Well, I'm not planning to lurk, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am Mindy. Yes, I'm aware there's another Mindy, so I will distinguish myself as Mindy AKA CubikFive. Don't ask about the alias. It's a long story involving a group of psychotic teenagers and a Rubik's Cube.
Just kidding. No, unfortunately, it's just a stupid alias that came off the top of my head.
I first saw Daria in its second season and watched it on-and-off. Now it's for good. I like Daria because I can relate a lot to it and there's a lot of people in my school that remind me of the Fashion Club, especially in my art class. Daria gives me an enjoyable half-hour of relief from my homework and those freakin' idiots at school. Not to mention AOL, which I'm stuck using until I convince my dad that he needs a cable connection.
I'd tell you my favorite episodes and what-not, but isn't that what the Daria Geek Code is for?
BTW, I do NOT know Mork! Mindy AKA CubikFive
Donna: Take my advice. Avoid AOL at all costs. Mindy: And if my father won't change? Donna: Then I'll see you in Hell.
Daria Geek Code v.1.0 A D T0 W- Q+ FN^Fr O++ Oo+Or m c++ MV F: 108,203,308 BB FCD/FCJ/FCT -DT+ q fT^fD
On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:06:05 GMT, [email] (MSB) wrote:
I hope you don't think any other choice would be less "useful." Science isn't the only useful choice that one could choose to specialize in. English majors could go on to earn a higher salary than some science majors, as well as business majors, economics majors, psychology majors, and especially pre-law (or law school) majors.
Of course if you mean job prospects in the current age, I suppose knowledge in matters of science and technology would help a lot in getting a high-paying job. But knowledge of these things do not necessarily mean that you have to actually pursue degrees in those fields. In fact, it might be more favorable for the prospective employer if s/he knows that you have a wide variety of skill and talent.
Besides, you should always pursue something that you honestly *like* and *want* to do, instead of being dictated by the currents of economy. That's not always an option to most people, but it's still an important factor to consider.
I'm majoring in Journalism and minoring (possibly double-majoring) in English Lit because I like writing, and I like literature. I also like being a computer geek, but it's much more of a hobby to me than it is a career choice.
I've been getting some slack lately from a few of my relatives that said I had no future with my chosen career. There are a few times when I believe them, and seriously think about changing my major. But then I know that if I ever do, I'll hate myself for the rest of my life. It's been a constant struggle between doing what I *want* to do, and looking out for my future wellbeing. I suppose it's a balance of both, and just trying the best I can.
That said, I think I've rambled enough for now :)
Cheers, Nicole Lee
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..." -- Isaac Asimov
"No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed." -- Homer Simpson
Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313,401 BB- FCD +DT q fN
I think that's true. Most people change their majors, don't go into what they majored in, or something like that. So it's sure as hell better to study something you like than something you don't like :) Our student teacher in German (who Andy labeled "kleine Frau" - little Frau) studied some sort of surgery she knew she could get out of college and make a ton of money on... but then she decided, y'know, that's really not what I want to do with her life, so she studied German and English and is looking for a teaching job-- at a lot less money.
I'd say, do what you want to do. But that's just me, and my background. None of us have been real accomplishment oriented business people, or obsessed with how much money we can make... as long as we have enough money for our (rather simple) hobbies. Mostly for books for me, my dad, and the Barbers... and if you looked up "laid back" in the dictionary, my uncle Larry would be right there. And, hey, my father got a master's degree in political science to be a magician, but it's something he's into.
Too many people think they HAVE to do this and this and this and this, and it's driving them insane. Get a job you like and a Volkswagen (but not one of the new bugs. they're evil. get a golf or something cheap like that), not a job you hate and a BMW.
Dagny
http://firefly.cc.st
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
Easier said than done for a number of people, though, Nicole.
I don't think it's wrong for someone to study something because it pays well to study it, just so long as they have at least a passing interest in it. I'm certainly not going to rag on my fellow computer science major people because they're studying it, even if it's only to secure a good job right after college ends.
I know for damn well sure that if I were to study something like English, my parents would have a fit. And they'd be the ones in the right for doing that, because...well, English won't get you very many places, to tell you the truth. Not if you're wanting to make it in the world. If your family's already wealthy, then fine, you don't have to worry about that, but if you're not in that position then English is more of a hobby (or a minor) than anything else.
Okay, so that may be my own perspective. I'm not an idealistic hippie type and in fact will always look down on those who are. Last time I was idealistic I was in the fifth grade. I guess this proves that I belong in the '80s, huh?
Suggestion-- read the whole thing before you start flaming. Each part is built upon the previous part.
Diane, I must politely call "Bullshit." on that. If anyone is getting a Bachelor's degree solely for job training, then that person is missing the point of college. (That's what community college and vo-tech is for, anyway.) College is about getting an advanced grounding in a subject, and about rounding out your skills.
With a few exceptions (like medical, legal, and a few other professional/technical programs), most companies prefer to train new employees to do it *their* way. Yes, there are always exceptions, but I'm talking about the rule. In my experiences, most companies *prefer* liberal arts majors, because, frankly, they're more flexible in their thinking, and are more trainable to do a variety of tasks.
"But what about the Internet/Computer revolution?" What about it? While a lot of these companies look great on paper (i.e., have overinflated stock values based on -0- performance), their future is still greatly in doubt. Hell, the whole economic model that Intel is based on is being called into question these days-- just because you can make a 1, 2, or 5 Ghz chip doesn't mean that there's going to be sufficient demand for it. And with MicroSoft's future being decided by lawyers (none of whom have comp sci or engineering backgrounds), even established titans don't have a guaranteed future. I'm not even going to bother with the thousands of dot-com companies that have no sound economic plan behind them. It's waaay to early to tell if any of those models are going to be economically viable over 5 years, let alone 10 or 20. 9 out of 10 businesses fail.
Following a trend because a lot of people have already made money on it isn't what I'd call a great idea. It reminds me of the Klondike gold rushers, many of whom died trying to make it to Dawson, only to find out that after the gold had been discovered, those who were *already there* had already staked out all of the good land. Those early claimholders, *and the businesspeople of Dawson who supplied the Rushers*, were the ones who made the money.
If you're solely looking to make money, then you should either have a psychic abiltity to see what the Next Big Thing is (in 10 years, it won't be the net, I bet-- prolly either nanotech, or a variation on biotech, when the human genome project is finished, IMO.), or you should have a strong business background-- but that does not necessarily mean a B-School training-- as I said, many companies prefer liberal arts majors, simply because they have a broad general knowledge, and they have the flexibility to roll with the punches.
That's if you're only in it for the money.
If you're in it for the love of comp sci, well, then never mind. Follow your bliss. But don't think that just because you have a comp sci degree means that the keys to the kingdom will fall into your hands. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, folks in our generation can expect to have between 4 and 13 different *careers.* Not jobs, *careers.* The nice thing about a liberal arts background is that with it, I can do damn near anything I want to. It's not just about the major, it's about the way of thinking that you learn, and about the broad culural knowledge you get-- cultural knowledge that's vital to get ahead in this world. (Because the world is full of people, and people are who get us jobs. Knowing how to deal with them is vital.)
If you want to make it in the world, you have to have a broad background of skills and knowledge. Pigeonholing yourself is not the way to have the sort of flexibilty you need these days-- at least if you like eating well. And I'm not talking about comp sci specifically, I'm talking about any sort of pigeonholing. It's just not prudent in the long run, IMO. To the naysayers, I offer the example of the CNE.
As for needing a comp sci degree to get into the computer *business*, that's a load that the schools are feeding kids. A lot of my friends are in the biz (and doing quite well, I might add), and not a one of them have a comp sci degree. One has an undergrad degree in econ,and a grad degree in management, one a masters degree in communications, another has a bio degree. They do well because they know how to communicate with people, and because they have learned how businesses function. (Which, frankly, anyone can learn just by working for one, or pursuing a graduate degree in biz-- an undergrad degree in biz is just a waste of money, IMO.)
It's a myth that English or other Liberal Arts majors can't make it in business-- one of the heaviest hitters I knew in business was actually a history major, and of the CEOs I know (and I have known a couple), both were liberal arts majors-- okay, one had an MBA, and the other had a JD, but their undergrad degrees were liberal arts. And both were very vocal about hiring liberal arts majors.
Frankly, I'd rather have a CEO who understood the classics than one who could code in Perl, because he understands people-- and that's what business is about-- people. Not machines. The machines are merely instrumentalities that facilitate profit for the people, who, in the end, are the ones who make the deals.
Businesses are businesses. They all have their own idiosyncracies, and some require a certain degree of background knowledge, but none require a degree's worth.
Studying English Lit. is learning about how to understand the thought processes of others, and about being able to come to that understanding in a rational manner. It's also about understanding the universals of humanity-- we all love good stories, but what makes stories great? And what makes people tick, anyway? There's more to it than the surface. Don't dismiss what you don't understand.
Bullshit again-- sorry, guys, but ain't about the major-- it's what you do with it. Marc Andreesen was a comp sci major, he made a few million. But the VCs behind him made Billions. None of them were comp sci majors-- they were businessmen. And Bill Gates? Never finished his comp sci degree, but let's face it-- he's not a comp sci guy, he's a businessman. And a very cadgey one at that. His products succeeded because of superior business tactics, not because they were superior products.
If you want to make money at the expense of your morals, Jordan (and I doubt that-- you never struck me as the mercenary type)-- it's rather easy. You just have to be willing to sacrifice everything for the goal of making money, that's all. There's no magic to it.
All of this said, I've decided to follow my own bliss, and it has nothing to do with being stuck in a cubicle, doing the bidding of others, or about clawing over the backs of others in order to own a stupid Lexus. It isn't about the money anymore, because money is just another thing that enslaves you. (And, yeah, I grew up in a family of modest means, so I know from where I come.) I've been on both sides of the RR tracks, and I can tell you this-- I'd rather be financially bankrupt and spiritually fulfilled than financially fulfilled and spiritually bankrupt.
We only get ONE go-round in this life, and if you try to live it in order to please others, you will surely regret it. (That comes from personal experience as well.) You must follow your own path--- no one can do it for you, and you cannot follow another's. But the more knowledge you have about the human condition, the better off you are on that path.
I was going to go into even further analysis about a world run by engineers, but the horror of such a society (one without art, music, or literature-- beyond manuals) makes me do a full-body cringe.
Anyway, the short version of the above is, "Don't trash liberal arts degrees, for you know not what you trash."
I'm out. rich.
Quinn: People are so weird!
Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.
paperpusher wrote a message, news:[email], and I stand and applaud it.
Education is not the same thing as training. To study something one has a passion for is life-giving; to study something that brings us neither delight nor interest, for no other reason than that it relates to an industry that's growing this year, may be the waste of an opportunity that might not come again.
Some people have a passion for an area of study related to a growing industry: lucky folk. Everyone else has to make a choice.
Yes, Martin-- and it is truly both an awful and wonderful choice at the same time. Awfully frightening, but wonderfully rewarding spiritually if you choose well.
Oh, and I'm not saying it's easy-- it isn't. In fact, it may take you years to figure it out-- that's okay. Just don't abandon the quest.
rich.
Mr. O'Neill: Let's pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!
Daria: You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?
Okay, I have like zero time here so I'll just say this...I've always been science-and-math-minded. My favorite subjects in school have always been in the science and math fields. I do love computer science and I'm completely obsessed with computers. I'm just saying to not drag some of my other computer science major schoolmates because they're electing to major in this just because of the degree. And...I hate English. I hate it with a passion. I find it highly futile to read a bunch of long-deceased, pretentious, boring "authors" who barely make sense a lot of times (my opinion folks). But I can communicate with others because I know the language and I've observed in the real world how to interact. I could care less about most liberal arts courses and am just taking them to fulfill a requirement (only exception is History, which is structured enough and understandable enough that I like it).
Oh, and did I mention I'm tired and worn down now? I don't feel like arguing today. (maybe a good play flame or two, but not an argument)
Then you're doing the right thing. For those of us whose minds refuse to work in any sort of normal logical way, that would just be devastating :) Well, it's not so much that I'm bad at math and so on, I just don't find it interesting... and I'm one of those odd people who can read James Joyce and find it interesting :)
So, for some people, it's a good thing to study computer science or something like that, but you shouldn't just study it because you think it'll make you money if you don't like it.
It's like our school system since the late 50's/early 60's (after Sputnik, anyway)... that they take anyone with half a brain and try to convince them that they should go into math or science. My God, they're starting advanced math programs in sixth grade. How many advanced programs are there in English or social studies? None until your senior year in high school! And even those suck. AP Government is a joke. AP English is a joke. But if you want advanced math, you're doing well.
Dagny
http://firefly.cc.st
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
That's not true everywhere. My public school in Washington state had an advanced social studies - English program for gifted kids starting in first grade and going through fifth, then another in sixth through eighth. The best teacher I ever had was my 8th grade English/History teacher in that program. In my first (also public) high school you could undertake a rigorous advanced English program by doubling up on English electives all four years and receive college credit for it at the end of it. My second (private Catholic) high school offered Honors English in 11th grade and AP English in 12th, both of which were very challenging classes. (And the AP English teacher even had "The Fountainhead" as part of the core curriculum. ;-) )
Some places do cater to the non-math and science minded. I guess I was lucky, and I definitely know that's not the norm. But if people start demanding it loudly enough, it will happen.
Possibly the reason for this is math curricula are a lot more standardized than English and Government. Formulae are formulae, and while there will be different teaching styles of varying quality, the bare bones information is pretty similar everywhere you go. But if you get an English teacher who picks pointless readings and happen to be in a class with kids who can't discuss the readings intelligently, or if your government teacher focuses on unimportant things.... well, it can throw everything off. Just IMHO.
It's easy to test how good someone is doing in math. It's a lot harder to test their knowledge in English. And our schools like to put the least amount possible into making people learn, so they can concentrate on making sure no students are walking around the school at unapproved times or wearing hats. And winning football games, of course.
Dagny
http://firefly.cc.st
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
Diane-- I wasn't really picking a fight with you (or an argument for that matter <g>), just standing up for what I believe in. I've heard folks trash liberal arts education waaay too much these days, and these are the same folks who don't know who the Vice President is, or can't find Chicago on a map. Don't take it personally, as I know you've got WAY too much to deal with right now. I just needed to vent before one of my bodily humors got out of balance. As long as you do what you do for the love, that's fine by me.
I hope that whatever tests your Dad's undergoing turn out okay. When I was a little kid I had a few seizures, and I know just how frightening they can be. Add the other possibilities, and, well, you just worry about what you need to.
BTW-- OT-- "An Underground Education" has to be one of THE coolest books I've read in a while. It'll surely bust a lot of those bubbles about how great people were in the "good old days..." you know, those days when you could sell your wife in the UK (up until the mid-19th century), and when domestic violence was encouraged by some church authorities-- it wasn't even made illegal in the UK until the late 19th century. Oh, and who can forget those days of extravagance, when people would take TWO baths a year, whether they needed one or not? LOL.
rich.
Helen: Bureaucracy is the price we pay for impartiality.
Exactly. I think most of our computer types are self taught, and you can do that, because all that matters is that you have the necessary skills. Jens, who works on the intranet at BMW, studied German and American Literature, started doing computer stuff in his spare time, and went into that- without a computer science degree.
If what your only goal in life is to make money, that's fairly simple. I, personally, think there are better goals. Maybe even no goals, if you're a laid back sort of person.
hear that Jordan?
Dagny
http://firefly.cc.st
"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot
Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD
Especially since the currents of the economy are unpredictable. The money-making major of today may be saturated with graduates tomorrow; if you give up your dreams to pursue the easy road to wealth, you may find the road blocked and your dreams gone.
You're bright enough that I think you can be a success at anything you love. So's Dagny.
I agree wholeheartedly. When I once told someone (a business major in fact) I wanted to major in either sociology or anthropology, with a possible double major, her response was, "Oh. <long pause.> So, um, you want to teach?" *sigh* NO, I do not want to teach. I've shifted a bit since then, right now I'm a sociology major, probably minoring in anthro or maybe professional writing (my school's name for journalism), or even women's studies (depends on how I like the intro class I'm set for next term). I think what you get out of a degree depends almost as much on the individual classes you take within your major as it does on the major itself! I could take a bunch of sociology "theory" classes and come out with a lot of philosophy but not much real world knowledge.
As for what I actually want to do, that's somewhat up in the air. I'd love to work with nonprofit organizations, especially ones that deal with domestic violence, like a women's shelter. I'm definitely going to do work with parrots and try my hand at breeding them. In my Ideal Life (tm), I'd have a thriving parrot breeding and avian consulting business that would support me, volunteer a few hours a week at a women's shelter or other such place, and do occasional writing for Bird Talk or Bird Breeder or Birds USA magazine.
Y'know, it's interesting how my picture of my future has changed over the last year. A year ago, I had it all figured out. My heart was set on going to Reed College, growing up and becoming a research psychologist or therapist, and getting married to Joel, my Significant Other. Definitely no kids. Now I'm a Portland State University Honors College student, I wouldn't go to Reed if you paid me, Joel and I are no longer together (but still friends), and I'm even allowing the remotest possibility of someday maybe having a few rugrats enter my head. And for career, I want to... well, you read the previous paragraph. :-) The really funny thing is I'm just finishing my freshman year at college (I started a quarter early, so I'm a bit ahead of myself). One wonders what'll happen in the next few years.
Oh yeah, and one more thing. I have absolutely no illusions about the amount of money I'm going to have. I neither need nor want a lot (well, that isn't to say I would mind winning the lottery, but I think you take my meaning). As long as I have enough to feed myself comfortably, purchase a tie-dye or a CD or a few books now and then, and pay the rent/bills, I'm happy.
<snip continued rather good insights>
Now I'm off to study for my French final tomorrow. Au revoir!
To add to the success stories of those with liberal arts majors (or maybe semi-success - depending on how you define success), two friends of mine (who happen to be sisters) have received fairly interesting jobs due to their liberal arts majors.
The older sister has an English major from Oberlin College, and she's currently working in a small town in China as an English teacher. She speaks Mandarin fairly well, so it's a good job for her. According to her, China isn't as backward as people would like to think it is, and it's really quite livable. She's happy teaching the kids, and that's good enough.
The younger sister has just finished her art history major and has already been offered a job as an art museum curator in Italy. She's done a summer internship there before and absolutely loves it there. She's seriously contemplating a move to Europe as a result of this. That's a pretty big step from someone who was in Malaysia just a few years ago wondering what to do with her life.
Needless to say, I'm dead jealous of both of them :) I just hope I can do half as well with my degree and with the rest of my life.
Cheers, Nicole Lee
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny..." -- Isaac Asimov
"No, no, no, Lisa. If adults don't like their jobs, they don't go on strike. They just go in every day and do it really half-assed." -- Homer Simpson
Daria Code: A D T3 Ws Q+ FN^Fr O- OH+Oo+Od m- c+++ MV C5X F:111,213,313,401 BB- FCD +DT q fN
You can't fool us with such a thin disguise. Two people called Mindy? Impossible!
You wear a rubik cube on your head?
It's all rot13 to me to be honest.
Damn, you beat me to it. Anyhow I think we should call you Mork, since we already have a Mindy. I suppose that might be confusing though since Mork was male, but then again you're probably not from outer space either.
Shez wrote: Anyhow I think we should call you Mork, since we already have a Mindy. I suppose that might be confusing though since Mork was male, but then again you're probably not from outer space either.
I wish I was from outer space. Then I could say I'm not a member of the same species as the idiots in my school. =) A Rubik's cube on top of my head? Interesting.
Ciao! Mindy AKA CubikFive
Donna: Take my advice. Avoid AOL at all costs. Mindy: And if my father won't change? Donna: Then I'll see you in Hell.
Daria Geek Code v.1.0 A D T0 W- Q+ FN^Fr O++ Oo+Or m c++ MV F: 108,203,308 BB FCD/FCJ/FCT -DT+ q fT^fD
Oooh! I know! we could do it like in Grade school when you have two kids with the same name...you either a) force both to use the first initial of their last name or b) foce one child into using their nickname/middle name and scarring them for life with an identity crisis. Or not.