I guess MS is conservative

I noticed my 12 year old cousin in the paper today she was protesting the banning of some children's books. Some books that were banned from her school library. It was "Rolling thunder hear my cry," and some Harry Potter series thingy which was banned due to the fact that it dealt with witches and wizards, imagine that. I guess Mississippi is a conservative place afterall. Ryan Denton A.K.A. ClockworkPear "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time Magazine?"-Allen Ginsberg {-_-}

Bwahahaha! How ridiculous.

"Ryan Denton" wrote in message news:[email]...

school

series

wizards,

semi-literate fundies. Use the correct term... that's not the same as "conservative", which is a larger group (which includes, but is not exclusively, semi-literate fundies)

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

Ryan Denton said:

Heh ... you get the nuts who think that:

• The supernatural is real

• Any supernatural entity other than God is necessarily evil, so

• Therefore, even "good guy" wizards in fantasy stories are evil.

Same sort of logic leads them to try to ban Dungeons and Dragons.

Harry Potter's a good series, by the way. Very well written urban fantasy.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

"Ryan Denton" wrote in message news:[email]...

the

school

series

wizards,

I've heard some groups wanted to ban "Mary Poppins", the books and the movie, for that same reason.

This seems to be a new criteria for banning books beyond the usual complaints about the usual "dirty thirty."

On 08 Feb 2000 01:45:38 GMT, [email] (Ryan Denton) wrote:

I heard about that on some wiccan site.

Seemed like a typical childrens fantasy novel to me. Do these guys intentionally ban stupidly, just to make themselves look bad?

heheh... seems pretty funny, actually, they certainly aren't intelligently protecting anyone's interest by their haphazard selection, there are a lot worse things out there they could look to than stir up witch paranoia with little biblical basis (at least if you look at the original and not the fact that King James translated a word meaning "poisoner" as "witch" and so on...)

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

I remember bringing books like Raymond Buckland's "The complete book of withcraft" to school and people thinking I was some kind of satanist, which if you've ever read the truth about satanism it isn't what you belive it is either. Ryan Denton A.K.A. ClockworkPear "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time Magazine?"-Allen Ginsberg {-_-}

someone at McDonald's thought Liz was a witch for reading Nietzsche... should see how they'd react to bringing my father's book "The Discovery of Witchcraft" by Scot which is not witchcraft but rather one of the first books in English explaining how to do magic tricks :)

as to where are Harry Potter books being banned: mostly they're being taken off the shelves or requiring "special permission" in school libraries, possibly some public ones. Not "banned" in a traditional sense, obviously.

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

On 10 Feb 2000 00:22:35 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:

That depends on what brand of satanism you're talking about.

Dagny said:

Oh no! Evil Nietzsche worshippers! Isn't he one of the demons of the Abyss? ;-)

Someone once corrupted me by sending me a book of his. :)

off

Yeah. Well, you could learn to do *real* magic by reading them, right? Fly on broomsticks ... or do you need to go to the *special* school?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

Yeah, right. The sort of "real" magic my father does. Come to think of it, it would save him a lot of work if he could disappear and reappear in, say, Ohio, and save a lot of mileage on his car. I wonder if he could still count the distance on his taxes?

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

Has Sabrina the Teenage Witch been banned from any US TV networks or newsstands yet? What about Lord of the Rings - that's full of sorcery stuff too.

The US version of Harry Potter has been changed from the original anyway. Apparently the US publishers thought American readers wouldn't understand the references to English language and culture and Americanised them. I think the only English thing left in is a mention of some kind of sweet (humbugs possibly) which escaped because the publishers didn't know it actually referred to anything. I think it's kind of sad when people are denied knowledge of other cultures like that.

-Shez.

Glenn Olson wrote in message news:[email]...

school

series

wizards,

Far from typical. The Harry Potter books are *excellent* chidren's fantasy novels. At least the one I read is. 8-)

I may be being dense, but I can't understand the route by which someone would arrive at the conclusion that the Harry Potter books should be banned. I'd like to understand, even if I didn't agree with the reasoning; but looking on from the outside, it just looks like a knee-jerk reaction. If anyone knows an URL where the thinking behind the ban is laid out, I'd love to be told.

<Cynical mode> Oh, wait a minute, is this a glimmer of light? Are these bans being made by people in elected office, seeking to stir up indignation and present themselves as the Defenders of American Wholesomeness from Limey Corruption, and Protectors of the Kids? </cynical mode>

Martin.

In article , "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

I don't think this has anything to do with Anglophobia. I think this has a lot to do with bias against anything that smacks of the occult. I fully expect that the Lord Of The Rings trilogy and the Narnia Chronicles will be next on the hit list, because both have a large element of the magical in them. The irony that both JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis were both devout Christians will most definitely escape these petty minds.

--.\\<-H--

Michelle Klein-Hass wrote:

Not to mention the fact that Lewis's Narnia books and his Out of the Silent Planet trilogy contain a allegorical Christian theme.

Anyway for some of these people, being a devout Christian doesn't count unless you're the same kind of Christian they are. If you're not, you may as well be chalking pentagrams on the floor and burning black candles in front of a ram's skull as far as they're concerned.

Mike Morton wrote in message news:[email]...

That, I have to say, is a brilliant insight, very well expressed.

In my ministry as a port chaplain I was told of some "Christian missionaries" whose elders, I was told, forbade them to enter the seafarers' mission if I, or any other Catholic pastoral worker, was in the building. Their reaction, according to some seafarers, to being asked, when they were visiting a ship, if they could tell the seafarers where to get to Mass, could have scarcely differed if they'd been asked by a seaman stropping a dagger, "Hey, is there a really hardcore Satanist group in town, and do you know where there are any unattended babies? Mwahahaha."

The fact that JRR Tolkien was one of the translators who worked on _The Jerusalem Bible_ [1] would further condemn him in the eyes of those who maintain that only the King James Version is the word of God!

Martin.

[1] See the Catholic Books pages, linked to at the URL below.

Thanks, may I put that in my sig file? :-)

Mike Morton wrote in message news:[email]...

<g>

Why, of course. But if you use my name, please add the disclaimer in my .sig! 8-)

Martin.

Martin Sylvester said:

There is no god but Bede, and King James the First was his Prophet?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

Jordan S. Bassior wrote in message news:[email]...

Do I detect a note of scepticism? ;-)

I admit that I was astonished when an Anglican colleague of mine told me that there really are people - churches, even - who take that view. I thought he was winding me up. But there's enough to make up a "King James Only" webring. <gulp> [1]

Martin.

[1] URL: http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=av1611;list

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:31:26 -0000, "Martin Sylvester" wrote:

(Snip)

That's kinda funny, actually. I've always felt that the KJV was too warped by political motivations to be trusted as the word of God.

It is, of course... even if it weren't, it seems odd that someone would prefer an archaic translation above a newer one (the NIV is good, never in your right mind buy the NRSV, it is the PC bible- more modern political motivations)... of course I think some people don't quite have it in their mind that they're all translations, they have an idea that the bible was written in King James English :) just as they don't believe Christ was Jewish. On that issue: there was a series a while back on the book of Genesis, which included both Christian and Jewish people in discussion. My aunt Ginny said she didn't want to listen to the ideas of a Jewish rabbi. My father pointed out that Christ was a Jewish rabbi-- I think she was mad at him for a while :)

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

In article , [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:

motivations)... of

I think it's more sentimentality than anything else. Most people are used to hearing the KJV versions of biblical passages than in the modern, unvarnished English of the NIV. The KJV is written in Shakespearean English, and somehow everything sounds more "epic" in that language.

--.\\<-H--

Mike Morton said:

Some fundamentalist Protestants, in all seriousness, claim that the Catholic Church is "Satanic". (It's in reality more the other way around; Satanic rituals are generally blasphemous parodies of Catholic ones).

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

I read an amazon dot com review that said the works of both lewis and tolkien contained a racist underbelly. That other ethnicitys were represented by some of the mythical characters and that said mythical characters were portrayed as being evil. One thing I've always found to be interesting is that (around here at least) the most devoutly "christian" people always seem to be the most racist (or at least close-minded) and ignorant individuals around. Ryan Denton A.K.A. ClockworkPear "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time Magazine?"-Allen Ginsberg {-_-}

Ryan Denton said:

That's not really true. What is true is that some of the mythical races from the Middle-Earth and Narnia were (very loosely) based on real nationalities, and since Middle-Earth in particular is about a war, *someone* had to wind up on the side of the "enemy".

The "Haradrim", for example, are meant to be "Moorish" equivalents. (Not negro, but North African). They wind up on the side of Mordor ... but there's no reason to think that Tolkein considered them to be inherently evil, just on the wrong side. Remember, Tolkein was a combat veteran.

I don't think the "orcs" were meant to be any race in particular. They were more the convenient "bad guy horde", needed to flesh out the armies of Mordor. The name is based on Norse mythology, and the original "orcs" were probably Finns (which Tolkeins orcs are nothing like).

And even the orcs are not represented as unrelentingly evil, merely degraded and oppressed by an evil master. I guess you could make them out to be Germans or Russians or something, but that would be massively stretching it. (*)

I'm not as familiar with Narnia, but when I read the Chronicles (20 years ago) it didn't seem all that racist to me.

(*) The Riders of Rohan are closer to the romantic mythological concept of Germans. And they're among the *good* guys! And this in a series *written during World War Two by a man who'd FOUGHT Germans in World War One!*

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

On 10 Feb 2000 11:50:01 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

I believe Orcs are standard fantasy fare, right alongside goblins, with centuries of mythological background behind their nature and motivation.

I could be wrong, though; maybe Tolkien was the one who pushed them into standard fantasy fare.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:26:39 -0600, Glenn Olson wrote:

Indeed so; according to the Clute/Grant Encyclopedia of Fantasy, under 'Goblin', "The main image today derives from J.R.R. Tolkien's 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings', by which time he had renamed them orcs. Tolkien's goblins/orcs were similar to the Nordic svarts, hideously evil creatures created by magic."

Glenn Olson said:

He was.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

I'm not sure "devout" is the word, it's more a particular type of Christian- the type who would never actually read the bible but sits around reading "Chicken Soup for the Christian Soul" or something like that... and still, they're simply using Christianity as a rationalization for their already hateful nature, Christianity doesn't cause that (although, in bad cases, does direct it...)

But I would consider "devout" the type that actually study the bible, church history, possibly some comparative religion, and actually try to lead a good life in the way that Christ instructed it.

But maybe I'm just weird.

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

"Dagny Scott" wrote in message news:[email]...

most

Christian-

reading

still,

already

cases, does

church

a good

It should be remembered that there are those who are devout who are not Christians. Many of the followers of Islam, for example, are quite devout, whether they might be fundamentalists or not. There are followers of other religions who are devout in their beliefs as well.

What I don't quite understand is how someone can be devout in whatever religion and also preach hate. Most religions at least officially endorse tolerance in their religious writings but in the real life they often use their religion as a justification for destruction. How can someone read their particular religious writings, believe devoutly, and then go out and do some of the things that these people do, or have done?

Probably, but I like you anyway.

Indeed. And many are hateful, too. Even Buddhists and- believe it or not- Baha'is (I think I've become a devil in some sects by suggesting this. At least, to Bobby.) The only reason Baha'is haven't started wars is they haven't got the chance, basically. Kinda funny like in Red Dwarf where they think this guy is God and he wants them to start a hot dog place and they have holy wars about what color their hats will be.

Because people are hateful... and, in most cases, either just don't have a clue what their religious text even says, or make rationalizations (like telling crusaders the Bible doesn't say don't kill, it says don't kill other Christians). By that, they got a very strong idea of "holy war" which was present even in World War One... and "you don't count the dead when God's on your side" (haha! place that song lyric!)

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

"The first world war boy it came and it went. The reason for fighting I never did get. But learn to except it and except it with pride, cuz ya don't count the dead when god's on your side."-Bob Dylan- One of my favs.

Ryan Denton A.K.A. ClockworkPear "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time Magazine?"-Allen Ginsberg {-_-}

Yay! And the boy wins a cigar! :)

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

On 11 Feb 2000 01:05:35 GMT, [email] (Ryan Denton) wrote:

Really? I thought it was "Onward Christian Soldiers"

Kyle, he who means well The Shane Andrews of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

On 10 Feb 2000 17:06:39 GMT, [email] (Dagny Scott) wrote:

If you have to ask...

Kyle, he who means well The Shane Andrews of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

[email] (Ryan Denton) wrote:

Feh. More PC nonsense. People read things into books that they want to read into them. If I work hard enough at it, and push it reaaaally hard, I can prove that just about anything written has racist undertones. I bet if you look at a grocery store advert long enough (and maybe huff some paint thinner) you can find racist, sexist, and elitist messages hidden in the subtext of the fruits and vegetables on sale. There's a great example of that kind of paranoia in a scene in the movie "Bowfinger," when Eddie Murphy's character wigs out over his own paranoid delusions that the movie industry is out to keep him down, even though he lives in a huge mansion.

There are two kinds of people in the world-- those who make broad, sweeping generalizations, and those who don't. ;-)

I know that there are a lot of juicy targets in the Radical Right, but I felt that I needed to defend the many folks I know who are very religious, but, strangely enough, are wonderful, tolerant people that won't get in your way. Now Pat Robertson, well, that's a whoooole other story...

FWIW, there are plenty of intolerant people of all sorts of religions all over the world. Does the Middle East ring a bell? How 'bout India and Pakistan? Both are great examples of regions in the world where small but violent fringe elements of religious groups are just as good as anyone at hating strangers based solely on their religion or their ethnic heritage.

The problem isn't the religion-- it's the people involved in the religion, or the fringe elements, to be precise. In any group of people, you will always have a fringe element that can't contain their feelings in a socially responsible way. That's why we have the Criminal Law.

It's one of those universal things.

rich.

Jake: Who do you want in an emergency? Superman, or your *damn inner child?*

In article , Michelle Klein-Hass wrote:

Actually, people have tried to ban the Narnia Chronicles. Not even the whole series, just certain books. I believe they see them as sacriligious (consequently, the books they sought to ban are the ones with the most specific Christian imagery)

In article , Ryan Denton wrote:

I won't speak of Tolkien, but Lewis' books are extremely racist and intolerant of Hindus and Moslems (the brown-skinned people in the books bear elements of both). They are clearly an inferior race to the white folks of Narnia and as much as I adore the series, some passages are grating, and would be the subject of *much discussion* were I to be reading them to a child of mine.

On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:05:30 -0800, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote: Kids? </cynical mode>

The real irony is that CS Lewis was not only a devout Christian, but most of his writing is designed to illistrate Chrisian themes and such, and didn't he write some genuinely theologic stuff? I don't know.

CS Lews wrote a lot of good stuff. Anyone ever read the Letters of Screwtape? ;)

Right.... Lewis was an atheist for a while but thenhad a major conversion to Christianity. He wrote a number of non-fiction books on Christianity, as well as his fiction works.

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

Tarvok wrote in message news:[email]...

Yes, loads. _The Problem of Pain_ [1], _Mere Christianity_ [2] and _The Four Loves_ [3] ("Quick, ban it! One of the four is erotic love!"), to name but three.

_A Grief Observed_ [4] would be on Daria's reading list, I think. And I astonished a prof by selecting _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_ [5] as my text for a seminar on, IIRC, the theology of grace. But they'd come to expect strange things from the student who chose Officer Krupke's song from West Side Story as the structure for an answer in a philosophy of ethics exam. Bah, exams are no fun if you can't be creative and take a few risks. ;-)

Yes, brilliant. And often to be found in secondhand book shops [6]. I wonder if that's banned in some school districts? ("Demonic letters! Get them out of here!")

Coming up in March is a collection of essays & other short pieces by Lewis. [7] I've not read it, so I can't say if it's any good.

The fact that I'm mentioning some of Lewis's books doesn't mean that I agree with everything in them.

Martin.

[1] http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=1&isbn=0006245676&DB=220 [2] http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=1&isbn=0006280544&DB=220 [3] http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=1&isbn=0006280897&DB=220 [4] http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=1&isbn=0571066240&DB=220 [5] http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=1&isbn=0006716652&DB=220 [6] http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=1&isbn=0006280609&DB=220 [7] http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=1&isbn=0006281575&DB=220

(Apologies to anyone who saw an earlier draft of this message. It means your news server is not honouring a valid "cancel" control message.)

Tarvok wrote in message news:[email]...

Yes, loads. _The Problem of Pain_ [1], _Mere Christianity_ [2] and _The Four Loves_ [3] ("Quick, ban it! One of the four is erotic love!"), to name but three. And I think that a profound theology runs through most of his writing (I haven't actually read his LitCrit stuff so I don't know if this holds true for that too).

_A Grief Observed_ [4] would be on Daria's reading list, I think. And I astonished a prof by selecting _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_ [5] as my text for a seminar on, IIRC, the theology of grace. But they'd come to expect strange things from the student who chose Officer Krupke's song from West Side Story as the structure for an answer in a philosophy of ethics exam. Bah, exams are no fun if you can't be creative and take a few risks. ;-)

Yes, brilliant. And often to be found in secondhand book shops [6]. I wonder if that's banned in some school districts? ("Demonic letters! Get them out of here!")

Coming up in March is a collection of essays & other short pieces by Lewis. [7] I've not read it, so I can't say if it's any good.

The fact that I'm mentioning some of Lewis's books doesn't mean that I agree with everything in them, though I can't, offhand, think of anything I'd make an issue of.

Martin.

[1] URL: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=3530&isbn=0006245676&DB=220 [2] URL: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=3530&isbn=0006280544&DB=220 [3] URL: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=3530&isbn=0006280897&DB=220 [4] URL: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=3530&isbn=0571066240&DB=220 [5] URL: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=3530&isbn=0006716652&DB=220 [6] URL: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=3530&isbn=0006280609&DB=220 [7] URL: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serdsp.asp?shop=3530&isbn=0006281575&DB=220

On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:05:30 -0800, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

Ecspecially since, as far as I can tell, the Narnia Chronicles are a total shadow of the Christian Bible.

"You must come to know me by another name in your world," Aslan

Kyle, he who means well The Shane Andrews of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

Glenn Olson said:

They also believe that if you play Dungeons and Dragons, you will be inducted into an evil satanic cult which teaches you spells as you go up in character level. REAL spells. Including ones that get you take mental control of your parents to make them buy you more D&D books.

Damn, I wish I'd known *that* one when I was a teenager! :D

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man, as we know him, is a poor creature; but he is halfway between an ape and a god and he is travelling in the right direction." (Dean William R. Inge)

In article , [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Crap! I was a gamer for several years, and this cult never contacted me! I had to buy my D&D books from the store like everyone else. Dropped a shitload of money on them too...grumble grumble...

--.\\<-H--

On 10 Feb 2000 11:38:56 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

That's not funny. I've been subjected to videos about how D&D and similar role-playing games indoctrinate you into Satanism.

Of course, I know someone who believes they can read the future in lines of Biblical text, similar to casting runes or tarot cards (Is biblomancy the right word?). Does that mean the Bible is Satanic?

My father was ex-communicated from the Church of Christ for asking that and similar questions (he is now an ordained pentecostal minister)

Kyle, he who means well The Shane Andrews of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

Down here we have a guy that comes on tv at about 2:00 in the morning on saturdays and sundays and talks about how they're gonna have bar codes inserted in peoples hands so you can tell the good from the bad on jugdement day. Which is also an argument I heard in sunday school. Ryan Denton A.K.A. ClockworkPear "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by Time Magazine?"-Allen Ginsberg {-_-}

On 12 Feb 2000 15:43:24 GMT, [email] (Ryan Denton) wrote:

The current theory is that the mark of the beast will be a "bar code" type thingy (obviously, the *really* current theory is computer chip, not bar code) implanted in your right hand that swears your allegiance to the One World Government of the Antichrist, but also allows you to buy and sell.

It's scientifically possible and it doesn't directly go against the Bible, so I can accept it as a possibility. But I don't understand why so many people see it as the "Gospel truth", pardon the pun.

Kyle, he who means well The Shane Andrews of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

I think our churches have turned socialist... or, at least, grabbed a hold of socialist ideas, even if they vote Republican :) That sounds like it would be a socialist Christian idea (the sort of person who might claim the antichrist is Bill Gates). Also my youth group that I quit decided one attained salvation by building porches, which is sort of a populist Steinbeck-y ideas (I hate Steinbeck-y ideas, but I can't make myself hate him, because he is just a damn good writer).

Besides, I don't think Revelation is a prediction, anyway. If any part of the bible can be argued to be metaphorical, it can be the part specifically described as a dream, I'd think.

Dagny

http://firefly.cc.st

"This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper." -T.S. Eliot

Daria code: Ap D+ T5 W1 Q+ Fn^Fr O+ OH m c MV- C5X F:113,201,305 BB+ FCJ -DT+ q+ fT^fD

Christianity has a lot in common with socialism. If you consider all the stuff in the Bible about putting other people above yourself, and looking after others, especially the poor and disadvantaged, then it follows that a Christian government would have a welfare state, and would also tax the rich heavily in order to help them get into Heaven more easily. Think of the parable about the guy who only worked for an hour at the end of the day getting the same full day's pay as the rest - there we see classic socialist ideas like a minimum wage, placing the employees first, etc. Socialism is basically Christianity without all that god stuff.

This is why in the UK, the Church came more and more into conflict with the right wing government we had for nearly two decades, as nearly everything Thatcher & co. did was in conflict with Christian ideals. Indeed, looking at the various religions of the world, it seems to me that the Conservatives' message of everyone putting themself first and grabbing what you can get whilst leaving the meek to their fate is compatible only with Satanism: the Nine Satanic Statements are very much in tune with the Tory ethos (apart from number nine, which just seems to be an attempt at humour). For those who don't know them, I quote them below. To my mind they are the opposite of what Christianity stands for. YMMV of course.

     1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
     2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
     3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical
        self-deceit!
     4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love
        wasted on ingrates!
     5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
     6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of
        concern for psychic vampires!
     7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better
        than, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who,
        because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development,"
        has become the most vicious animal of all!
     8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to
        physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
     9. Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has
        kept it in business all these years!

-Shez.