fashion club dynamic: a tirade against Sandi bashing (very minor S4, IIFY SPOILERS)

S4, IIFY SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hey, yeah, first post, btw. This is in response to a lot of stuff that's been posted on this newsgroup in the last couple months I've been reading. It started out small but kinds of blew up into an essay, so you probably don't want to read it unless you want a marginally untainted view of the ways things seem to work in Lawndale Fashion Club..

Now, people seem to like Quinn because she's 'nicer' then Sandi, or maybe smarter then Sandi, particularly in light of the events in IIFY; but to be honest, I don't buy it. If by 'nicer' you mean that she actively tries to avoid confrontation (particularly over the FC leadership issue), or by 'smarter', that she has some aptitude at it, then I'm on your level. But in my view, avoiding confrontation doesn't really make someone respectable then deliberately encouraging it; they're just opposites around a more reasonable mean. Look, Sandi has reason to feel threatened; Quinn shows up in Lawndale, Sandy presumably was at the top of the popularity heap before that, and now this girl, who is presumably prettier, definitely more capable on the dating front (which I'm assuming JJ&J are being used to illustrate), has come to town and knocked her of her pedestal... remember who was the 'most popular girl in school' in the 60's story portion of Legends of the Mall? Anyhoo, it's easy for Quinn to be the nice one, because by virtue of her innate attributes, she's now on top. She avoids confrontation because she knows it would most likely break up the only shallow semblance of friendship she has, Sandi seeks it because she feels the need to assert at least a semblance of control, to delude herself into thinking she's really still on top.

Look, remember the dream scene in Of Human Bonding? Sandi felt bad about that, she frowned, that redeems her to me. She doesn't like it any more then Quinn, she's just dealing with a bad situation. Another thing; about intelligence and that PSTAT thing... does it strike anybody as odd that Sandi seems to have an incredible grasp of language? Contrast her use of vocabulary and sentence structure to anyone in the show; she's not an idiot, linguistically, which is usually a good sign for other things. Just don't assume that Quinn is smarter just because she thinks she is (and, well, she's Daria's sister, of course). Still, if the writers make her another dunce and give Quinn at least some above-average mental capacities, that'll have been based on the events of IIFY exclusively, and in the end will simply not cut it.

Now Stacy is also kind of interesting, but I think she's the character that most people have the most distorted view of. She's hyperconformist and totally submissive; superficially, this makes her 'nice', and people place her on Quinn's side. Stacy seems to have a slightly different agenda then the rest of the club... she seems a lot more focused on the internal friendship thing then on external popularity and dating. She's also dumb; at least not competent enough to avoid Sandi's mocking (which is, after all, just almost certainly a dominance display rather then any genuine dislike). But maybe she's not stupid, just naive, exacerbated by her total lack of self confidence.. I think people instinctively reach out to Sandi because she is submissive.. she gives of that air of being hurt and alone, and people want to respond to that, want to help... whereas Sandi, she deals in a different way, she's bitchy and abrasive, so people want bad things to happen to her. As for hers and Quinn's friendship (she was the first one Quinn asked to sleep over in OHB, right?), what can I say? Maybe Quinn likes her for the same reason the watchers seem to; Sandi is effectively unapproachable, and...

then, there's Tiffany, who I don't know what to say about, other then that we've seen no semblance of character from her, I'm guessing the writers kind of dropped the ball, here... All we know is that she seems unquestionably vapid, slow and willing to change sides whenever it suits her. For all I know, she's happy.

In any case, you get a vicious circle going... These people, they're overtly pursuing the goal of popularity, but I'd bet what they really want is friends. They can't have real friends (I'll get to that), so they figure they may as well have popularity... after all, it looks the same, superficially. I'm in highschool right now, I see this kind of thing, that's the way I call it; they want what any sane person would want, they can't get it, they content themselves with largely artificial goals.

But if that's true, why can't they form meaningful friendships? It seems to me that there's no way to given the group dynamic. Sandi can't be friends with Quinn because she needs to assert control, neither can be friends with Stacy because her lack of confidence will always make the friendship one-sided (what was that episode where she dressed up just like Quinn?), and no-one can be friends with Tiffany because they haven't made her a real character. In conclusion, they're screwed unless someone starts getting a grip... and I agree with Quinn seeming to move away from the FC in IIFY... I think all of them need to get some distance to get rid of the tensions that the constant superficiality of the last few years has instilled, but I would sincerely hate it if the writers screwed Sandi out of personal development because Quinn and Stacy are more likeable.

just my considerable more then two bits worth, a. blinn

The trouble is, Sandi has revealed herself to be deliberately nasty on a number of occasions. A (somewhat) minor example was in IIFY - loudly announcing to the 3J's that Quinn was seeing a tutor. Now, of course, that backfired on Sandi, but the intent was nasty.

A more prolonged example would be the episode Daria Dance Party. When O'Neill is looking for a volunteer to head the dance commitee, Sandi remembers her own bad experience doing the same thing in junior high, then gets Quinn to volunteer by promising herself, Sandi and Tiffany as advisors. Then Sandi picks a fight with Quinn over the decor (the Concorde idea was obviously bad, for the reason Quinn stated), then sets up her own rival party.

Shall we mention Sandi's crowing over Quinn's soda-spilling accident in "Groped by an Angel"? Or smirking over Quinn's breaking Brittany's trophy in the same episode?

Nasty, nasty, nasty!

And that's just off the top of my head.

"alias" wrote in message news:N27k6.6595$[email]...

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I want to say right off the bat that you have outlined some very good points. You've also revealed a lot of about what really motivates each FC member in why they are who they are.

However...let's establish this one immutable truth:

Sandi Griffin is THE 'designated bitch' of this series! (when Ms Li, Mrs. Morris or Sandy's mother is not around) The writers have gone out of their way to make sure that she IS the 'one you love to hate'.

So naturally she is bash-bait and will always be. Unless the writers for the show decide to do more with her character.

Now given some of the things you have observed about Sandy's behavior I can say that I have not seen it in that particular light before.

I'll explain my thoughts on these individually.

in

then

reasonable

Quinn is 'nicer' than Sandi Yes, Quinn is nicer than Sandi. Sandi will roll over anyone's feelings or opinions either to assert dominance or as punishment for defying her. Not only roll over them but put it in reverse and run back over them again. Quinn is more of a diplomat. This is why Quinn will always appear 'nicer' than Sandi. because Quinn, believe it or not, appears more tolerant, of others than Sandi.

I could have said that Sandi doesn't suffer fools gladly but look who she hangs out with?

Look, Sandi has reason to feel threatened; Quinn shows up in Lawndale,

now

dating

it

has,

I do agree with the comment that Quinn avoids confrontation with Sandi because she might lose the only 'friends' she has. That's been established in every episode where Sandi either threatens or actually kicks (temporarily) Quinn out of the Fashion Club.

There will come a day when Quinn will have had enough and she will not come back. This will hurt the FC a lot more than it will hurt Quinn.

I know the FC existed before Quinn's arrival but as long as she is there, and the Lawndale 'Cult of Quinn' remains in place, even the FC can be hurt by the 'voluntary' departure of Quinn.

of

Sandi has a dominant personality which she has inherited through her mother. Sandi is not as good at asserting that dominance as Mrs Griffin, and not only because she's young. I suspect she is not as adept. Where Sandi appears clumsy and hateful, her mother is smooth. The few episodes I've seen with her mother are revelatory to say the least. Even the mighty Helen Morgendorffer crumbles whenever Linda Griffin confronts her (See 'Fair Enough' and 'Gifted' to see what I'm talking about.)

then

No comment.

Another thing; about

idiot,

Sandi's grasp and use of language: I had put this down to her being Linda Griffin's daughter. Her mother used to be an anchorwoman (she interviewed First Lady Rosalynn Carter back in the 70's) so that would be something Sandy would pick up naturally.

Just don't

that'll

Sandi's Intelligence: Nobody says that Sandy is dumb, (even though her PSTAT's were lower than Stacy's, and not much higher than Tiffany's! ) however, Sandy has been so used to getting by on being 'clever' she might not know how to do it any other way. She actively discourages, in herself as well as others, any hint of 'brain-geek' behavior (i.e. intelligence).

If she has any facilities in that area they will atrophy.

If they haven't already.

At least Quinn has recognized this and is taking the necessary steps. Sandi will never acknowledge *anyone* knowing more than she does. She can't accept it, even if it ends up hurting her eventually (see IIFY and the whole Tutor-Gate debacle)

In the end Quinn might have above-average mental capacities simply because she will try to achieve this. Sandi will not even put forth the effort.

that

at

dislike).

in

likes

kind

to

kind

to

The FC was created to worship at the feet of the 'flavor of the moment'. In effect the FC is ephemeral, and any relationships created within the FC is ephemeral as well The FC epitomize and uphold the shallow, the superficial, and the vapid.

It's expected. It's programmed. That's the way it is. It will never change.

Sandi can't be friends

with

('Gifted' is the episode where you mentioned Sandy imitating Quinn)

and

I

that

would

In conclusion I think you are expecting more out of the FC (and Sandi) than they can deliver. There will NEVER be a close, meaningful, deep, consistant relationship between these girls.

The FC, by it's very nature will not allow it.

In effect Sandi, Stacy, Tiffany, and Quinn will always act, and be this way as long as they remain within the FC.

They would have to break away and form something else. The FC would have to die...

Not that the world will miss the FC if it happens to disappear one day. (This will never happen; every school has a FC even if it's disguised under another name or the dynamic is instituted in an entirely different type of clique, ie sports, journalism, etc)

You've noticed I haven't said anything about Tiffany or Stacy at this point. As far as I'm concerned they are of no concequence. They are followers and until one grows a spine and the other get's a brain transplant they don't merit the mention.

Firah

I gave a brief answer about this this morning (I had to leave for work so I couldn't expand on it, but I really can't remember Sandi playing a significant part in any episode where she wasn't nasty. At the very least, she's smirking at someone's misfortune (usually Quinn's) or bullying Stacy.

People with much self-respect don't hang out with Sandi, period. This list of people will soon include Quinn, based on IIFY

Is there any real evidence that the popularity of the Fashion Club existed outside their own minds? At least, before Quinn joined?

There's no evidence that any of the true leaders at Lawndale - Mack, Jodie, Kevin, Brittany or the other cheerleaders - pay much if any attention to them. Just some of the dopier football players - dopier than Kevin, apparently.

When have they ever held a party that drew a croud like Brittany's did in both "The Invitation" and "Groped by an Angel"?

Sandi dreamed that Quinn attacked her, and vice versa. Sandi didn't dream that she attacked Quinn, and then regret it. Though that would hardly be redemption.

Yeah, I thought about her mother's former occupation too. Nor do I think Sandi is some sort of moron.

But her language is self-important and pompous, not truly articulate (like a lot of TV newscasters). A classic example was in DDMD where she announced "a round-table discussion of blush strategy and philosophy". That was the only line that made me laugh out loud in that otherwise dead-serious episode (the scenes where Daria and Jane were shopping for hair dye might have been funny if it weren't for the you-can-cut-it-with-a-knife tension carried over from "Fire!"

Yep

Yep Yep

Yep Yep Tep

You get the idea :-)

I don't think there's much more to Tiffany than we've seen, except maybe a severe eating disorder. How can even severe dieting keep her so thin when she apparently has the metabolic rate of a garden slug?

Andreworld said:

SPOILERS for IIFY
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Sandi shows her nastiness to other people as well. Remember her advice to Helen as to how she would handle a relationship she was losing interest in "I'd break up with him -- on his _birthday_."

I never said Sandi was some sort of inhuman monster. She's a nasty bitch, that's a different thing entirely. She's not cosmic evil, she is not utterly conscienceless -- in fact, looking at her horrid family, it's pretty obvious just how and why she got to be the way that she is.

I do think that Sandi might be someday redeemable. Given some good fortune in life (though in ways that she wouldn't currently recognize as "good fortune") and a few right choices, she might develop into a decent person. She isn't _now_, though.

Sandi's not an idiot. Sandi is someone who uses all her intelligence to try to dominate other people, which leaves very little for anything else in her life.

Again, it's her family. Her parents are selfish and self-involved, her two little brothers are horrid nasty brats -- she grew up in an environment where "niceness" was equated with "being a sucker" (remember the flashback in DDP?)

Sandi's also not a child anymore, however, and needs to start taking responsibility for her own personality and its consequences.

I don't think that Stacy's particularly "nice" -- she's quite willing to go along with nastiness if it favors herself (note the scene in "Fire!" where she participates in the egregious insulting of the hotel patrons). I don't think she's particularly "nasty" either -- she's the stereotypical follower. I do think that she means well, though.

Stacy really needs friendship -- which is why Sandi and Tiffany pick on her so. They know that if they treated anyone else this way, that person would _leave_ -- Stacy puts up with it so is fair game by their lights.

Incidentally, one way we know that Quinn is nicer than Sandi is that Quinn doesn't abuse Stacy, even though she could easily get away with it. In fact, Quinn has acted repulsed when Stacy engages in extreme toadying towards her, but friendly when Stacy is friendly in more normal ways.

That's why I think that, if Stacy ever had the courage to be Quinn's friend apart from the rest of the FC, it might be a good thing for Stacy. Quinn doesn't really have any friends, but she at least is groping towards a healthier concept of "friendship" than Sandi has, or than Stacy currently believes in.

There are signs in the 4th season that Quinn likes Stacy more than she likes Sandi or Tiffany. (Well, she doesn't really like Sandi at all, and Tiffany is like a huge mental void, idimly illuminated by flashes of sullenness).

Sandi can't dominate anyone truly intelligent: her techniques are as yet too undeveloped. She's purely a "social bully" -- her putdowns are just the verbal equivalent of what her male counterpart would do with his fists. Quinn, by comparison, is a "social martial artist" ...

Just like Daria. Note that while the Fashion Club sometimes says nasty things about Daria behind her back, none of them (save Quinn) is willing to try it to her face. They seem scared of her, and (if they've overheard some of her sarcasm before), this is with good reason :)

Yep.

Well, yes. Though note, if you really think about it, they're _both_ seriously socially dysfunctional, and due to very poor upbringings.

As Quinn gets older and more secure herself, Stacy arouses her protective instincts.

Tiffany is stupid and more than a bit nasty. One of the ironies of the situation is that Tiffany is also very likely to be socially successful in the sense of marrying someone of higher status -- if she avoids prostitution or something of that sort.

Tiffany is, simply, physically beautiful. And she knows it, and, stupid as she is, knows that it is her primary asset in life. (Hence the constant "Does this make me look fat?")

Bingo.

Sandi was what Quinn thought she needed to be, but wasn't nasty or vapid enough to manage. Sandi is superficial, self obsessed, and an all around horrible person. She's also power obsessed.

Quinn has learned that she doesn't need to be that. She doesn't have to be superficial or outwardly idiotic to be accepted. Quinn always had self esteem issues, probably from being picked on by achieving big sister all her life. Quinn has always felt she wasn't good enough, so has tried to please everyone around her. She's coming to realize that what's important is what she thinks of herself.

Stacey has serious emotional problems. She's needy. She's potentially the one who Quinn can salvage among the fashion club. I could see Stacey as potentially suicidal.

I've noticed she's developed a slur over the seasons. A drug problem, perhaps?

Quinn will be able to form genuine friendships, now that she's more relaxed with who she is. Stacey, well, needs to develop a little self confidence. She seems to worship Quinn (a crush?).

E

that

kind

perhaps?

No, just old-fashioned exaggeration for comic effect. She sounds like she's bored with everything because she's so self-involved.

But, I think y'all are missing the point to dismiss Tiff as "stupid." She's non-verbal and non-intellectual, but that's a very different thing. Her intelligence could be classified as "low, animal cunning," but it's definitely there.

You can see it in her interactions with the rest of the fashion club. It's actually a three- way power struggle between Quinn, Sandy and Tiffany. Tiffany, however, is smart enough to avoid the exposed position of leader ... she's the manipulator. Sandy wants maximum control (it's an ego-boost thing for her), Quinn wants maximum influence (it's a self-actualization thing with her, sadly enough), but Tiffany just wants to make everybody dance, without taking the responsibility of actually being in charge. (Stacy, of course, just wants to be liked, and is willing to give up all power in exchange).

Of the four, which do you think is most likely to end up fantastically rich? Tiffany. Because she's a babe? Yes, but more importantly because she has the instincts (and the ruthlessness) to parlay that into personal advantage.

She may not do too well on the SATs, but she's shown definite signs of having a certain kind of genius.

Can you give any specific scenes in specific episodes where this happens?

It's

Best example I can think of is the way she played Quinn & Sandy off each other in "The Daria Hunter" ... apparently just for the fun of it.

Hmmm. But how is that some sort of power struggle for control of the Fashion Club? Or any indication of even average intelligence?

Actually, all I saw in those scenes was Tiffany sucking up to whomever she was talking at the moment - just being a little more blatant about it than usual.

Mman37x said:

Tiffany's not very bright, but she clearly knows what she wants and how to get it.

Yes, but think about _why_ Tiffany does that.

Not exactly sure what you're driving at. I don't think Tiffany is much into long-term thinking and grandiose plans. She likes pretty clothes and hanging out in a group of similar girls. It keeps her mind (and her life) from being COMPLETELY empty.

"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...

minor

Fashion

There are different kinds of power. Again, Tiffany doesn't want to be the leader ... too ezposed. She wants to passive/aggressively control the direction of the group. In Daria Hunter she successfully turned Sandy and Quinn against each other, prevented either one from increasing their authority, and never got caught doing it.

was

usual.

Watch again. She was pretty clearly deliberately monkey-wrenching the whole Fashion Club pecking order. Tiffany is a force for Chaos. _________________________________

I didn't re-watch the episode, but I searched on "Tiffany" in the episode transcript on Outpost Daria. She badmouthed Sandi to Quinn and Quinn to Sandi. In fact, Mike Quinn mentions this in his review as "bandwagon jumping" which I think is on-the-mark.

What do you think is her aim? "Monkey-wrenching" and "control" are a little vague. Is she trying to push either Sandi or Quinn out of the fashion club? Is she trying to get them to do - what?

Pushing Sandi and Quinn to turn against each other is a little redundant - they do that on their own.

OK, I know it's bad form to follow up one's own post, but you got me curious and I actually watched my tape of "The Daria Hunter"

I don't see how you get that Tiffany turned Quinn and Sandi against each other. About halfway through the episode, Tiffany hasn't spoken except to join the others in an oath that they won't shoot at each other. Then we see Quinn, Stacy and Tiffany in a bunker. Sandi is approaching, but unrecognizable with goggles. Stacy (not Tiffany) cries out that it looks like Quinn's "cousin" (Daria) and Quinn hits Sandi with a paintball.

At this point, I think Sandi and Quinn are guaranteed to be at odds for the rest of the episode without Tiffany's help.

Tiffany then joins Stacy in shouting "way to go, Quinn". But they all still think it's Daria.

Sandi fires back and all three return fire (still thinking it's Daria).

When Sandi pulls off her goggles and the three recognize her, she demands to know why they fired at her against their agreement. Quinn replies didn't recognize Sandi with goggles on. Tiffany definitely is looking for a bandwagon to jump on - her eyes shift between Sandi and Quinn. She decides Quinn is the winner and declares that Sandi's goggles are ugly. She also joins Quinn and Stacy in pointing out that Sandi broke the rules by returning fire after being hit.

The rest of the episode:

Sandi is moaning over how pretty Quinn is, and Tiffany assures Sandi she's "way prettier". Then does the same with Quinn when the situation's reversed, dropping in a comment about how Sandi's always looking for a bathroom.

OK - analysis

I don't see Tiffany doing anything but what Mike Quinn called "bandwagon-jumping" and I called "sucking-up". She never INITIATED anything.

When Quinn splats Sandi, Tiffany decides Quinn's on top and supports her with a few words - basically echoing Quinn. Later she covers her bases with both, assuring each that she's the prettiest - but only in answer to an direct question each time - just echoing. The only things she added were the semi-gratuitous comments about Sandi's goggles being ugly and Sandi looking for a bathroom (both of which were true, anyway).

If Tiffany REALLY wanted to get Quinn and Sandi going, which not tell Sandi that Quinn's prettier and vice versa? Sandi would be mad at Tiffany, but would also probably tend to believe the remark and hate Quinn all the more. And the same with Quinn, vice versa.

But of course, Tiffany would be risking the wrath of both, unnecessarily. And bandwagon-jumper don't do that. (She, of course, risked Sandi's wrath in the shooting scene, but both girls were present and she HAD to pick a bandwagon to jump on).

If the object is to keep either Quinn or Sandi from "increasing her authority", it makes more sense NOT to jump on the bandwagon - rather to support the runner-up and undermine the current leader - tending to keep either from getting too far ahead.

"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...

minor

she

whole

curious

other.

the

with

"cousin"

OK, if I got the wrong ep then my bad.

I distinctly remember an ep where Tiff goes to both Sandy and Quinn in turn, and more or less blatently says you're a better leader, why do you let Sandy/Quinn undermine your authority (not an exact quote, obviously)? I was pretty sure it was The Daria Hunter, but I could be mistaken. Pretty sure it did happen, though.

Umm, maybe I'm thinking about the "way prettier" exchange, but I don't think so.

If that scene happened, it's probably in one of the five episodes I've never seen, because I think it would have stuck in my mind.

But I really didn't mind watching "The Daria Hunter" again. It's a better episode than I'd remembered.

I wonder if alll our musings about the Fashion Club "dynamics" will be rendered obsolete in just over a week by "Fat Like Me". That could turn out to be the quinn (or Quinn)-tessential Fashion Club episode. Unfortunately I'll be on vacation staying with relatives who don't get MTV and won't see it (on tape) until about a week after its first run.

MMan37x said:

She's trying to keep them quarrelling so that both of them court her as an ally against each other.

I'm getting a bit confused here with you answering my replies to Chris. Are you defending Chris's position? I'm not sure who I'm replying to now.

It doesn't sound like you agree with Chris that Tiffany's trying to run the fashion club without actually taking a leadership role? (I THINK that's what he's trying to say. But he also says Tiffany plays off one against the other for the fun of it. Is that the same thing?)

M Man (proudly bashing Sandi since 1999)

MMan said:

No. I think she plays them off against each other because she instinctively understands that if they're fighting each other they won't attack her, in fact will woo her support and hence be nice to her.

Look, she doesn't need to be brilliant to do this. _Chimpanzees_ do this kind of thing, band politics. All she needs is a particularly selfish, manipulative, and amoral sort of attitude -- which she has in spades.

She doesn't want to lead. Leadership carries responsibility. Tiffany wants to be friends with everyone who she realizes can help or support her. Note that she lets Sandi bite Stacy, she doesn't bite Stacy herself.

The problem I have with your formulation is that it assigns a more active role to Tiffany than I see. I think she's a lot more passive - she sucks up and joins bandwagons.

In "The Daria Hunter", Tiffany was not the catalyst for Quinn and Sandi's dispute - it was Quinn paintballing Sandi because she looked like Daria with goggles on (that idea came from Stacy). When it was obvious that it was Sandi who got paintballed, Tiffany waited to see who came out on top - her eyes visibly assessed the two - and she did nothing until she was confident Quinn was on top.

The catalyst for the Quinn-Sandi disputes is USUALLY Sandi's jealousy or meanness (though not in "The Daria Hunter") - Sandi trying to set Quinn up for a fall in "Daria Dance Party", Sandi announcing to the world that "Quinn was stood up" in "Just Add Water", or that "only losers hire tutors" in IIFY. The impetus usually comes from Sandi, not Tiffany.

Another example of Tiffany's passivity, getting back to "The Daria Hunter" Here's a key (for our purposes) bit a dialogue:

Sandi: Quinn's really cute. Tiffany: Yeahhh. Sandi: Cuter than me? Tiffany: Oh, no. You're WAY cuterrr.

If anyone's being manipulative here, it's Sandi, setting a trap to test Tiffany's loyalty (which is really with Quinn at the moment, but Tiffany lies since Quinn isn't within earshot. She'll suck up to both when she can).

This is what the scene would be if Tiffany were the active, manipulating one:

Tiffany: Quinn's really cuuuute. Sandi. Yeah. Cuter than me? Tiffany: Oh, no. You're WAY cuterrr.

Instead of being assured of Tiffany's loyalty, Sandi would now wonder if Tiffany's playing head games with her (almost certainly). But the first example is how it went. And a carbon copy, moments later, with Tiffany and Quinn.

I agree that she's not brilliant. I think Chris thinks she's a lot smarter than you and I do.

(And of course you're WAYY smarterr than Chris :-) :-) :-) :-) )

Usually. And supports my idea that Tiffany's passive.

Um, except than in IIFY, Tiffany does bite Stacy (a few "ewww Stacy" s ). But not REALLY active, because she's basically just copying Sandi.

"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...

minor

the

instinctively

role

and

Passive to the point of being passive/aggressive.

You asked me in another post what Tiff gets out of it ... here's the answer. Like most passive/aggressives she wants power over others for its own sake ... it validates her.

Stacy wants approval, Quinn wants respect, Tiffany wants control without responsibility and Sandy wants control and respect ... obedience.

She USED to, early in the series. Now, she sounds like she's on something, all the time. Plus, she IS weight obsessed, so she could well be pill popping.

Granted, it would be pretty heavy material for the show, but I think this series could handle it.

E

Chris McCubbin said:

Oh yes. She may make a mistake here or there, but I'm sure she'll learn to restrict her romantic involvements to men who can give her pretty things, _and make sure that they pay before they get to play_. And in the end she'll probably find someone _truly_ rich and hold out for marriage, and get her way because she _is_ a babe, and ruthless enough that the issue of genuine romantic attraction won't enter into it.

Sandi's going to be successful too, but in a different way -- she'll be the bitchy career woman (like her mom) who tramples all over everyone else and betrays her colleagues in order to win brownie points with her bosses and win promotions. She may sometimes sleep with higher-ranking men for some career-oriented purpose, but her wealth will be her own, not her husband's. She'll probably _marry_ someone rich and sufficiently weak-willed to dominate.

Stacy is either going to eventually learn to stop letting people abuse her, or she'll commit suicide. For her own sake she really needs to get clear of the FC.

Quinn is actually likely to develop into a decent, likable, and lovable woman, once she sheds her affectations and lets herself relate genuinely to other people. She probably will wind up successful both in her career and as a wife and mother, and without having to be a mega-bitch to do it. She's a smart girl.

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

Looks like the one who will be the least successful is Stacy -- unless she gets the heck out of the FC. I sure hope she gets out of there -- she needs to escape Sandi's abuse! But to get out of there, she'd probably need Quinn to leave the FC.

Belle Book

This is probably what Tiffany's planning, but if it doesn't work out, what then? Giving lap dances at a gentlemen's club owned by Upchuck? Could be. That's also a likely future for Stacy.

Someone suggested Tiffany's apparent mental slowness and slightly slurred speech are the results of drug use, perhaps some kind of diet pill or fat blocker. I think that's likely. I've often wondered, too, if Tiffany's apparent stupidity is an act. Maybe her dad and an older sibling have done some really impressive stuff, and she's afraid she can't compete with them, so she covers for it by acting dumb. The problem with Tiffany is, we really don't know enough about her to draw any firm conclusions. After all, she does so very little on the show. I've seen entire episodes where she doesn't say a complete sentence.

BTW, this is the first time I've seen a thread where Tiffany's character is discussed in any detail.

No argument there. Unethical behavior will hopefully catch up with Sandi at some point. I would like to see Sandi get her comeuppance in the last ep of "Daria" before it goes off the air for good. (Which will happen someday, you know.)

Several self-distructive scenarios are conceivable for Stacy: drug overdose, killed while drunk driving, beaten to death by an abusive husband, it's a grim list.

She probably won't finished college. (No self-confidence.) Going to a party school like the fictitious Pepphill U. would probably just turn her into a drunk. I believe I mentioned giving lap dances as a possible career earlier, but what's she going to do if she lives to be 35? Also, Stacy is an extremely vulnerable person and might conceivable join a cult. All in all, Stacy faces a grim future until she starts picking better friends and gets some serious therapy.

I like to think that Quinn might actually be the one member of fashion club to have a career in fashion, such as being a buyer for department stores.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross said:

Quite possibly. Tiffany strikes me as essentially amoral.

I think complete mental breakdown is a likely future for Stacy.

If so, it's an impressive act. :)

I think that Tiffany is not intellectual, but she knows what she wants and slowly, doggedly, persistently pursues it. What she wants is approval and comfort, and she has chosen her considerable good looks and apparent fragility as the tools to get these things.

I would like to see Sandi go down :)

Yep. Stacy has no respect for herself, and is very likely to do self-destructive things and seek out people who will harm her.

Quite plausibly -- she'd be very good at it.

SMALL SPOILER FOR IIFY
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It's interesting to put together what we know and don't know about Tiffany's home life. In "This Year's Model" Tiffany hired a model to fill in for her mother. Quinn apparently thought it WAS Tiffany's mother - except the obvious racial difference confused her. So, despite the fact that the FC meets at all the girls' homes, Quinn had obviously never met Tiffany's mother. A neglectful mother? A too-busy mother? Did mother hire the model - or Tiffany? If Tiffany, she must have lots of disposible income.

We've also seen a bit of Tiffany's house. It looks more like an interior decorator's model home than a lived-in place. Very delicate decor. We get a good look at Tiffany's bedroom in "Daria!" (during "The Big Wet Rainstorm's Over") - she has a lot of pictures of herself all over the place. And we see some of the rest of the house in IIFY - in the scene where she's getting tutored by David (at least, that was David's intent). Similar decor - delicate, fussy, everything in its place.

Anything about Tiffany's family in "Too Cute"? I've never seen the episode, but I think it's about the Fashion Club, isn't it?

Me too. And I'd like to see Stacy do the honors. Watching Stacy punch out a pillow in "Of Human Bonding" gave me ideas.

And it could really turn Stacy's life around for the better. If you've seen "Back to the Future", it could have the same effect as when George McFly punches out Biff.

MMan said:

Tiffany? If

We know her last name is something German or Jewish (I forget what exactly) and that therefore her looks probably come from her mother, not her father. The logical conclusion is that her mom was a drop-dead gorgeous hot Oriental babe who used her looks and wiles to snare a rich hubby, and Tiffany wants to be just like her mom.

Her _mom_ probably asks "Do I look fat?" all the time. And with good cause -- she knows that her hold over her husband is based primarily on her looks, and fears losing them.

Her last name is Blum-Deckler. Definitely not Asian. She COULD be adopted. I know two local families who adopted Vietnamese war orphans in the 70s and gave them non-Vietnamese names. Though your idea of Asian-on-her-mother's-side-only could be true.

She probably HAS lost her looks, if she's anything like her daughter. The fragile types don't usually stay pretty, unfortunately.

I spent a year in Korea with the military, and let me tell you what I think happened. Tiffany's father came from a wealthy and influential family who got him appointed an officer in the service which he probably couldn't have accomplished on his own merit. While stationed overseas, he fell for one of the many local women who will simply latch on to an American like a pit bull on raw steak, in hopes of a marrage and passage to the States, because this is the only real alternative to life in the local bars or "full-service" barber shops thses women have found themselves indentured to. Tiffany's Mother was a lot luckier than most such women, in that her catch, Lieutenant Blum or Blum-Deckler, was well-off enough that he could bring her home and not only support her, but raise their daughter, too. And in style, too. Most such women often wind up getting dumped once brought Stateside, and many wind up working in massage parlors. You know the kind I'm talking about.

Mrs. Blum-Deckler (the biological mother, not the black fashon model) probably decided the "honey-trap" approach works, based on her experience, and is bringing her daughter up to be somebody's perfect wife. And Tiffany, being brought up in America, is putting her own spin on this whole process. (Only slightly off-topic here: If you haven't read "The Joy Luck Club" by Amy Tan, you've missed out and need to go get it. And as is usually the case, seeing the movie is no comparison to reading the book.)

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

On 04 Mar 2001 07:11:55 GMT, [email] (Pierces888) wrote:

German, not necessarily Jewish, though any German name can be Jewish, not just the typical ones. Also they can be non-Jewish: one of the leading Nazis was called Rosenberg.

In article , [email] (Pierces888) wrote:

bull on

is the

Or what about this: Chinese husband wants his wife to have a son. Gotta have that one child be male, no two ways about it. Wife finds out she's going to have a daughter, but conceals this fact from her husband because she can't bear to have the kid aborted. Near-term, she goes to her doctor's office where the doctor induces labor and she bears the child. She then signs the child away to an orphanage. Hubby's told that his wife miscarried.

The little girl's world is a crowded orphanage where she is malnourished and poorly nurtured. This causes some insidious damage to her brain which would only become apparent when it manifested itself as learning disabilities. However, this orphanage is visited by wealthy, childless couples from the US and Canada looking to adopt babies with no questions asked.

Mr. and Mrs. Blum-Deckler are such a couple, upper Middle Class, lifetime residents of Lawndale, State of US Unknown. They are also wet liberals who like the idea of adopting a Chinese throwaway orphan. They adopt the little girl, name her Tiffany, and bring her back home to America.

Tiffany has learning disabilities and is not well-suited to academics, but she realizes she has two things going for her: beauty and that exotic look that some White guys go apeshit for. She has enough smarts to know that this is her meal ticket, and will probably find some guy with an Asian fixation who's got serious money and tie the knot. Honey-trap indeed. Probably she'll be some old guy's trophy wife.

I think the Chinese girl orphan scenario is the most likely because there are simply so many girls who are thrown away by their families at birth or soon after, because the one-child policy means "boy or else!" particularly in traditional, agrarian China. Of course, selective infanticide is the usual fate of these little girls, but some get lucky and wind up in orphanages. As it is, China will eventually reap the whirlwind with a very serious misbalance between women and men, and all the social problems that causes. Historically China has solved the problem with warfare, using surplus males as cannon fodder. With China a nuclear power, this possibility sends shivers down my spine.

--.\\<-H--

"Michelle Klein-Hass" wrote in message news:[email]...

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Unless they become a very aggressive nation and starting conquering other countries for their women, amongst other things.

Sounds almost medieval doesn't it?

Read a book called 'Arslan' by M. J. Engh and tell me it can't happen.

Yes, it is a VERY scary scenario...

Firah

Michelle Klein-Hass wrote:

If Tiffany has some kind of learning disability, I suspect her biological mother or father passed the tendency to have that disorder to her, then maybe either the birth process in China or conditions at this orphanage would trigger the development of it. I've read quite a bit about learning disabilities, that's how I know.

Yes, the idea of Tiffany being a Chinese girl given up for adoption after being in an orphanage is definitely plausible -- and there's a fanfic on Outpost Daria which postulates that she was adopted. I've read it, that's how I know.

Belle Book

In article , [email] (MMan37x) wrote:

On one of the Daria websites, I forget which one, there's a summation of the cast of the show. Tiffany's last name is given as Blum-Denkler. To me, this indicates she was adopted into a Caucasian (perhaps Jewish) family.

On the subject of Sandi's upcoming attack of bad karma, MMan wrote:

Wouldn't we all?

Steve Cross

Steve Cross wrote:

I would definitely want to see Stacy do the honors, if only because she's overdue in gaining a backbone. LONG overdue.

Belle Book

Almost certainly fundamentalist Christianity. That's the flight path for dried-up, drunken cute girls that don't die.

Al B said:

That would actually be a _good_ outcome for Stacy, y'know.

On 23 Feb 2001 16:00:48 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Except if she ends up in a group that teaches her to try and convert everyone she sees. Though maybe that would take away her shyness...

Kate =^..^=

On 23 Feb 2001 16:00:48 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Is anyone else worried by the direction this is heading?

Which, if you read between the lines in the Griffen family profile in "The Daria Diaries", is exactly what her mother did.

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

At the risk of exposing myself to Daria-esque ridicule for my taste in TV, does anyone here follow the show "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and its spinoff "Angel?" The character of Cordilia Chase, played by Charisma Carpenter, illustrates how a Quinn-like charater can be VERY well and interestingly developed over time. There are probably better examples out there, but this one came quickest to mind at 2 am. My point is, by the time "Daria" has run its course, Quinn may be all the more an excellent character for having all this backstory to have come from.

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

Pierces888 wrote in message news:[email]...

other

wife

does

"Angel?"

You mean for having taste. Anyone who watches MTV has anything negative to say about those shows is probably to brain damaged to concern yourself with.

illustrates how

time.

I think there is a very significant difference: Cordelia started out with at least 1 virtue- honesty. I don't think she was ever on screen lying in the first 3 seasons of Buffy, and honesty leads to honest self evaluation.

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The more I watch, the more I'm convinced that Daria and Quinn are in fact exactly the same.

PJMcGurk said:

I wouldn't say "exactly the same" -- they have some significant differences in goals and means. They are, however, very similar in some crucial respects, particularly their underlying integrity. Which is not totally surprising -- they are, after all, full sisters, raised by the same parents.

SPOILERS FOR S5 - FAT LIKE ME

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More like variations on a theme.

They're both attractive and intelligent, but Daria's kept her attractiveness hidden behind dorky clothes and a nasty manner; Quinn's kept her intelligence hidden behind a mania for the most trivial matters of fashion and popularity.

This is in the process of changing in S5, apparently.

With Stacy's big moment in Fat Like Me, and the fact that this is the last season, does everyone think we're likely to see a whole series of "Moments of Truth" for a lot of characters? Helen deals with her workaholism? Daria changes her style of dress? Jodie tells her father to back off? Upchuck gets a girlfriend? etc.?

M Man

"MMan37x" wrote in message news:[email]...

minor

attractiveness

intelligence

popularity.

of

gets

Perhaps. Or perhaps it'll all happen in the final movie.

Jeg7777 wrote:

Most likely most -- if not all -- of these "moments of truth" will happen in the final movie. Upchuck's going to need to change his manners tremendously if he's going to get a girlfriend, however -- his current approach only gets him nowhere!

Belle Book

That would probably be the best way, rather than a long drawn-out series of "curtain calls".

I figure Upchuck will get a girl when and how he least expects it - maybe when he's too tired or depressed to go into his Hugh Hefner act.

M Man

M Man wrote:

Hopefully, the people in charge of the show will arrange things so that most of the "curtain calls" will happen in the final movie instead of being drawn out.

You forgot maybe having Upchuck finally get fed up with his Hugh Hefner act and try to get a girl in a less sleazy manner -- only to find, to his surprise, that it actually works! I remember one fanfic I read (not a Daria one, one of my other favorite series, "Where on Earth is Carmen Sandiego?") where an undercover agent tried to romance Carmen in his usual manner, which worked well when he tried to get female spies to give up information, but just didn't work with Carmen. He had to change his tactics, adopting a more genuine manner, and Carmen does fall in love with him. However, he also falls in love with Carmen! I don't know how the story ends -- it isn't finished yet. But that's a good way for Upchuck to actually get a girlfriend -- to just give up the Hugh Hefner act in sheer frustration.

Belle Book

In article , MMan37x wrote:

Or his Playboy act actualy works, and he's at a loss as to what to do next :)

As for final "moments of truth", I kind of hope the writers don't have them. After all, in real life the end of highschool is sometimes not that life changing. Any character growth should be done in this final season, with the movie giving hints of where their lives will be going in the future. Leave some questions unanswered!!!!

That could happen - assuming the girl thinks he's just trying to be funny.

M Man