Tom and Jane

Marie Ross said:

Yes. Jane's 18, it's been established (as far back as "Invitation") that she likes guys, and since meeting Daria she's become more socially competent. She's an intelligent and attractive girl, and it would be odd if she never had a boyfriend important enough to be mentioned on the show.

Though of course JA also covered the Daria-Trent relationship.

Daria had her period of pettiness, amplified initially by her fear for her friend, but that wore off. Note how hard it was for Daria to admit that she'd made a mistake, btw :)

After all this introduction and the episode ending with Jane and Tom still together, it would be a major continuity violation for him to disappear without a trace. The sort of things "serious" live-action sitcoms do all the time, but that we haven't seen much of on *Daria*.

Yes. Somebody calm, caring, and wise to deal with her recklessness and insecurity. And somebody who can be counted on not to exploit her need to be needed.

Exactly. And I do think that Daria would be very good for Trent, and Tom for Jane.

Yeah. I think this was part of the reason why Jane encouraged Daria with Trent from the moment she noticed Daria liked him, and I think that her calling Daria "sister" in "Lane Miserables" was partially in reference to this motive. I think that Jane tried something similar with Jesse ("Road Worriers") but it foundered on the rock of Jesse's thickness ("That Was Then, This Is Dumb").

I agree with you that he doesn't have to have major flaws. I think he will have minor ones, and quirks, just like a real person, because the writers are very good at characterization. He seems highly intelligent, and intelligent people are by definition not entirely "normal" ... but of course he doesn't have to be neurotic, and there's every indication that he isn't so far.

Makes sense to me.

world for the two girls.

And new characterization territory.

along

This could lead to some interesting developments, yes ...

thinking

Yes. I've never understood the logic of the premise that if you have a "crush" on somebody therefore "real love" for that person is impossible. In my opinion, there is no hard-and-fast difference between a "crush" and "real love" ... all crushes involve some degree of admiration for perceived real virtues, and all loves involve some degree of self-deception and blindness to faults. And crushes evolve into real love all the time in the real world.

It's true that Daria COULD have had a crush on someone who was a truly bad person, but that wasn't probable, because Daria's a highly perceptive girl. Trent is basically a good man, which is why the crush endured and developed into love ... though that love may be somewhat in abeyance, or at least less intense, now that Daria has noticed his flaws.

One implication of this message being that Trent's lack of overt display did not, in her case, indicate his disinterest. And of course, Trent kissed her at the end of it, to drive the point home.

Yes. I also think that Trent is afraid of hurting Daria.

Indeed. Trent's (previous) apparent lack of skill as a lyricist and musician does not indicate stupidity ... skills take time to develop. And Trent seems to be improving a LOT, based on the "Mr. Normal" song he did this episode.

One way in which Daria could be really good for Trent is that she could inspire him to achieve. And if you're right, she already is.

He's at least tried to be. And I think that Trent and Jane have saved each other from being seriously messed up; Trent has loved and protected Jane, and Jane has been someone who Trent knows he had to be responsible and decent for.

family?

That's a good point. I was thinking about the contrast between Daria and Monique, but it could also be between Daria's family and what Monique represented.

Note that Jane really doesn't like Monique. This could be simple jealousy ("*I* was the most important girl in Trent's life until *she* came along"), but I don't think Jane would be like that, not after three years, unless there was something else reinforcing it. In my opinion, Monique probably hasn't treated Trent very well ... and perhaps hasn't been the nicest sort of person in general.

(Hmm ... Monique would have come into Trent's life when Jane had just turned 15. Jane met Daria when Jane had just turned 17. Those two years probably saw a distancing of a previously closer relationship between Jane and Trent, and they were probably very lonely years for Jane. It's that period in which Jane probably lost her viriginity, probably in a desperate attempt to find someone who needed her. I don't think she's been sexually active during the period she's known Daria, except perhaps with Jesse for a while).

is.

The best way to behave towards a girl like Daria.

parlor.

I like your interpretation better than my original one :)

I hadn't thought so much about Trent's fears ... but you're right. Teenage girls are frequently fickle (though I think it's Daria's dependibility and NON-fickleness which eventually made Trent take her seriously despite the age gap). Trent would also want to make sure that it was more than just a crush on her part.

(as

I think that's being foreshadowed already, in the improvement of Mystik Spiral's music and the "big gig" Trent had to rush off to.

a

Eh ... I don't know if I agree with you. But it would be fun to watch anyway.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 24 Aug 1999 12:06:34 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

<lots of good stuff snipped>

Ya know, maybe it's just me, but I've never been comfortable with the concept that just because Jane is the "wilder" part of the Daria-Jane duo, she must've had *some* sexual experience. I find it highly theoretical and not really based on any hard facts, that Jane would have lost her virginity already. We don't really know if Monique was Trent's first (If she wasn't, then I don't think Jane would need to adapt that much), and we don't know if Jane was seriously affected by it. Even if she was lonely, I don't see why that would cause her to have sex in any way. Jane just doesn't seem to me an irresponsible girl, and she doesn't seem to be careless and reckless with her body or her mind. Before I get hate-mail for criticizing sex, I'm not doing that. I'm just saying I don't think Jane is the sort of person to have sex with any other guy she meets. Which is another reason I believe Jane didn't do the deed with Tom on that first night out. Jane should be clever enough to know to get to know a guy more before they actually have sexual intercourse. I don't believe Jane is the type of girl to voluntarily give in to one-night stands.

<more good stuff snipped>

Let the flaming begin!

Nicole Lee wrote in message news:[email]...

jealousy ("*I*

but I

there was

treated

in

turned

probably saw a

Trent, and they

Jane

someone

period

Well, first of all you should know we don't DO that here in a.t.d--alt.tv.daria is a flame-free zone.

"So it's decided. No matter what happens we won't shoot each other and mess up our outfits."

That said, I think we can agree that sex is dangerous and should be reserved to those who are responsible enough to use it properly. Jane is quite intelligent, that's why Daria has accepted her as a friend, but it's also true that intelligent people sometimes do stupid things. Jane has often indicated that she has a healthy interest in sex (whatever that means). I think it's quite possible she may have done more than just man the fire extinguisher in Tom's Pinto while they drove around.

In article , "R. K. Henry" wrote:

Yeah -- she also held the roof up with one hand :)

Cheryl

Wicka Chick said:

Hmm ... now what was she doing with her other hand?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Nicole Lee, the beautiful and gracious Lady Kender, quoth:

Well, the evidence is mixed, and most of it very nebulous. Pre-Tom, we actually know of only three romantic or sexual things Jane's done:

1) She goes into the laundry room and makes out with "Bobby Big-Head" in "Invitation".

[It's very unlikely that she went all that far with him]

2) She walks off with Jesse and they come back holding hands in "Road Worrier"; later she tries (but fails) to talk with him in "That Was Then, This Was Dumb"; and sometimes Jesse gives her rides to school.

[It's likely they had some sort of romantic relationship, though we don't know how far they went sexually. Jane doesn't see any problem with going after other guys at the same time, which makes me think it didn't last long and wasn't very serious].

• She likes the guy in "See Jane Run". This doesn't get anywhere, though.

Hard to say. Trent would have been around 18-19 when he first got involved with her. One would think he'd had previous girlfriends, though on the other hand the young Trent may have been rather geeky.

I think Jane would have been seriously affected by anyone she disapproved of seriously dating her brother. Remember, for most of her life Trent's been her only real social contact.

Well ... it wouldn't *force* Jane to, but it would constitute a motivation to. It's true that there are girls, even lonely ones, with the moral strength to avoid the easy road to male attention ... and I greatly respect them ... but there are a lot of basically decent girls who give in and get sexually involved with guys who don't really love them, just cause they are lonely and all the guys they know demand that as the price of being with them.

I'd argue she is a bit reckless, but I think she's wise enough NOW to avoid drugs and casual sex. However, I could see her having experimented with both, especially before she met Daria.

I would argue that Daria has been an incredibly good influence on Jane, at a fairly critical time in Jane's life in which she has become a lot more extroverted. Jane learned early in their friendship ("Invitation") that Daria disapproved of sleazy behavior, and Jane doesn't want to disappoint her only good friend.

Not that Jane would have been a slut anyway ... but she might well have been more sexually active without Daria's example.

I agree. Jane's less inhibited than Daria, but she's no tramp.

Yes. I would assume that the first night she met Tom she spent mostly talking to him. That's what people usually do on first meetings anyway.

I agree.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

..

This exemplifies what disturbs me regarding your comments on this subject. The motivation you are ascribing to Jane's hypothetical sexual activity is completely external to her. 1)"she was lonely" 2)"the easy road to male attention" 3)"guys they know demand that as the price". Goodness knows she wouldn't actually WANT some guy to have sex with her -- but we can accept that her lack of moral strength might allow her (a basically decent girl) to put up with it in order to achieve other ends.

With respect, I must suggest that this view is WILDLY out of touch with human experience. Although we may avoid discussing such things outside of "Rikki Lake" and soap operas, there ARE words in our language such as "desire" "passion" and "hornyness"-- I have known many women in their 20's, 30's, and 40's looking back on sexually active experiences at Jane's age (often with rather nostalgic wistfullness) and been told in no uncertain terms, that its not just guys at that age who are ready to gnaw their own feet off if they don't "get some".

I agree that there is no good or clear evidence that Jane is sexually active. But there is CERTAINLY evidence that Jane is sexually INTERESTED. So, noting the values of Jane's upbringing (I cannot imagine sexual activity being condemned in the Lane household) why WOULDN'T Jane be sexually active. Why would Jane (using proper precautions to protect health, one hopes, although testimony of otherwise intelligent, sensible, people seems to bely it) NOT graduate from "making out" into the more naughty bits.

Also, whether or not Jane has lost her virginity would have nothing to do with whether or not she was sexually active-- which is something that somebody as well-educated and motivated as Jane would know in GREAT detail. ..

I agree also, although I would point out that someone with Jane's (or Daria's) background and values would be utterly incensed at the very existence (much less use) of the word "tramp" and its implications of "two kinds of girl, the kind you marry and the kind you screw"-mentality. (which doesn't, of course, mean that they wouldn't use it themselves :-) )

Thomas Fitzgerald Van Horne said:

In general, guys want sex and girls want romance. This isn't coincidental; it's connected to breeding strategies. Males have the option of breeding widely or of focusing on a single mate and their children by that mate; females are just as pregnant regardless of how many men they have sex with (as long as they have at least one). Their equivalent option is whether to pick their mate on the basis of "good looks" (mostly health) or "personality" (value as a long-term ally), and if they choose the latter, whether or not to be unfaithful (and probably breed with) a good-looking lover. (*)

This biological tendency, probably evolved around the same time that human ancestors changed from chimpanzee-style band promiscuity to serial monogamy, has been further reinforced by the requirements of subsistence pastoralism and agriculture. A male who spread his seed widely could hope to have at least some of his offspring survive a famine; a woman who did the same would find to her dismay that no single male cared very much whether she or her offspring of unknown origin survived. (**)

While in the last century or two, with the development of reliable food supplies and vast wealth due to the Industrial Revolution, this situation has begun to change. However, we can't just shuck aside tens of thousands of years of biological and millennia of cultural evolution by declaring sexual "equality". Human sexes should be equal under the law, but they are NOT IDENTICAL psychologically. ("Vive la difference", as the French say ;-)

This is not to say that guys don't value love, or that girls don't desire sex. However, it is more common for men to accept sex without love, and women to accept love without sex, if only one can be had. (***)

As a Daria aside, note that Quinn's "game" involves boys providing her the appearance of "love" (i.e. taking her out on dates, buying her symbolic gifts, etc) without her having to provide even the appearance of "sex" (she doesn't even engage in foreplay with them). This is nasty on Quinn's part, but it is a quintessentially "female" thing to do. Daria's own personality ... self-contained, apparently passionless, but passionate beneath ... is yet another quintessentially "female" type.

And incidentally, I *was* attributing INTERNAL motivations for Jane's hypothetical sexual activity ... I simply doubt that the PRIMARY motivation would be just wanting to have sex. For the very good reason that this usually isn't the PRIMARY motivation for a girl to have sex with a guy whom she is not seriously emotionally attracted to.

Any women want to comment on whether my view or his of male vs. female nature is more accurate?

Well, I look back on almost EVERYTHING in my teenager years with "rather nostalgiac wistfulness". However, that's the nature of nostalgia. I doubt I enjoyed them as much at the time as I do in retrospect. As most of the teenagers I talk with confirm.

Um ... she "likes guys". Of course, so do MOST girls, otherwise the species would not perpetuate itself.

Because Jane's attitudes are at least partially a reaction, and rebellion, against her family's attitudes. Because she isn't the world's most sociable person in general (note that Daria seems to be the first friend she's ever had, and nobody invited her to parties until Daria did). Because her main focus isn't on guys, but on her art (same thing with Trent, btw, if you substitute "girls" for "guys" and "music" for "art").

And, up until she met Tom, because Daria was her primary role model. She may well be having sex with Tom now, but that would be within the context of a serious emotional relationship, rather than a series of one-night stands.

although

Because she doesn't seem to have had any boyfriends until Tom, unless Jesse was her boyfriend, during the period she's known Daria. And if she had boyfriends before, they seem to have been so unimportant to her emotional development (or so negative to it) that she never hangs out with them anymore or even mentions them.

Unless you are talking about the physical hymen itself, it most certainly does have something to do with it. If you haven't had intercourse, you are a "virgin," even though your hymen is broken. And there are plenty of monogamous, highly moral, non-virgins. Though of course the reverse is true ... there are some pretty slutty girls who don't go "all the way".

Um ... Jane's embarked upon extensive academic research regarding sex? When did this happen? FYI, sexually active teens are often remarkably ignorant about the facts regarding sex, beyond the sensations.

I think they would be angered more at the popular attitude which condemns female but not male promiscuity. FYI, I'm not in favor of either.

(*) It's actually been demonstrated that unfaithful women subconsciously time their infidelities to coincide with their most fertile point in their menstrual cycle. This is almost certainly instinctive rather than intentional, and may represent a manifestation of one of the very few genuine human "instincts". (Most human behavior is learned).

(**) With the development of a surplus-based economy, however, a woman could accept goods in trade for sex, thus counting on wealth rather than male loyalty to survive. This is the origin of one of the older human professions.

(***)The significance of the cult of Courtly Love in societal evolution was that it represented a conscious attempt on the part of men to appreciate the female viewpoint, incidentally. One might see the Sexual Revolution of the 1960's as an equivalent attempt on the part of women to appreciate the male viewpoint, which may be why the reaction to it was Radical Feminism).

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Large anthropology section clipped.

Regarding the wonderfully seductive tendency to ascribe biological meaning to social assumptions, I recommend Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man".

Regarding the animal studies that have blown the wonderfully compelling reproductive-economics arguments out of the water I recommend "Bonobo The Forgotten Ape" by Frans De Waal and Frans Lanting -- in summary, there are 3 species of Chimpanzee, one of them, the Bonobo, is the only primate other than humans where the female is sexually approachable during all phases of estrus. This is because Bonobo's, like humans, use sex as a form of social currency unrelated to reproduction (and use it a whole heck of a lot more than humans-- all Bonobo society is based on sexual relationships-- no one can imagine that human society is so structured... unless they watch MTV).

I might also note that humans transmit information through culture learning on unconscious levels that are indistinguishable from "wet wired" instincts.

However, this isn't ALT.SCI.ANTHRO

More common. So if girls desire sex and love cannot be had??? They have neither love nor sex? or do they "make out" with Bobby Bighead?

Your phrasing suggested that Jane's motivations to pursue sex were based solely on the effect the sex would have on other people, not herself.

"Usually". If you note that girls desire sex, and Jane desires sex, why do you need to look for further reasons? Because it USUALLY isn't the primary motivation it therefore isn't???? Because 100 other girls had sex to please another guy, it therefore follows that Jane's motivation will be to please another guy???

Jane's motives are determined by Brittany and the fashon club???

Teenage years and teenage affairs are HELL. My apologies if that "nostalgic wistfullness" comment sounded like I was recommending Jane-age-sex as a yummy delight, my THOUGHT when I wrote that was my amazement that people who would never dream of behaving that way now (or want their children to emulate them) remember such things with such enthusiasm. Sorry, I can see that read otherwise.

..

You're suggesting Jane is rebelling like Saphy in AB FAB????? Are you saying she IS opposed to sexual activity? With what evidence?

So if she desires sex, who will she have it with (Bobby Bighead?)

So if she desires sex, who will she have it with (without a relationship that would interfere with her art)

You've lost me with the Daria role model. If so, why did she let Tom pick her up? Daria certainly wouldn't. If Daria isn't constraining her behavior now, why would she have previously? Daria would condemn sex in the context of her relationship with Tom-- why would Jane consider that better than one-night stands? (in the Daria-role-model context, I mean).

Which doesn't seem to preclude sex (or even one-night stands). ..

I'm sure Brittany is remarkably ignorant on the subject and I'm sure Jane has been to the Lawndale "Borders" where over 1000 titles are convieniently grouped to provide anyone curious (who is capable of reading and doesn't have to worry about parental condemnation) enough information to learn anything they want about sex. Can you concieve that Jane and Daria haven't read "Our Bodies, Ourselves" (even if they'd make fun of it). Heck, Helen BOUGHT it for Daria (you know she did-- Right On! sister-- [Daria, cringing more than usual]).

You certainly have every right to hold any attitude towards any behavior that you wish, but I don't see how your opinion affects Jane. If Jane does not hold the same attitude towards sex as you, if Jane does not react as you conclude girls "usually" react (due to anthropological forces), if Jane-- perfectly in keeping with her "artistic" and "bohemian" sensibilities were to decide that she had the right to explore her sexuality beyond the condemnations of traditional societal values, or something -- for that matter, if she were to become a RIOTGRRRL (and Jane would, at the very least, consider that cool-- whether she would want to do it herself or not) then I'm sure she would have no interest in other's evaluations of her conduct. And it is VERY in keeping with what we know about the character.

For the record here, I don't want to get myself pushed too far in a direction I don't support. My view of the character Jane is NOT that she is promiscuous, indeed, I see the Bobby Bighead incident as exemplifying Jane's attitude towards the opposite sex. Fun, so long as it doesn't interfere with something important. I just don't see Jane drawing a big distinction between what she was doing re:Bobby and Sex. If Jane was fooling around, it was because she felt like it, not for somebody's "acceptance". Now Sex-and-love as in relationship is a whole different kettle-of-fish and the whole Tom thing (ignoring the other story aspects) has obviously changed the whole picture.

First I want to thank Prof. Basssior for his imformative lecture... ;)

<snip>

Times are a-changing, or haven't you heard? The "breeding strategies" you described are no longer really relevant in today's world... at least not in well-developed countries. Now-a-days, a lot of guys are wanting more romance and a lot of women are wanting no-long-term-commitment relationships (according to Cosmo, anyway...).

So you're saying that girls need to put out, or at least let a guy cop a feel, if guys buy them gifts or take them out to dinner? Wow, I didn't realize that they had that right... or that women could be bought so cheaply. Looks like I've certainly been unfair to a lot of guys in my life thus far. To think, I used to get angry at guys who accused me of being a tease.

I don't really agree with either of you. I wasn't quite what you'd call a "normal" teenager but I was lucky enough to have friends from different cliques in school so I do have a fairly average cross-section to work with here. Most women I know who started having sex in their teens regret it now or at least feel it might have been better to wait until they were older and more mature. And I'm not talking about 14 yr olds, I'm referring to 16, 17, & 18 yr olds. The nostalgic memories are usually the more innocent ones, or cutting classes, or partying, or things like that. Even today, peer pressure is the biggest reason teens (and even, to an extent, adult women) have sex, that, and a need to be wanted, to be needed (which, I believe is Jane"s real secret weakness... she just wants to feel needed and wanted).

Of course girls are interested in sex, just as guys are, children are interested in sex, too, even senior citizens are often interested in sex. Sex is what makes the world go around... perpetuates most if not all life on earth. Anyone who says they don't think about sex (whether with the opposite sex, the same sex, elephants, or shoes...) is either lying or seriously repressing, or, maybe dead. How we act upon our thoughts is something else... the moral dilemmas... the eternal struggle. Some of the biggest mistakes in history (as you should know, JB) were made because people insist on lumping behaviors together ; girls are sl**s if they have sex with multiple partners, men are weak if they cry, witches are evil, poor people are stupid, and anyone who isn't a certain religion is damned to hell. Labels divide people and perpetuate inequality of every sort; they are the bane of humankind. Yet they might be neccessary too. Anyway...

I think the relevant point here was that being "sexually active" is not the same thing as intercourse and thus, Jane could be sexually active to some degree and still remain a virgin.

highly moral, non-virgins. Though of course >the reverse is true ... there are some pretty slutty girls who don't go "all >the way".

Are we revisiting the "tease" thing again? Since I know you, JB, and know that you are something of a prude in your attitudes towards women and sex, I will forgo the statement I would otherwise have inserted here.

this happen? FYI, sexually active teens are >often remarkably ignorant about the facts regarding sex, beyond the >sensations.

I disagree. It is becoming more and more difficult for teens to remain ignorant about sex. Not only are they bombarded with it on TV and in movies, but most schools, (at least, public schools) start teaching sex ed. in sixth or seventh grades. Whether teenagers choose to disregard this information is completely up to them. I am sure that both Jane and Daria know everything about sex that they need to and have known it for years now.( Besides, the internet could provide them with any information they could not find otherwise.)

I didn't see either Jane or Daria as particularly strong feminists and since neither girl seems really likely to be prone to that type of behavior, I don't think they would care overly much about the term one way or the other. I don't remember them showing too much interest in this type of thing before... but I could be wrong. As for labels... see my earlier rantings.

Marie

You don't have to suffer to be a poet. Adolescence is enough suffering for anyone." -John Ciardi

"There is only one trait that marks the writer. He is always watching. It's a kind of trick of the mind and he is born with it." -Morley Callaghan

Thomas Fitzgerald Van Horne said:

I've read it. Doesn't change the fact that men and women are different in very similar ways in every human culture ... a fact to me that requires at least a cultural-evolutionary explanation. And while humans are not very sexually dimorphic critters, there are some differences between our sexes.

Some choose the first option, until a better prospect happens along. Others choose the second option, sometimes until a better prospect happens along.

What's very common is for girls to choose the second option and kid themselves that they are on a path likely to lead to love. This is exactly what Jane was protesting ("It could have worked out") when Daria saved her from this situation in "Invitation".

Well, I wouldn't say SOLELY, but I think that her main motive for seeking a boyfriend was to have male AFFECTION and APPROVAL, with sex more of a fringe benefit. That's the way it usually is.

Becaue it usually isn't the primary motivation, we assume that it isn't in Jane's case unless we see evidence to the contrary. That's normal procedure when making educated guesses, which we have to do because we don't know the details of Jane's love life.

It would therefore be strongly suggested, yes ...

No, but Jane, like them, is female. Jane's a non-conformist, but I've never seen any indication that she's a "non-conformist" in the direction of being MORE interested in sex than her age peers. Indeed, all the evidence (from the show) is that her artistic obsession and general peculiar behavior have REDUCED her opportunities for romantic encounters.

Remember, though she's drawn like a young girl, Jane is actually 18 years old. MOST girls her age have already lost their virginity; Jane having done so would not be a bold act of non-conformity, it would be NORMAL.

So much emotion, and so little mutual understanding. Yes, I know ...

Yes ... I had misunderstood you on that. Look, I remember fondly episodes of my childhood and adolescence which at the time probably embarassed or scared the hell out of me. What I remember fondly is the younger, more innocent me, and the rather trivial nature of the threats and opportunities I was overreacting to, compared to me now, who has more experience and responsibility.

Not precisely. Actually, in some ways, DARIA is ... though Saphy's an interesting character, in her own right, and it would be amusing to see a crossover someday, maybe in fanfic?

I never said she's OPPOSED to it ... save in the sense that she, like most girls, probably wants it to be linked to at least affection. I'm saying that she's not the kind of sex-mad, one-night-standing slut that you make her out to be.

Apparently not, since Daria got her away from him :)

She may have had sex with Jesse, as many fans have pointed out. She either had or probably soon will have sex with Tom.

Why do you assume that momentary sexual deprivation is unendurable? While I don't see Jane as planning to be a nun or anything, I think she can survive a few months of not making out without going insane ...

I don't think she's been having much (if any) sex since she met Daria, aside from the possible relationship with Jesse. Again, this isn't as astonishing as you might imagine. While they're in the minority, there is a LARGE minority among middle-class American females who don't lose their virginity (and often, don't date much either) until college.

Taking someone as a "role model" does not mean that you blindly copy everything that they do. It means that you model SOME of your behavior after them, and consider them to be a reference point by which you map your moral universe.

Maybe up until now Jane hadn't met a guy whom she liked as much as she liked Tom on first speaking to him. Note that Daria DID try to warn her against going off with Tom ... Jane just CHOSE not to be "constrained".

Daria's a moral influence on Jane. This doesn't mean that Daria follows Jane around with a rope and ties her up whenever Jane wants to do something that Daria doesn't like. It does mean that Jane would tend to at least consider Daria's likely opinion of stuff she does, whether or not Jane wants to admit that this is what she does.

How do you know that she would? Especially given Daria's current awareness that Tom truly cares for Jane, I don't think she'd "condemn" it. (She might think Jane's reckless, but she already thinks that, and has for a long time).

1) Jane's sane, and probably is aware that having sex with a man who genuinely cares for her is much, much better than having sex with a random stranger who doesn't give a damn for her as a person.

2) Daria's sane, and is ALSO aware of this, so she would be much less inclined to disapprove of her friend having sex with a boyfriend than her friend having sex with some random stranger.

(or

mentions

But there's absolutely no evidence FOR the existence of any of these hypothetical earlier boyfriends, OR for Jane engaging in one-night stands. The only reason I'm even hypothesizing them is because Jane strikes me as having been lonely before she met Daria.

You certainly have every right to hold any attitude towards any behavior that you wish, but I don't see how your opinion affects Jane.

It doesn't. Cause I'm not writing the series :)

On the other hand, the writers do not so far seem to have taken a very positive attitude towards promiscuity. Which makes me think that in this regard they may be thinking more like me than like you.

sensibilities were to

Ooh ... now who's stereotyping? I'm a writer myself, and I know plenty of creative people. Including some writers and artists who make me look like a libertine in my sexual morals. You can't assume that simply because Jane does art that Jane's a loose girl.

conduct.

She cares what Daria thinks of her ... though she's hardly Daria's servile little follower. Both have been show

Why not? Most people, including Daria, certainly would.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

I'm very much in this category, you know. I didn't get a boyfriend until I'd graduated from high school, and even then the guy was a cold and insensitive jerk...but then again he was five years older than I and a foreigner too (from Pakistan...guess that explains a lot) so he did kinda set the trend for any future romantic developments that I would've had and have ended up having with my boyfriend/probable fiance (ten years older, from England, except he's the warmest and kindest).

But you wanna know something? Even though I've spent some intimate time with my boyfriend, I'm still very much a virgin. And he honors and respects my wishes to remain that way until I know for sure we're going to definitely get into a marriage situation (which probably won't happen until he can come to America with a work visa).

And you want to know something? I don't think Jane's gone all the way either. You can be very intimate with someone and still not "go all the way". Sure, she might've had some makeout situations with Jesse and Tom (oh yeah, and Bobby Bighead too), but other than that I don't think she'd actually "do it" unless she knows in her heart it's an intelligent thing to do. Probably she recognized that Jesse wouldn't be good for her and so she decided not to go through with it. However, Tom would be a good candidate for her to "go all the way" with. He seems honorable and intelligent enough so that he won't use her up like someone with less would've.

Somehow I don't see someone like Jane going through with something like having sex unless she was serious about it. And only with someone like Tom can she really be serious.

Diane

Hallucinating Elvis Lady said:

That's quite possible. After all, the closest thing she's had to a serious boyfriend whom we know of, before Tom, was Jesse. Whom she FAILED to connect more deeply with in "That Was Then ..."

I could see Jane, especially in the period when Trent was first involved with Monique and Jane hadn't met Daria, making mistakes, though. She would have been 15-16, and that can be a very lonely time to be an artistic misfit. And she could have gotten (temporary) male "approval" by "putting out" (even partially).

However, if this happened it would have been more of a pathetic attempt to reach out for friendship (and getting taken advantage of in the process) then the bold statement of open sexuality Van Horne treats it as. And from my knowledge of teenage misfit geniuses (and I've known quite a few in my life, in addition to having BEEN one), my scenario is more likely than Van Horne's.

Which, incidentally, would be one reason Jane wouldn't talk about it. It would be a painful and embarassing memory, not something she wanted to boast about. She might tell Daria, but it would be the kind of thing that would be a bit too dark for the comedy, and thus wouldn't get shown.

Indeed.

she

I agree. I can see Jane making mistakes ... she's only human ... but I don't see her as being some sort of emotionless sexual "player". Instead, I think she's a good and caring girl, who wants to be loved.

I think the defining moment was in "That Was Then, This Is Dumb" when she tried to have a conversation with Jesse and realized that he just wasn't capable of it. And that was probably the beginning of the end of their relationship.

seems

less would've.

I agree. It's hard to tell from just one ep, but Tom seems to genuinely like and care for Jane, and I don't think he would want to hurt her. Even if they became lovers and then broke up, I think he would be kind to her and remain her friend.

I certainly don't think she'd be as casual about the whole thing as some other posters have implied.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

You seem to be saying that if Jane doesn't draw the same value differentiations between "making out" and "fooling around" (sexual activity leading to somebody's climax) as you do, then acting on those values would make her a "sex-mad, one-night-standing slut". (Which, presumably is a BAD thing.)

Somewhere you learned these words. "Slut". "Loose". Somewhere you learned these values and incorporated them into your world view. They are terms and values that are rarely endorsed in works of socially rebellious, avant-guarde thinkers, artists, poets. They are rarely espoused by bands like Mystik Spiral or celebrated at Alternapalooza. To use "slut" as a term of denigration is not considered "cool" (although to use it as a complement might be). Jane's parents would not teach Jane that a girl who has sex without love is a slut. Lawndale High's teachers generally _would_ represent and support this world view.

How on Earth would Jane aquire this attitude?

"Perfectly in keeping"-- is in no way contradicted.

Thomas Fitzgerald Van Horne said:

No, I'm saying that if she draws NO distinctions between different levels of sexual activity, she'd be very likely to wind up in this role whether she liked it or not (and a lot of promiscious women are actually frigid). Because sure as shooting, a LOT of guys would take advantage of any reasonably attractive girl that naive, or unfastidious.

Well, yes. Because her partners would regard her more in the nature of a convenience than a real person, who has hopes and needs and dreams ofher own. Being treated as a THING rather than a PERSON is generally bad for one, in many ways, ranging from the emotional to the social. For one thing, her partners would probably NOT consider her to be a "friend".

Along with many other "words", which enable me to "communicate". Isn't "language" wonderful?

Indeed I did. Along with many other useful values and conceptual patterns. And I'm fully aware of the meanings of what I say, too.

Uh-HUH. So what you're saying is that the "socially rebellious" and "avant-garde" (spell it correctly, please) are all rebelling in the same fashion?

"You must all think for yourselves!" "We must all think for ourselves!" (Life of Brian, and many thanks to Dagny for reminding me of that wonderful quote) :)

Hmm ... actually we have no idea what "Mystik Spiral" (as a collective entity) thinks about sex or sexual morality. ("Icebox Woman" is about someone being cold to the singer, but that's been a standard plaint in song since at least Classical Greek times).

We DO know that the "brains" of the group, Trent, is attracted to Daria. Who is about as far from a sexual libertine as one could possibly get. His previous girlfriend, Monique, seemed slightly slutty, but we don't really know her that well, and should be careful about judging on the basis of appearances. (Jane, incidentally, clearly did not like Monique at all).

The festival that the characters ALMOST went to ... and are you saying that Jane derives her serious sexual values from rock concerts?

Yet Jane called Brittany a "bimbo" in the musical episode ...

Why do I feel that while Jane might find it amusing to be jokingly called a "slut", she would NOT find it amusing to be SERIOUSLY tarred with that appellation?

Why do I feel that Trent would be even LESS amused at anyone referring to his sister in that fashion?

slut.

Jane's parents also let Trent live in the yard for three months in a tent without even inquiring as to why he was doing this. If Jane's parents jumped off a cliff, would Jane feel compelled to join them?

view.

Who? Ms. Barch, who would claim that everything is the fault of evil men? Mr. O'Neill, who would claim that everyone's "ok"? Ms. DeFoe, who IS an "avant-garde" type?

She's seen just how well her family's "avant-garde" beliefs serve them, and she may have done some thinking for herself. It's possible, you know.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

thank you for that additional information

thank you for that additional information (sometimes thoughts are expressed by connecting sentences, however if line-by-line commentary is necessary even when it in no way adds to the thought, then I suppose that's what we have to work with)

No, nothing in that sentence said or implied anything remotely like that. why do you ask?

they are rarely espoused by bands like Mystik Spiral

I am citing things that Jane thinks are "cool"-- I am trying to cover what we know of the environment of Jane's values. And demonstrating that there is no known, or easily imagined, source for Jane to aquire those values.

Yes. Bimbo. Yes, calling cheerleaders bimbo is "cool". And this relates to "slut" how?

Yes. Because to use it as a term of denigration is not "cool" (as I just said). "Hate speech" is not well thought of in the "alternative" community.

No, but therefore Jane's parents are excluded as a source from which she could aquire these values. (was this obscure?)

What was Ms. Barch's reference to the woman that her husband left her for?

And concluded that "loose" girls are "sluts" who should be "tarred with that appellation" -- through a process of deductive reasoning?

In article , [email] (Thomas Fitzgerald Van Horne) wrote:

I can't believe I posted a flame.

When you start flaming over "Daria" its time to walk away.

Nice talking to you folks and thanks for the link that let me watch JA.

While your avant garde may not, that doesn't necessarily mean that's what Jane thinks. She enjoys avante garde art such as Jackson Pollock and Tristan Tzara, but I don't think either of them have messages that say "everyone go out and have lots of random sex" as a main theme. Neither does Mystik Spiral. She is not a slave to the views of any art movement or to the views of rock bands like those at Alternapalooza-- she can think for herself, instead of always thinking "Gee, that band at Alternapalooza wouldn't be in favor of having a monogamous relationship, so I guess I shouldn't either."

and we all know what a slave Jane is to fashion

If Jane's parents got around to teaching her anything she'd probably ignore it.

Lawndale High's teachers would support "remember to use a condom" if my high school was any model. That's sort of O'Neill-ish. Of course Barch would just tell her to stay away from all males, which she'd ignore.

by thinking for herself, maybe, something you seem to be ignoring...

Dagny

http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697

"I'm not different for the sake of being different, only for the desperate sake of being myself. I can't join your gang: you'd think I was a phoney and I'd know it." Vivian Stanshall

Marie Ross said:

There'll be a test later, y'know.

I agree that male and female attitudes are merging ... but they are far from having completed the process.

that

Heh ... you know I didn't mean it that way :) What I mean is that Quinn deliberately takes advantage of guys ... she doesn't really LIKE any of her dates as people, she just treats them as opportunities to have other people compliment her and spend money on her. She's doing the equivalent of a guy who sees dating solely as an opportunity to get laid.

least

That was my point ... it's not the trivial, meaningless recreational activity the other guy was implying.

I completely agree with that.

Exactly.

Sure ... I'll agree with that.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Jordan S. Bassior wrote:

Which is why Quinn needs some serious growing up. If she's going to be able to survive out there in the real world, no matter where that real world is, she's going to have to recognize that she could very well get hurt, either physically or psychologically, if she continues with such behaviour. Of course this might not end up happening, but if Quinn has any sort of intellect she'd recognize that she needs to stop taking her chances with things like that...and start recognizing that out there somewhere someone's going to falsely present himself as one of her admirers and then use her up so badly she won't be able to recover. You know, what comes around goes around, that type of thing. (And I think there's a fanfic out there that deals with this type of "what if" situation, I think it's been mentioned here before...I know it was written by Martin J Pollard....)

Diane

On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:57:04 -0500, Hallucinating Elvis Lady wrote:

"Sins of the Past," and yeah, it's most definitely an exploration of the worst-case scenario, based on exactly what you're describing.

Martin
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Diane said:

Exactly. She also needs to develop the moral sense to realize that she is hurting others by her behavior, including some guys who may be rather nice fellows. I think she WILL develop this in time ... in my opinion Quinn is basically not a bad person.

I could easily see it. Scumbags use the claim "she was a tease" as the classic excuse for date-rape, and Quinn, in fact, IS a "tease". (*)

The worst of it is that Quinn totally ignores the CHARACTER of the guys she dates ... all she pays attention to is their popularity and resources. So she'd have little warning of someone being the kind of dirtbag who might try it.

(*) Lest I get flamed for this, let me specify that rape is EVIL regardless of whether or not someone is "teasing", and furthermore that nobody has a right to expect sexual favors of a girl just cause he takes her out and spends money on her. It's "dating", not "prostitution". Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

In article , [email] (MarieRoss) wrote:

I'm responding to two posts here since one didn't show up on my server.

And a woman can have intercourse and still have an intact hymen too. It does not have to break when a woman has sex- and often doesn't, despite current mythology.

Agreed!

     I agree with both of you to some extent.  I still think teens are very
ignorant about sex, but they are constantly bombarded with it in the media at
the same time.  It could be just where I come from, but the teens seem
woefully ignorant about even the simplest things about sex- they believe the
myths about sex and don't seem to know what birth control is (as evidenced by
the scary teen pregnancy rating in my hometown).  But every teen is not like
that.  I knew a lot more about sex when I was a teenager than most teens-
that's why I wasn't HAVING it!  I read parts of Our Bodies, Ourselves
since I was about 8, and I can see intelligent, curious teens such as Daria
and Jane reading it too (or at least watching Loveline ; >).
        Jennifer- a lurker coming out of hiding