Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-#4-53, "Is It Fall Yet?"

Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-#4-53, "Is It Fall Yet?"

Well, it took me long enough, but I finally found the time to bust this thing out. I�d like to thank everyone for being patient and for being polite when asking when this would be done. As you can see it�s a whole lot longer than any other review, which definitely contributed to its delayed appearance.

Note: While episode #413 (Dye! Dye! My Darling) will be considered the official Season 4 final, for my own numbering purposes Is It Fall Yet? will be part of Season 4 (It aired between the end of Season 4 and the beginning of Season 5).

Spoilers Space for Is It Fall Yet? (If you don�t want to know, then don�t scroll!)

La La La La La This is Mike's post Got to review Or he'll go nuts

Reacting Re-ACT-ing

It's got to be delayed La La La Too soon and it will fade La La La He's standing by his grade La La La He's standing by his grade La La La He's standing by his grade

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La La La La La La La La La La..... (and now the moment some of you have been waiting for)

Mike's Delayed Reaction Review-" Is It Fall Yet?"

MDRR #4-53

The Last Day of School - The last day of school means a lot of things - giving books back, cleaning out desks/lockers, possibly getting report cards, discussing summer plans, watch crazy teachers teetering over the edge, etc. It seemed to mean these things at Lawndale, too. It also meant saying �good bye� to all the friends you�ll be hanging out with all summer. Herein lies the problem for Daria and Jane; they aren�t going to be hanging out all summer because Jane is going to art camp. There was a large amount of tension between the two of them on that last day of school. Jane got very defensive about everything Daria said to her - thinking that it might be about something she didn�t want to talk about, namely, Tom. For instance, I don�t think Jane�s reply to Daria�s, �I think I�m turning into you,� was purely a joke (for the record, she said something like, �you�ve already go so much of mine, why not my identity, too?�). I think Jane getting out of the situation was a blessing. It gave her a chance to not think about it for a while.

Anything You Can Do, I Should Do Better - It�s amazing what a little competitive streak can do for someone. Take Quinn as an example, after taking her PSTATs (not PSATs, probably some copyright thing), and getting a score on the same order as the rest of the Fashion Club (her score was the best, but only marginally so), some internal switch turned on and told her that she could do way better. But, what may or may not have started out as a sort of competition to Quinn, quickly changed into a small re-evaluation of her own values, especially in terms of her relative useful aptitude (meaning anything not Fashion Club related) to her so called �friends.� It turns out that she does care about doing well just for herself, she just has a hard time admitting it to anyone (she does keep displaying her �superior intellect, like when she quickly pointed out that luaus are usually in Hawaii) and this new found desire to perform well in school, leads to the hiring of...

David the Tutor - Quinn�s tutor was a smart guy, sort of arrogant, but good at what he does. And what he does (or did), is get students with less that stellar track records back on the right track. This was exactly what he did with Quinn. She pretty much started out at ground zero, except she did sort of, kind of wanted to do well. Her main problem was focus and priorities - she doesn�t usually focus on the right ones. David basically had to threaten to leave to get her to pay attention and really get her admit that she wanted to learn (unlike the rest of her clique, whom I�ll get to in a minute). Once she started to pay attention, she started to learn, not to mention develop a crush on her pedagogue (look here Maw, I learned me a new word!) because he wanted to help her academically. Then, in sort of a role reversal for her, she tries her darnest to get him to acknowledge her in another way, until he told her that it couldn�t work with the standard �we�re from two different worlds� spiel. If we learned anything at all, it�s that Quinn is becoming less shallow (it would have been nice to see some gradual progression of this during the last season, but I�ll take what I can get) - she put herself in a vulnerable position because of her feelings.

Rent a Brain - Before we leave this mini-theme, I�d like to go over how the rest of the fashion fiends were involved in �tutor-gate.� Naturally, when Sandi learned that Quinn had a tutor, she tried to use it against her rival and embarrass her with it. When the 3 J�s decided that it was cool, and the original plan backfired, she went with the �if you can�t beat �em, join �em� routine by hiring David, too (and, of course, Tiffany and Stacy followed suit). Of course, they all lasted about five seconds each. Sandi got rid of David by being nasty to him, Tiffany, by not listening to a word he said and Stacy, who was the only one that showed ant desire to learn, broke down when she found out that Sandi and Tiffany were dropped (and in the process, reduced my hope that she�ll grow a backbone even further).

Behind the Mask #1 - Daria's plans of loafing away the entire summer were thwarted by Helen volunteering her to work at the "It's OK to Cry" camp. The conversation, which enlightened Daria to this development, contained a significant moment, when Helen told Daria that she wasn't going to let her stay behind her anti-social mask. On the surface, it kind of seems ridiculous for Helen to imply that Daria anti-social persona is not her real self. However, if we probe a little deeper, it does seem to make some sense. Daria isn't really anti-social, she's just really picky about when and with whom she is social. The problem with that is, that at some point you have to deal with social situations that you would rather not. You might as well learn how to handle them when it's not that big a deal. Another comment about Helen's statement, it's possible that Helen was also talking about herself. Perhaps she feels that she's sacrificing some of her identity to her profession, and that she doesn't want Daria to do anything remotely similar.

It Takes Two to Tango - One of the major plot threads of the movie was the supposed �love triangle,� which, in reality, was nothing more than an exploration of Daria and Tom�s new relationship (Jane barely figured in this part of the plot, so I�m going to put her aside for now, besides, I already sort of covered it). Daria never seemed to be as comfortable or excited about the whole attempt at dating as Tom was. Granted, part of that had to do with the fact that they had to explain to just about everyone the saw that Tom wasn�t Jane�s boyfriend anymore, but it does go a bit deeper than that. She was also a little bit bothered by some of the things Tom was or wasn�t saying - like the fact that her didn�t tell his family about her until they met her. That led to him saying that �it�s not like you�re (meaning Daria) Jane,� which set her off. His �upper-crusty-ness� was another thing that made her uncomfortable (the Morgendorffer�s and the Sloan�s - which is Tom�s now revealed last name - aren�t exactly in the same tax bracket). This felt like more of a rationalization on her part, it gave her a reason not to see him. However, it�s not like Daria didn�t ruffle any feathers. She did seem to be picking fights with him. She was being contrary just to cause conflict. There was a blow up, and then they took a �break.�

Camp Boring - Of all the adjectives you could use to describe Mr. O'Neill's camp program, "exciting" isn't one of them. Being couple up inside, doing tedious arts and crafts, while summer is going on outside, isn't what most kids want. Like most of them said, they wanted to go outside run around, and have some fun. Everyone except Mr. O'Neill, even, maybe especially, our favorite stress machine, Mr. DeMartino, realized it. Mr. DeMartino was trying desperately to find his will to teach again - something that seemed to be a long shot. And for a lot of the time, it was not working, until his stress level started to work for him, instead of against him. He made one of the campers cry by yelling at him for painting football players. Of course, this seemed like a bad thing, until the other campers cheered him for it (it seems that camper was a real pain in the ass). Mr. DeMartino's confidence gradually built up and reenergized his love for his craft, culminating in a broken window and freedom for the campers to experience nature. And I just loved his advice to the campers on the last day (and I'm paraphrasing): "If you get mad, go ahead; if someone is annoying you, tell them about it; and take a hike, whenever you feel like it."

Fartsy Artsy - For Jane, going to the summer art camp was a perfect thing to do. It gave her a chance to get away from things that were causing her problems in the first place. This was a way to relax in a secluded area and refocus some of that frustrated energy. The catch was that art camp presented its own delightful problems. First, she was just about ignored by her cabin mates. Then she had to listen to that windbag prattle on about what inspires him. Then there was Allison. Allison �saw� something in Jane. OK, let�s just cut to the chase, Allison was attracted to Jane and saw an easy opportunity to get some nookie that hit a speed bump when Jane hit the brakes. Allison was nothing too special, just an aspiring artist willing to do anything, or anyone, for a shot. But her encounter with Jane started Jane down a short path of doubt. Jane was really clear to Allison that she wasn�t interested, but it ultimately troubled her - she thought that maybe a lot of other people also thought she was gay (Allison did say she never �makes mistakes�). Those doubts we washed away when Jane discovered Allison�s promiscuity (along with that of our aforementioned windbag) and after a little encouragement from a friend.

Save Us from Them! - Kevin and Brittany performed their summer jobs as lifeguards exactly how anyone could have expected - poorly. They pretty much caused a lot more trouble than they solved, by setting a bad example for the kids by horsing around in the pool and by turning mouth-to-mouth resuscitation lesson into a peep show. It�s a wonder that anyone would hire them for such a sensitive job in the first place (apparently, their reputation doesn�t precede them as much as I thought). As we found out after they took over the ice cream truck, they have trouble with making change. On the plus side, while Kevin and Brittany�s role wasn�t entirely a background one, they didn�t seem to dominate the entire plot, like they did in some early season four episodes (A Tree Grows in Lawndale comes to mind).

I Don�t Get It - A clever running gag had to do with Jake�s ability to perceive humor. At first, he couldn�t get the concept at all. He gradually started to get it and, by the end of the movie, was cracking jokes of his own with his, �is it summer already?� quip (which was hilarious, but begs the question �how?� How did he figure this out over one summer, when he�s obviously had trouble with the concept for at least two �Lawndale� years?). This theme worked its way into a couple other scenes, as well. Like the scene at Tom�s parent�s club, when no one laughed at one of Daria�s jokes until Elsie did, and the whole second confrontation between Daria & Tom and Kevin & Brittany at the party.

The Missing Link - I just had to use that title (chuckle). One of Daria's campers, Link, wasn't really ever in a good mood. Who could blame him, it seemed that his life at home with his mother, father, stepfathers, whoever, wasn't exactly a good time. He was also miserable because of the sorry state of Mr. O'Neill's camp. Daria noticed that he seemed to be having trouble and was withdrawing into his own little corner. She tried to reach out to him and be his friend, and it was working for a while. But it was muddled during Daria's "things would be easier if you don't keep it bottled up" speech (believe me, I know) by Mr. O'Neill. But he did seem to get over it, and actually reached out to Daria after camp was over by sending that note (see what happens when you try to help).

I�d Rather Be in School - As for one of Lawndale High�s more �attractive� couple (at least in terms of inability to make me want to vomit), Mack and Jodie, their summer turned quickly into a living hell of sorts, with Mack having to work the ice cream truck to pay back his father and Jodie being caught in �college application padding� mode (and while extracurricular activities help this cause, there is a point where doing so many extra stuff doesn�t really matter much anymore - in other words, give that girl a break). Mack seemed to be really hurting, not only because his job sucked, but also because it kept him from seeing Jodie (along with her over booked schedule). I was glad to see that it all worked out for them at the end (even though there wasn�t much of a story beyond �they haven�t seen each other in a while, now they did and they�re happy�). Also, major continuity plus points to the writers for remembering Mack�s debt (first mentioned in Partner�s Complaint) and Jodie�s summer �fun� (first mentioned in The F Word).

Still Be Freakin� Friends - Once Daria went to visit Jane at the art camp, they made up, but not without some tension. As Trent pointed out to Daria, Jane �knew that no one was trying to hurt her� (he also said �betrayal� a hundred times), and it was only a matter of time before they could stand each other again. But the scene in the bar where Mystik Spiral was playing was a classic. Jane promised not to �find a boyfriend between sets� and both of them tried to blame someone else for everything that happened. They finally realized that fighting about nothing, and arguing just to argue, wasn�t a good idea and that they missed each other. As for the Daria�s encouragement of Jane, Daria told Jane that she likes her because Jane �knows exactly who she is.� Daria dispelled all of what was left of Jane�s sexual identity doubts without even knowing it (now that�s friendship!). Finally, as they said good bye, Jane realized that she was over all the �love triangle� nonsense, and that Daria should give Tom another chance (she is more well adjusted!).

Behind the Mask #2 - Quinn went to Daria for advice on how to handle her little crush on David. Daria helped Quinn by sort of using some of Helen's advice as her own. Daria also complemented Quinn on becoming more normal, that she could look past someone's appearance to what is really important and that she could give that part a chance. Daria even waved Helen off the situation - she did have it under control. Sometimes the best way to learn something is to teach it yourself.

Ironico, Indeed - Sort of ironically, the catalyst of the resolution to Daria�s problem with Tom was Quinn�s mini-crush on her tutor. She went to Daria for advice on how to handle it. Daria turned out describing her relationship with Tom in the process of advising. When Quinn pointed that out and noted how compatible Daria and Tom are, Daria got the message, which eventually led to her �giving him a chance.�

The First Day of School - The first day of school went about the same as any other day, sort of miserably. However, this miserable day had an almost silver lining. Mack and Jodie are back together happily. Quinn is using her brain without being embarrassed by it and, in the process, reaffirmed Mr. DeMartino�s zest for teaching in a scene that was a nice touch (if you don�t remember, Mr. DeMartino asked the same �manifest destiny� question that he asked Daria�s class in Esteemsters, of course Quinn answered it correctly, and very much in her own words). Daria and Jane relinquished what was left of their animosity for each other, while Tom and Daria restarted their try at a relationship. But the running theme is that, after a long and arduous summer full with all kinds of trials and tribulations, things are now on an upswing. It�s not perfect, but definitely rosier (who said this show was pessimistic?).

There�s not much else to add, this was a quality movie that ended a quality season of Daria (not to mention, giving an ending to the �love triangle� mini-arc that left open the possibility for later exploration). I only really had a couple complaints, some of the scenes were kind of unnecessary, and the celebrity guest voices didn�t add a whole lot. Not absolutely perfect, but very very good.

Grade: A-

Daria as a Whole #1, Alter-Ego of the Week - There obviously isn�t one, because there were no alter-egos and I didn�t have a particular favorite among the �outtakes.� They were all good.

Daria as a Whole #2, Hope They Worked Cheap - I hope whomever makes out the checks for the voice actors didn�t spend too much on our celebrity guests. Bif Naked and Dave Grohl�s parts, quite frankly, could have been done by anyone and no one would have cared (it�s not like it attracted their fans to the movie, my brother is a huge Foo Fighters fan, and I couldn�t get him to watch the movie). Hey Glenn, here�s an idea, for the next movie, God willing, give me a call and I�ll do all the new male character voices and I�d probably be so happy to be there, that I probably wouldn�t even ask for any money. However, I think Carson Daly deserves high honors (if only for the longest �cameo� in TV history). He did a wonderful job as Quinn�s tutor. I think he gets a bad rap from some Daria fans. I�m no fan of TRL, but of what I have seen suggests to me that Carson doesn�t always like the gig - he seems to have a definite sarcastic cynical streak.

Daria as a Whole #3, The Dreaded Word Count - Not counting this entry, you�ve read 3045 words of review. Wake up!!!

Copyright � 2000 Mike Quinn [All Rights Reserved]. "Daria" and all related characters are � 1997-2000 MTV Networks, Inc.

Got a question about a review? Drop me an email at: [email]

Missed a review? Check The Delayed Reaction Review Archive http://homestead.deja.com/user.mikequinn/mdrr_archive.html

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Outpost Daria http://www.outpost-daria.com

Mike Quinn said:

(SPOILERS for "Is It Fall Yet?")

You're very right -- it wasn't. Watching that dialogue was actually painful.

He was displaying interest in her intellect, on a serious level, which no one had ever done before. (I really don't count the sucking-up to her in "Quinn the Brain" to count). The sad thing is that he was only doing so because that's what he was hired for. Though there were limits to what he was willing to do for money: note that he dropped Sandy and Tiffany.

This was the first time that Quinn has ever been shown chasing a guy, rather than letting a guy chase her. I'm pretty sure that asking him out was against her "rules" -- she really liked him. This may well be the _first_ time that she's ever really liked a guy.

That was sad to watch. Stacy threw away an opportunity to improve herself, just to conform to the actions of two people who don't even really _like_ her.

Note: it worked, in the end. She made a new friend.

Yep. Incidentally, I expected that to be the end of their relationship: that's what a "break" like that normally means.

Yep. The irony here is that Mr. O'Neill was theoretically trying to help them pay attention to their own feelings, while he was completely ignoring the reality of what those feelings were. His claim to respect them was hollow: he wasn't even really paying attention to them, only to his fantasy of what they were supposed to be.

Damn straight! That speech made me _like_ DiMartino :)

It is quite possible that Allison actually liked Jane too (Jane's very easy to like when she decides to emotionally open to one), but that Allison's ego couldn't deal with the idea of being rejected by her. Nevertheless, Allison behaved very badly: trying to get Jane drunk first was not a nice thing to do, and she should have taken "no" for an answer rather than trying to persuade Jane that she was a lesbian.

Heh-heh-heh -- that's one way to put it :)

Jane was feeling really insecure because Tom had dumped her.

Incidentally, that bothered Jane on two seperate levels: 1) that Allison was willing to use SEX for success in art, and 2) that Allison was willing to use sex for success in ART. Jane's really serious about art, and Allison's prostitution of the whole concept of art was probably at least as upsetting as Allison's prostitution of herself.

Allison, incidentally, considered herself much more "sophisticated" than Jane in both ways, but it's not that Jane's unsophisticated -- it's that she has _integrity_, both sexually and artistically. This is a point I do not think Allison could ever grasp.

(on Kevin and Brittany)

They are, after all, both "athletic", and that was probably the main requirement for the job. Kevin's main "reputation" (among those who don't know him) is that he's a good QB.

Heh-heh-heh, the little kids were robbing hem blind :)

(on Link)

Notice that this made Daria realize that her own home life isn't really all that bad, by comparison. At least her parents are still married.

I hope he gets mentioned again on the show.

(on Mack and Jodie)

And Mack is smart enough to _fully_ appreciate the boring humiliation of it all.

Yep.

It lays to rest the question of whether they really love each other. While they aren't as demonstrative towards each other, normally, as (frex) Kevin and Brittany, you could tell in this episode that they care a lot about each other, probably more than K and B do.

Trent's a nice guy, but he wouldn't be _human_ in this situation if he didn't torture Daria just a _little_.

She also made it obvious to Jane, without even knowing what had happened, that Jane had done exactly the right thing by rejecting Allison. Jane was able to realize that Allison _wasn't_ a nice person, and that the problem _wasn't_ in Jane's own lack of sophistication. Daria implicitly reaffirmed the desirability and importance of Jane's own values.

(which supports my point that Jane would have been a much unhappier person had she never met Daria).

That was a seriously noble thing for Jane to do, since the easiest way to avoid all potential problems with Daria over Tom would have been to simply shut up and let the love affair die. Jane showed exactly the same sort of strength and honesty that Trent displays, reminding us why we like both of them.

And Helen understood what Daria was doing, and trusted her to do it right.

Which goes to show that sometimes helping others can be directly good for oneself.

I actually don't think that _Daria_ is a pessimistic show. I think that, while its style of humor is very sarcastic, it's very optimistic in terms of what it says about the capacity of people to be decent and intelligent and true to themselves. The main characters are, in general, _good_ people, even though they seem nasty or scruffy on the outside.

Compare this with _most_ shows about high school. Either light-hearted (or sentimentally melodramatic) on the surface, but when you get right down to it the characters in _those_ shows are smug, petty little hypocrites, without a single genuine thought or emotion polluting the purity of their well-styled heads.

The really funny thing about the outtakes was that they were utterly out of "character", creating the fiction that the toons are being played by actors. That's meta-humor, at it's best :)

His voice-acting was excellent.

Dear Mike,

Many thanks for your new review. You know, a "scene summary" format (by now, a quintessential Mike Quinn bit) would ordinarily be boring or plodding, but it is a measure of your mastery in the art of review that I can read it (despite having seen the whole thing several times myself) and be on the edge of my chair the whole time. I bow before your awesome powers of observation, analysis, and composition!

Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

In article ,

or

that

I feel like I'm still getting the hang of it, but I'm obviously getting better (based solely on the responses I'm getting). If you told me when I started doing this that people would actually be waiting for reviews, I would have laughed at you.

Wow, Thanks!

I probably miss a lot, though (Joe, I needed to do that ;)

wrote:

Hey, Fella, you made my week. I was a little disappointed when I didn't get the review the week after the film aired, but I'm glad for the wait because it was a pleasant surprise when it did finally come. Thanks!

I think there's a lot to work with for the fifth season thanks to the movie.

Jeff M.

Yes, it was sad to see Stacy throw away an opportunity to improve herself because she was scared of Sandi.

I may have expected that blow-up between Daria and Tom to be the end of their relationship myself, but I was glad when it turned out not to be the end of their relationship. I like Daria, and I do like Tom as well.

You're right about Mr. O'Neill. And also, I wish he could've come right out and said that he didn't want to go outside because he was practically allergic to everything under the sun.

Allison did behave very badly. Jane was right to reject her.

Loved seeing the little kids rob Kevin and Brittany blind -- especially when they realized they could get away with it after the first kid's success. :)

I'd also like to see Link mentioned again on the show, and Carson Daly did do a fine job as Dave. So did most of the regular actors, btw, including Tracy Grandstaff as Daria, Wendy Hoopes as Jane, Helen, and Quinn, and Russel Hankins as Tom.

Belle Book

I guess Jordan isn't counting Sandi as a "main character," because to me Sandi's maliciousness runs very deep indeed. In fact, if I had to characterize anybody on "Daria" as evil, Sandi would be the one.

Down deep, Sandi must find her life extremely unfulfilling, but this isn't going to change unless she broadens her interests and widens her circle of friends. That in turn won't happen until she learns to listen to people, become more accepting of other people's differences, and talk nicer to people. It's going to take a lot of work, and I don't expect to see Sandi experiencing much growth on the show. She has far too much dramatic potential as a villain, which has not been explored on the show very much, from what I've seen.

Steve Cross

I also think Sandi's the one character that comes closest to an evil one. However, that's because she wants to be popular and attractive so badly that she acts extremely mean (most especially to Quinn). She's probably too set in her ways and too insecure to grow very much.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

Note her total failure to understand or respond to David in the movie.

The objective of Fashion Club is to be popular and attract boys, and Sandi would affirm that if you asked her, but the ways she behaves would tend to drive people away. Sandi's true goal, which she's probably not aware of, is to dominate and control people. That's the only way I can explain the cruel things she says to Stacey and Tiffany. Quinn deflects Sandi's bitter sarcasm with humor, which is to her credit.

Insecure, right. We don't know enough about her family life to make an educated guess about what made her so insecure.

Jordan said:

Right. She also made a reference to "my date tonight," which was a news flash to me. This mean-mouthed bitch goes on dates? I reckon she can be charming and ingratiating enough when "off-stage" to actually get a boy to ask her out. Does anybody besides me wonder what kind of guy would date Sandi? I'm guessing no guy would date her for long, however.

Steve Cross

Steve Cross said:

I agree.

Quinn is smarter and stronger-willed than either Stacy or Tiffany.

out.

I can believe it. She probably understands the superficialities of flirtation and sophisticated behavior. (I would also suspect she wouldn't be above giving minor sexual favors simply to get a guy to be seen with her, which is something Quinn apparently won't do, to Quinn's credit).

People like the Three J's, but a bit less goofy.

Note that Sandi is jealous of Quinn's ability to keep the Three J's interested.

Sandi would definitely drive me away -- if she didn't make me want to strangle her first.

Yes, Quinn is able to deflect Sandi's bitter sarcasm well, but she's smarter than Tiffany, and has a stronger will than Stacey (and I still hope Stacey develops a backbone someday).

No, but I saw that flashback in "Daria's Dance Party", and that gave me a rather good clue as to why she's so insecure. I'd bet a lot of it has to do with her mother.

Possibly. She might know quite a bit about how to make herself seem more charming than she actually is -- at least at first. But once the guy gets to know her better, he'll drop her faster than a hot potato.

As for who would date Sandi, perhaps somebody who's not as dumb as the Three J's, but is still on the shallow side.

Belle Book

Steve Cross said:

I'm not. So far, Sandi's been only a secondary character: Quinn's Fashion Club foe. She might get promoted to main character yet, but so far we know very little about her life save as it relates directly to Quinn.

IMO, the current "main characters" are Daria, Jane, Tom, Trent, Quinn, Helen, and Jake.

I agree. She is in some ways worse than Ms. Li, because Ms. Li isn't particularly _malicious_, only corrupt, greedy, and domineering. Sandi goes out of her way to be _cruel_.

I could see Sandi someday becoming more sympathetic -- if the show lasts a _long_ time -- but I think she's going to do something _really_ bad first.

On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 22:37:18 GMT, [email] (Steve Cross) wrote:

Actually, Sandi has been given a number of opportunities to show just how "unpleasant" she is.

As far as Sandi's motivations, you get a LOT of clues about them every time her mother is shown or mentioned. You can't help but wonder if Sandi's passing along what she gets herself. Japanese soldiers during WWII were treated like crap by their officers. They just couldn't wait to find somebody else to take it out on, and they were encouraged in this by those same officers.

I'd bet that Sandi's mom likes screwing with Sandi's head directly and other people's heads by proxy.

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

Christopher Morton said:

Oh, I'd assume so. Her mom's a bitch and her little brothers are nasty little brats.

But do we really know Sandi's brothers are like this? They locked Sandi et al outside in the snow during Daria Dance Party but all this shows is they don't like their sister very much. The consensus on this thread shows most balanced, reasonable people don't wouldn't like Sandi much either.

I'm not saying they aren't brats. Just saying they aren't necessarily brats.

they seemed like brats in... whichever other episode it was they were in. fair enough?

"miss bossy-parts" wrote in message news:[email]...

little

They've been in a handful of episodes where they've acted like brats....Gifted, Fair Enough, there are a couple more I think as well.

In article , "Jeg7777" wrote:

nasty

They have a cameo in "I Loathe a Parade", either Sam or Chris tries to catch candy thrown by the football team on his tongue (wrapper and all??). Cute gag, but they weren't being particularly bratty here. In other episodes, I remember them as bratty, but I can't cite specific examples.

I would put them in the brat category but... most boys that age fit into the brat category. They obviously dislike Sandy _a lot_ which all things considered, is not really a bad thing. :)

But they're also rude and foul mouthed and they don't listen to their parents. They're also very violent: ("Inquisition", "Kill the Dragon", etc.) Basically, I would put them in the same obnoxious little boy category as Brittany's brother. They're the kind of kids who would spend time, "torturing rats with a hacksaw and pulling the wings off of flies." (Sara's obscure quote of the day)

Sara

Hmm... so eventually we'll get a new character - sweet Michelle, who'll be one of the boys's high school romance. Poor girl. :)

Ah, those were the Good Old Days.

Don

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 02:12:46 GMT, Don Morris wrote:

They were also their obnoxious selves towards Mack in "Is It Fall Yet?", FYI.

o/` Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end. We'd sing and dance forever and a day. We'd live the live we choose, we'd fight and never lose. Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days! o/`

Sam and Chris Griffin were in "Is It Fall Yet?"? Remind me to take a good look at the scenes with Mack in the ice-cream truck.

Belle Book

In article , [email] wrote:

I've never seen any of the episodes that feature Sandi's mom. It would interest me greatly.

Steve Cross

Have you seen "Daria's Dance Party"? It doesn't feature Sandi's mom in a direct sense (i.e., having her appear in person), but we do see a flashback from Sandi in which we see Sandi's mother berating Sandi for a failed party. I don't remember her words from the flashback off the top of my head, but they were really mean and cruel, and they went a long way to explaining why Sandi went out of her way to be cruel to Quinn.

Belle Book

On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 07:36:18 -0400, Christopher Morton wrote:

Remember "Daria Dance Party"? Sandi (in flashback) is complaining about how she believes she got screwed when she volunteered to help with her middle school dance, while Linda is towering over her with a self-satisfied smirk. "I told you, Sandi, to volunteer is to say, 'Use me.'" Yes, Sandi is very definitely learning from the best in the Madame Bitch department.

wrote:

If you really want to be sympathetic, you might say there was a point in Sandi's life, as shown in the flashback, when she was a bit human. Now, of course.......

Jeff M.

Who is awaiting the day of the final confrontation between Quinn and Sandi

I remember that flashback very well. Yes, Sandi definitely learned most of her ways from Linda.

Belle Book

Martin P. said:

And don't forget Linda's appearances in "Gifted" (NOW I know why Helen always refers to Linda as "that witch") and especially in "Fair Enough" (the archery competition against Helen; that cruel smile she & Sandi shared when the play wound up a disaster & poor Quinn wound up humiliated. Sandi is very much her mother's daughter.

WARNING: the following observation contains references to Season 4 eps & Is It Fall Yet. Reader discretion advised. (BTW, if you're reading this: Hi, Father Martin!)

(Oh, & have y'all written those letters yet? Address is my sig!)

(And it seems Mr. Graden is now PRESIDENT of Programming at MTV! Congrats, Brian!)

(end of spoiler)

I can't help but wonder how Linda would react upon learning that Daria is also Helen's daughter. Would she try to dismiss Daria as a "loser," while at the same time turning puke green with envy b/c Helen has a daughter is on High Honor Roll (& if Quinn continues on her present course, she could be, too!), while her own daughter has as much chance of graduating from high school & going to college as an actual mannequin? And what about those two bratty sons of hers? Can you imagine the two of them getting into serious trouble, & Linda having to ask Helen to represent them in court ? (I smell FANFIC!)

And where is poor Tom Griffin in all this -- still wondering if he should've married the kind-hearted Patty Wells, mole & all, instead of the rather cold-hearted Linda? (I mean, ambitious is one thing, but DAMN - - she comes off as the type who'll step on everyone's toes on her way to the top. It'll be fun to watch her realize that the toes she crushed on the way up belong to the same folks whose butts shell have to kiss on the way down. And Sandi will probably follow in her mom's footsteps & learn the same harsh lessons.

Refer to "The Daria Database" & Fair Enough if you're wondering where I got this info on Sandi's dad. Which leads me to another question. . .

*What's up with the name "Tom?"*

So far, 3 characters have shared this name. First, the immortal Tommy Sherman. Then, there's Tom Griffin (who so far has only appeared in "Fair Enough"). And of course, there's Tom Sloane. I haven't put my VCR on "Slow" or "Pause" to check the credits for anyone named "Tom." Does anyone have any take on this "Tom Phenomenon?"

OK, I'm through rambling now. (sorry.)

PLEASE write those letters. Paperpusher says Mr. Graden's only been getting 5-10 letters a day. THAT'S *NOT* ENOUGH!

Cricket

*SAVE DARIA!* Write to:

Mr. Brian Graden PRESIDENT of Programming (he's been promoted, apparently) MTV Networks 1515 Broadway New York, NY 10036

In article , [email] (Cricket) wrote:

I didn't have cable till just recently. I hope to see those shows someday. I find it interesting that Helen and Linda know each other. How did that happen?

I think Sandi will probably graduate from *that* high school. So far as anyone knows, she hasn't had to repeat any grades, despite her disdain for anyone with ambitions of doing well in school.

Sounds like a good idea for a Fanfic. I'd write Daria fanfics myself, if I weren't more interested in my own fiction ideas.

The descent into hell of Linda and Sandi would be fun to watch, if the shows lasts long enough to have that happen.

I did wonder what kind of poor slemazzel would beget Sandi. Is he still married to Linda? I had the impression that Sandi's mom would probably cycle her way through 3 or 4 brief marriages before giving up, but I may be wrong, since I wasn't aware of the show before season 3.

Laziness on the part of the writers, or an inside joke. Is Tom sudden that uncommon a name? I didn't think so. Shouldn't there be at least one male character named Bill, Steve, or John?

Steve Cross

I probably think it's laziness. They have so many characters running on the series and it's too much work to keep track of names.

Jeff M.

**WARNING: the following post contains references to S4 episodes & the movie Is It Fall Yet. Viewer discretion is advised.**

But then, with that many characters on the show, wouldn't it make sense to try NOT to have THREE of them with the same name? That sort of "laziness" might lead to confusion for someone who hasn't kept up with the show (missed episodes; not all eps have aired overseas, just came back from the dead, etc.)And, if you're gonna be lazy, why not just use the name Bob over & over? I don't think there *have* been any Bobs on the show -- oh, no wait, there was that Bobby in "Fire!" -- my mistake. Anyway, I'm pretty sure there haven't been any Johns on the show (no toilet jokes, please -- let's have a LITTLE class) or Freds, or Bills or Steves or Ryans. Although, these could be the MIDDLE names of some characters --Mack & Jodie are the only ones know to have middle names; for all we know, Kevin's middle name could be John. (Whatever.)

Then again, we still haven't met all the PARENTS of the Lawndale High students (e.g., we still haven't seen Mack's father, although he's been mentioned before; we also have yet to see Tiffany & Stacy's parents -- there could be a Bob or two in that bunch.)

And while I'm on the topic of characters we haven't seen yet, I am anxiously awaiting the appearance of some of the folks from the Daria books, namely:

Danny Moreno (Jesse's bro) Charles Ruttheimer II (Upchuck Sr.) Vivian Taylor (Brittany's biological mother) Rachel & Evan Landon (Jodie's younger siblings) Andrea's brother (mentioned only in her comic stripin The Daria Database)

Also interesting to see: Summer Lane's other two kids Nicholas' kid (mentioned on MTV's Daria website, on the Mystik Spiral page) and the kid's mother Mrs. Barch's ex-husband The other partners in Helen's law firm Mr. & Mrs. Barksdale (Helen's parents) Other members of the Morgendorffer family (In "Jake of Hearts", Grandma Ruth made mention of having raised more than one child -- wonder how Jake's sibling(s) survived their childhoods w/Mad Dog Morgendorffer?) Mad Dog Morgendorffer himself (in flashbacks, of course)

Granted, I'd only want to see characters when they are integral to the plots & not just thrown in there. As much as I'd like to see more of Aunt Amy, I don't want to see her character wasted just for the sake of an appearance. And, I hope that in future seasons, they don't OD us on cameo appearances as they've done recently (in other words, it's time Mrs. Johansen moved away from Lawndale -- and took Artie with her).

Finally, there are two folks from IIFY I'd like to see more of (& most likely will): Elsie (who will probably appear w/Tom & their parents occasionally in S5) & David (I actually DO like Carson Daly-- he's no Martha Quinn but he's sure as hell no Kurt "Smarm-Ass" Loder either)

Okay, I've gone off topic long enough tonight. To wrap this up:

1) Linda & Sandi are bona fide bitches who deserve their comeuppance (the nastier, the better); 2) There are too many Toms on this show; 3) There are lots of potentially interesting characters who are NOT named Tom that I'd like to see; and 4) There are so many characters on this show that Season 5 just doesn't seem to be enough to contain them all. I think we'll need ANOTHER SEASON to meet them all.

(Am I subtle, or am I subtle? If you've been reading my posts for the last 2 months, you'll know what I'm gonna say next. . . )

WRITE THOSE LETTERS FOR SEASON 6 if you haven't already!

See ya!

Oh yeah, Mike -- kick ass review! ;-) (Final grade: A+ )

Cricket

*SAVE DARIA!* Write to:

Mr. Brian Graden PRESIDENT of Programming (he's been promoted, apparently) MTV Networks 1515 Broadway New York, NY 10036

In article , [email] (Cricket) wrote:

Thanks, your praise is greatly appreciated ;)

I would love to meet Mack's Dad. Based on what's been hinted at thus far he sounds like a control freak of the first order

I think we've a better chance of seeing Rachel and Evan than the other characters.But then again who knows?

I definately liked Elsie a lot from the couple of appearances she made in IIFY. It didn't seem like she and Tom liked each too much which would make for some interesting story. And I would like to see David again. As Quinn's maturity progresses (which it will; she ain't going back to stupid again) it would be nice for him to make a cameo to see how things are going.

Ow. I agree.

No complaints. How about some Franks?

Ok. Can we not be subtle here? :)

I have, thanks!

AGREED.

Jeff M.

In article ,

Me too, but not too likely.

Possible, we did see his mother last year.

Unlikely.

Would love to see their reactions to having the supersister.

Very unlikely.

I'd love to see all of them myself as well.

Naaaaaaahhh. :-)

Elsie, I'm very interested in, she seems to be a richer version of Daria, is that what Tom sees in Daria, his sister and subconciously wants someone like her even though they don't appear to like each other on the surface, I can't wait to see her reactions to Daria's family, especially Quinn.

David, though I would like to see him again as well, I don't think we would, the only legitimate way to see him again is if he checked up with Quinn's progress after the tutoring, and while that's plausible, it just doesn't seem likely, IMO. Wouldn't mind seeing how Link's situation could be continued on the show and possibly resolved.

Hell yeah!

Laziness, the writers probably don't even realize it, which is no real problem, IMO.

Me too.

I think so.

Subtle as a brick:-)

Yeah!

I totally agree.

A.J.

Maybe. She could also be simply ... sarcastic, without Daria moral underpinning.

In article ,

I didn't think she had Daria's morality, not any people do, they both seem to be sarcastic and cynical, now Elsie will be hard pressed to be as sarcastic or as cynical as Daria is, they just seem to be very much alike outside of their families monetary standings in life. I still can't wait to see how she views her brothers' girlfriends family, that's going to be one for the record books.

A.J.

In article ,

[email] (Cricket) wrote:

Daria is also

while at the

on High

be, too!),

school &

I was wondering how Linda would react to the fact that Daria thinks nothing of the petty rivalries her mother and sister with her and her daughter have except for contempt.

Furthermore, the fact that she is dating the son of the Sloans, the richest family in Lawndale, must truly confound her while she wonders how that quiet intellectual girl managed to pull that off.

kchishol wrote:

I also wonder if Sandi & the other members of the Fashion Club could get past the sight of Tom's car long enough to realize that he's from the wealthiest family in town (they probably could; after all, money can make anybody -- or anything -- beautiful). And won't Sandi give Quinn a hard time about the fact that "that girl who lives with Quinn" is going out with the richest boy in Lawndale!

Yep -- the Griffin girls should turn day-glo puke green with envy (next on Sick Sad World).

Cricket

*SAVE DARIA!* Write to:

Mr. Brian Graden PRESIDENT of Programming (he's been promoted, apparently) MTV Networks 1515 Broadway New York, NY 10036

Cricket said:

SANDI (nastily): Why does such a _supposedly_ rich boy have such a _not-rich_ car?

QUINN: Well, Sandi, when you have a _lot_ of money you don't have to try as hard to make people _know_ you have a lot of money.

SANDI (agressively): I _trust_ that_ you are unaware that this is close to a violation of the Fashion Club Positive Attitude Requirement?

STACI (innocently): We _have_ a positive atti --

SANDI glares at her.

STACI (in a small voice): sorry.

That would backfire -- it enhances Quinn's status, rather than degrading it.

i'm willing to bet that daria would become quinn's sister pretty damn quickly if sandi found that out.

In article ,

boy in

degrading it.

Are you refering to the reflective glory that she has a "cousin" who managed to land such a desirable boyfriend?

Kchisol said:

Yep. The exact relationship Quinn has to Daria matters less than the fact that Quinn has access to Daria's attention.

SPOILERS FOR IS IT FALL YET AND DYE DYE MY DARLING! - - - - - - - - - - - - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED - - - - - - - - - - LAST CHANCE TO TURN BACK - - - - - - - - - - ,

fact that

Of course, that may (and probably will) be how Sandi (and maybe Tiffany and Stacey) see it. But one thing I noticed in IIFY was that Quinn was the only person (of those who knew Daria well at all) who seems to take Daria and Tom's relationship as absolutely normal and unremarkable - this includes Daria and Tom themselves!

Daria can't bring herself to utter the phrase "my boyfriend" early in the episode. Tom is still obsessed with Daria's lack of dating experience and trying to accomodate for it. Jane, understandably, is still vacillating between "you took something that belongs to me" and "I'm not mad, but I don't want to talk about it". Trent tells Daria "the Tom thing" will be OK and then serenades her with a guilt- inducing song. Helen and Jake plan for the arrival of Daria's First Boyfriend at their house like it was a major diplomatic event; Brittany and Kevin see it as a big soap opera; Jodie has to be informed that hell has frozen over, even after learning that Tom and Jane broke up.

Quinn off-handedly remarks that Tom and Daria are obviously compatible. No surprise that her heretofore anti-social sister actually has a boyfriend; or that he's good-looking, smart and rich; or that he was so recently Jane's boyfriend.

The biggest effect on Quinn is that she breaks long-standing patterns of behavior and tries to INITIATE a relationship with a BRAINY guy - apparently she wants the sort of relationship Daria has with Tom?

Not what I expected from Quinn after DDMD ended. Season five should be, in the immortal words of Arte Johnson, "verrrry interestingggg!".

Emerson)

M Man said:

SPOILERS for "Is It Fall Yet?"
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That's a good point. It implies, incidentally, that Quinn has _always_ realized that Daria's "unpopularity" was by her own choice, and realized it better than Daria ever did herself.

Daria's _very_ shy about anything romantic or even implicitly sexual, as regards herself. This was shown as early as "ILL" (1st season).

Tom is a sophisticate from a subculture that assumes sophistication to be the total norm.

Jane's pissed, but loves Daria anyway.

Ditto.

Helen and Jake (especially Helen) are well aware that Daria's normally a hermit, are incredibly happy that she's finally taking an interest in boys, and don't want to screw things up for her. More proof, if more was needed, that they really do love her.

Brittany and Jodie are Daria's friends, but she's never permitted them to know her _too_ well.

Quinn has known Daria all her life. Quinn is well aware of how incredibly charismatic Daria can be, when she chooses to display it.

Showing that Quinn is smart enough to realize that Daria is having, with Tom, something Quinn herself has never known -- a truly loving relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Quinn doesn't love, or even strongly like, most of the guys she dates.

Actually, I think "Ill" was in the second season, but that's a minor point. You're right -- Daria's extremely shy about anything romantic or even implicitly sexual -- that brief kiss Tom gave her in "Is It Fall Yet?" is certainly proof positive that she is shy in that area -- she blushed after that kiss. Of course, part of her uncomfortableness could have been due to the fact that she might still feel guilty that Tom's no longer dating Jane, and Daria's feeling responsible, or simply due to the fact that she'd have to explain to everyone that Tom's dating her and not Jane.

Tom may indeed be from a subculture that assumes sophistication to be the total norm, but his attempt to accomodate for Daria's lack of dating experience does speak well for him -- even if he goes about accomodating for it the wrong way. By saying that it speaks well for him, I mean Tom knows she's not as experienced at dating as he is, and at least he's trying to help her out. However, that doesn't mean he didn't make several mistakes in the process.

I agree -- Jake and Helen do really love Daria, but they just go too far in their attempt not to screw things up.

I never connected the fact that Quinn is trying to have a relationship with David to the fact that Daria's having a truly loving relationship -- or at least trying to -- with Tom. Very interesting point. I definitely know Quinn doesn't love, and usually doesn't even strongly like, most of the guys she dates.

Belle Book

Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message ...

Remember the episode with the holidays (season 3?) when Daria was hit with Cupid's arrow? She got a dreamy, you might say sappy, look and said "Trent" as though she were going to melt. Then she became aware of what she was doing and a look of horror came to her face.

But I don't remember her being shy with the fake boob.

the

Maybe that means he's trying to be gentle with her in a vertical way. :)

I think Brittany believes Daria "stole" Tom from Jane..and that scored points with Brittany; new respect for Daria. As long as she doesn't get neurotic about Daria stealing Kevin (again).

know

Yes, Jane's the only one who's been allowed that close.

Tom,

a

of

There's an idea for the new season: Quinn trying too hard to like a guy who asks her out, when it's obviously not a good fit.

Joe

Men who never make passes At women who wear glasses Are asses. --Rita Rudner

Smart women are sexy. --Joe

Well, actually it was Helen and Jake who were hit by Cupid's arrows. Cupid took Daria's hand in his, and used a trick where he had her become very dreamy and then he had her say the one word that would make her "feel like Queen Cleopatra". That's when she said, "Trent", and then realized just WHAT she said.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean when you say that maybe Tom's "trying to be gentle with [Daria] in a vertical way". Could you explain it further?

Belle Book

Getting horizontal" is slang for having sex. Vertical, well, would be both of them, as flight attendants say, in their original upright position.

I should stop when I'm behind, right? :)

In plain English, I don't see Tom as obsessed with Daria's dating inexperience, but aware of it...and trying to make things easier for her.

Joe

In article , "Joe Lancello" wrote:

Tom's

explain it

be both

So how much dating experience did Jane have? Tom didn't appear to do anything special towards Jane in this regard.

"Obsessed" may be a strong word, but he's close to it. He seems to worry about it more than Daria does.

In article ,

Jane has at least had some experience with guys, Daria has had zero, and the "crush" doesn't count.

Because he cares and wants to see this work, so if he has to go slow, with her, so be it, she doesn't worry about it because she's never had dating and relationships high on her priority list before this.

A.J.

In article , [email] wrote:

maybe

would

position.

for

and the

Daria was doing OK with Ted DeWitt-Clinton in "The New Kid", before Ted's sudden personality change.

I agree that the crush on Trent doesn't count.

with

dating and

But Daria's biggest problem with Tom is that she's afraid of getting hurt (like Jane did!) which is USUALLY not a product of inexperience, but rather the opposite: the experience of being burned a time or two.

Daria certainly hasn't had the problem of "what to say on a first date" or anything with Tom. After all, they knew each other while Tom dated Jane and conversed quite easily - too easily for Jane's comfort by "Fire!". And Daria seems to have figured out about kissing and hugging very well.

Of course, Daria is sexually inexperienced, but I don't think that's what Tom is referring to.

Daria's going to resent, if she hasn't already, any indication that Tom is condescending to her, being "careful" with her, treating her as "fragile".

In article ,

D'oh! The things I forget around 2 or so in the morning, but that never got serious, yet I see where you're coming from.

The biggest things was guilt , the inexperience if you will, of going out with your best friends ex and knowing it's hurting her friend and herself tremendously, and doesn't want to be hurt anymoreso, you're right in that respect.

Not at all.

Nope, as far as anything sexually, from all he'd seen of her before they started going out, he'd have known she'd be inexperienced, and he accepted that.

She's very strong willed, if she gave in and became more open displaying her feelings, she'd not only resent him, but herself for being weak as well.

A.J.

Joe wrote:

Thanks for clarifying things for me. I also don't think Tom's obsessed with Daria's lack of experience, just trying to help her out, but please from now on, say things in plain English. I'm not familiar with such colorful language.

Belle Book

In article ,

take

_always_ realized

better than

or

incredibly

Not only is Quinn aware of this. Jane is too. And despite his non- response to Daria's earlier crush on him, so is Trent.

As angry as Jane was with Daria by the end of DDMD, Jane must have been tempted to say something like "But you're a geek! What does Tom see in you?" Or to Tom, "she's a dork! What can you be thinking?" But she never says or even vaguely implies any such thing. Even at her angriest, Jane never questions Tom's judgement at finding Daria attractive.

In fact, while Daria honestly protests that it's impossible to imagine her "making out with anyone, ever", Jane replies with a weak joke "can I stop short of your wedding night?", but clearly Jane disagrees with Daria. More generally, Jane's unspoken attitude throughout "Fire!" and DDMD is that Daria is clearly attractive enough to interest Tom.

This is also what Trent meant when he told Daria to stop "playing dumb". Daria just won't believe that Tom is falling for her, but Trent doesn't find it strange at all.

In their last conversation in DDMD, Jane ruefully tells Daria that "Tom and you make more sense than Tom and me" and seems to honestly mean it.

M Man said:

Trent is, after all, one of the people who has felt the effects of Daria's charisma.

Daria persuaded him to keep following his dream ("Road Worrier"), and again to try to be less lazy ("Jane's Addition"). In both cases he took her advice to heart and followed it, with results we are beginning to see (Mystik Spiral is taking off).

attractive.

And why not? It's not sexual in her case, but _Jane_ clearly finds Daria attractive, as a person.

... since Trent probably has fallen for her too.

In article , [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

I don't recall the episode, but Trent once said something to Daria like, "Too bad you're not a few years older." Well, Daria will be a few years older, unless an asteroid the size of Texas hits Lawndale.

Steve Cross

That was "Lane Miserables"!

:-)

Steve Cross wrote in message news:8svp1d$jtq$[email]...

"Too

In article ,

Daria's

again to

advice to

Spiral is

Which brings up a POSSIBLE (by no means inevitable) season 5 development.

Consider that, up until now, Jane has been Daria's only real friend of any sort. But now Daria has a boyfriend. And she's becoming much closer to her own family, particularly Quinn (that heart-to-heart about David, e. g.). Despite the fact that Jane and Daria seem to have patched things up over "the Tom thing", Jane is not going to be all- important to Daria anymore.

Now, consider Jane's position. She's lost her boyfriend. Daria's not going to spend all her free time with Jane anymore. If Mystik Spiral becomes successful enough, they'll probably go on tours, and Jane won't have Trent around anymore - and he's the only reason she came out of the whole Tom-Jane-Daria triangle with her sanity and Daria's friendship.

No Tom. Less Trent. Less Daria.

Jane could end up a damn lonely girl.

None of this is inevitable. Jane could meet the love of her life in episode 501. Trent might not go anywhere. But it could happen. Easily.

In article ,

and

about

won't

Yikes. This is true! Well, there is now a good potential for Jane to begin palling around with Andrea. I mean, we've been speculating for a while now, since "Mart...", that they're going to do something with her. Andrea may still be a little wary of Daria (or Jane), and if Jane comes offering friendship, Andrea could end up being the one Jane goes to if/when the Daria/Tom thing starts bothering her again, to sound off and complain about it. Then when Daria feels like hanging out with Jane, she may find herself competing with Andrea for the time. Of course, why would the show spend so much time focusing on Jane & Andrea?...there's a reason it's called "Daria". I just want to uncover some of the mystery that is Andrea. For all it's worth, they could just as easy have Jodie, who both have talked to during the height of their conflict, do just the same thing.

Tice Rust said:

And Andrea is more likely to make friends with Jane than with Andrea, since Jane is (ironically) less scary than Daria. (I say "ironically" because Jane's stereotype is that of the "freak", but in fact Jane is a more tolerant, less critical, and less seriously sharp-tongued person than is Daria, which makes her less threatening).Andrea also shares Jane's artistic interests.

Quite possibly. By the way, note that Andrea was one of the people who witnessed Daria's unfortunately public declaration "I kissed your boyfriend".

Jodie, too, might play a larger role in the series. I could see her gravitating towards closer friendship with Daria -- she's gotten along well with Daria on several occasions, and intellectually they are well matched. She even has a deep sarcastic streak, which she normally keeps muted but which with Daria she clearly feels somewhat safe revealing (significantly, Mack is one of the only other people she trusts enough to do that with, and Mack's not just her "boyfriend", he's obviously her "childhood sweetheart" as well).

In article ,

a

her.

since

because Jane's

tolerant, less

makes

comes

Jane,

boyfriend".

And, if all Andrea knows is this and Jane's side of the story, she might come to see Daria as a manipulative friend that Jane needs to ditch. This could make an interesting episode.

Tice Rust said:

Ooh, that's true. That's true even if Jane (as she probably would) tries to avoid blaming Daria. Someone who only knew Jane well would assume that Jane's just too nice for her own good -- as to some extent she is, and as was her main fictional model, Jane Bennett.

Ooh

In article ,

might

tries to

that Jane's

was her main

But in some ways Jane's not so nice. She takes people for granted, for one thing. Of course, she put Daria on the back burner when she first met Tom. And did the same thing much earlier in "See Jane Run".

She did much the same thing with Tom. I thought Tom was awfully generous in their "swingset conversation" in DDMD when he said that Jane "likes to do things on her own terms." She does whatever she wants and other people can do it her way or take a hike. Tom (and Daria) spent an awful lot of time just hanging around when Jane was working on art projects, despite the fact that neither had much interest in art - none at all outside of the fact that it was important to Jane. In "Fire!", Tom could go with Jane to a "blood-sucking eyeball" movie or nothing. No chance of going to a movie Tom would like, like the Fellini film Daria told him about.

(Trotsky)

In article ,

*blink* I never made that connection. And Daria is Lizzy, and Quinn is (or was) Kitty. Cool! Somehow, though, I don't quite see Tom as Darcy. David perhaps...

-Ashley should be working

Hello. I'm new here. Well, actually, I'm new to this whole Internet/Newsgroup thing. I prefer relaxing with a good book than racing down the Information Superhighway. Part of the reason I'm a fan of the show "Daria".

But I am a fan, and when I couldn't see any new episodes, as I haven't lately, I just thought I'd look up what was available on the Web. I've certainly been pleased to discover the concept of "Fan Fiction."

I've also enjoyed following the discussions in this newsgroup. I wasn't sure I had anything to contribute, so I just read the posts in my spare time.

I'm responding now because, frankly, I'm hoping SOMEONE can explain this reference to me:

"Someone who only knew Jane well would assume that Jane's just too nice for her own good -- as to some extent she is, and as was her main fictional model, Jane Bennett."

"I never made that connection. And Daria is Lizzy, and Quinn is (or was) Kitty. Cool! Somehow, though, I don't quite see Tom as Darcy. David perhaps..."

Thank you.

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable.

Pierces888://

It's a ref to the characters of Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. HTH :)

Someone who only knew Jane well would assume that Jane's

her main

Where was this connection made? Did the scriptwriters really model her after Jane Bennett?

Aurorica said:

In my head.

Not totally sure, but the basic concept of the _Daria_ series, including some of the main character types and relationships, is very reminiscent of Jane Austen's novel _Pride and Prejudice_. In particular:

Elizabeth ("Lizzie") Bennett is a highly intelligent, principled, and sensible young woman who pokes fun at the foibles of the people around her. She has an elder sister, Jane, who is extremely good-natured, and three younger sisters, of whom:

Mary affects religiousity and scholarship in order to increase her perceived status,

Kitty is somewhat immature and a natural follower, going so far as to be led by the youngest,

Lydia, who is silly, selfish, airheaded, and seriously amoral, who winds up seduced by the rake Wickham, and who of the younger sisters is the strongest contrast to Elizabeth -- and the probable model for Quinn Morgendorffer. _Unlike_ Quinn, Lydia is genuinely amoral -- Quinn's morals are more like Kitty's, real but veiled by her silliness. Incidentally, in the movie, Quinn was behaving like Mary, partially to impress David.

Elizabeth's father is also highly intelligent and sensible, and in strong contrast to Elizabeth's flighty mother (the strong implication being that Lizzie has modelled herself on her father, and Lydia on her mother). The Morgendorffer parents are just like this, with the genders reversed.

The major difference between Lizzie and Daria is that Daria is more genuinely alienated than Lizzie -- but to an extent that's an artifact of the times. Modern America is a much freer society than late 18th century England, and Lizzie can only take her non-conformity so far lest she be _truly_ rejected by society, and suffer consequences more severe than any that Daria faces. Lizzie is also _older_ than Daria (around 20 as opposed to around 16), and thus has greater poise.

Jane Bennet is older than Lizzie and is Lizzie's main confidante, especially after Lizzie becomes somewhat alienated from her former best friend Charlotte (because Charlotte marries the vapid clergyman Mr. Collins out of pure convenience, which offends Lizzie's principles). Jane is extremely sweet-natured and trusting, and this causes her some serious problems later on in the story.

Mr. Darcy, Lizzie's main love interest, is in some ways similar to Trent and in some ways similar to Tom.

Like Trent, he has a younger sister (Georgiana) of whom he is protective, and a less intelligent and forceful friend who early becomes a love interest for someone close to the main character (*). Like Tom, he is of higher status and greater wealth. Incidentally, by hurting Jane Bennett through inducing Mr. Bingley to break their engagement, he does something similar to what Tom does to Jane Lane (namely, "jilts her").

(*) Of course, in the case of Trent, the "younger sister" and the person who is involved early with the friend are one and the same person, Jane Lane. But I never said that _Daria_ was an exact model of PoP, merely that it was inspired by it.

Mr. Wickham, Darcy's main rival, is also in some ways similar to both of them. Like Trent, the main female character is initially drawn to him but then is alienated from him once more of his nature is revealed. Like Tom, he proves unreliable in love.

In my opinion, the "Pride and Prejudice" fantasy sequence in "Write Where It Hurts" is a major clue as to the writers' main source of inspiration.

I also think that _Daria_ is going to take the basic plot structure of _Pride and Prejudice_ one step further.

In _Pride and Prejudice_, Lizzie originally has a good opinion of Wickham and a bad opinion of Darcy (the "Prejudice" referred to in the title), until further information shows her that in fact Darcy is a good albeit overly proud man, and Wickham a scoundrel.

In _Daria_, Daria originally has a good opinion of Trent and a bad opinion of Tom, and now has rejected Trent and fallen in love with Tom. I think that further information will lead her to develop a better opinion of Trent, and a worse opinion of Tom.

This is just a hunch, but I think that there were clues to this as early as "Fire!"

In article ,

Wickham and a

until further

proud man, and

opinion of

that

Trent, and a

early as

That's an interesting thought. What were the clues in "Fire!"?

(Trotsky)

M. Man said:

Trent behaves very maturely in the whole trilogy composed of "Fire!", "Dye Dye My Darling", and "Is It Fall Yet?" Trent shows very real senstivity towards both Jane and Daria, and puts their needs before his own. (His one real lapse, the "Betrayal" torture scene, is the sort of thing someone still interested in Daria would do). He also shows that he is seriously pursuing his career and improving his musical skills -- if you recall, his lack of "seriousness" and "reliability" was why Daria initially rejected him, but he has recently been acting both serious and reliable.

Tom is amusing and considerate, and genuinely likes both Jane and Daria, but I don't see any indication that he's ever _loved_ either of them. Maybe I'm just mad at him for hurting Jane, I don't know -- but I think that in the long run he's going to turn out to be less than he seems. Not "evil" -- just "ordinary."

In article ,

of "Fire!", "Dye Dye

towards

real lapse,

interested in

Why is this something someone still interested in Daria would do?

of "seriousness" and

recently been

True enough, Trent was been more serious and reliable. However, he's always been serious about music.

I think it's important to remember that there's no real evidence that Daria ever had a serious, mature interest in Trent. That was truly a schoolgirl crush.

Even if Trent if more serious, could Daria really be interested in him? I think there's too much of an intellectual mismatch there. Remember who else Daria was interested in before Tom or Trent? Ted DeWitt-Clinton, who was even brainier (and less worldly) than Daria! I just don't see Daria going for someone notably less intellectual than herself.

Daria, but I

I'm just

long run

just "ordinary."

It's a bit early to see how much Tom loves Daria - or vice versa.

With regard to Jane -

1. If you're referring the "The Kiss", Daria did as much to hurt Jane as Tom did.

• Why would Tom truly love Jane? She's not been very lovable.

She invaded his privacy with Jane-Cam, was completely irrational over the Gummi Bears, screamed at him and hung up the phone in DDMD, expected him to stand by for hours while she was engrossed in art projects, generally insists on doing everything her way (the "blood- sucking eyeball" movie vs the Fellini film), belittles his family as "Muffies", on and on and on.

Tom's biggest fault is that he put up with her crap for so long. In IIFY, he looks like he's being more confrontational with Daria. Good for him. The result with be either (a) a better relationship, or (b) a quicker and less hurtful ending to it. Had he been this way with Jane, I truly believe the result would have been (b), not (a).

In case you haven't guessed, I'm not the biggest Jane Lane fan on this ng :-) I've also not always been happy with how Jane's treated Daria.

Example: Jane's blow-up over the hair-dye job. I almost think of this as "Gummi Bear 2". She blamed Daria over the dye-job just as irrationally as she blamed Tom over the Gummi Bears. In "Mart of Darkness", Daria pointed out some very simply logical facts to Jane about the incident, and Trent did the same in DDMD.

Example: compare Jane's (wild over-)reaction to Daria's (lame) "breaking wind" joke in "See Jane Run" to Daria's endurance of Jane's continual teasing in "Through a Lens Darkly" - in that episode Brittany was better friend to Daria than Jane.

Example: near the end of IIFY Jane admonishes Daria over placing their friendship jeapordy over a boyfriend. Just go back to "Jane's Addition" and "Partner's Complaint" - the pot is calling the kettle black.

I'm not saying Jane has never been a good friend to Daria - obviously that's not the case. But, like Tom, Daria has put up with a lot of crap from Jane. And I don't think that will continue in season 5 - because Daria will never again be so dependent on one person for companionship - not even if she breaks up with Tom.

(Trotsky)

In article ,

I don't think he ever totally loved Jane. He tried, but as time went on and the differences came out into the open he saw things getting worse and so he left her. He wasn't right starting with Daria (the kiss) before he was "through" with Jane, but that's a point for another time.

I don't see him as being confrontational with Daria, in IIFY, she was the one avoiding him, and when it got down to it she was the one looking for a way out before she got started, so she picked the fight, if anyone was being confrontational, it was her not Tom.

On the point if Tom was more confrontational with Jane, you're right, it wouldn't have lasted anywhere as long as it did, it seems logical enough.

Excellent point here.

I think she will continue to do so. They'll never be back where they were friendship wise pre Jane's Addition, but They will still be fairly strong, though if anything came up which was serious enough, she does have other people, namely her family, possibly Jodie, to go to. But, I still don't see anything that will tear them apart personally, if they survived the whole Tom incident, they can survive pretty much anything.

As far as Daria/Tom, I think it can last, not saying it will, the events of the last year and in the way they came together won't be easily forgotten, but I think they can get by that and give it a go. Though I do see Trent as becoming more responsible, I don't see him with Daria unless he steps in and tries to help with a very messy breakup with her and Tom, and she would get him on the rebound, though this is highly unlkely, it is possible.

A.J.

In article , [email] wrote:

senstivity

he's

that

a

Daria! I

than

Maybe

the

Jane

over

on and

and so he

Good

(b) a

Jane,

the one

a way

being

By "confrontational", I was referring to the fact that Tom insisted that, while he wasn't to pursie the relationship, Daria had to try as much as he or it was over. And that he told Daria to her face that he thought she was picking a fight with him to hide the fact that she was afraid of getting hurt and therefore setting out to sabotage the relationship before it truly got underway.

it

enough.

this

Daria.

this

of

episode

their

I don't usually "talk" to the TV while I'm watching, but I recall saying something like "you ****ing hypocrite" to Jane at this point the first time I watched the episode.

obviously

were

strong,

other

don't see

whole Tom

events of

forgotten,

Trent as

in and

would get

Possible. But I don't think it would LAST.

[email] wrote:

I don't think that the Betrayal thing was in any way an indication of his feelings for Daria. I think it was done for comic relief in a very heavy (for Daria) show. Yes, they are writing Trent more mature but he hasn't changed _that_ much. He's still scatterbrained enough to lead to good comic material.

They are still in high school. There is nothing to suggest that Tom was in love with either one of them or that he ever will be (noting the difference between "loving someone" and "being in love with someone", i.e. I love my best friend but I'm not _in love_ with her.)

Plus, do you remember _any_ high school romance that didn't, in the end, turn out to be "ordinary." Generally people are too immature and self absorbed to deal with a real relationship that could last 50 years. And most of the time, that's how it should be. There is no reason for any of us to expect that Tom should be in love with either one of them. He enjoys Daria's company and is attracted to her - that's good enough for now in my book.

I was ticked over the dye job conversation - not because of how it started, but because of how it ended: Daria goes to the Lane house after being ignored for doing nothing wrong (at that point) and apologizes. I really felt that Jane owed Daria big time for the way she treated her and I waited for the apology that didn't come. There was no reason for Daria to feel bad but she guilted herself into feeling like the worst friend in the world. And Jane did nothing to clear that up. Even though I thought that the whole Daria/Tom thing was wrong, I do believe that Jane _almost_ deserved what she got.

Sara

SM said:

Actually, yes. I know of at least one or two which led to long-lasting marriages.

But I agree that this is rarely the outcome, for the reasons you gave.

M Man said:

Combination of not being happy, deep-down, that Daria's seeing someone else, and not being happy about Daria's role in causing his sister's feelings to be hurt.

He's always _wanted_ to be a musician. That's not the same as being "serious" about it. If you notice, Trent's music has been improving and he's been getting higher and higher-quality gigs all through the series.

He very nearly gave up on his dream in the first season: Daria played a key role in restoring his self-confidence. That's probably when he began to take her seriously.

I don't think there's a hard-and-fast distinction between "schoolgirl crushes" and "serious, mature interests". In my opinion, Daria's feelings were a mixture of both: she idealized Trent too much, but she also responded to his genuine goodness and kindliness.

Both her responses to his good qualities and disillusionments at his bad qualities developed over time, and I could practically chart it for you if I took a list of the episodes in story order and felt obsessive enough. And (real life being unfair), Daria's ability to see and criticize his bad qualities grew faster than Trent's own moral regeneration progressed, so Daria _thinks_ that he's gotten worse when the truth is that he's been getting better. This is very clear if you compare his actions and her reactions, season-by-season.

(This is actually a _more_ sophisticated character development technique than Jane Austen used in _Pride and Prejudice_, by the way).

Trent is less "intellectual" in the sense of bookishness, but I do not know that he's (significantly) less _intelligent_ than Daria.(*) Trent's talents lie in poetry and music, not prose. He's demonstrated in several episodes, especially in the 4th season, a high level of general intelligence, which he usually _chooses_ not to display. Note his superior ability to understand the Daria-Jane-Tom love triangle, and his extremely well-said explanation to Max of why you can't get "below subzero."

Trent probably doesn't bother to try to be intelligent, most of the time, because when you _show_ that you're intelligent, more is expected of you. Trent's most serious character flaws are laziness and unreliability, and it's _easy_ to play dumb. And how much intelligence did he need to function in the "slacker" way of life he was hopelessly mired in when he met Daria, anyway?

That's starting to change.

(*) Based on the evidence from the show, Daria is a true "supergenius", as in "intelligent beyond the ability of IQ tests to adequately measure." She is probably marginally smarter than any other character on the show. But Jane is close to her equal, and Trent is IMO smarter than he usually chooses to look, probably close to Jane's level too.

Yes, but Tom knew what he was doing -- Daria didn't realize what she was doing until she'd done it, and the second time was overwhelmed by her new feelings.

And note -- _Daria_ was the one to back out of that situation. As far as we know, Tom would have gladly kept making out with her at that point. Even though he was the one with more of an obligation not to.

Jane's basic problem is that she's never learned how to relate to someone who isn't extremely self-contained. Like Trent, or Daria.

You may be right. It wasn't good for Jane, either -- she has to learn how to get along with (normal) people better.

I agree with that.

In article ,

someone else,

feelings to be

I'm still not sure I follow this. Unless you mean Trent is deliberately trying to break up Tom and Daria so Daria will come running to him? That sounds a lot crueler than anything Daria or Tom could be remotely accused of doing to Jane.

being "serious"

been getting

a key

to take

I haven't seen a lot of first-season episodes. I think you're talking about "Road Warrior", which I've seen discussed.

crushes"

a mixture

genuine

bad

you if I

And (real

qualities grew

_thinks_ that

BUT - Daria has generally gotten more tolerant of people as the series has progressed! Why would Trent be the exception? Unless her crush was truly blind to Trent's faults?

technique than

Daria! I

not know

talents lie

which he

understand the

to Max of

time,

you.

and it's

function in the

anyway?

true "supergenius", as in

She is

Jane is

to look,

If Daria is only MARGINALLY smarter than anyone else on the show, I can't see her as a supergenius. I think of supergenius as some of the people who taught and ran seminars when I was a Computer Science grad school - if you're familiar with the field, you'll recognize names lile Dijkstra, Hoare and Gries. They're WAY smarter than Daria (or me, though I passed their courses). Daria's an unusually intelligent high- school girl, and I certainly see her going on and being successful as far as graduate school - but "supergenuis" implies world-class elite intelligence to me - and I don't see that in her.

I think Daria's no smarter than Jodie or David. Probably less so than Ted.

I think Jane and Trent are certainly smarter than their academic performance would indicate, but not at Daria's level (or Tom's). Jane was truly overwhelmed by Daria and Tom's political and literary discussions - not just uninformed in those fields. She couldn't match them in that way.

As for Trent, I think any reasonably intelligent sixth-grader could follow the "subzero" logic. And his understanding of the Tom-Jane- Daria triangle was not that complicated - plus a lot of it was a matter of being older and more experienced than three teenagers.

And, of course, part of what I meant was indeed that Trent is not much interested in intellectual subjects. That's a big part of Daria's life. That's why she was so attracted to Ted, who was so weird in other ways. And her attraction to Tom really took root in those long discussions of Machiavelli and Fellini and such.

Jane

was doing

feelings.

as we

Even though

NO NO NO NO NO.

Daria knew what she was doing. I've analyzed this in great detail before, based on slow-motion VCR playback, and posted it in this ng. Daria was NOT taken by surprise, and co-operated in the FIRST kiss, although she didn't embrace Tom until the second one.

(In fact, ironically, I think it may have been more spontaneous on Tom's part than Daria's. He was ready to have the same conversation by phone when Daria called him, looking for Jane (who had been absent from school). Daria cut him off. He wasn't going to kiss Daria THEN, obviously. And he was, in the car, just picking up that interrupted conversation.)

Later, talking to her mother, she refers to Tom as "the guy I PICKED to kiss".

Even later, she semi-admits this to Jane. Jane asks her why she got into Tom's car. Daria first says "I thought we were going to talk about you (Jane)" but then adds "at least, I THINK that's what I thought".

But the truth is that when Tom asked Daria to get into his car, she asked "To talk about Jane?". Tom replied "Nope. About us." THEN she got into the car.

As for Tom, I think he not only knew he and Jane were through, he thought Jane thought so too. The last "conversation" they had was a one-way screaming tirade by Jane. Tom appeared truly surprised when Jane showed up later screaming at him for kissing Daria - and very understanding in the swingset scene. Too bad they didn't have conversations like that before their breakup - it might all have been different. It had been a long time since Tom had had any real indication that Jane cared that much.

Granted, it would have been better for Tom to formally break up - assuming he could get Jane to stop screaming long enough - but I don't think Tom really thought he was betraying Jane by this time.

someone who

But DOES she relate well to them? Or do they just put with her (very) bad side and enjoy her (very) good side? Which Tom, eventually, refused to do.

I thought it was significant that, in "Mart of Darkness", Trent doesn't appear at all angry with Tom when Tom shows up at the Lane house looking for Jane after the Gummi Bear incident. Trent comments on the volume of their (or her) screaming, but that's all. Why is he not angry at Tom for upsetting his sister? - because he knew it was just Jane being irrational again.

I just thought of something about this scene - Tom at the doorstep, with a hangdog expression, looking for Jane. Tom remains at the doorstep the whole scene. Is this some sort of subtle symbolism by the writers - Tom as Jane's doormat? I know, it's a stretch.

(b) a

Jane,

how to

(Trotsky)

You're partly correct in this. I definitely think Tom's kiss was impulsive. I've seen some of the episodes with him, and I think he tends to be on the impulsive side.

However, Daria DIDN'T ask Tom if he wanted to talk about Jane until AFTER she got into the car. As for why she got into the car, there were probably three reasons -- 1. she didn't want to face the Fashion Club (they were doing their Blush-a-thon), 2. she believed Tom wanted to talk about Jane (or at least she told herself he wanted to do so), 3. Daria liked Tom.

I take it that by "one-way screaming tirade", you were referring to the phone conversation Tom mentioned. He never mentioned just WHAT those freaky accusations were, but even I could guess. And Tom definitely knew it was over between him and Jane -- hey, he even said so during the swingset scene.

I agree -- it would've been better for Tom to formally break up, but I assume he didn't want to hurt Jane by suggesting they break up. Both Tom and Daria have families who at least try to care for them -- Jane has only Trent, and probably Jane's terrified of being alone. That probably explains why she gives way to paranoia when Tom indicates that he's becoming interested in Daria. And since Tom has witnessed her paranoia, I sure can see why he'd be unwilling to suggest breaking up with her. That doesn't mean that he wasn't wrong in this situation -- just that he made a mistake. A very BIG one.

Speaking of the phone conversation, that reminds me -- I'm making it official here. I'm going to be writing my very first Daria fanfic. It's entitled "Inner Demons", and takes place in the context of "Dye! Dye! My Darling!". It deals with the immediate aftermath of that rather infamous Kiss, from the points of view of Daria and Tom. And when Tom's thinking about how the whole situation developed, I decided to add the phone conversation -- albeit it's only my interpretation of it, as Tom never told us just WHAT was said. However, you'll all have to wait until December, as I'm not writing it until then.

Belle Book

In article ,

she

far

by

from

to

she

impulsive.

on the

AFTER she

probably three

doing their

least she

the phone

was over

scene.

I got the impression from the way Tom described the phone conversation that Jane wasn't completely coherent.

don't

I assume

and Daria

Trent, and

she gives

Daria. And

unwilling to

in this

Plus the fact that Tom just doesn't like unpleasantness of any sort. Look at the lengths he went to to "make nice" with Daria in "Jane's Addition".

I've wondered just how much of a difference it would have made if Tom had broken up with Jane first.

Jane still would have suspected Tom and Daria of carrying on a clandestine relationship behind her back.

That issue may not be over. Remember the "couples" picture Ted took of Daria and Tom during "I Loathe a Parade"? Wait till Jane gets her senior yearbook!

official

entitled

Darling!". It

the

the whole

albeit it's

said.

it until

You're right. Jane wasn't completely coherent -- Tom did say that when Jane called him the night before, she yelled stuff Tom couldn't understand. That definitely indicates a lack of coherence due to Daria's accidentally messing up Jane's hair, and Jane's paranoia about Tom's relationship with Daria.

You've got a point. Tom doesn't seem to like unpleasantness. Not only does he try to be nice to Daria in "Jane's Addition", at the end of "Is It Fall Yet?", he drives up toward Jane and Daria, and once he takes Daria to her house, he does try to mend the (temporarily) broken fences between them, with a good success rate.

And you may have a point in wondering if breaking up with Jane would've made much of a difference, since Jane would still have suspected Tom and Daria had carried a clandestine relationship behind her back, even though they didn't. However, if Tom had broken up with Jane BEFORE showing any interest in Daria that Jane would've noticed (let alone kissing Daria), Tom wouldn't have dragged Daria into the mess, as he himself hinted when he told Jane, "We should've just broken up, and I never should've dragged Daria into this."

Oh boy. Ted's innocent "couples" picture might cause some ruffled feelings -- unless Jane's gotten over the hurt enough that she can accept that Daria and Tom weren't doing anything besides having a good laugh.

Belle Book

I'm looking forward to reading it. I've been speculating about Daria's state of mind for about the first hour after that kiss -- something along the lines of emotional self examination along with barely-acknowledged sexual excitement, and the Fashon Club's get-together in the background just to make it REALLY interesting -- but I'm not sure if I'd stack up as much of a fan fiction writer. At least not in this company.

Pierce

Profile: Physically unremarkable

In article ,

Darling!".

from the

the whole

Daria's state

the lines

excitement,

REALLY

fiction

Well, you've got a good idea to start with.

Pierces888 said:

state

it REALLY interesting --

The Fashion Club babbling about blush in the background must have been the ultimate icing on the cake, as Daria was lying there torn between guilt and arousal. Though from her attitude the next morning, I think she was pretty much tuning them out along with the rest of external reality.

In article ,

With all that had gone on over the last few days, and the fact of how her first kiss must have felt, I'd have to agree that she was living in a haze, at least until the next morning.

A.J.

In article ,

Darling!".

the

the whole

Daria's state

the lines

excitement,

REALLY

fiction

Hey, you never know. When I posted "The Shadow Over Lawndale", I only wanted to see how harsh the criticism would be. Instead I got e-mails saying "Can I post it on my website?" and "Can I publish it in my fanzine?" Of course, the requests came from the Cthulhu crowd. But don't assume it'll be crap, like I did.

Michael Sears said:

I liked your story too. Of course, I'm a hybrid ... *heh-heh-heh* ... in that I'm both a _Daria_ fan and a long-time Cthulhu Mythos fan :)

M Man said:

No, he's not trying to do that. In fact, he's behaved selflessly throughout the whole affair, giving Jane _and_ Daria the best advice that he could, even when it was in his interests not to. The "Betrayal" bit was simply proof that he's human -- that was Trent's way of harmlessly venting his negative feelings about the whole situation.

This is beautiful characterization -- had Trent _not_ done something like this he would have come off as a plaster saint.

That in particular. In "Road Worrier", Trent was (both literally and symbolically) unable to reach his goal (literally Alternapalooza, more symbolically the world of music that the festival represented). He realized how ridiculous his situation was, and had a crisis of confidence. Daria restored his faith in himself.

That's when he started to truly care about her, at least as a friend, and possibly more.

She had more at stake in her good opinion of Trent than in her good opinion of anyone save Jane. Her negative opinion of Trent was building up over a long time, but she was denying his faults to herself, or making a joke out of them.

In "Lane Miserables" and "Jane's Addition" they exploded, and Daria wound up rejecting Trent. The irony is that it was in precisely those two episodes that Trent came to the moral realization that he needed to reform his ways if he was to succeed. He realized in the first one that he _liked_ discipline and that Monique was no good for him; in the second one that even those he cared for (Daria and Jane) couldn't respect him if he remained unreliable.

Trent, in short, was doing exactly what Daria would have wanted him to, only she didn't notice because she'd decided to reject him and hence was no longer following his every move with interest.

The term refers to an IQ of 150+. Which Daria clearly has -- I've known people around that level of intelligence, and Daria reminds me of some of them. Her strongest aptitudes (intelligence isnt unitary) lie in verbal and written communications skills: she's a writer and a charismatic leader (the latter somewhat concealed by her deliberate aversion to take the role of "leader"). Note that even her secondary aptitudes are high enough to give her straight A's, in every genuinely academic pursuit, including (presumably) art and music.

Jane is similarly intelligent, but her strong aptitudes are visual and manual artistic. She's definitely above average in verbal aptitude as well. Her art is good enough that she routinely wins contests and gets commissions to do work, and she isn't even a high school graduate yet. Note that she was the youngest person invited to that art camp, and had more genuine love for and skill in art than anyone there, even the instructor. This should tell you something. Jane's low grades are because she doesnt _care_ about her schoolwork, pure and simple.

Jodie is either valedictorian or salutorian (forget which). Her aptitudes are social, and she _is_ the charismatic leader Daria could be if she wanted to be. Jodie's secondary aptitudes must be high or she couldn't get the straight A's needed for her academic status. Note that Jodie was invited, along with Daria, to that elite school. Jodie also has no trouble understanding Daria, though Jane's on too weird a wavelength for her to fathom.

She has no background knowledge in those fields, and little interest in acquiring them. "I just want to make beautiful things", to quote her self-description. She's as pure an Artist as you're likely to find in an impure world.

If explained to them by somebody else. Trent not only understood it, but explained it in the most inclusively logical fashion possible (by using set theory). Furthermore, he understood it instantly and intuitively -- he saw what was wrong with Max's lyrics the moment they wee presented to him. And math isn't his field.

Trent is a classic "underachiever".

He's only 21-22. He's not what I'd call particularly "old" or "experienced", save by comparison with Daria or Jane.

Yes, that part of it is most definitely true.

who

Both, I think.

In article ,

throughout the

even when

that he's

feelings about

But I'm still confused as to why this indicates a continuing interest in Daria.

I saw the "Betrayal" song about the way you describe it above. As much as Trent understands Daria and Tom's side of the issue, he's had to live in the same house with Jane through all of this - undoubtably hearing her screaming fits, crying jags, days when she wouldn't get out of bed, the whole works. So he dumped on Daria.

like this

talking

realized how

restored

and

series

opinion of

a long

of them.

Symptoms of a crush. I've had them too :-)

wound up

episodes that

if he was

and that

cared for

to, only

no longer

I'm not at all sure that Trent's that seriously interested in Daria romantically. The only overt sign I can recall is musing out loud that he wished Daria were older. That's a little thin.

the

lile

high-

known people

them. Her

written

latter

of "leader").

straight

and music.

I don't think A's in high school take much more than slightly above- average intelligence. I think Daria's secondary pursuits (mostly reading) are a better indication.

She may have unrealized potential, probably does. But I think you've idealized her a bit. 150+ is a stretch, though possible. She learns super-fast, and reasons well. But she's not done much creatively that I can see - nothing compared to Jane's art.

and manual

Her art is

do work,

youngest

skill in art

something. Jane's

and simple.

I could see Jane (and POSSIBLY Trent) getting A's, but she'd have to work at it, while Daria scarcely has to try.

I think of Jane as almost (not quite, due to the verbal facility you mention) an "idiot savant" in the field of art. She can be so maddening illogical about anything else. Intelligence may not be unitary, but people characterized as "intelligent" usually have some breadth to their intelligence. Jane and Trent have very little.

aptitudes are

wanted to be.

straight A's

with Daria,

though

And maybe too weird for Tom to fathom too.

Jane

match

in

But shouldn't she be interested in things that interest her boyfriend and best friend? That's part of relationships - getting interested in new things, sometimes just to find out what makes the other person tick.

I can't remember the exact quote, but I remember her complaining to Jodie that Tom and Daria were having conversations she thought were over her head.

an impure

but

using set

he saw what

math

To an extent. And the "subzero" thing was strangely out-of-character for Trent. Its illogic actually makes it good as offbeat lyrics, so he should have let it go for that reason. But I still don't see it as making Trent anywhere close to Daria's intelligence, which you say is 150+ IQ (which I agree COULD be true, but she's not shown that much capacity for original thinking, although she soaks up book-learning like a sponge. She hasn't shown herself to be in the Dijkstra-Hoare- Gries class I mentioned above. And those people were obvious genuises as teens. With apologies to Lloyd Bentsen: I knew Edsger Dijkstra, and Daria's no Edsger Dijkstra.)

matter

or "experienced",

Really? *I* knew a *lot* more about romantic relationships at 22 than 17. And my observation was that a *lot* of other people did too. Unless you start pretty early (or pretty late), a lot happens in those years.

much

someone

(very)

I almost see a parallel between Jane Lane and Bobby Knight. For those not interested in sports, or at least USA sports, Bobby Knight is a very successful college basketball coach recently fired after a long chain of public outbursts of rage. People put up with Knight for decades because he won a lot of games and had some other good qualities - loyalty, requiring players to stay up with their academics (which so many college football and basketball coaches don't), etc. But the temper outbursts just got worse and worse because everyone let him get away with them. Had some athletic director or college president cracked down on him 30 years ago, he'd probably still be Indiana's coach, and a relatively calm person.

Jane's gotten away with a lot, and Tom's the first person she's lost because of it.

While I *sometimes* like Jane as a character, I don't think I'd like her much if I knew her in real life. I'd put up with her if I were Daria's boyfriend, and that's about it.

(Trotsky)

M Man writes:

I saw it as just typically scatter-brained of Trent. One thought process was sympathizing with Daria, trying to make her feel better, while another thought process was cooking up a song, and the unspoken thoughts from the former got mixed into the latter. I guess I didn't think it was necessarily intentional.

He's male, and she's an attractive female, who's shown an interest in him. Trust me, that's at least 90% of the equation. :-)

I'd agree, especially since we're talking about a typical sports- and activity-obsessed U.S. public school. Any Lawndale student of average intelligence could get straight A's, if he simply decided to do so.

I see Daria in the 150-160 range, since that's where I tested (years ago before beer), and she mirrors my own intellect pretty closely. I'd hardly consider that super-genius level. If it were, I'd have to expect much more of myself. :-)

True. Jane would have to try to learn, while Daria's main trouble in the classroom is probably staying awake.

And we've seen in _Run, Jane, Run_ that Jane, like most of the really talented artists I've known, has a tough time with math. In the end, she knows she can pass the math test if she tries, but she has no aptitude or interest in it. I think she could probably get an A in math if she wanted to badly enough (just acting interested is worth a point with many teachers), but she probably doesn't figure any art college is going to care too much about her math grades.

To me this seemed a little weird and maybe even out-of-character for Jane. After all, she went to a sub-titled foreign film with Daria, apparently willingly. Yet with Tom she snubs her nose at that sort of thing and just wants to go to a slasher film. It seems like once Tom was around, Jane's interests became narrower, and she was less willing to extend them.

That all makes me think that maybe Jane wasn't that attached to Tom all along, but like many people in that situation, was attached to the 'relationship' itself.

I guess it depends on what kinds of intelligence we're talking about. On a standard IQ test, Trent might not do very well. But he has a talent for music, and he's perceptive about people when he's not distracted by his art. He's smarter than he lets on, but like Jane, he's just not interested in much except his art.

Aaron

In article ,

Oh, I thought it was intentional. He's not THAT scatter-brained. He did specifically ask Daria, in "Fire!", to stop "playing dumb" about her and Tom. I think this was his payback for her not heeding that request.

But why not do something about it? Until DDMD-IIFY, Daria's been available. I think he honestly thinks (or thought) she's just too young for him, that her crush on him was "cute".

It's interesting to me that Jane keeps going to high school. She's old enough to drop out; her parents aren't even around; does Trent encourage her? Yet, in DDMD, we saw that even missing one day was enough to get Daria to start calling around to see if she was OK.

Maybe she just wants the degree to get into art school. But I'd think she'd miss more days if she's not really interested in doing well.

I thought Jane's comment to Jodie about how she and Tom had a perfect relationship was absolutely strange: she said that they watch TV and make fun of the shows. The end.

Is that what Jordan Bassior meant by Jane being too weird for Jodie to understand? It's too weird for anyone to understand. Jodie gave her the only logical response: "You're kidding, right?" Jane didn't answer. She wasn't kidding; yet she can't understand why she's losing Tom.

M Man writes:

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I see your point. One the one hand, he's telling her it's not all her fault; but on the other hand, he doesn't want her feeling totally guiltless about it. That's more plausible.

He's already dating Monique on and off. He figures she's too young and innocent for him. He figures she's too smart to be interested in him beyond a crush. He's lazy and doesn't want to go to that much trouble. Lots of possible reasons.

Probably mainly the 'too young' thing. When I was about 22, I nearly dated an 18-year old who still lived with her parents. Having already lived on my own for a few years, it would have been pretty weird to start thinking about curfews and such again. There's not a huge age difference between Trent and Daria, but there's a huge difference in their lifestyles; so even if he were aware of her crush, he probably still wouldn't see her as truly available.

That's surely the main reason. There's also the fact that Jane likes to observe people, and probably wouldn't want to spend *all* her time at home painting. It's usually Jane who drags Daria out to public events. After all, she sat through self-esteem class several times rather than just go home right after school. I think she'd miss school, with all its spectator-ready stupidity.

Apparently that's all she really wanted from him -- a light, casual friendship with some making out -- and was comfortable with that, so she didn't realize he might not be.

Aaron

In article ,

So why the big explosion in DDMD? With a big buildup in "Fire!"?

It doesn't make sense.

But you're right in a way. She OUTWARDLY TREATED the relationship as pretty casual and light.

M Man writes:

I think what's a 'light, casual' relationship to most people *was* serious to Jane. That seemed to be what she was telling Jodie, that basically all she expected a serious relationship to be was a friendship like hers and Daria's, with kissing.

I also think she was more attached to the idea of a relationship than to Tom specifically. That happens IRL all the time: partner A is sick of partner B's guts, but just can't let go of the 'relationship.' Fear of loneliness, social embarrassment, and a desire to avoid the inevitable confrontation, all conspire to make people fight angrily for relationships they don't really want that much.

Aaron

Aaron Baugher said:

Well, I believe at first Jane really WAS serious about her relationship with Tom -- or at least thought she was. However, once the initial excitement wore off, things went downhill between the two of them, as Tom (and maybe Jane, deep down inside) began to realize that they had little in common -- and maybe Jane realized that she was more interested in the IDEA of a relationship than in Tom, if your theory is correct. But Jane may have wanted to avoid the inevitable, and I did say in an earlier post that Jane may have been scared of being alone. So she stayed in the relationship -- and THEN she realized that Tom was taking more than a casual interest in Daria. Realizing she was losing Tom, Jane became very jealous and paranoid, not realizing that she was driving Tom even further away (though she probably realized that she was making Daria very uncomfortable). A messy situation all the way around.

Belle Book

In article ,

I totally agree.

I think so as well, considering she's only had 2 serious relationships, with Trent as a brother, and Daria as a friend, two strong ones at that, she doesn't want to go back to her pre Daria days, where she was basically the only outcast, she was by herself, it hurt her then and would hurt her even more now, so she tried to make it work, forcing what wasn't there to begin with. Basically it was you take what you can get even if it's not exactly what's best.

A.J.

Cheese300 said:

And unfortunately causing real heartache for Jane, Tom, AND Daria. The heartache for Daria occurred because she was caught in the middle -- she was Jane's best friend, but was falling for Tom -- and Tom for her.

Belle Book

In article ,

relationships, with

she

basically the

her even

begin

exactly

The

she was

None of which would have happened if all three weren't aware - to some degree - that the Jane/Tom relationship had long since run its course.

I had almost forgotten just how impulsive was the start of the Jane-Tom relationship. Some eye-flirting across a room - some repartee - into Tom's car and - boom! - they're "a couple". Not surprising that they turned out to be less well-matched than they hoped.

M Man said:

"Impulsiveness" is definitely one of Jane's character flaws, as was shown in #102. Jane also tends to fling herself completely into whatever impulse she has; she's not cautious at all, emotionally.

Jordan S. Bassior said:

Jane does sound impulsive, but I also thought Tom was on the impulsive side as well, though maybe I'm wrong on that. Certainly, however, the beginning of their relationship was so impulsive, it may not have been too big of a surprise to discover it didn't work, though it was sad, too.

Belle Book

In article ,

Tom

into

they

shown in

impulse she

impulsive side as

beginning of

a surprise

I don't think Tom's as CONSISTENTLY as impulsive as Jane. In this instance, though, he was every bit as impulsive.

M Man said:

And when he kissed Daria in "Dye! Dye! My Darling!", he definitely WAS impulsive! His actions definitely surprised me in that episode -- at least in part because it happened so quickly (one moment, Daria tells him that she'd be stabbing her best friend in the back if she even considered being interested in him, whereupon Tom says, "Exactly. And what kind of a guy would that make me?", and it seems that nothing's going to happen; the next moment Tom's kissing Daria)!

Belle Book

In article ,

Jane-

was

of

least in

she'd be

interested in

make

Tom's

Well, yes, I think Tom was impulsive there. But I wouldn't put too much stock in his "what kind of guy would that make me?" line. Tom frequently uses self-deprecation as a disarming and de-fusing tactic.

M Man said:

You may have a good point. Self-deprecation does seem to be one of Tom's better tactics.

Belle Book

Belle Book said:

I don't actually think he was being impulsive -- I think that from his POV he met an interesting girl in a club, took her for a burger and talked to her, and afterwards started going out with her, initially on a mostly-friendly basis, afterwards as a casual sort of affair. I don't think that Jane ever meant as much to Tom as Tom did to Jane.

I agree.

In article ,

impulsive side as

his POV he

to her, and

basis,

meant as

But Tom made a big point of smoothing things over with Daria when she was nasty to him in the beginning, explaining to Daria how much he wanted things to work out with Jane. That sounds like he intended it to be something much more than casual, though I DO think he considered it as more of a trial relationship with potential than as a done deal, which Jane apparently did.

a

(Trotsky)

Jordan S. Bassior said:

I think initially Jane meant more to Tom than you give him credit for. When he tried to smooth things over with Daria, he indicated that her antagonism towards him was making things difficult in his relationship with Jane. That definitely indicates that he wanted this relationship to work out, though it doesn't mean that he saw it as a done deal. He may have seen it as more of a trial relationship with a great deal of promise, as M. Man said in his reply to this post (which I read).

Belle Book

Aaron Baugher said:

"Off" now.

This, aside from the "young" part, amounts to "she's too good for me." I'd add "hardworking" and "probably going to be successful and even popular in her future" to that list.

Depends how much he cares.

Her reaction to losing him was too extreme for this to be "all she really wanted." I think that Jane didn't realize that what she was doing with him _wasn't_ "deep love."

M Man said:

Jane has a practical side, and enough common sense to realize that dropping out of high school would be a Bad Idea. Trent probably does encourage her too -- he cares a lot about her. And meeting Daria also probably helped her stay in school -- Daria helps her directly in her studies, and Jane knows that Daria would think less of her if she dropped out.

Part of it. Jane is an introvert: most of her life consists of doing art and watching TV. Probably, most of her experience with "companionship" has involved doing this while Trent hung out with her; she then did this with Daria; it's not surprising that she would have the same expectations of her relationship with Tom.

Of course, much of Jodie's relationship with Mack consists of studying with him, if you remember the notes they were passing. The difference is that Jodie and Mack are true soulmates -- obviously childhood sweethearts.

Trent and Daria had been perfectly happy to deal with Jane on this level.

In article ,

old

think

dropping out

too -- he

stay in

that Daria

to

art and

Not a good way for an artist to be. Art has to be ABOUT something; it has subject matter. Artists have to know about something other than art itself (probably not about TV either).

Daria; it's

relationship

studying with

that Jodie

level.

(Trotsky)

M Man said:

Well, Jane does _observe_ the world around her, a lot. She just doesn't participate much.

Aaron Baugher said:

I think 150+ is the traditional "supergenuis" level, though I could be wrong. She's definitely "genius" level intelligence.

Maybe this was a reaction on her part against a perceived threat from his superior social status and aptitude, a fear of being swallowed up in him. If so, it was a foolish strategy on her part.

I'll also point out that people like Jane and Trent contribute tremendously to our civilization, despite their lack of academic skills.

M Man said:

There is also his behavior in "Pierce Me" and the disguised conversation they had at the end of "Jane's Additon".

Daria writes. We've presumably only seen a small fraction of her output. And she's only 17, and writing is a skill that takes time to develop.

Jane and Trent don't have the same kind of intelligence as Daria's -- Daria's is oriented around formal reasoning and communication skills. Daria's kind of intelligence translates better into good grades; Jane and Trent's into creativity.

Jane demonstrates both very high spatial and high verbal skills; her limitations are in purely _social_ skills. Trent has serious musical aptitude, and enough writing skills to do his own lyrics; he's also more socially skilled than Jane. Note that Trent also remembered enough math to quickly and intuitively realize what was wrong with the "below sub-zero" line.

Quite probably, in the end. What was amusing on first meeting was less amusing when he realized that Jane wasn't merely kidding.

Social aptitude is required to realize this, though. Daria is apparently Jane's first good friend, and Tom was Jane's first boyfriend. How was Jane expected to know what to do?

They were. Of course, much of Jane's art went over Tom's head, and some may go over Daria's as well.

Trent's character is developing: he's more willing to expend the effort to think and take the risk of displaying his intelligence. This is partially due to Daria's good example.

She doesn't simply accept whatever she's told. She inelligently forms her personal philosophy, and applies it. She's not a mere "sponge", if she was she'd mindlessly follow people.

I never said that she was. "Supergenius" refers conceptually to people whose intelligence goes beyond the capability of our scales to accurately measure -- especially because intelligence is a constellation of aptitudes rather a unitary value, there is a lot of variation possible within this class, both in terms of type and level of intelligence.

Trent's not very romantically aggressive -- based on the evidence, he's mostly had an on-and-off relationship with Monique during these years.

We have no idea how many friends she _could_ have had if she was less insistent on doing everything her way.

I see Jane as a very good person, and I'll put up with a lot of crap if someone's decent underneath. I'd rather know someone prickly but nice than someone smooth but nasty.

In article ,

that

conversation they

"Pierce Me" was, I thought, an example of Trent seeing Daria's crush as "cute", but not seeing her seriously as a romantic partner. Remember, Daria is a contemporary of Trent's "baby sister". I don't think Trent COMPLETELY discarded that image of Jane until "Fire!" and DDMD.

that

output. And

Daria's

kind of

aptitude,

socially skilled

Well, all reasoning CAN be rescribed in terms of set theory. Trent didn't explicitly do so; he used the word "set" and someone else - I think it was Max, of all people - said "isn't that like algebra or something?"

I could make a case, from an incident like this, that Tiffany is a brilliant reasoner: in "Daria!", her reaction to the coming hurricane is "Oh No. Wind. Hair." That's a highly condensed form for the following argument:

1. "Wind" - Hurricanes bring high wind. So Tiffany understands a meteorilogical phenomenon that does't happen every day; probably it's the first she's been in personally.

2. "Hair" - Wind can mess up your hair. Some understanding of physics.

3. "Oh No" - Messed-up hair is Not Cool for a Fashion-Clubber; I want to remain a Cool Fashion-Clubber; therefore I must seek shelter from the wind.

Pretty complex if you drew out a FULL logical diagram, including implicit premises I didn't mention. Yet Tiffany is well below average intelligence - her reasoning above just proves she's human enough to be above the level of a turnip or an amoeba - it's not so hard to do, just a bit hard to formally analyze after the fact.

Of course, Tiffany's also proving in this instance that she's still really stupid - worried about her hair and not about the fact that the hurricane could destroy her home, injure her, even kill her. She can, if she survives, comb her damn hair if it gets messed.

Nevertheless, Tiffany (implicitly) strung together an impressive chain of syllogisms to reason that a hurricane might threaten her image and standing as a Fashion Club member. That's more complex than the "sub- zero" argument, which is 95% solved if one realizes, explicitly or implicitly, that "sub" means "below". But if we start considering people like Tiffany as brilliant, Lawndale becomes Lake Wobegon on steroids - not only is everyone above average, they're all near- geniuses, geniuses, near-super-geniuses, or super-geniuses. That's not the Lawndale I know.

By the way, in the "sub-zero" case, Trent's missing the big picture as well. "Below subzero", though logically and grammatically incorrect, has a clear *intended* meaning: "extremely cold". The redundancy makes it good as an offbeat lyric. When I saw this scene, it occurred to me that had Trent been a member of the Rolling Stones in the 60s, he might have talked the rest of the band out of "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" on the grounds that that lyric uses a double-negative.

less amusing

in

tick.

apparently Jane's

expected to

Daria's been Jane's friend for years now. And she dated Tom for many months. It might have occurred to her to try reading a book of Daria's or something. Or go see a movie that Tom liked, one that she wouldn't ordinarily see. There has to be a first time.

some may go

But Daria doesn't freak out at things over her head. Her attraction to Ted seemed to be based on the fact that he could outdo her in terms of arcane knowledge - that intrigued her.

Daria certainly tries to understand as much about Jane's art as she can. So did Tom. But Jane wouldn't go watch a damn Fellini movie with Tom. God forbid she might read one of Daria's books.

effort to

partially due

her

she was

No, I didn't mean that. But what does she really do but read. You say writing takes time to develop. But how much does she write - do we see her do it? She plays computer and video games a lot, and hangs out with Jane, and reads. Especially in the age of the Internet, it's awfully easy to post some writing and get it critiqued - anonymously if she prefers. If she's doing anything like that, we're not seeing it. We see Jane's art and Trent's music on the show.

people whose

measure --

rather a

class, both in

those

he's mostly

insistent

Very true! But of course Jane has no idea either. And she's probably not even wondered about it.

if

than

Oh, I could too. If I were Daria's boyfriend, I'd probably get some of her nasty sarcasm directed at me. I just don't see that many redeeming qualities in Jane *as a friend*.

Actually, I've been in that situation; barely able to tolerate my girlfriend's best friend. Luckily my girlfriend was wise enough to see her friend's faults too and understand my position. Unlike Jane, she didn't insist on socializing with her best friend and boyfriend at the same time, which I thought really shortchanged both Daria and Tom.

(Trotsky)

M Man said:

Yes -- but that's a sophisticated obsevation. For Trent to even begin to understand this, he has to be highly intelligent.

Trent did something better than explicitly lecture on set theory -- he _used it in a practical manner_. He showed by doing so that he totally understood the underlying concepts.

This _is_ good reasoning -- for a chimpanzee.

Tiffany suffers because she's being compared to other humans. By the standards of semi-sapient animals, she's a genius.

Trent, on the other hand, reasoned well _by human standards_.

That was the point of the joke -- Tiffany has so internalized the Fashion Club values that, to her, having unmussed hair is a consideration utterly dwarfing any other consideration.

Trent's application of set theory to lyrics writing does not display any equivalent stupidity.

Except that in normal grammar, one is allowed to use double superlatives. Trent was making reference to reality, and showing a lack of tolerance for genuine illogic which is surprising if you think of him as an idiot.

I don't.

There were other problems with the lyric too, Trent just seized on one obvious one.

That's a good point.

That's true. Jane's very self-contained. It's probably helped her stay sane growing up, but she has to come out of that shell eventually. I think she made a start with Daria, and was making another start with Tom.

Daria doesn't feel threatened by superior knowledge. Neither, incidentally, does Trent. Though Jane only displayed this trait in the context of jealousy over Tom and Daria, so maybe she doesn't normally act this way either.

I have to wonder to what extent she has been open to Daria's interests _before_ this. Probably not very -- Daria has superior social skills to Jane's.

I note that Daria has generally been open to Jane's interests. She complains about going places Jane wants, but she generally can be cajoled into doing so.

In article ,

to

he _used it

understood the

While it misses the big picture - that the hurricane could kill her - it's not TOTALLY falacious. She could come stumbling out of the hurricane, hair in a mess, run into Sandi, and be thrown out of the Fashion Club for publicly disgracing it by appearing less than perfect.

standards

the

can,

Fashion Club

dwarfing

any

"Below subzero" means "below below zero". That is not normal grammar. That's what I meant in my 95% comment.

genuine

No, I don't think of Trent as an idiot or Tiffany as as brilliant. Just that Tiffany followed a logical form of argument, even though it was completely out-of-context.

as

makes

one obvious

might

Daria's

wouldn't

stay sane

she made

to

of

incidentally,

jealousy

with

interests _before_

complains

doing so.

(Trotsky)

M Man said:

True. On the other hand, being killed would also mean dismissal from the Fashion Club.

*Sandi-voice*

"_Maggots_ are _tres [address]"

*back to normal*

In article ,

perfect.

the

Someone should have assured Tiffany that the mortician will comb her hair, so she will still be a "hot-looking corpse" and a true Fashion- Clubber even unto death.

(Translator's note: "tres unchic" is French for "sooo gicky!")

(Trotsky)

just a thing about "supergenius". i don't think 150+ is "supergenius" level. einstein was supergenius level. he's right off the scale 250+, so they say. daria is definitely smart, maybe enough to be a genius, but supergenius, i don't think so.

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote in message news:[email]...

they

And

Daria's

of

aptitude,

skilled

amusing

Jane's

expected to

may go

due

whose

measure --

both in

mostly

insistent

(Trotsky)

So I wasn't the only person that caught Trent spouting set theory. :) He's definitely smarter than he lets on and is just playing the flake. Which makes sense. If you let people know you're smart they start expecting things of you and harp on the more stupid goofs you make (and everyone makes them).

And lets not forget, 'eye candy' isn't expected to be shrew with business dealings. For all we know he's getting better-than-could-be-expected gigs by being smarter than he looks and acts. Yeah, the gigs aren't great, but then neither is the band.

Tephra Adularia said:

of

Exactly my point. He doesn't want to have to work that hard.

And the gigs are improving. As is the band.

SANDI: Gee, Steve, it was really sweet of you to start a thread about me. I don't even mind being called a villain. After all, it's what I do best. No, really! I'm not being sarcastic. I just don't understand why your Internet geek friends can't stay on the same page. One minute, everyone's talking about me, an interesting and important person. The next minute, everybody's ranting about those geeks in Mystik Spiral. I mean, come on! Grunge rock in the New Milleniium? That is so 1991. Why can't they play like the Greene Street Boys or Ben Sink?

Steve Cross (Sandy's uncle in an alternate universe)

I can see a few outcomes to the Daria/Tom thing.

One is that Tom gets bored with her as he did with Jane and moves on. That may take a while, a few years perhaps.

Another is that Daria gets seriously annoyed with Tom's tendency to make decisions for her and gives him the boot as a love interest.

The third is perhaps merely a facet of the second, Daria gets highly irritated with Tom's patronizing and condescending attitude with her. Okay, she hasn't officially dated, but constantly throwing that up in her face as an excuse for his controlling tendencies will get really old really fast.

But then maybe I'm putting too much of myself and my history/attitudes into the situation. It DOES have strong echoes to my life after all.

Of course there's the off chance that it actually lasts and gets really serious, but as a Daria/Trent 'shipper I don't like that idea. ;>

wrote:

It would be interesting to see if they actually pair Andrea and Jane together. I could definately imagine decent storylines from that.

Which is what I've been hoping for for four seasons now.

I agree. With Daria dating Tom, I see her and Jodie more or less travelling in the same circles since Jodie's rich as well. Also I have the feeling that Tom's influence will have Daria opening up a little (not much, but a little) and this might permit her to let Jodie in a little more.

Jeff M.

In article ,

Then you'd better round them up for a fanfic or something, I just don't see anything at all happening in the actual series, Andrea never seemed more than a cameo character for Susie Lewis Lynn, sort of how Hitchcock always made a minor screen appearance in his movies, since she is a cult favorite of many fans, they'll keep throwing a bone out for all the fans, and give her a line once in a while. I mean she's spoken all of 93 words in 4 seasons, and 46 of them came in "Mart Of Darkness" She'll probably make her 1 or 2 appearances next year, say 2 or 3 lines and that'll be all. For those of you who like her I have no problem with that, I never have been a fan of hers, though, I just don't see her having a major impact, or even a minor one, in the series at all, you'll always have fanfic, though.

Then again, I'll probably have to eat crow after an episode which focuses entirely on her, who knows? :-)

This is something I wouldn't mind at all.

Especially if there are any rifts remaining from the Daria/Tom thing. Things will never be 100% of what they were before, and Daria will need someone else, someone whom she can consider a friend and someone with whom she can have a possible heart to heart with outside of her family, She and Jodie have had one talk already, "Gifted", so I can see her hitting it off with Jodie as well. They won't ever be as close as Daria and Jane were, but they'll still be good acquaintances if not friends.

A.J.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 06:24:47 GMT, [email] wrote:

I don't know. Daria and Jodie is as unlikely as Daria and Stacy. Jodie's focus in life is pleasing people: her parents, the school, her fellow students. Daria deliberately antagonizes school leaders and doesn't really care about pleasing her parents as much as getting a bribe out of them. Daria tries to please her friends, but doesn't care how the rest of her peers react to her. Their basic philosophies differ greatly. Daria may respect some things about Jodie and be friendly with her, but always see her as a sell-out, someone with vastly different priorities.

Dagny

http://www.fireflycafe.org

Is building the site in PhotoShop, cutting it up, and wrapping the pieces in HTML, and telling visitors upgrade or die the way to build websites? Or simply the way to win awards? (Alan Herrell)

Dagny said:

We saw some of this philosophical conflict in "Partner's Complaint". On the other hand, we also saw that in the end, each girl went out of her way to be nice to the other. Neither was willing to attack the other in front of the class.

I think that Jodie envies Daria her intellectual freedom (note that Jodie can be just as sarcastic, to people she really trusts, as Daria is in public), while Daria envies Jodie her ability to move smoothly through society. I think that both girls deeply respect the other's intelligence.

wrote:

I think that's a little harsh. Keep in mind that Jodie has a whole different set of pressures to deal with: family expectations and the expectations she places on herself. We see that she's not happy with this, she's sarcastic about it which is why she gravitates to Daria. The question is will Daria's influence rub off on her a little more?

I do think they respect each other. Of course there'll be disagreements.

What I'd like to see is a deepening of the friendship. That could possibly happen now that they're getting older. It won't be like Daria and Jane of course, but it could be an interesting relationship.

Jeff M.

JMorris said:

And of course Jodie _has_ to yield somewhat to family expectations -- she's a minor and pretty much at their mercy. Daria may complain about her mom but at the core Helen respects Daria and who she is more than Michelle does Jodie. Or maybe Helen simply understands Daria better: Jode's parents don't seem to pay very much attention to her save as someone to be vicariously proud of (because Jodie's a "good girl", and a high achiever).

If the show lasts I foresee a confrontation between Jodie and her parents, over their inflated expectations for her.

I think so too. Plus, I think that Daria may be ready to have more than one or two friends in her life.

wrote:

We don't know all that much about Jodie's home life, save for the taste we got in The F-Word. I wonder though about Michelle. She didn't seem all too happy to be at that convention in Of Human Bonding,and she got along well with Daria. Maybe she's got some doubts about the choices she's made for Jodie and herself.

Be careful with that "if" there, J. Also I wouldn't be surprised if we got a confrontation sooner than later. Who expected Daria to be dating about now?

Agreed. Personally that section of the montage at the end of IIFY where Daria and Jodie are in a band together is something I'd like to see. Or them doing more together.

Jeff M.

JMorris said:

herself.

I actually have a good opinion of the Landon parents: they have pushed Jodie too hard but it's for understandable reasons -- Andrew has succeeded by dint of fierce effort and never making excuses for himself, and Michelle knows how easy it is for a woman to be pushed into second place. They want Jodie to succeed for her own sake as well -- they don't realize that they are pushing her in ways which could destroy her if they aren't careful.

Well -- it did happen at the end of the 4th season -- that's 2 years, show time.

I think Jodie is a potentially very cool character and I would like to see more of her.

Jordan S. Bassior says:

Andrew Landon in particular reminds me of Mr. Perry in the film "Dead Poet's Society" -- a father who wants his child to succeed so he/she won't have to face the same struggles as the father did in succeeding, but who in their concern for their children, fail to realize that their children may have other ideas about how to live life or may not be suited for the kind of life the father wants them to lead. Mr Perry's squashing his son's desire to be an actor (despite Neil's obvious talent) ultimately leads to tragedy in the form of Neil's suicide. Hopefully it won't lead to the same kind of fate for Jodie, though I did read one fanfic where Jodie too commits suicide, though in her case, it's not as impulsive as in Neil's case.

Belle Book

In article ,

True, but I think she'd admire her ability to get through social situations at the same time, she may not see her as a total sellout, Daria knows Jodie doesn't want to do all of this extra-curricular work and it's done at the parents demands, so as I say, they'll have their ideological differences (see Partner's Complaint) but I do think they can be friends, not as close as Daria and Jane, but friends nonetheless. I'm still waiting for the episode that Jodie tells off her parents, and tells them to stick it where the sun don't shine, and along with the FC breakup as well, neither of which you'll see until the final few eps of the final season of the show, but I can wait:-)

This was a rushed attempt to respond to all posts on 10/26 with a single message, if it doesn't make sense, sorry it's 3a.m. where I'm at, why am I up, damned if I know:-)

A.J.

In article ,

No she won't be all important, but she knew how she felt when Jane was going with Tom, she felt even more lonely than before, having gone through that, Daria will make the effort to be with Jane so her best friend doesn't have to feel the way she once did. Though any remaining hatred over the events of last season may creep in and Jane would voluntarily withdraw from them, but I doubt it.

It definitely could happen, she could just hide away, and never come out except for school, but she seems too outgoing to lock herself away from the world, that's not her.

Still, very interesting possibilities, no matter their likelyhood of happening, it gives us something to think about for the next 4 months 'til we find out what happens next.

A.J.

In article , [email] wrote:

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[email] writes (about Jane):

I'm not so sure about that. Until Daria came along, Jane seemed content to spend her free time in self-esteem classes. Seems like Daria had to talk her into going ahead and passing the test. I can't think of any evidence that pre-Daria Jane wasn't just as much of a loner as pre-Jane Daria.

Aaron

In article ,

True, but ...

The clincher would be Trent going on tour with Mystik Spiral. Jane's NEVER experienced life without Trent.

M Man says:

Well, Jane does know Daria well enough to know that Daria is attractive enough to interest guys -- even if Daria hides what natural beauty she possesses. The guy has to look beyond Daria's "persona", however, and thanks to the events of "I Loathe a Parade", Tom does get the chance to see Daria's attractive qualities. Unfortunately, it also causes problems in Daria's relationship with Jane, when Tom begins to fall for Daria.

While Trent could be attracted to Daria, it could simply indicate that Trent knows Daria well enough to know that a guy could fall for her. As for Daria, I think the reason why she won't believe Tom is falling for her is because that's the LAST thing she wants to face. She definitely likes Tom, but he's her best friend's boyfriend in "Fire" and she's so close to Jane that she doesn't want to hurt Jane (understandably).

I also think that's the reason why Daria refuses to go bowling with Jane and Tom in "Of Human Bonding" when Jane asks. OHB came soon after ILAP, and Daria may well have been attracted to Tom by the end of ILAP. She probably wants to hide from her feelings, so she chooses to avoid Jane and Tom. Ultimately, it just doesn't work, as the events of "Fire!" and DDMD prove.

Belle Book

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Yes, Jane KNOWS this, but ... it seems it would be so tempting for Jane, in her anger, to try to hit Daria at her weakest spot. But she doesn't do it - partly because deep down she really doesn't hate Daria - partly because she knows she'd be lying.

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Partly, Belle, but Daria also refused to go bowling with Tom and Jane because it would be extremely painful for her to be the 3rd person on a date with (a) a guy she's attracted to (Tom); and (b) her best female friend, who is, so far, Tom's girlfriend. I was once the 3rd person (with genders reversed) on a similar outing, and it felt awful.

Steve Cross

Steve says:

I didn't consider that part. I stand corrected.

Belle Book

I don't know, after all he chose Daria over Quinn. Yes, she has access, but she got out competed by her 'cousin.'

In article ,

fact that

access, but

But Quinn never "competed" for Tom.

We're talking the perceptions of the Fashion club here, Sandi in particular. While Stacy probably is totally unfazed (or is gushing over how cute Daria and Tom are together) and Tiffany is either oblivious or trying to figure out if that puts Sandi or Quinn on top, neither are really impacted by it. Sandi however, could twist it to be negative about Quinn (hence the 'losing the competition' remark of mine.) As far as Sandi is concerned Daria is a nonentity on the dating scene and if any Morgendorffer were going to get Tom Sloane it would be Quinn and the fact that it *wasn't* Quinn is a weapon to use against her. The primary assumption of Sandi (and formerly of Quinn) is that no guy would ever choose someone like Daria over herself.

Ah, but the opinion of the GUY has nothing to do with the way the fashion club thinks. Remember 'guys are like handbags' and are an accessory. When faced with a guy that doesn't fall into 'puppy on a leash' mode on seeing them they are completely shocked (refer to Sandi and David in IIFY).

You've got some good points. You should've just made them clearer.

Well, I can definitely imagine Sandi thinking that if any Morgendoffer could win Tom over, it would be Quinn, NOT Daria. Therefore, Sandi would see it as a competition between Daria and Quinn over Tom, with Quinn losing to Daria, never realizing that there WAS no competition, and that Tom would NEVER choose someone like Sandi or Quinn to Jane and Daria.

That sounds exactly like the way the Fashion Club thinks (or at least like Sandi, Quinn, and Tiffany thinks -- I don't know if Stacy REALLY thinks that way, or if she just pretends to think that way out of fear of Sandi)! There was no competition, but Sandi, obsessed with her jealousy of Quinn as she is, would never see that, and the perception of competition does seem to be more important than the reality to her.

I'd love to see Quinn metaphorically thumb her nose at Sandi and being openly friendly to Daria, but perhaps we'll only see such a thing at the end of the series.

Belle Book

I remember that scene! I can hardly blame Tom for wanting to stay as far away from the Fashion Club as possible! No, Tom would NEVER have chosen Quinn -- or anyone else in the Fashion Club -- over Jane and Daria, nor would I ever want him to!

Belle Book

goddamnit, quote.

In article , [email] (Cricket) wrote:

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That's why Sandi can't chide Quinn for being "out-competed" by Daria. Tom's out of Sandi's league and Sandi knows it, and Quinn knows it - and could throw it right back in Sandi's face.

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I think Quinn's quickly getting to the point where she truly doesn't care what Sandi thinks. She's always treated Sandi with a bit of veiled contempt, but the "pedagogue" remark neat the end of IIFY pretty much signals to me that the veil has come off.

Well other than that melee on the float in ILAP and the quick glances they gave Tom in IIFY, we haven't see too much interaction between him in the Fashion Mob. But I imagine we'll be seeing a lot more of it now that he's going to be over at the Morgendorffer household frequently. What comes of that will be interesting to see.

Well, she's growing up. The fact that she acknowledged the compatability between Tom and Daria is a part of that. And this maturity will accelerate her separation from the Fashion Club.

Jeff M.

I agree -- what will come of any future interaction between Tom and the Fashion Club will be interesting to see, at least as far as Sandi's concerned. Tiffany may not really care one way or the other, and Stacy might well just think Tom and Daria look cute together.

You know, David's tutoring seems to have done wonders for Quinn in more ways than one, if the end result is that Quinn is able to acknowledge the compatibility between Tom and Daria more than she might have done if she hadn't been tutored by David.

Belle Book

I don't know if Stacy cares all that much about Daria. Other than being trapped on the Ferris Wheel with Daria and Jane is Fair Enough she hasn't had all that much to do with Daria. Of course if she starts to think Quinn and Tom should be together....

Agreed. Which is why I'm excited by the prospects of the fifth season. If Quinn's maturity sticks-and I have no reason to think she'll go back to being dumb again-we could have some interesting storylines.

Jeff M.

Jeff Morris said:

Daria probably terrifies Stacy -- she's weird and at least as strongwilled as Quinn. Plus she has a reputation for cutting people up verbally -- remember Andrea's fear of Daria and Jane in "Mart of Darkness?" Andrea's nowhere near as insecure as Stacy.

It would be ok if Quinn regressed occasionally -- people do in real life -- but it would be bad writing if the events of the summer had no permanent effects on Quinn.

"Mart of Darkness" is probably another episode I have to see. And yes, if Andrea was scared of Daria, imagine the terror Stacy, who's definitely insecure, must feel.

I think Quinn will probably regress occasionally -- after all, as you said, people do that in real life, and besides, I read a book called "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" (the third book in the Chronicles of Narnia series) where this obnoxious brat, Eustace, encounters Aslan, the noble Lion, and is transformed by his encounter. The narrator said that Eustace began to be a different boy, adding that he had relapses. However, the events of that encounter with Aslan had changed him permanently. So Quinn may well have relapses, but I think the events of the summer will have a permanent effect on her as well.

Belle Book

Now here's an interesting idea for a future episode: Daria as seen through the eyes of other people.

Agreed. As someone here said, Quinn being Quinn is the series' bread and butter,so I don't see them jettisoning that anytime soon.

I think what's going to be interesting to see is how does Quinn deal with her awakening intelligence and what effects do this have on the Fashion Club and her sister. Daria may very well applaud Quinn for this but then again there's always been a tension between the two, and if Quinn's intelligence starts to creep toward Daria-levels, with Daria's new social life........

Jeff M.

In article ,

There's a possible idea for a fanfic there, hmmm......

Absolutely not, to just throw away one of the foundations of the show entirely, would be a terrible idea. The regressions will be there no matter what, at they will be if they're trying to portray her as a human being, and all humans regress occasionally.

I think she either gradually rejects the FC, or she takes control and uses it for more than just showing themselves off and helping others. And that other idea is a fantastic idea for an ep. As Daria and Quinn have been polar opposites since the beginning of the series, seeing them help in each others weak spots, bringing them to be more like the other, now Quinn won't become a full fleged brain, nor will Daria be the social butterfly Quinn is, but getting them on closer grounds would be very interesting, also interesting would be to see if either got jealous oe nervous for the other treading into their area of expertise and succeeding, and you imagine the possible competition between them? Just about 4 months and counting til we find out what's next.....

A.J.

I agree wholeheartedly. They will modify the whole "Quinn being Quinn" thing during the course of the show, but not throw it away.

I agree -- Daria will never be a social butterfly, nor will Quinn be a full-fledged brain -- it's too drastic a change -- but I can see gradual changing, with Quinn becoming a little more like Daria (the question about Manifest Destiny is a good start), and Daria being more comfortable socially (I did hear she learns to lighten up a bit during the fifth season). Either one might get jealous or nervous of the other treading into their area of expertise and succeeding, or either one might actually be helpful to the other one.

Belle Book

What do you agree with? You didn't include the previous post so without backtracking, I cannot tell what you are referring to or who you are replying to.

I have read many of your comments and I often enjoy reading your posts but your style of posting makes it very difficult to decipher what you are referring to. If you are going to reply to someone else's article, please include parts of that other person's article so people know what you are talking about - others have made this request as well - we obviously want to read, without confusion, what you have to say :)

Sara

Sorry about that. I'll do it from now on.

Belle Book

What will be interesting is the inner conflict that should arouse between her growing consciousness and her shallow desires. I really hope they do a good episode on this, not like Groped by an Angel.

Well, Speedtrapped was a good start (I miss ya, Sam and Chris!) and the positive responses to it should get the writers doing more stories in that vein. I would like to see more stories like that since I think Daria and Quinn are better working together than they are at each other's throats.

As we saw in IIFY they appear to be headed in those directions, "closer ground" as it seems.

Yes! Which is why I can't wait for season 5.

Four Months! And they're going fast!

Jeff M.

Assuming of course that Linda learns that Daria is Helen's daughter, that Daria thinks nothing of the petty rivalries going on except for contempt, and the fact that Daria's dating Tom Sloane, the son of the richest family in Lawndale.

I could tell her how Daria managed to "get" Tom -- but she'd probably die of shock to hear the whole story! Because after all, Daria was trying to to act uninterested in Tom in "Fire!" (and perhaps in "I Loathe a Parade", although I still have to see that episode before I can definitely say so). She certainly wasn't trying to "get" Tom. Tom was the one showing obvious interest in Daria, not the other way around. Still, I'd tell Linda the whole details just to see the look on her face!

Belle Book

I'll have to see those two episodes in a Daria Day Marathon.

How will Linda ever learn Daria's Helen's daughter? I doubt she'll learn it from Sandi, since Quinn probably won't tell Sandi. Maybe from Helen. If Helen does tell Linda that Daria's her daughter, that might really get Linda jealous, since Daria is on High Honor Roll (and Quinn might do so as well if she follows her current course), while Sandi will probably graduate from high school but never get to college.

Yes, I'd love to see Linda get hers. Sandi too, although the fact that she's the way she is thanks to her mother's influence does soften my feelings for her a little bit. Not much.

I don't know why three characters have shared the same first name of Tom. But I did see a Tom Borillo as a voice in the show, and the art director is Tom Marsan. Maybe they took the name "Tom" from Marsan, as he's probably more likely to have that name used than the other Tom is. Incidentally, I don't know who's the voice of Tommy Sherman or Tom Griffin, but Russell Hankin is the voice of Tom Sloane.

Belle Book

Finally! The review for "Is It Fall Yet?" is here! This movie (along with "Dye! Dye! My Darling!") was my first exposure to "Daria", and it was the "episode" that really hooked me on "Daria", so I'm glad this friend of mine convinced me to watch the episode.

And yes, I loved the movie. I laughed at some of the situations that came up (mostly those involving Kevin and Brittany, who are definitely comic relief), and was glad that Daria and Jane mended their fences. It's nice to see a teenage female friendship portrayed in a positive way. Doesn't happen too often in comedies, from what I hear (though Daria may be more of a mixture of comedy and drama).

In short, bring on Season 5 -- and more reviews!

Belle Book

"Mike Quinn" wrote in message news:8ra1b5$h2r$[email]...

(snip)

Stop with this self-putdown stuff. You've truly outdone yourself with this one. Kudos! I'm sorry I didn't write revised lyrics to the IIFY theme just for this review.

In article , "Jeg7777" wrote:

You guys know I like making jokes at my own expense, that's how I keep from getting an inflated ego ;)

Thank you! Thank you!

review.

I didn't even think of that.

They needed that awesome showing on national TV, too. Now everyone know they could be a threat (If they beat the Redskins next week, the goalposts might get torn down).

I'm new here, and I just had to say this: Did anyone notice when The Fashion Club were reading their PSTAT scores, Stacy had the second highest?

I like the blooper where Daria's hand was on the art teacher's butt.

In article , [email] (MegamorphJ) wrote:

That's one of my favorites, too. It implies that since Daria also had some scenes at the art colony, she would be "on location" and just out of camera range when Jane and Allison and the windbag artist were doing their takes. Then somebody starts giggling, maybe Allison right after the artist pats her on the butt, so Daria steps into camera range and gooses the artist. I also like this one 'cause it shows Daria smiling, which you don't see very often in the "real show."

Steve Cross