybe I need to view it again tomorrow, or over Spring break (Hell, I'm not going to Cancun or anything...), but this episode just didn't really register with me. Left me feeling...I dunno...indifferent. Empty, almost. Well, that's plenty of whining for this week. I feel better. Thank God for DejaNews.
--Tice
****************************************
Things to do:
Take the time to reach out to someone...
...and strangle them.
I agree with you. I give this episode a C-. It just isn't consistent. Daria's whole character is based on not caring what other people think of her, so why should she start now? And going to Brittany for help? You're right- completely improbable.
I loved T.a.L.D. by the way, I gave that an A... a classic episode.
Oh well, I'm sure they'll redeem themselves with the next one. Hey, wait, was that optimism?
On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 00:03:17 -0500, [email] (Adam) wrote:
BZZZZZZ, wrong! Daria's character is NOT based on not caring what people think of her. Unless Season 2 never aired in your area, you should have noticed that Daria just likes people to think that she doesn't care. You are sentenced to watch "Through A Lens, Darkly" 100 times, then be slapped with a wet trout.
___
Kyle
You wanna come over here and say that? Oh, you do? I was kinda hopin you'd back off, so nevermind.
Another Nugget Of Wisdom from the Wonderful World Of Kyle(TM)
Yeah, you're absolutely right, I typed before thinking. There has been overwhelming evidence that she cares about how she is perceived, esp. in TALD and Quinn the Brain. Up until this season, however, she has done a very good job of convincing people otherwise.
But, this realization still doesn't clear up my confusion about Daria's motives...
We've just seen Daria go to Quinn for advice, and now to <gasp> Brittany. My question is: why them? Even if she cares about how people see her, I cannot believe that she honestly thinks these people have anything to offer her in the way of advice. Daria knows they are both popular in a 100% superficial way, because of their aesthetics.
spoiler space s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s
My question is: why them? << Adam
Because they know how to make people like them on first impression. Daria doesn't. The only people who ever liked her on first meeting were Jane and Trent. As for asking Jane, she did and Jane had no useful advice. Jane isn't all that great at making good first impressions either, anyway.
Daria was desperate because for the first time she realized that it wasn't just a "high school" problem but could affect her in other areas of life as well.
their aesthetics. <<
Brittany actually *is* a nice person. Quinn is incredibly good at making people like her. Quinn is almsot as smart as Daria, but directs all her mental energy into being popular.
On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:16:00 -0500, [email] (Adam) wrote:
<lotza Spolier Space>
Perhaps she's not completely convinced. After all, I'm not. Brit isn't popular entirely because of her looks, she's popular because she's head cheerleader. She got that position partially because of her looks, but also because of her naturally _perkey_ nature (like it or not). Perhaps Daria thought it's something that can be taught, or learned or something. But, in the end, I think you're right. That scen with Daria trying to do "the squeak" just didn't look right.
And then there's Quinn. She's very clearly a schemer, and a confident one, though not confident to shake up the pecking order in the FS. She seems like she COULD be intelligent, if she were completely socially isolated (I, for one, think she actually DID start reading "The Illiad" in the Big House, though it put her to sleep). All her skill has gone into fashion, and she clearly understands the concept better than Sandy, who is enslaved to the magazines, and has no ideas of her own. Daria seeking her advice in TaLD made sense to me, though the manner in which she asked, didn't. But then again, verbal communication with people of more limited language skills isn't exactly her strong point.
Oh, I'm sorry, but I just had to say that that scene cracked me up. I realize it was a bit contrived, but hearing Daria try to imitate Brit's speech patterns was priceless, IMO.
she's head cheerleader. She got that position partially because of her looks, but also because of her naturally _perkey_ nature (like it or not). <<
She's nice, too. If Brittany were nasty, she'd have a lot of enemies (especially among the girls) *because* of her looks. Ever notice that Jane acts somewhat jealous of her?
something. <<
Exactly.
"the squeak" just didn't look right. <<
No, <grinning in remembrance> she just looked silly and phony trying to be Brittany. Bet she'd hate if Trent had seen her doing that routine!
shake up the pecking order in the FS. <<
Not yet. She's newer in town, remember.
isolated (I, for one, think she actually DID start reading "The Illiad" in the Big House, though it put her to sleep). All her skill has gone into fashion, and she clearly understands the concept better than Sandy, who is enslaved to the magazines, and has no ideas of her own. <<
Yes. I think she also believes in some of the ideals, too, which is sad in a way. Sandi purely uses them as an excuse to get the rest of the FC to follow her.
which she asked, didn't. But then again, verbal communication with people of more limited language skills isn't exactly her strong point. <<
Daria has trouble dealing with emotional communications, probably because she has trouble dealing with her own emotions. She doesn't understand other people very well on an intuitive level, which is why she devotes a lot of intellectual effort to understanding them. This is common in a budding writer.
A crutch may well have been one of the first tools made by Man. And Daria needs an intellectual crutch to understand what most of her contemporaries understand emotionally. Fortunately for herself, she's a very smart girl.
simply for superficial reasons. They're nasty, they're catty, they're always willing to sling an insult or two. << Chris Seamans
And Jane's nastier than Daria. As witness their respective dealings with Brittany, Jodie, and other secondary characters in the series. Daria sometimes makes an effort to understand; Jane usually just acts hostile.
I also think that Jane is very jealous of anyone who tries to be friendly to Daria (except Trent, of course). Keep in mind, Daria is pretty much Jane's only friend (she likes Jesse, of course, but we've seen that she has trouble communicating with him).
Yeah, but usually the intended target earns the comment. I don't think either of them would ever attack an Innocent. It's just not sporting. <g> I don't know about you, but having people remind me all day that I'm not popular would tend to make sour me towards popular types.
Of course, Jane has spent a lot more time in Lawndale than Daria has, and has known some of these people a lot longer. Maybe she has good reasons for acting that way towards some of them. That's just more backstory we'd need to know. (HINT, HINT) ;-)
Actually, I've noticed (and others have commented on this as well) that Jane is much more open to trying new things, new experiences, and is more willing to give people she doesn't know yet a chance. Jane gave both Bobby Big-Head and Evan a chance, but both turned out ot be jerks, she tried to bond with Jesse, and he turned out to be pretty darn thick. But she doesn't seem to be deterred by these failures. Daria, OTOH, tends to play it safe and generally distrusts everyone, which is what works for her. (But it's not recommended as a good long-term strategy, unless you like cats. <g>)
Part of Jane's isolation may have something to do with the fact that she's very involved in her art as well-- something that she has in common with Daria-- a sort of a "kindred spirit" sort of thing. Let's face it-- the other students we've seen at LHS aren't what I'd call "right-brained." <g> It must've been difficult for Jane to be talented and isolated there before Daria showed up.
Jesse has trouble communicating, period. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Jane realized that in #205, and she'd alerady moved on to try greener pastures by #211. (Of course, the shippers haven't seemed to notice this. <g>)
All of that said, it's really tough to try to peg any of the main characters in a sentence, let alone a paragraph, and that's why I really enjoy the show-- the characters may be animated, but they're definitely complex personalities-- hardly 2-D.
either of them would ever attack an Innocent. It's just not sporting. <g> << Rich
True. But to an outside observer, who isn't privy to their intimate conversations, this may not be obvious. This is probably why Andrea (for example) doesn't come over and talk to them, she may be afraid that they'll make fun of her. Even though she's one person they'd probably get along quite well with, from what I've seen of her.
popular would tend to make sour me towards popular types. <<
It did to me when I was in their (Daria and Jane's) position. I understand their behavior quite well, including their loyalty towards each other.
has known some of these people a lot longer. Maybe she has good reasons for acting that way towards some of them. That's just more backstory we'd need to know. (HINT, HINT) ;-) <<
I agree. And there's a lot of stuff in Jane's past (especially relating to her oddball family) which cruel children WOULD make fun of.
is much more open to trying new things, new experiences, and is more willing to give people she doesn't know yet a chance. <<
To an extent. She's wilder and more of a risk-taker than Daria, but she's also less tolerant of little things. Daria's much more conservative, but more tolerant of anything that doesn't offend her ethical sensitivities.
is what works for her. (But it's not recommended as a good long-term strategy, unless you like cats. <g>) <<
Depends ... Daria's shown signs of being able to bond with people after she knows them a while. And Daria's approach is less likely to get her pregnant, among other things.
very involved in her art as well-- something that she has in common with Daria-- a sort of a "kindred spirit" sort of thing. Let's face it-- the other students we've seen at LHS aren't what I'd call "right-brained." <g> It must've been difficult for Jane to be talented and isolated there before Daria showed up. <<
Yes, I've noticed.
drawer. <<
It's been suggested to me by a friend that Jesse isn't as dumb as he looks; he may be slow-witted but generally come to good conclusions. Unfortunately Jane and Jesse are opposites that way ... Jane is quick-witted but often impulsively leaps to bad conclusions. This may prevent the romance shown in a couple eps from ever getting anywhere. I'm not sure it ever ended, there's no evidence they were ever going steady.
Jane has a good chance to end up as an art snob. She's that way, she's got little tolerance for people.
Daria's got high standards, but I think as she learns that even she herself can't keep up with her own high standards she's going to relax a bit.
to
only
I see it as the other way around! Maybe I missed something, but Daria's the one who got extremely jealous ("See Jane Run"). I think Jane, on the other hand, is a good candidate to get a boyfriend and leave Daria in the dust to some extent (it was touched on in "See Jane Run"). She was willing to leave Daria alone in hostile territory to get a piece of action in "The Invitation," and the boy runner in "SJR" seemed to be one of the reasons for her to start blowing Daria off.
Or a very lonely and bitter woman, if she doesn't learn to deal with people better. So far she's shown no ability to connect with anyone but Trent and Daria on any long-term basis. Daria's actually shown a superior capacity to make friends. One difference being that I think people can sense that Daria is basically benevolent, under her shell.
There was one (short) fanfic written on the premise that Jane had become famous but alienated, and was a major fruitcake. She was being interviewed and it was revealed that she was bizarre to a degree that would make Madonna look well-balanced.
Yep.
can't keep up with her own high standards she's going to relax a bit. <<
And as she does, she'll make friends easier. She'll find that not everyone who isn't perfect is necessarily evil. There are already signs that people around her like her, and would be her friends if she let them.
one who got extremely jealous ("See Jane Run"). <<
Missed that one, but of course Daria's jealousy doesn't exclude Jane's. And Daria seems better balanced emotionally to me.
leave Daria in the dust to some extent (it was touched on in "See Jane Run"). She was willing to leave Daria alone in hostile territory to get a piece of action in "The Invitation," and the boy runner in "SJR" seemed to be one of the reasons for her to start blowing Daria off. <<
Jane's a good candidate to get a boyfriend, and lose him, and get another, etc. So far I've seen no sign that Jane is at all competent at dealing with boys, the situation with them is 1 to 1 as regards getting taken advantage of by a boy (Daria in "The New Kid"). Making out in a closet with a stranger is not a sign of social skills, not on the girl's part. Quite the opposite, it implies that Jane is desperately lonely.
Daria's mooning over Trent may be painful to her, and it may be a major source of comedy, but at least she is mooning over someone who actually likes her (albiet perhaps non-romantically) and has gone out of his way to hang out with her on at least one occasion. She's too shy to press the issue, but at least she has the right idea: like someone who likes her back. This is actually a pretty healthy approach to the opposite sex, for a naive little misery chick.
On the mountaintop, [email] (JBassior) spake thusly:
<snip of interesting stuff>
That's Genius or Clay Poisoning?: Q&A with Jane Lane, which can be found on Outpost Daria at http://systech.simplenet.com/daria/pd/f37.txt . (I told you I read too much fanfic... <g>)
-Mindy Too lazy to type my .sig after two hours of shoveling snow
Actually, Daria cares quite a bit what other people think of her. She's always cared about what people thought of her. She just doesn't care in the same way. There are very few episodes that *don't* show her worrying what other people think about her.
"Monster" - If she didn't care what other people think of her, she would have made the *real* expose of Quinn.
"Quinn the Brain" - Here we see Daria at her most shallow. We see that Daria not only cares what other people think of her, but she actually to some extent thrives on it.
"Through a Lens, Darkly" - She appears to be quiet worried what other people think of her. If she truly wasn't worried, she would have just gotten contacts and moved on. In fact, ultimately, it's a rather weird episode. She's worried that if she wears contacts other people will think she's sold out and has begun worrying about what people think of her.
"Pierce Me" and "The Road Worriers" - She cares what Trent thinks of her, at any rate. ;^)
"The Misery Chick" - She cares quite a bit that people perceive her as a "misery chick."
She really does care about how she's perceived.
I wasn't too enamored with tonight's episode because it was just so, well, all over the place. There was no real focus and I didn't care one way or the other about the whole situation. Ms. Li is usually a good character to contrive a reason for an episode, but it just seemed awfully hollow after seeing it so many times before.
A further annoyance: It seemed kind of like they were dumbing down Ms. Li for no apparent reason. It's easy to see why Ms. Li acts the way she acts... we don't need it spelled out to us (then again, maybe the audience does, I don't know precisely who the shows targeted to).
The fashion club subplot also seemed so damned contrived. So did Jane's arts & crafts class. The team behind the show just seemed to be going through the motions on this one, and exploiting the stereotypes for cheap laughs.
(Sorry about this/my reply may be too long/you've been warned again.)
I'll have to disagree to a point... she's sometimes concerned with what people think, but that's never been the primary reason for anything she's done. Her primary motives are usually morally-grounded, and that's the main reason why I like the show so much-- she does what she does not because it's popular, but because it's the ethical thing to do.
She didn't care what people thought of her-- she just didn't want to be mean to Quinn out of pity for her. "You know that conscience I don't have-- it got to me."
Daria was mad because Quinn got more attention for being intelligent once than Daria got for being intelligent all the time, and the attention Quinn got was simply based on the fact that Quinn was attractive and popular, while Daria refused to rely on superficial means to define herself.
It's not shallow, IMO to be mad that someone gets credit for something undeserved. (And Quinn most certainly did not deserve the credit she got-- she admitted as much-- she was only doing it to irritate Daria.) Daria only did what she did to prove a point-- that she could be just as attractive and popular as Quinn, if Quinn wished to keep up the charade.
Again, that's not entirely true. Yes, at first she is concerned that others will think that she's a sell-out (they don't, and that irritates her even more, I think), but the real reason she keeps the glasses has nothing to do with what others think of her. She feels that by being an outsider, by wearing glasses, she can look at others objectively, and see who they *really* are. She goes from being concerned about what others think of her back to her usual state of not caring what others think of her, and making sure she is true to herself.
"I know my glasses set me apart. When I look in the mirror without them, I can't see a thing. But when I put them on and look in the mirror again I think ... I think to myself, 'Never mind the glasses. You can see things that other people can't. You can see better than other people. So to hell with them and what they think of you and your glasses.'" [Jane: "You're not talking about eyesight anymore, are you?"] "No."
Well, I can't really argue that one. But it's a different sort of thing. She didn't go on the trip or get pierced because she cared what others thought, she did it because she wanted to -- she had a little motivation, IYW. ;-)
I'lll have to qualify that one as well. She's mad because they don't understand who she is-- she doesn't care if they ignore her or don't like her, she just wants them to understand that she's not miserable, she's *just not like them.* *She* thinks. If they don't like her for that reason, well, then, fine. But she doesn't want to be seen to be a "misery chick," because she isn't. If they don't like her because she thinks, or because she isn't like them, well, then fine. Again, it's not so much that she cares about what other people think, but rather that she wants to be understood, and judged on the facts. If she'd really cared about what everyone else thought about her, she would've tried to leverage her sudden rise in popularity for her own gains.
To a limited extent, I agree. Everybody cares about how they're perceived, to a certain degree. But how others perceive her is not even in the top 5 of the list of things that are important to Daria. And that's a point she's made abundantly clear throughout the series.
In "The Invitation," she helped Brittany because she felt sorry for her-- not because she hoped that she'd get to hang out with her.
In "This Year's Model," she sabotages the Modelling Agents because she thinks that what they're doing is morally wrong, not because it's a ploy for popularity.
In "Too Cute," she actually tells Quinn that she doesn't need plastic surgery because she thinks that Quinn's being manipulated by Dr. Shar, and that it's wrong for anyone to put that kind of pressure on an unsuspecting self-conscious teen. Again, no bid for popularity there. Just a strong moral code.
In "Arts N' Crass," she helped destroy the poster because she felt it violated her ethical duty to be artistically truthful, even though everyone loved the poster.
In "Monster," she decided not to humilate her sister because she felt it was unethical.
Even in "The New Kid," she takes a position that is unpopular, but she stands by it even when the proponent of the position blows her off-- she didn't quit the yearbook because of Ted, she quit it because DeMartino reinstated the pages. Again, ethics, not popularity.
Finally, in "TOATB," she went back to see that woman even after volunteer week was over-- she went back because she knew that that woman needed some companionship, not because she gave a damn what the others thought of her anymore.
I could go on, but you get the drift. <g>
Yes, what others think is sometimes of passing concern to Daria, but in the end, she always makes her decisions and choices based on whether it's true to herself-- and I think it's great that there're characters on TV with such a strong sense of ethics. (Notice I did *not* use the baggage-laden term, "morals.") <g>
Caring about what people think of you and going out of your way to be popular are two *entirely* different things though.
She can say it all she wants, it doesn't make me believe it, however. If how she was perceived wasn't important to Daria then we wouldn't have had "Through a Lens Darkly" at all. That's what the entire episode was about. It doesn't seem like Daria has a real desire to be alienated, however, she's *usually* not willing to compromise her morals (and I will use the term, because it's accurate).
Simply because she doesn't act on her cares about how she's perceived doesn't mean she *doesn't* care about how she's perceived.
Ah, but throughout TOATB she was quite irked that the other senior citizens would rather not have her read to them.
Yep. I'll have to just agree to disagree. It's one thing to care about how one's perceived (and I think it's clear that Daria does), it's another thing to let that override your own sense of "youness" or "Eunice" or whatever ;^)
Often times she makes her decisions and choices towards the end of the half-hour. The proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the rest of the half-hour. I don't disagree with you. However, she does seem to care about how she's perceived I have seen nothing that indicates otherwise.
end, she always makes her decisions and choices based on whether it's true to herself-- and I think it's great that there're characters on TV with such a strong sense of ethics. (Notice I did *not* use the baggage-laden term, "morals.") <g> << Rich
I think Daria has both. She is both a highly ethical and a very moral, indeed good, person, much as she might be uncomfortable with the latter appellation.
Daria's been assuming that her unpopularity is purely a high school phenomenon, that adults will surely appreciate her in her future life. If even the shut-in elderly are annoyed by her negativity, then clearly this is going to be something she is going to have to be dealing with for the rest of her life.
Brittany put her finger right on the problem, then offered to help. The fact that Daria agreed to accept Brittany's help shows that she agreed with her analysis.
TV show! <<
Yes, but it is *perky*. And friendly. Brittany is a hard person to truly dislike. Even Daria doesn't really dislike her (though Jane seems to). Compare this to her opinion of the Fashion Club.
Not to mention more common sense.
Obviously a parody of "Modesty Blaise", btw. Anyone remember those books?
Yeah, maybe. It sounds like the kind of thing which would appeal to her sense of humor, and amuse the heck out of Jane, too.
Aw, now I'm sort of sorry I missed the episode ... I burned out on the series of novels but I love Modesty Blaise. Seeing the character as defined by someone like Daria sounds amusing. I will catch it in the reruns.
Before we get started, +10 points to Tice for making the Subject line a haiku!
(Background music-- "It's All Been Done," Barenaked Ladies)
I liked this episode better the first time I saw it. I believe it was called "Cafe Disaffecto" back then, though.
Not for me... Ms. Li came off as a charicature of herself here. I don't think the cunning Ms. Li of (gasp!) "The Daria Hunter" or "Fair Enough" would go all drippy in public about a note from the superintendent. It'd call -too- much attention to her.
We at least got to see the gossippy side of Quinn. Point being: Quinn's -not- that perky all the time. It's an act. Grating as Brittany might be, it's really her personality, not a front. I think that's the distinction the writer was trying to make.
Did anyone -really- think that the FC would actually donate anything worthwhile to the homeless? It was good for a few grins, but I think the whole subplot was a time-waster. ISTM that they spent more time with the FC than with Daria. Or maybe it just -seemed- longer. Whatever.
Must be. If I didn't know better, I'd think the person who wrote this episode (the same person who brought us See Jane Run, by the way) had only seen Cafe Disaffecto and a copy of the "Daria Database" to get a feel for the characters by. Mrs. Johannsen, Melody Powers, the concept of Forced Volunteerism, all straight out of "CD." Mr. D's instability, Brittany's family, Ms. Li fawning over her superiors: all explored in the "Database."
As I've said, it was like watching "Cafe Disaffecto" all over again, but with the interesting plot device of -removing- Daria from her comic foil, Jane. I've only seen "TOATB" once straight through, but I don't think it's going to age well, as "TALD" did for me. If you're wanting a letter grade for this one, I'll go with a C. VERY close to a C-.
Chris Majors Keeper of The Daria FAQ: http://www.auburn.net/~cwmajors/dariafaq.htm
I liked the episode. Not great, but not horrible either. The greatest part was seeing Daria pull out "Howl" to read, which was funny as hell (although mostly because I'd read it...)
I thought the Ms Li thing was funny, showing how much attention she likes to draw to herself, which is quite common to principals.
And with Brittany... wow, she really is coming out on her own this season as a friend of Daria's, who does her best in her limited way to help Daria, Brittany really likes Daria, maybe senses Daria won't hurt her like others (i.e. Sandi and Quinn) would in a second if it got them somewhere.
Dagny misery chick, cynic, general loony
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"One must have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: you still have chaos in you." Friedrich Nietzsche