Hastily Judging Daria Episodes.

Greetings!

Has anyone noticed that the initial impression of a Daria episode can be somewhat deceiving? It's happened a couple of times in the new season in fact, that I was far from incredibly impressed on the first viewing of an episode, but had an urge to see it again. My criteria of good home cooking is when you went seconds. Likewise, it has seemed to me that a good Daria episode is one that holds appeal on a 3rd or further viewing. I've been using old Daria episode to make myself drowsy at night, and I can never have enough of some episodes, but I only want a few servings of some episodes. (Has anyone else noticed that they like to show "See Jane Run" *alot*? ALOT!) I don't say this by way of criticism, but by way of differing perspective. For instance, as a musician, the Musical Daria really appealed to me (no spoiler info really appears here). The songs kept coming back to mind (as another person on this forum said earlier), and I must have watched that episode, oh...5 times in 2 weeks after it first came out. Jake's voice in particular has a fantastic range. I checked it on my keyboard as an A flat on the top and a D flat on the bottom: 2 octaves and five notes! My effective personal range is about B flat on the top and C on the bottom (about 2 octaves), after 6 years of college-level training. Jake's actor has an incredible voice and it was put to good use. For these and other reasons, it's my favorite episode of the new season. It's not an objective criteria, granted, but the whole experience of re-watching Daria episodes has made me think twice about coming to a hasty decision about the episodes. Maybe that makes me a historian at heart...I don't know.

Any reaction?

Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

In article , father_v wrote:

Padre Paul, meet Padre Martin! Padre Martin, meet Padre Paul!

Wow, not one, but TWO Catholic clerics on this newsgroup! But *what does it mean???*

--.\\<-H--

Michelle Klein-Hass wrote in message ...

Yeah, spooky, isn't it? <g>

Actually we're assuming Rev Paul is Catholic, but here in the UK many Anglican (US English ~= Episcopalian?) clerics style themselves "Father." We should be told! 8-)

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" writes:

As do Orthodox presbyters. And those of the "Old Catholic" (Union of Utrecht) churches.

And as to what it all means, Fr. Martin writes:

<<So I guess that I see reflected in _Daria_ some of the values that I try to live by and promote, and I'm not surprised that another Catholic cleric (if such he really is) would like the show too.>>

Or, for that matter, some of the Catholic laity.

<<I will accept that as a priest I am still trying to live by my ideals, and that those who've abandoned ideals as something you've got to give up if you want to get on in the world would regard me as some sort of fool: little better than a teenager, they might say. So I do feel empathy for Daria, who, it seems to me, is striving to live by her ideals even when that carries a cost.>>

Well said. Again, those of us in the laity who try to live by those same ideals pay the same price. And, as you noted, it's a phenomenon certainly not exclusive to Catholic thought. Just in harmony with it.

That said, I've always had the sneaking suspicion that at least one of the guiding forces behind Daria has at least a little background in Thomistic philosophy. And someone who was involved with Beavis and Butthead had to have attended U.S. Catholic Masses in the late '60s or early '70s. They referred to a Ray Repp song in one of the episodes.

Peace Kevin

KTrick45 wrote in message ...

to

Good point. Actually I'd taken that as read, but it would have been better if I'd made it explicit!

Give five reasons! <g>

to

Never knowingly heard anything by Ray Repp; I don't know whether to feel deprived or thankful. ;:-)

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" writes:

I knew *someone* had to say that. I suppose it needs to be syllogistic as well? Sorry. I fulfilled my quota of scholastic reasoning for this year in the "Daria's 'class' in school" thread. Of course, you didn't see that one because of the spoilers. But believe me, I tried.

Thankful. Very, very thankful. And only a little deprived. Ray was one of the songwriters who worked on the 1966 "Hymnal for Young Christians" published by F.E.L. Publications (it stood for Friends of the English Liturgy, and had to do with the language of the Mass, not about liturgy in England). The hymnal was a runaway success in the late 1960s and early 1970s, or would have been if many churches hadn't just illegally copied the lyrics onto "song sheets." The music was exclusively guitar-based, with the guitar considered as primarily a percussion instrument. In other words, strum up to four chords, and you can play anything.

In the aforementioned B&B episode, they actually sing a little bit of Repp's "Here We Are" which was in Hymnal for Young Christians. I was a little shocked. I go looking for Daria appearances in B&B, and I find flashbacks of bad liturgy from my junior high days.

Peace Kevin

Michelle Klein-Hass <[email] t> of Web Goddess/Animation Nerd/Troublemaker writes:

Daria has the appearance of a typical Catholic schoolgirl. (Although she doesn't smoke, drink and have sex.)

-Shez.

Shez wrote in message ...

Well, I don't agree with the implication about the sexual ethics of Catholics versus other people.

As to the implication that you can spot a Catholic by appearance, well, I'd have to be more nuanced. Of course you can't (at least I can't) describe a the appearance of "typical" Catholic schoolgirl, or Catholic soldier, or Catholic middle manager, or Catholic waitress, or whatever. But I would agree that Daria's unwillingness to be defined by what she looks like fits in more with a Catholic world view than with some others.

In fact, I'd say that many of the values that seem to me to be important to Daria are values that as a Catholic pastor I would seek to promote. Most obviously her integrity, and her willingness to stand against the abuse of authority, and speak out when others might choose to be silent. I remember hearing of a student who had been through our local Catholic school system and who went on to state, not Catholic, college. There he took round a petition protesting against a bill to allow the abortion up to birth of babies who would be born disabled (I'm not opening an abortion debate, the point is it was an ethical issue for him, and he was prepared to court unpopularity in standing up on an issue that would bring him no personal gain). When a lecturer told him that he agreed with the petition, but he wouldn't sign it because to do so would earn him scorn from his colleagues, our student told him, "Sir, you're a moral coward." Pretty good for a teenager, I thought.

So I guess that I see reflected in _Daria_ some of the values that I try to live by and promote, and I'm not surprised that another Catholic cleric (if such he really is) would like the show too.

Note that while I acknowledge my Catholic faith as the source and celebration of my values, many of which I see reflected in Daria, I'm *not* saying that Catholic faith is the only source of valid values, nor that you have to be Catholic to appreciate Daria, nor that the show has an agenda of promoting "Catholic" values, nor that Catholics have a monopoly on integrity and so on.

I will accept that as a priest I am still trying to live by my ideals, and that those who've abandoned ideals as something you've got to give up if you want to get on in the world would regard me as some sort of fool: little better than a teenager, they might say. So I do feel empathy for Daria, who, it seems to me, is striving to live by her ideals even when that carries a cost.

I *was* going to avoid a serious response to Michelle's throwaway remark. <sigh> But Shez has stirred me from my torpor!

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

Ah, so it WASN'T required...whew (breathes a sigh of relief).

I think you can only tell a "typical Catholic schoolgirl" apart only when they're attending a uniformed school and they're still in their uniforms. Apart from that I don't think you can really tell. I can in fact attest to the fact that going back to my 8th grade through sophomore (high school) days (1992 - 1994), I looked very grunge and dressed a lot in denim and all-black.

Besides, ain't the definition of "Catholic" "universal"?

Very good point. Also she seems to have impeccable morals. My high school principal would have been proud to have had a Daria type as a student in our school. (Don't applaud too hard for my old principal, though -- she actually ENCOURAGED jockism *gasp*.)

I remember

Whoo hoo! Good going from the teen!

The whole abortion issue has always been a sticky thing amongst us Catholics, hasn't it? I guess, though, the best thing is to be completely free and open to one's opinions on the subject. So...here goes...I'm personally pro-life but feel that the choice should be open for others to make. So...I have more in common with pro-choicers than pro-lifers. Whew...now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

I thought "Reverend" marked a Protestant minister. And that Catholic priests are "Father" and such. And that only bishops (Catholic) were "Most Reverend". It's been a while since my last religion class....

Oh no, but it certainly is "Catholic" in the sense that it's universal. Just take a look at the number of Americans, Brits, Aussies, etc., who post here, and their ethnic heritages. "Daria" touches all of us equally, so it IS universal, or "catholic".

I completely admire you guys, who've taken a serious vow that will have to last a lifetime. You guys who've made this serious committment are to be commended. And I like it especially when someone comes out of this deep darkness to make and keep these committments. Like...my pastor...he was an alcoholic before entering the priesthood, and now he's not only a compassionate priest but also a hospice worker who is committed to that as well.

No, I really appreciate reading what you've said. It's really cool, by the way, that I'm able to respond to something written by an actual FATHER. A "Daria" fan too. You have got to be one of the coolest clerics ever to walk the face of this Planet Earth.

deena lissa

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

deena lissa wrote in message ...

Good point!

walk

Aww, shut up! <g>

Thanks for your kind remark.

<blushing *and* grinning>

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

Thanks. I should really e-mail one of my old high school religion teachers and thank her for drilling that into our skulls (not literally or else that would've really hurt).

No problem, Fr. Martin! It IS the truth! Besides, I've met so few priests whom seem to be "with it" as far as modern pop culture is concerned. Just you and my pastor, really...my pastor played a Jewel song as part of his sermon one time (one of her REALLY good songs too).

deena lissa

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

I was surprised when I discovered that this is what "catholic" meant, as it had always seemed to me (speaking as an outsider) that the Catholic Church was a closed community, what with having its own schools and centralised authority. In fact I used to think of both Catholic & Anglican churches as being something you had to be born into, and that it was the other ones - Methodists, Baptists, and United Reform, that were the churches for "the rest of us" (as Mac users would say).

-Shez.

In article , deena lissa wrote: [..Catholics & Daria...]

I'm interested in the large preponderance of my fellow Britons in this group; it seems a much higher proportion than in the NGs of other shows. Perhaps we identify strongly with Our Heroine's sardonic outlook, though if Daria is an accurate depiction of U.S. school life, I'd say most British schoolkids have less to annoy them than their U.S. counterparts.

A lot of the stereotypes at Lawndale High don't match anything in the U.K. (the 'Cheerleader' caste, for instance), and the ones that do match (e.g., the 'Jock' type) are a lot more ignorable - or at least they were at my school. OTOH, maybe my school was atypical - 'school spirit' wasn't exactly huge at Brakenhale Comp.

Plus, of course, we (almost) had uniforms, so the Fashion Club would basically be a non-starter.

- Bob Mellish ([email]) The world is my oyster... but I can't seem to get it open.

Bob Mellish wrote:

Heh, right.

At Lawndale, there's none of those puffa jacket-wearing constantly stoned shit-heads that keep gobbing everywhere and all that. That can only be a good thing, LOL.

We have uniforms at my school, but due to what little flexibility there is, there's still a large difference between the fashionable and the unfashionable.

In article , "endless, nameless" wrote:

[... Daria vs. UK schools ...]

Errgh. Puffa jackets were a bit before my time, but now you've mentioned them I remember the type of person you're talking about. You're right, they are/were shitheads. Thinking it over, I think I was wrong before - school in the UK is just as annoying as that depicted in the show, it's just that we have a whole different set of irritating stereotypes.

You know, I remember being fairly happy at school, but I think the only reason I remember it so is because my memory has suppressed lots of the bad stuff. Perhaps *that* is where Daria's universal appeal comes from - everyone goes to school (excepting maybe 'The New Kid':) ), and when you think about it, school really sucks. As Daria said, "Where to begin? There's so much to hate about it."

Bob Mellish said:

And handles herself well there, poking sarcastic fun at a lot of stupid school type things while maintaining her dignity.

SIncerely Yours, Jordan

Bob Mellish wrote:

Everyone wears them here. But not me, I hasten to add. ;)

There's the Drama lot too, the ones who are always in every school production and anything like that, although they are infinitely more tolerable than the puffa jacket wearers, and I am actually friends with several people from that "crowd" or whatever at my school.

In article , deena lissa wrote:

Thought I should just quickly comment on this. In direct address, a priest is called "Father", but in formal writing, the title is "Rev." So for instance, in the inside address of a letter, it would be "Rev. so-and-so", but the opening line would be "Dear Father so-and-so,". You are, of course, right about the Most Rev., but in direct address, a bishop would technically be addressed as "Your Excellency" (although hardly anyone does it anymore. They usually just say "Bishop.") If you dig in your dictionary, you can usually find out obscure and generally worthless pieces of information like this. :-)

I'm glad to hear you've connected well with a priest. Don't forget to pray for him!

I probably shouldn't say anything for fear of inciting a riot, but I want to just *briefly* react to one of your opinions:

The rationale behind Catholic belief on this is the respect that is owed to the new life. It is this idea that the opposition wants to set aside. Catholics are pro-life, not just to take a moral stand, but because the baby is seen as a new human being with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto (to use diploma language :-) ).

The problem with the personally-opposed-but rationale for abortion is inconsistency. If there is new human life, the baby deserves our defense. If the pro-life side is not standing on a plank of defending life, its position is very hollow, indeed.

Please, no offense intended. You show you are an intelligent believer, and so it's hard for us "committed types" to not say a few words.

Hoping not to start World War III, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

In article ,

priest

Wow, thanks for setting me straight about that, Father...er, um, hm. I've got an old dictionary, so it's bound to have a list of addressing nouns like this. I'll look at it when I get home.

Oh, sure, yes! I feel like he's the first priest I've known to show he's human. The rest I've known had previously been mainly concerned with being "above" everyone else.

defense.

But it's so hard not to commisserate with the pro-choicers when one is a feminist who still has her doubts about some of the stances the Church takes. I'm not personally pro-life because the Church teaches it to be the "right" way, but because of personal reasons (which I wish not to go into right now). I in fact am dismayed about the Church's stance on women's issues, and wish they would stop kidding themselves about the supposed "power" of women in the Church. To me nuns are only figureheads, for they will never be able to go to the Vatican and help decide what the Church policy is or anything as powerful as that. It's been striking me odd for years that males can rise to ascendance to positions of high power and authority, while females are only relegated to being at the most school principals.

But I don't expect others to share my philosophy, so please don't feel like I'm attacking you or anyone else here who shares your philosophy. If I knew for sure the Church was for equality of women (not putting us on pedestals, either directly or through a symbol of womanhood, or wanting to "protect" us), I would say, "Hey, I'll defend your pro-life stance! Yeah, sure, you're concerned about what's best for everyone, so why not defend it till the end?" But as I'm convinced the Church won't do such a thing, at least not in the near future, I'm still a little shaky about the explanations given.

deena lissa who really wishes no ill will, I like the rest of what the Church teaches, but this has been an issue with me since the 7th grade at least (1991)

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

father_v wrote in message ...

technically

Not here! <g>

In the UK, and, I think, in some other English-speaking countries too, "Your Excellency" would only be used for the Apostolic (Pro)Nuncio. It would be a bit of a gaffe to address a mere bishop as "Excellency!"

In speaking to a Bishop here, one would properly use "My Lord;" to an archbishop, "Your Grace;" and to a cardinal, "Your Eminence."

Also, we seem to differ in our use of "Most Rev." Here, only a letter to an archbishop would be correctly so addressed: to a mere bishop, "Right Rev." would be correct.

I never knew until now that the US protocol differs so much from the UK. The things ones learns in atd! 8-)

Martin.

Sorry that was a bit flippant, but anyway in my experience catholics usually seem to have dark hair (maybe because they tend to have celtic/Irish ancestry perhaps) which is why I thought Daria looked catholic (along with the pleated skirt - church schools generally seem to have stricter school uniform codes) and the ones I've known had a tendency to hedonism and rebellion at school, probably because their schools had stricter rules. The greater the number of school rules, the bigger the reaction against them. It's like I've noticed that christianity is quite a high profile & popular religion in the US whereas in the UK people tend to be indifferent to it, which I put down to the fact that the teaching of christianity is banned in US schools but compulsory in the UK, which sort of immunises people against it, most of us form religious antibodies from having it stuffed down our throats as kids.

-Shez.

Shez wrote in message ...

<chuckle> Yeah, and I get the impression that what gets taught as Christianity in most schools is often a bastardised, denatured, bland and barely recognisable version. And often taught phenomenologically - this is what these people believe, quaint, isn't it? - by people with no faith themselves. I acknowledge the honourable exceptions!

I've seen a teachers' guide for RE which not only misrepresented Catholic teaching, but presented as Catholic doctrine some views that the Catholic church has identified as heresy! And I dare say there are teachers reproducing in good faith what the teachers' guide tells them.

The sad thing, to me, is that people's religious antibodies (fantastic image, Shez!) are formed in response to something that's nearly Christianity, and so many never get to make any personal choice about the real thing: "Nah, I know about that, we did it at school."

Wouldn't it be strange if schools employed maths teachers who didn't believe maths had anything of value to offer people, or geography teachers who didn't believe geography was any use for anything. But it seems many schools are willing to have religious education taught by people who have a hostile attitude to religious faith. <sigh>

Martin.

Actually I think that type of R.E. is ok, what I object to is schools pushing these things as fact, "There IS a God", "Jesus was/is the Son of God", demanding that you believe it simply on their say-so, and making you bow down and worship this god in assemblies. I guess this happens less than it used to, but it's still the law that UK children must kow-tow to the Christian god in school.

Of course it's also true that people can be put off other subjects at school by teachers who fail to inspire enthusiasm in a subject, and many people leave school hating science or whatever, but the situation with such subjects is somewhat different as they usually deal with tangible things that are amenable to verification, whereas religion is more about metaphysical beliefs.

-Shez.

You obviously haven't been to my school...

All the social studies (history geography etc) teachers tend to think that whatever they're teaching is useless, since they're all hired to coach football or basketball.

Not to mention the fact that most of the English teachers do not care at all about what they teach ,don't think literature is important, which they must have gotten from the administration and/or students who only care about getting high paying jobs in middle management, as doctors, or the like.

Aahm so you HAVE been to Grandville! The subject may have been Steinbeck and not Christ, but the antibodies started working the same way.

Dagny misery chick, cynic, general loony

Visit the Parsley Firefly http://members.aol.com/Eccles9697

"Depicting people as they really are and not how they see themselves made Goya famous. It just gives me something to do during math." Jane Lane

Dagny said:

That sucks. At least when I went to HS I had Social Studies teachers who genuinely loved her subject. This is especially relevant to my life because I went on to get my BA in History, and developed a deep and abiding fascination with the topic that has survived to the present day.

Likewise with English.

I think it's a really sad thing when teachers don't care about what they're teaching. If they don't believe in their subjects, how can they inspire anyone else to believe in them?

It's pretty obvious that your intellectual development has been in *spite* of most of your teachers.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

In article ,

Yeah, it is sad. I mean, I too had history and intro to law teachers who made both fields fun and interesting, which explains why, out of all the non-science, non-technological, and non-mathematical subjects, the only things I really have any interests in are history and law.

And...about the subject of religion as a subject in school. I'd been (don't want to say "forced", but oh well) forced to learn religion from the time I was a kindergardener (5 yrs old) to the time I graduated from high school (18 yrs old). That's a long time to have religious instruction, and halfway through I started to feel that it was redundant. I'd already delved into Scripture, had already learned the history of formation of the Church, and knew all there was to know about the life of Christ. The only time I'd had a break from that was world religions class first semester of my senior year. I thought I knew it all, though, until I went into my theology class second semester of my freshman year in college (I'm attending a Catholic college). That's when I learned that I'd been carrying about a watered-down knowledge of Scripture, Church history, and the life of Christ. I learned all about inconsistencies in various bits of the Bible, as well as some of the atrocities committed in the Church throughout its formation and some interesting things about what I'd thought to be Christ's life. It was quite a shock, as I'd entered the class thinking I'd be bored out of my skull (well, sometimes I was, but that was only because the deacon who taught the class rambled on and on at times).

I don't know, I just thought that was interesting and decided to share....

deena lissa

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

In article , deena lissa wrote:

I too remember my first eye-opening Theology class my freshman year of college, only for me it was St. Thomas Aquinas (as Kevin talked about in an earlier thread). The depth of knowledge of the faith can never be exhausted because the subject (God) is not something that we will ever completely comprehend.

Theology's motto: Faith seeking understanding. Fides quarens intellectum. Moreover, I was educated only on the side in the Catholic Faith as a kid and the books were a REALLY watered down version of the faith: peace, joy, and love 70's style. Bleach!

It wasn't as shocking for me as astoundingly beautiful. Guess I ended up in the right profession. :-)

Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

In article ,

Well, NOW I know that....

Another liberating thing about that class was that, unlike the religion classes I endured all throughout grade school, there was no forcing down of morals and morality. No one preached about what one should believe/not believe/support/not support. And that was genuinely refreshing, because I think that was really the biggest pet peeve of them all that I had about religion class.

Oh, I remember those textbooks! Yeah, we used to get runoffs (copies -- we called them "runoffs") of certain selections from those textbooks in freshman & sophomore high school religion, to accompany the videos that seemed to accompany the books. OH GOD...I remember the videos! Brightly lit, light sepia tones throughout (you know, like the early '70s videos usually have it?), that "light music" in the background, the soothing narrator...OH GOD I remember the videos!

I would hope so...kidding! No, I think it's fabulous you've taken such an interest in it. Like I've said before, I admire you guys. You guys have made a committment I don't think I could make. I applaud you.

deena lissa who still has her uniform tie, except it hangs in her bedroom just to remind her of all those years spent in a uniformed Catholic environment

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote: <snip of the interesting stuff>

Actually, most of my teachers have freely admitted (especially my History teacher) that what they're teaching is either a) boring, b) useless, or c) a repeat of things we already learned in elementary school. Maybe things are different in the UK...?

-Mindy

Mindy wrote:

Your teachers seem to be a little more honest than ours. :) Most of the teachers I've had are bitter from having had to teach the same boring crap for God-knows-how-long, and try to convince us (and thus, themselves) that it's actually a really useful and fascinating subject....also that they *wanted* to become teachers, rather than that they were forced at some point into becoming teachers by the lack of other jobs, which of course is what actually happened for most of them.

On Tue, 30 Mar 99 20:14:54 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from [email] (Mindy), and it said:

Wow! They freely admitted it (to themselves as well as everyone else)? And continued to teach?

What's WRONG with these people?!

In article ,

Pointless Anecdote remembered [1]

Stereotypes are a self-perpetuating phenomenon.

Don't forget Latin ancestry (France, Spain, Italy, etc). The Phillipines too. All dark haired... :)

Is it me or is there a smaller minority of absolute conformists, as well as the more obvious rebels?

[christianity], which I put down to the ... teaching of christianity ... in

Could you also argue that most people also form English-, Maths-, and Science-antibodies? Or any kind of Education-antibodies?

Thought: Why is religion, when taught in school, "stuffed down kid's throats", but English, Maths, etc aren't? I didn't choose to learn English, they made me do it...

A lot of people do. I developed a distaste for literature from having to read some of it in school. I voluntarily saw a Shakespeare play last year and was surprised by how much I liked it. It is much more enjoyable when it's not against your will. Math and science in particular seem to be very allergenic to most people.

The trend these days seems to be towards personalized religion. The other things taught in school tend to considered in more of a one-size-fits-all kind of way. Even then, there is debate over political and social agendas in them, stuff like what writers get read in English, what events are taught in history, and so on. Religion, other than as a historical fact, stirs people up too much. Math is not so exciting, and tends to be the same from one person to the next.

Religion also runs into the problem of deciding what to teach. There are, after all, a number of religions. If teaching religion comes in the form of 'this is the truth, you must believe it' type indoctrination, those who do not follow that religion will probably object. If the religion is simply presented as 'this is what some people believe,' it turns into some kind of anthropology course, and there just isn't much of that in school. Not enough space in the curriculum, or not enough interest, or something.

So, in conclusion, I think religion tends to be regarded as 'stuffed down the throat' if it takes the form of indoctrination because many of the students will disagree with some of it. I do think that a lot of people regard other things as being stuffed down the throat as well. I've heard adults complaining about having to learn algebra, for example, because they never used it after that.

Yes, I think oppression tends to polarise people, some suck up to authority and enjoy the orderliness of the regime, whilst others rebel against it. (Then there are crazy people like Alli who like the orderliness but rebel against it anyway.)

See my other post - it wasn't R.E. I was objecting to but being forced to practise religious worship in school assemblies etc - prayers, listening to sermons, etc. But yes I think people can end up resenting any compulsory subject whose lessons they don't enjoy.

-Shez.

Bear wrote in message ...

throats",

me

You've reminded me of a brilliant satire I once read. It took as its target the facile reasons some people give [1] for not going to church ("I'm a believer, but...").

I wish I could remember it. It included things like:

I don't wash because:
- my parents forced me to wash when I was a child.
- at school they rammed hygiene down our throats.
- washing is for kids.
- I can be clean in my own way, without conforming to traditional
    notions of cleanliness.
- bathrooms are full of hypocrites: I've seen people going in who are just
    as dirty as anyone else.
- I once met a really horrible person who used to wash, and it put me off
    washing for life.

Martin.

[1] What's wrong with saying, "Because I don't choose to?"

Good point, our junior school always made us wash our hands before lunch and so on, I expect most of us disliked it and stopped as soon as the compulsion was removed. In this case of course, too much washing actually prevents the formation of antibodies as you don't eat as much dirt and bacteria and so on.

It's true! It's like when people wash the dishes and then insist on drying them with a tea-towel which is covered with billions of bacteria. People's washing habits are often irrational and ineffectual, and I bet many parents and teachers hypocritically force washing on kids but don't do it themselves.

-Shez.

In article ,

...or, in this country, possibly because of their Latin influences. At my Catholic high school the ethnic makeup was 80% Mexican-American, 15% African-American, and 5% Anglo/others. We did have a very strict dress code even for non-uniform days, as well....

deena lissa

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

You know, this made me think of a discussion that's been going around on another newsgroup I read. The idea is that moralizing is a form of aggressive behavior. Not simply having morals, but attacking others for not sharing them. You know, like if someone told me how he felt about something and I called him a coward. I suppose that it's a pretty minor attack, and perhaps justified, since the lecturer's statement may have been somewhat hostile as well. I do sympathize with the lecturer, though. He was going to catch some flak either way. Scorned if you do, scorned if you don't.

Eric Stevenson said:

Sometimes attacking others on the basis of their morals (or lack thereof) is justified, sometimes not. To my mind the important questions are (1) are they hurting other people, and (2) are they hurting themselves? If (1), then by all means attack away. If only (2), then they probably need help, not abuse. But one should keep in mind that people often (usually) do not respond well to criticism of their morals.

One of the ways in which Daria may well be considered "naive" is that she does not always choose her fights wisely when it comes to moral issues. One of her hidden motivations is probably that she's deeply uncomfortable with (what she perceives as) other people's shallowness and amorality (I don't think her pereceptions here are *always* accurate, btw).

As Daria grows older I do *not* expect her to lose her morals, but I do think she will learn better how to apply them more adroitly so as to live by them without alienating those she has no serious moral problem with.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

Eric Stevenson wrote in message ...

colleagues,

I'm sure that the student involved didn't attack others who didn't share his view. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is a well-established Catholic maxim: he believed (full disclosure: as I do) that the bill in question was an affront to human rights, but I can't see him attacking *people* who supported the bill, only their position. In this case, he was reacting to the lecturer's statement that he *did* share his view, but wouldn't sign the petition because he wouldn't want his teaching colleagues to see his name on it. I don't think the distinction is trivial.

Yes, agreed. If I'm going to be digging out shrapnel, I'd sooner have got it for speaking out for what I think to be right than to have got it for timidity. Others may have different preferences! And, for all we know, it may have been more than scorn: the climate in the college in question may have been such that signing a petition supporting the rights of the unborn may have damaged the lecturer's career.

I don't despise the lecturer: but I do applaud the student.

Martin.

Dear gentle readers,

For those who are interested, I am indeed Catholic ( Great to see ya, Fr. M!), but I noticed that no one seemed to have actually replied to the *substance* of my message, only to the fact that I was a priest. :-) Being a priest is a part of whom I am, so I put that brief "Rev." at the end of the message.

Fr. Martin makes some great points ("Kudos"). Daria is a great character. She frequently talks about having no conscience, but she shows repeatedly that she does. Her comments are witty and interesting. Daria is a great show. It's well written, and although there are some episodes that are not my favorites, I don't *hate* any of them. Very few shows do so well, I think. My original comments just go to say that my perspective on certain episodes has changed after repeated viewing.

See you again soon!

Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

father_v wrote:

Well, I'll comment on the substance of your original post. I agree. Considering what passes for entertainment these days, it's hard to find anything worth watching consistently, let alone worth excitedly waiting for new episodes for. There are a few eps that I've learned to appreciate much more after a few viewings as well-- oddly enough, "Fair Enough" is one of those. (I remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth from some quarters when it was aired. <g>) At first I thought it was kind of all over the place-- the plot didn't feel like a traditional sitcom plot, but then I realized that the plot actually felt more like real life than a sitcom-- things happen frequently IRL with no rhyme or reason, and no Act II climax. I also enjoyed the development of the other characters as well. And, of course, there were some great one-liners in it as well. (Grins as he remebers a few...)

I've enjoyed every Daria ep, even TNK and DTAH-- even DTAH had a few funny moments, and even though it was pretty bad for a "Daria" ep, it was still a heck of a lot better than anything else on at the time. Besides, it answers the question "Will there ever be a Daria (holiday) special?" Answer: Why, we have just such an episode riiiight here... ;-) Oddly enough, though, DTAH did not improve after a few viewings (neither did TOATB), but those are the two exceptions to the rule.

Naturally, YMMV.

rich (who isn't a priest, but whose great uncle was a Monsignor) (and who also happens to be a <gasp!> Protestant.) <g>

Mr. O'Neill: Let's pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!

Daria: You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?

Mr. O'Neill: The coffeehouse!

In article ,

Reminds me of the car I once saw with the bumper sticker: "Catholic School Survivor."

Bob

[email] wrote in message ...

<chuckle> One book that's quite popular here among spouses of Catholics is called "How to Survive Being Married to a Catholic." When people come to make plans for a wedding, if only one partner is Catholic, I recommend this book to the other partner (if they're dependent on benefit I give them a copy). I sometimes get a strange look from the Catholic partner....

Hmm. Perhaps I should feature this book on my Catholic Books pages....

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

I should let my, um, significant other know about this book.... :)

deena lissa yes, I'm absolutely flat-out serious

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

Deena Lissa commented:

In article ,

You're absolutely right.

Maybe...depends on how the cards play out. :) Like I said earlier, you still have plenty of time to save up for a present and plane ticket, destination unknown as of now. (Good lord, did I let a synth pop reference get in that message? *g*)

deena lissa

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

Deena Lissa said:

Again, I wish you the best :)

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

deena lissa wrote:

Yes, you did. "Destination Unknown" by Missing Persons, for those not in the know.

2 minutes in the penalty box for a gratuitous 80s ref. ;-)

rich.

Daria: He said master *painters.*

In article , [email] wrote:

Oh, life's so strange. *g*

(The guitarist in the group, one Warren Cuccurullo, is lead guitarist for Duran Duran now.)

Aw, but what if I'm not a hockey fan...? :)

deena lissa fine, OK, I'd rather have that than a 5-yard penalty....

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

deena lissa wrote in message ...

is

[...]

Okay, I *will* feature it on my Catholic Books pages, then. 8-)

Might get chance to add it today or tommorrow: if not, it may not be 'til a week after Easter (I'll be on retreat from Easter Monday for a few days).

Wow! Wedding bells heard in the distance on atd? Are we all going to start saving for a present? 8-)

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

Perfectly understandable.

LOL...not exactly *yet*.... Still have to graduate college, get an engagement ring, move all my sig. other's stuff, move sig. other, that sort of thing. So you have PLENTY of time....

deena lissa we'll probably ask you for advice on planning the ceremony once everything else is taken care of

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

deena lissa wrote in message ...

No problem. May I presume to offer a comment? Planning the ceremony is trivial. It's planning the marriage that matters. If your parish offers premarital courses, seize the opportunity: if not, search for one. Some unpublished figures I've seen compared couples five years down the line from their wedding day: three times as many couples who'd participated in courses were still together, compared to those who hadn't.

Forgive me if I'm being preachy! 8-)

Martin.

deena lissa wrote in message ...

a

Managed it! It's at http://www.sylvesternet.freeserve.co.uk/catholic-books/current.htm

Martin.

In article ,

Aw, were we supposed to do such things? Darn, I miss out on all the fun.... :o)

deena lissa purely Catholic schooling survivor

"Let's kill the NME! Yes! And the Melody Maker too! Strangle 'em both!" Jane: Dear Daria, Lousy Traitor. Daria: Dear Jane, I know what you are, but what am I?

In article , father_v writes: Spoiler space...

No witty things to say about spoiler pace

Spoiler space some more

OK:

Yeah, I noticed that. In fact, a couple of people posted here that the song in question reminded them of "Paradise by the Dashboard Light". My first impression was of the song Meatloaf sings in Rocky Horror Picture Show. Anyway, I think the reason is the vocal range involved. On my first repeat viewing, I thought that maybe they used Meatloaf to do the singing. It would explain the range. I know I can't project that well through that range. Heck, it was hard enough at 8:00 this morning to handle the major 10th of "All Glory, Laud and Honor" (in B flat). Then again, just making a sound is difficult at that time of the day. Actually, my own range is roughly from F#2 to G4. Above or below, the power falls off very quickly. So, yeah, much credit to whomever does Jake's singing voice.

Peace Kevin

In article ,

Didn't really see the need for it, since we didn't actually disclose episode content. I hope that's not a violation of parole here.

Good to see you remember your octave register designations. I've forgotten them. I take it you consider yourself a baritone. Good to see you on the old classics too. Are you a choir director to be singing "All Glory, Laud and Honor" at 8:00?

Looking at the musical as a whole, it would have been very hard to carry it off without someone of that calibre.

Peace, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

In article , father_v writes:

Baritone or second tenor, as needs require. And I fill in as choir director when needed. Usually, I'm a cantor/psalmist, choir singer, and/or drummer/percussionist/baritone horn/euphonium player. Kind of a liturgical utility fielder. Anyway, the 8:00 thing was as cantor.

Agreed. And, as has been previously mentioned, consider that the speaking and presumably singing voices of Helen, Quinn, and Jane are all done by the same person. That's true talent, too.

Peace Kevin

[email] (KTrick45) wrote:

BTDT... In HS, I always got stuck singing T2... while it was a nice way to improve the upper end of my range, it sure did wear me out. :P

I was a brass utility player m'self in college... Trumpet/Baritone/Euphonium/Valve Trombone (aka Flugabone)/Sousaphone.

(I liked playing Sousaphone best-- my friends could always point me out on the field. <g>)

You betcha.

rich

Jane: All I want is to make beautiful things!

In article , [email] (KTrick45) wrote:

Ultra dittos on that. Especially since Jane (which seems to be the closest to a normal voice for Wendy Hoopes) is a top quality voice also.

Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:30:17 GMT, some letters randomly coalesced from individual pixels, claiming to be from father_v , and it said:

I especially liked her sound in the reprise to "Manly." "Now use your mighty helmet of a head."

Actually, overall, Jane's was probably the most pleasant voice to listen to, along with Helen (surprise?). Believe it or not, I actually liked Brittany's voice in here more low key parts (like the beginning of "Worried"), though during her louder (forte) parts, it was the same annoying squeak.

I've watched this ep a few more times, and, though I was a bit thrown off the first time I watched, I'm finding that, more and more, I like it, quite a bit. I could even go so far as to say I like it best out of the season so far, if Daria Dance Party weren't also a great ep. Comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges, so I like them both about equally.

The Lost Girls, while good by Darian standards, was actually a bit annoying, but only because it featured a _very_ annoying character. Though Daria came through for us in this ep, it was painful to watch. Depth Takes a Holiday was the same way. I don't mind the fantasy base to it, and I actually _liked_ Cupid and the St. Patricks Day Leprichaun, and enjoyed the scenes that involved them, but I couldn't _stand_ Christmas, Haloween, and Guy Fawkes Day (which, from the responses of the Brittish readers, was a lame parody). And it lacked the decidedly Darian quality that makes it possible to forgive The Lost Girls.

Dear gentle readers,

(Replying to my own message is kind of odd, but what the heck!)

I had no idea when I posted this message originally that it would span over 50 messages in the discussion! It's been pretty wild but fun, most of the discussion sparked from three letters and a period (Rev.).

Hope all is well with you wherever you are. Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:33:48 GMT, father_v wrote:

Yeah, that's part of the irresistible charm of alt.tv.daria. IIRC, the "Happy Thanksgiving" thread started a few days before Thanksgiving and went on through Christmas and into the new year. Only 4 or 5 messages in that thread had anything to do with Thanksgiving.

It's good to see that we have another musician around. <plug> Follow the URL at the end of my sig to see one of my most recent Daria-related musical projects </plug> Maybe I could use the next transcript to display Jake's vocal range.