Phase 1 is complete!

In response to tonights Daria episode:

Woooooooooohoohoo! Wooooooooooooohoohoo! Yes yesyesyesyesyesyesyes! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No spoilers--or anything coherent, for that matter.

In article , Hikaru's Boyfriend wrote:

I agree completely.

--.\\<-H--

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:46:01 -0700, [email] (Michelle Klein-Hass) wrote:

I hate to say "me too," but I will, anyway. Me too. ;)

rich.

Helen: Bureaucracy is the price we pay for impartiality.

Jake: Jefferson!

Helen: Stalin.

What is everybody talking about? I feel stupid. Did I not watch the same 408 as everyone else?

I have no idea what this rant was about but I'll assume it was unbridled joy over a brand new episode. In which case I share your euphoria. Ha. Woo.

I'll leave it to far more enlightened minds (Hello Mike!) to supply a proper review. Instead here are my initial responses:

WARNING. Stop here if you haven't seen #408!

SPOILER........

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Here we go.....
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- I have to say that this episode met my expectations in terms of character development. It started pretty goofy but as we got into it, it became dramatic, especially the interplay between Helen and Jake. I'd say Helen never looked more human than when she said "You all hate me." Or Jake's look when he realized he hurt her. Daria's observations about her family, especially Quinn, were dead on. Speaking of Quinn I sincerely wonder if she does have those dark nights of the soul when she realizes there's nothing there.Perhaps Groped by an Angel will explore this

-Daria has certainly matured in the last four years. Her willingness to go to her mother is a indication of this.

- Even though she goes back to the grindstone, you can see the doubts that have obviously surfaced in Helen. The Psychiatrist's report was just searing.

- Jane/Tom: Ok, probably she didn't let him touch her because they were on video, but what if it's indicative of the relationship? And why didn't she tell him they were live on the Web? Not a good sign.

-The Fat Lady from Cafe Disaffecto returns. And she's got her own alter-ego!

Well, that's about it for now. I'll think of other stuff later.

Jeff M.

In article ,

It was the first sign we've seen that she realized what everyone, mainly Jake thought about her, and it wasn't all great. It's the first time we've really delved into her mind, she realizes she's not a superwoman, but she is trying which Daria points out to her, and she realizes that's not at all bad. With her actions beforehand in the ep, she definitely fit into that psychological evaluation.

We see a rare glimpse of attentiveness in Jake's role-playing of Helen, he's obviuosly not as oblivious as he's been made out to be, this may have been his only opprotunity to express his feelings of what Helen is to him and his family, and boy did he make the most out of it! He got on a roll which led to Helen's self-discovery, if you will.

This addressed their marital problems in a way. While they're still not perfect, and will probably go back to their routines, they realized what was happening with the help of the doctors evaluations of them, and won't let things get that out of hand again. They'll still have their arguments and disagreements, like all couples do, but after this I don't see a divorce or anything like that anytime in the near future.

Yep, as I read while lurking on one of the message boards, it was as if Daria was speaking to the audience when describing her and her family's quirks, even painting a not so perfect image of herself. It was as if she was saying to the audience, I know how you all perceive me and my family.

As far as Quinn, it seems not even the psychologists know what brought her to the way she is now, will we ever know? BTW, while the past life regression was funny, it seemed a bit out of place, my only nitpick with this otherwse great ep.

As usual she was the one who kept the level head and tried to help matters after the role-playing incident. In season one, she'd have probably just stayed back as Quinn did and let all the carnage unfold.

With a possible partnership looming, it'll be hard for her to tear away from her job, but you'll get to see what's really more important to her family, or job? The evaluation put some doubts in her head, we'll see where she goes from here.

A bit of foreshadowing, perhaps? Not all appears to be well in their relationship. Though I'd call this more of a misunderstanding, still misunderstandings have brought about the end of relationships before, so who knows?

She makes her annual apperance, she was previously seen in 104, 205, and 302. Other useless info, the 2nd segment was the shortest segment in the shows history at 4:59, previous was #101 2nd seg. at 5:17, and the 3rd from start to end of the credits was the longest seg. in the shows history at 9:19, previous was #104 3rd seg. at 9:12. And before you all ask, yes, I don't have a life in order to figure those facts out:-)

2nd seg. was a little slow, but otherwise a very well done show, currently I'd rank it 2nd best of the season behind #406- ILAP.

He who is done yapping now, A.J.

SPOILER

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One of the things that I like about Jake and Helen is that for all their faults they're not bad people and are trying to do better for themselves and their children. Which all parents attempt to do, I guess.

This is probably the best we've seen of Jake in my humble opinion.

I agree. How many lead characters would be willing to be that honest with themselves? I don't know of many.

Quinn, at this time more than any other, seemed like the outsider of the family. We got no insights into her character other than Daria's opinions of her and she seemed more shallow than usual, as if it were some kind of defense against everything going on.I agree with your point about the past-life trans...any shrink who can't remember to point the watch the other way should turn in his license.

Well, if they did that I don't think it would have worked as well.Daria NEEDED to take the initiative to help her family.

I think this interplay gives some insight into how Jane responds (or doesn't) to Tom.Contrast that with his conversations with Daria in ILAP. Not that it automatically means relationship- we've got to get Daria's opinions on the matter. But it does indicate that maybe whirlwind romances are not always the best after you give it some thought.

I'd say this is one of the best in a great season thus far and I hope it gets better.

Jeff M.

In article ,

I also liked how Jake came to Daria's defense ("There's nothing wrong with Daria!") when the doctors were read whisk her off to (yet another) padded room. It was kind of a mixed blessing to see this episode so close to "Of Human Bonding". jake's reaction made a lot of sense because of it, but when Daria went into her comforting speech to Helen in the parking lot, I was thinking "Wait...didn't this just happen?"

brought her to

regression

otherwse

Yeah, I agree there. What sitcom hasn't done THAT bit? (Well, a lot, but I didn't think Daria would be one that would. Oh, well.) But, when I was looking at the watch the doctor was swinging, and the initials on it, I couldn't help but think "Hey! He stole Jake's watch!". Quinn did seem more vacant than usual today, but to make up for it, we didn't have to see (or hear) the Fashion Club, Kevin, or Brittany for once. And is Trent fading into the background or what? His first appearance in several eps (by my recollection), and it wasn't even a speaking one.

Back to Quinn, though, she was at her best when playing the role of Daria. We didn't get to see Daria do the same with Quinn, though. I doubt she would've put her every effort into it. I agree with the poster who said Quinn seemed like the family outcast, especially when she walked away from the "warm family moment". Although I guess it's not unusual for 16 year olds to try to avoid those moments. Daria would've probably been repulsed by that sort of thing in the earlier seasons.

I guess we can count on seeing more of Mrs. Johannsen (that was her name, right?), since she now has her own alter-ego. How much you wanna bet she's wearing vertical stripes in her next appearance? The Rock-and-Roll Randy alterego kinda threw me for a loop, too.

The ending of this episode was interesting, coming full circle to show us that the therapy really didn't change much in the Morgendorffer scheme of things, at least for now. Very interesting episode. I've only watched it twice (I've been busy); but it's very complex, and I think I might have to watch it again to catch everything in it. it was very different from what I expected; I was prepared to see Daria giving the sarcasm treatment to touchy-feely Mr. O'Neill-like doctors as the main plot thread of the episode. This was more or less a Helen show, though. Of course, I thought "I Loathe a Parade" would be a generic filler ep, so maybe I should stop trying to predict the outcome of episodes altogether.

Anticipating next Wednesday,

--Tice Rust--

Tice Rust said:

It shows that Jake really does respect Daria. Incidentally, his earlier behavior in "Daria!", despite the slapstick ultimately result (crashing into a tree) shows that he cares very deeply for both his children.

Yes, but it was dramatically important to establish that _both_ Helen and Jake realize that Daria understands and basically approves of them.

Daria got a butt-eye view of _both_ her potential love interests :)

Daria isn't one for revealing her inner feelings to strangers. This shows common sense on her part, I think.

moments.

Probably. Daria's more comfortable with herself and with others now. But Daria _never_ would have done the past-life thing, and expected anyone intelligent to take her seriously.

I think it led to some self-awareness, especially on Helen's part.

What was interesting here was that the psychiatrists were behaving _competently_. The only truly satirical moment was at the beginning when they were disappointed that they couldn't institutionalize Daria; when they actually attempted therapy they asked cogent questions and intelligently interpreted the answers.

It would have been easy to use this ep to take cheap shots at shrinks. I was pleasantly suprised by how they handled it.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

In article ,

All attempt, not all succeed.

I have to agree there. more attntiveto the problem at hand than usual, yet enough of the traditional Jake we all know, this was his strongest ep yet.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Conventional wisdom labels Daria as the outsider usually, in this case it was a complete 360 degree flip, Quinn was actually the outsider in this, ah, irony...

I fully agree that she did the right thing by taking the iniative. I just stated he Daria of season one wouldn't have done anything about it, she's definitely growing as a character.

True. I still can't wait for the continuation of that plotline.

Agreed, the lowest I'd give any ep would be a B- only to 1 ep the rest are B and higher.

A.J.

Cheese said:

Daria's only superficially an "outsider". Where she _has_ relationships with other people, they are deep ones; she is loved and trusted. Quinn has numerous superficial connections to other people, but these are ones of pure convenience on both sides.

And, marvelously for television, it happened _gradually_. Someone interested in doing a character development analysis could probably diagram each point of change, starting with "The Esteemsters" (where she makes her first real friend) and continuing onwards.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

JMorris said:

One thing I like about Jake and Helen, compared to most sitcom parents, is that they have _real_ emotional problems which _really_ impair their lives (not just for laughs), and that DESPITE this they are basically good people.

(Incidentally, this is also why I liked the Conners on _Roseanne_).

How many comedies ever get _this_ serious about their characters, and in a non-stereotypical fashion (i.e., day-to-day behavior rather than outrageous behavior of the "Teen Drug Abuse After School Special" variety).

family.

Both by others' perception, and by her own choice. Note that Helen was willing to speak seriously to her, woman to woman ... she did _not_ treat Daria like a "little girl" in that conversation in the parking lot. Note that Jake perceives Daria as somebody trustworthy and reliable (unlike his attitude towards her in the first season, when he was randomly suspecting her of being a drug addict). Note that Daria was the only one who even _semi_ understood Quinn. Note how everyone regarded Quinn (as an intruder) when she came out to join them.

The irony here is that Quinn has largely done this to herself. She behaves irresponsibly and publicly denies any relationship to her own family in order to gain status with the Fashion Club, three girls of which one (Sandi) hates her guts, a second (Tiffany) is a dimwitted backbiter, and the third (Staci) likes her without even remotely understanding her. In doing so, she has lost status with her family, people who genuinely love and care for her ... and at least _try_ to understand her.

I think, from Quinn's expression at the end (and in some other eps), that Quinn is starting to realize that she's made a bad bargain.

It's pretty close to what Daria said ... it's a defense against the hollowness of her own life. Which is more hollow than that of any other member of her family ... Helen has her work, and truly loves and is proud of her family; Jake has his business and feels safe within his family; Daria has not only her family but also real friends whom she cares for. Quinn really doesn't have anything, but a status so fragile that one or two mistakes could destroy it in an instant (as we've seen in earlier episodes), held amongst people whom (aside possibly for Stacy) don't really like her at all.

I don't think that Quinn was truly hypnotized. I think that she was desperate for attention ... that it really bothered her that her life was so boring that it put the other therapist to sleep. So she intruded on someone else's therapy and invented a fantasy life on the spot. Her "Cleopatra" was simply herself with a different name.

More the tone than her decision not to make love to him ... remember, _Jane_ knew that the camera was watching her.

This also showed Jane's tendency not to think things through beforehand ... it obviously hadn't occurred to her that one drawback of setting up the camera was that SHE might want some privacy too ... and a minor hypocrisy ... obviously, Jane does NOT really believe in full exposure!

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

Cheese said:

I also think that her boss may be a bit less attractive to her, now that she realizes that he _wants_ her to be neurotically driven and to neglect other people's feelings. The "Helen" he admires is one whom (emotionally) she's not entirely happy with.

I think it's going to start coming out. Basically, I think that Quinn is copying what _she_ understands Helen's behavior to be. She's trying to be successful at her "career" ... but since a 15-year-old girl can't hold a responsible professional position, the "career" she's chosen is "being popular."

Incidentally, Daria has modelled some of her own behavior on Helen, too ... on a different side of Helen's personality. Daria has absorbed Helen's belief that intelligence, determination, and responsibility are paramount. If you notice, Daria may mock herself, but she does well at school and behaves in a highly moral fashion.

One difference between the two is that Daria is the _elder_ daughter, and was thus expected to be more responsible at any given time than Quinn was. Also, she was exposed to Helen when Helen's own position was probably less responsible, which would translate in practice to more time spent at home with her family. Quinn has only seen Helen as a driven executive.

(There is _strong_ evidence in the show that Helen has a playful and affectionate side; indeed that this is what originally attracted Jake to her).

It shows that Quinn, even subconsciously, is trying to live up to the expectations of others and "show off" her status. "Past life regression" is a common popular superstition, and Quinn was imagining herself as Cleopatra (and, of course, totally misunderstanding the character).

Yep. Well remember, Daria probably understands both herself and her mother a bit better now than she did a year and a half (her time) ago.

knows?

It's obvious that Jane didn't let Tom touch her because she didn't want him to start making out with her in front of a potentially large audience (which remember, she had good reason to believe included her best friend). [Jane likes to shock, but she's not _that_ much of an exhibitionist]. For the sake of Jane-with-Tom-shippers (if there are any) this indicates that they have some sort of physical relationship, but I think that this was implied anyway.

What's more interesting is the rather bossy way that Jane dealt with Tom's attempt (and remember, he wasn't attempting all that much, physically speaking). There has been indications before that Jane tends not to take Tom's feelings into account; this is another one. (Which is probably what REALLY made him mad about the violation of privacy ... that Jane thought her "art" was important enough to justify what amounted to lying by omission to him).

It's not surprising that Jane has trouble dealing with Tom ... the probability is that he's the first real boyfriend she's had, and before Jane met Daria, the evidence is that Jane never really had any _friends_, period. Her only real society growing up was presumably Trent, and Trent is the sort of person you sometimes have to hit over the head with a piece of reality to get his attention.

Let's see how Jane handles Tom in the future.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

SPOILER........

Good one.

One thing we find out is that Daria is the only "normal" one in the family. Of course we all already knew that didn't we?

And the greatest irony of all is that while Helen is tearing herself apart trying to be supermom, thinking that to be the most important trait, the firm is interested only interested in her work addiction. If she hadn't been such a drivern person she wouldn't have gotten the promotion. She has Jake to thank for that: If he had been better at hiding his feelings they might never have found out what a good candidate Helen was.

There might be opportunity for further character development in this area. Will Helen come to a point where she decides it isn't worth it?

I was a little disappointed in the misdirected hypnotism bit though. That's really cliched. Although I guess the past-life bit might have been worth it. You do have to wonder about past lives though. How many people alive today have been Cleopatra or Marie Antoinette in a past life? Must have been really crowded in those bodies.

In case anyone was thinking that Jake and Helen were heading toward divorce court, I think we can pretty well disabuse ourselves of that idea. It's obvious they really do care for each other even if they don't always show it. There's nothing that says that marriage has to be nauseatingly sweet all the time.

Ms. Johansen is becoming a regular character. In her case I'm afraid that vertical stripes aren't going to help.

wrote:

Agreed.

I thought Quinn looked really cute during her past life phase. Other than that it didn't have all that much to do with the story.

This also puts the kibbosh on the Eric/Helen coupling we were speculating on at the end of the first half of the season. Eric seemed more interested in Helen for the work she can get out of her.

Well we've seen her a couple times already, so yeah I'll guess she'll be around.

Jeff M.

"JMorris830" wrote in message news:[email]...

Also agreed.

than

But might it not have been interesting if the doctor ("Excuse me, I hear an accent") had been able to hypnotize Daria, to see what she said under hypnosis?

In article , "Jeg7777" wrote:

True. Watch her reaction to the doctor when he asks if she's ever been hyponitized, we get that wide eyed reaction, like she is hiding somehing that she wants no one to know about. Any clue to what it could be, regarding Tom and Jane, perhaps?

A.J.

In article , wrote:

I'd say she's hiding everything. Her true feelings about herself, her family and friends, love, writing, all of it. Her 'Wall' is still high.

On Sun, 02 Jul 2000 04:36:24 GMT, [email] wrote:

Taking up the fight against over-analyzation yet again:

Could it be, perhaps, that hypotism is kinda primitive in her mind and she was shocked that a doctor she was taking semi-seriously would suggest it? Or at the very least it caught her off guard?

Kyl� The Jeff Huson of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

I agree with Kyle insofar as I don't think Daria's reaction was necessarily an indication of her having something to hide (if it was re: Tom/Jane why would it matter if she told it to some guy she doesn't even know?). I mean come on, how often does one get asked to be subjected to hypnosis? Even in that kind of setting (which it's amazing Daria let herself get into in the first place, and shows she really does love her mom since she's willing to sit there and talk to some shrink), I don't know that she'd anticipated that. And the eye-widening could just be the non-verbal equivalent of "I can't believe this guy!" because she just finished telling him all this revealing stuff about her family as well as herself, and now he wants to HYPNOTIZE her? I agree that Daria would be more than a little skeptical about results yielded from a session of hypnosis, especially those ones were they make you "regress" back into your childhood and relive painful memories, which of course will sometimes turn up memories of things like child abuse which may or may not have actually happened, or even past lives, like with Quinn (which was a bit silly but it IS a cartoon so they can get away with that sort of thing easier). She's probably rolled her eyes at stuff like that for years on shows like "Sick Sad World."

As for overanalysis, though, I certainly disagree. The way I see it, it's just a case of one opinion versus another. One view is no more analytical than the other, we're just reading different things into a character's reaction, which makes for some interesting discussion. It's as though I were to say to you, "You look sad, what's wrong?" and you replied, "Nothing, I'm just tired." Was I being overanalytical in my judgement of your emotional state? No, I just misjudged the meaning of your facial expression (presuming you're not lying of course).

Oh, hi, if anybody remembers me. I'm back now that there's new episodes. Be proud of me, I remembered to leave the spoiler space even in spite of having consumed beer this evening.

In article ,

Speaking on over-anything about the show, who is talking about a cartoon characters breast size? (see "Movie" thread):-)

Analyzing and discussing the show are part of why we like it so much. We tend to over-analyze (which I,[and many others probably] am guilty of), because the show is written well enough in that they can take you many different possible directions if they wanted to with one plot point. Discussing the outcome of the current plotlines is done on all shows and is part of the enjoyment of the show for many of us, besides if we didn't over-analyze or scrutinize, what would we discuss about the show? :-)

Actually, the post before yours may be more accurate. That she's afraid to reveal any feelings whatsoever. She doesn't want her "wall" to come down at all, she doesn't want her feelings revealed to anyone. Then again maybe you're right, maybe I am, maybe none of us are, but speculating is part of the enjoyment of the show for me and probably most of us:-)

I'm not jumping on you or anyone else, I just wanted to get that out in the open.

Going back to his secret lair, A.J.

I agree. It's also fun to see how much we got right and what we didn't see coming.

Which may be something she'll have to work on if she's going to embark on a relationship. But I thought her willingness to open up with Helen in this episode and in Partner's Complaint indicates she's working on it. I hope we see more of this in the upcoming eps.

Jeff M.

Jeg said:

Yes, it was a shame that he couldn't, especially since Daria had obviously decided to trust him (note that her answer to him was non-sarcastic, and that she actually began trying to let herself be hypnotized).

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

R. K. Henry said:

She is certainly the one most aware of and in control of her own emotions.

I think that this may plant a seed leading Helen to re-evaluate her relationship to her firm, incidentally.

Well, she might have gotten it anyway. Eric has obviously always thought very highly of her, quite aside from any more personal feelings he may have towards her.

I could see this happening.

Yes ... for some reason ordinary peasants and farm-wives (90-99% of the human race in pre-modern times) don't seem to ever be reincarnated as flaky New Agers ;-)

Yeah, I think that Jake and Helen are staying married :)

I wonder if she's somebody's mom? Andrea's, maybe?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

yesyesyesyesyesyesyes!

Alright, you coaxed me into replying (and I really don't know how enlightened I am <chuckle>)

But overall, I've agreed with just about every opinion I've seen on the episode - It was very solid. I'll save the specifics for sometime later.

Incidentially, I did a little statistical study on the grades I've given for the last three season (I didn't include S1 because some of those grades were overly biased, meaning after way more than two viewings). What I found is that after eight episodes, season four is by far my highest rated season of the last three (part of that was due to a there being a stinker in the first half of S2 and S3). This confirms what I've suspected - that S4 seems to me to be an improvement (so far) on S2 and S3.

Mike Quinn [email]

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J. Morris said:

I agree.

That was truly sad. Helen really loves her family ... the thought that they really hate her was incredibly painful. And Jake really loves Helen, despite his incoherence.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

JMorris said:

Yep.

I think so. She's a smart girl. I think she has some real problems, both philosophical and perhaps psychological.

Note that she denied being Daria's sister to the psychologist, _who knew the truth_. That was not a sane thing to do: in context it could not possibly improve her status with him.

I suspect that Quinn is going to reach a crisis point involving a conflict between her basic morals and the expectations of the many guys she dates, given that she's getting older.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

Hikaru's Boyfriend wrote:

(*ahem*...btw, welcome to the newsgroup...your fanfic "A Day in the Life of Stacy" is my alltime fave fanfic...I adore it so)

*giggle* I will have to state that this is my alltime fave "Daria" ep to date. I loved it. Absolutely loved it. I cannot wait to get upstairs and watch my recording of it again. It is so brill. So beyond brill. Like, totally awesome to the max! Like, it's just as awesome as like, the Galleria! *wink*

(hey, gotta keep up my membership to the Valley Girls Society *somehow*...*smile*)

Well, of course not. But then again, it's cool to not be completely coherent at all times.

*grin*

LI (who absofrickinlutely loved this ep to pieces)